Jon Venables

[Pete]

It looks like the internet has named, shamed and shared photographs of Jon Venables. I've seen the photographs (which I'm not going to post for obvious reasons) and they all show a man that I'm convinced is him...and it seems to be backed up by reports that he's now demanding plastic surgery to save him from vigilante attacks.

Personally, I don't think it's right to share his new identity and those who do should be punished heavily. Who the hell do these people think they are? riding roughshod over our laws because they think they know better and are working in the "public interest". It's nothing more than mob justice.

I watched a documentary on James Bulgers death a few weeks ago and while the crime was heinous, a few other things disturbed me. One was the way we collectively demanded the blood of ten year old children, manifesting itself in an angry mob demanding justice and attacking their prison vans. I also didn't like the way they were tried as adults and named after the trial. What good did this naming do? Has it protected anyone? All it's done has cost us millions protecting their identities and destroyed any hope of any real rehabilitation. There's also the opportunism...by the press who sold copies of their papers by stoking the flames and politicians who played to the same crowd by trying to undermine our judiciary and demanding longer sentences.
It's not just me who thinks there was something wrong with the trial and aftermath as other sources, including the European court of human rights, have slammed certain aspects of it.

One explanation for the emotional response to this case was that we were so surprised that people so young could be so cruel to other youngsters. Our society had disturbing cracks and had obviously failed if things like this were allowed to happen. You can turn it around and look at the way society reacted to the children who did this...isn't that also evidence of failure? In fact, you could say it was worse as the people reacting in the latter instance are adults who are supposed to be more developed, civilised and rational. The leaders of our society.

In my opinion, their identities should've remained a secret, giving them a chance of living a normal life after their sentence. Knowing that your face will be recognised after you have been released, what sort of effect will that have on your mind? Especially a child's one that hasn't even developed.
People point to the crimes Venables committed after he was released as evidence that he should have been locked away for longer and that some people are just born evil. Well why hasn't Robert Thomson been in the News for reoffending if people are just born bad?
To me, any ten year old child is a blank page and can develop into anything given the right guidance. I don't think the two boys were given that chance and I wonder how Venables mind would work if he had been.

[Scouse Hibee]

It looks like the internet has named, shamed and shared photographs of Jon Venables. I've seen the photographs (which I'm not going to post for obvious reasons) and they all show a man that I'm convinced is him...and it seems to be backed up by reports that he's now demanding plastic surgery to save him from vigilante attacks.

Personally, I don't think it's right to share his new identity and those who do should be punished heavily. Who the hell do these people think they are? riding roughshod over our laws because they think they know better and are working in the "public interest". It's nothing more than mob justice.

I watched a documentary on James Bulgers death a few weeks ago and while the crime was heinous, a few other things disturbed me. One was the way we collectively demanded the blood of ten year old children, manifesting itself in an angry mob demanding justice and attacking their prison vans. I also didn't like the way they were tried as adults and named after the trial. What good did this naming do? Has it protected anyone? All it's done has cost us millions protecting their identities and destroyed any hope of any real rehabilitation. There's also the opportunism...by the press who sold copies of their papers by stoking the flames and politicians who played to the same crowd by trying to undermine our judiciary and demanding longer sentences.
It's not just me who thinks there was something wrong with the trial and aftermath as other sources, including the European court of human rights, have slammed certain aspects of it.

One explanation for the emotional response to this case was that we were so surprised that people so young could be so cruel to other youngsters. Our society had disturbing cracks and had obviously failed if things like this were allowed to happen. You can turn it around and look at the way society reacted to the children who did this...isn't that also evidence of failure? In fact, you could say it was worse as the people reacting in the latter instance are adults who are supposed to be more developed, civilised and rational. The leaders of our society.

In my opinion, their identities should've remained a secret, giving them a chance of living a normal life after their sentence. Knowing that your face will be recognised after you have been released, what sort of effect will that have on your mind? Especially a child's one that hasn't even developed.
People point to the crimes Venables committed after he was released as evidence that he should have been locked away for longer and that some people are just born evil. Well why hasn't Robert Thomson been in the News for reoffending if people are just born bad?
To me, any ten year old child is a blank page and can develop into anything given the right guidance. I don't think the two boys were given that chance and I wonder how Venables mind would work if he had been.

**** him, what chance was James Bulger given?
Deserves everything he gets, I would out him in a minute too if I discovered him in my community.

[One Day Soon]

It looks like the internet has named, shamed and shared photographs of Jon Venables. I've seen the photographs (which I'm not going to post for obvious reasons) and they all show a man that I'm convinced is him...and it seems to be backed up by reports that he's now demanding plastic surgery to save him from vigilante attacks.

Personally, I don't think it's right to share his new identity and those who do should be punished heavily. Who the hell do these people think they are? riding roughshod over our laws because they think they know better and are working in the "public interest". It's nothing more than mob justice.

I watched a documentary on James Bulgers death a few weeks ago and while the crime was heinous, a few other things disturbed me. One was the way we collectively demanded the blood of ten year old children, manifesting itself in an angry mob demanding justice and attacking their prison vans. I also didn't like the way they were tried as adults and named after the trial. What good did this naming do? Has it protected anyone? All it's done has cost us millions protecting their identities and destroyed any hope of any real rehabilitation. There's also the opportunism...by the press who sold copies of their papers by stoking the flames and politicians who played to the same crowd by trying to undermine our judiciary and demanding longer sentences.
It's not just me who thinks there was something wrong with the trial and aftermath as other sources, including the European court of human rights, have slammed certain aspects of it.

One explanation for the emotional response to this case was that we were so surprised that people so young could be so cruel to other youngsters. Our society had disturbing cracks and had obviously failed if things like this were allowed to happen. You can turn it around and look at the way society reacted to the children who did this...isn't that also evidence of failure? In fact, you could say it was worse as the people reacting in the latter instance are adults who are supposed to be more developed, civilised and rational. The leaders of our society.

In my opinion, their identities should've remained a secret, giving them a chance of living a normal life after their sentence. Knowing that your face will be recognised after you have been released, what sort of effect will that have on your mind? Especially a child's one that hasn't even developed.
People point to the crimes Venables committed after he was released as evidence that he should have been locked away for longer and that some people are just born evil. Well why hasn't Robert Thomson been in the News for reoffending if people are just born bad?
To me, any ten year old child is a blank page and can develop into anything given the right guidance. I don't think the two boys were given that chance and I wonder how Venables mind would work if he had been.


Thoughtful and thought provoking post. Not sure I agree with all of it, I'll need to reflect on that, but refreshing to read something on .net that steps back from the smoke and cannon fire a bit to try and see the bigger picture.

I can't abide mob rule in any context. Once you accept it for a 'good' reason you've opened the door to it for any reason because a mob is accountable only to itself. So the boundary between lynch mobs stringing up black people in the American South, targeting Jews in Nazi Germany or delivering 'community justice' in the UK today is an extremely thin one - no-one has sanctioned the mob's actions except the mob itself.

At one stage in my career I worked closely with the police and I remember having a conversation with an experienced senior officer about their work and strategic policy on a variety of law and order related challenges. He stopped the discussion to ask me to reflect on the fact that no matter what they wanted to do, however much they or others may wish for the police to take any action in any circumstance, they could rightly only police by consent. His words were something like "Think about how few of us there are and think about where our authority is derived from. If the public, or just significant numbers of the public, decided not to accept police authority for any reason there would be literally nothing we could do about it. A police force in a democracy isn't really a physical force, its a consented concept. Once it isn't a consented concept, it's nothing at all." I've never like mobs anyway but this certainly reinforced it for me.

In any number of different ways we are generally a baw's hair away from pretty barbaric behaviour to a lesser or greater extent. Consider the immediately selfish behaviour that kicked in during the recent extreme snow when people's 'survival instinct' kicked in and shops were cleared of milk and bread by hoarders regardless of the consequences for others. A minor point perhaps but it illustrates that people will default to basic personal survival very swiftly.

Maybe that's what tests us as a society, the quality of our mercy. He shouldn't live a cushy life in any respect, he has horrible crimes and sins to atone for. But he also shouldn't be the plaything victim of people more powerful than him for no reason other than they want to do it and lack the constraint. Isn't that behaviour exactly what he was punished for doing to Jamie Bulger?

Very, very hard to have sympathy with Venables though.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It looks like the internet has named, shamed and shared photographs of Jon Venables. I've seen the photographs (which I'm not going to post for obvious reasons) and they all show a man that I'm convinced is him...and it seems to be backed up by reports that he's now demanding plastic surgery to save him from vigilante attacks.

Personally, I don't think it's right to share his new identity and those who do should be punished heavily. Who the hell do these people think they are? riding roughshod over our laws because they think they know better and are working in the "public interest". It's nothing more than mob justice.

I watched a documentary on James Bulgers death a few weeks ago and while the crime was heinous, a few other things disturbed me. One was the way we collectively demanded the blood of ten year old children, manifesting itself in an angry mob demanding justice and attacking their prison vans. I also didn't like the way they were tried as adults and named after the trial. What good did this naming do? Has it protected anyone? All it's done has cost us millions protecting their identities and destroyed any hope of any real rehabilitation. There's also the opportunism...by the press who sold copies of their papers by stoking the flames and politicians who played to the same crowd by trying to undermine our judiciary and demanding longer sentences.
It's not just me who thinks there was something wrong with the trial and aftermath as other sources, including the European court of human rights, have slammed certain aspects of it.

One explanation for the emotional response to this case was that we were so surprised that people so young could be so cruel to other youngsters. Our society had disturbing cracks and had obviously failed if things like this were allowed to happen. You can turn it around and look at the way society reacted to the children who did this...isn't that also evidence of failure? In fact, you could say it was worse as the people reacting in the latter instance are adults who are supposed to be more developed, civilised and rational. The leaders of our society.

In my opinion, their identities should've remained a secret, giving them a chance of living a normal life after their sentence. Knowing that your face will be recognised after you have been released, what sort of effect will that have on your mind? Especially a child's one that hasn't even developed.
People point to the crimes Venables committed after he was released as evidence that he should have been locked away for longer and that some people are just born evil. Well why hasn't Robert Thomson been in the News for reoffending if people are just born bad?
To me, any ten year old child is a blank page and can develop into anything given the right guidance. I don't think the two boys were given that chance and I wonder how Venables mind would work if he had been.

Interesting post, amd agree about the mob rule thing - a veey dangerous slope to start down, as i argued on the shaun woodburn thread.

I dont believe venables or thonson were born bad, but something horriffic and probably tragic happened in their young lives that turned them into extremely sadistic and dangerous wee boys- probably some pretty horrific abuse that they suffered.

However, that doesnt change the fact that they did what they did, and they needed to be removed from society. His subsequent actions would suggest to me that he is warped in the head beyond all repair (what child wouldnt be after what he did, and was then put through, saying nothing of whatever abuse he suffered to turn him into a psycho).

He is probably as much a victim in all this as anyone, but he kidnapped and tortured a toddler ffs, and as sad as his backstory may be, that cannot be ignored and no risk, howeever miniscule, of him harming any child again is acceptable.

It is pretty inconceiveable to me that he is not dangerous, and i would be furious if i found out he lived in my community.

Its a a horrible, sad tale all around, but jamie bulger or his family dont get to start over, and venables should, imo never have been released in the first place - i just dont believe someone so badly wired to do that in the first place can be fixed.

Hiwever there was a really thought provoking drama on channel 4 a few years back called Boy A (i think) that seemed loosely based on thomson and showed a young boy trying to rebuild his life - was very good. Was it not widely accepted that thomson was manipulated and led along by venables?

[snooky]

A very touchy subject indeed.
Some people are just born bad and, IMO, society is better off without them. Some are 'savable'.
The problem is knowing which is which.
Given his recent misdemeanors, I would probably think Venables is in the former category.

[One Day Soon]

A very touchy subject indeed.
Some people are just born bad and, IMO, society is better off without them. Some are 'savable'.
The problem is knowing which is which.
Given his recent misdemeanors, I would probably think Venables is in the former category.

Wouldn't necessarily disagree with that. I just think the decisions all need to be taken by the bodies we delegate power to for precisely these reasons rather than individuals or groups taking things into their own hands.

Whether such bodies are too liberally lily-livered on sentencing, constraints, post-penalty life orders etc is another matter...

[heretoday]

Personally,I'd have locked up his parents.

[lyonhibs]

They brutally beat up a 2 year old then tied him to train tracks. I struggle to concoct a more depraved crime.

**** him. Him and Robert Thompson should never have breathed free air again. If he ends up deid in a ditch somewhere, I'll be shedding no tears.

[One Day Soon]

They brutally beat up a 2 year old then tied him to train tracks. I struggle to concoct a more depraved crime.

**** him. Him and Robert Thompson should never have breathed free air again. If he ends up deid in a ditch somewhere, I'll be shedding no tears.


Raises another interesting and challenging question. Do people believe there is such a thing as evil?

I don't mean brought up or treated in such a way as to make turn you to learned evil behaviour. I mean just intrinsically or inherently evil.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Raises another interesting and challenging question. Do people believe there is such a thing as evil?

I don't mean brought up or treated in such a way as to make turn you to learned evil behaviour. I mean just intrinsically or inherently evil.

I suppose it depends on what is meant by evil. History shows us that fairly normal people habe the capacity to do great acts of kindness or terror, given the right or wrong external factors.

I believe there are people born who are probably, literally not right in the head, but generally i would err towards nurture, not nature.

[beensaidbefore]

A very touchy subject indeed.
Some people are just born bad and, IMO, society is better off without them. Some are 'savable'.
The problem is knowing which is which.
Given his recent misdemeanors, I would probably think Venables is in the former category.

I'm struggling with the bit, 'born bad'. The influence of early years on who you become as a person can't be overlooked. Separate issue, but that is the worry with kids playing 18 rated games like gta and cod.

We are like sponges and absorb whatever is around us, good and bad.

[beensaidbefore]

Raises another interesting and challenging question. Do people believe there is such a thing as evil?

I don't mean brought up or treated in such a way as to make turn you to learned evil behaviour. I mean just intrinsically or inherently evil.

I don't believe people are born evil,but could be schooled/coached/abused in such a way they can. Look at the acid attacks for example. That's a pretty evil thing to do imo.

[Pretty Boy]

It's difficult to give a black and white answer to a case with so many grey areas. The crime and the public and media reaction to it both disturb me.

Their crime was abhorrent but then I find calls for 10 year old children to be hung abhorrent as well even allowing for the natural instinct that is revenge. I think they knew what they were doing was wrong, I question if they understood the consequences and the gravity.

I could think about it and ramble about it for hours and still be conflicted in my own head. I believe in rehabilitation but I also believe some people can't or won't be rehabilitated. I believe in forgiveness but struggle to put that into practice for far more trivial matters in my own life. I realise those boys had pretty grim childhoods themselves but then I think of them subjecting a 2 year old to a prolonged and depraved attack and the idea of revenge becomes logical again whilst any lingering sympathy goes.

Fwiw I don't believe anyone is born evil but I think the seeds can be sown from a very young age.

[EH6 Hibby]

There’s nothing to say that Robert Thompson is not at this moment in prison for some horrible crime, the difference between the two is that Venable’s identity was compromised before he went to prison on the indecent images charge, i think the images were found when they were changing his identity for the second time. By that time, the internet did it’s stuff and photo’s of what he looks like now were widely shared.

As for what happened back at the trial, I now think how it was dealt with was wrong. I honestly don’t know how it should have been dealt with though, it’s such a difficult case.

What does stick with me, is something I read on here, someone posted a link to a guardian article I think it was, it was about the baby P case, the acticle asked the question, when do we stop feeling sorry for a child and start treating them like criminals who need to be locked up. It argued that given baby P’s home life and upbringing, had he not died, the chances are he would have turned into a violent criminal because that was the only life he knew. When does a child stop becoming a victim?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

There’s nothing to say that Robert Thompson is not at this moment in prison for some horrible crime, the difference between the two is that Venable’s identity was compromised before he went to prison on the indecent images charge, i think the images were found when they were changing his identity for the second time. By that time, the internet did it’s stuff and photo’s of what he looks like now were widely shared.

As for what happened back at the trial, I now think how it was dealt with was wrong. I honestly don’t know how it should have been dealt with though, it’s such a difficult case.

What does stick with me, is something I read on here, someone posted a link to a guardian article I think it was, it was about the baby P case, the acticle asked the question, when do we stop feeling sorry for a child and start treating them like criminals who need to be locked up. It argued that given baby P’s home life and upbringing, had he not died, the chances are he would have turned into a violent criminal because that was the only life he knew. When does a child stop becoming a victim?

Your Baby P point is a real poser... very good post.

[murray26]

Let’s get one thing right.. Venables and Thompson did not get punished for there crime.. 7/8 in a cushy children’s home with all the mod cons and luxuries a lot of kids could only dream about.. it’s James parents/ family that received the life sentences.. it’s them I feel for..

[Sir David Gray]

**** him, what chance was James Bulger given?
Deserves everything he gets, I would out him in a minute too if I discovered him in my community.

:top marks Totally agree.

James Bulger was subjected to one of the most depraved and evil attacks that I have ever had the misfortune of reading about.

The injuries he sustained are barely comprehensible if you had heard that adults had been responsible. The fact that two children were the culprits almost defies belief.

He is a waste of space who will never amount to anything. He does not deserve to live amongst decent, law abiding people.

[lord bunberry]

I find myself torn on issues like this. I agree with what Pete says in the op, but I also find it hard to have any compassion for them. Society is a real mess for some people, and children born into that are not evil, they are victims. It’s hard to know where to draw the line when the victims start repeating the crimes of their parents.

[Colr]

It looks like the internet has named, shamed and shared photographs of Jon Venables. I've seen the photographs (which I'm not going to post for obvious reasons) and they all show a man that I'm convinced is him...and it seems to be backed up by reports that he's now demanding plastic surgery to save him from vigilante attacks.

Personally, I don't think it's right to share his new identity and those who do should be punished heavily. Who the hell do these people think they are? riding roughshod over our laws because they think they know better and are working in the "public interest". It's nothing more than mob justice.

I watched a documentary on James Bulgers death a few weeks ago and while the crime was heinous, a few other things disturbed me. One was the way we collectively demanded the blood of ten year old children, manifesting itself in an angry mob demanding justice and attacking their prison vans. I also didn't like the way they were tried as adults and named after the trial. What good did this naming do? Has it protected anyone? All it's done has cost us millions protecting their identities and destroyed any hope of any real rehabilitation. There's also the opportunism...by the press who sold copies of their papers by stoking the flames and politicians who played to the same crowd by trying to undermine our judiciary and demanding longer sentences.
It's not just me who thinks there was something wrong with the trial and aftermath as other sources, including the European court of human rights, have slammed certain aspects of it.

One explanation for the emotional response to this case was that we were so surprised that people so young could be so cruel to other youngsters. Our society had disturbing cracks and had obviously failed if things like this were allowed to happen. You can turn it around and look at the way society reacted to the children who did this...isn't that also evidence of failure? In fact, you could say it was worse as the people reacting in the latter instance are adults who are supposed to be more developed, civilised and rational. The leaders of our society.

In my opinion, their identities should've remained a secret, giving them a chance of living a normal life after their sentence. Knowing that your face will be recognised after you have been released, what sort of effect will that have on your mind? Especially a child's one that hasn't even developed.
People point to the crimes Venables committed after he was released as evidence that he should have been locked away for longer and that some people are just born evil. Well why hasn't Robert Thomson been in the News for reoffending if people are just born bad?
To me, any ten year old child is a blank page and can develop into anything given the right guidance. I don't think the two boys were given that chance and I wonder how Venables mind would work if he had been.

I recall an article in one of the broadsheet comparing the reaction to this crime with a very similar one in the late Victorian era were the coverage and mood was more centred around problems in society and what could be done to address such delinquancy rather than a call for blood letting.

[Pete]

I recall an article in one of the broadsheet comparing the reaction to this crime with a very similar one in the late Victorian era were the coverage and mood was more centred around problems in society and what could be done to address such delinquancy rather than a call for blood letting.

While today's vigilantism and outrage may be born of things like soft punishment and a perception that the offenders are treated better than the victims, I cant help thinking that it's people trying to make it about themselves. It's become so easy in today's world to become one of those people who is extremely angry about things that have nothing to do with them and I often find myself asking "who are you doing this for". Take those paedophile hunters for example...with the best of intentions, they trap individuals and present the evidence to the police so why the need for the 40 minutes of YouTube footage? As others have said, this is an extra layer of justice that is totally without boundaries. I don't know if anyone has seen the recent Tranent footage but it turned into a rabble of obnoxious, aggressive kids and was spread by those who were twisting it, suggesting that the police were in the wrong and shouldn't be respected or obeyed. It's an interesting contrast and probably tells you a lot about the societies in question.

[Pete]

Raises another interesting and challenging question. Do people believe there is such a thing as evil?

I don't mean brought up or treated in such a way as to make turn you to learned evil behaviour. I mean just intrinsically or inherently evil.


I suppose it depends on what is meant by evil. History shows us that fairly normal people habe the capacity to do great acts of kindness or terror, given the right or wrong external factors.

I believe there are people born who are probably, literally not right in the head, but generally i would err towards nurture, not nature.

I think evil has to exist. While I believe that many perpetrators are conduits who are dealing with feelings of hurt and injustice in their own way due to lack of help/support, they can't all fall into that category.

As hinted at earlier, maybe the potential to commit the most evil of acts is in us all somewhere, buried beneath years of social conditioning. I still maintain that ten year old boys are a lot more susceptible to "correction" than adults are.

[Steve-O]

Let’s get one thing right.. Venables and Thompson did not get punished for there crime.. 7/8 in a cushy children’s home with all the mod cons and luxuries a lot of kids could only dream about.. it’s James parents/ family that received the life sentences.. it’s them I feel for..

Sorry but I doubt many kids dream of being put in a home, having committed a murder, away from their family and friends, and then having to live the rest of their lives looking over their shoulder, and also living with what they've done for the rest of their days. 8 years or whatever it was is a lot when you are a kid and they remain, I believe, subject to recall to prison for the rest of their days.

As for the OP, I largely agree. 25 years on and the media reaction remains as vitriolic as ever with the poor mother being wheeled out by the media every time there is mention of the crime for any reason. She is being re-victimised every time this happens. On occasion, I suppose she's doing it to herself, perhaps without realising. Alas, the media don't care, despite their attempts to appear that they do.

Nobody is born evil, but if they are born into a chaotic home environment, then the writing can be on the wall very early if there is no intervention. It appears that has been the case here, but there seems to have been very little written about their lives prior to the murder? I wonder if that is deliberate on the part of the tabloid media as it might actually provide some context and detract from their 'EVIL MONSTERS' narrative. If anyone has any information on their home life, I'd be quite interested to see it.

Of course, whatever happened to them doesn't excuse what happened. I have a 2 year old myself now and something like that happening to her simply doesn't bear thinking about. However, I can't imagine spending the subsequent 25 years constantly thinking about the offenders and being up in arms for every little thing they do. It's really not worth it! Hard to imagine getting over something like that of course, but please don't mistake not being constantly furious at the offenders for quarter of a century as getting over it.

Interesting point about the outrage of some folk, and what their actual true intention is regarding the outrage? Is it really them just trying to distance themselves from being capable of such an act? Never ceases to amaze me the amount of people who have no relationship to the victim or the offender who claim they are themselves prepared to literally kill the offenders?! Bonkers, IMO.

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't believe there is such a thing as evil, it's just a name for one end of the spectrum of human behaviour. However I do believe that the recipe for that what we become has varying amounts of different ingredients including not only outside influences like our home environment and education but also that what we bring to the world ourselves through our genetic make-up. Our personalities depend on how those ingredients are mixed together.

[calumhibee1]

While today's vigilantism and outrage may be born of things like soft punishment and a perception that the offenders are treated better than the victims, I cant help thinking that it's people trying to make it about themselves. It's become so easy in today's world to become one of those people who is extremely angry about things that have nothing to do with them and I often find myself asking "who are you doing this for". Take those paedophile hunters for example...with the best of intentions, they trap individuals and present the evidence to the police so why the need for the 40 minutes of YouTube footage? As others have said, this is an extra layer of justice that is totally without boundaries. I don't know if anyone has seen the recent Tranent footage but it turned into a rabble of obnoxious, aggressive kids and was spread by those who were twisting it, suggesting that the police were in the wrong and shouldn't be respected or obeyed. It's an interesting contrast and probably tells you a lot about the societies in question.

I hate they videos. They’re becoming more and more frequent on my Facebook. I’m sure I read that there was quite a few of the guys making these videos have turned out to be paedophiles themselves.

[One Day]

**** him, what chance was James Bulger given?
Deserves everything he gets, I would out him in a minute too if I discovered him in my community.

I agree with you I would too