Suspected Murder of Russians

[Jim44]

Boris Johnson has announced that if Russian State intervention in the suspected attack on the two Russians is established, England’s representation in the World Cup will be in doubt.

“Mr Johnson said that if it emerged Russia was linked to the incident in Salisbury "it would be very difficult to imagine" that UK representation at this summer's football World Cup could go ahead in the "normal way".”

Then his statement was qualified by his aides :

Aides to Mr Johnson say he was referring to "officials" - and not the England team.

[hibsbollah]

Absolutely ridiculous time to make a statement like that. A lot of speculation, no proof of anything yet.

[Bostonhibby]

Boris talks first and thinks later. Ask the woman in the Iranian jail or the NHS about the £350m a week brexit windfall he spoke about. He's the bellends bellend.

[Stevie Reid]

He is the ugly epitome of just how far shear privilege alone can get you in this country.

One of the most depressing sights I have seen was young people in Sunderland queuing up to get selfies taken with him on the day of the EU referendum.

[Onion]

He is the ugly epitome of just how far shear privilege alone can get you in this country.

One of the most depressing sights I have seen was young people in Sunderland queuing up to get selfies taken with him on the day of the EU referendum.

hoe hoe hoe :cb

[Stevie Reid]

hoe hoe hoe :cb

:greengrin

[Stevie Reid]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/eton-must-be-****-everyone-concludes-20180228145065

[Hi Heid Yin]

I think I might be one of the few that actually likes Boris.
I agree that he is privileged, but he does at least have a personality - unlike the usual wooden, bland conservative.

[Sammy7nil]

I think I might be one of the few that actually likes Boris.
I agree that he is privileged, but he does at least have a personality - unlike the usual wooden, bland conservative.

If personalities are allowed to run the country we would have Ant and Dec with Graham Norton :agree:

[Pretty Boy]

He's a twat.

I suppose we can take solace from the fact we have a level of control when it comes to how much power he has. A 'luxury' denied to Russians when it comes to Putin.

[JimBHibees]

He is the ugly epitome of just how far shear privilege alone can get you in this country.

One of the most depressing sights I have seen was young people in Sunderland queuing up to get selfies taken with him on the day of the EU referendum.

Agree very depressing he is so far out of his depth it is embarrassing. His appointment of foreign secretary is up there with Tony Blair being Middle East peace envoy.

[Hi Heid Yin]

If personalities are allowed to run the country we would have Ant and Dec with Graham Norton :agree:

:tee hee::tee hee: That made me chortle

[WhileTheChief..]

I think I might be one of the few that actually likes Boris.
I agree that he is privileged, but he does at least have a personality - unlike the usual wooden, bland conservative.

I like him too. Needs to do something stronger about these pesky Russians though.

[Smartie]

I think I might be one of the few that actually likes Boris.
I agree that he is privileged, but he does at least have a personality - unlike the usual wooden, bland conservative.

Personally I'd have bland, wooden, utterly boring but COMPETENT people every day of the week.

I'm not even all that fussed which party - even the Tories have produced people that I have found almost acceptable in the past.

Politics was once called show business for ugly people - it isn't. It is the very serious matter of running country. It involves getting our public services right, making appropriate decisions regarding foreign policy and other major decisions correct.

For that you need intelligence and good judgment. Charisma may help when it comes to persuading the electorate, other politicians and foreign figures but I'd say it is preferable rather than must-have.

Looks and charm disappear down that list, to me anyway.

[Bostonhibby]

I like him too. Needs to do something stronger about these pesky Russians though.Agree.

If they don't stop supporting Assad killing people in Syria and don't return the Crimea to Ukraine Boris will pull the England team out of the world cup before they get knocked out and he'll save the fans from a hiding by not having to travel - not all bad then.

The bully Putin must be quaking in his boots.

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[lord bunberry]

I think I might be one of the few that actually likes Boris.
I agree that he is privileged, but he does at least have a personality - unlike the usual wooden, bland conservative.
Him and Rees Mogg are the two most dangerous people in the country right now. They use their personality status to hide the fact that they’re right wing *******s who will drag this country into the dark ages as long as they and their mates make a killing from it.

[Pete]

Him and Rees Mogg are the two most dangerous people in the country right now. They use their personality status to hide the fact that they’re right wing *******s who will drag this country into the dark ages as long as they and their mates make a killing from it.

:agree:

The sad thing is that media like the Sun paint them as fun toffs who are a little bit better than you...and so many idiots lap it up.

Very dangerous individuals.

[Phil MaGlass]

Yet another thread diverted and not covering the fact that YET again people in Britain whether Russian spys or not being murdered (oh yeah allegedly) by the Russians, and we turn it into a joke. English govt will do as usual sfa and everything will go back to normal in a couple of days. It really is amazing at to what lengths govts will go not to piss the russians off.

[Lago]

He's a twat.

I suppose we can take solace from the fact we have a level of control when it comes to how much power he has. A 'luxury' denied to Russians when it comes to Putin.
Unfortunately there are any number of twats in British politics, spread across the various parties.

[One Day]

If personalities are allowed to run the country we would have Ant and Dec with Graham Norton :agree:

I'd vote for them

[Pretty Boy]

Unfortunately there are any number of twats in British politics, spread across the various parties.

You won't get many arguments from me. The perfect career path for narcissists.

[lord bunberry]

:agree:

The sad thing is that media like the Sun paint them as fun toffs who are a little bit better than you...and so many idiots lap it up.

Very dangerous individuals.
They’re being marketed as lovable reality show type people. The difference is that they’re having a major influence on the future of everyone of us.

[Joe6-2]

I think I might be one of the few that actually likes Boris.
I agree that he is privileged, but he does at least have a personality - unlike the usual wooden, bland conservative.

I do to, too many stuffed shirts in politics

[WhileTheChief..]

Corbyn and co would sort out the Russians I’m sure :rolleyes:

[Pete]

Corbyn and co would sort out the Russians I’m sure :rolleyes:

He’s a Russian spy.

[IGRIGI]

Never understood the anti-Russian hysteria, Putin was spot on in Syria, spot on in Ukraine, and spot on in Crimea.

[Tobias Funke]

Him and Rees Mogg are the two most dangerous people in the country right now. They use their personality status to hide the fact that they’re right wing *******s who will drag this country into the dark ages as long as they and their mates make a killing from it.

Rees Mogg is a deeply loathsome individual. A sneering, smug toff who is alarmingly thought of as potential PM. He makes Johnson seem almost appealing.

[ancient hibee]

And Corbyn is an anti Semitic who has spent a lifetime opposing his own party.What a choice.

[Hi Heid Yin]

Personally I'd have bland, wooden, utterly boring but COMPETENT people every day of the week.

I'm not even all that fussed which party - even the Tories have produced people that I have found almost acceptable in the past.

Politics was once called show business for ugly people - it isn't. It is the very serious matter of running country. It involves getting our public services right, making appropriate decisions regarding foreign policy and other major decisions correct.

For that you need intelligence and good judgment. Charisma may help when it comes to persuading the electorate, other politicians and foreign figures but I'd say it is preferable rather than must-have.

Looks and charm disappear down that list, to me anyway.

I respect your point, but sometimes charisma can win over enemies, Gorbachev springs to mind - he was not your usual Brezhnev-type and he won the hearts and minds of not just Reagan but other leaders in the West. Talking of Reagan, now there was a man with charisma and charm - he relied heavily on the experience of his counsellors and those close to The White House.

[Pretty Boy]

Never understood the anti-Russian hysteria, Putin was spot on in Syria, spot on in Ukraine, and spot on in Crimea.

Spot on in his attitude towards homosexuality, democracy, free press, civil liberties, childrens rights, orphans and torture as well?

[jacomo]

:agree:

The sad thing is that media like the Sun paint them as fun toffs who are a little bit better than you...and so many idiots lap it up.

Very dangerous individuals.


:agree:

Can’t believe people fall for this act. A bit of self-deprecation and contrived eccentricity, and folk start doffing their caps to their masters.

[Eyrie]

Spot on in his attitude towards homosexuality, democracy, free press, civil liberties, childrens rights, orphans and torture as well?
I thought that was about Rees Mogg until I checked what you'd posted.

[Pretty Boy]

I thought that was about Rees Mogg until I checked what you'd posted.

Right wing populism, nationalism, social conservatism and anti globalism.

Putin and Rees Mogg have plenty in common, easily confused.

[jacomo]

And Corbyn is an anti Semitic who has spent a lifetime opposing his own party.What a choice.


No he isn’t.

There’s more evidence that Farage is anti-Semitic but the media aren’t playing that narrative.

[StPauli]

Boris talks first and thinks later. Ask the woman in the Iranian jail or the NHS about the £350m a week brexit windfall he spoke about. He's the bellends bellend.
I agree totally but so are all of his colleagues:top marks

[hibbiedon]

[QUOTE=Jim44;5334542]Boris Johnson has announced that if Russian State intervention in the suspected attack on the two Russians is established, England’s representation in the World Cup will be in doubt.

“Mr Johnson said that if it emerged Russia was linked to the incident in Salisbury "it would be very difficult to imagine" that UK representation at this summer's football World Cup could go ahead in the "normal way".”

Then his statement was qualified by his aides :

Aides to Mr Johnson say he was referring to "officials" - and not the England team.[/QUOTE

better Together go team Boris

[Bostonhibby]

No he isn’t.

There’s more evidence that Farage is anti-Semitic but the media aren’t playing that narrative.Agree but the anti semites would have to be paying him. This is the self interested / absorbed nyaff who has always taken a full salary plus expenses when he was a member of the European parliament.

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[660]

Corbyn is just inept. Johnson and Rees Mogg are malicious.

[Springbank]

Since September 2014 (to pick a starting point) we have seen UK politicians create the following embarassments on the world stage - that I challenge ANYONE on this forum to say represents Scotland well...

* TREATMENT OF EU NATIONALS LIVING IN SCOTLAND

Scottish/Rest of World view - on the morning of the Brexit result Scotland (and her political leadership) said clearly to EU nationals living here "This Is Your Home, you are welcome here", and was praised around the world for being so quick and so clear on where we (as a nation) stood on the matter. That's how you treat people.

UK view - shamelessly refused to guarantee anything for 18 months (June 2016 to Dec 2017) That's not how you treat people.

* IRISH BORDER

UK view - described it as "the easiest negotiation in history" (Liam Fox) before realising the UK hasn't a clue, and is being worked from the back by the DUP

Rest of World view - while on the other hand the EU negotiation team spend their time learning about the problems, understanding the matter, and supporting a small decent-living country (Ireland)

* TRUMP

UK view - Theresa May jumps to try and be the second overseas leader to meet Trump, despite his "grab em" behaviour and all the rest of it.

Scotland & Rest of World - First Minister condemns Trump's behaviour, and is acclaimed by Angela Merkel, Macron, Trudeau & others for her leadership on the matter



And now we have Boris, someone who is happy to lecture people in "bongo bongo land" (his phrase) about people's rights, the rule of law, and due process...
...yet is happy to be judge and jury about Russia in the Houses of Parliament yesterday, before any investigations have taken place, slamming Russia and threatening to pull a football team out the world cup.

You know when the Scots, the Irish, the EU27 via Brussels and now even the Russians are schooling London in the art of being reliable, that the UK is finished, its over.

[Bostonhibby]

Since September 2014 (to pick a starting point) we have seen UK politicians create the following embarassments on the world stage - that I challenge ANYONE on this forum to say represents Scotland well...

* TREATMENT OF EU NATIONALS LIVING IN SCOTLAND

Scottish/Rest of World view - on the morning of the Brexit result Scotland (and her political leadership) said clearly to EU nationals living here "This Is Your Home, you are welcome here", and was praised around the world for being so quick and so clear on where we (as a nation) stood on the matter. That's how you treat people.

UK view - shamelessly refused to guarantee anything for 18 months (June 2016 to Dec 2017) That's not how you treat people.

* IRISH BORDER

UK view - described it as "the easiest negotiation in history" (Liam Fox) before realising the UK hasn't a clue, and is being worked from the back by the DUP

Rest of World view - while on the other hand the EU negotiation team spend their time learning about the problems, understanding the matter, and supporting a small decent-living country (Ireland)

* TRUMP

UK view - Theresa May jumps to try and be the second overseas leader to meet Trump, despite his "grab em" behaviour and all the rest of it.

Scotland & Rest of World - First Minister condemns Trump's behaviour, and is acclaimed by Angela Merkel, Macron, Trudeau & others for her leadership on the matter



And now we have Boris, someone who is happy to lecture people in "bongo bongo land" (his phrase) about people's rights, the rule of law, and due process...
...yet is happy to be judge and jury about Russia in the Houses of Parliament yesterday, before any investigations have taken place, slamming Russia and threatening to pull a football team out the world cup.

You know when the Scots, the Irish, the EU27 via Brussels and now even the Russians are schooling London in the art of being reliable, that the UK is finished, its over. I think your being very selective suggesting that they haven't f'd it up on behalf of the rest of us as well[emoji6]

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[snooky]

I respect your point, but sometimes charisma can win over enemies, Gorbachev springs to mind - he was not your usual Brezhnev-type and he won the hearts and minds of not just Reagan but other leaders in the West. Talking of Reagan, now there was a man with charisma and charm - he relied heavily on the experience of his counsellors and those close to The White House.

:agree: Especially during the McCarthyism years. :rolleyes:

[Ryan69]

Im absolutely convinced there will be a war with Russia in this lifetime!

Where is the proof the Russians did this?

Could of been the Russians? or even MI5 or MI6!

More to the question it means the chemicals most likely passed through our security checks also if it was the Russians.

Russia has always been portrayed tobe the enemy throughout our lifetime.....But id certainly rather have Putin than May anyday of the week!

[Future17]

More to the question it means the chemicals most likely passed through our security checks also if it was the Russians.

If it was the Russians, there will not have been any security checks.

[Ryan69]

If it was the Russians, there will not have been any security checks.

To come through a port or Airport the substance would most likely of been with them though.

[Billy Whizz]

If it was the Russians, there will not have been any security checks.

Why is that

[Bostonhibby]

To come through a port or Airport the substance would most likely of been with them though.

Or already brought in as part of a diplomatic entry which we do not and cannot check?

[Ryan69]

Or already brought in as part of a diplomatic entry which we do not and cannot check?

Diplomatic mail is a crazy thing...


Onetime when at Schipol,a diplomatic mail bag was there for 2 years....and ended up having 40,000 euros in it.

Another opened up,and was full of kiddie porn.


Its unbelievable that its not checked.

But great point..and an obvious way if it was indeed the Russians.

[hughio]

:tee hee::tee hee: That made me chortle

:agree:

Embarrassing.

Foreign Secretary FFS!Diplomacy and this guy cannot be mentioned on the same page.

He as much represents the views of Scottish people as a nomad from Timbuktu.

And as for his twattish comments about Russia...that's just ridiculous at this early stage.Nobody knows what happened here.

[Bostonhibby]

Diplomatic mail is a crazy thing...


Onetime when at Schipol,a diplomatic mail bag was there for 2 years....and ended up having 40,000 euros in it.

Another opened up,and was full of kiddie porn.


Its unbelievable that its not checked.

But great point..and an obvious way if it was indeed the Russians.Nothing surprises me any more.

TBH the Russians in particular probably wouldn't have to go that far. Over the last couple of decades at least Russians (but not exclusively ) with money have been able to do pretty much as they like in and around London.

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[MrSmith]

Or already brought in as part of a diplomatic entry which we do not and cannot check?

probably already here! This wasn't the Russians, its distraction caused by Westminster and their MI5/6 buddies! No evidence to back it up but I'm not being fooled by this charade.

[GreenLake]

I respect your point, but sometimes charisma can win over enemies, Gorbachev springs to mind - he was not your usual Brezhnev-type and he won the hearts and minds of not just Reagan but other leaders in the West. Talking of Reagan, now there was a man with charisma and charm - he relied heavily on the experience of his counsellors and those close to The White House.

Oliver North?

[matty_f]

He's a twat.

I suppose we can take solace from the fact we have a level of control when it comes to how much power he has. A 'luxury' denied to Russians when it comes to Putin.

Twat is one of the softer words I'd use to describe the man. Most of the other ones would not pass our filter on here. :greengrin

[andybev1]

IT is funny how those two people have been walking around for years without being touched but now we want to up the anti with russia this happens, just like the chemical weapons in Syria and lots of other well timed incidents on the world stage - I smell BS

[Betty Boop]

IT is funny how those two people have been walking around for years without being touched but now we want to up the anti with russia this happens, just like the chemical weapons in Syria and lots of other well timed incidents on the world stage - I smell BS

Couldn't agree more.

[Bostonhibby]

probably already here! This wasn't the Russians, its distraction caused by Westminster and their MI5/6 buddies! No evidence to back it up but I'm not being fooled by this charade.You'll not find me jumping to any conclusions. This is a political and media system that gave us the Hillsborough cover up and the Birmingham six to name but a few.

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[Betty Boop]

Of course the Government has no problem rolling out the red carpet for Prince Mohammad bin Salman and his entourage.

[Bostonhibby]

Of course the Government has no problem rolling out the red carpet for Prince Mohammad bin Salman and his entourage.We were big fans of that nice general pinochet back in the day when very few other governments were.

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[MrSmith]

You'll not find me jumping to any conclusions. This is a political and media system that gave us the Hillsborough cover up and the Birmingham six to name but a few.

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I agree :)

[jacomo]

Agree but the anti semites would have to be paying him. This is the self interested / absorbed nyaff who has always taken a full salary plus expenses when he was a member of the European parliament.

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He quite freely acted like a member of the Hitler Youth at school...

[Pretty Boy]

When it comea to Russia there's a definite case of the enemy of my enemy with some. A regime that has supressed political opposition, restricted the press, been involved in torture, restricted civil liberties and promotes social conservatism and nationalism being defended by some for little reason other than they aren't the UK or US.

I have no idea what happened to those 2 people in Salisbury but it's just as plausible they were targeted by the Russians as it is that MI5 carried out the attack.

[Bostonhibby]

He quite freely acted like a member of the Hitler Youth at school...He gets about a bit for sure but his ultimate priority is himself.

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[CockneyRebel]

Spot on in his attitude towards homosexuality, democracy, free press, civil liberties, childrens rights, orphans and torture as well?


And the odd invasion.

[Bostonhibby]

When it comea to Russia there's a definite case of the enemy of my enemy with some. A regime that has supressed political opposition, restricted the press, been involved in torture, restricted civil liberties and promotes social conservatism and nationalism being defended by some for little reason other than they aren't the UK or US.

I have no idea what happened to those 2 people in Salisbury but it's just as plausible they were targeted by the Russians as it is that MI5 carried out the attack.The circumstantial evidence seems to point that way just now, then again maybe fake news is working against Putin in some eyes this time around? Who knows. Maybe there's just some really unlucky ex Russian and Soviet citizens living in the UK

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[SkintHibby]

And the odd invasion.

10,000 people of Russian lineage in eastern Ukraine have been murdered by Ukrainian government forces in the last 4 years and Russia is supposed to stand by and let it happen? Crimea is Russian. Always has been always will be.

You are very naive at best.

Russia is being demonised in the west because it will not roll over to the USA wanting to totally control the planet.:agree:

[BullsCloseHibs]

Couldn't give two hoots if they go or not.

Not my country!

[The Pointer]

Never understood the anti-Russian hysteria, Putin was spot on in Syria, spot on in Ukraine, and spot on in Crimea.

You work for the FSB and I claim the fiver.

[WhileTheChief..]

Aye MI5 are as likely as the Russians to have done this!

Ukraine govt murdered 10000 people in 4 years? Aye right then.

Way too much leftist Commie nonsense getting sprouted as usual on here.

Go team Corbyn!!!!

[Keith_M]

Holy Ground?


:dunno:

[Tinribs]

My personal favourite was the Russian banker who upset Putin. Somehow tied himself to a chair, stapled a suicide note to his forehead then managed to throw himself in a pool lol.
Verdict? Suicide 😁

[JimBHibees]

10,000 people of Russian lineage in eastern Ukraine have been murdered by Ukrainian government forces in the last 4 years and Russia is supposed to stand by and let it happen? Crimea is Russian. Always has been always will be.

You are very naive at best.

Russia is being demonised in the west because it will not roll over to the USA wanting to totally control the planet.:agree:

Ukranian deaths in numbers here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Ukrainian_crisis

[JimBHibees]

My personal favourite was the Russian banker who upset Putin. Somehow tied himself to a chair, stapled a suicide note to his forehead then managed to throw himself in a pool lol.
Verdict? Suicide 😁

Or his main political opponent being shot within sight of the Kremlin.

[TrinityHibs]

10,000 people of Russian lineage in eastern Ukraine have been murdered by Ukrainian government forces in the last 4 years and Russia is supposed to stand by and let it happen? Crimea is Russian. Always has been always will be.

You are very naive at best.

Russia is being demonised in the west because it will not roll over to the USA wanting to totally control the planet.:agree:

As of December 2017 the UN said that 10303 people from both sides of the conflict had been killed in Ukraine excluding Ukrainian army personnel and the 296 people in the Malaysia Airlines flight 17. I have not been able to find the 10,000 people of Russian lineage statistic you quote.

Crimea is currently Russian. The Tsars (a fine group of people) annexed it from the Ottoman Empire in 1783 The predominance of Russian speakers in the Crimea came about after WW2 when the Russians deported all Crimean Tatars to Central Asia (Killing 50% of them in the process) along with a load of Greeks and Armenians.

I am not sure what this has to do with football but I can say with some certainty that Crimea has not always been Russian and that it is relatively straightforward to become a dominant group in a country if you kill all your neighbours who are not part of your group.

[snooky]

My personal favourite was the Russian banker who upset Putin. Somehow tied himself to a chair, stapled a suicide note to his forehead then managed to throw himself in a pool lol.
Verdict? Suicide 😁

Was it a bath chair?

[Lendo]

Ukranian deaths in numbers here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Ukrainian_crisis

Wikipedia as a source. That’ll be case closed then....

[One Day Soon]

What on earth could these individuals who keep dying in improbable circumstances possibly have in common I wonder? If only there was some kind of consistent thread that makes it absolutely bl00dy obvious who is behind it.

Still, let's not jump to conclusions about Europe's friendly neighbourhood gangster state eh? :rolleyes:

[SkintHibby]

Why would Russia try to kill these two a couple of weeks before their election and only 100 days before the world cup? It makes no sense and there would be nothing to be gained from it.

More likely the CIA, MI5 or Mossad tried to have them bumped of to try to demonise Russia even further (they would not think twice about bumping off a couple of Russkies).:agree:

In the world of espionage, things are rarely as simple as they appear to be!

[WhileTheChief..]

Now being reported that the police office who attended the scene is in a critical condition due to the nerve agent used.

Suppose that’s the Tory governments fault along with our security forces too eh.

[One Day Soon]

Why would Russia try to kill these two a couple of weeks before their election and only 100 days before the world cup? It makes no sense and there would be nothing to be gained from it.

More likely the CIA, MI5 or Mossad tried to have them bumped of to try to demonise Russia even further (they would not think twice about bumping off a couple of Russkies).:agree:

In the world of espionage, things are rarely as simple as they appear to be!


So the first proposition makes no sense but the second one seems perfectly likely to you?

[ancient hibee]

Why would Russia try to kill these two a couple of weeks before their election and only 100 days before the world cup? It makes no sense and there would be nothing to be gained from it.

More likely the CIA, MI5 or Mossad tried to have them bumped of to try to demonise Russia even further (they would not think twice about bumping off a couple of Russkies).:agree:

In the world of espionage, things are rarely as simple as they appear to be!
Now who would be most likely to kill him the country he betrayed or the countries that benefitted from the betrayal,one of whom got him out of Russia?

[Baader]

Why would Russia try to kill these two a couple of weeks before their election and only 100 days before the world cup? It makes no sense and there would be nothing to be gained from it.

More likely the CIA, MI5 or Mossad tried to have them bumped of to try to demonise Russia even further (they would not think twice about bumping off a couple of Russkies).:agree:

In the world of espionage, things are rarely as simple as they appear to be!

The problem with conspiracy theories is they are designed to get people further away from the truth. Was it them that took Litvinenko out I wonder?! Where does Mossad come into this exactly????

Russia gain a lot from taking out a spy who turned I don't think you can refute that!

[One Day Soon]

If a serving police officer dies as a result of this it gets hard not to wonder - if this is ok, what's next?

[Lago]

Aye MI5 are as likely as the Russians to have done this!

Ukraine govt murdered 10000 people in 4 years? Aye right then.

Way too much leftist Commie nonsense getting sprouted as usual on here.

Go team Corbyn!!!!
I'm with you.:aok:

[Lendo]

I didn’t realise that we had so many experts on espionage and statecraft on this forum

[andybev1]

10,000 people of Russian lineage in eastern Ukraine have been murdered by Ukrainian government forces in the last 4 years and Russia is supposed to stand by and let it happen? Crimea is Russian. Always has been always will be.

You are very naive at best.

Russia is being demonised in the west because it will not roll over to the USA wanting to totally control the planet.:agree:

I have now and again came across sites from ppl from Donetsk and the pictures of ppl killed in housing schemes, that could be in edinburgh, are scary an sad. I really feel for them

[Mantis Toboggan]

Wikipedia as a source. That’ll be case closed then....

Except the wiki article links to actual sources.

[WeAreHibs]

I didn’t realise that we had so many experts on espionage and statecraft on this forum

Just what I was thinking, along with why this is still on this forum ?!

[G B Young]

Just what I was thinking, along with why this is still on this forum ?!

Indeed. Bizarre thread to be on this forum. One for the Holy Ground I'd suggest.

[Hi Heid Yin]

10,000 people of Russian lineage in eastern Ukraine have been murdered by Ukrainian government forces in the last 4 years and Russia is supposed to stand by and let it happen? Crimea is Russian. Always has been always will be.

You are very naive at best.

Russia is being demonised in the west because it will not roll over to the USA wanting to totally control the planet.:agree:

:agree::agree:

[Mr White]

Indeed. Bizarre thread to be on this forum. One for the Holy Ground I'd suggest.

There was a link to football in the OP with BJ's comments re the world cup. Way off topic now though.

[Hibrandenburg]

Why would Russia try to kill these two a couple of weeks before their election and only 100 days before the world cup? It makes no sense and there would be nothing to be gained from it.

More likely the CIA, MI5 or Mossad tried to have them bumped of to try to demonise Russia even further (they would not think twice about bumping off a couple of Russkies).:agree:

In the world of espionage, things are rarely as simple as they appear to be!

Message to dissident Russians. " Don't **** with us ".

[Killiehibbie]

if I was running a book Russia would be heavy odds on.

[Hibrandenburg]

if I was running a book Russia would be heavy odds on.

I wouldn't be taking bets on Russia.

[Killiehibbie]

I wouldn't be taking bets on Russia.
It would cost you many weeks wages to win the price of a double vodka.

[Colr]

Talking about seizing Russian assets.

That could free up some housing in London.

They should nationalise Chelsea F.C. as well.

[SkintHibby]

The problem with conspiracy theories is they are designed to get people further away from the truth. Was it them that took Litvinenko out I wonder?! Where does Mossad come into this exactly????

Russia gain a lot from taking out a spy who turned I don't think you can refute that!

Good question regarding Mossad. Israel is trying and failing to get the Russians to reign in the Iranians in Syria. They are not happy with Russia and would love to see western European nations turn on Russia further. I don't trust Israel one little bit.

So Russia releases a spy, pardons him then tries to wipe him out in a foreign country a few years later? Pure nonsense.:agree:

Some country out there is wanting this blamed on Russia.:aok:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Good question regarding Mossad. Israel is trying and failing to get the Russians to reign in the Iranians in Syria. They are not happy with Russia and would love to see western European nations turn on Russia further. I don't trust Israel one little bit.

So Russia releases a spy, pardons him then tries to wipe him out in a foreign country a few years later? Pure nonsense.:agree:

Some country out there is wanting this blamed on Russia.:aok:

Forgive my ignorance... but if 'the west' or Israel wanted to blame the russians for something, why wouldnt they just use one of the many other bad things they have done?

Maybe like shooting a passenger plane oit of the sky, facilitating war crimes in Syria, annexing Crimea, flattening Chechnya, waging aggressive war in Ukraine, invading Georgia, state sponsored kleptocracy or state sponsored assassinations of opposition leaders and critical journalists?

Or even state run doping programmes so bad they got thrown out thd olympics?

Would seem easier to me, than us poisoning our own national spy asset, and numerous other people inc a policeman in a very public way, at the same time as embarrassing our own secret security service and lessening the chance that agents will flip in the future?

Just a thought likes...

[One Day Soon]

Good question regarding Mossad. Israel is trying and failing to get the Russians to reign in the Iranians in Syria. They are not happy with Russia and would love to see western European nations turn on Russia further. I don't trust Israel one little bit.

So Russia releases a spy, pardons him then tries to wipe him out in a foreign country a few years later? Pure nonsense.:agree:

Some country out there is wanting this blamed on Russia.:aok:

Meanwhile, back on Planet Earth...

[Hibrandenburg]

Forgive my ignorance... but if 'the west' or Israel wanted to blame the russians for something, why wouldnt they just use one of the many other bad things they have done?

Maybe like shooting a passenger plane oit of the sky, facilitating war crimes in Syria, annexing Crimea, flattening Chechnya, waging aggressive war in Ukraine, invading Georgia, state sponsored kleptocracy or state sponsored assassinations of opposition leaders and critical journalists?

Or even state run doping programmes so bad they got thrown out thd olympics?

Would seem easier to me, than us poisoning our own national spy asset, and numerous other people inc a policeman in a very public way, at the same time as embarrassing our own secret security service and lessening the chance that agents will flip in the future?

Just a thought likes...

:agree: Excellent points.

[Pete]

:hmmm:

https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/army-study-us-strategy-to-dethrone-putin-for-oil-pipelines-might-provoke-ww3-9b1d9dbe6be9

[Moulin Yarns]

My personal favourite was the Russian banker who upset Putin. Somehow tied himself to a chair, stapled a suicide note to his forehead then managed to throw himself in a pool lol.
Verdict? Suicide 😁

Suicide in this case.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-42944124

Miscarriage of Justice

[Scouse Hibee]

The problem with conspiracy theories is they are designed to get people further away from the truth. Was it them that took Litvinenko out I wonder?! Where does Mossad come into this exactly????

Russia gain a lot from taking out a spy who turned I don't think you can refute that!

Mossad probably comes into because most people's impressions of how the Security Services operate are borne from TV and film fiction.

[Pretty Boy]

Mossad probably comes into because most people's impressions of how the Security Services operate are borne from TV and film fiction.

Indeed.

I remember reading an interview with an ex MI6 agent who said his job mainly involves hanging about dive bars eavesdropping, sitting behind a computer screen and stressing about lying to all his family and friends about what he did for a living.

He said the idea of folk running about the streets with guns and gadgets and ****ging anything that moved was the result a very vivid imagination. He also said a huge number of western agents look like computer geeks and a high percentage, for obvious reasons, are Asians fluent in Arabic.

[Colr]

Remember that dodgy Scottish property developer that owed the Russians and ended up empaled on railings in Marylebone!?

There’s an understanding in property that one should avoid working with Russians if you possibly can!

[snooky]

TBH, when you look at the stakes world powers (legit and non-legit) play for, the odd murder is but a fly swat. While the Ruskies are probably the bookies' favourite, there's a few good outsiders in the field.

[heretoday]

I didn’t realise that we had so many experts on espionage and statecraft on this forum

Moles, Mr Smiley. Similar to trolls.

[Betty Boop]

This guy was captured, tried,imprisoned and traded off in a spy swap. The Russians had ample opportunity to get rid of him years ago. Who knows what he was up to currently ?

[Smartie]

This guy was captured, tried,imprisoned and traded off in a spy swap. The Russians had ample opportunity to get rid of him years ago. Who knows what he was up to currently ?

The Russians have been goading us in a number of different ways recently.

They have been checking out the positions of all of the gas pipelines supplying the UK, they have been running regular incursions into British seas/ airspace to test our military responses.

There's quite a lot of cat and mouse, "we're watching you, watching us" going on at the moment.

Maybe the time is just right for them to make some sort of a point right now?

"We're so strong we can march onto your territory, kill a former spy and there is nothing you can do about it" show of strength/ bravado?

[One Day Soon]

The Russians have been goading us in a number of different ways recently.

They have been checking out the positions of all of the gas pipelines supplying the UK, they have been running regular incursions into British seas/ airspace to test our military responses.

There's quite a lot of cat and mouse, "we're watching you, watching us" going on at the moment.

Maybe the time is just right for them to make some sort of a point right now?

"We're so strong we can march onto your territory, kill a former spy and there is nothing you can do about it" show of strength/ bravado?


Precisely. And done in the middle of their election to demonstrate to the electorate how strong the current leader is too.

If they'd wanted him dead without any comeback they wouldn't have used an incredibly traceable nerve agent. A bit like killing someone with traceable radioactive Polonium isotope. They were messages as much as they were murders or attempted murders.

[snooky]

This guy was captured, tried,imprisoned and traded off in a spy swap. The Russians had ample opportunity to get rid of him years ago. Who knows what he was up to currently ?

Although the finger points to Russia, I can't see what they would get out of doing this.
a) Petty revenge?
b) He's still actively operating?
c) Sending out a message to other rogue agents?
d) Showing the world they can do what they want - anywhere?
Maybe all four. :dunno:
The fallout in terms of detente, etc. is massive and could affect east/west relations for years.
Seems a big price to pay for hitting one dormant ex-spy.
As a poster said earlier, they had other & better opportunities to get rid of him. Why would they use a toxin that points directly to them. Seems a bit silly unless that was their intention of course - see (c).

[One Day Soon]

Although the finger points to Russia, I can't see what they would get out of doing this.
a) Petty revenge?
b) His still actively operating?
c) Sending out a message to other rogue agents?
d) Showing the world they can do what they want - anywhere?
Maybe all four. :dunno:
The fallout in terms of detente, etc. is massive and could affect east/west relations for years.
Seems a big price to pay for hitting one dormant ex-spy.
As a poster said earlier, they had other & better opportunities to get rid of him. Why would they use a toxin that points directly to them. Seems a bit silly unless that was their intention of course - see (c).


We are already at Cold War with Russia again.

Your answer is c. and d. except its also a message to their own population, the West and of course to those countries that the West and others constantly seek to influence/control/direct.

[pollution]

What a ridiculous headline to this thread.

[JeMeSouviens]

I heard a Russia-watcher on the radio the other day saying Litvinenko was hit primarily because he was aiding Western understanding of how the money flows worked between various bits of organised crime and state agencies. No idea if that applies in this case but follow the money might (as ever) be useful advice.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm not so sure Britain has too much moral high ground to get on here when we're taking out British Jihadis in the Middle East with extra-judicial drone strikes.

[Smartie]

Fairly interesting twist on this now that it has been reported that Rex Tillerson has been sacked.

I suspect that this might soon get a bit messy.

[snooky]

Fairly interesting twist on this now that it has been reported that Rex Tillerson has been sacked.

I suspect that this might soon get a bit messy.

The West is rather unstable at the moment with a divided America (Trump pros & cons) and a doubly divided UK (Brexit and Indy2 pros and cons). All divisions appear to be approx 50/50 which makes the usual acceptable democratic solution a nightmare i.e. either way, half the population is left (no pun there) pi$$ed off.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Although the finger points to Russia, I can't see what they would get out of doing this.
a) Petty revenge?
b) He's still actively operating?
c) Sending out a message to other rogue agents?
d) Showing the world they can do what they want - anywhere?
Maybe all four. :dunno:
The fallout in terms of detente, etc. is massive and could affect east/west relations for years.
Seems a big price to pay for hitting one dormant ex-spy.
As a poster said earlier, they had other & better opportunities to get rid of him. Why would they use a toxin that points directly to them. Seems a bit silly unless that was their intention of course - see (c).

I suppose the problem with any espionage story is we only know a small part of it.

Who knows what is going on behind the scenes that make this good timing for the russians? Bit they obviously wanted it to be known that it was them.

[hibsbollah]

There isn't any actual evidence that the Russian government has its fingerprints over this. It is just as likely to be an organised crime related killing (although cynics would say when it comes to Russia the lines are somewhat blurred).

I hear mention of the cold war. In the old days when things like this happened (poisoned tipped umbrellas in Hungary, exploding scuba suits, all that fun James Bond carry on), the other side would just hit back by killing a spy from the opposing side. It was the gentlemanly thing to do and kept the cold war from becoming hot. Expelling diplomats is a possibility if Theresa May and the intelligence community is too Levein to order a 'reprisal' hit on a western turncoat, of which there are quite a few.

Assuming of course that all this information we're getting (nerve agent, men in suits, Russian sailors, Mikey Forrester) is the whole story.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

There isn't any actual evidence that the Russian government has its fingerprints over this. It is just as likely to be an organised crime related killing (although cynics would say when it comes to Russia the lines are somewhat blurred).

I hear mention of the cold war. In the old days when things like this happened (poisoned tipped umbrellas in Hungary, exploding scuba suits, all that fun James Bond carry on), the other side would just hit back by killing a spy from the opposing side. It was the gentlemanly thing to do and kept the cold war from becoming hot. Expelling diplomats is a possibility if Theresa May and the intelligence community is too Levein to order a 'reprisal' hit on a western turncoat, of which there are quite a few.

Assuming of course that all this information we're getting (nerve agent, men in suits, Russian sailors, Mikey Forrester) is the whole story.

I think the poison tipped umbrella was in london too?

I dount our govt would be naming thd russians unless they were sure - ultimately, it benefits the Russians and makes us look bad.

[ronaldo7]

I'm not so sure Britain has too much moral high ground to get on here when we're taking out British Jihadis in the Middle East with extra-judicial drone strikes.

It's not like the British Government have any form in this, is it.:rolleyes:

Another piece from a different perspective. https://t.co/uPAfRMBq5w

[hibsbollah]

I think the poison tipped umbrella was in london too?

I dount our govt would be naming the Russians unless they were sure - ultimately, it benefits the Russians and makes us look bad.

****ing poison tipped umbrellas, they get everywhere:greengrin
I think the official UK line is that theyre NOT sure but the evidence points to 'Russia'. The Russian government has asked to see evidence of the nerve agent named. We'll see what happens next. Id imagine it will be next to impossible to get any evidence that points directly to the Kremlin.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

****ing poison tipped umbrellas, they get everywhere:greengrin
I think the official UK line is that theyre NOT sure but the evidence points to 'Russia'. The Russian government has asked to see evidence of the nerve agent named. We'll see what happens next. Id imagine it will be next to impossible to get any evidence that points directly to the Kremlin.

Not sure i agree- they seem to have gone out of their way to make sure everyone knows it was them.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's not like the British Government have any form in this, is it.:rolleyes:

Another piece from a different perspective. https://t.co/uPAfRMBq5w

Bit of a strawman argument in the first line - i havent heaed anyone mention anything about going to war.

All a bit 'random guy on the internet' for me. Still, im sure being in canada means he has his finger on the pulse far more than our police, military and security services...

[ronaldo7]

Bit of a strawman argument in the first line - i havent heaed anyone mention anything about going to war.

All a bit 'random guy on the internet' for me. Still, im sure being in canada means he has his finger on the pulse far more than our police, military and security services...

If you read the guys credentials at the bottom of the article, he's hardly a random off t'internet.

At the moment, we have "highly likely" as the new, hang em high, guilty as charged account by Theresa. I'd rather the Russians were allowed to make their case, and be given the time to do so.

It all seems a bit rushed by Theresa and co.

Protocol is for them to have 10 days, we've given them 2.

More questions than answers on this one.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

If you read the guys credentials at the bottom of the article, he's hardly a random off t'internet.

At the moment, we have "highly likely" as the new, hang em high, guilty as charged account by Theresa. I'd rather the Russians were allowed to make their case, and be given the time to do so.

It all seems a bit rushed by Theresa and co.

Protocol is for them to have 10 days, we've given them 2.

More questions than answers on this one.

Well we can agree to disagree on the guys credentials.

Fair enough, but i honestly think no matter what, you would find a reason to cast the UK govt as the bumbling idiots / villains of the piece - my enemy's enemy, and all that.

[ronaldo7]

Well we can agree to disagree on the guys credentials.

Fair enough, but i honestly think no matter what, you would find a reason to cast the UK govt as the bumbling idiots / villains of the piece - my enemy's enemy, and all that.

Not when people are hospitalised.

I don't have to find a reason to cast the UK gov as buffoons, they're making a good job of it, all by themselves.

This is way more serious than, Boris and his faux pas, or Dr fox and his, easy as pie comments.

It would be nice if the authorities would provide some hard evidence, so we might make informed decisions.

Until then, we'll have to swallow the free press and their impartial views.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Not when people are hospitalised.

I don't have to find a reason to cast the UK gov as buffoons, they're making a good job of it, all by themselves.

This is way more serious than, Boris and his faux pas, or Dr fox and his, easy as pie comments.

It would be nice if the authorities would provide some hard evidence, so we might make informed decisions.

Until then, we'll have to swallow the free press and their impartial views.

Well they habe said the nerve agent was invented and is produced by Russia.

I would bet that a fair amount of the 'evidence' is secret and so will never be made public - that's just the nature of the beast.

We each either choose to believe it, or we choose not to, either way it will make no difference to either perpetrators or victims, and i highly suspect that most of the retaliation / reaction that we make, you or i will be blissfully unaware of.

[One Day Soon]

Once we have the UK government publicly demanding explanations by midnight we're well beyond any doubt as to who they think is responsible.

The attempted murders took place on 4th March. Interestingly on 6th March a Russian military aircraft went down in Syria with the loss of all 39 people on board.

I think the informal response keeping it cold has already happened and what we are seeing now are the public niceties.

[JimBHibees]

Once we have the UK government publicly demanding explanations by midnight we're well beyond any doubt as to who they think is responsible.

The attempted murders took place on 4th March. Interestingly on 6th March a Russian military aircraft went down in Syria with the loss of all 39 people on board.

I think the informal response keeping it cold has already happened and what we are seeing now are the public niceties.

You reckon the UK did that?

Seems a strange one, especially with the nerve agent you would think it an unusual way of killing someone or was it more of a more general threat to the UK and the west that this is the sort of weapons we can use.

[Jim44]

Whodunnit? Now we’re past the ‘gut reaction’ stage, who were the perpetrators?

The Russians.
The UK.
A third party.

[hibsbollah]

Gary Locke has tweeted his sympathy with the victims of the attack. 'I too know how it feels to be sprayed in the face with something unpleasant by an unknown Russian'.

I'll get my coat.:duck:

[snooky]

Whodunnit? Now we’re past the ‘gut reaction’ stage, who were the perpetrators?

The Russians.
The UK.
A third party.

Somewhat surprised the SNP hasn't been named as the prime suspect. :whistle:

:stirrer:

[Hibrandenburg]

Somewhat surprised the SNP hasn't been named as the prime suspect. :whistle:

:stirrer:

That Salmond bloke has connections dontcha know.

[RyeSloan]

Bit of a strawman argument in the first line - i havent heaed anyone mention anything about going to war.

All a bit 'random guy on the internet' for me. Still, im sure being in canada means he has his finger on the pulse far more than our police, military and security services...

I particularly liked the line about trumped up doping charges that NATO Nations have used to cunningly discredit Russian Olympians, all part of a devious plan to discredit Russia of course.

Like we need devious plans to see just how Putin and his cronies work...

[ronaldo7]

Well they habe said the nerve agent was invented and is produced by Russia.

I would bet that a fair amount of the 'evidence' is secret and so will never be made public - that's just the nature of the beast.

We each either choose to believe it, or we choose not to, either way it will make no difference to either perpetrators or victims, and i highly suspect that most of the retaliation / reaction that we make, you or i will be blissfully unaware of.

Produced by Russia, is it?

You might find it's more countries than Russia who were/are involved.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Produced by Russia, is it?

You might find it's more countries than Russia who were/are involved.

Im no expert on nerve gas, but apparently so, yes.

Of coursr i might find that, but at the moment all the considersd evidence, from credible sources seem to agree it is russia begind the attack.

So far, ive read you, and some Canadian blogger who have cast aspersions on that narrative. Does that mean you and the blogger are wrong? Of course it doesnt.

But it does mean that to a lay person like me, weighing up the evidence (scant as it is) that i can see, the overwhelming probability is that it was russia.

By propagating and spreading completely unsubstantiated conspiracy theories, laden with innuendo, you are effectively doing what steve bannon and trump do.

Yes it is good to challenge the dominant media narrative, and i am not so naive to believe anything any politician says at face value, but the challening narrative has to be credible, and substantual. Otherwisr it is just blogging, verging on conspiracy theory, otherwise known as fake news.

And given how effectively the russians apparrntly are at 'full spectrum' warfare, such as the dissemination of disinformation, i would suggest that many internet blogs need to be taken with a huge pinch of salt.

[ronaldo7]

Im no expert on nerve gas, but apparently so, yes.

Of coursr i might find that, but at the moment all the considersd evidence, from credible sources seem to agree it is russia begind the attack.

So far, ive read you, and some Canadian blogger who have cast aspersions on that narrative. Does that mean you and the blogger are wrong? Of course it doesnt.

But it does mean that to a lay person like me, weighing up the evidence (scant as it is) that i can see, the overwhelming probability is that it was russia.

By propagating and spreading completely unsubstantiated conspiracy theories, laden with innuendo, you are effectively doing what steve bannon and trump do.

Yes it is good to challenge the dominant media narrative, and i am not so naive to believe anything any politician says at face value, but the challening narrative has to be credible, and substantual. Otherwisr it is just blogging, verging on conspiracy theory, otherwise known as fake news.

And given how effectively the russians apparrntly are at 'full spectrum' warfare, such as the dissemination of disinformation, i would suggest that many internet blogs need to be taken with a huge pinch of salt.

You need to do a bit more reading then.

Start about 6 miles from Salisbury

[One Day Soon]

You need to do a bit more reading then.

Start about 6 miles from Salisbury


Or just start here: https://twitter.com/corbyn50plus/status/974011990254538754

[JeMeSouviens]

Or just start here: https://twitter.com/corbyn50plus/status/974011990254538754

Worth reading just for this:


You wouldn't recognise a mass spectrometer if it hit you smack in your stupid gob.

:greengrin

[snooky]

Im no expert on nerve gas, but apparently so, yes.

Of coursr i might find that, but at the moment all the considersd evidence, from credible sources seem to agree it is russia begind the attack.

So far, ive read you, and some Canadian blogger who have cast aspersions on that narrative. Does that mean you and the blogger are wrong? Of course it doesnt.

But it does mean that to a lay person like me, weighing up the evidence (scant as it is) that i can see, the overwhelming probability is that it was russia.

By propagating and spreading completely unsubstantiated conspiracy theories, laden with innuendo, you are effectively doing what steve bannon and trump do.

Yes it is good to challenge the dominant media narrative, and i am not so naive to believe anything any politician says at face value, but the challening narrative has to be credible, and substantual. Otherwisr it is just blogging, verging on conspiracy theory, otherwise known as fake news.

And given how effectively the russians apparrntly are at 'full spectrum' warfare, such as the dissemination of disinformation, i would suggest that many internet blogs need to be taken with a huge pinch of salt.

Ahem, the British are the masters at it. Take WW2 for example, "The Man Who Never Was", cardboard aeroplanes & tanks, etc. I don't believe for one minute this kind of deceptive warfare isn't ongoing - by Britain, Russia, et al.
I'm sure this 'game' runs a lot deeper than any of us can imagine.

[One Day Soon]

Worth reading just for this:



:greengrin

I must admit I thought that was pretty good. Almost .net quality stuff.

[ronaldo7]

Or just start here: https://twitter.com/corbyn50plus/status/974011990254538754

Read it last night, thanks. Sheds more light than anything I've heard from the UK gov or the Bbc to be honest.

I've not got it to hand but I also read a good piece in the Irish Times.

Their are more unbiased views out there, than the Bbc, that's for sure.

[One Day Soon]

Read it last night, thanks. Sheds more light than anything I've heard from the UK gov or the Bbc to be honest.

I've not got it to hand but I also read a good piece in the Irish Times.

Their are more unbiased views out there, than the Bbc, that's for sure.


Clyde Davies takes Craig Murray to the cleaners in that thread and leaves little room for doubt where this has come from.

[ronaldo7]

Clyde Davies takes Craig Murray to the cleaners in that thread and leaves little room for doubt where this has come from.

I'll try and dig out the Irish piece later on.

[Beefster]

Clyde Davies takes Craig Murray to the cleaners in that thread and leaves little room for doubt where this has come from.

No, no. Clyde Davies, most governments in the West and you are wrong.

An ex-ambassador to Uzbekistan and a Canadian lawyer are right.

[JeMeSouviens]

Seems to me that:

- it was Russia
- they're rubbing "our" noses in it
- there's **** all "we" can do about it
- all sides will be up to nefarious misdeeds - has nobody seen a Bond film ffs?

[JeMeSouviens]

... and Corbyn & co seem to be transferring their residual semi for the Soviets onto modern day Putinism*. Cringe.

* if that's a thing.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You need to do a bit more reading then.

Start about 6 miles from Salisbury

What, i need to start reading about six miles from Salisbury? Can i not just read when im here in Edinburgh?

[JeMeSouviens]

What, i need to start reading about six miles from Salisbury? Can i not just read when im here in Edinburgh?

Are you here all week? :rolleyes: :greengrin

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

... and Corbyn & co seem to be transferring their residual semi for the Soviets onto modern day Putinism*. Cringe.

* if that's a thing.

Yeah, i do find this strange. I know he loved the USSR, but what does Putin habe to do with international socialism? Or is it just residual bitterness that the west (capitalism) resoundingly defeated the east (socialism), therefore the west is evil?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Are you here all week? :rolleyes: :greengrin

I felt that was the sort of response that stupid conspiracy-theory type innuendo deserved 😁

[hibsbollah]

Yeah, i do find this strange. I know he loved the USSR, but what does Putin habe to do with international socialism? Or is it just residual bitterness that the west (capitalism) resoundingly defeated the east (socialism), therefore the west is evil?

10/10 for misrepresentation. What a ****ing country we live in, the leader of the opposition condemns whoever carried out the attack, asks what response Putin gave to the allegations, and points out that cuts to the diplomatic service probably didn't help matters, and he gets portrayed by the usual suspects as some sort of apologist.

Edit: Corbyns op-ed piece in the guardian. Hardly pro Russian, is it?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/15/salisbury-attack-conflict-britain-cold-war

An amazing speech from our esteemed foreign secretary this afternoon. In his world, just the fact that the Russians 'sounded smug' in their denials was proof enough of their guilt.

[overdrive]

If it is the UK that's done this to try to besmirch Russia, as some people seem to be claiming, why haven't the UK security services gone in and finished the job? If the UK are lying about this, the government are going to find themselves in an awful mess if the two victims are somehow able to recover to a degree and identify who did it.

I feel sorry for the policeman and his family with a range of conspiracy theorists, including George Galloway on a national media outlet, basically pointing the finger at him as the person who administered the nerve agent.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

10/10 for misrepresentation. What a ****ing country we live in, the leader of the opposition condemns whoever carried out the attack, asks what response Putin gave to the allegations, and points out that cuts to the diplomatic service probably didn't help matters, and he gets portrayed by the usual suspects as some sort of apologist.

An amazing speech from our esteemed foreign secretary this afternoon. In his world, just the fact that the Russians 'sounded smug' in their denials was proof enough of their guilt.

Condemned in such an equivocal manner that many senior members of his own party felt the need to distance themselves from his statement in parliament. Quite an extraordinary move, im sure you will agree.

[One Day Soon]

You could add the best bits of Corbyn, Johnson and May together and you still wouldn't be able to make an adequate Prime Minister let alone a good one. Putin must be pi55ing himself laughing.

He's just delivered a huge election leaflet dressed up as an attempted assassination and the best we can come up with is May's inadequate sanctions and Corbyn's weak response.

It's like watching two village idiots fighting over who should be in Mensa.

Russia is tooled up and already well into an advanced programme of asymmetric warfare with the West and its major institutions. Meanwhile we are divided within and between countries, badly led all round, hesitant about our role in the world, angry about our last major conflict and facing the proximity to power of extreme politics and politicians in many countries.

Paging a political version of ****ing Batman.

[hibsbollah]

Condemned in such an equivocal manner that many senior members of his own party felt the need to distance themselves from his statement in parliament. Quite an extraordinary move, im sure you will agree.

Some MPs hold with the Westminster tradition of always giving public backing to the PM in all matters of foreign policy, on the basis that not doing so gives 'succour to the enemy'. (Yvette Cooper, who I respect a lot on housing policy but consistently votes for things like the Iraq War, and voted against an investigation into the Iraq war, falls into this category). Congratulating May for the speech seemed a bit OTT to me but there you go. Some others like that Woodcock guy in Barrow are clearly doing it because they want to give their leader a kicking. It's still a divided party underneath the surface.

But this is going off topic onto the Labour Party, about which there are already plenty of threads.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You could add the best bits of Corbyn, Johnson and May together and you still wouldn't be able to make an adequate Prime Minister let alone a good one. Putin must be pi55ing himself laughing.

He's just delivered a huge election leaflet dressed up as an attempted assassination and the best we can come up with is May's inadequate sanctions and Corbyn's weak response.

It's like watching two village idiots fighting over who should be in Mensa.

Russia is tooled up and already well into an advanced programme of asymmetric warfare with the West and its major institutions. Meanwhile we are divided within and between countries, badly led all round, hesitant about our role in the world, angry about our last major conflict and facing the proximity to power of extreme politics and politicians in many countries.

Paging a political version of ****ing Batman.

It is slightly worrying i agree, and shows why in the absence of an EU with any foreign policy clout, and a britain snd france near the bottom of historic decline, the need for strong US leadership is vital.

The great power dynamics are definitely in russia's favour at the moment, and they are exploiting it.

Regardless of Brexit (and despite it) it shows how important it is that tge west stays strong and powerful, to fend off the threat of a resurgent, nationalist and increasingly expansionist russia.

In hindsight, i wonder if using force to defend Georgia all thosr years ago woyld have been the correct move, to show putin the limits of the west's patience and to give him a bloody nose earlier?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Some MPs hold with the Westminster tradition of always giving public backing to the PM in all matters of foreign policy, on the basis that not doing so gives 'succour to the enemy'. (Yvette Cooper, who I respect a lot on housing policy but consistently votes for things like the Iraq War, and voted against an investigation into the Iraq war, falls into this category). Congratulating May for the speech seemed a bit OTT to me but there you go. Some others like that Woodcock guy in Barrow are clearly doing it because they want to give their leader a kicking. It's still a divided party underneath the surface.

But this is going off topic onto the Labour Party, about which there are already plenty of threads.

Fair points, but corbyn is just as much a mirror image of those, instinctively taking the contrarian, 'anti-establishment' view.

I can understand, and even sympathise with it when it is the underdog, or a 'terrorist' organisation fighting for something that has some merit, but this is neither.

And given his personal history, which already counts against him electorally, his was a stupid move, and hints at the very anti-british attitudes that so many suspect him of, amd that his supporters constantly try to refute.

Also, as leader of HM Opposition, i think he is entitled to have info and briefings that are confidential, and so he should habe access to much of the info that is apparently compelling enough for tge US, France and Germany to be convinced by.

[ronaldo7]

Or just start here: https://twitter.com/corbyn50plus/status/974011990254538754

For a bit of good old British fairness and balance. :wink:

https://t.co/VrYAL41tsa

[hibsbollah]

While I'm not saying the Russians DIDNT do it, they probably did, the 'recipe' for making the alleged nerve agent is apparently freely available to anyone, all you need to do is go on amazon, and buy the whistle-blower Mirzayanovs book on the Russians weapons programme, in which he details the chemical compounds required, and also says it is relatively simple to do. Strange.

[ronaldo7]

No, no. Clyde Davies, most governments in the West and you are wrong.

An ex-ambassador to Uzbekistan and a Canadian lawyer are right.

I've not seen that mentioned on here yet, apart from by you, of course. 😉

[ronaldo7]

While I'm not saying the Russians DIDNT do it, they probably did, The 'recipe' for making the alleged nerve agent is apparently freely available to anyone, all you need to do is go on amazon, and buy the whistle-blower Mirzayanovs book on the Russians weapons programme, in which he details the chemical compounds required, and also says it is relatively simple to do. Strange.

Watch out now, you'll get hung for asking questions, just like, Corbyn.

[ronaldo7]

While I'm not saying the Russians DIDNT do it, they probably did, the 'recipe' for making the alleged nerve agent is apparently freely available to anyone, all you need to do is go on amazon, and buy the whistle-blower Mirzayanovs book on the Russians weapons programme, in which he details the chemical compounds required, and also says it is relatively simple to do. Strange.

The UK gov could have had the Russians bagged, if only they'd adhered to international conventions, and sent a sample to the Russians and the OPCW.

I wonder why they didn't.

[hibsbollah]

Watch out now, you'll get hung for asking questions, just like, Corbyn.

Ask no questions!!

[ronaldo7]

Ask no questions!!

"Frankly Russia should go away, it should shut up" - UK Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson asked about Russia's response to its diplomats being expelled.

😂😂

[One Day Soon]

For a bit of good old British fairness and balance. :wink:

https://t.co/VrYAL41tsa


Craig Murray, bless.

There will be a perfectly respectable (but wrong) counter position to the view that Russia did it. Wherever that position is to be found it won't be in any proximity to Craig Murray.

[marinello59]

10/10 for misrepresentation. What a ****ing country we live in, the leader of the opposition condemns whoever carried out the attack, asks what response Putin gave to the allegations, and points out that cuts to the diplomatic service probably didn't help matters, and he gets portrayed by the usual suspects as some sort of apologist.

Edit: Corbyns op-ed piece in the guardian. Hardly pro Russian, is it?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/15/salisbury-attack-conflict-britain-cold-war

An amazing speech from our esteemed foreign secretary this afternoon. In his world, just the fact that the Russians 'sounded smug' in their denials was proof enough of their guilt.

Corbyn got it right for me. The reaction of so many of his back benchers was disappointing.

[johnbc70]

For a bit of good old British fairness and balance. :wink:

https://t.co/VrYAL41tsa

Is this the guy that called No voters "either evil, or quite extraordinary thick". That's a good way to win them over. Maybe he should stand for election, oh he did...

Also the man who believes in 'false flag' events by the security forces to destabilise the SNP.

So yes a perfectly balanced article written by a pragmatic individual.

[PeeJay]

"Frankly Russia should go away, it should shut up" - UK Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson asked about Russia's response to its diplomats being expelled.

😂😂

Not very diplomatic of the UK Defence Secretary ... but then

Pyotr Tolstoy - Deputy Speaker of the Duma - on the BBC's "Today" show this morning - "... you're dealing with a "Great Power" here - even if the UK cuts off diplomatic relations with Russia, it doesn't matter: we don't give a damn!

[marinello59]

Watch out now, you'll get hung for asking questions, just like, Corbyn.

Sturgeon has fallen in behind May nicely though .

[ronaldo7]

Sturgeon has fallen in behind May nicely though .

Ah, you're back. Care to answer my question to you on the sectarian thread on the main board, you may have missed it.

[marinello59]

Ah, you're back. Care to answer my question to you on the sectarian thread on the main board, you may have missed it.

Probably. I don’t read most of your posts any more. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Probably. I don’t read most of your posts any more. :greengrin

👌

[ronaldo7]

Is this the guy that called No voters "either evil, or quite extraordinary thick". That's a good way to win them over. Maybe he should stand for election, oh he did...

Also the man who believes in 'false flag' events by the security forces to destabilise the SNP.

So yes a perfectly balanced article written by a pragmatic individual.

I wouldn't say it was balanced. More of a response on a twitter thread, but if you feel it's balanced, all well and good.

[IGRIGI]

Cringetastic watching May and co give it the billy big man act.

So much for this big important strong UK we were meant to remove our baws for and vote no to stay within, Russia's pissing itself while our big man act amounts to pissing against the wind.

As for the Craig Murray article, if you remove the yoon nae baws specs for a second you'll see he's spot on.

[One Day Soon]

Cringetastic watching May and co give it the billy big man act.

So much for this big important strong UK we were meant to remove our baws for and vote no to stay within, Russia's pissing itself while our big man act amounts to pissing against the wind.

As for the Craig Murray article, if you remove the yoon nae baws specs for a second you'll see he's spot on.


'yoon nae baws specs' - that's a new one. Never seen Nicola Sturgeon described that way before.

[snooky]

"Frankly Russia should go away, it should shut up" - UK Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson asked about Russia's response to its diplomats being expelled.

😂😂

Are you listening Mr Putin? Gav the Chav has spoken. :worried:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Cringetastic watching May and co give it the billy big man act.

So much for this big important strong UK we were meant to remove our baws for and vote no to stay within, Russia's pissing itself while our big man act amounts to pissing against the wind.

As for the Craig Murray article, if you remove the yoon nae baws specs for a second you'll see he's spot on.

😁

[One Day Soon]

That Seamus Milne narrative in full as delivered by this week’s Jackanory presenter, Jeremy Corbyn:

Wednesday: We can’t be sure who did it and we need the evidence. Please don’t find any evidence.
Thursday: I’m saying the Russians probably did it, the expulsions are correct even though we haven’t seen the evidence I wanted to wait for just yesterday. Crap, I wish I was better at this.
Friday: No wait, we need more evidence – we don’t know which Russians did it. We must give our security services (the one ones that we already said we don’t trust because WMD and Iraq) time to prove that Russia didn’t do it. Plus did I mention Iraq?
Saturday: Can you hang on a minute, I’ve got Seamus on the line. He says we haven’t seen any evidence yet that Israel didn’t do it.
Sunday: It’s Tony Blair’s fault because Iraq
Monday: Iraq. Iraq. Iraq.


Next week's presenter will be Theresa May reading the Omnibus edition of 101 different Tory perspectives on Brexit, none of which she believes.

1st April, special constitution edition featuring Nicola Sturgeon and 'The Indyref 2 That Never Was'. A collection of comforting never ending crisis short stories for marching troops up and down hills.

[JeMeSouviens]

That Seamus Milne narrative in full as delivered by this week’s Jackanory presenter, Jeremy Corbyn:

Wednesday: We can’t be sure who did it and we need the evidence. Please don’t find any evidence.
Thursday: I’m saying the Russians probably did it, the expulsions are correct even though we haven’t seen the evidence I wanted to wait for just yesterday. Crap, I wish I was better at this.
Friday: No wait, we need more evidence – we don’t know which Russians did it. We must give our security services (the one ones that we already said we don’t trust because WMD and Iraq) time to prove that Russia didn’t do it. Plus did I mention Iraq?
Saturday: Can you hang on a minute, I’ve got Seamus on the line. He says we haven’t seen any evidence yet that Israel didn’t do it.
Sunday: It’s Tony Blair’s fault because Iraq
Monday: Iraq. Iraq. Iraq.


Next week's presenter will be Theresa May reading the Omnibus edition of 101 different Tory perspectives on Brexit, none of which she believes.

1st April, special constitution edition featuring Nicola Sturgeon and 'The Indyref 2 That Never Was'. A collection of comforting never ending crisis short stories for marching troops up and down hills.

An iScotland would be watching this **** show from the sidelines taking a collective stance with our European partners. Might make **** all difference to the geopolitics but not being associated with Corbyn's tank fetishes or BoJo's latest ********ry would be just lovely.

[heretoday]

Instead of coming out with a string of pathetic responses we should keep the upper lip stiff and pull England out of the World Cup. If enough European nations do likewise it might just inflict a blow to Putin.

[snooky]

Instead of coming out with a string of pathetic responses we should keep the upper lip stiff and pull England out of the World Cup. If enough European nations do likewise it might just inflict a blow to Putin.

And the coup-de-grace is the Royals aren't going either. Take that, Ruskies. BIFF! :take that

[heretoday]

And the coup-de-grace is the Royals aren't going either. Take that, Ruskies. BIFF! :take that

Well,short of lobbing a weapon at them I can only see gestures like that hurting them.

[snooky]

Instead of coming out with a string of pathetic responses we should keep the upper lip stiff and pull England out of the World Cup. If enough European nations do likewise it might just inflict a blow to Putin.

Ah but, Scotland said they wurny going first :na na:

[hibsbollah]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2018/mar/16/boycott-world-cup-russia-royal-family

Good article from the excellent Mr Ronay.

[Colr]

The two deaths may well be Russian mafiosi especially as the second bloke apparently owed them a few million.

Remember that dodgy Scottish property developer who ended up impaled on spikes in Marylebone?

If so the government may look pretty silly. I suppose what they are banking on is that Putin is seen as a part of the Russian criminal aristocracy so can be tied tomtheir actions.

[johnbc70]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2018/mar/16/boycott-world-cup-russia-royal-family

Good article from the excellent Mr Ronay.

In terms of the Royals and World Cup he is spot on, I had to double check that Stephen Kinnock did suggest what he did as I never quite believed it, but it's true. What a fool.

[ronaldo7]

The truth is out there somewhere, I just don't think we've heard it from our UK gov at the moment.

Why wouldn't they put the whole thing to bed and get the samples analysed independently. Something to hide?

As I said at the start of this whole sorry debacle, more questions than answers.

https://t.co/tUgs5RzfBa

https://www.rt.com/news/421340-uk-block-un-skripal/

[PeeJay]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2018/mar/16/boycott-world-cup-russia-royal-family

Good article from the excellent Mr Ronay.

An interesting perspective certainly but the article doesn't convince me - Not a monarchist myself, BUT Putin-Russia is using the World Cup to hopefully give the country an appearance of a welcoming, friendly and outward looking nation, so a high-level party of Royals, etc. in Moscow would also have helped them achieve a level of acceptance and respect the country and Putin so desperately crave. The PR value of a royal visit shouldn't be underestimated.

I think a boycott of the World Cup by the English team is as highly unlikely, but - if it happened - it would effectively spoil any hopes of Russia achieving its desire to be accepted as a "great" and "worthy" nation deserving of "respect" ...

[One Day Soon]

The truth is out there somewhere, I just don't think we've heard it from our UK gov at the moment.

Why wouldn't they put the whole thing to bed and get the samples analysed independently. Something to hide?

As I said at the start of this whole sorry debacle, more questions than answers.

https://t.co/tUgs5RzfBa

https://www.rt.com/news/421340-uk-block-un-skripal/


If you're going to pray Russia Today in aid you might as well just post Kremlin press releases.

Unless you think that the UK government, the French, the Germans, the US, Donald Trump, Nicola Sturgeon and even - depending which day of the week it is - Jeremy Corbyn are all wrong in accepting the Russians were responsible.

[One Day Soon]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2018/mar/16/boycott-world-cup-russia-royal-family

Good article from the excellent Mr Ronay.

It's an interesting article but I would have been in favour of staying away from the World Cup anyway, The abuse of human rights generally, particularly LGBT, and a whole host of other systematic internal and external abuses is enough to convince me that we shouldn't be lending credibility to a gangster state by participating in the appearance of normality.

Apartheid South Africa got that treatment - rightly - and the same should apply in this case.

I think Ronay's comments on Southgate come across a bit twattish. That part has the feel more of pandering to the Guardian readership's view of the world than it does a fair assessment of how Southgate conducts himself. I think Ronay lets himself down there.

Boy does he get Kinnock right though.

[hibsbollah]

What's the reason for boycott? Is it solely this poisoning? Is it human rights? Blocking the legislature? Racism? Gay bashing? There are plenty of objectionable régimes around the world, and certainly few more objectionable than Argentina in the late 1970s. Any objective analysis would make that junta far more murderous than Putins regime. Do those that think 'we' should boycott Russia 2018 also think Scotland should have stayed away in Argentina 78? I certainly can't recall any calls for boycotting then. If you are old enough, and didn't think so then, why not? lt surely can't be about 'human rights'. Or do you think the situations aren't comparable?

Qatar is allegedly funding international terrorism and has built its economy on slave labour. I bet its not great being gay there either. Calls for a boycott of that one too?

[hibsbollah]

It's an interesting article but I would have been in favour of staying away from the World Cup anyway, The abuse of human rights generally, particularly LGBT, and a whole host of other systematic internal and external abuses is enough to convince me that we shouldn't be lending credibility to a gangster state by participating in the appearance of normality.

Apartheid South Africa got that treatment - rightly - and the same should apply in this case.

I think Ronay's comments on Southgate come across a bit twattish. That part has the feel more of pandering to the Guardian readership's view of the world than it does a fair assessment of how Southgate conducts himself. I think Ronay lets himself down there.

Boy does he get Kinnock right though.

I think you're misreading his Southgate comments, I read it as a funny caricature of his weariness at the weakness of his squad. It didn't seem particularly vicious to me.

[One Day Soon]

What's the reason for boycott? Is it solely this poisoning? Is it human rights? Blocking the legislature? Racism? Gay bashing? There are plenty of objectionable régimes around the world, and certainly few more objectionable than Argentina in the late 1970s. Any objective analysis would make that junta far more murderous than Putins regime. Do those that think 'we' should boycott Russia 2018 also think Scotland should have stayed away in Argentina 78? I certainly can't recall any calls for boycotting then. If you are old enough, and didn't think so then, why not? lt surely can't be about 'human rights'. Or do you think the situations aren't comparable?

Qatar is allegedly funding international terrorism and has built its economy on slave labour. I bet its not great being gay there either. Calls for a boycott of that one too?


Not simply the poisoning, the entire catalogue of abuses in almost every arena and the now protracted mosaic of interference in a wide range of Western nations and institutions. In my view we are already in an advanced Cold War and their joyriding, if unchecked, threatens serious global deterioration.

There are plenty of objectionable regimes and if we are remotely interested in trying to grapple with them we need horses for courses. Different sanctions appropriate to each context. The World Cup is a gigantic PR opportunity and we should not in my view (by which I mean England) be indulging that.

I doubt very much the Argentinian junta was more murderous - Russia is certainly running extremely high numbers now taking internal and external victims into account. In any event I had no view at that time, I was 13 and my political consciousness wasn't raised until 1981 at which time I joined a political party when I was 17. It's difficult to project backwards from here because it is such a different world and of course we can't change what was happening then, whereas we can perhaps have an impact on what is happening now. My Grandparents and my father lived in the Argentine for many years and I can recall them talking of disappeared and intimidated friends at the time (similarly with Spain under Franco) - but I don't think I can remember any discussion of boycotts or sanctions. Just a hope that the regime would fall or be toppled. Perhaps the nature of political intervention has evolved since then. As you can imagine, the Falklands War was a conflicted time too.

Qatar should not be hosting a World Cup for a whole host of reasons. And I think that unless we are imaginative and determined about our soft power options with dictatorships and gangster states in the world we end up with madmen who become more and more emboldened until we are left with the choice of either armed intervention or simply standing back and watching it unfold uncontrollably.

Put the question a different way - should there have been no boycott of South Africa for all the contexts you mention above? I don't think so.

[One Day Soon]

I think you're misreading his Southgate comments, I read it as a funny caricature of his weariness at the weakness of his squad. It didn't seem particularly vicious to me.

"he still approaches each squad announcement, each meaningless double-header, with the funereal self importance of a man convinced English success or failure is in some way the defining note of all human endeavour"


That reads like inaccurate pandering to his Guardian audience rather than caricature to me. Maybe its just me.

[hibsbollah]

Put the question a different way - should there have been no boycott of South Africa for all the contexts you mention above? I don't think so.

Apartheid South Africa is, to me at least, a special case, which puts it beyond any any comparable nation. If you can argue Putins Russia, or The Argentinian junta, is authoritarian and murderous, you can make the same argument about dozens of countries, some of whom are our 'friends'.
Apartheids whole existence, written into their constitution, was based on a disgusting raison d'être of racial subjugation. I don't think there's been a comparable example since Pol Pot.

You've know got me thinking now, however, if I would support sending a Scottish team in an Israeli or North Korean world cup.

[One Day Soon]

Apartheid South Africa is, to me at least, a special case, which puts it beyond any any comparable nation. If you can argue Putins Russia, or The Argentinian junta, is authoritarian and murderous, you can make the same argument about dozens of countries, some of whom are our 'friends'.
Apartheids whole existence, written into their constitution, was based on a disgusting raison d'être of racial subjugation. I don't think there's been a comparable example since Pol Pot.

You've know got me thinking now, however, if I would support sending a Scottish team in an Israeli or North Korean world cup.


Hell of a test of principles. Scotland finally qualify for a World Cup and it's somewhere where the possibility of boycotting is worth serious debate. Nightmare.

[ronaldo7]

If you're going to pray Russia Today in aid you might as well just post Kremlin press releases.

Unless you think that the UK government, the French, the Germans, the US, Donald Trump, Nicola Sturgeon and even - depending which day of the week it is - Jeremy Corbyn are all wrong in accepting the Russians were responsible.

It might have been Russians, maybe not the Russian state though. You don't know do you, unless I've missed something.

It doesn't matter which day of the week it is, Monday to Sunday, were still waiting on proof, unless they're going to unveil it on the eighth day.

Believers gonna keep believing.

[Pretty Boy]

In shocking news Putin wins the election with 75% of the vote. With the main opposition candidate banned from standing it is actually a shock it wasn't a higher percentage.

A victory for democracy......

[RyeSloan]

In shocking news Putin wins the election with 75% of the vote. With the main opposition candidate banned from standing it is actually a shock it wasn't a higher percentage.

A victory for democracy......

Just as well we have MI5 pulling dodgy nerve agent false flag attacks to discredit Putin otherwise I would have assumed this was a genuine victory.

[Jim44]

Irrespective of who perpetrated the crime, the job was really amateur and botched. With a lethal , and, you would think, infallible weapon at their disposal, they failed miserably to accomplish their mission. The two victims are now reported to be in a critical but stable condition.

[overdrive]

Irrespective of who perpetrated the crime, the job was really amateur and botched. With a lethal , and, you would think, infallible weapon at their disposal, they failed miserably to accomplish their mission. The two victims are now reported to be in a critical but stable condition.

Where’s that getting reported? I just read that the authorities went to court today to enable them to get blood samples from the two victims as they were unable to give permission as they were still in comas.

[Jim44]

Where’s that getting reported? I just read that the authorities went to court today to enable them to get blood samples from the two victims as they were unable to give permission as they were still in comas.

It was repeated on the BBC news but they kind of qualified it saying that despite the ‘stable’ condition, they might never recover. My original point still stands as, despite using a deadly poison, they still botched it up.

[Hibrandenburg]

It was repeated on the BBC news but they kind of qualified it saying that despite the ‘stable’ condition, they might never recover. My original point still stands as, despite using a deadly poison, they still botched it up.

It was definitely Budged. As unlikely as it sounds that was probably due to the perpetrators attempts at minimising collateral casualties. If they didn't care about collateral then 100's could have died.

[Bristolhibby]

Where’s that getting reported? I just read that the authorities went to court today to enable them to get blood samples from the two victims as they were unable to give permission as they were still in comas.

Medically, if you are not deteriorating, you are stable.

****** in a coma, but not getting worse, is critical, but stable.

J

[SChibs]

So far nobody in the 'Russia did it camp' has came up with a reason why Russia would do it.

Obvious question I'll get back is why would the UK do it. Well why would anyone carry out a false flag attack? To portray someone in bad light. Best way to control people is through fear, you tell someone they are being attacked and you will save them and they listen to you without question.

I'm not even sure Russia made novichoks initially like people are claiming. I think they were produced in the USSR but in Uzbekistan

[johnbc70]

So far nobody in the 'Russia did it camp' has came up with a reason why Russia would do it.

Obvious question I'll get back is why would the UK do it. Well why would anyone carry out a false flag attack? To portray someone in bad light. Best way to control people is through fear, you tell someone they are being attacked and you will save them and they listen to you without question.

I'm not even sure Russia made novichoks initially like people are claiming. I think they were produced in the USSR but in Uzbekistan

Was the reason not he was an ex spy, who in their mind betrayed his country so they wanted him dead.

If you mean proof then is there proof it was not the Russians? If it smells like *****, looks like ***** then it's normally *****.

[marinello59]

So far nobody in the 'Russia did it camp' has came up with a reason why Russia would do it.

Obvious question I'll get back is why would the UK do it. Well why would anyone carry out a false flag attack? To portray someone in bad light. Best way to control people is through fear, you tell someone they are being attacked and you will save them and they listen to you without question.

I'm not even sure Russia made novichoks initially like people are claiming. I think they were produced in the USSR but in Uzbekistan

And it looks like the rest of the EU are in on this attempt by the UK Government to control us by fear. Why is that?

[Hiber-nation]

People are saying there's no evidence it was Russia simply because Theresa May said it was Russia.

[overdrive]

And it looks like the rest of the EU are in on this attempt by the UK Government to control us by fear. Why is that?

Because all governments are out to get us in the most underhand, sly and thuggish ways possible. It’s why every politician gets into politics. Except of course, Russia and that lovely chap Vlad (Putin, not Romanov). They and he tell the truth and are too nice to kill anyone.

I said it before on this thread, if the UK did this (whether that is the government or the security services), why are they risking the two victims making any sort of recovery and telling the truth and not just bump them off and finish the job?

[hibsbollah]

People are saying there's no evidence it was Russia simply because Theresa May said it was Russia.

I think people are getting evidence and proof muddled up.
And also getting fact and opinion muddled up. There is no proof. Nobody disputes this, not even the UK Government. None of this confused and partial debate is really that important, until it actually gets beyond a point of no return and leads to a war.

[snooky]

It was definitely Budged. As unlikely as it sounds that was probably due to the perpetrators attempts at minimising collateral casualties. If they didn't care about collateral then 100's could have died.

A very good point, Hibrandenburg. Definitely food for thought there.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

So far nobody in the 'Russia did it camp' has came up with a reason why Russia would do it.

Obvious question I'll get back is why would the UK do it. Well why would anyone carry out a false flag attack? To portray someone in bad light. Best way to control people is through fear, you tell someone they are being attacked and you will save them and they listen to you without question.

I'm not even sure Russia made novichoks initially like people are claiming. I think they were produced in the USSR but in Uzbekistan

Really?

I could give you a couple of reasons, backed up by reason and recent historical precedent.

Because they wanted to send a message (to other defectors, to Putin's critics living in the UK, to his own people and possiblu to his own spy agencies). And because its worked for him in the past.

To sow discord and because he could, in the semse of a hubristic, aggressive and expansionist nationalist who is increasingly emboldened by the west's indulgence and appeasement of him.

Can you give a single reason why the UK would want to do it? They dont need to try and make the russians look bad, they do a good enough job of that on their own without the skripal case.

Waging aggessive war on a neighbour, occupying neighbours territory, propping-up a fairly brutal dictator, banned from olympics, etc etc

[JimBHibees]

Really?

I could give you a couple of reasons, backed up by reason and recent historical precedent.

Because they wanted to send a message (to other defectors, to Putin's critics living in the UK, to his own people and possiblu to his own spy agencies). And because its worked for him in the past.

To sow discord and because he could, in the semse of a hubristic, aggressive and expansionist nationalist who is increasingly emboldened by the west's indulgence and appeasement of him.

Can you give a single reason why the UK would want to do it? They dont need to try and make the russians look bad, they do a good enough job of that on their own without the skripal case.

Waging aggessive war on a neighbour, occupying neighbours territory, propping-up a fairly brutal dictator, banned from olympics, etc etc

Why would U.K want to do it? To deflect from a weak governmental position re brexit. Classic deflection

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Why would U.K want to do it? To deflect from a weak governmental position re brexit. Classic deflection

Do you really believe that?

That our govt would use chemical weapons on its own soil, risk international confrontation with a nuclear superpower, and cause itself endless diplomatic and security problems, to deflect from a couple of days of brexit headlines, when we habe had 18 mths of bad brexit headlines and will have a couple more years of them?

[Beefster]

Why would U.K want to do it? To deflect from a weak governmental position re brexit. Classic deflection

Behave.

[SChibs]

Why would U.K want to do it? To deflect from a weak governmental position re brexit. Classic deflection

Wholeheartedly agree

[SChibs]

Behave.

Did the BBC tell you otherwise?

[marinello59]

And it looks like the rest of the EU are in on this attempt by the UK Government to control us by fear. Why is that?


Why would U.K want to do it? To deflect from a weak governmental position re brexit. Classic deflection


Wholeheartedly agree

Ok, want to join the dots on this one samcrowe?

[SChibs]

Ok, want to join the dots on this one samcrowe?

They want to scare you

[SChibs]

Do you really believe that?

That our govt would use chemical weapons on its own soil, risk international confrontation with a nuclear superpower, and cause itself endless diplomatic and security problems, to deflect from a couple of days of brexit headlines, when we habe had 18 mths of bad brexit headlines and will have a couple more years of them?

Yes entirely

[marinello59]

They want to scare you
So by your thinking the UK goverment wants to deflect attention from Brexit by scaring us with the backing of the rest of the EU. Care to explain why the other EU nations are complicit in this?

[SChibs]

The government count on you not believing they do such a thing. Of course they ****ing would. The Tories don't care about anyone but themselves at the end of the day

[SChibs]

So by your thinking the UK goverment wants to deflect attention from Brexit by scaring us with the backing of the rest of the EU. Care to explain why the other EU nations are complicit in this?

Controlled by the same organisation. Like I said if it was Russia it would be done much more discreetly than what happened

[Moulin Yarns]

The government count on you not believing they do such a thing. Of course they ****ing would. The Tories don't care about anyone but themselves at the end of the day

How do you know that the victims aren't tory voters?

[SChibs]

How do you know that the victims aren't tory voters?

They simply dont care. But this is much bigger than that

[Moulin Yarns]

They simply dont care. But this is much bigger than that

You said that the Tories only care about themselves. I am asking the question, how do you know that the victims aren't tory voters? For all you know they could be financial backers of the tories. They might also be UKIP voters though.

[marinello59]

Controlled by the same organisation. Like I said if it was Russia it would be done much more discreetly than what happened

Eh? You have agreed that this is part of a ploy to deflect from Brexit..So why are the Other EU nations backing the UK.

[SChibs]

Eh? You have agreed that this is part of a ploy to deflect from Brexit..So why are the Other EU nations backing the UK.

As I said.

[Hibrandenburg]

Worth a read before you all go wasting your energy.

https://www.google.de/amp/bigthink.com/ideafeed/use-empathy-before-facts-when-debating-a-conspiracy-theorist.amp

[One Day Soon]

Eh? You have agreed that this is part of a ploy to deflect from Brexit..So why are the Other EU nations backing the UK.

Someone needs to ask the obvious Luciferian question here.

[One Day Soon]

They simply dont care. But this is much bigger than that

What's that you say Mulder?

[Hibrandenburg]

Someone needs to ask the obvious Luciferian question here.

You're bad. :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

Someone needs to ask the obvious Luciferian question here.

... 'Better the devil you know' is the answer here :agree:

[Beefster]

Did the BBC tell you otherwise?

No, I read ‘Voodoo Histories’ this one time. Give it a bash.

[Pretty Boy]

Controlled by the same organisation. Like I said if it was Russia it would be done much more discreetly than what happened

Where the Russians particularly discreet when they killed Litvinenko?

To save you looking the answer is no.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Yes entirely

Fair enough, if you believe it then you believe it, but i woyld suggest you need to give the tin foil hat a rest.

[overdrive]

Controlled by the same organisation. Like I said if it was Russia it would be done much more discreetly than what happened

I wondered when the NWO/Bilderberg/Illuminati type stuff would rear its head on this thread.

Despite the Tories having some reprehensible characters, I really doubt any of them would be this brutal towards their own people, particularly Theresa May. I also fail to see why something like this would help them with Bexit. I think it would push more people to be against Brexit through the theory of safety in numbers. If, on the very slim chance that the UK state did have something to do with it, it is far more likely to be the intelligence community than a political figure who is behind it.

Why would Trump go against his puppet master by expelling lots of Russian diplomats if there was no real evidence?

[snooky]

Someone sent me this today. Please note, I'm not trying to deflect away from any of the horror stories mentioned above (whether they are true or otherwise) however, I do think this is worth a look -->

20462

[Jim44]

Someone sent me this today. Please note, I'm not trying to deflect away from any of the horror stories mentioned above (whether they are true or otherwise) however, I do think this is worth a look -->

20462

Inarguably a beautiful monument, but gifted by ‘the Russian people’ ? .......... are they the same people who, on the surface, purport to support and revere Putin, when in fact they are terrified of him ( shades of North Korea and ‘rocket man’) and his thuggish regime or was the monument perversely and cynically donated by the thug, himself?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Someone sent me this today. Please note, I'm not trying to deflect away from any of the horror stories mentioned above (whether they are true or otherwise) however, I do think this is worth a look -->

20462

I dont know why, but i find it unfortunate that photo has a bloody great aircraft carrier in the background!

[snooky]

I dont know why, but i find it unfortunate that photo has a bloody great aircraft carrier in the background!
I would agree that it does jar with the sentiment.
Maybe it's just the usual subtle way the US tries to send out a subliminal message?

[RyeSloan]

I would agree that it does jar with the sentiment.
Maybe it's just the usual subtle way the US tries to send out a subliminal message?

Not entirely sure a hulking great aircraft carrier is subliminal to be honest [emoji23]

[Beefster]

I would agree that it does jar with the sentiment.
Maybe it's just the usual subtle way the US tries to send out a subliminal message?

Even the cruise operators are at it.

20484

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I would agree that it does jar with the sentiment.
Maybe it's just the usual subtle way the US tries to send out a subliminal message?

Yeah, hard not to come to that conclusion, which is a shame given the sentiment.

Of course, a cynical readig always was that putin loved the west's war on terror as it gave him a free pass on flattening the 'islamic extremists' in Chechnya...

[snooky]

Not entirely sure a hulking great aircraft carrier is subliminal to be honest [emoji23]

Whoosh!

[RyeSloan]

Whoosh!

Ahh too subliminal for me ;-)

[One Day Soon]

I would agree that it does jar with the sentiment.
Maybe it's just the usual subtle way the US tries to send out a subliminal message?


As opposed to Russia's subtlety in bombing Syria to crap and taking people out on UK streets?

Just saying.

[snooky]

As opposed to Russia's subtlety in bombing Syria to crap and taking people out on UK streets?

Just saying.

Neighbourhood bullies - both sides.

[One Day Soon]

Neighbourhood bullies - both sides.

Stop posting things that I want to agree with. It's confusing.

[snooky]

Stop posting things that I want to agree with. It's confusing.

:angelic: :greengrin