Suspected Murder of Russians

[Hibbyradge]

I must say that if "the Tories" have managed to fool the world's intelligence services into thinking that it was the Ruskies wot done it, when in fact it was one of their own, they're much more resourceful and intelligent than I thought.

Maybe I've been supporting the wrong party(s) all along.

That sounds like just the sort of intellect we need at the top of Government.

Consider the consequences of being found out (or grassed).

26 countries around the world, plus NATO, have expelled Russian diplomats. They're going to be well pissed off if word gets out that it was just a tactic to gain support in the local elections in May.

And, there's the risk of being found out and blackmailed.

Some may say that their willingness to risk all that is foolhardy, but as we go boldly into Brexit, we need to face the future with courage. Fortune favours the brave after all.

It's New Zealand I feel sorry for. They couldn't find a Russian diplomat to expel.

Oh, and the ex-spy bloke. I hope he gets better.

[RyeSloan]

I must say that if "the Tories" have managed to fool the world's intelligence services into thinking that it was the Ruskies wot done it, when in fact it was one of their own, they're much more resourceful and intelligent than I thought.

Maybe I've been supporting the wrong party(s) all along.

That sounds like just the sort of intellect we need at the top of Government.

Consider the consequences of being found out (or grassed).

26 countries around the world, plus NATO, have expelled Russian diplomats. They're going to be well pissed off if word gets out that it was just a tactic to gain support in the local elections in May.

And, there's the risk of being found out and blackmailed.

Some may say that their willingness to risk all that is foolhardy, but as we go boldly into Brexit, we need to face the future with courage. Fortune favours the brave after all.

It's New Zealand I feel sorry for. They couldn't find a Russian diplomat to expel.

Oh, and the ex-spy bloke. I hope he gets better.

I’m curious as to where the Diplomats go after being expelled...and what constitutes a ‘Diplomat’ anyway?

[Bristolhibby]

As opposed to Russia's subtlety in bombing Syria to crap and taking people out on UK streets?

Just saying.

UK = bombs Syria
USA = bombs Syria
France = bombs Syria
Australia = bombs Syria
Russia = bombs Syria
Assad = bombs Syria
Turkey = bombs Syria (our Kurdish allies no less)
Israel = bombs Syria
Saudi Arabia = bombs Syria

[Bristolhibby]

I’m curious as to where the Diplomats go after being expelled...and what constitutes a ‘Diplomat’ anyway?

They go home to Russia.

Our diplomats will be foreign office civil servants with a smattering of MI6.

J

[RyeSloan]

They go home to Russia.

Our diplomats will be foreign office civil servants with a smattering of MI6.

J

Yeah I got that bit but they must be going home to a pretty rough job market!

Pretty tough if you were based in a big global capital for years then summarily booted out and back to Siberia.

[RyeSloan]

They go home to Russia.

Our diplomats will be foreign office civil servants with a smattering of MI6.

J

I have an imagine of a British diplomat being all pinstripe suit and bowler hat types that return to gloomy dark wood offices when they get booted back home [emoji23]

[overdrive]

Yeah I got that bit but they must be going home to a pretty rough job market!

Pretty tough if you were based in a big global capital for years then summarily booted out and back to Siberia.

They get redeployed to other jobs which can utilise their skills. They’re usually sent to other countries, even if that country is not their specialised language.

Edit: there was an article about it on the BBC recently explaining what happens.

[Hibbyradge]

They get redeployed to other jobs which can utilise their skills. They’re usually sent to other countries, even if that country is not their specialised language.

Edit: there was an article about it on the BBC recently explaining what happens.

There's hundreds of them this time.

Gardening leave beckons for a few, I reckon.

[One Day Soon]

UK = bombs Syria
USA = bombs Syria
France = bombs Syria
Australia = bombs Syria
Russia = bombs Syria
Assad = bombs Syria
Turkey = bombs Syria (our Kurdish allies no less)
Israel = bombs Syria
Saudi Arabia = bombs Syria

And your point is?

[The Pointer]

UK = bombs Syria
USA = bombs Syria
France = bombs Syria
Australia = bombs Syria
Russia = bombs Syria
Assad = bombs Syria
Turkey = bombs Syria (our Kurdish allies no less)
Israel = bombs Syria
Saudi Arabia = bombs Syria

The Russians (and Assad obviously) don't do 'precision strikes', they obliterate and move on. Hang collateral damage.

[Jim44]

It’s gone all quiet on the botched assassination front, despite the daughter’s ‘out of danger and improving’ status.

[hibsbollah]

It’s gone all quiet on the botched assassination front, despite the daughter’s ‘out of danger and improving’ status.

Porton Down unable to confirm source of novichok. Which does two things, 1. The whole 'Putins fingerprints are all over this' argument is now blown out of the water, and 2. The conspiracy theories about how the British government were going to concoct evidence to frame Russia has been similarly disproven.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/03/porton-down-experts-unable-to-verify-precise-source-of-novichok

So hopefully everything can now calm the **** down :agree:

[ronaldo7]

Porton Down unable to confirm source of novichok. Which does two things, 1. The whole 'Putins fingerprints are all over this' argument is now blown out of the water, and 2. The conspiracy theories about how the British government were going to concoct evidence to frame Russia has been similarly disproven.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/03/porton-down-experts-unable-to-verify-precise-source-of-novichok

So hopefully everything can now calm the **** down :agree:

This can't be right, we were told it was the Russians that did it, and the novichok is "all" theirs.

It's good reading, going back through the thread though 😂

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Porton Down unable to confirm source of novichok. Which does two things, 1. The whole 'Putins fingerprints are all over this' argument is now blown out of the water, and 2. The conspiracy theories about how the British government were going to concoct evidence to frame Russia has been similarly disproven.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/03/porton-down-experts-unable-to-verify-precise-source-of-novichok

So hopefully everything can now calm the **** down :agree:

I heard the guy from porton down on the radio, and what he daid was that they identified it, but they couldnt say where it came from. That was for other branches of govt to do, which they duly did, hence why the UK and 25 odd other governments around the world are convinced.

As i understand it, it was never porton downs job to solve the whole puzzle, anymore than a police lab would solve a crime - they provide what evidence they can and the police (or MI5 and MI6 in this case) add that evidence to other evidence they have from intelligence sources.

Or at least that was my understandig of it.

[One Day Soon]

I heard the guy from porton down on the radio, and what he daid was that they identified it, but they couldnt say where it came from. That was for other branches of govt to do, which they duly did, hence why the UK and 25 odd other governments around the world are convinced.

As i understand it, it was never porton downs job to solve the whole puzzle, anymore than a police lab would solve a crime - they provide what evidence they can and the police (or MI5 and MI6 in this case) add that evidence to other evidence they have from intelligence sources.

Or at least that was my understandig of it.


No, no. They're all just dupes being run as useful idiots at the beck and call of our brilliant government. :rolleyes:

The same government that's barely able to organise a Brexit piss-up in a brewery.

[Hibbyradge]

No, no. They're all just dupes being run as useful idiots at the beck and call of our brilliant government. :rolleyes:

The same government that's barely able to organise a Brexit piss-up in a brewery.

Exactly.

[ronaldo7]

This is getting very very messy.

A view from the other side. I wonder if Boris will last the week.

https://t.co/j9vBApJ205

[Hibbyradge]

This is getting very very messy.

A view from the other side. I wonder if Boris will last the week.

https://t.co/j9vBApJ205

Stop it, you tease.

:hyper

[ronaldo7]

Stop it, you tease.

:hyper

It was in her luggage, no, it was in the porridge, no, it was in the restaurant, no, it was on the park bench, no, it was in the car vents, no, it was on the door handle.

You couldn't make it up, or they just have. :wink:

[johnbc70]

I am not sure why some find the attempted murder of 3 people, one of them a servicing policeman so funny and a target for their own point scoring.

[snooky]

I am not sure why some find the attempted murder of 3 people, one of them a servicing policeman so funny and a target for their own point scoring.

It ain't funny - you're right.
In their defence, I think the posters are just trying to show what a bunch of idiots we have running the country.

[ronaldo7]

I am not sure why some find the attempted murder of 3 people, one of them a servicing policeman so funny and a target for their own point scoring.

Behave.

Nobody on here, as far as I can see, is taking this anything more than a very serious case. It's just a pity some can't see through the chaff from our own public servants.

I wonder who posted the numerous Policemen outside the front door of the house for three weeks, before finding the nerve agent on the door handle (if it ever was). Maybe they should be up for gross negligence.

[Beefster]

I wonder who posted the numerous Policemen outside the front door of the house for three weeks, before finding the nerve agent on the door handle (if it ever was). Maybe they should be up for gross negligence.

If you’ve got experience of being in charge of an investigation into attempted murder by nerve agent, you could have offered your services.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

This is exactly the problem with the internet and fake news.

It is the easiest thing in the world to sow doubt on the 'official' story with innuendo and half baked conspiracy theories. Its the intellectual equivalent of poisoning the well.

But of course there are some posters who deaperately want this to be the fault of the UK govt, and will propogate anything that fits with the narrative of the UK govt being, at the same time, brilliant but malicious masterminds capable of duping all her allies in an evil plot to pick a fight it cannot win, while also being hapless idiots who haven't a clue what they are doing.

[ronaldo7]

This is exactly the problem with the internet and fake news.

It is the easiest thing in the world to sow doubt on the 'official' story with innuendo and half baked conspiracy theories. Its the intellectual equivalent of poisoning the well.

But of course there are some posters who deaperately want this to be the fault of the Russian state, and will propogate anything that fits with the narrative of the Russian state, being, at the same time, brilliant but malicious masterminds capable of duping all her enemies, in an evil plot to pick a fight it cannot win, while also being hapless idiots who haven't a clue what they are doing.


Fixed that for you.


The propaganda machines are at full speed ahead on both sides.

[Hiber-nation]

Fixed that for you.
.

I know it should be on the pet peeves thread but that really is one of the most annoying things on this Board.

[One Day Soon]

If you’ve got experience of being in charge of an investigation into attempted murder by nerve agent, you could have offered your services.

You mean everything can't just be glibly dismissed with a :wink:?

[ronaldo7]

If you’ve got experience of being in charge of an investigation into attempted murder by nerve agent, you could have offered your services.

As the security services are Rolling out their next Russia bad story, and paste it on all of the broadsheets, and state broadcaster, for consumption by the masses, using their broad brush approach, painting a story some will swallow, I'll pass thanks.

:hnet:

[Beefster]

As the security services are Rolling out their next Russia bad story, and paste it on all of the broadsheets, and state broadcaster, for consumption by the masses, using their broad brush approach, painting a story some will swallow, I'll pass thanks.

:hnet:

I used to debate with conspiracy theorists about flat earth, 911, the moon landing etc. You remind me of those guys for some reason.

[One Day Soon]

I used to debate with conspiracy theorists about flat earth, 911, the moon landing etc. You remind me of those guys for some reason.

#Usepens

[snooky]

Re. Intelligence Services (& their like) on all sides.
I'm sure these guys play this 'game' at a far higher level than any of us average punters can envisage.
We only see what they want us to see.

[ronaldo7]

As the security services are Rolling out their next Russia bad story, and paste it on all of the broadsheets, and state broadcaster, for consumption by the masses, using their broad brush approach, painting a story some will swallow, I'll pass thanks.

:hnet:


I used to debate with conspiracy theorists about flat earth, 911, the moon landing etc. You remind me of those guys for some reason.

This is 21st century Britain, where people ask for evidence to be impartially provided, and are somehow flat earthers.

Too pepperami for ya.

:hnet:

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I know it should be on the pet peeves thread but that really is one of the most annoying things on this Board.

Very much so.

[G B Young]

I heard the guy from porton down on the radio, and what he daid was that they identified it, but they couldnt say where it came from. That was for other branches of govt to do, which they duly did, hence why the UK and 25 odd other governments around the world are convinced.

As i understand it, it was never porton downs job to solve the whole puzzle, anymore than a police lab would solve a crime - they provide what evidence they can and the police (or MI5 and MI6 in this case) add that evidence to other evidence they have from intelligence sources.

Or at least that was my understandig of it.

29 plus NATO.

Some mind-boggling stuff on this thread. The UK Government did it to deflect from Brexit?! :hilarious

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

29 plus NATO.

Some mind-boggling stuff on this thread. The UK Government did it to deflect from Brexit?! :hilarious

I think porton down also confirmed it was military grade and so only likely to have been produced by a nation state.

If only there was a nation state that invented it and was known to have stocks, had a reason to kill the guy, and had a history of similar style assasinations in the UK with impunity...

[johnbc70]

This is 21st century Britain, where people ask for evidence to be impartially provided, and are somehow flat earthers.

Too pepperami for ya.

:hnet:

Yet you believe every single word from Wings, without question. Although you seem to have gone off Wings these days and Russia Today is your new source of wisdom, cause the Kremlin funded television station will be totally impartial won't they.....

[Just Alf]

Yet you believe every single word from Wings, without question. Although you seem to have gone off Wings these days and Russia Today is your new source of wisdom, cause the Kremlin funded television station will be totally impartial won't they.....To be fair, as far as Wings goes he doesn't. He does point to places that they've themselves linked, some folks see Wings and then shoot the messenger down rather than debating the actual point.
It ends up looking simply like an SNP BAD argument when, in my opinion at least, there were some perfectly valid counter arguments that could have been raised.



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[snooky]

To be fair, as far as Wings goes he doesn't. He does point to places that they've themselves linked, some folks see Wings and then shoot the messenger down rather than debating the actual point.
It ends up looking simply like an SNP BAD argument when, in my opinion at least, there were some perfectly valid counter arguments that could have been raised.
Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

I try to read both sides and use my own judgement to evaluate where the truth probably lies (:greengrin didn't see that word play at first). My evaluation may be wrong of course but, I do try and be reasonably fair & objective with all the truth & BS that gets shovelled out.

[G B Young]

I think porton down also confirmed it was military grade and so only likely to have been produced by a nation state.

If only there was a nation state that invented it and was known to have stocks, had a reason to kill the guy, and had a history of similar style assasinations in the UK with impunity...

Indeed. What other reasonable conclusion could anyone come to, even without being privy to the information made available to the many nations who have expelled Russian diplomats?

Russia, of course, will never admit to it. When you have a ruler who has been in power for quarter of a century and 'wins' supposedly landslide election victories with an alleged 75% of the vote, you're not going to let some pesky poisoning accusations bring you down. Hence the barrage of indignant bombast emerging from the Russians in a bid to muddy the waters, whip up conspiracy theories and all sorts of associated nonsense (the sort of claptrap lapped up by the more madcap fringes of Corbyn's devotees). You could ask why more evidence isn't released to the public to show why Russia has been blamed, but presumably there are matters of security to consider, including the safety of UK personnel involved in the investigations.

In such circumstances, the day-to-day punter can only go with the standard of reasonable doubt deployed in criminal prosecutions ie 'that no other logical explanation can be derived from the facts'. Bottom line, who the hell else would it be?

Still amused by the claims on here that the UK government would actually cook up the poisoning of an obscure Russian spy in Salisbury as a tactic to deflect from Brexit :crazy:

[hibsbollah]

Indeed. What other reasonable conclusion could anyone come to, even without being privy to the information made available to the many nations who have expelled Russian diplomats?

Russia, of course, will never admit to it. When you have a ruler who has been in power for quarter of a century and 'wins' supposedly landslide election victories with an alleged 75% of the vote, you're not going to let some pesky poisoning accusations bring you down. Hence the barrage of indignant bombast emerging from the Russians in a bid to muddy the waters, whip up conspiracy theories and all sorts of associated nonsense (the sort of claptrap lapped up by the more madcap fringes of Corbyn's devotees). You could ask why more evidence isn't released to the public to show why Russia has been blamed, but presumably there are matters of security to consider, including the safety of UK personnel involved in the investigations.

In such circumstances, the day-to-day punter can only go with the standard of reasonable doubt deployed in criminal prosecutions ie 'that no other logical explanation can be derived from the facts'. Bottom line, who the hell else would it be?

Still amused by the claims on here that the UK government would actually cook up the poisoning of an obscure Russian spy in Salisbury as a tactic to deflect from Brexit :crazy:

You are aware there are such things as international criminal gangs and other countries with security and spy networks, don't you? It's laughable that you and others seem to doubt the existence of these things and the possibility that they could be involved. These things arent conspiracy theory, they're fact.


Out of interest, in your world view, does a nation-state ever have to provide proof of guilt before pinning blame on another country? Even in the case of Saddams WMD or the Gulf of Tonkin incident before Vietnam, there was evidence of guilt that amounted to apparent proof that could be considered by international bodies (even if both cases were cooked up evidence). There isn't even that in this case!

It's the willingness to swallow whatever you're being fed that is the really 'amusing' and :crazy: thing on this thread. There's some intelligent people on this thread, who appear to have swallowed the argument that 'it's military grade, so only a nation-state can produce it' :faf: Seriously, think about it. Does that even stand up to logic?? It's like some people enjoy the danger of a creep towards war.

[Smartie]

It's the willingness to swallow whatever you're being fed that is the really 'amusing' and :crazy: thing on this thread.

The thing that I find interesting is the predictable nature of the arguments that people are falling into line behind.

The chap with a Union Flag in his avatar - falls nicely in behind the line that the British government would want them to fall in behind.

The most ardent pro-Independence poster on the site - falls nicely into the anti-British government line of thinking.

I haven't got the first idea what went on. There are no facts. There is a lot of of bluff, bluster, hogwash and propaganda trying to sway us all one way or the other, whether it is into falling into line behind our government, the Russian government or whichever wacky blogger is flavour of the month at any particular moment.

Having said all of that, it is still quite an interesting thread to follow, particularly because of the fact that you can experience the interpretation of the facts and propaganda from more than one angle.

You don't get that in the Daily Mail comments section.

[PeeJay]

It's the willingness to swallow whatever you're being fed that is the really 'amusing' and :crazy: thing on this thread. There's some intelligent people on this thread, who appear to have swallowed the argument that 'it's military grade, so only a nation-state can produce it' :faf:


Well, ultimately I don't know, so I am interested in the explanation you may have for the case on hand being different from the one portrayed in the "West". What evidence can you furnish that suggests we should look elsewhere for a plausible perpetrator of the crime? What have you that could convince me to change my mind - what is your hard evidence, for example, that a few bad guys in the Mafia or some such gang can whip it up in a BB-type laboratory rather than a nation state and its vaster resources ... and don't forget to tell us why, while you are at it .. I mean I assume you are not "swallowing" the Russian version of events? :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

Well, ultimately I don't know, so I am interested in the explanation you may have for the case on hand being different from the one portrayed in the "West". What evidence can you furnish that suggests we should look elsewhere for a plausible perpetrator of the crime? What have you that could convince me to change my mind - what is your hard evidence, for example, that a few bad guys in the Mafia or some such gang can whip it up in a BB-type laboratory rather than a nation state and its vaster resources ... and don't forget to tell us why, while you are at it .. I mean I assume you are not "swallowing" the Russian version of events? :greengrin

It's very simple. I don't know who did it. That's the point. Nobody does. That's not 'anti west' or 'Pro Russian', it's just fact.

[One Day Soon]

None so blind as those that will not see eh?

[Slavers]

You are aware there are such things as international criminal gangs and other countries with security and spy networks, don't you? It's laughable that you and others seem to doubt the existence of these things and the possibility that they could be involved. These things arent conspiracy theory, they're fact.


Out of interest, in your world view, does a nation-state ever have to provide proof of guilt before pinning blame on another country? Even in the case of Saddams WMD or the Gulf of Tonkin incident before Vietnam, there was evidence of guilt that amounted to apparent proof that could be considered by international bodies (even if both cases were cooked up evidence). There isn't even that in this case!

It's the willingness to swallow whatever you're being fed that is the really 'amusing' and :crazy: thing on this thread. There's some intelligent people on this thread, who appear to have swallowed the argument that 'it's military grade, so only a nation-state can produce it' :faf: Seriously, think about it. Does that even stand up to logic?? It's like some people enjoy the danger of a creep towards war.

Credit where it is due. You are spot on in everything you say in your post. Someone wants war, Maybe not a nation or government but an element or faction within governments wants it.

Ever since Russia took a stand in Syria they have been increasingly demonized by our politicians and the media.

Clearly there are huge holes in the uk government explanation and the evidence they are able to provide. Then why the rush to state it was Russia who was responsible?

There will never be evidence provided that proves this was Russian State sponsored. It won't happen because it doesn't exist.


For some a big war with Russia is wanted and needed and for different reasons including covering up their own crimes.

Luciferanian agenda at play...

[Pretty Boy]

Credit where it is due. You are spot on in everything you say in your post. Someone wants war, Maybe not a nation or government but an element or faction within governments wants it.

Ever since Russia took a stand in Syria they have been increasingly demonized by our politicians and the media.

Clearly there are huge holes in the uk government explanation and the evidence they are able to provide. Then why the rush to state it was Russia who was responsible?

There will never be evidence provided that proves this was Russian State sponsored. It won't happen because it doesn't exist.


For some a big war with Russia is wanted and needed and for different reasons including covering up their own crimes.

Luciferanian agenda at play...

So what and where is the evidence for the alternative theories?

I've read it's a conspiracy between the UK, EU and NATO to distract from Brexit. Leaving aside the logistical and political difficulties of pulling off such a plan it also seems massively unlikely some cold blooded murder to distract from an issue that will have a direct impact on all our lives regardless was the motivating factor. It's pretty far removed from the Dr Kelly incident where having him out the way had a pretty clear benefit.

It's also been alleged it was orchestrated by the SIS with the injured Policeman used as an unwitting Trojan Horse. All to discredit a world leader who has already discredited himself through his blatant abuses of democracy, political freedoms and human rights. So the intelligence services working in collusion with a local Police service committed murder on our streets; again for no real benefit.

Finally we have an allegation some sinister force, a Luciferian Illuminati perhaps, have carried out the attack to spark a war with Russia.

I'd be interested to read your evidence for those claims. Ultimately not believing the 'official' story is understandable; That doesn't just allow for unchallenged counter theories to be thrown about though, the burden of proof lies just as much with those offering alternative theories as it does with those believing the UK Government. I have absolutely no idea what happened in Salisbury that day and I'd suggest only a very small number of people do.

[hibsbollah]

Credit where it is due. You are spot on in everything you say in your post. Someone wants war, Maybe not a nation or government but an element or faction within governments wants it.

Ever since Russia took a stand in Syria they have been increasingly demonized by our politicians and the media.

Clearly there are huge holes in the uk government explanation and the evidence they are able to provide. Then why the rush to state it was Russia who was responsible?

There will never be evidence provided that proves this was Russian State sponsored. It won't happen because it doesn't exist.


For some a big war with Russia is wanted and needed and for different reasons including covering up their own crimes.

Luciferanian agenda at play...

:greengrin I haven't decided whether you're another poster on here being an agent provocateur or one of those Russian bots I keep reading about... But I'll take the support where I can get it.

[RyeSloan]

Credit where it is due. You are spot on in everything you say in your post. Someone wants war, Maybe not a nation or government but an element or faction within governments wants it.

Ever since Russia took a stand in Syria they have been increasingly demonized by our politicians and the media.

Clearly there are huge holes in the uk government explanation and the evidence they are able to provide. Then why the rush to state it was Russia who was responsible?

There will never be evidence provided that proves this was Russian State sponsored. It won't happen because it doesn't exist.


For some a big war with Russia is wanted and needed and for different reasons including covering up their own crimes.

Luciferanian agenda at play...

Who wants a big war with Russia?

Russia has been upgrading its military capability substantially, has increased its centralisation of its economy, has annexed Crimea and used its new improved military capabilities to prop up Assad (who just happens to owe Russia billions in loans) while continuing to crush any dissent in its sphere of influence and to seed ‘fake news’ abroad.

There is also the fact that Russia is currently subject to a wide range of sanctions for past misdemeanours

Considering the above which is only a rather brief and incomplete summary of Putin’s escapades it really doesn’t seem required to run a false flag operation on UK soil to highlight the Russian ‘threat’.

Sometimes the most obvious explanation is indeed the explanation and in this case I would suggest the paw prints of the Russian state were pretty clear to the intelligence agencies rather quickly.

Of course it is possible that other nefarious groups were responsible but it’s not particularly likely and even less likely that even if they were that they were working in splendid isolation.

[speedy_gonzales]

It's very simple. I don't know who did it. That's the point. Nobody does. That's not 'anti west' or 'Pro Russian', it's just fact.
That cannot be true, at least one person knows who did it but I'd wager many more do!

[PeeJay]

It's very simple. I don't know who did it. That's the point. Nobody does. That's not 'anti west' or 'Pro Russian', it's just fact.

I think that's a bit of a cop out - I don't see how you can claim people are dumbly swallowing a line of reasoning when you offer nothing at all to back up your "doubts": the evidence for the UK side may be circumstantial, yet it is overwhelmingly accepted by several countries along with the UK? What has the Russian State to offer that makes you have your doubts? :confused:

[hibsbollah]

I think that's a bit of a cop out - I don't see how you can claim people are dumbly swallowing a line of reasoning when you offer nothing at all to back up your "doubts": the evidence for the UK side may be circumstantial, yet it is overwhelmingly accepted by several countries along with the UK? What has the Russian State to offer that makes you have your doubts? :confused:

This is ludicrous, it really is. You're asking me to give you a character reference as to what the Russian state 'has to offer' to make me doubt that they are definitely guilty? :crazy: How is it a 'cop out' to say I don't know who did it when neither you or anyone else on this thread knows either?!

I'd ask you to sit back and think about the implications of that on international, let alone criminal law.

I've given lots of thoughts, more than anyone else on this thread probably, on alternative scenarios. And I've agreed that it is POSSIBLE that the Russian state is responsible and the link to the top can be proven. But until it is proven, its very stupid to be accusing them publicly, especially when a few days later Porton Down says there's no proof? If I was one of the Non NATO governments going along with a programme of sanctions I'd be wondering what's going on.

[hibsbollah]

That cannot be true, at least one person knows who did it but I'd wager many more do!

I'll wager you're right. I'll also wager none of them are on Hibs.net, which is the point.

[G B Young]

You are aware there are such things as international criminal gangs and other countries with security and spy networks, don't you? It's laughable that you and others seem to doubt the existence of these things and the possibility that they could be involved. These things arent conspiracy theory, they're fact.


Out of interest, in your world view, does a nation-state ever have to provide proof of guilt before pinning blame on another country? Even in the case of Saddams WMD or the Gulf of Tonkin incident before Vietnam, there was evidence of guilt that amounted to apparent proof that could be considered by international bodies (even if both cases were cooked up evidence). There isn't even that in this case!

It's the willingness to swallow whatever you're being fed that is the really 'amusing' and :crazy: thing on this thread. There's some intelligent people on this thread, who appear to have swallowed the argument that 'it's military grade, so only a nation-state can produce it' :faf: Seriously, think about it. Does that even stand up to logic?? It's like some people enjoy the danger of a creep towards war.

How does the 'fact' that such gangs exist make them as likely as Russia to have carried out the attack? What countries' criminal gangs and spy networks would stand to benefit from such an action? I'm happy to admit I haven't a clue why such bodies would consider this a profitable course of action.

Like you, I couldn't claim to KNOW who the culprit is, but rather than 'swallowing whatever I'm fed' I'm merely basing my opinion (because that's all it is) on what has been accepted by almost 30 nations around the world ie that there is no other plausible explanation:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/salisbury-nerve-agent-attack-spy-intelligence-information-russia-a8276781.html

If we're looking for more information on the rationale behind this explanation then today's report in the Times would appear to add a little meat to the bones:

http://uk.businessinsider.com/skripal-poisoning-shikhany-lab-in-russia-named-as-source-of-nerve-agent-2018-4

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

This is ludicrous, it really is. You're asking me to give you a character reference as to what the Russian state 'has to offer' to make me doubt that they are definitely guilty? :crazy: How is it a 'cop out' to say I don't know who did it when neither you or anyone else on this thread knows either?!

I'd ask you to sit back and think about the implications of that on international, let alone criminal law.

I've given lots of thoughts, more than anyone else on this thread probably, on alternative scenarios. And I've agreed that it is POSSIBLE that the Russian state is responsible and the link to the top can be proven. But until it is proven, its very stupid to be accusing them publicly, especially when a few days later Porton Down says there's no proof? If I was one of the Non NATO governments going along with a programme of sanctions I'd be wondering what's going on.

There is one country with an MO of carrying out this kind of attack.

There is one country currently supporting its close ally in a proxy war to uae chemical weapons.

There is one country with a very strong motive to kill this guy, and possibly for that killing to be public and horriffic.

There is one country that invented this kind of poison, and habe had stocks of it in the past.

The same country is in conflict with the west, has an authoritarian and increasingly dictatorial leader who is pursuing an aggressive foreign policy, using propoganda and disinformation to create febrile situations in tue west.

The UK would not be picking a fight with russia - a fight it will struggle to win, without good reason. And no british govt, anywhere ever would carry out an assassination in the uk using this method.

Of course nobody will ever know (other than those involved directly) and those waiting for 'proof' will i fear be left disappointed. But i think most people will be able to draw conclusions.

Coyld they be wrong? Of course. But there cannot be any doubt that they weight of evidence so far points overwhelmingly at russia.

If other evidence emerges that makes this seem doubtful, people will obviously change their conclusions, but simply sowing doubt on someone elses arguments is not the same as providing evidence to support your own.

Given how rattled Russia appears to be, it seems they miscalculated or botched, and so that suggests to me the UK response so far has been broadly right, notwithstanding that idiot of a foreign secretary.

[Hibbyradge]

I wonder what William of Ockham would have made of it.

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/04/06/myth-busting-why-didn-t-the-skripals-die-on-the-spot

[Curried]

Perhaps this former Russian spy had a wee personal stash of the nerve agent from back in the day, and was testing it on his gerbils and moggy to see if it was still effective when he managed to contaminate himself, and subsequently his daughter. Interestingly, the only bodies from the purported assassination attempt have now been incinerated under the directions of the UK government!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/04/06/myth-busting-why-didn-t-the-skripals-die-on-the-spot

Interesting read, ta. Unfortunately the fact he had such experience working for western agencies probably qualifies him as a shill, and adds strength to the case of those who see a labyrinthine conspiracy.

[hibsbollah]

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/04/06/myth-busting-why-didn-t-the-skripals-die-on-the-spot

Interesting content. He does back up my earlier point that the term 'military grade' nerve agent is meaningless, and certainly doesn't signify that only a nation-state could produce it, as claimed elsewhere.

I didn't know that the fact neither of them died was being used as an Internet argument that it wasnt Russia. It seems a stupid argument to make and doesn't, of course, prove or disprove anything either way.

[PeeJay]

This is ludicrous, it really is. You're asking me to give you a character reference as to what the Russian state 'has to offer' to make me doubt that they are definitely guilty? :crazy: How is it a 'cop out' to say I don't know who did it when neither you or anyone else on this thread knows either?!




NO - I (and FWIW the UK line of reasoning) have not said Russia is "definitely guilty" - the line has always been the "... most plausible/most likely ..." what have YOU is what I'm asking...

Criminal/international law relies frequently/heavily/mostly on circumstantial evidence too, something which we have in this case in abundance - that too you choose to question/ignore ... why?

I'm still wondering why? Why are you doubting, what is driving your doubt? What is it "elsewhere"/what other evidence/ have you that makes you have your doubts and post them here so assuredly? You may well have made some "alternative assertions" here but what evidence do you have for their plausibility - that after all is what it comes down to - the Russians have lots of alternative theories too - think yesterday a "white rabbit" involved too?


Could you maybe drop the "... your'e all loony" stance? :wink:

[Beefster]

Perhaps this former Russian spy had a wee personal stash of the nerve agent from back in the day, and was testing it on his gerbils and moggy to see if it was still effective when he managed to contaminate himself, and subsequently his daughter. Interestingly, the only bodies from the purported assassination attempt have now been incinerated under the directions of the UK government!

As made-up scenarios go, that’s as feasible as the rest of them.

[One Day Soon]

As made-up scenarios go, that’s as feasible as the rest of them.


It is quite remarkable the lengths people will go to in order avoid the reality staring them in the face. The current conspiracy theorist position seems to be mainly at 'I see no Russian previous in this field, anyone could have done it, plus - mystifyingly, but of course ubiquitously - Iraq.

Welcome to Jeremy Corbyn's world.

[hibsbollah]

NO - I (and FWIW the UK line of reasoning) have not said Russia is "definitely guilty" - the line has always been the "... most plausible/most likely ..." what have YOU is what I'm asking...

Criminal/international law relies frequently/heavily/mostly on circumstantial evidence too, something which we have in this case in abundance - that too you choose to question/ignore ... why?

I'm still wondering why? Why are you doubting, what is driving your doubt? What is it "elsewhere"/what other evidence/ have you that makes you have your doubts and post them here so assuredly? You may well have made some "alternative assertions" here but what evidence do you have for their plausibility - that after all is what it comes down to - the Russians have lots of alternative theories too - think yesterday a "white rabbit" involved too?


Could you maybe drop the "... your'e all loony" stance? :wink:

Firstly, all the talk on here of crazy theories is coming from those who are agreeing with the UK Governments position. Not you, specifically, but i find it boringly predictable when any deviation from the official line on ANY news story on here, is met with the usual crap about 'conspiracy theories' 'tin foil hat' 'bat**** crazy' etc etc. Its a device to shut down debate. Its hardly unique to hibs net of course.

Secondly, most of the circumstantial evidence i've seen doesn't point to the Russian state ordering the killing. It points to novichok, it points to the lab where it was developed, it points to the Russian state having something to gain. Thats not 'overwhelming' circumstantial evidence.

Thirdly, the point here is that The UK Government via Boris, has said the Russians 'beyond any reasonable doubt' ordered the killing. I dont get that you dont get how extraordinary this is. Its not my job to come up with an alternative scenario as to exactly who carried out the murder, but heres one for the sake of argument. Skripal will without doubt, have countless ex colleagues who will have been less than pleased about his revelations because they saw him as a traitor who put their lives at risk? And the novichok could have been produced independently in a different lab, or stolen, or contacts in the Russian mafia could have access to it. None of the 'circumstantial evidence' linking the murder to Russia discounts this hypothetical possibility, does it?

If May and Boris have access to watertight 100% verifiable evidence, they should have gone about the whole situation differently.

[hibsbollah]

It is quite remarkable the lengths people will go to in order avoid the reality staring them in the face. The current conspiracy theorist position seems to be mainly at 'I see no Russian previous in this field, anyone could have done it, plus - mystifyingly, but of course ubiquitously - Iraq.

Welcome to Jeremy Corbyn's world.

Your obsession with Corbyn is beyond ridiculous. He has nothing to do with this story. Oh i forgot, he's a Czech spy. Or didnt bow down at the cenotaph. Or has novichok stored in his pants with anti semitic runes inscribed on them. Or something.

Now theres some conspiracy theories right there.

[Hibbyradge]

I'm not sure what people think the Tories had to gain that was worth attempting to murder an ex-Russian spy for.

They certainly had a lot to lose if it got out.

Also, I find it impossible to believe that all the nations would go to the length of expelling Russian diplomats merely on the word of Boris Johnston. They must have been shown more evidence which convinced them.

Why they haven't shown Jeremy Corbyn said evidence, I can only guess. Maybe they don't trust him. Maybe they just want to provoke him into making what they can allege are pro-Russian statements.

But, although I think the Tories are capable of a lot, the suggestion that it was a false flag operation is laughable.

[One Day Soon]

Your obsession with Corbyn is beyond ridiculous. He has nothing to do with this story. Oh i forgot, he's a Czech spy. Or didnt bow down at the cenotaph. Or has novichok stored in his pants with anti semitic runes inscribed on them. Or something.

Now theres some conspiracy theories right there.


Here we go again. Jeremy must never be referenced negatively. :rolleyes:

The man he works for - Seamus Milne - has been spinning precisely the line I referenced on this story. But somehow in your world it's fine to have the idiot Boris be part of the story and not Corbyn. Momentum-tastic.

[hibsbollah]

Here we go again. Jeremy must never be referenced negatively. :rolleyes:

The man he works for - Seamus Milne - has been spinning precisely the line I referenced on this story. But somehow in your world it's fine to have the idiot Boris be part of the story and not Corbyn. Momentum-tastic.

I don't know what any of this means or what the relevance is :dunno:

[Pretty Boy]

How many criminal investigations see all the evidence made public whilst they are ongoing?

Is there a precedent for a countries intelligence services to make the extent and limitations of their knowledge and operations a matter of public record?

It took the best part of a decade for the Litvinenko enquiry to be investigated and published. It took 5 years for his widow to win the right for their to be an inquest and in the interm period Russia refused the extradition of a suspect (as they are bound to do by their constitution). The enquiry found, despite a decade of Russian denial, 'the murder was an FSB operation, probably approved by Vladimir Putin'. Whilst that case has no direct impact on this one it seems somewhat fanciful to expect the evidence to be made available to all and sundry within a matter of weeks.

[SkintHibby]

George Galloway said if anyone actually believes the Russians were behind this botched almost Monty Pythonesque attempted assassination then they must be stupid.

I don't like GG, but on this occasion....he's right.

[Glory Lurker]

George Galloway said if anyone actually believes the Russians were behind this botched almost Monty Pythonesque attempted assassination then they must be stupid.

I don't like GG, but on this occasion....he's right.

Not for me. If he was to say he supported Hibs, I’d buy a cardie and a Rover and head down to the Nanodome to buy an ST for the rust stand.

[One Day Soon]

George Galloway said if anyone actually believes the Russians were behind this botched almost Monty Pythonesque attempted assassination then they must be stupid.

I don't like GG, but on this occasion....he's right.


I wouldn't believe Galloway if he told me we won the Scottish Cup on 21 May 2016.

[Pete]

George Galloway said if anyone actually believes the Russians were behind this botched almost Monty Pythonesque attempted assassination then they must be stupid.

I don't like GG, but on this occasion....he's right.

George Galloway is right more often than he is wrong.

A lot of people find that unsettling.

[Smartie]

George Galloway is right more often than he is wrong.

A lot of people find that unsettling.

George Galloway is very often on the right track, and just as he is about to be right he goes off at a tangent and ends up hopelessly totally wrong.

[Pete]

George Galloway is very often on the right track, and just as he is about to be right he goes off at a tangent and ends up hopelessly totally wrong.

A lot of people prefer to see the naked truth as “hopelessly totally wrong” if it makes them feel more comfortable. 😉

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I'm not sure what people think the Tories had to gain that was worth attempting to murder an ex-Russian spy for.

They certainly had a lot to lose if it got out.

Also, I find it impossible to believe that all the nations would go to the length of expelling Russian diplomats merely on the word of Boris Johnston. They must have been shown more evidence which convinced them.

Why they haven't shown Jeremy Corbyn said evidence, I can only guess. Maybe they don't trust him. Maybe they just want to provoke him into making what they can allege are pro-Russian statements.

But, although I think the Tories are capable of a lot, the suggestion that it was a false flag operation is laughable.

I believe he subsequently has been shown evidence, as part of the privy counci - hence his strangely contradictory position?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

George Galloway is right more often than he is wrong.

A lot of people find that unsettling.

Galloway is an attention seeking nob, but i do find it hard to to like him sometimes. However, his job is to be a provocative radio talk show host - he knows no more about this than you or i, and i would suggest he is wrong a lot more than he seems - hes just very good at talking his way out of it.

[Pretty Boy]

Galloway is an attention seeking nob, but i do find it hard to to like him sometimes. However, his job is to be a provocative radio talk show host - he knows no more about this than you or i, and i would suggest he is wrong a lot more than he seems - hes just very good at talking his way out of it.

I think a more accurate assessment would be Galloway is very good at shouting over people so any counter argument to his view goes unheard. That certainly applies to his radio show.

[overdrive]

George Galloway said if anyone actually believes the Russians were behind this botched almost Monty Pythonesque attempted assassination then they must be stupid.

I don't like GG, but on this occasion....he's right.

Has he stopped saying that it was definitely the policeman that’s done it now that the policeman is out of hospital and more likely to sue?

[Pretty Boy]

So is Putin still 'getting it right' on Syria? Is 70 deaths in a horrific chemical attack just more western smears?

[Curried]

So is Putin still 'getting it right' on Syria? Is 70 deaths in a horrific chemical attack just more western smears?

Absolutely horrible attack, but all the while May is still "getting it right" in Yemen.

[Pretty Boy]

Absolutely horrible attack, but all the while May is still "getting it right" in Yemen.

I may have missed it but has anyone used Mays, quite appaling, attitude towards the Yemen crisis as a mitigating factor or 'evidence' in the continuing mud slinging surrounding Salisbury?

One of the reasons given as to why the UK would carry out this attack and attempt to frame Russia was that it was to smear Putin because his policy on Syria and Assad was correct. If it wasn't already proven that belief was nonsense, Putins stance is no more 'right' than the other side, surely yet another chemical attack on civilians hammers home the point?

[hibsbollah]

So is Putin still 'getting it right' on Syria? Is 70 deaths in a horrific chemical attack just more western smears?

I don't think anyone here is trying to claim Putin is anything else but a nasty totalitarian piece of work. I hope this debate isn't going down the road of 'if you don't support the position of the Tory party on the spy poisoning you support Putin?'.

[Curried]

I may have missed it but has anyone used Mays, quite appaling, attitude towards the Yemen crisis as a mitigating factor or 'evidence' in the continuing mud slinging surrounding Salisbury?

One of the reasons given as to why the UK would carry out this attack and attempt to frame Russia was that it was to smear Putin because his policy on Syria and Assad was correct. If it wasn't already proven that belief was nonsense, Putins stance is no more 'right' than the other side, surely yet another chemical attack on civilians hammers home the point?


No really, when you consider the printed words of arguably one of the most admired UK’s prime ministers:

“I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas.…..I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes.”

Winston Churchill - May 12, 1919.

[RyeSloan]

I don't think anyone here is trying to claim Putin is anything else but a nasty totalitarian piece of work. I hope this debate isn't going down the road of 'if you don't support the position of the Tory party on the spy poisoning you support Putin?'.

But the whole debate seems centred around some sort of set up to make Putin look like a totalitarian piece of work...as you have pointed out that was already known so where is the logic in that argument?

The other position seems to be that it was a rogue element like a mafia type gang that somehow wanted to use a nerve agent to do away with an ex Russian spy. Considering that their actions have predictably caused Russia to be fingered as the culprits across the western world I find it rather unlikely that they would have carried out such an attack knowing full well that if it wasn’t state sanctioned that the come back on them from the Russian state would hardly be friendly for causing such a rumpus.

So while I’m a million miles away from happily believing anything the UK government says I’m still finding it incredibly difficult to see any other remotely feasible explanation that this wasn’t a Russian state sponsored event.

[One Day Soon]

But the whole debate seems centred around some sort of set up to make Putin look like a totalitarian piece of work...as you have pointed out that was already known so where is the logic in that argument?

The other position seems to be that it was a rogue element like a mafia type gang that somehow wanted to use a nerve agent to do away with an ex Russian spy. Considering that their actions have predictably caused Russia to be fingered as the culprits across the western world I find it rather unlikely that they would have carried out such an attack knowing full well that if it wasn’t state sanctioned that the come back on them from the Russian state would hardly be friendly for causing such a rumpus.

So while I’m a million miles away from happily believing anything the UK government says I’m still finding it incredibly difficult to see any other remotely feasible explanation that this wasn’t a Russian state sponsored event.


These two entities are increasingly interrelated and indistinguishable. All the apologism and obfuscation in the world won't absolve them of what is just the latest in a long line of this kind of activity.

[One Day Soon]

I may have missed it but has anyone used Mays, quite appaling, attitude towards the Yemen crisis as a mitigating factor or 'evidence' in the continuing mud slinging surrounding Salisbury?

One of the reasons given as to why the UK would carry out this attack and attempt to frame Russia was that it was to smear Putin because his policy on Syria and Assad was correct. If it wasn't already proven that belief was nonsense, Putins stance is no more 'right' than the other side, surely yet another chemical attack on civilians hammers home the point?


I'm sure the Stop the War coalition will be out protesting this soon. No?

[hibsbollah]

I'm sure the Stop the War coalition will be out protesting this soon. No?

Perhaps they think the Start the War coalition is already doing the job?

[One Day Soon]

Perhaps they think the Start the War coalition is already doing the job?

They're certainly thick enough and malign enough to imagine something like that. But as they are more properly regarded as the Stop the West coalition I'm sure they'll have no qualms in ignoring/rationalising the latest slaughter. Or it will all be because Iraq.

[hibsbollah]

They're certainly thick enough and malign enough to imagine something like that. But as they are more properly regarded as the Stop the West coalition I'm sure they'll have no qualms in ignoring/rationalising the latest slaughter. Or it will all be because Iraq.

You really hate pacifists don't you? It amazes me that you allegedly lasted so long as a Labour party supporter in the past. I don't think I've ever read anything youve posted that is even slightly left of the Daily Mail. It must have been difficult being in a party so at odds with your core beliefs.

[One Day Soon]

You really hate pacifists don't you? It amazes me that you allegedly lasted so long as a Labour party supporter in the past. I don't think I've ever read anything youve posted that is even slightly left of the Daily Mail. It must have been difficult being in a party so at odds with your core beliefs.


Do you really need to default to the personal when a view is posted that you don't like? It's almost like you can't tolerate dissent.

Pacifists, as in: "the belief that war and violence are unjustifiable and that all disputes should be settled by peaceful means."? Just point me to the Stop the War demonstrations against Russian involvement in Syria would you? Unless I'm missing something they are full of hypocritical cant.

I do have a low tolerance threshold for the kind of people currently running the Labour Party: comfortable middle class poseurs who are well insulated from the consequences of the loser politics they espouse to make themselves feel good, at the price of ceding power to the right with all the consequences that entails for the weakest, the poorest and the most vulnerable.

You're easily amazed but then there is a big difference between policy and politics. I've been a Labour Party member for some 36 years and your jibe about the Daily Mail is just risible.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I don't think anyone here is trying to claim Putin is anything else but a nasty totalitarian piece of work. I hope this debate isn't going down the road of 'if you don't support the position of the Tory party on the spy poisoning you support Putin?'.

So believing the UK govt, including senior scientists and our security services, makes someone a tory does it? I had no idea there were so many tories in all of these other countries around the world too. Strange. Makes me wonder how brexit is so difficult for them.

[hibsbollah]

Do you really need to default to the personal when a view is posted that you don't like? It's almost like you can't tolerate dissent.

Pacifists, as in: "the belief that war and violence are unjustifiable and that all disputes should be settled by peaceful means."? Just point me to the Stop the War demonstrations against Russian involvement in Syria would you? Unless I'm missing something they are full of hypocritical cant.

I do have a low tolerance threshold for the kind of people currently running the Labour Party: comfortable middle class poseurs who are well insulated from the consequences of the loser politics they espouse to make themselves feel good, at the price of ceding power to the right with all the consequences that entails for the weakest, the poorest and the most vulnerable.

You're easily amazed but then there is a big difference between policy and politics. I've been a Labour Party member for some 36 years and your jibe about the Daily Mail is just risible.

If the cap fits. I try to judge a post on its content, not on who posted it, but you never seem to have anything to say about anything else but how awful Labour is. You evidently prefer Mays policies to Corbyn's, John Smith's policies and possibly Kinnocks policies as well. In fact, the Daily Mail is probably LESS caustic about Labour than you are.

[hibsbollah]

So believing the UK govt, including senior scientists and our security services, makes someone a tory does it? I had no idea there were so many tories in all of these other countries around the world too. Strange. Makes me wonder how brexit is so difficult for them.

As you clearly know, i said 'support the position of the Tory party' not 'make someone a Tory'. So your second sentence doesnt make sense. I never mentioned Brexit.

[SkintHibby]

Cant believe the utter rubbish being spoken on this thread.

So, the west lied about Saddam, lied about Gaddafi and suddenly they are telling the truth about Assad? Aye right then.

Also, Assad has all but won back control in that part of Syria so they would invite western intervention by chemical attacking civilians? Seriously? Are you all that naive?:confused:

What seems to be lost on some of you lot on here, Russia has already stated categorically that if any of it's military are killed by a coalition strike in Syria they will retaliate and strike back at what launched the attack (which means sinking US warships launching the tomahawks from the med). Behind the scenes, the Russians have also told the Americans this.
This **** is going to get out of hand.:agree:

[One Day Soon]

If the cap fits. I try to judge a post on its content, not on who posted it, but you never seem to have anything to say about anything else but how awful Labour is. You evidently prefer Mays policies to Corbyn's, John Smith's policies and possibly Kinnocks policies as well. In fact, the Daily Mail is probably LESS caustic about Labour than you are.


I see you ignored the main points of my post in favour of more personal barbs - ignoring the content in fact. You do realise that if Stop the War are pacifists they need to be pacificts all the time, not just when it suits them to attack the West?

You have literally no idea what my views are on John Smith's or Neil Kinnock's time as leader, what an absolutely ludicrous claim to make. I worked regularly with both their offices and was very comfortable with their policy agendas. As to my opinion on May and Corbyn I've been explicit in my contempt for both of them and for good political reasons.

I am caustic about Labour because I expect far more of them than some right-wing 5hit rag does. For example, calling out anti-semites rather than tolerating them and calling out chemical attacks shouldn't be dependent upon whether or not the culprits are your mates.

[hibsbollah]

I see you ignored the main points of my post in favour of more personal barbs - ignoring the content in fact. You do realise that if Stop the War are pacifists they need to be pacificts all the time, not just when it suits them to attack the West?

You have literally no idea what my views are on John Smith's or Neil Kinnock's time as leader, what an absolutely ludicrous claim to make. I worked regularly with both their offices and was very comfortable with their policy agendas. As to my opinion on May and Corbyn I've been explicit in my contempt for both of them and for good political reasons.

I am caustic about Labour because I expect far more of them than some right-wing 5hit rag does. For example, calling out anti-semites rather than tolerating them and calling out chemical attacks shouldn't be dependent upon whether or not the culprits are your mates.

Even when youre trying to demonstrate your Labour credentials you spout pish that seems beyond Richard Little john. Assad and Corbyn are 'mates'? Really?

Im out. This place is a ****ing joke.

[One Day Soon]

Even when youre trying to demonstrate your Labour credentials you spout pish that seems beyond Richard Little john. Assad and Corbyn are 'mates'? Really?

Im out. This place is a ****ing joke.


I don't have to try and demonstrate anything, I've been involved in the Labour movement and its politics all my life.

"Assad and Corbyn are 'mates'?" I was talking about Labour and antisemitism and Labour and Russia in Syria, you converted it to Corbyn.

We're clearly not going to agree on anything much so I'll leave it there.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

As you clearly know, i said 'support the position of the Tory party' not 'make someone a Tory'. So your second sentence doesnt make sense. I never mentioned Brexit.

But as you well know, it is not a tory party position, it is a UK govt position, supported by opposition parties.
If any issues should be above partisan politics, issues of national security surely are one.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Cant believe the utter rubbish being spoken on this thread.

So, the west lied about Saddam, lied about Gaddafi and suddenly they are telling the truth about Assad? Aye right then.

Also, Assad has all but won back control in that part of Syria so they would invite western intervention by chemical attacking civilians? Seriously? Are you all that naive?:confused:

What seems to be lost on some of you lot on here, Russia has already stated categorically that if any of it's military are killed by a coalition strike in Syria they will retaliate and strike back at what launched the attack (which means sinking US warships launching the tomahawks from the med). Behind the scenes, the Russians have also told the Americans this.
This **** is going to get out of hand.:agree:

If you think for a minute the russians would risk a hot war with the USA over syria, i fear it is you who is being naive.

And the russians never did much when turkey (a nato member) shot one of its bombers out of the sky a year or so back did it?

And how did the west lie about gadaffi? Saddam fair enough, bit that partixular eff-up doesnt seem to have much of a bearing on russian assassinations in the uk surely?

But, if Iraq is a relevant indicator of past behaviour, isnt the fact that russia has once before (that we know about) csrried out a very similar assasination act just as much of a predictor of behavious as the UK lying about iraqi wmd? Not to mention the guy poisoned in London in the 70s with the umbrella, and then there was the less subtle ice pick that they used on leon trotsky.

Or does past behaviour only predict future behavious for 'the west'?

[SkintHibby]

If you think for a minute the russians would risk a hot war with the USA over syria, i fear it is you who is being naive.

And the russians never did much when turkey (a nato member) shot one of its bombers out of the sky a year or so back did it?

And how did the west lie about gadaffi? Saddam fair enough, bit that partixular eff-up doesnt seem to have much of a bearing on russian assassinations in the uk surely?

But, if Iraq is a relevant indicator of past behaviour, isnt the fact that russia has once before (that we know about) csrried out a very similar assasination act just as much of a predictor of behavious as the UK lying about iraqi wmd? Not to mention the guy poisoned in London in the 70s with the umbrella, and then there was the less subtle ice pick that they used on leon trotsky.

Or does past behaviour only predict future behavious for 'the west'?

Of course the UK does not carry out political assassinations. No, of course they dont lol.

Do you honestly think if the USA starts killing Russian military personnel in Syria Russia will just sit back? REALLY?

Not only are you naive, you are brainwashed beyond belief. Look further than the BBC propaganda for your news.

Bringing up Trotsky was a belter, I'll give you that! :-D

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Of course the UK does not carry out political assassinations. No, of course they dont lol.

Do you honestly think if the USA starts killing Russian military personnel in Syria Russia will just sit back? REALLY?

Not only are you naive, you are brainwashed beyond belief. Look further than the BBC propaganda for your news.

Bringing up Trotsky was a belter, I'll give you that! :-D

You have ignored my points and completely misrepresented what i said.

Lets just leave it here.

[SkintHibby]

You have ignored my points and completely misrepresented what i said.

Lets just leave it here.

You know you've won the argument when you hear that. Nice one.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You know you've won the argument when you hear that. Nice one.

Yeah, im sure Chatham House will be on the phone to you any minute for your searing insights...

[G B Young]

Of course the UK does not carry out political assassinations. No, of course they dont lol.

Do you honestly think if the USA starts killing Russian military personnel in Syria Russia will just sit back? REALLY?

Not only are you naive, you are brainwashed beyond belief. Look further than the BBC propaganda for your news.

Bringing up Trotsky was a belter, I'll give you that! :-D

Can you provide an example?

[Betty Boop]

Can you provide an example?

Operation Flavius.

[CropleyWasGod]

Can you provide an example?Willie McRae?

Any number of assassinations in Northern Ireland?

The point, of course, is that these things cannot be proved. Otherwise our security services wouldn't be doing their jobs properly.

On the balance of probabilities, though, I'd be more surprised if we hadn't dirtied our hands.

[Pete]

So after this chemical attack by an unproven source that has killed an unknown amount of people, the USA is now talking about wading in with military action. Before anyone disagrees, nobody knows the facts because nobody has had access to the area where the attack was supposed to have been carried out and I’m a bit reluctant to simply take one sides word for it.

I’ve heard it all before “regime change”, “killing his own people”, “we must intervene” etc...All the meddling has done in the past is leave gaping holes for islamists and bampots to fill.

Far too simplistic maybe but I’m not claiming any in depth knowledge on the subject. FFS working out who’s backing what factions and rebel groups is more complicated than working out the post split fixtures (just).

I just wish we (the West and the USA in particular) would leave these people alone and can’t help thinking that it wouldn’t have came to all of this if we had done so in the past.

Edit: probably not the right thread as I’m not taking about the Russian spies.

[G B Young]

Willie McRae?

Any number of assassinations in Northern Ireland?

The point, of course, is that these things cannot be proved. Otherwise our security services wouldn't be doing their jobs properly.

On the balance of probabilities, though, I'd be more surprised if we hadn't dirtied our hands.

I'd forgotten about Willie McRae. I'd have to read up on it but were his family not always of the view it was suicide, which largely undermined any conspiracy theories?

As for Flavius and any NI-related killings, do counter terrorism operations qualify as 'political assassinations'?

[G B Young]

So after this chemical attack by an unproven source that has killed an unknown amount of people, the USA is now talking about wading in with military action. Before anyone disagrees, nobody knows the facts because nobody has had access to the area where the attack was supposed to have been carried out and I’m a bit reluctant to simply take one sides word for it.

I’ve heard it all before “regime change”, “killing his own people”, “we must intervene” etc...All the meddling has done in the past is leave gaping holes for islamists and bampots to fill.

Far too simplistic maybe but I’m not claiming any in depth knowledge on the subject. FFS working out who’s backing what factions and rebel groups is more complicated than working out the post split fixtures (just).

I just wish we (the West and the USA in particular) would leave these people alone and can’t help thinking that it wouldn’t have came to all of this if we had done so in the past.

Edit: probably not the right thread as I’m not taking about the Russian spies.

The time to intervene in Syria IMHO was in 2013, but parliament voted against backing Obama's call for military strikes.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

So after this chemical attack by an unproven source that has killed an unknown amount of people, the USA is now talking about wading in with military action. Before anyone disagrees, nobody knows the facts because nobody has had access to the area where the attack was supposed to have been carried out and I’m a bit reluctant to simply take one sides word for it.

I’ve heard it all before “regime change”, “killing his own people”, “we must intervene” etc...All the meddling has done in the past is leave gaping holes for islamists and bampots to fill.

Far too simplistic maybe but I’m not claiming any in depth knowledge on the subject. FFS working out who’s backing what factions and rebel groups is more complicated than working out the post split fixtures (just).

I just wish we (the West and the USA in particular) would leave these people alone and can’t help thinking that it wouldn’t have came to all of this if we had done so in the past.

Edit: probably not the right thread as I’m not taking about the Russian spies.

Its a real muddle.

It is a perfect example of why, despite over simplifications by most people, international relations is difficult - and maybe impossible. It is impossible to know how history would have been different if action / inaction had taken place in any particular situation.

I feel very reluctant in following trump into anything, and i find the whole syrian web intimidatingly complex. And of course we all know that intervention, esp in the middle east, is fraught.

But equally we know that appeasement doesnt work, and my gut instinct is that russia is a bit of a paper tiger, and that they need to be confronted so that they curb their recent aggressive actions.

Clearly Assad should be stopped from droppigg chemical weapons on civilians, but i cant help but think he is maybe preferable to the alternative of balkanisation and chaos.

Who would want to make these decisions? And whilr doing nothing is clearly the easiest course, that doesnt mean it is the correct course.

[RyeSloan]

Its a real muddle.

It is a perfect example of why, despite over simplifications by most people, international relations is difficult - and maybe impossible. It is impossible to know how history would have been different if action / inaction had taken place in any particular situation.

I feel very reluctant in following trump into anything, and i find the whole syrian web intimidatingly complex. And of course we all know that intervention, esp in the middle east, is fraught.

But equally we know that appeasement doesnt work, and my gut instinct is that russia is a bit of a paper tiger, and that they need to be confronted so that they curb their recent aggressive actions.

Clearly Assad should be stopped from droppigg chemical weapons on civilians, but i cant help but think he is maybe preferable to the alternative of balkanisation and chaos.

Who would want to make these decisions? And whilr doing nothing is clearly the easiest course, that doesnt mean it is the correct course.

So a classic case of aye, naw and maybe!

Syria is a case though and I don’t know if there is a correct course of action there...every approach seems fraught with danger. That said the civilians of Syria have been left to be slaughtered or to run by the international community and that’s clearly not right. Sadly though the UN is a powerless organisation so as ever it comes down to the big boys playing phoney wars to sort it out, which of course just leads to more misery for most.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'd forgotten about Willie McRae. I'd have to read up on it but were his family not always of the view it was suicide, which largely undermined any conspiracy theories?

As for Flavius and any NI-related killings, do counter terrorism operations qualify as 'political assassinations'?They do if you're on the receiving end :)

Russia, if it is indeed them, might well claim the action as "counter-terrorism".

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

So a classic case of aye, naw and maybe!

Syria is a case though and I don’t know if there is a correct course of action there...every approach seems fraught with danger. That said the civilians of Syria have been left to be slaughtered or to run by the international community and that’s clearly not right. Sadly though the UN is a powerless organisation so as ever it comes down to the big boys playing phoney wars to sort it out, which of course just leads to more misery for most.

Yeah, i suspect there is no objectively correct answer.

It makes the risible claim from Corbyn et al that he has 'been on the right side of history everytime on foreign policy' even more ridiculous, sanctimonious and conceited than it sounded when i first heard it.

I think with Syria, all things considered, a face-saving, fairly token attack on syrian airbases, with the russians pre-warned via the deescalation line, would be the least worst option?

[One Day Soon]

Yeah, i suspect there is no objectively correct answer.

It makes the risible claim from Corbyn et al that he has 'been on the right side of history everytime on foreign policy' even more ridiculous, sanctimonious and conceited than it sounded when i first heard it.

I think with Syria, all things considered, a face-saving, fairly token attack on syrian airbases, with the russians pre-warned via the deescalation line, would be the least worst option?


There are no clean foreign policy options in circumstances like these. If we intervene people die, if we don't intervene people die. In addition, the likelihood is that our choices mean we either pay now or pay later where these conflicts are concerned. There's no easy get-out. Non-intervention doesn't come consequence free.

On the balance of probabilities I would have preferred active intervention trying to prevent heavier slaughter than we've seen and in consequence perhaps lower levels of refugee displacement. I also think ceding position in Syria to a gangster Russian state was unwise all round.

The UN is utterly useless, nothing more than a microscopic fig leaf for hand wringing inaction. Useful, perhaps, for low scale operations once conflicts have played themselves out, blood thirst has run its course and countries or regions are so bled out that peace is the only course left.

Stepping back from the immediacy of what's happening in Syria now and in recent years it seems clear to me that these conflicts can almost all be reduced to historic and historically constant factors. Great power competition for resources and influence combined with global poverty and economic instability. Violence generally occurs where people they feel they have no other recourse, have very little to lose and when actions have little consequence. Add in cultures/regimes which repress equal rights and free thought and expression and you have much of the Middle East.

There's **** all point being a switched-on, well educated and ambitious young person in Libya, Egypt, Syria or Iraq if basically there are little to no life opportunities and you are facing a future of permanent 'get back in your box and STFU or else'. In those circumstances it's about as surprising as night following day that people become desperate and open to radicalisation.

If we want to start to unlock these constantly running internal and international conflicts we should begin by looking at who holds wealth in these areas, how equally that is shared, what opportunities people have to live, work and prosper and what the international community can do to redistribute wealth and opportunity. That for me is fundamentally the most depressing part of what the Trump win meant - when the West's most powerful nation turns its eyes so overtly inward the chances of seeing the real problems and working globally to tackle them become minimal.

The idea that we can live in isolation and all will be well is crazy. Globalisation is how we live and everybody is part of a system that is either healthy or unhealthy - which is why internationalism beats nationalism every single time. If our American or Russian arm thinks it can ignore the malignant illness in our Syrian or Yemeni foot without consequence it is short sighted beyond belief.

[Curried]

There are no clean foreign policy options in circumstances like these............

It’s simply human nature for some people to be greedy.

In the case of Syria the nub of the conflict comes down to geopolitics and the sale of Qatar’s North Field gas reserves to an expanding European population. The western “Allies” want an alternative emery feed (pipeline through Saudi/Jordan/Syria/Turkey) to offset their current reliance on Russian Gas, as it’s currently too costly to transship through the Straits of Hormuz on bulk LNG carriers.

The Russians and their Shia Allies (Iran, Iraq Syria) want to choke this option and run an alternative pipeline to Europe from an adjacent field on the Iranian controlled part of the Persian (Arabian) Gulf. The obstacle for both competing factions is control of Syria, but unfortunately Assad signed a contract about 10 years ago to back the Russian route.

[One Day Soon]

It’s simply human nature for some people to be greedy.

In the case of Syria the nub of the conflict comes down to geopolitics and the sale of Qatar’s North Field gas reserves to an expanding European population. The western “Allies” want an alternative emery feed (pipeline through Saudi/Jordan/Syria/Turkey) to offset their current reliance on Russian Gas, as it’s currently too costly to transship through the Straits of Hormuz on bulk LNG carriers.

The Russians and their Shia Allies (Iran, Iraq Syria) want to choke this option and run an alternative pipeline to Europe from an adjacent field on the Iranian controlled part of the Persian (Arabian) Gulf. The obstacle for both competing factions is control of Syria, but unfortunately Assad signed a contract about 10 years ago to back the Russian route.


And you can add the objectives of Iran and Hezbollah principally (but Russia too) in having control of Syria for its proximity to Israel in the case of the former two and the potential of that chip to cause further difficulty for the US and it's Israeli ally in the case of the latter, with a Russian warm water Mediterranean naval port thrown in for very good measure.

[One Day Soon]

Oh look, an Algerian military plane has mysteriously crashed in the midst of public threats and counter threats about who is going to do what in respect of Assad's chemical attack. Who is Algeria allied to and I wonder who was on board?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Tge WHO are saying there was a chemical attack. I wonder which conspiracy they are party to?

[Curried]

And you can add the objectives of Iran and Hezbollah principally (but Russia too) in having control of Syria for its proximity to Israel in the case of the former two and the potential of that chip to cause further difficulty for the US and it's Israeli ally in the case of the latter, with a Russian warm water Mediterranean naval port thrown in for very good measure.

:agree:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It’s simply human nature for some people to be greedy.

In the case of Syria the nub of the conflict comes down to geopolitics and the sale of Qatar’s North Field gas reserves to an expanding European population. The western “Allies” want an alternative emery feed (pipeline through Saudi/Jordan/Syria/Turkey) to offset their current reliance on Russian Gas, as it’s currently too costly to transship through the Straits of Hormuz on bulk LNG carriers.

The Russians and their Shia Allies (Iran, Iraq Syria) want to choke this option and run an alternative pipeline to Europe from an adjacent field on the Iranian controlled part of the Persian (Arabian) Gulf. The obstacle for both competing factions is control of Syria, but unfortunately Assad signed a contract about 10 years ago to back the Russian route.

Good post, and im sure there is a lot of truth in what you say.

Buy securing access to one of the modt vital natural assets is not necessarily greedy - we rely on gas.

It may all cone down to interests, but the realpolitik is that russia may have badly misjudged the US President, and IF they have, they will eithet have to back down and 'allow' the west to carry out their punative raid and lose face diplomatically, engage in a confrontation that they will almost certainly lose, lose face and have their military weakness exposed to the world, or escalate to full blown war, which i doubt even Putin wants.

The US has, i believe despatched a carrier battle group to the eastern med - and for all their bombast, i cant see tge russians wanting to unleash that firepower, along with the carrier groups already in the gulf, and additional UK, French and even Isaraeli firepower.

The only option is surely to negotiate, something they have so far seemed reluctant to do. Hopefullu all the military posturing is just pre negotiation posturing, but im not holding out much hope.

[G B Young]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43741140

[ronaldo7]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43741140

Does the Opcw report mention, Russia, at all?

[ronaldo7]

Yet you believe every single word from Wings, without question. Although you seem to have gone off Wings these days and Russia Today is your new source of wisdom, cause the Kremlin funded television station will be totally impartial won't they.....

Been on my Holibobs, so I missed this wonderful insight into what my sources are.

1. Oi, R7, will you stop posting links to wings.

2. R7 stops posting links to wings.

3. Aha, I see you've fallen out of love with wings.

It's the Tory way. Just look at the way they kept banging on about Indy2 when everyone else was getting on with the day job.

As for RT, I'm getting my news from many outlets including them. I even get some news from the BBC now and again. It's what you believe that matters.:wink:

You keep getting your info from the Daily Heil/Express/Metro though.

[johnbc70]

Been on my Holibobs, so I missed this wonderful insight into what my sources are.

1. Oi, R7, will you stop posting links to wings.

2. R7 stops posting links to wings.

3. Aha, I see you've fallen out of love with wings.

It's the Tory way. Just look at the way they kept banging on about Indy2 when everyone else was getting on with the day job.

As for RT, I'm getting my news from many outlets including them. I even get some news from the BBC now and again. It's what you believe that matters.:wink:

You keep getting your info from the Daily Heil/Express/Metro though.

Welcome back, we missed you. Well kind of...

[ronaldo7]

Welcome back, we missed you. Well kind of...

Good. I see you're using the Royal "we". How very Tory of you.

Here's a link to be getting on with. It's to do with your daily paper, so you should feel at home. :greengrin

https://wingsoverscotland.com/just-plain-lying/

[One Day Soon]

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water...

[ronaldo7]

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water...

Brilliant...

I'll ensure I've filled in the relevant paperwork to ensure I can post in the future herr Oberfurer

We wouldn't want to have a different opinion from your Left/Centre/Right wing views. After all, you've been in the Labour movement since Hardie was a boy.

Did I get the spelling correct?

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-labour-keir-hardy-howler-12157496


Linked to one of your own. :wink:

[One Day Soon]

Brilliant...

I'll ensure I've filled in the relevant paperwork to ensure I can post in the future herr Oberfurer

We wouldn't want to have a different opinion from your Left/Centre/Right wing views. After all, you've been in the Labour movement since Hardie was a boy.

Did I get the spelling correct?

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-labour-keir-hardy-howler-12157496


Linked to one of your own. :wink:


No you didn't, its spelled Oberfuhrer.

You seem a bit upset, perhaps you needed a longer holiday?

[Hibrandenburg]

No you didn't, its spelled Oberfuhrer.

You seem a bit upset, perhaps you needed a longer holiday?

It's actually spelled "Oberführer" or "Oberfuehrer". :coffee:

[Betty Boop]

A military grade nerve agent that fails to kill and the two victims make a miraculous recovery? Sound like bull**** to me much like the chemical weapons attack.

[G B Young]

A military grade nerve agent that fails to kill and the two victims make a miraculous recovery? Sound like bull**** to me much like the chemical weapons attack.

I have no knowledge of such agents so if you have more understanding of their effects then I'm happy to defer to that, but according to this article their recovery wasn't necessarily 'miraculous' thanks largely to the prompt medical care they received:

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/04/06/myth-busting-why-didn-t-the-skripals-die-on-the-spot

[Beefster]

A military grade nerve agent that fails to kill and the two victims make a miraculous recovery? Sound like bull**** to me much like the chemical weapons attack.

Why does the chemical weapons attack ‘sound’ like bull****? Was it the pictures, the reports from the locals, the charities confirming it or the governments confirming it that made you sceptical? Or maybe Russia convinced you with the strength of their argument?

[johnbc70]

Why does the chemical weapons attack ‘sound’ like bull****? Was it the pictures, the reports from the locals, the charities confirming it or the governments confirming it that made you sceptical? Or maybe Russia convinced you with the strength of their argument?

All made up, hundreds of local out of work actors clearly behind the whole thing.

[overdrive]

I know our government is a Tory one but I’m amazed by the amount of people who believe Putin over the UK government.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I know our government is a Tory one but I’m amazed by the amount of people who believe Putin over the UK government.

Yeah, this always surprises me too. Especially given his track record and thw glaring inconsistencies in their position.

[Pete]

I know our government is a Tory one but I’m amazed by the amount of people who believe Putin over the UK government.

To be honest, if any of them told me I had a hole in my arse, I’d still check just in case.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

To be honest, if any of them told me I had a hole in my arse, I’d still check just in case.

Thats quite a statement. So you dont believe anything that your govt tells you, bearing in mind the govt (i.e. the civil service, military, security services etc are the same regardless of the party of govt)?

[Pete]

Thats quite a statement. So you dont believe anything that your govt tells you, bearing in mind the govt (i.e. the civil service, military, security services etc are the same regardless of the party of govt)?

Let’s just say I’m slightly cynical when it comes to things like this. After what’s gone on before, I think a lot of people are.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Let’s just say I’m slightly cynical when it comes to things like this. After what’s gone on before, I think a lot of people are.

Fair enough, i realise iraq has cast a long shadow. It is perhaps its biggest effect that it has permanently poisoned people's belief in their government on issues like these.

[G B Young]

I know our government is a Tory one but I’m amazed by the amount of people who believe Putin over the UK government.

They don't. Not really. It's just easier to give credence to a Russian autocrat than grudgingly accept that a Tory government is calling things right.

The situation isn't helped by the fact we're now lumbered with a leader of the opposition who is now making absurd demands for 'incontrovertible evidence' that Russia was responsible before he'll believe it. What sort of form would such evidence take? For Corbyn, presumably nothing less than a confession from Putin would suffice. Incompetent and thankfully unelectable, the guy is little more than a nasty narcissist.

[Hibrandenburg]

I know our government is a Tory one but I’m amazed by the amount of people who believe Putin over the UK government.

My personal experience (by no means objective) is that there are elements of the left who have mistaken nostalgic allegiance to the old Soviet Union and fail to realise that Russia after losing their national identity after the collapse of communism (similar to Germany post 1918) has undergone a complete 180 degree political upheaval and is now ruled by a fascist dictator.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

My personal experience (by no means objective) is that there are elements of the left who have mistaken nostalgic allegiance to the old Soviet Union and fail to realise that Russia after losing their national identity after the collapse of communism (similar to Germany post 1918) has undergone a complete 180 degree political upheaval and is now ruled by a fascist dictator.

Similarly subjective, but this would be my take also. Its one of the main reasons that corbyn is such an idiot for not recognising how bad he plays in this situation, as nobody is in any doubt that he spent the cold war rooting for our enemy, and it seems old habits die hard.

Ironically enough, tonight's episode of homeland is called Useful Idiot, which apparently was a term used by Stalin for the USSR's stooges in the west. Art imitating life...?

[snooky]

When dealing with a pack of suspected liars (i.e. all the various governments) best bet is to not believe any of them.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

When dealing with a pack of suspected liars (i.e. all the various governments) best bet is to not believe any of them.

I worry that this is a total cop out - and completely serves the aims of those peddling the lies in the first place - disinformation is designed to do exactly that, its not about getting you to believe them, its about poisoning the well to the point that people dont believe anything and so the truth becomes another contested facebook post or 'establishment ruse'. At that point, democracy is pretty ****ed and we end up with people like Trump and Brexit.

[Colr]

I know our government is a Tory one but I’m amazed by the amount of people who believe Putin over the UK government.

He’s a lying ******* but then so is the Foreign Secretary!

[snooky]

I worry that this is a total cop out - and completely serves the aims of those peddling the lies in the first place - disinformation is designed to do exactly that, its not about getting you to believe them, its about poisoning the well to the point that people dont believe anything and so the truth becomes another contested facebook post or 'establishment ruse'. At that point, democracy is pretty ****ed and we end up with people like Trump and Brexit.

Thank you for endorsing my point, SH.
However, I feel we are not 'at that point', we are beyond it.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Thank you for endorsing my point, SH.
However, I feel we are not 'at that point', we are beyond it.

Yeah, maybe. But that requires people to recognise that all printed words on a screen are NOT the same. And i absolutely do not believe for a second that our govt is either willig or able to systematically lie to us the way that many other govts do, and people who dismiss our govt as being the same as putins are just flat out wrong. Our system of government IS superior to those of many other countries.

You only need to look at this, the bbc bias and a few of the other threads on here to see it in action. Countering an official govt position on an issue like this with random blogs written by random people is not good enough, and people getting exasperated (understandably) and just taking their leave of an issue by dismissing all sides as the same is not acceptable - all sides are not the same.

Sorry for getting annoyed, but i really feel this is becoming a major, defining issue of our age - liberal democracy has been weaponised by those who are thratened by it, and our own people forget too easily just how lucky they are to live in the west at this time - but we take it for granted, it is not guarenteed, it has beem hard fought and hard won - we are only two generations on from total war to defeat these type of countries on our very doorstep FFS, and only one generation from winning the cold war. Yet people are (willfully or otherwise) helping to undermine it for the sake of looking clever on Facebook, or confirming just how much they hate and dont trust the tories. I find it genuinely concerning, and i fear we are sowing the seeds of our own destruction.

If syria should remind us of anything, its that we do not live in a postwar world, and that we could still end up in a situation that our parents / grandparents generation made enormous sacrifices to stop from happening ever again.

Apologies for the rant!

[GreenLake]

Yeah, maybe. But that requires people to recognise that all printed words on a screen are NOT the same. And i absolutely do not believe for a second that our govt is either willig or able to systematically lie to us the way that many other govts do, and people who dismiss our govt as being the same as putins are just flat out wrong. Our system of government IS superior to those of many other countries.

You only need to look at this, the bbc bias and a few of the other threads on here to see it in action. Countering an official govt position on an issue like this with random blogs written by random people is not good enough, and people getting exasperated (understandably) and just taking their leave of an issue by dismissing all sides as the same is not acceptable - all sides are not the same.

Sorry for getting annoyed, but i really feel this is becoming a major, defining issue of our age - liberal democracy has been weaponised by those who are thratened by it, and our own people forget too easily just how lucky they are to live in the west at this time - but we take it for granted, it is not guarenteed, it has beem hard fought and hard won - we are only two generations on from total war to defeat these type of countries on our very doorstep FFS, and only one generation from winning the cold war. Yet people are (willfully or otherwise) helping to undermine it for the sake of looking clever on Facebook, or confirming just how much they hate and dont trust the tories. I find it genuinely concerning, and i fear we are sowing the seeds of our own destruction.

If syria should remind us of anything, its that we do not live in a postwar world, and that we could still end up in a situation that our parents / grandparents generation made enormous sacrifices to stop from happening ever again.

Apologies for the rant!

https://www.globalresearch.ca/independent-swiss-lab-says-bz-toxin-used-in-skripal-poisoning-usuk-produced-not-russian/5636311

Can't find anything from sites which are not considered 'conspiracy theorist' but this has been thrown around last day or two. It didn't make sense to me that they would be so dumb as to use something with a Russian origin.

[PeeJay]

https://www.globalresearch.ca/independent-swiss-lab-says-bz-toxin-used-in-skripal-poisoning-usuk-produced-not-russian/5636311

Can't find anything from sites which are not considered 'conspiracy theorist' but this has been thrown around last day or two. It didn't make sense to me that they would be so dumb as to use something with a Russian origin.

This is a link https://twitter.com/spiezlab?lang=de to the cited "Swiss lab" and its response to the Russian FM'S assertion! Seems to me that it clearly backs up the PD findings, despite what Putin's RT propaganda is trying to spin to the gullible ... why you posted a link to Putin's RT without quoting what Spiez actually says baffles me ... :confused:

Spiez Laboratory‏ @SpiezLab (https://twitter.com/SpiezLab) 14. Apr. (https://twitter.com/SpiezLab/status/985243574123057152)Mehr

"Only OPCW can comment this assertion. But we can repeat what we stated 10 days ago: We have no doubt that Porton Down has identified Novichock. PD - like Spiez - is a designated lab of the OPCW. The standards in verification are so rigid that one can trust the findings. #Skipal (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Skipal?src=hash)"

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

https://www.globalresearch.ca/independent-swiss-lab-says-bz-toxin-used-in-skripal-poisoning-usuk-produced-not-russian/5636311

Can't find anything from sites which are not considered 'conspiracy theorist' but this has been thrown around last day or two. It didn't make sense to me that they would be so dumb as to use something with a Russian origin.

Ive read this a few times, and it had never made sense to me. There are a number of reasons they would...

Firstly, they could be sending a message to other would-be defectors, showing that the west cant protect them or their family.

Secondly, i have read that novichoks were developed to be very hard to trace, and so if it had gone differently, it would have been very hard to identify the cause of death. For example, the numerous other russian dissidents who have died if random heart attacks.

Or..
Thirdly, why wouldnt the russians use one of their own weapons? They didnt try and hide the 'little gree men' in Ukraine, or the 'mercenaries' fighting in syria did they? It suuts Putin's narrative at home to have the west blame him, while at the same time they spin their BS on Russia Today.

[SkintHibby]

Ive read this a few times, and it had never made sense to me. There are a number of reasons they would...

Firstly, they could be sending a message to other would-be defectors, showing that the west cant protect them or their family.

Secondly, i have read that novichoks were developed to be very hard to trace, and so if it had gone differently, it would have been very hard to identify the cause of death. For example, the numerous other russian dissidents who have died if random heart attacks.

Or..
Thirdly, why wouldnt the russians use one of their own weapons? They didnt try and hide the 'little gree men' in Ukraine, or the 'mercenaries' fighting in syria did they? It suuts Putin's narrative at home to have the west blame him, while at the same time they spin their BS on Russia Today.

You really do talk the biggest crock of nonsense on here.

Russiophobia is alive and strong in you.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You really do talk the biggest crock of nonsense on here.

Russiophobia is alive and strong in you.

Ok🖒

[GreenLake]

This is a link https://twitter.com/spiezlab?lang=de to the cited "Swiss lab" and its response to the Russian FM'S assertion! Seems to me that it clearly backs up the PD findings, despite what Putin's RT propaganda is trying to spin to the gullible ... why you posted a link to Putin's RT without quoting what Spiez actually says baffles me ... :confused:

Spiez Laboratory‏ @SpiezLab (https://twitter.com/SpiezLab) 14. Apr. (https://twitter.com/SpiezLab/status/985243574123057152)Mehr

"Only OPCW can comment this assertion. But we can repeat what we stated 10 days ago: We have no doubt that Porton Down has identified Novichock. PD - like Spiez - is a designated lab of the OPCW. The standards in verification are so rigid that one can trust the findings. #Skipal (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Skipal?src=hash)"





The Spiez lab just quoted a Swiss Government Official and then stated that they don't doubt the findings of PD. They didn't say what their own lab's findings were because it's confidential. The entire world media has been printing leaked information since the incident yet now they are keeping things secret? They could blow this out of the water with that data should it exist but maybe they are waiting for some other things to unfold.

My link was not to RT although they did quote the Russian FM who probably used RT as his mouthpiece to originate this allegation. Did he completely make it up about BZ toxin or was it a part of the report circulated to OPCW members (which includes Russia) but not made public?

[PeeJay]

The Spiez lab just quoted a Swiss Government Official and then stated that they don't doubt the findings of PD. They didn't say what their own lab's findings were because it's confidential. The entire world media has been printing leaked information since the incident yet now they are keeping things secret? They could blow this out of the water with that data should it exist but maybe they are waiting for some other things to unfold.

My link was not to RT although they did quote the Russian FM who probably used RT as his mouthpiece to originate this allegation. Did he completely make it up about BZ toxin or was it a part of the report circulated to OPCW members (which includes Russia) but not made public?


Think the quote I referenced was actually from the Spreiz lab (?) your link wasn't to RT (my mistake!!) but it may as well have been, as it seemed to take its "news" references solely from RT and the FM - Anyway, as RT is not a news organisation, but Putin's propaganda instrument such links are essentially worthless ...

The Swiss Government has also stated that it accepts the findings of the Spreiz lab regarding the Nov. toxin

The OPCW has explicitly stated that FM Lawrow's assertions are erroneous, so yes he probably did just make it up - nothing new there then :greengrin


OPENING STATEMENT BY THE DIRECTOR-GENERAL TO THE EXECUTIVE COUNCIL AT ITS FIFTY-NINTH MEETING (OPCW)
Extract
"As it was clearly shown in the detailed and technical presentation, we should not have an iota of doubt on the reliability of the system of the OPCW Designated Laboratories. The Labs were able to confirm the identity of the chemical by applying existing, well-established procedures. There was no other chemical that was identified by the Labs. The precursor of BZ that is referred to in the public statements, commonly known as 3Q, was contained in the control sample prepared by the OPCW Lab in accordance with the existing quality control procedures. Otherwise it has nothing to do with the samples collected by the OPCW Team in Salisbury. This chemical was reported back to the OPCW by the two designated labs and the findings are duly reflected in the report."

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Apols foe the long post, but this article by the Guardian's Jonathan Freedland is worth posting - it seems particuarly appropriate to both this thread and internet discussions more generally.


The great divide of our times is not left v right, but true v false
Jonathan Freedland
Jonathan Freedland
The denigration of Robert Mueller and the White Helmets shows the extent to which provable facts are now under siege


There was a time when, even if we disagreed about the remedy, we did at least agree that the patient was sick. We might argue about the meaning of this or that event, but all sides usually accepted that the event in question had at least happened. No longer. A new and unsettling dimension has entered our collective, and global, conversation.


In the US James Comey, the former FBI director sacked by Donald Trump, released his memoirs and did a round of TV interviews. The FBI has not always enjoyed or deserved public trust – under its founder, the bigoted and brutal J Edgar Hoover, minorities and trade unionists had good reason to fear it – but in recent decades it came to be seen as one of the trusted arbiters of American life, a non-partisan referee whose word would be accepted. That would be truer still of the figure at the helm, the nation’s top law enforcement officer.


Now, of course it’s natural that Comey’s book would not be hailed as a definitive, objective account of recent, highly contested events. It was not sworn testimony, but an autobiography with all the self-flattery and exculpation associated with that genre. But what was striking was the casual dismissal even of the facts in the book. Trump and the Republican party instantly trashed the ex-director – himself a Republican – launching a website: lyincomey.com. You can argue about Comey’s judgment and his self-righteousness – which make parts of the book read like reflections of The Simpsons’ Ned Flanders – but his opponents go further, waving aside even that which is verifiably true.


The more egregious example is also the more serious. At a concert in Barcelona, the former Pink Floyd star Roger Waters accused the Syria Civil Defence, or White Helmets – the volunteers who pull survivors from the rubble of bomb attacks, and are widely credited with saving thousands of civilian lives – of being “a fake organisation that exists only to create propaganda for the jihadists and terrorists”.

That claim, which has been repeatedly debunked, was instantly applauded and spread by the same crowd of pro-Russia voices on the far left and far right who have served so dutifully as Assad’s online cheerleaders. To them, Waters was a hero for daring to speak an unpopular truth. For everyone else, a once admired musician had joined the ranks of conspiracist cranks and apologists for a murderous dictator.

The remark by Waters fitted a story the Assad denialists have been telling for a while: that the chemical attack in Douma was fake, staged by the White Helmets and their western friends. Russian state TV even aired footage that, it claimed, showed a film set where such atrocities are cooked up. (The pictures were, in fact, taken from the set of a Syrian feature film.)

former Pink Floyd star Roger Waters
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The former Pink Floyd star Roger Waters accused the White Helmets of being “a fake organisation that exists only to create propaganda for the jihadists and terrorists”. Photograph: Pacific Press / Barcroft Images
Remember, these voices are not simply saying western air strikes were the wrong response to the killings in Douma. They are saying there were no killings in Douma. Or there were, but they didn’t involve chemical weapons. Or they did, but rebel groups were responsible. Or the whole thing was staged by Britain. The line changes with dizzying frequency.


The point is, whether it’s Comey or Syria, we are now in an era when the argument is no longer over our response to events, but the very existence of those events. It was the same story after the mass school shooting at Parkland, Florida, in February. A loud chorus of rightists was not content merely to denounce proposed gun control measures: they claimed the massacre had not happened at all, and that all those grieving parents and teenagers were “crisis actors”.

These are symptoms of a post-truth disease that’s come to be known as “tribal epistemology”, in which the truth or falsity of a statement depends on whether the person making it is deemed one of us or one of them. According to the writer David Roberts, “information is evaluated based not on conformity to common standards of evidence or correspondence to a common understanding of the world, but on whether it supports the tribe’s values and goals and is vouchsafed by tribal leaders. ‘Good for our side’ and ‘true’ begin to blur into one.”

Of course, we all suffer from confirmation bias, and all of us listen more to our friends than to our foes – but this goes further. Recall the Trump spokesperson Scottie Nell Hughes, who declared: “There’s no such thing, unfortunately, any more as facts.” For many Americans, Hughes explained, Trump’s tweets, regardless of the evidence, “are truth” simply because they come from him.


It fits that social media is the weapon of choice. Its algorithms are proven to favour virality over veracity, spreading false stories faster and wider than true ones. A mysterious pro-Assad tweeter, with no other traceable existence online, has nearly as many followers as the BBC’s Middle East editor. Meanwhile, the top story on Google News the morning after the US presidential election hailed Trump as the winner of the popular vote – even though he had lost it by nearly 3m votes. The tribe tells itself what it wants to hear.

The desire to stand with your fellow Republicans or Assad apologists is so great you’re ready to throw out not only your opponents’ arguments but their evidence too. And because trust in all the previously respected referees – from the media to human rights organisations to the FBI – has collapsed, you refuse to believe anything and anyone that contradicts you.

The danger this poses is clear. Comey’s moment will pass, but eventually his predecessor at the FBI, special counsel Robert Mueller, will deliver his report into the Trump campaign’s alleged collusion with Russia. Already Trump’s Fox News outriders are trashing Mueller – another Republican-appointed straight arrow whose honesty has never been credibly questioned – branding him biased, corrupt, even “the head of a crime family”. That will make it easier to ignore his findings, however damning. If Richard Nixon were in office now, even Watergate would not be Watergate: his own tribe would simply dismiss the hard, factual evidence against him.

If Nixon were in office now, Watergate would not be Watergate: his tribe would simply dismiss the hard evidence
As for Syria, Waters and the rest may seem like fringe voices, but such thinking eventually leaks into the mainstream. On yesterday’s Question Time, Emily Thornberry echoed the Russian claim that chemical weapons inspectors were being kept out of Douma by UN red tape and health and safety rules – when in fact it is Assad and Russia keeping them out: long enough, presumably, to ensure that by the time they’re granted access the crucial evidence will have been cleared away.

It makes for a chilling landscape, a world where atrocities are committed twice over – once when they are done, and again when they are denied. Not decades later, but even as the dead are still being buried. The great division of our time may not, after all, be between left and right or open and closed, but something more fundamental still: between what is true and what is false.

• Jonathan Freedland is a Guardian columnist

[Pretty Boy]

I'm not going to quote the post above because of it's length but it's a decent read.

I tried to make a similar point, less thoroughly or eloquently admittedly, a while back and was picked up on for it but I stand by it. They way we perceive and react to events is influenced by our own world view. This isn't just with major events either. I would still argue that if you shuffled about a few of the personalities and accusations involved in recent events then many peoples view of the available facts and circumstancial evidence would be completely flipped; I don't exclude myself from that either.

[GreenLake]

Think the quote I referenced was actually from the Spreiz lab (?) your link wasn't to RT (my mistake!!) but it may as well have been, as it seemed to take its "news" references solely from RT and the FM - Anyway, as RT is not a news organisation, but Putin's propaganda instrument such links are essentially worthless ...

The Swiss Government has also stated that it accepts the findings of the Spreiz lab regarding the Nov. toxin

The OPCW has explicitly stated that FM Lawrow's assertions are erroneous, so yes he probably did just make it up - nothing new there then :greengrin


OPENING STATEMENT BY THE DIRECTOR-GENERAL TO THE EXECUTIVE COUNCIL AT ITS FIFTY-NINTH MEETING (OPCW)
Extract
"As it was clearly shown in the detailed and technical presentation, we should not have an iota of doubt on the reliability of the system of the OPCW Designated Laboratories. The Labs were able to confirm the identity of the chemical by applying existing, well-established procedures. There was no other chemical that was identified by the Labs. The precursor of BZ that is referred to in the public statements, commonly known as 3Q, was contained in the control sample prepared by the OPCW Lab in accordance with the existing quality control procedures. Otherwise it has nothing to do with the samples collected by the OPCW Team in Salisbury. This chemical was reported back to the OPCW by the two designated labs and the findings are duly reflected in the report."






RT was definitely the main source of that article. :greengrin

I still think whole story is full of inconsistencies and it reads like an unconvincing B movie script. People being asked to launder their clothing to decontaminate them from a deadly nerve agent. Why not dispose of them? Yet they are removing toxic park benches and demolishing the Skripal's home. The victims survived a deadly nerve agent and yet we have not heard what they have to say about the attack. I am baffled and extremely curious about what happened as a chemist and also an ordinary person. I also want to know who exactly is to blame and I sure hope these agents don't fall into the hands of terrorists.

I get that there are groups with political agendas jumping on this but a lot of people just want the facts and data made available. They seem to be trickling out while the diplomatic war is waged in full public view.

I'm still wondering why that MI6 agent was found dead locked up inside his bag.

[GreenLake]

I'm not going to quote the post above because of it's length but it's a decent read.

I tried to make a similar point, less thoroughly or eloquently admittedly, a while back and was picked up on for it but I stand by it. They way we perceive and react to events is influenced by our own world view. This isn't just with major events either. I would still argue that if you shuffled about a few of the personalities and accusations involved in recent events then many peoples view of the available facts and circumstancial evidence would be completely flipped; I don't exclude myself from that either.

I can understand being vulnerable to my world view as an ordinary person but would hope journalists are able to travel outside of their own world view when writing articles. I'm not sure many do these days.

[SkintHibby]

Russia defends majority Russian people in East Ukraine and Crimea.

It's a no brainer really.

Russia invited to defend Syria by the legitimate legal Syrian government.

It's a no brainer really.


Anything else is just western propaganda and the dafties on here fall for it.:agree:

[Just Alf]

Russia defends majority Russian people in East Ukraine and Crimea.

It's a no brainer really.

Russia invited to defend Syria by the legitimate legal Syrian government.

It's a no brainer really.


Anything else is just western propaganda and the dafties on here fall for it.:agree:Im hoping you're simply fishing, or do you truly believe ethnic cleansing is acceptable?


Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[Betty Boop]

Russia defends majority Russian people in East Ukraine and Crimea.

It's a no brainer really.

Russia invited to defend Syria by the legitimate legal Syrian government.

It's a no brainer really.


Anything else is just western propaganda and the dafties on here fall for it.:agree:

Couldn't agree more.

[lord bunberry]

Im hoping you're simply fishing, or do you truly believe ethnic cleansing is acceptable?


Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
He also believes that the government in Syria is legitimate and legal. There’s no point in engaging with someone who’s views are so entrenched that they can’t see what’s staring them in the face. In these situations I would take what anyone involved in this conflict says with a pinch of salt, but to paint the Syrian government and the Russians as some sort of bastions of virtue is utterly laughable.

[Betty Boop]

He also believes that the government in Syria is legitimate and legal. There’s no point in engaging with someone who’s views are so entrenched that they can’t see what’s staring them in the face. In these situations I would take what anyone involved in this conflict says with a pinch of salt, but to paint the Syrian government and the Russians as some sort of bastions of virtue is utterly laughable.

Anything less than endorsement of the Government line regarding the alleged chemical attack in Douma, and the poisoning of the Skirpals in Salsibury is automatically seen as support for Assad and the Russians. With our track record in the Middle East you can hardly blame folk for being sceptical.:na na:

[Betty Boop]

I can understand being vulnerable to my world view as an ordinary person but would hope journalists are able to travel outside of their own world view when writing articles. I'm not sure many do these days.

Robert Fisk and Patrick Cockburn in the Independent have excellent pieces in the Independent.

[Eaststand]

Robert Fisk and Patrick Cockburn in the Independent have excellent pieces in the Independent.

What newspaper is it in mate ?


:-)
GGTTH

[lord bunberry]

Anything less than endorsement of the Government line regarding the alleged chemical attack in Douma, and the poisoning of the Skirpals in Salsibury is automatically seen as support for Assad and the Russians. With our track record in the Middle East you can hardly blame folk for being sceptical.:na na:
I’m sceptical as well, but I don’t go around believing everything is a conspiracy or that one side is always right, and the other is wrong. Assad is a tyrant and Putin is a very dangerous man. To paint these two as whiter than white is wrong. On the other side we have a lunatic and a woman who will do anything to stay in power. Trust and honesty is not something I associate with anyone in this conflict.
Meanwhile the Syrian people are being killed in a proxy war in order to stop the main protagonists from killing each other directly.

[Just Alf]

I’m sceptical as well, but I don’t go around believing everything is a conspiracy or that one side is always right, and the other is wrong. Assad is a tyrant and Putin is a very dangerous man. To paint these two as whiter than white is wrong. On the other side we have a lunatic and a woman who will do anything to stay in power. Trust and honesty is not something I associate with anyone in this conflict.
Meanwhile the Syrian people are being killed in a proxy war in order to stop the main protagonists from killing each other directly.Just to be clear... I 100% agree with your last paragraph. On the other hand my own comment was really targeted at Skints 1st paragraph (crimea/East Ukraine).... Ignoring stuff that's in the public domain that's contrary to your argument without some form of reply is always going to make you look like an "apologist"

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Anything less than endorsement of the Government line regarding the alleged chemical attack in Douma, and the poisoning of the Skirpals in Salsibury is automatically seen as support for Assad and the Russians. With our track record in the Middle East you can hardly blame folk for being sceptical.:na na:

Its a nonsense argument though. Nobody is sayinh dont be sceptical, or just mindlessly believe everything that the UK govt says.

What people are saying is that the evidence all points to russia so far - if you have some other evidence then fair enough, but hopelessly transparent, and often contradictory propaganda from a govt with a long and inglorious record of opression, lying, duplicity amd aggressive actions, not to mention very similat to these type of assassinations, is not evidence.

As far as i am aware, there is not a single, credible source that doubts the UK interpretation of events.

Tge UK govt could be wrong, it could be lying. But the OVERWHELMING weight of evidence, probability etc supports the UK govt view of events.

Those who dont believe the UK govt simply do not want to believe the UK govt, and therefore it is not a case of evidemce, it is a case of irrational belief, bias or just good old trolling.

[Betty Boop]

Its a nonsense argument though. Nobody is sayinh dont be sceptical, or just mindlessly believe everything that the UK govt says.

What people are saying is that the evidence all points to russia so far - if you have some other evidence then fair enough, but hopelessly transparent, and often contradictory propaganda from a govt with a long and inglorious record of opression, lying, duplicity amd aggressive actions, not to mention very similat to these type of assassinations, is not evidence.

As far as i am aware, there is not a single, credible source that doubts the UK interpretation of events.

Tge UK govt could be wrong, it could be lying. But the OVERWHELMING weight of evidence, probability etc supports the UK govt view of events.

Those who dont believe the UK govt simply do not want to believe the UK govt, and therefore it is not a case of evidemce, it is a case of irrational belief, bias or just good old trolling.
Where is this overwhelming weight of evidence?

[Just Alf]

Where is this overwhelming weight of evidence?

Selectively quoting weakens yer argument.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Where is this overwhelming weight of evidence?

Ok, firstly the murder weapon. Invented by, and known to be posessed by the russian govt. Identity verified by both the uk chemical weapons institute at porton down, and the international body. It was also made clear it was a very high quality version of the chemical.

Secondly, the reaction of Russia. If innocent, surely you would throw open your facilities and expertise to help to try and solve the crime? Instead, they have obstructed, and refused to accept the verdict of the international body.

Thirdly, and linked to the above, is the campaign of disinformation and obfuscation from the russian govt and the russian media (one and the same, of course) - they have taken contradictory positions, and offered ridiculous statements to the foriegn media, while giving thinly-veiled admissions and glaoting to their domestic audience.

Fourth, motive - he was a national traitor to Russia, who by lving in, and no doubt helping the Uk and western agencies, was an active security threat, not to mention a very embarrasing reminder of the superiority of the western way of life, and an advertisement to all other russian agents of just what they too could have, if they defected. He had given up, as i understand it, dozens and dozens of russian agents in Europe, neutering their intelligence capabilities for years.

Fifth, on the principle that past actions are the best predictor of future behaviour, russia has form for this kind of assasination, an assasination that is carried out in such a way as to be brutal, have deniability (ie not be caught in the act) but at the same time to leave the intended audience in no dount who had ordered it. Litvinenko (in the uk, no less), the poisoning of the defector on london bridge in the 70s, anf of course the poisoning of the ukranian opposition leader in the 2000s

Sixth - the entire western world, upon hearing the evidence and being party to the intelligence, have agreed it was russia. As have (i think) the leader of our own opppsition upon receiving an intelligence briefing via the privy council.

Seventh - that you have one govt that has ruthlessly persecuted and crushed any effective opposition, and any free press, led by a former KGB agent, who is now effectively a dictator, and who has increasingly expanded his foreign policy to be assertive and aggressive, and whose client state in syria, with their explicit support, is also using chemical weapons.

Eight - the UK govt is unstablr and unpopular, it is beset with problems to deal with, has tonface scrutiny from an active oppostion, not to mention a sceptical public and a very activitist investigative media. And also, the political part of the govt cannot just order the civil service around to do whatever it wants, the civil service is independently minded (to a degree) and will actively work against a govt that is acting in an irrssponsbile manner.

Nine - the impossibility of conspiracy - ambulance services, soctors, police, fire brigade, civil service, local authorities, military, scientists, the intelligence agencies, 25 odd countries around the world, would all habe to be 'in' on the conspiracy - simply not feasible.

Ten - the complete absence of motive - why would the uk govt pick a fight with russia on this, and in the process damage the likelihood of future russian defectors, and the reputation of the uk security services? The uk already has bad relations with russia, it needs no pretext to make them worse, and it deepens tensions with a more powerful enemy that the Uk coyldnt take on.

Eleven - the social media campaign that has followed it, is exactly the sort of thing that russia has developed considerable expertise in, and has deployed recently- a long standing tactic (but not method, obviously) of using the wests freedoms against it by stoking up what Stalin called his 'useful idiots' in the west to undermine their own govt, therefore doing russias bidding for them.

I admit none of that is conclusive, but there can be no conclusive evidence, thats not how these things work, certainly not in public. But as far as i am aware, there is not a single credible piece of evidence supporting the theory that somdbody else did it. That seems pretty overwhelming to me.

Im not discounting the possibility, and if there was evidence i would reconsider my view, but i haven't seen it. I am not naive, i dont think the UK is above dodgy actions, and i dont doubt we have active operations in russia designed to undermine them. But no uk govt woupd ever undertake a chemical weapons attack of this sort on its own soil, its ludicrous and the downsides far exceed the potential benefits.

Now, i pass it over to you to provide the evidence for the counter-narrative?

[One Day Soon]

Apols foe the long post, but this article by the Guardian's Jonathan Freedland is worth posting - it seems particuarly appropriate to both this thread and internet discussions more generally.


The great divide of our times is not left v right, but true v false
Jonathan Freedland
Jonathan Freedland
The denigration of Robert Mueller and the White Helmets shows the extent to which provable facts are now under siege


There was a time when, even if we disagreed about the remedy, we did at least agree that the patient was sick. We might argue about the meaning of this or that event, but all sides usually accepted that the event in question had at least happened. No longer. A new and unsettling dimension has entered our collective, and global, conversation.


In the US James Comey, the former FBI director sacked by Donald Trump, released his memoirs and did a round of TV interviews. The FBI has not always enjoyed or deserved public trust – under its founder, the bigoted and brutal J Edgar Hoover, minorities and trade unionists had good reason to fear it – but in recent decades it came to be seen as one of the trusted arbiters of American life, a non-partisan referee whose word would be accepted. That would be truer still of the figure at the helm, the nation’s top law enforcement officer.


Now, of course it’s natural that Comey’s book would not be hailed as a definitive, objective account of recent, highly contested events. It was not sworn testimony, but an autobiography with all the self-flattery and exculpation associated with that genre. But what was striking was the casual dismissal even of the facts in the book. Trump and the Republican party instantly trashed the ex-director – himself a Republican – launching a website: lyincomey.com. You can argue about Comey’s judgment and his self-righteousness – which make parts of the book read like reflections of The Simpsons’ Ned Flanders – but his opponents go further, waving aside even that which is verifiably true.


The more egregious example is also the more serious. At a concert in Barcelona, the former Pink Floyd star Roger Waters accused the Syria Civil Defence, or White Helmets – the volunteers who pull survivors from the rubble of bomb attacks, and are widely credited with saving thousands of civilian lives – of being “a fake organisation that exists only to create propaganda for the jihadists and terrorists”.

That claim, which has been repeatedly debunked, was instantly applauded and spread by the same crowd of pro-Russia voices on the far left and far right who have served so dutifully as Assad’s online cheerleaders. To them, Waters was a hero for daring to speak an unpopular truth. For everyone else, a once admired musician had joined the ranks of conspiracist cranks and apologists for a murderous dictator.

The remark by Waters fitted a story the Assad denialists have been telling for a while: that the chemical attack in Douma was fake, staged by the White Helmets and their western friends. Russian state TV even aired footage that, it claimed, showed a film set where such atrocities are cooked up. (The pictures were, in fact, taken from the set of a Syrian feature film.)

former Pink Floyd star Roger Waters
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The former Pink Floyd star Roger Waters accused the White Helmets of being “a fake organisation that exists only to create propaganda for the jihadists and terrorists”. Photograph: Pacific Press / Barcroft Images
Remember, these voices are not simply saying western air strikes were the wrong response to the killings in Douma. They are saying there were no killings in Douma. Or there were, but they didn’t involve chemical weapons. Or they did, but rebel groups were responsible. Or the whole thing was staged by Britain. The line changes with dizzying frequency.


The point is, whether it’s Comey or Syria, we are now in an era when the argument is no longer over our response to events, but the very existence of those events. It was the same story after the mass school shooting at Parkland, Florida, in February. A loud chorus of rightists was not content merely to denounce proposed gun control measures: they claimed the massacre had not happened at all, and that all those grieving parents and teenagers were “crisis actors”.

These are symptoms of a post-truth disease that’s come to be known as “tribal epistemology”, in which the truth or falsity of a statement depends on whether the person making it is deemed one of us or one of them. According to the writer David Roberts, “information is evaluated based not on conformity to common standards of evidence or correspondence to a common understanding of the world, but on whether it supports the tribe’s values and goals and is vouchsafed by tribal leaders. ‘Good for our side’ and ‘true’ begin to blur into one.”

Of course, we all suffer from confirmation bias, and all of us listen more to our friends than to our foes – but this goes further. Recall the Trump spokesperson Scottie Nell Hughes, who declared: “There’s no such thing, unfortunately, any more as facts.” For many Americans, Hughes explained, Trump’s tweets, regardless of the evidence, “are truth” simply because they come from him.


It fits that social media is the weapon of choice. Its algorithms are proven to favour virality over veracity, spreading false stories faster and wider than true ones. A mysterious pro-Assad tweeter, with no other traceable existence online, has nearly as many followers as the BBC’s Middle East editor. Meanwhile, the top story on Google News the morning after the US presidential election hailed Trump as the winner of the popular vote – even though he had lost it by nearly 3m votes. The tribe tells itself what it wants to hear.

The desire to stand with your fellow Republicans or Assad apologists is so great you’re ready to throw out not only your opponents’ arguments but their evidence too. And because trust in all the previously respected referees – from the media to human rights organisations to the FBI – has collapsed, you refuse to believe anything and anyone that contradicts you.

The danger this poses is clear. Comey’s moment will pass, but eventually his predecessor at the FBI, special counsel Robert Mueller, will deliver his report into the Trump campaign’s alleged collusion with Russia. Already Trump’s Fox News outriders are trashing Mueller – another Republican-appointed straight arrow whose honesty has never been credibly questioned – branding him biased, corrupt, even “the head of a crime family”. That will make it easier to ignore his findings, however damning. If Richard Nixon were in office now, even Watergate would not be Watergate: his own tribe would simply dismiss the hard, factual evidence against him.

If Nixon were in office now, Watergate would not be Watergate: his tribe would simply dismiss the hard evidence
As for Syria, Waters and the rest may seem like fringe voices, but such thinking eventually leaks into the mainstream. On yesterday’s Question Time, Emily Thornberry echoed the Russian claim that chemical weapons inspectors were being kept out of Douma by UN red tape and health and safety rules – when in fact it is Assad and Russia keeping them out: long enough, presumably, to ensure that by the time they’re granted access the crucial evidence will have been cleared away.

It makes for a chilling landscape, a world where atrocities are committed twice over – once when they are done, and again when they are denied. Not decades later, but even as the dead are still being buried. The great division of our time may not, after all, be between left and right or open and closed, but something more fundamental still: between what is true and what is false.

• Jonathan Freedland is a Guardian columnist

Superb. :top marks

[JeMeSouviens]

This is OJ Simpson all over again.

[One Day Soon]

This is OJ Simpson all over again.

Wrong thread? :confused:

[JeMeSouviens]

Wrong thread? :confused:

No, really.

The evidence all points to OJ/Russia. Only OJ/Russia have a motive. The constituency of African-Americans/Lefties profoundly dislikes/distrusts the US police/UK gov* to the point where they are willing it not to be true and happy to believe any old conspiracy theory. The outcome, ie. who's guilty?, becomes nothing to do with the truth and everything about who you "root for".


* sometimes with very good reason, obv.

[Hibrandenburg]

No, really.

The evidence all points to OJ/Russia. Only OJ/Russia have a motive. The constituency of African-Americans/Lefties profoundly dislikes/distrusts the US police/UK gov* to the point where they are willing it not to be true and happy to believe any old conspiracy theory. The outcome, ie. who's guilty?, becomes nothing to do with the truth and everything about who you "root for".


* sometimes with very good reason, obv.

If the glove is too small for Vladimir does that mean Donald did it? :hmmm:

[JeMeSouviens]

If the glove is too small for Vladimir does that mean Donald did it? :hmmm:

There's no way it'd fit those YUGE HANDS!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

No, really.

The evidence all points to OJ/Russia. Only OJ/Russia have a motive. The constituency of African-Americans/Lefties profoundly dislikes/distrusts the US police/UK gov* to the point where they are willing it not to be true and happy to believe any old conspiracy theory. The outcome, ie. who's guilty?, becomes nothing to do with the truth and everything about who you "root for".


* sometimes with very good reason, obv.

Its a good analogy.

People who dont believe the 'mainstream' view simply do not want to believe it.

[Colr]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/29/bp-chief-poisoned-russia-plot-claims-former-colleague/

[RyeSloan]

Quelle suprise Russians flatly denying MH17 missile findings today...

[speedy_gonzales]

Quelle suprise Russians flatly denying MH17 missile findings today...

Also known as the $häggy defence,,,,"It wasn't me!".

[speedy_gonzales]

Copied from the BBC re latest MH17 revelations;
"Russia had previously blamed a Ukrainian military pilot, Capt Vladyslav Voloshyn, who had flown a series of missions against the Russian-backed separatists.

Capt Voloshyn apparently killed himself in March."

Seems to happen a lot to Russian citizens these days!

[Jim44]

On the Beeb News this morning.

Ukraine's Prime Minister Volodymyr Groysman has accused Russia of being behind the killing in Kiev of the Russian journalist Arkady Babchenko.
"I am confident that the Russian totalitarian machine did not forgive him his honesty and principled stance," the prime minister posted on Facebook.
A Kremlin critic, Babchenko was gunned down outside his apartment on Tuesday.
Russia has called for an investigation but said "bloody crimes" had become routine for the "Kiev regime".
Relations between Russia and Ukraine remain tense following Russia's annexation of Crimea in 2014 and the seizure of parts of eastern Ukraine by pro-Russian forces.
What is known about the killing?
Babchenko, 41, was found bleeding at the entrance to his block of flats by his wife and died in an ambulance.
He was reportedly shot several times in the back.
Ukrainian lawmaker Anton Herashchenko said the journalist had gone out to buy some bread, and that the killer was waiting for him.
Kiev police chief Andriy Kryshchenko told local media they suspected Babchenko was killed because of his "professional activities".

[Colr]

And this afternoon, it was all a pack of lies:

Russian journalist Arkady Babchenko, widely reported to have been assassinated in Kiev on Tuesday, is alive and well.
Mr Babchenko, a high-profile critic of the Kremlin, appeared at a press conference on Ukrainian TV on Wednesday.
The head of Ukraine's security services, Vasyl Hrytsak, told reporters the "murder" had been staged

[Curried]

They say things are done for the majority
Don't believe half of what you see and none of what you hear
It's like what my painter friend Donald said to me
"Stick a fork in their ass and turn them over, they're done"

[PeeJay]

And this afternoon, it was all a pack of lies:

Russian journalist Arkady Babchenko, widely reported to have been assassinated in Kiev on Tuesday, is alive and well.
Mr Babchenko, a high-profile critic of the Kremlin, appeared at a press conference on Ukrainian TV on Wednesday.
The head of Ukraine's security services, Vasyl Hrytsak, told reporters the "murder" had been staged

An "interesting development" - the Ukrainian authorities claim they have apprehended the "hit man" - a Ukrainian citizen - as part of the operation of staging Arkadij Babtschenko's death ...

[silverhibee]

Seems to have happened again, 2 people fighting for their life after being exposed to novichok nerve agent.

[heretoday]

These latest were substance abusers who went through the bins looking for stuff. Seems as though they got more than they bargained for.

[cabbageandribs1875]

the poor woman has died


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44760875

Police have launched a murder inquiry after a woman exposed to nerve agent Novichok in Wiltshire died.

Dawn Sturgess, 44, died in hospital on Sunday evening after falling critically ill on 30 June.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Copied from the BBC re latest MH17 revelations;
"Russia had previously blamed a Ukrainian military pilot, Capt Vladyslav Voloshyn, who had flown a series of missions against the Russian-backed separatists.

Capt Voloshyn apparently killed himself in March."

Seems to happen a lot to Russian citizens these days!



only those that oppose the terrorist dictator Putin

[Chic Murray]

These latest were substance abusers who went through the bins looking for stuff. Seems as though they got more than they bargained for.

That is merely conjecture, neither has made a statement, and one never will.

[johnbc70]

Two Russian nationals have been named as suspects in the poisoning of former Russian spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia.

There is "sufficient evidence" to charge Alexander Petrov and Ruslan Boshirov over the attack in Salisbury, Scotland Yard and the CPS say.

[Jim44]

Two Russian nationals have been named as suspects in the poisoning of former Russian spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia.

There is "sufficient evidence" to charge Alexander Petrov and Ruslan Boshirov over the attack in Salisbury, Scotland Yard and the CPS say.

Poor guys. Enjoying a holiday in the wrong place at the wrong time. :rolleyes: They must be innocent as Russia has said their names mean nothing to them.

[Hibrandenburg]

Two Russian nationals have been named as suspects in the poisoning of former Russian spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia.

There is "sufficient evidence" to charge Alexander Petrov and Ruslan Boshirov over the attack in Salisbury, Scotland Yard and the CPS say.

I doubt very much they will ever stand trial.

[Hibbyradge]

I doubt very much they will ever stand trial.

Why do you say that?

[Colr]

Radio 4 programme (The Reunion, I think) drew some interesting parallels with the Georgi Markov murder back in 1978. Especially, the obfuscation from the perpetrators.

[Hibs Class]

Why do you say that?

Russia won't extradite them, or put them in a position where a european arrest warrant can be exercised.

Radio 4 news article on it tonight was interesting. In essence they said that by using the method and toxin they did, the Russians would have known it would be traced back to them and that was part of their plan.

[Hibrandenburg]

Why do you say that?

Their real identities will never be known. The names our government have from their passports will be false and they will disappear off the face of the earth. Russia will deny they ever existed, contest the photographic evidence as non conclusive and even if in 25 years or so the British Secret Service track them down they will never be extradited.

[Ryan69]

I dont believe a word the Government say anymore,and this is simply a we have to make it seem like we found them.

Like one of the high ranking political figures in Russia said,there are many different things a Russian has to provide to enter the UK including fingerprints.
Give us the fingerprint....and we will look into it.

UK Government cant even do the basic thing like that.

Plus one of the names is like the Russian equivalent of John Smith(ridiculously common),the other is spelt differently from how it would be in Russia.

[Hibbyradge]

I dont believe a word the Government say anymore,and this is simply a we have to make it seem like we found them.

Like one of the high ranking political figures in Russia said,there are many different things a Russian has to provide to enter the UK including fingerprints.
Give us the fingerprint....and we will look into it.

UK Government cant even do the basic thing like that.

Plus one of the names is like the Russian equivalent of John Smith(ridiculously common),the other is spelt differently from how it would be in Russia.

You think the government always lies? I know you love a conspiracy theory, but that's taking it too far.

The finger prints are irrelevant given that Russia have the suspects' photographs, but if the prints were provided at the border, the UK will be able to retrieve them.

Presumably, the people in the photos will come forward to easily prove their innocence if the UK has just made it all up.

As for the common name argument, do all spies have to have unique names? I didn't know that.

I have a very common foreign surname. Would you refuse to believe that I'd committed a crime because of that?

Who do you think did the poisoning?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You think the government always lies? I know you love a conspiracy theory, but that's taking it too far.

The finger prints are irrelevant given that Russia have the suspects' photographs, but if the prints were provided at the border, the UK will be able to retrieve them.

Presumably, the people in the photos will come forward to easily prove their innocence if the UK has just made it all up.

As for the common name argument, do all spies have to have unique names? I didn't know that.

I have a very common foreign surname. Would you refuse to believe that I'd committed a crime because of that?

Who do you think did the poisoning?

I would have though as spys, they wouldn't have flown BA but would have been brought over as 'diplomats' to private airfields in private planes.

Also if you think the UK govt always lies, why do you believe the Russian govt?

[G B Young]

I dont believe a word the Government say anymore,and this is simply a we have to make it seem like we found them.

Like one of the high ranking political figures in Russia said,there are many different things a Russian has to provide to enter the UK including fingerprints.
Give us the fingerprint....and we will look into it.

UK Government cant even do the basic thing like that.

Plus one of the names is like the Russian equivalent of John Smith(ridiculously common),the other is spelt differently from how it would be in Russia.

The Government made a point of thanking the SNP for their support in condemning Russia for the attack. In fact there has been strong support for the Government's stance from all parties, with just the one dissenter...the one and only Inspector Corbyn:

The mystery of the Salisbury novichok: Another triumphant case for Inspector Corbyn

by Michael Deacon




Say Jeremy Corbyn (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2018/03/10/would-take-jeremy-corbyns-fans-admit-isnt-saint/) were prime minister. How would he respond to an attack on Britain by a foreign regime?

Perhaps we should look at how he responded to the Salisbury novichok attack in March (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/09/sleepy-salisbury-became-epicentre-global-spy-murder-plot/). First, he cast doubt on whether the Russians really were the culprits. And then, remarkably, he urged Theresa May to submit a sample of the novichok to the Russians themselves (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/03/20/jeremy-corbyn-russia-must-given-novichok-sample-would-still/) – so that they could examine it in their own laboratory, and tell us “categorically one way or the other” whether it was theirs.

A foolproof plan. If, in the end, Mr Corbyn doesn’t quite make it to 10 Downing Street, he could always embark on a new career as a detective.

Inspector Corbyn: “’Ello, ’ello, ’ello! What have we here then? A man, lying face down on the floor, dead as a doornail, with a bullet wound to the back of the skull. Looks suspiciously to me like a murder. Excuse me, sir – as you appear to be the only other individual present, would you mind if I asked you one or two questions?”

Gangster: “Not at all, Inspector. Go right ahead.”

Inspector Corbyn: “Much obliged, sir. First of all: is that your gun?”

Gangster: “What gun, Inspector?”




Inspector Corbyn: “The one in your hand, sir. With the little wisp of smoke coming out of the barrel. You know, sir. The gun you were pointing at the victim’s body when I entered this otherwise unoccupied room, a split second after a shot rang out.”

Gangster: “Oh, this gun! Silly me. Sorry, Inspector. No, this isn’t my gun. Never seen it before in my life. No idea whose it could be.”

Inspector Corbyn: “Well, that’s good enough for me, sir. Have a pleasant evening now. Mind how you go!”



This afternoon, to grim silence in the Commons, Mrs May confirmed that two Russian military intelligence agents (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/09/05/salisbury-poisoning-two-russians-charged-conspiracy-murder-novichok/) had been identified as suspects. She added that Russia “persistently seeks to undermine our security”, and that, ever since the Salisbury attack, Vladimir Putin’s regime had offered nothing but “obfuscation and lies” (“They even claimed that I myself invented novichok”).

Once again, however, Mr Corbyn’s remarks were notably less emphatic. The worst he found to say about the Russian regime was that it had “failed to cooperate with this investigation”, and must now “give a full account of how this nerve agent came to be based in the UK”.




Still, at least he managed to condemn someone.

“We condemn the police and security services!” declared Mr Corbyn. MPs stared at him.
“Commend!” said Mr Corbyn hurriedly, realising his mistake. “We commend the police and security services…”

Afterwards, journalists asked Mr Corbyn’s spokesman whether the Labour leader still believed that samples of the Salisbury novichok should be handed over to Russia. Somewhat to their surprise, he said yes (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-suggests-salisbury-samples-13197694). “The Russian government,” explained the spokesman confidently, “should cooperate with that.”

Well, every great detective needs a sidekick.

[Ryan69]

You think the government always lies? I know you love a conspiracy theory, but that's taking it too far.

The finger prints are irrelevant given that Russia have the suspects' photographs, but if the prints were provided at the border, the UK will be able to retrieve them.

Presumably, the people in the photos will come forward to easily prove their innocence if the UK has just made it all up.

As for the common name argument, do all spies have to have unique names? I didn't know that.

I have a very common foreign surname. Would you refuse to believe that I'd committed a crime because of that?

Who do you think did the poisoning?

Well why not provide them then?
Also if they want to solve it...speak to Russians about it! Instead of the media!

The Government are a bunch of crooks that at one point....would of been hung for treason!

When was the last time you actually said....They did a good jobs there?
I cannot even remember a situation.
They balls things up time and time again.

[CropleyWasGod]

You think the government always lies? I know you love a conspiracy theory, but that's taking it too far.

The finger prints are irrelevant given that Russia have the suspects' photographs, but if the prints were provided at the border, the UK will be able to retrieve them.

Presumably, the people in the photos will come forward to easily prove their innocence if the UK has just made it all up.

As for the common name argument, do all spies have to have unique names? I didn't know that.

I have a very common foreign surname. Would you refuse to believe that I'd committed a crime because of that?

Who do you think did the poisoning?That'll be you, Mr. Scaramanga.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Hibbyradge]

I would have though as spys, they wouldn't have flown BA but would have been brought over as 'diplomats' to private airfields in private planes.

Also if you think the UK govt always lies, why do you believe the Russian govt?

I don't think the government always lies. I guess that wasn't aimed at me, though. :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

Well why not provide them then?
Also if they want to solve it...speak to Russians about it! Instead of the media!

The Government are a bunch of crooks that at one point....would of been hung for treason!

When was the last time you actually said....They did a good jobs there?
I cannot even remember a situation.
They balls things up time and time again.

Incompetence and criminality are not the same thing.

As has been pointed out above, the fingerprints may not have been provided.

Why do you disbelieve that these 2 guys were responsible and why would the government lie about it?

[Hibbyradge]

That'll be you, Mr. Scaramanga.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

I use a gun for my assassinations.

[CropleyWasGod]

I use a gun for my assassinations.Do you expect me to believe that?

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Hibbyradge]

Do you expect me to believe that?

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

M, let me think about that.

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://nyebevannews.co.uk/former-british-ambassador-theresa-mays-doctored-skripal-killer-photos/





interesting :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

http://nyebevannews.co.uk/former-british-ambassador-theresa-mays-doctored-skripal-killer-photos/





interesting :greengrin

:faf:

That's incredible.

If it's true that the photos were doctored, then not only are the secret service liars, they're incompetent too.

I find it hard to believe that they'd make such a schoolboy error when they were trying to fool the world, but we'll see what transpires.

I'm certain that there are more than one channel for passengers so it's definitely possible that they went through separately, but the timing is remarkable.

[Beefster]

I would have though as spys, they wouldn't have flown BA but would have been brought over as 'diplomats' to private airfields in private planes.

With the amount of surveillance around, they were always going to be identified. Without a 'normal' route into the country, that would just about confirm the links to the Russian state.

[RyeSloan]

:faf:

That's incredible.

If it's true that the photos were doctored, then not only are the secret service liars, they're incompetent too.

I find it hard to believe that they'd make such a schoolboy error when they were trying to fool the world, but we'll see what transpires.

I'm certain that there are more than one channel for passengers so it's definitely possible that they went through separately, but the timing is remarkable.

They are different locations.

There is multiple channels that are identical...here they are on google:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.1610423,-0.177347,2a,75y,347.02h,79.93t/data=!3m10!1e1!3m8!1s5oGqliSNh5-ZtjgscVRsUw!2e0!3e2!7i13312!8i6656!9m2!1b1!2i17

[G B Young]

:faf:

That's incredible.

If it's true that the photos were doctored, then not only are the secret service liars, they're incompetent too.

I find it hard to believe that they'd make such a schoolboy error when they were trying to fool the world, but we'll see what transpires.

I'm certain that there are more than one channel for passengers so it's definitely possible that they went through separately, but the timing is remarkable.

They're coming through different gates which are pretty much identical but you can see wee differences.

[cabbageandribs1875]

:faf:

That's incredible.

If it's true that the photos were doctored, then not only are the secret service liars, they're incompetent too.

I find it hard to believe that they'd make such a schoolboy error when they were trying to fool the world, but we'll see what transpires.

I'm certain that there are more than one channel for passengers so it's definitely possible that they went through separately, but the timing is remarkable.


They're coming through different gates which are pretty much identical but you can see wee differences.


as much as i love conspiracy theories i'm holding back on this one as there are other photos showing them both outside and at various different places :) the timing of that one is indeed remarkable, if not impossible :greengrin maybe one of those fake things

[ronaldo7]

as much as i love conspiracy theories i'm holding back on this one as there are other photos showing them both outside and at various different places :) the timing of that one is indeed remarkable, if not impossible :greengrin maybe one of those fake things

Maybe they were in the Russian synchronized swimming team, they always get their timing to perfection. 👙

[Hibrandenburg]

as much as i love conspiracy theories i'm holding back on this one as there are other photos showing them both outside and at various different places :) the timing of that one is indeed remarkable, if not impossible :greengrin maybe one of those fake things

You're walking along side someone at the same pace for a few hundred meters and then you both walk into separate booths at the same time and probably still in step then there's a decent chance that you'll continue at the exact same pace.

Also, once you've found one suspect on cctv in one booth at any particular time then it makes sense to call up the cctv pictures from the other booths at exactly that same time if you suspect they might have an accomplice.

[Caversham Green]

The channels really aren't that long - maybe six or seven paces to the point where the pictures were taken - so it's not that surprising that two men of similar age, build and level of fitness who entered at the same time would emerge within a second of each other, particularly when there's no-one else around to hold one of them up.

Also, if you look at the open barriers on each side of the men you can see they are in slightly different positions which makes it clear they are not in the same channel. No reason to believe the pictures are doctored.

Edit: I see Hibrandenburg has beaten me to it.

[Saturday Boy]

I can’t multi quote, but Hibrandengurg and Caversham’s posts are sensible . It’s almost like conspiracy theorists have never been in an airport, or a railway station or anywhere else.

Who would have thought it.

[Caversham Green]

I can’t multi quote, but Hibrandengurg and Caversham’s posts are sensible . It’s almost like conspiracy theorists have never been in an airport, or a railway station or anywhere else.

Who would have thought it.

Craig Murray has been rubbishing the British version of events from the outset - he seems to have an axe to grind. I think there are a number of reasons why he's an ex-ambassador.

[Saturday Boy]

Craig Murray has been rubbishing the British version of events from the outset - he seems to have an axe to grind. I think there are a number of reasons why he's an ex-ambassador.

I’ve always been wary of the Diplomatic Service, after scoring 95% in the entrance exam back in the early 80s.

I think I went to the wrong school, because I then spent 40 years in the social.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I don't think the government always lies. I guess that wasn't aimed at me, though. :greengrin

Sorry No, a misquote!

[heretoday]

Maybe they were in the Russian synchronized swimming team, they always get their timing to perfection. 👙

If they don't they get sent to the salt mines. No swimming pools there.

[Saturday Boy]

If they don't they get sent to the salt mines. No swimming pools there.

Funny you should say that. I was in Romania last year watching Hibs Ladies in the Champions League, and we visited a salt mine.

It had a Ferris wheel and a small boating lake.

Not what I expected at the bottom of a 300 meter hole

[Jim44]

http://nyebevannews.co.uk/former-british-ambassador-theresa-mays-doctored-skripal-killer-photos/



interesting :greengrin

Interesting but quite worrying. I am firmly in the ‘British’ camp in this affair but when you see something like this, that doesn’t add up, you begin to doubt your judgement.

[lord bunberry]

With the amount of surveillance around, they were always going to be identified. Without a 'normal' route into the country, that would just about confirm the links to the Russian state.
Exactly and the fact that Russia couldn’t give a **** if they’re identified. Russia most probably wanted them to be identified. This is a game that’s being played out by a country that know that other than international sanctions know that they’re untouchable. They know that there will be the usual conspiracy theory idiots out in force to cast doubt on the evidence. Russia are playing the game by undermining their enemies. Nothing unusual happens in politics in the west without allegations of Russian involvement. The world is full of conspiracy theorists that claim man didn’t land on the moon, and what we’re seeing is an extension of that.

[Betty Boop]

Who gives a flying one about some double agent anyway ? If you fly with the crows........

[CapitalGreen]

Who gives a flying one about some double agent anyway ? If you fly with the crows........

Was his daughter a double agent? Or the other 2 unfortunate innocent people who were poisoned? Or the police officer poisoned while investigating?

[Beefster]

Where is this overwhelming weight of evidence?

Evidence presented...


Who gives a flying one about some double agent anyway ? If you fly with the crows........

[Hibbyradge]

Who gives a flying one about some double agent anyway ? If you fly with the crows........

What an attitude! Unbelievable.

Same exactly as the people who say things like "It was only some prostitute, Muslim, politician, Catholic" etc etc etc.

Murder is murder regardless of who was the intended victim and the fact that it was probably foreign agents makes it even more outrageous.

I'd wager a lot of money that you wouldn't be saying that if the suspects were American.

[Caversham Green]

Who gives a flying one about some double agent anyway ? If you fly with the crows........

Aye, nothing wrong with a bit of state-sponsored murder on foreign soil eh?

[One Day Soon]

Craig Murray has been rubbishing the British version of events from the outset - he seems to have an axe to grind. I think there are a number of reasons why he's an ex-ambassador.

Craig Murray, jeezo. If I wanted completely off the wall made up garbage I'd just go straight to the real thing and read David Icke instead.

[Hibrandenburg]

I've got my own conspiracy theory starting to formulate under my tinfoil hat.

Russia who have in their support for Assad not only been the cause of much of the refugee crisis but have also had a large part to play in directing the displacement of hundreds of thousands of people towards western Europe. Having done so they are now actively trying to fuel unrest between those seeking asylum and the local population in the countries they have sought refuge in an effort to stoke the fires of racial tension and destabilise individual countries.

You just have to look at the Russian English media and it is almost wall to wall reports of exaggerated interracial violence caused by refugees living in Western Europe. German journalists have recently uncovered a whole network of far right fake news media sites that are mass producing material claiming to report that Germany is on the verge of falling to Islam. Most of this stuff is produced for the Hungarian and Polish market but other former east block country's right wing are also getting in on the game. Worryingly most of these fake reports are filmed using AfD activists and politicians dubbed into the local language and there is also evidence that much of it is also funded by the AfD. Bearing in mind the AfD's association and affection for Putin it's not hard to imagine that he also has his finger in the pie and is financially supporting the AfD.

Anyone who still thinks Russia is the home of international socialism really need their heads looking at. There's parallels to be drawn between post cold war Russia and post WW1 Germany.

[One Day Soon]

I've got my own conspiracy theory starting to formulate under my tinfoil hat.

Russia who have in their support for Assad not only been the cause of much of the refugee crisis but have also had a large part to play in directing the displacement of hundreds of thousands of people towards western Europe. Having done so they are now actively trying to fuel unrest between those seeking asylum and the local population in the countries they have sought refuge in an effort to stoke the fires of racial tension and destabilise individual countries.

You just have to look at the Russian English media and it is almost wall to wall reports of exaggerated interracial violence caused by refugees living in Western Europe. German journalists have recently uncovered a whole network of far right fake news media sites that are mass producing material claiming to report that Germany is on the verge of falling to Islam. Most of this stuff is produced for the Hungarian and Polish market but other former east block country's right wing are also getting in on the game. Worryingly most of these fake reports are filmed using AfD activists and politicians dubbed into the local language and there is also evidence that much of it is also funded by the AfD. Bearing in mind the AfD's association and affection for Putin it's not hard to imagine that he also has his finger in the pie and is financially supporting the AfD.

Anyone who still thinks Russia is the home of international socialism really need their heads looking at. There's parallels to be drawn between post cold war Russia and post WW1 Germany.

That's not conspiracy theory, it's just self evident logic. And you're only touching on one theater of Russian anti-Western non-conventional warfare. There is SO much more.

[Betty Boop]

Was his daughter a double agent? Or the other 2 unfortunate innocent people who were poisoned? Or the police officer poisoned while investigating?

We were assured that just a drop of the military grade nerve agent was enough to kill hundreds.

[Hibbyradge]

We were assured that just a drop of the military grade nerve agent was enough to kill hundreds.

What's your point? :confused:

[Hibrandenburg]

We were assured that just a drop of the military grade nerve agent was enough to kill hundreds.

A very small amount could kill hundreds depending on how and where it's dispersed.

[Caversham Green]

We were assured that just a drop of the military grade nerve agent was enough to kill hundreds.

It seems five people came into direct contact with 'just a drop'. One died (collateral damage - so what) the other four would have died but for intensive medical treatment.

[Lendo]

I've got my own conspiracy theory starting to formulate under my tinfoil hat.

Russia who have in their support for Assad not only been the cause of much of the refugee crisis but have also had a large part to play in directing the displacement of hundreds of thousands of people towards western Europe. Having done so they are now actively trying to fuel unrest between those seeking asylum and the local population in the countries they have sought refuge in an effort to stoke the fires of racial tension and destabilise individual countries.

You just have to look at the Russian English media and it is almost wall to wall reports of exaggerated interracial violence caused by refugees living in Western Europe. German journalists have recently uncovered a whole network of far right fake news media sites that are mass producing material claiming to report that Germany is on the verge of falling to Islam. Most of this stuff is produced for the Hungarian and Polish market but other former east block country's right wing are also getting in on the game. Worryingly most of these fake reports are filmed using AfD activists and politicians dubbed into the local language and there is also evidence that much of it is also funded by the AfD. Bearing in mind the AfD's association and affection for Putin it's not hard to imagine that he also has his finger in the pie and is financially supporting the AfD.

Anyone who still thinks Russia is the home of international socialism really need their heads looking at. There's parallels to be drawn between post cold war Russia and post WW1 Germany.

I don't think that is necessarily a 'theory'. This seems to be pretty much exactly what their game plan is, fracture and divide western democracies, and 52% of the UK public have fallen for it.

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/salisbury-suspects-interview-reactions-twitter_uk_5b9a46b6e4b015089c0de1d6

All the way from Russia to Salisbury to see a 123m spire which was so exciting that they went back to see it again for an hour or so the next day before heading straight to Heathrow for the flight back to Moscow.

Sounds plausible, right enough.

The comments and Twitter links, particularly from the cathedral itself, are great.

Unless you're still blaming the UK government.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/salisbury-suspects-interview-reactions-twitter_uk_5b9a46b6e4b015089c0de1d6

All the way from Russia to Salisbury to see a 123m spire which was so exciting that they went back to see it again for an hour or so the next day before heading straight to Heathrow for the flight back to Moscow.

Sounds plausible, right enough.

The comments and Twitter links, particularly from the cathedral itself, are great.

Unless you're still blaming the UK government.

Putin is taking the pish.

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/it-is-a-really-good-cathedral-says-trump-20180913177285

[Chic Murray]

Craig Murray, jeezo. If I wanted completely off the wall made up garbage I'd just go straight to the real thing and read David Icke instead.

If you want to read a wall of made up garbage, you'd be better off reading the stuff John Lydon said about Saville being a paedophile, in 1978. Let's face it, both him and Icke must be bampots because the BBC would have nothing to do with them, eh?


Putin is taking the pish.

We started it.

[Hibbyradge]

We started it.

In what way?

[Pretty Boy]

So are we still believing Russia had nothing to do with it after that performance on TV? :faf:

If Brass Eye or the like had aired a segment like that it wouldn't have been funny because it would have seemed too far fetched.

[JimBHibees]

So are we still believing Russia had nothing to do with it after that performance on TV? :faf:

If Brass Eye or the like had aired a segment like that it wouldn't have been funny because it would have seemed to far fetched.

The bit where the guy went on about how wonderful Salisbury cathedral was and the amazing spire was comedy gold. :greengrin

[bigwheel]

So are we still believing Russia had nothing to do with it after that performance on TV? :faf:

If Brass Eye or the like had aired a segment like that it wouldn't have been funny because it would have seemed to far fetched.

It’s funny you mention Brass Eye. Was thinking this morning that this story is better than anything they would have dared to write ...incredible story

[Chic Murray]

In what way?

Oh, I don't know. Cockamenny stories about psychiatric patients rummaging in a skip, funding a bottle of perfume, that was actually a deadly nerve agent.

Type of thing. You'd imagine secret agents wouldn't dispose of such material so casually, and might even have more effective subterfuge in the first place.

Right in the middle of the Brexit fiasco. It's almost as if somebody invented a story to keep distract from that.

[Chic Murray]

So are we still believing Russia had nothing to do with it after that performance on TV? :faf:

If Brass Eye or the like had aired a segment like that it wouldn't have been funny because it would have seemed too far fetched.

See above

[Smartie]

It's a strange situation, because we're talking about what is (in all likelihood at this stage) a state sponsored terrorist act on British soil that has claimed the life of an innocent member of the British public, yet there is so much of it that seems funny?

I can't watch that interview without chuckling. Some of the comments on that Huffington Post page are brilliant.

This is serious and really shouldn't be funny, but it is.