Tide turning against the US National Rifles Association

[theonlywayisup]

Good to see that pressure is building up against the NRA. It's good to see some companies starting to take a stance against this organisation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43268446

When I hear anything from the NRA, I'm lost for words. How gullible are the American public to believe all the ridiculous claims? I was speaking to an American couple yesterday and they stated that at a recent mass shooting at a cinema, there was a number of citizens in the room who had 'hidden from view' guns with them. Yet, not one of them decided to use them to protect their fellow citizens being gunned down. The same will happen anywhere else, they'll use them to protect themselves but not to protect others and cause themselves to be a target for the gunman/gunmen.

Also, can you imagine you using your gun to try and take out a gunman and the police arrive with their guns - who do they decide is the 'good guy' or the 'bad guy'.

Wake up America!!!

[snooky]

Good to see that pressure is building up against the NRA. It's good to see some companies starting to take a stance against this organisation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43268446

When I hear anything from the NRA, I'm lost for words. How gullible are the American public to believe all the ridiculous claims? I was speaking to an American couple yesterday and they stated that at a recent mass shooting at a cinema, there was a number of citizens in the room who had 'hidden from view' guns with them. Yet, not one of them decided to use them to protect their fellow citizens being gunned down. The same will happen anywhere else, they'll use them to protect themselves but not to protect others and cause themselves to be a target for the gunman/gunmen.

Also, can you imagine you using your gun to try and take out a gunman and the police arrive with their guns - who do they decide is the 'good guy' or the 'bad guy'.

Wake up America!!!

I've said this before, when you have a country with the mentality of Charlton Heston who blamed the Colombine Massacre on the manufacturers of long coats (for allowing gunmen to hide their guns), then you have a major problem.
God bless America ... and save her while you're at it.

[One Day]

Good to see that pressure is building up against the NRA. It's good to see some companies starting to take a stance against this organisation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43268446

When I hear anything from the NRA, I'm lost for words. How gullible are the American public to believe all the ridiculous claims? I was speaking to an American couple yesterday and they stated that at a recent mass shooting at a cinema, there was a number of citizens in the room who had 'hidden from view' guns with them. Yet, not one of them decided to use them to protect their fellow citizens being gunned down. The same will happen anywhere else, they'll use them to protect themselves but not to protect others and cause themselves to be a target for the gunman/gunmen.

Also, can you imagine you using your gun to try and take out a gunman and the police arrive with their guns - who do they decide is the 'good guy' or the 'bad guy'.

Wake up America!!!

About bloody time

[snooky]

About bloody time

Hold on there a minute, pardner!

https://stv.tv/news/international/1409679-florida-senate-passes-safety-bill-to-restrict-rifle-sales-and-allow-teacher/

:crazy:

"When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn" :singing:

[theonlywayisup]

Mass student-led protests calling for tighter gun control are under way across the United States.

The protests - under the banner March For Our Lives - have grown out of a movement calling for change after 17 people were killed by a gunman at a high school in Florida last month.

Half a million people are expected to descend on the biggest march in Washington DC.

More than 800 sister protests are planned nationwide and abroad.

Solidarity marches have taken place in London, Edinburgh, Geneva, Sydney and Tokyo.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43526413

[theonlywayisup]

Please watch the Dunblane video, USA - powerful message. Let's hope the American's listen.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-43385518

[theonlywayisup]

Please watch the Dunblane video, USA - powerful message. Let's hope the American's listen.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-43385518

Never Again!!

March For Our Lives!!

[Sylar]

I was very fortunate today to be a part of the MFOL march in San Francisco.

Was around 60-75k people marching from the Civic Center along Market Street to Embarcadero - listening to the speeches some of these children were giving, including current students from Parkland, was absolutely humbling and uplifting in equal measures.

[hibsbollah]

I've just seen aerial footage of the protest in DC, amazing numbers, must be not far off a million people.

[theonlywayisup]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43531391

Powerful messages - please listen USA

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43574249

[hibsbollah]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43574249

Unfortunately there are videos like this, and of random acts of brutality and violence, doing the rounds on social media, via cctv and dashboard cams, increasingly regularly these days, and the police involved never seem to be held to account. It'll be interesting to see what happens to the officer concerned in that case.

[Hibrandenburg]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43574249

The US is an absolute nut house.

[Sylar]

The US is an absolute nut house.

While I've little argument, I do not see the connection between the thread and the story you've quoted.

The NRA are sqrt(****all) to do with police firearm related incidents. Hell, if the disturbing events in Houston are suitable, why wasn't there a post about the abhorrent police shooting of a young man in Sacramento? He was shot 20-odd times in his grandmother's back yard whilst holding a mobile phone in his hand...

I've no doubt that there are multiple awful shootings that are police related in the US, but this doesn't square against the mass uprising against the NRA.

[Smartie]

While I've little argument, I do not see the connection between the thread and the story you've quoted.

The NRA are sqrt(****all) to do with police firearm related incidents. Hell, if the disturbing events in Houston are suitable, why wasn't there a post about the abhorrent police shooting of a young man in Sacramento? He was shot 20-odd times in his grandmother's back yard whilst holding a mobile phone in his hand...

I've no doubt that there are multiple awful shootings that are police related in the US, but this doesn't square against the mass uprising against the NRA.

I would say there's a reasonable link between the stories.

What happens when you have guns everywhere? You have school shootings, assault rifles in the hands of nutters, and police shooting folk who clearly need help rather than needing to be killed.

This type of bizarre incident passes off every 5 minutes on Leith Walk. In America a man loses his life.

Whilst I don't think Americans themselves are yet ready to have weapons taken off the police, there is a common denominator here - guns, guns, guns.

[Hibrandenburg]

While I've little argument, I do not see the connection between the thread and the story you've quoted.

That's something you'll have to take up with the guy that posted the link.

[Hibbyradge]

While I've little argument, I do not see the connection between the thread and the story you've quoted.

The NRA are sqrt(****all) to do with police firearm related incidents. Hell, if the disturbing events in Houston are suitable, why wasn't there a post about the abhorrent police shooting of a young man in Sacramento? He was shot 20-odd times in his grandmother's back yard whilst holding a mobile phone in his hand...

I've no doubt that there are multiple awful shootings that are police related in the US, but this doesn't square against the mass uprising against the NRA.

It's not a direct connection, I accept, but it's just another symptom of the gun culture in the USA.

If the police officer had felt threatened by an unarmed man with his trousers at his ankles, there were several options open to him.

He could have got his Mace spray out. I've seen police in this country using it. It's very effective.

He could have threatened the semi naked bloke with his nightstick. Sore, but not life threatening.

His taser would have been a bit excessive in the circumstances, but hey, the guy could have been wielding a military grade erection. We should be told.

But no, he shot the poor guy twice in the chest to kill him.

There's a huge link between behaviour like this and the gun control Libby, imo.

[Sylar]

It's not a direct connection, I accept, but it's just another symptom of the gun culture in the USA.

If the police officer had felt threatened by an unarmed man with his trousers at his ankles, there were several options open to him.

He could have got his Mace spray out. I've seen police in this country using it. It's very effective.

He could have threatened the semi naked bloke with his nightstick. Sore, but not life threatening.

His taser would have been a bit excessive in the circumstances, but hey, the guy could have been wielding a military grade erection. We should be told.

But no, he shot the poor guy twice in the chest to kill him.

There's a huge link between behaviour like this and the gun control Libby, imo.

I just see them as 2 completely separate issues, personally. One is the access and lack of restrictions and checks to the public obtaining firearms, whilst one is the militarisation of the US police force.

I don't disagree with you that the general gun culture here is absurb, and unfathomable. The case you sight in particular is especially tragic. His waist and hands were both visible - he clearly wasn't armed. How much of a coward is the officer that he didn't use one of the other options you clearly identify?

But to me, that's not indicative of the issues the uprising against the NRA are based upon.

[Hibrandenburg]

I just see them as 2 completely separate issues, personally. One is the access and lack of restrictions and checks to the public obtaining firearms, whilst one is the militarisation of the US police force.

I don't disagree with you that the general gun culture here is absurb, and unfathomable. The case you sight in particular is especially tragic. His waist and hands were both visible - he clearly wasn't armed. How much of a coward is the officer that he didn't use one of the other options you clearly identify?

But to me, that's not indicative of the issues the uprising against the NRA are based upon.

For me the relationship is quite straightforward, the NRA want as few or no restrictions on weapons sales and at this they've been immensely successful. This means that there are millions of guns out there in circulation and means the police have to assume people are armed and as a consequence of that and poor training, incidents like this are bound to happen.

[Bristolhibby]

For me the relationship is quite straightforward, the NRA want as few or no restrictions on weapons sales and at this they've been immensely successful. This means that there are millions of guns out there in circulation and means the police have to assume people are armed and as a consequence of that and poor training, incidents like this are bound to happen.

Correct. Our Police get into a pagger, worst case scenario a broken jaw.
In America they almost assume they will be shot and die. That conditioning is because of the amount of guns in circulation.

It’s why a crazy eyed nutter gets killed in America, but restrained and arrested in the U.K.

J

[theonlywayisup]

Another bizarre shooting incident in the US.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43855097

A nude gunman has killed four people at a Waffle House in Nashville in the US state of Tennessee.

[theonlywayisup]

They can always rely on Trumps support.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44007312

[GreenLake]

It's safer to live in New York than London (http://time.com/5237451/londons-murder-rate-soars-as-police-struggle-fight-violent-crime/). :greengrin

[theonlywayisup]

Another school shooting in the US.

Up to eight people have been reported dead in a shooting at a Texas high school, which is on lockdown. One person is in custody after the attack at Santa Fe High School.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44173954

[snooky]

The American dream? The American nightmare more like. :crazy:

[Jones28]

Aye but if all the good guys had guns then the bad guys would be dead on the floor eh?

These people are ****ing morons.

[staunchhibby]

Another shooting in a school.Number of students dead

[theonlywayisup]

Shortly after the shooting began in the town of about 13,000 residents, a man carrying an American flag, wearing a Trump hat, and carrying a pistol on his hip approached news cameras.

The man, who did not give his name, said his goal was to "get to the school. Make America great again."

Another man then told reporters "we need prayers".

"This idiot is walking down the street with a damned pistol on his side where we just had kids get shot," he said referring to the other man.

"I'm a guns rights person. I have guns. But this idiot is walking down here and saying he needs to make America great again. That's not what America needs."



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44173954

[21.05.2016]

At least 10 shot dead in a school in Texas.

Que a week or so of "Time to change guns laws" etc etc only for yet nothing to be done. When will the penny drop for a lot of Americans?! Until they change their gun laws then sadly these incidents will continue to be common.

[Hibrandenburg]

At least 10 shot dead in a school in Texas.

Que a week or so of "Time to change guns laws" etc etc only for yet nothing to be done. When will the penny drop for a lot of Americans?! Until they change their gun laws then sadly these incidents will continue to be common.

I'm pretty disappointed at myself for not giving a ****. But at some point you just have to accept that the Americans love their guns more than they love their children and there's nothing we can do about it.

[Sylar]

I joined the March for our Lives event in San Francisco back in March, and I swear those kids gave me hope that perhaps the US wasn't entirely ****ed.

But since then, everything got real quite again, as it always does. And then this happens.

Still, the guns were legally owned and illegally obtained by the shooter. No doubt the dad is the real villain here for not better securing his firearms :rolleyes:

If only the teachers...

[lord bunberry]

I'm pretty disappointed at myself for not giving a ****. But at some point you just have to accept that the Americans love their guns more than they love their children and there's nothing we can do about it.
:agree: I feel sorry for the minority who can see that banning guns would make them all safer. I suppose you would have to live there to understand the reasons, but from the outside looking in it’s ****in madness that they use arguments like if everyone had guns this wouldn’t happen.

[21.05.2016]

I'm pretty disappointed at myself for not giving a ****. But at some point you just have to accept that the Americans love their guns more than they love their children and there's nothing we can do about it.

Exactly. Some people you just can't change the mind set of. The constitution is clearly more important than people's lives sadly.

It really doesn't get much worse than children being murdered in their classroom yet even that won't make some people see sense so what chance do you have really.

[Alex Trager]

They have genuine, and I mean genuine, fears that the govt may oppress them if their guns are taken from them. My uncle lives over there and he says that’s always an argument they use.
It’s a crazy innate fear that they have over there of the government. It’s mental truly.

[calumhibee1]

I'm pretty disappointed at myself for not giving a ****. But at some point you just have to accept that the Americans love their guns more than they love their children and there's nothing we can do about it.

Same here. I heard it and didn’t really bat an eyelid which shouldn’t be the case.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Headline in today's Daily News in the US as discussed by Simon Scharma is a stark front page using the Royal Wedding for context.

[Dinkydoo]

There is going to be an entire generation of people who's memory of high school was fearing that something like this is going to happen to your school, during their time there.

These people will all be able to vote soon.

The tide will turn.

[theonlywayisup]

Arming more teachers could help tackle gunmen targeting students if there were "four to five guns to one", a senior Texan official has said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44187718

[GreenLake]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/21/us/school-shooting-us-versus-world-trnd/index.html

[Off the bar]

More US school kids have died violently than US military personnel this year



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/18/2018-has-been-deadlier-for-schoolchildren-than-service-members/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.d00fb687c562

[Off the bar]

Another hugely depressing and completely avoidable story

https://www.ohio.com/akron/news/local/8-year-old-akron-boy-shot-by-9-year-old-cousin

[theonlywayisup]

Another mass shooting in the US. This time in Florida. Multiple fatalities being reported.

[Hibbyradge]

Thoughts and prayers.

[Hibrandenburg]

Another mass shooting in the US. This time in Florida. Multiple fatalities being reported.

Past caring, if they can't care for themselves then why should I?

[Hibs Class]

Thoughts and prayers.

Maybe Trump has seen the futility of sending thoughts and prayers. In the aftermath of yesterday's shooting he has stayed silent and instead tweeted his interpretation of his approval ratings and described himself as "your all time favourite (I hope) president".

[Chic Murray]

If they ban gun ownership tomorrow, who will hand in the guns, the good guys or the bad guys?

I wish I knew the answer, as it's a legitimate argument from the gun lobby.

[Sir David Gray]

If they ban gun ownership tomorrow, who will hand in the guns, the good guys or the bad guys?

I wish I knew the answer, as it's a legitimate argument from the gun lobby.

It's an argument but I'm not sure it's a good argument.

If gun ownership was banned tomorrow, of course it would be the bad guys who would hold onto their firearms but that cannot be an argument for not changing the law.

If it was made illegal, that would mean no more new firearms would be sold freely at supermarket stores. It would also mean that no more ammunition would be sold freely at supermarket stores which would make it harder for the bad guys to restock the firearms which are already in existence. If the guns don't hold any ammunition then they can't kill anyone.

I can't see any negatives to restricting gun ownership in the USA. The status quo is clearly not working.

There have apparently been around 9,500 gun related deaths in the USA in 2018 already and there's still more than 4 months to go until the end of the year.

That is a shocking statistic and the fact that not one major politician in the USA, with any real influence, is campaigning to change things is utterly shameful.

[Smartie]

It's an argument but I'm not sure it's a good argument.

If gun ownership was banned tomorrow, of course it would be the bad guys who would hold onto their firearms but that cannot be an argument for not changing the law.

If it was made illegal, that would mean no more new firearms would be sold freely at supermarket stores. It would also mean that no more ammunition would be sold freely at supermarket stores which would make it harder for the bad guys to restock the firearms which are already in existence. If the guns don't hold any ammunition then they can't kill anyone.

I can't see any negatives to restricting gun ownership in the USA. The status quo is clearly not working.

There have apparently been around 9,500 gun related deaths in the USA in 2018 already and there's still more than 4 months to go until the end of the year.

That is a shocking statistic and the fact that not one major politician in the USA, with any real influence, is campaigning to change things is utterly shameful.

Yep.

I don't think it's practical to think you just wave a wand and America's gun issues disappear at a stroke. There will continue to be illegal guns, there will continue to be problems and incidents for a while until the effects of changes filter through.

That's not a good reason not to make change, and you have to start somewhere. Many of the deaths to which you refer will have been caused by legally owned guns. Restricting or getting rid of those ones will at least have some effect.

It'll never happen though.

[Chic Murray]

It's an argument but I'm not sure it's a good argument.

If gun ownership was banned tomorrow, of course it would be the bad guys who would hold onto their firearms but that cannot be an argument for not changing the law.

If it was made illegal, that would mean no more new firearms would be sold freely at supermarket stores. It would also mean that no more ammunition would be sold freely at supermarket stores which would make it harder for the bad guys to restock the firearms which are already in existence. If the guns don't hold any ammunition then they can't kill anyone.

I can't see any negatives to restricting gun ownership in the USA. The status quo is clearly not working.

There have apparently been around 9,500 gun related deaths in the USA in 2018 already and there's still more than 4 months to go until the end of the year.

That is a shocking statistic and the fact that not one major politician in the USA, with any real influence, is campaigning to change things is utterly shameful.

Yes, and how many gun related deaths were there in Northern Ireland during the troubles - in a state where owning a gun was illegal.

You've just said that the bad guys would hold onto their guns, and then go on to say you can't find any negatives in banning them,, by the way. I can see one immediately.

I agree with the broad principle of banning guns in the USA, but can see massive logistical problems in achieving it.

Also, you say the status quo is not working. However, we need to consider the number of people who do use guns appropriately, such as farmers, and people living in remote areas. They have a genuine need to have weapons.

I'm playing devil's advocate to an extent. I'm sure it can be done, with careful planning, but it will take a very long time.

During that time, there will be many incidents where people will say "if we were still allowed to have a gun, that wouldn't have happened." Think about the capital punishment debate in the UK for a parallel, as to how keeping the public onside is important.

Now, capital punishment in the US. That's something that could be stopped tomorrow, but that's another story.

[Sir David Gray]

Yes, and how many gun related deaths were there in Northern Ireland during the troubles - in a state where owning a gun was illegal.

You've just said that the bad guys would hold onto their guns, and then go on to say you can't find any negatives in banning them,, by the way. I can see one immediately.

I agree with the broad principle of banning guns in the USA, but can see massive logistical problems in achieving it.

Also, you say the status quo is not working. However, we need to consider the number of people who do use guns appropriately, such as farmers, and people living in remote areas. They have a genuine need to have weapons.

I'm playing devil's advocate to an extent. I'm sure it can be done, with careful planning, but it will take a very long time.

During that time, there will be many incidents where people will say "if we were still allowed to have a gun, that wouldn't have happened." Think about the capital punishment debate in the UK for a parallel, as to how keeping the public onside is important.

Now, capital punishment in the US. That's something that could be stopped tomorrow, but that's another story.

On the subject of Northern Ireland, it has separate firearms legislation to the rest of the UK which is much less restrictive than Great Britain.

Of course the bad guys would be the ones who would hold onto their guns but if it was made illegal, or at least less legal than it is just now, then the police would have the power to confiscate the firearms that they come across. They would be able to raid properties after a tip off etc. At the moment they can do very little about it as those who own firearms are usually within the law.

You say that certain people need to have access to guns, such as farmers. Give me one good reason why it would work any differently in the USA compared with the UK. We have one of the lowest rates of gun related deaths in the world but we still allow certain members of society to own a firearm.

The USA's approach to guns is both reckless and irresponsible and all for some ridiculous notion that they are upholding some law from over 200 years ago.

[Chic Murray]

On the subject of Northern Ireland, it has separate firearms legislation to the rest of the UK which is much less restrictive than Great Britain.

Of course the bad guys would be the ones who would hold onto their guns but if it was made illegal, or at least less legal than it is just now, then the police would have the power to confiscate the firearms that they come across. They would be able to raid properties after a tip off etc. At the moment they can do very little about it as those who own firearms are usually within the law.

You say that certain people need to have access to guns, such as farmers. Give me one good reason why it would work any differently in the USA compared with the UK. We have one of the lowest rates of gun related deaths in the world but we still allow certain members of society to own a firearm.

The USA's approach to guns is both reckless and irresponsible and all for some ridiculous notion that they are upholding some law from over 200 years ago.

It would work differently in the US from the UK because the US is not the UK. They may well be holding onto laws from 200 odd years ago, but they are their laws, and it is their history, to call an ideal ridiculous because it doesn't fit in with our views is naive, and is pretty much the approach that we criticise the Americans for.

The thing that puzzles me, more than anything, is why does any of this bother us in Britain, and what does it actually have to do with us? Other than being able to cite US gun crime as a reason for not allowing our citizens to bear arms, I can't see why it is relevant to so many people in the UK.

I know when the alt.right started to get involved in debates about public health care in the UK, I found it grossly offensive that they could contribute so much, with so little understanding of the subject. I think the shoe is on the other foot here, and it is something we should leave Americans to get on with, and limit ourselves to scratching our heads as to how they got into that mess.

I accept that the difficulty in affecting the change that a section of the US population wants is not a reason for them campaigning for that change. At the same time, us at a distance should be wary of whose side we jump in on.

[Sergio sledge]

Yes, and how many gun related deaths were there in Northern Ireland during the troubles - in a state where owning a gun was illegal.

You've just said that the bad guys would hold onto their guns, and then go on to say you can't find any negatives in banning them,, by the way. I can see one immediately.

I agree with the broad principle of banning guns in the USA, but can see massive logistical problems in achieving it.

Also, you say the status quo is not working. However, we need to consider the number of people who do use guns appropriately, such as farmers, and people living in remote areas. They have a genuine need to have weapons.

I'm playing devil's advocate to an extent. I'm sure it can be done, with careful planning, but it will take a very long time.

During that time, there will be many incidents where people will say "if we were still allowed to have a gun, that wouldn't have happened." Think about the capital punishment debate in the UK for a parallel, as to how keeping the public onside is important.

Now, capital punishment in the US. That's something that could be stopped tomorrow, but that's another story.

The UK and Austrailia are two countries which (in living memory for a lot of people) instroduced gun legislation in the wake of attacks. Both countries would have had the same percieved issue where honest people turned guns in but criminals didn't.

Far from causing the ordinary person to be in more danger, shootings are (for the most part) crime related in the UK now with very little danger to the general population from gun crime.

As someone else has said, the reducing availability of ammunition and the fact that police would be able to seize guns (which they couldn't currently as they are held legally) from "bad people" when they are found would lead to a reduction in danger to the general public.

The problem that the USA probably has is that it has land borders with countries where ammunition and guns may be more readily available, however it seems to me that the kind of people that will go to the trouble of obtaining guns illegally and smuggling them in over the border from another country are also less likely to be the sort of person who would cause a school shooting or random shooting at a music festival, so at the very least it would lead to a reduction in these sort of incidents.

[mvteng]

Maybe Trump has seen the futility of sending thoughts and prayers. In the aftermath of yesterday's shooting he has stayed silent and instead tweeted his interpretation of his approval ratings and described himself as "your all time favourite (I hope) president".

Saw a tweet earlier that you can guess the colour of the shooter based on the length of time after the shooting that Trump tweets.
No tweet = white shooter

[Sir David Gray]

The UK and Austrailia are two countries which (in living memory for a lot of people) instroduced gun legislation in the wake of attacks. Both countries would have had the same percieved issue where honest people turned guns in but criminals didn't.

Far from causing the ordinary person to be in more danger, shootings are (for the most part) crime related in the UK now with very little danger to the general population from gun crime.

As someone else has said, the reducing availability of ammunition and the fact that police would be able to seize guns (which they couldn't currently as they are held legally) from "bad people" when they are found would lead to a reduction in danger to the general public.

The problem that the USA probably has is that it has land borders with countries where ammunition and guns may be more readily available, however it seems to me that the kind of people that will go to the trouble of obtaining guns illegally and smuggling them in over the border from another country are also less likely to be the sort of person who would cause a school shooting or random shooting at a music festival, so at the very least it would lead to a reduction in these sort of incidents.

I agree with the majority of your post but in terms of the USA having a land border with Mexico and therefore maybe finding it difficult to control guns coming across the border, Canada doesn't seem to have that problem. They have, by comparison, very little gun related deaths each year and have laws in place to restrict gun ownership which seems to work to a large extent.

You will never stop guns falling into the wrong hands, no matter how strict the laws are. However the alternative cannot be to allow the USA version of Tesco and Asda to be selling guns to pretty much anyone that wants one.

[Ozymandias]

It would work differently in the US from the UK because the US is not the UK. They may well be holding onto laws from 200 odd years ago, but they are their laws, and it is their history, to call an ideal ridiculous because it doesn't fit in with our views is naive, and is pretty much the approach that we criticise the Americans for.

The thing that puzzles me, more than anything, is why does any of this bother us in Britain, and what does it actually have to do with us? Other than being able to cite US gun crime as a reason for not allowing our citizens to bear arms, I can't see why it is relevant to so many people in the UK.

I know when the alt.right started to get involved in debates about public health care in the UK, I found it grossly offensive that they could contribute so much, with so little understanding of the subject. I think the shoe is on the other foot here, and it is something we should leave Americans to get on with, and limit ourselves to scratching our heads as to how they got into that mess.

I accept that the difficulty in affecting the change that a section of the US population wants is not a reason for them campaigning for that change. At the same time, us at a distance should be wary of whose side we jump in on.

For my part, its partly because I have a daughter studying in the US, but even if I didn't it's surely not a strange thing to be interested/concerned about a country with whom we have massive cultural and historical ties? The extension of your thought is that we should care nothing beyond our borders. Where do you draw the line? i don't really care about what happens in Wales or Lincolnshire for example.

Anyway, on your earlier point about it being a difficult thing for the Americans do, of course it would be. There would almost certainly be incidents and deaths as a result of any such action, but when the alternative is to do nothing, that is just a cowardly kicking of the problem into the long grass.

[Chic Murray]

For my part, its partly because I have a daughter studying in the US, but even if I didn't it's surely not a strange thing to be interested/concerned about a country with whom we have massive cultural and historical ties? The extension of your thought is that we should care nothing beyond our borders. Where do you draw the line? i don't really care about what happens in Wales or Lincolnshire for example.

Anyway, on your earlier point about it being a difficult thing for the Americans do, of course it would be. There would almost certainly be incidents and deaths as a result of any such action, but when the alternative is to do nothing, that is just a cowardly kicking of the problem into the long grass.

Of course, it's just that we seem to worry about it a lot more than the average American, and I imagine our opinions don't hold much water over there. We often forget, or just don't appreciate, what a backward/undeveloped country America is.

[Smartie]

Of course, it's just that we seem to worry about it a lot more than the average American, and I imagine our opinions don't hold much water over there. We often forget, or just don't appreciate, what a backward/undeveloped country America is.

I think most folk have an empathetic side to their nature and don't like to see unnecessary suffering anywhere, irrespective of nationality.

The advantage we have is that following the last mass shooting on these shores we tightened up the laws on handguns - and in more than 20 years since, we've not had any similar attacks. Attackers are having to be creative, by using vehicles and complicated bombs as it is so difficult to get hold of the type of weapon that makes attacks easy.

And I don't necessarily agree that America is backward or undeveloped - I view it as being similar to Scotland - horribly unequal, wonderful culture, desperate poverty in places, many fantastic people and wonderful traits and some head scratching stupidity.

[Ozymandias]

Of course, it's just that we seem to worry about it a lot more than the average American, and I imagine our opinions don't hold much water over there. We often forget, or just don't appreciate, what a backward/undeveloped country America is.

I don't think that is strictly true. Those who are interested in it over here discuss, those who aren't, don't. I think it is seldom a topic of conversation, other than in the aftermath of a mass shooting, and even then decreasingly so as the horror reduces in direct proportion to the increase in incidents.

I think it is much more to the fore in the States. It is regularly discussed across news channels, from generally pro- 2nd amendment campaigners on Fox to the more liberal mainstream outlets. As with everything in the Trump era though, the debate is increasingly polarised and the opportunity for consensus politics diminished, despite a consistent large approval for gun control measures.

[Chic Murray]

I think most folk have an empathetic side to their nature and don't like to see unnecessary suffering anywhere, irrespective of nationality.

The advantage we have is that following the last mass shooting on these shores we tightened up the laws on handguns - and in more than 20 years since, we've not had any similar attacks. Attackers are having to be creative, by using vehicles and complicated bombs as it is so difficult to get hold of the type of weapon that makes attacks easy.

And I don't necessarily agree that America is backward or undeveloped - I view it as being similar to Scotland - horribly unequal, wonderful culture, desperate poverty in places, many fantastic people and wonderful traits and some head scratching stupidity.

Comparing it to Scotland is setting the bar pretty low though. :duck

My point about us worrying about what the citizens of a democratic society chose to do with their lives (and deaths) is a bit strange when there are much greater humanitarian disasters to be worrying about.

As for tightening up laws on handguns, the interesting thing there is how many attacks like Dunblane happened in the 20 years before. The legislation was largely cosmetic, because there is no gun culture in this country.

I am not saying that Americans shouldn't ban guns, I am saying it is going to be a long time until there is a culture change. At the end of the day, the right to have a gun, and self resilience are at the heart of their culture IMO.

[Chic Murray]

I don't think that is strictly true. Those who are interested in it over here discuss, those who aren't, don't. I think it is seldom a topic of conversation, other than in the aftermath of a mass shooting, and even then decreasingly so as the horror reduces in direct proportion to the increase in incidents.

I think it is much more to the fore in the States. It is regularly discussed across news channels, from generally pro- 2nd amendment campaigners on Fox to the more liberal mainstream outlets. As with everything in the Trump era though, the debate is increasingly polarised and the opportunity for consensus politics diminished, despite a consistent large approval for gun control measures.

I'm with you. What appalled me most on my last visit to the US was an amusement attraction called "Machine Gun America". The fact that anyone could find firing live ammunition for entertainment was extremely daunting.

Ironically, my cousin in N. Carolina said she was frightened of going to London. The next day the guy opened fire in Vegas.

I much prefer living in a country where people don't have guns.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think most folk have an empathetic side to their nature and don't like to see unnecessary suffering anywhere, irrespective of nationality.

I think that is a thing of the past. The refugee crisis has shown that charity begins at home and ends at the front door.

[Smartie]

I think that is a thing of the past. The refugee crisis has shown that charity begins at home and ends at the front door.

I don't know.

I cling to the hope that the majority of people are still decent.

Yes, there are many people who couldn't care less about foreigners etc.

But I still (just about) think that the majority do care about others.

The minority don't half make a racket though.

[lord bunberry]

The whole gun situation in America shows how mad the world has become. It’s mirrored in other countries around the world in different ways. It’s not what’s best for everyone, it’s what’s politically acceptable to get a particular party or candidate re elected. If everyone concentrated on what’s best for the greater good of their country we wouldn’t be having this debate. The simple fact is that as a species we’ve evolved into a mindset that as long as I’m alright everyone else can **** off. We have corruption in some countries, we have politicians preying on the fears and vulnerability of citizens in other countries and all this happens while living standards decrease along with life expectancy.
The so called G7 countries are largely the worst offenders in all this. I’m sure I’m not alone in thinking that must be a better way to do things.

[Chic Murray]

I don't know.

I cling to the hope that the majority of people are still decent.

Yes, there are many people who couldn't care less about foreigners etc.

But I still (just about) think that the majority do care about others.

The minority don't half make a racket though.

I used to think people were decent, and empathetic, until I saw a programme about this: https://www.simplypsychology.org/milgram.html.


Basically, the majority of people are not too interested in anything but themselves, and will do whatever works for them, providing they can get somebody else to take responsibility for their actions.

In the experiment, 75% of participants were prepared to administer a lethal electric shock to someone who was failing a knowledge test, providing the person running the experiment said that they would take responsibility.

When the experiment was designed, the assumption was that at most 25% would do it and that most of them would be psychopaths. Worth watching the videos to see how little empathy, or concern the subjects had for the person about to "die", and how their concern was whether they personally would get in trouble.

[IGRIGI]

I think that is a thing of the past. The refugee crisis has shown that charity begins at home and ends at the front door.

Amusing way to write economic migrant.

[Hibrandenburg]

Amusing way to write economic migrant.

I rest my case.

[Moulin Yarns]

6 dead in targeted shootings today


"This is the new normal, if you look across the country," he said, describing the incident as a mass shooting.
"Six people lost their lives in a very short period of time."



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45505610

[21.05.2016]

Every single week theres a news story of a school or shopping mall or whatever being shot up by some lunatic in America. Bairns being gunned down and murdered in their class rooms - how much worse does it actually have to get before some Americans wake up and see what you'd think would be blatantly obvious to see - GUNS ARE NOT SAFE! It's astonishing that for a lot of Americans the penny still hasn't dropped.

[theonlywayisup]

Another shooting in the US and President Trump says "If they had protection inside, the results would have been far better"

He turns every atrocity into a rallying call for the NRA.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46002549

[Dalianwanda]

Another shooting in the US and President Trump says "If they had protection inside, the results would have been far better"

He turns every atrocity into a rallying call for the NRA.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46002549

He ignores the fact armed cops were shot too......not a mention of the victims or their families...disgrace, but not surprising

[Sir David Gray]

Another shooting in the US and President Trump says "If they had protection inside, the results would have been far better"

He turns every atrocity into a rallying call for the NRA.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46002549

Not only that but he also used today's events to turn up the rhetoric in favour of the death penalty.

Completely ignoring the elephant in the room - gun control.

[Sylar]

https://edition.cnn.com/us/live-news/california-shooting-intl/index.html

Another mass shooting, this time in Thousand Oaks, CA.

I won't bother with the "how many people have to die", because the answer doesn't matter - they. will. not. disarm.

This one hits home a little - Thousand Oaks is a small college town, just north of Malibu. I live and work for large parts of the year in a small California college town (while the University is massive, the town is pretty small), and this could easily have been there. As the Mayor of Thousand Oaks says, this can really happen anywhere. And yet they don't see the problem with that in their halls of power.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://edition.cnn.com/us/live-news/california-shooting-intl/index.html

Another mass shooting, this time in Thousand Oaks, CA.

I won't bother with the "how many people have to die", because the answer doesn't matter - they. will. not. disarm.

This one hits home a little - Thousand Oaks is a small college town, just north of Malibu. I live and work for large parts of the year in a small California college town (while the University is massive, the town is pretty small), and this could easily have been there. As the Mayor of Thousand Oaks says, this can really happen anywhere. And yet they don't see the problem with that in their halls of power.

We had a drive by shooting in the village where I live on Tuesday night after an argument between 2 parties. 3 injured and one of them severely. The only reason that the casualty count is so low is because the shooter could only get his hands on a shotgun. God knows what the outcome would have been if the guy had access to semiautomatic/automatic weapons. There's nutters all over the world and America is no different, except their nutters have almost unlimited access to a whole arsenal of military grade weaponry.

[GreenLake]

https://edition.cnn.com/us/live-news/california-shooting-intl/index.html

Another mass shooting, this time in Thousand Oaks, CA.

I won't bother with the "how many people have to die", because the answer doesn't matter - they. will. not. disarm.

This one hits home a little - Thousand Oaks is a small college town, just north of Malibu. I live and work for large parts of the year in a small California college town (while the University is massive, the town is pretty small), and this could easily have been there. As the Mayor of Thousand Oaks says, this can really happen anywhere. And yet they don't see the problem with that in their halls of power.

I lived in Ventura County for 11 years and went to that popular country music restaurant about 10 years ago. Thousand Oaks is a really quiet town with hardly any crime so this shooting will be a devastating shock.

Local nutters here are more of a threat than terrorists. I was walking somewhere recently and a kids balloon popped and few people started running for cover.

Democrats will be saying we should have more gun control and republicans will be saying everyone in the bar should have carried a concealed weapon.

What fascinates me is why are so many Americans going berserk on their own people? Is it because everyone is brought up to think the individual is the most important? Everyone is special and gets a trophy? Everyone is a winner and nobody is a loser? Is it the psych meds?

[Hibrandenburg]

I lived in Ventura County for 11 years and went to that popular country music restaurant about 10 years ago. Thousand Oaks is a really quiet town with hardly any crime so this shooting will be a devastating shock.

Local nutters here are more of a threat than terrorists. I was walking somewhere recently and a kids balloon popped and few people started running for cover.

Democrats will be saying we should have more gun control and republicans will be saying everyone in the bar should have carried a concealed weapon.

What fascinates me is why are so many Americans going berserk on their own people? Is it because everyone is brought up to think the individual is the most important? Everyone is special and gets a trophy? Everyone is a winner and nobody is a loser? Is it the psych meds?

I don't think Americans are any nuttier than any other western nation. It's the access to guns that makes their particular crackpots more dangerous. If we had the same access to guns as them, then I'm sure we'd have a similar death rate per head.

[GreenLake]

I don't think Americans are any nuttier than any other western nation. It's the access to guns that makes their particular crackpots more dangerous. If we had the same access to guns as them, then I'm sure we'd have a similar death rate per head.

Even the most extreme gun control advocate can't explain the rate of mass shootings tripling since 2011.

This chart is scary and does not correlate with total number of guns.

21392

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

We had a drive by shooting in the village where I live on Tuesday night after an argument between 2 parties. 3 injured and one of them severely. The only reason that the casualty count is so low is because the shooter could only get his hands on a shotgun. God knows what the outcome would have been if the guy had access to semiautomatic/automatic weapons. There's nutters all over the world and America is no different, except their nutters have almost unlimited access to a whole arsenal of military grade weaponry.

Some radge here stabbed 3 folk in The Grassmarket this morning, dafties everywhere! 😥

[Haymaker]

I don't think Americans are any nuttier than any other western nation. It's the access to guns that makes their particular crackpots more dangerous. If we had the same access to guns as them, then I'm sure we'd have a similar death rate per head.

When we had guns available in the UK did we have high gun deaths?

Genuine question.

[Hibrandenburg]

When we had guns available in the UK did we have high gun deaths?

Genuine question.

We've never had guns so freely available as they do in the US. Some estimates claim that there are 2 guns for every American in circulation.

[Haymaker]

We've never had guns so freely available as they do in the US. Some estimates claim that there are 2 guns for every American in circulation.

I was only 11 when the ban came in but I remember my uncle had loads of handguns, maybe he had to go through a lot of checks I don't know.

[GreenLake]

This is quite horrible and visually gives the scope of gun violence in America.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-10-27/chart-day-shows-horrific-47238-gun-incidents-us-2018

[Hibernia&Alba]

300 million guns in America and the NRA is very powerful, giving a lot of money to politicians, particualrly Republicans. Serious restrictions to gun access just aren't on the agenda, sadly. Millions of Americans, especially on the right, have a simplistic idea that guns equates to liberty and that a government which restricts guns is a tyranny. It's a peculiarly American idea.

[GreenLake]

300 million guns in America and the NRA is very powerful, giving a lot of money to politicians, particualrly Republicans. Serious restrictions to gun access just aren't on the agenda, sadly. Millions of Americans, especially on the right, have a simplistic idea that guns equates to liberty and that a government which restricts guns is a tyranny. It's a peculiarly American idea.

I get that nobody having guns would make things safer - it does in the UK for sure. It is deeply in the history of this country and I think you are dead right it won't change soon.

However, a Marine just shot young women among the other innocent victims and Marines don't shoot women and children. They have honor and code and they fight the enemy not innocents. How does a former Marine shoot young women?

There is a lot else rotten about this other than just the availability of a weapon. The mind that chose to shoot that gun is one that seems to be multiplying in number. Psychotic individuals who get bent out of shape and feel like they need to take people down with them are on the increase.

To add to the misery, fires are encroaching upon the area and the locals must feel like Hell has come upon them.

I'm driving up there in the morning to donate to the fallen officer's family - I lived 7 years in Camarillo, about 15 mins drive from that bar. He was a local small town policeman who ran bravely into that bar to face a psycho battle hardened combat veteran. He left a wife and child. RIP

I just wish the sick f**** who are upset with their lives would shoot themselves before anyone else.

[Hibrandenburg]

I was only 11 when the ban came in but I remember my uncle had loads of handguns, maybe he had to go through a lot of checks I don't know.

That and you couldn't just pop into ASDA and buy a semiautomatic with your bread and milk.

[Sylar]

https://twitter.com/NRA/status/1060256567914909702

Today in Tweets I wish were spoofs...

[Hibernia&Alba]

Shooting in a hospital in Chicago. Nowhere is sacred: places of worship and now hospitals.


https://youtu.be/6mEg-FB-8-8

[theonlywayisup]

Shooting in a hospital in Chicago. Nowhere is sacred: places of worship and now hospitals.


https://youtu.be/6mEg-FB-8-8

As others have commented having guns freely available to all is going to make such events more commonplace. Anyone with any grievance no matter how big or small has the potential to inflict damage such as this. But you need two things to align, one being the desire to go out and want to actually carry out such a deed and two being the availability of firearms. Take the second out of the equation and the number of such events drops considerably.

Also the argument that if you yourself were armed then you're safer is totally flawed. When you're running around like Matt Damon protecting yourself how will the cops distinguish the good guys from the bad guys?

[calumhibee1]

Also the argument that if you yourself were armed then you're safer is totally flawed. When you're running around like Matt Damon protecting yourself how will the cops distinguish the good guys from the bad guys?

Don’t let logic get in the way of things! Also, when was the last time a “good guy with a gun” took out a “bad guy with a gun” in these situations? We get told often enough that’s why they need them.

[CapitalGreen]

Also the argument that if you yourself were armed then you're safer is totally flawed. When you're running around like Matt Damon protecting yourself how will the cops distinguish the good guys from the bad guys?

This actually seems to be quite a common occurrence in the US.

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/416255-black-security-guard-stops-shooter-then-is-shot-by-police-while-holding?fbclid=IwAR272RpyOKecaxjCi0ec0aIMm8q7bsoUl 7EoeYnhjBqXM0hg7hcLvWfmyCY

[Hibernia&Alba]

Aye, after the last school shooting, there were Republicans who suggested the best solution would be to arm the teachers - guns in the classroom.

If only the patients in the hospital were armed too.....

[theonlywayisup]

Another shooting in the US.

Three killed at California garlic festival."What's going on?" a woman's voice asks in one video. "Who'd shoot up a garlic festival?". Well it probably doesn't help that guns are so readily available.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49147369

[DetroitHibs]

California has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. The shooter cut through a fence to avoid metal detectors and started shooting. Doesn’t matter what laws they try to implement, nothing will stop a crazy determined person from doing these horrible acts.

[Bristolhibby]

California has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. The shooter cut through a fence to avoid metal detectors and started shooting. Doesn’t matter what laws they try to implement, nothing will stop a crazy determined person from doing these horrible acts.

But let’s make gun ownership a bit more difficult. In the U.K. a crazy has a knife. In the states it’s an automatic weapon.

J

[theonlywayisup]

Sorry to say that there has been another shooting in the US.

Multiple fatalities.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49221936

Up to 20 feared dead.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/el-paso-shooting-texas-latest-cielo-vista-police-a9038281.html

[Ozyhibby]

Sorry to say that there has been another shooting in the US.

Multiple fatalities.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49221936

Up to 20 feared dead.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/el-paso-shooting-texas-latest-cielo-vista-police-a9038281.html

Another white supremacist. Probably the most dangerous terrorists in the world these days.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[theonlywayisup]

Sorry to say that there has been another shooting in the US.

Multiple fatalities.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49221936

Up to 20 feared dead.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/el-paso-shooting-texas-latest-cielo-vista-police-a9038281.html

Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton, said gun control would probably not have stopped the attack.

He added that if a "crazy" gunman launches such an attack, there is no way that law enforcement officers can be there to stop it.

"The best way is to be prepared to defend yourself," he told CBS News.

[StevesFamau5]

I have just spent the last hour arguing with a Trump supporting hardcore Christian about this recent incident.

They still could not answer the most pressing question.

Did the 20 citizens of the USA who were literally going about their business deserve to be killed in cold blood for the greater good? Are their deaths part of the 'grand plan'?

I'm not religious at all and it's just beyond my comprehension that anyone can justify this incident.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Another white supremacist. Probably the most dangerous terrorists in the world these days.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

20 dead and 24 injured so far.

It's being reported (don't think it's yet confirmed) that the shooter had written a white supremacist manifesto in which he declared his support for the guy who murdered 51 people in the mosque in New Zealand. It's said he wrote about his fear of a Latino takeover in America.

Trump has blood on his hands. His constant incendiary rhetoric about immigrants, his narrative of 'infestations', his fearmongering about the southern border, and his telling descendants of immigrants to 'go home' is extremely dangerous in a country filled with guns and which has a history of brutal racism. The right wing media over there are also complicit.The far right in America, particularly in the deep south, feels emboldened by Trump.

Of course, we say again that the gun laws won't be changed: the gun lobby is very powerful and many politicians are in their pockets. There will be more massacres and more platitudes from politicians, but no action.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton, said gun control would probably not have stopped the attack.

He added that if a "crazy" gunman launches such an attack, there is no way that law enforcement officers can be there to stop it.

"The best way is to be prepared to defend yourself," he told CBS News.

So his answer to mass shootings is more guns. What an Einstein he is.

[Colr]

So his answer to mass shootings is more guns. What an Einstein he is.

It’s beyond belief that 2 year old children were not armed when at the mall. What were their parents thinking?

[Pretty Boy]

Walmart are 'shocked' by the attack. How? It's hardly a rare occurence and you sell ammunition in your stores.

[staunchhibby]

And also the rifles or shotguns for the bullets

[Ozyhibby]

Walmart are 'shocked' by the attack. How? It's hardly a rare occurence and you sell ammunition in your stores.

Not only do they sell guns but this is how they market them.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190804/7dc9fabcddf747dff1103569fe9b9c79.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190804/a32034aec3bc10dcefaa109ece4a02b5.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DetroitHibs]

But let’s make gun ownership a bit more difficult. In the U.K. a crazy has a knife. In the states it’s an automatic weapon.

J

Completely agree with making it more difficult to own guns over here. I will correct you about the automatic weapons part. Very rarely is an automatic weapon used in these events. A fully automatic weapon is extremely hard to get hold off and requires tax stamps and costs about $15,000. It’s usually always a semiautomatic rifle that’s used.

Here’s how messed up the laws are where I live. So if I want to buy a handgun, I go to the police station and get a purchasers permit. They do a background check and issue it if I qualify. Now I have a concealed carry license, so that step is bypassed as I’ve gone through all the background checks and have to renew every 5 years.

So if I buy say a revolver or semiautomatic handgun with my license, I have to fill out paperwork at the gun store, or with and individual who is selling and then mail it to the sheriffs department who register the firearm to me. Here’s the crazy part. Rifles don’t fall under these conditions. I could got to Armslist (Gumtree for guns) find someone selling an AK47 or AR15 semiautomatic rifle and buy it with no background check, paperwork or registration. Give the seller $500 and walk off with a semiautomatic rifle..... LEGALLY. Boggles my mind.

[lapsedhibee]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190804/a32034aec3bc10dcefaa109ece4a02b5.jpg


Aye but Second Amendment.

[Sir David Gray]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190804/a32034aec3bc10dcefaa109ece4a02b5.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is that updated to include the mass shooting that's taken place in Dayton, Ohio leaving up to 10 people dead?

The gun laws in the USA are just ridiculous and the fact that so many people are being allowed to die without legislation being brought in is shameful.

[theonlywayisup]

Wow! That is the number of mass shootings not the number of people killed by mass shootings? Wonder what the latter is?


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190804/a32034aec3bc10dcefaa109ece4a02b5.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DetroitHibs]

That number 249 is pretty skewed. Basically they count four or more people injured or shot as a mass shooting. Those numbers are heavily bumped up with gang violence and shootings. Chicago’s gang and gun violence is out of control.

[Sir David Gray]

Wow! That is the number of mass shootings not the number of people killed by mass shootings? Wonder what the latter is?

It's now 251 mass shootings in the USA in 2019 and we're only 60% of the way through the year.

The number of deaths as a result of these mass shootings is currently around 275.

That's only mass shootings though, which are usually defined as 3 or 4 people being shot and killed in the same incident at roughly the same time and place.

There have been 33,028 incidents involving guns so far this year in the USA, resulting in 8,733 deaths.

The numbers are just staggering. There is a national crisis taking place every day in the USA and no-one in power is interested in doing anything about it.

[Hibrandenburg]

That number 249 is pretty skewed. Basically they count four or more people injured or shot as a mass shooting. Those numbers are heavily bumped up with gang violence and shootings. Chicago’s gang and gun violence is out of control.

It makes you wonder at the figures of how many shootings take place involving less than 4 victims. I'm past caring.

[Hibrandenburg]

It's now 251 mass shootings in the USA in 2019 and we're only 60% of the way through the year.

The number of deaths as a result of these mass shootings is currently around 275.

That's only mass shootings though, which are usually defined as 3 or 4 people being shot and killed in the same incident at roughly the same time and place.

There have been 33,028 incidents involving guns so far this year in the USA, resulting in 8,733 deaths.

The numbers are just staggering. There is a national crisis taking place every day in the USA and no-one in power is interested in doing anything about it.

Incredible stats, imagine if another western society lost 8733 soldiers fighting a war? The government would fall, but in the US it's an acceptable price to pay for the right to bare arms in peacetime. Absolutely nuts.

[Sir David Gray]

Incredible stats, imagine if another western society lost 8733 soldiers fighting a war? The government would fall, but in the US it's an acceptable price to pay for the right to bare arms in peacetime. Absolutely nuts.

Also that figure actually does not include firearm related suicides. There are over 20,000 people every year who commit suicide in the USA by using a firearm.

[weecounty hibby]

I'm not sure how they can fix this though. I think it's too late. I'm sure I read somewhere that there are three guns for every person in the US. How do you get rid of these? Its pretty disgusting though when you see advertising like above though clearly targeting kids. You wouldn't be allowed to do that with booze or fags

[Colr]

Also that figure actually does not include firearm related suicides. There are over 20,000 people every year who commit suicide in the USA by using a firearm.

Most of them will be men.

[Sir David Gray]

I'm not sure how they can fix this though. I think it's too late. I'm sure I read somewhere that there are three guns for every person in the US. How do you get rid of these? Its pretty disgusting though when you see advertising like above though clearly targeting kids. You wouldn't be allowed to do that with booze or fags

The guns are useless without ammunition. Eventually ammunition runs out (although admittedly this could take some time in the USA) and if there were then more strict gun control laws in place, it would be harder for this ammunition to be replaced therefore making the guns useless.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Not only do they sell guns but this is how they market them.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190804/7dc9fabcddf747dff1103569fe9b9c79.jpg



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That is terrifying. "Back to school, get your pencil case and get your shotgun".

[lapsedhibee]

That number 249 is pretty skewed. Basically they count four or more people injured or shot as a mass shooting. Those numbers are heavily bumped up with gang violence and shootings. Chicago’s gang and gun violence is out of control.

What number do you think should count as a mass shooting?

[Hibernia&Alba]

The news is reporting that that the El Paso gunman drove nine hours from his home to El Paso, which is eighty per cent Latino. It appears to be racially motivated at this point.

[Sylar]

Like Hibrandenburg, I’m at the point of not caring. Until they change things, they’re asking for this to continue.

I liked Beto O’Rourke calling Trump out for his role in this: he’s demonised Mexican migrants for political gain with some horrific rhetoric.

[Colr]

Like Hibrandenburg, I’m at the point of not caring. Until they change things, they’re asking for this to continue.

I liked Beto O’Rourke calling Trump out for his role in this: he’s demonised Mexican migrants for political gain with some horrific rhetoric.

I doubt Trump cares much about dead Mexicans.

[Sylar]

I doubt Trump cares much about dead Mexicans.

Oh, I don’t disagree. But he will care about some scrawny little Democrat calling him a racist and accusing him of complicity.

[Colr]

Oh, I don’t disagree. But he will care about some scrawny little Democrat calling him a racist and accusing him of complicity.

He cares deeply that the Mayor of London has brown skin.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

I doubt Trump cares much about dead Mexicans.

I think that he didn't like the fact that El Paso is one of the safest cities in the US.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190804/a4f1f8a594893df79aaf327d851ea7b6.jpg


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[Pretty Boy]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190804/a4f1f8a594893df79aaf327d851ea7b6.jpg


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Video games, mental illness, race and ethnicity, God, victims not being prepared to defend themselves etc etc

Some Americans want to blame anything but their precious, precious guns for these things happening.

[Bristolhibby]

Completely agree with making it more difficult to own guns over here. I will correct you about the automatic weapons part. Very rarely is an automatic weapon used in these events. A fully automatic weapon is extremely hard to get hold off and requires tax stamps and costs about $15,000. It’s usually always a semiautomatic rifle that’s used.

Here’s how messed up the laws are where I live. So if I want to buy a handgun, I go to the police station and get a purchasers permit. They do a background check and issue it if I qualify. Now I have a concealed carry license, so that step is bypassed as I’ve gone through all the background checks and have to renew every 5 years.

So if I buy say a revolver or semiautomatic handgun with my license, I have to fill out paperwork at the gun store, or with and individual who is selling and then mail it to the sheriffs department who register the firearm to me. Here’s the crazy part. Rifles don’t fall under these conditions. I could got to Armslist (Gumtree for guns) find someone selling an AK47 or AR15 semiautomatic rifle and buy it with no background check, paperwork or registration. Give the seller $500 and walk off with a semiautomatic rifle..... LEGALLY. Boggles my mind.

Crazy. I’ve also read that some of the mass shootings use a stick that turns a semi automatic weapon into a fully automatic gun. And that the stock is not illegal.

J

[Ryan91]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190804/a4f1f8a594893df79aaf327d851ea7b6.jpg


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Sadly video games and gamers have always been an easy target, and we always will be.

[DetroitHibs]

Crazy. I’ve also read that some of the mass shootings use a stick that turns a semi automatic weapon into a fully automatic gun. And that the stock is not illegal.

J

They recently made the bump stock illegal in all States. A person with a semiautomatic rifle could empty a 30 round magazine in about 3 seconds using his finger to fire the trigger. With a bump stock it would take the person about 2 seconds. Really makes no difference, you actually get less accuracy with the bump stock.

[21.05.2016]

They recently made the bump stock illegal in all States. A person with a semiautomatic rifle could empty a 30 round magazine in about 3 seconds using his finger to fire the trigger. With a bump stock it would take the person about 2 seconds. Really makes no difference, you actually get less accuracy with the bump stock.

Absolutely frightening!

[21.05.2016]

Not only do they sell guns but this is how they market them.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190804/7dc9fabcddf747dff1103569fe9b9c79.jpg



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Quite incredible. Back to school list:

Pencil case - check
Lunch box - Check
P.E kit - check
Rifle - Check



Until enough Americans care more about protecting innocent human lives than their precious constitution these horrific acts of violence will sadly continue to happen time after time. What exactly more has to happen for some Americans to actually wake up and realize how dangerous these things are. We've seen children as young as 4/5 being shot and murdered in their classrooms, we've seen innocent people in night clubs/cinemas/shopping malls gunned down in broad day light simply going about their every day lives. Its madness.

But of course the real solution to all this is of course arm even more people with guns :rolleyes: I mean you really couldn't make it up.

[DetroitHibs]

There is no overnight solution to the problem. The shooting last week in California has some of the strictest gun laws. The person illegally bought the weapon out of state, along with the ammo, then committed a federal crime crossing state lines with an illegal weapon. California just put a law that states citizens have to go through a background search just to buy ammo. Frankly these laws are a waste of time and money as they criminals don’t adhere to them and never will.

Guns play a huge role in these mass shootings, but it’s not the only factor. I’ve taken a keen interest in these events as I have a family here and quite frankly is terrifying. So these are my thoughts. Something has changed in society within the past 30-40 years in America. There’s always been gun violence, but not the level of senseless mass shootings we see today. The gun laws today compared to back then have gotten stricter, back then fully automatic weapons were readily available.

Let’s start with the guns. I think all rifles should go through the same background checks and registration as buying a pistol nationwide. I also think medication plays a huge part. If a person is on antidepressants or the likes, they shouldn’t be able to buy a gun.

Which brings me to my second point. Prescription drugs. I think they are also playing a part in these mass shootings. Growing up I didn’t know kids with ADHD and all that crap. It was called hyperactive. So many kids in the US are put on prescription drugs like Adderall and Dexedrine. Studies have shown a link to these drugs and mass shootings. What you won’t here is this being reported in the MSM though. The big pharma trillion dollar printing press won’t have that.

My next point is the internet and social media. I think since the invention of the internet we have lost touch with humanity. Kids growing up all text, snap chat and are consumed with there phone. Back in the day we met each other, talked on the phone, even wrote letters. There was much more human interaction with each other. We are losing that more and more, which could be affecting people’s value of life. Also the internet has given a platform for like minded sick individuals to share ideas and hide behind a keyboard, something that wasn’t available back in the day. These individuals feed off each other.

Then we have video game violence. I don’t tie much in to this, but can definitely play a part. You have kids playing almost real life shoot em ups with head sets talking to each other. It’s pretty darn close to the real thing. I think once tied In to everything else, it may play a part combined with prescription drugs and loss of reality.

Gun violence has gone down since the 80 and 90s, but mass shootings have risen. I think a lot of things need to change, not just the guns. Humanity as a whole has to start taking responsibility. How many kids do you see being baby sat with an iPad or in front of the TV. Wasn’t the case when I was a youngsters. If I wasn’t out playing with friends all summer holiday, my parents were interacting with me.

[Sir David Gray]

There is no overnight solution to the problem. The shooting last week in California has some of the strictest gun laws. The person illegally bought the weapon out of state, along with the ammo, then committed a federal crime crossing state lines with an illegal weapon. California just put a law that states citizens have to go through a background search just to buy ammo. Frankly these laws are a waste of time and money as they criminals don’t adhere to them and never will.

Guns play a huge role in these mass shootings, but it’s not the only factor. I’ve taken a keen interest in these events as I have a family here and quite frankly is terrifying. So these are my thoughts. Something has changed in society within the past 30-40 years in America. There’s always been gun violence, but not the level of senseless mass shootings we see today. The gun laws today compared to back then have gotten stricter, back then fully automatic weapons were readily available.

Let’s start with the guns. I think all rifles should go through the same background checks and registration as buying a pistol nationwide. I also think medication plays a huge part. If a person is on antidepressants or the likes, they shouldn’t be able to buy a gun.

Which brings me to my second point. Prescription drugs. I think they are also playing a part in these mass shootings. Growing up I didn’t know kids with ADHD and all that crap. It was called hyperactive. So many kids in the US are put on prescription drugs like Adderall and Dexedrine. Studies have shown a link to these drugs and mass shootings. What you won’t here is this being reported in the MSM though. The big pharma trillion dollar printing press won’t have that.

My next point is the internet and social media. I think since the invention of the internet we have lost touch with humanity. Kids growing up all text, snap chat and are consumed with there phone. Back in the day we met each other, talked on the phone, even wrote letters. There was much more human interaction with each other. We are losing that more and more, which could be affecting people’s value of life. Also the internet has given a platform for like minded sick individuals to share ideas and hide behind a keyboard, something that wasn’t available back in the day. These individuals feed off each other.

Then we have video game violence. I don’t tie much in to this, but can definitely play a part. You have kids playing almost real life shoot em ups with head sets talking to each other. It’s pretty darn close to the real thing. I think once tied In to everything else, it may play a part combined with prescription drugs and loss of reality.

Gun violence has gone down since the 80 and 90s, but mass shootings have risen. I think a lot of things need to change, not just the guns. Humanity as a whole has to start taking responsibility. How many kids do you see being baby sat with an iPad or in front of the TV. Wasn’t the case when I was a youngsters. If I wasn’t out playing with friends all summer holiday, my parents were interacting with me.

Unless you're going to introduce border checks within each state, having stricter gun laws in California (or any other state) is pointless when a firearm can easily be brought in from another state where the laws are more relaxed.

The only place that may work is Alaska as you need to pass through Canada (which incidentally has far lower gun related death rates than the USA) to get there.

Legislation could be proposed today to put a stop to guns being so freely available. The truth is they are not interested in doing this, in fact many of them actually go the other way by saying the more shootings there are, the bigger the argument there is for actually having more guns!

The issues you outline about modern day society aren't unique to the American population. Video game violence, prescription drugs and children being brought up on a diet of Snapchat and iPads can be seen in almost every developed nation in the world. There's only one of those nations that has had over 250 mass shootings since the start of 2019 though.

Dunblane was a watershed moment for us in the UK and since then laws have been tightened up and as a result we have had no mass shootings in over 23 years.

Whilst there's clearly more guns in the USA than there ever were in the UK, the Americans could introduce similar legislation but they won't.

Meanwhile there will be many more El Pasos and Daytons happening over the coming days, weeks and months and the people in power will continue to do nothing except to offer their thoughts and prayers. All so they can uphold the Second Amendment from over 200 years ago.

[DetroitHibs]

Unless you're going to introduce border checks within each state, having stricter gun laws in California (or any other state) is pointless when a firearm can easily be brought in from another state where the laws are more relaxed.

The only place that may work is Alaska as you need to pass through Canada (which incidentally has far lower gun related death rates than the USA) to get there.

Legislation could be proposed today to put a stop to guns being so freely available. The truth is they are not interested in doing this, in fact many of them actually go the other way by saying the more shootings there are, the bigger the argument there is for actually having more guns!

The issues you outline about modern day society aren't unique to the American population. Video game violence, prescription drugs and children being brought up on a diet of Snapchat and iPads can be seen in almost every developed nation in the world. There's only one of those nations that has had over 250 mass shootings since the start of 2019 though.

Dunblane was a watershed moment for us in the UK and since then laws have been tightened up and as a result we have had no mass shootings in over 23 years.

Whilst there's clearly more guns in the USA than there ever were in the UK, the Americans could introduce similar legislation but they won't.

Meanwhile there will be many more El Pasos and Daytons happening over the coming days, weeks and months and the people in power will continue to do nothing except to offer their thoughts and prayers. All so they can uphold the Second Amendment from over 200 years ago.

I think it goes much deeper than just the guns. Are kids in the UK and rest of Europe on the same diet of prescription pills as American kids? I’m not saying mass shootings didn’t happen 30-40 years ago, but I don’t recall it being on this level. What has changed that makes people want to kill 100s of innocent people in shopping malls, movie theaters or anywhere else with crowds of people. My question is what changes in society that has triggered this. It’s only going to get worse and worse if we don’t get to the real root of the problem.

I also disagree about Americans introducing a similar legislation like the UK or Australia. It wouldn’t fly, your not getting the 400 million guns that are out there in the hands of citizens. Won’t ever happen, there would be a civil war before people gave up there guns.

[Sylar]

I think it goes much deeper than just the guns. Are kids in the UK and rest of Europe on the same diet of prescription pills as American kids? I’m not saying mass shootings didn’t happen 30-40 years ago, but I don’t recall it being on this level. What has changed that makes people want to kill 100s of innocent people in shopping malls, movie theaters or anywhere else with crowds of people. My question is what changes in society that has triggered this. It’s only going to get worse and worse if we don’t get to the real root of the problem.

I also disagree about Americans introducing a similar legislation like the UK or Australia. It wouldn’t fly, your not getting the 400 million guns that are out there in the hands of citizens. Won’t ever happen, there would be a civil war before people gave up there guns.

Mental health sufferers commit around 5% of these crimes, statistically speaking. The problem is political will and access, and so long as the NRA continue to be such a powerful lobby with financial clout, no politician is going to stand up to them.

I agree with you on one thing: there is no overnight solution because those that own guns will not willingly surrender them.

[Sir David Gray]

I think it goes much deeper than just the guns. Are kids in the UK and rest of Europe on the same diet of prescription pills as American kids? I’m not saying mass shootings didn’t happen 30-40 years ago, but I don’t recall it being on this level. What has changed that makes people want to kill 100s of innocent people in shopping malls, movie theaters or anywhere else with crowds of people. My question is what changes in society that has triggered this. It’s only going to get worse and worse if we don’t get to the real root of the problem.

I also disagree about Americans introducing a similar legislation like the UK or Australia. It wouldn’t fly, your not getting the 400 million guns that are out there in the hands of citizens. Won’t ever happen, there would be a civil war before people gave up there guns.

As I said before the guns are useless without the ammunition to put inside them.

If legislation was tightened up and ammunition wasn't so freely available, the however many firearms that are currently in circulation in the USA would eventually be redundant. Yes it may take some time for that to happen but you have to start somewhere.

I understand that there's no easy fix to this problem and that there was never the same attachment to guns in the UK and Australia, as there is in the USA but you cannot have a situation where over 30,000 people die each year (including suicides) due to being shot by a firearm.

It's a national crisis and somebody somewhere has to say enough is enough.

[Ozyhibby]

I think it goes much deeper than just the guns. Are kids in the UK and rest of Europe on the same diet of prescription pills as American kids? I’m not saying mass shootings didn’t happen 30-40 years ago, but I don’t recall it being on this level. What has changed that makes people want to kill 100s of innocent people in shopping malls, movie theaters or anywhere else with crowds of people. My question is what changes in society that has triggered this. It’s only going to get worse and worse if we don’t get to the real root of the problem.

I also disagree about Americans introducing a similar legislation like the UK or Australia. It wouldn’t fly, your not getting the 400 million guns that are out there in the hands of citizens. Won’t ever happen, there would be a civil war before people gave up there guns.

Once you stop selling ammo though a lot of those guns quickly become useless. And once you make it illegal to own a fire arm then a lot of those guns get handed back.
Every other western country has mental health problems, racism, video games etc. The only difference is the guns.
The real root of the problem is the guns! I’ll say it again, the root of the problem is the easy access to guns!
And btw, the easy access to guns make it likely America is heading toward civil war anyway. It is becoming massively polarised to the point where they refer to the ‘culture war’. When they start using term like that it won’t be long before it breaks out into a full blown war.


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[Ozyhibby]

Once you stop selling ammo though a lot of those guns quickly become useless. And once you make it illegal to own a fire arm then a lot of those guns get handed back. And also the majority of these mass shootings are by young men. Make guns illegal and they will then have to go to the black market for their guns.
Every other western country has mental health problems, racism, video games etc. The only difference is the guns.
The real root of the problem is the guns! I’ll say it again, the root of the problem is the easy access to guns!
And btw, the easy access to guns make it likely America is heading toward civil war anyway. It is becoming massively polarised to the point where they refer to the ‘culture war’. When they start using term like that it won’t be long before it breaks out into a full blown war.


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[DetroitHibs]

Restricting ammunition wouldn’t solve anything I don’t think. A lot of gun owners buy there primers and powder and reload there own bullets. California has already implemented ammo restrictions. It did nothing to stop that active shooter at the festival last week.

I want this to stop as much as the next person, I think a study on the individuals doing it would help more that anything. Try and find a connection to these mass shootings. Are drugs a connection, internet history, family. Another question. Why is it usually white males. What is different in there DNA than black or Hispanics. These races are generally poorer than whites people. Can they afford the prescription drugs and violent video games on the same level as white kids? All things that could be looked in to.

[Ozyhibby]

Restricting ammunition wouldn’t solve anything I don’t think. A lot of gun owners buy there primers and powder and reload there own bullets. California has already implemented ammo restrictions. It did nothing to stop that active shooter at the festival last week.

I want this to stop as much as the next person, I think a study on the individuals doing it would help more that anything. Try and find a connection to these mass shootings. Are drugs a connection, internet history, family. Another question. Why is it usually white males. What is different in there DNA than black or Hispanics. These races are generally poorer than whites people. Can they afford the prescription drugs and violent video games on the same level as white kids? All things that could be looked in to.

Just say you like guns and don’t want them made illegal. I can respect that.
All the other things you mention, we have here in the UK. The only difference is access to guns.
If you don’t want them made illegal, that’s fair enough. It’s a heavy price for a society to pay but it’s a choice for America.


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[DetroitHibs]

Just say you like guns and don’t want them made illegal. I can respect that.
All the other things you mention, we have here in the UK. The only difference is access to guns.
If you don’t want them made illegal, that’s fair enough. It’s a heavy price for a society to pay but it’s a choice for America.


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It’s not that I like them, or don’t want them made illegal. In the UK I was 100% behind the banning of all guns. Not many people had layed eyes on a gun, never mind fired one. In the US I’d be against banning guns. I know that gun violence wouldn’t stop and could possibly get worse.

Yes the US and UK have the same things, but are two completely different cultures. The US was founded on guns and is heavily ingrained in to its culture. That’s not changing anytime soon.

Living in the UK you don’t have to worry about gun violence or armed thieves kicking in your door and robbing you. That’s not so uncommon over here. Having protection and giving yourself half a chance is worth it for the well being of my family. It’s a different culture over here. They seem to have less value for life. You chose to ignore why these shootings are happening. What has changed, certainly not guns.

[lapsedhibee]

Living in the UK you don’t have to worry about gun violence or armed thieves kicking in your door and robbing you. That’s not so uncommon over here. Having protection and giving yourself half a chance is worth it for the well being of my family. It’s a different culture over here. They seem to have less value for life. You chose to ignore why these shootings are happening. What has changed, certainly not guns.
Think that's the key, isn't it? Guns valued more highly than life?

[Ozyhibby]

It’s not that I like them, or don’t want them made illegal. In the UK I was 100% behind the banning of all guns. Not many people had layed eyes on a gun, never mind fired one. In the US I’d be against banning guns. I know that gun violence wouldn’t stop and could possibly get worse.

Yes the US and UK have the same things, but are two completely different cultures. The US was founded on guns and is heavily ingrained in to its culture. That’s not changing anytime soon.

Living in the UK you don’t have to worry about gun violence or armed thieves kicking in your door and robbing you. That’s not so uncommon over here. Having protection and giving yourself half a chance is worth it for the well being of my family. It’s a different culture over here. They seem to have less value for life. You chose to ignore why these shootings are happening. What has changed, certainly not guns.

Where do you keep your gun at night to protect you from armed robbers?


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[DetroitHibs]

Think that's the key, isn't it? Guns valued more highly than life?

Why is nobody interested in what makes these monsters tick? What has changed that has made these mass shootings much more prevalent than say 30-40 years ago. I only see it getting worse.

[DetroitHibs]

Where do you keep your gun at night to protect you from armed robbers?


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Its on the nightstand in a fingerprint reader safe.

[lapsedhibee]

Why is nobody interested in what makes these monsters tick? What has changed that has made these mass shootings much more prevalent than say 30-40 years ago. I only see it getting worse.

The ticking of monsters is interesting, but epidemiology is sometimes a quicker route to solving (or at least ameliorating) problems than aetiology (etiology to you :na na:). And in this case the epidemiology is pointing to the ownership and availability of guns. It's just harder for someone with mental health issues in Scotland to go on a killing spree. In supermarkets here you have to be checked out with not just knives but any metal cutlery. Mass killing is so much trickier with a spoon than a machine gun.

[Ozyhibby]

Its on the nightstand in a fingerprint reader safe.

Do you never think that maybe better locks on the doors and windows might be the go? I know if someone tried to break into my house it would take them the best part of 20 mins.


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[Sylar]

Its on the nightstand in a fingerprint reader safe.

I think you're getting a little bit of a raw deal here and have made some decent points about cultural differences and the challenges with immediate steps to stop the problem. I disagree with your assessment of the role of things such as video games and prescription medication (for reasons other posters have pointed out), but you've made some valid observations (particularly as someone who lives in the US). I spend half of my year living and working out in California, and that cultural change to the UK is remarkable.

Why have these incidents gotten worse in the past 30 or so years? I don't necessarily think that's an easy question to answer, but exposure is a massive part of it. An increase in the infamy that many of these shooters get from carrying out their attacks, whether they live to see that or not. Think of the major instances of mass shootings in the USA in the past few decades - mostly, you'll readily recall the name of the shooters: from Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold to Cho Seung-Hui, from James Holmes to Dylan Roofe...these kids are "celebrities" of a sort (in the most perverse definition of celebrity imaginable).

I'd also imagine that a changing sociocultural and socioeconomic landscape are to blame. Many of these shooters have nothing in their lives, and no prospects. A lot of them also appear to have grievances, be that against race, religion, sexuality or personal (fired from work, separated from a partner etc). Combine that with a pretty horrible online culture and you have the potential for an almost radicalisation of their own delusions, opinions or world-views. But again, we have that here in the UK. People are exposed to changes in their lives and surroundings, people spiral into dark places, people go online looking for validation and more often than not can find a platform to support it - how do these circumstances lead to mass shootings? The common denominator in the equation is access to the means - we can look into the psychology and the drivers for another few centuries, but the only way to stop mass killings like this is to remove the tools. Because so long as the tools remain, there's always scope for someone who slips through the checks, or passed the checks at a better time in their lives from deciding they've had enough and they're going to go out with a bang so the world remembers them.

It used to be Marilyn Manson that was blamed, because heavy metal and goths were scary (I actually noted someone in a recent shooting, not these two, tried to link the shooters love for Slipknot as a possible cause). And video games, because they were increasingly violent and increasingly realistic. And violent movies...etc etc etc. But these are globally available media that don't translate to acts of mass violence anywhere else (even in countries where guns can be legally acquired). There is something unique about American culture that places some God-like status on these guns (I often think of the NRA and gun advocates as being utterly zealous in their outlook - it's akin to religious fundamentalism when you hear them speak about their guns).

I don't have a ****ing clue what the answer is, but you can bet there'll be more of these before the year (month, week?) are up.

[Smartie]

The experience of the UK since Dunblane would suggest that tighter gun controls can be successful.

Is it Switzerland that has laws similar to the USA yet you never hear of the same problems?

I am very much against guns and violence in general, but I don't think it is as simple as us outsiders looking in would like to believe.

DetroitHibs is making some interesting points and they come from the point of view of someone who lives there and has to face the dangers that exist there.

Fear is the biggest factor. If there was a way of helping people overcoming the fear of the vulnerability they might experience as the "good guys" who own guns and feel entitled to do so then there might be a decrease in the number of guns that are able to fall into the hands of bad guys.

Having family in Texas I wish this problem was as easily solved as some seem to think it is but it really is not.

[Ozyhibby]

There were 13 mass shootings in Oz in the 18 years before they brought in gun control following port Arthur and zero in the 22 years afterwards.
Gun control works. All the other chat about culture etc is just NRA propaganda being regurgitated.


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[Sir David Gray]

Obviously if it's something that's so ingrained in the culture over there then it's very much an American issue for the American people to deal with.

Maybe it's something that outside broadcasters shouldn't be reporting on as much anymore. If the American people don't care enough to do anything about gun control then why should people who don't even live there? If 8,500 people losing their lives in just over 7 months isn't enough for the American people to want to do something about this problem then that's up to them.

It's an American issue for the American people to deal with.

[Mon Dieu4]

I'd also imagine that a changing sociocultural and socioeconomic landscape are to blame. Many of these shooters have nothing in their lives, and no prospects. A lot of them also appear to have grievances, be that against race, religion, sexuality or personal (fired from work, separated from a partner etc). Combine that with a pretty horrible online culture and you have the potential for an almost radicalisation of their own delusions, opinions or world-views. But again, we have that here in the UK. People are exposed to changes in their lives and surroundings, people spiral into dark places, people go online looking for validation and more often than not can find a platform to support it - how do these circumstances lead to mass shootings? The common denominator in the equation is access to the means - we can look into the psychology and the drivers for another few centuries, but the only way to stop mass killings like this is to remove the tools. Because so long as the tools remain, there's always scope for someone who slips through the checks, or passed the checks at a better time in their lives from deciding they've had enough and they're going to go out with a bang so the world remembers them.

This pretty much sums up my views on the issue, I agree that Detroit is also getting a raw deal, there will never ever be a blanket ban in the US, you cant compare it to other countries that have banned them as no other country has ever had it so enshrined in their constitution that you have the right to bear arms, I genuinely believe if they came out and banned them that there would be some sort of civil war.

I was 12 when I first went to the US and I can remember being in Supermarket with my folks and thinking how mental it was that you can go in for milk and wander out with a shotgun

I can't see there ever being an end to this, common sense would say just get rid of guns, sadly the fact that there is too money to be made means that things like this are seen as collateral damage by the people who could make a difference

with all the divisive things going on over there I can actually see it getting worse and worse with hehaw happening, it's like the brexit vote half of the country are going to be raging either way but everyone has access to guns

[Andy Bee]

I'm with the majority here and whilst I'd agree with DH that the vast majority of USA citizens who carry guns are responsible, law abiding people, a system which allows some angry 19yr old kid to legally purchase an AK47 with ammo is absolutely absurd. I have a teenage boy and the thought of him being able to buy something like that, it's a Russian army assault weapon FFS, it really doesn't bare thinking about. I don't actually think most American people realise how crazy that is, I think they've become so desensitized to owning guns and having them around that they're now unable to see it. There's plenty angry people around, a very small minority want to inflict pain on the world and in most cases their only option is a blade or similar but they wont do that because they're cowards but in the USA they can nip down the High St and have an AK47 with ammo within a short time limit, that's just mental and there isn't any kind of argument that'll change my mind on that one.

When you actually start thinking about the implications of this it really beggars belief. Picture the scenario, my boy and his mates are heading off to a nightclub in town, they finish what's left of my beer in the fridge as the lil bassas usually do then start to gather their gear before heading out, jacket, shoes on, spray of aftershave, quick check of the hair and then ten of them check to see if they've remembered to load the Desert Eagles, lethal weapon style, nah the world has gone mad if anyone thinks that's arguable.

You could try and get a scientific understanding of why people do it but you wont be able to stop it because I'd imagine it's something that happens in their lives that flips a switch to cause carnage, they're obviously not born mass murderers so pinpointing exactly when someone is going to flip would be impossible, the only way of stopping it is taking away their tools of choice i.e. guns.

[Hibs Class]

It’s not that I like them, or don’t want them made illegal. In the UK I was 100% behind the banning of all guns. Not many people had layed eyes on a gun, never mind fired one. In the US I’d be against banning guns. I know that gun violence wouldn’t stop and could possibly get worse.

Yes the US and UK have the same things, but are two completely different cultures. The US was founded on guns and is heavily ingrained in to its culture. That’s not changing anytime soon.

Living in the UK you don’t have to worry about gun violence or armed thieves kicking in your door and robbing you. That’s not so uncommon over here. Having protection and giving yourself half a chance is worth it for the well being of my family. It’s a different culture over here. They seem to have less value for life. You chose to ignore why these shootings are happening. What has changed, certainly not guns.

Out of interest, what's the rationale for the bit in bold?

[Ozyhibby]

Out of interest, what's the rationale for the bit in bold?

Well if that bad guys who already have guns know that the good guys can’t get guns then it’s open season. It’s only because the good guys have guns that it’s not worse. Or something like that.


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[DetroitHibs]

Out of interest, what's the rationale for the bit in bold?

I think the blanket ban would only take the guns out of the law abiding citizens hands and the criminals, gangs and crazy’s would still be able to get whatever they needed. I think armed home invasions would rise and whoever wanted a gun for bad intentions wouldn’t have a problem finding one.

[Ozyhibby]

I think the blanket ban would only take the guns out of the law abiding citizens hands and the criminals, gangs and crazy’s would still be able to get whatever they needed. I think armed home invasions would rise and whoever wanted a gun for bad intentions wouldn’t have a problem finding one.

That was not the experience in Australia. The black market price for firearms went through the roof making it harder for criminals to get guns.


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[Sir David Gray]

I think the blanket ban would only take the guns out of the law abiding citizens hands and the criminals, gangs and crazy’s would still be able to get whatever they needed. I think armed home invasions would rise and whoever wanted a gun for bad intentions wouldn’t have a problem finding one.

I would suggest that if it was made illegal to go down to the local supermarket for your weekly shop and come out with a firearm, there wouldn't be over 250 mass shootings in just over 7 months.

[Ozyhibby]

I would suggest that if it was made illegal to go down to the local supermarket for your weekly shop and come out with a firearm, there wouldn't be over 250 mass shootings in just over 7 months.

And how many home invasions are stopped by the homeowner shooting the invader? Bet it’s a tiny percentage.


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[DetroitHibs]

That was not the experience in Australia. The black market price for firearms went through the roof making it harder for criminals to get guns.


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From a quick Google search, Australia confiscated 650,000 guns in the ban. America currently has about 400 million legally owned guns and god knows how many illegally owned guns. The genie is out the bottle your not getting those guns back. Even if you got 3/4 of them, that’s still 100 million guns out there.

People that arent familair with guns and America don’t know how easy it is for someone to get a gun leagally or illegally. Take Chicago. Extremely strict gun laws and over just this weekend there were 40 shot 3 killed. 99% of that was gang related with illegal guns. I can buy a lower receiver for $60 and build an AR15 in about a day. Total cost about $400.

I’m not making an argument why guns shouldn’t be banned. My argument is that it wouldn’t make a bit of difference. The crimes being committed aren’t from the law abiding citizens that register and buy guns through the proper channels. If someone is hell bent on causing chaos and carnage, your not going to stop that.

[CloudSquall]

I see the website that "inspired" the El Paso shooter along with the shooter in the Christchurch shooting, 8chan, has been shutdown, or at least blocked.

I only knew vaguely of 4chan which I believe to be one of those dark right wing sites, 8chan appears to have been set up because the creater was peeved off at censorship on 4chan, I can only imagine how dark and extreme it was on there.

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-49233767


Side tracking from the guns issue but it's quite scary how easy it is to go down the rabbit hole on the internet, personal example I was watching on Youtube videos of Ben Shapiro and Steven Crowder (right wing conservative commentator & comedian) out of curiousity of their view points on guns etc, next thing that pops up in the suggested next videos is some video from "RedIce TV" about the conservation of the white race.


The ease at which someone can end up on a site like 8chan with warped views of the world combined with the ease of picking up a gun is a cocktail for disaster.

[Mon Dieu4]

I see the website that "inspired" the El Paso shooter along with the shooter in the Christchurch shooting, 8chan, has been shutdown, or at least blocked.

I only knew vaguely of 4chan which I believe to be one of those dark right wing sites, 8chan appears to have been set up because the creater was peeved off at cencorship on 4chan, I can only imagine how dark and extreme it was on there.

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-49233767


Side tracking from the guns issue but it's quite scary how easy it is to go down the rabbit hole on the internet, personal example I was watching on Youtube videos of Ben Shapiro and Steven Crowder (right wing conservative commentator & comedian) out of curiousity of their view points on guns etc, next thing that pops up in the suggested next videos is some video from "RedIce TV" about the conservation of the white race.


The ease at which someone can end up on a sight like 8chan with warped views of the world combined with the ease of picking up a gun is a cocktail for disaster.

I had never heard of 8chan til this morning and thought I'd have a look to see what it was all about, I only managed to view a couple of threads before an error message came up, I'm pretty unshockable but some of the stuff I read in the space of 2 minutes were the most mental things I've ever seen on the internet and that's saying something

Made the Huns look like nursery school kids

[AZhibee]

Unfortunately the gun control discussion only obscures the acts of the El Paso shooter. That discussion always breaks down into a bunch of what ifs and yeah buts. There are not good solutions, we are inundated with guns.

However a more alarming issue is that the president encouraged people to attack immigrants and a white kid from North Texas traveled a considerable distance specifically to attack people of color in a heavily Hispanic city on the border.

From their perspective, gun control is a better discussion to have.

[RyeSloan]

From a quick Google search, Australia confiscated 650,000 guns in the ban. America currently has about 400 million legally owned guns and god knows how many illegally owned guns. The genie is out the bottle your not getting those guns back. Even if you got 3/4 of them, that’s still 100 million guns out there.

People that arent familair with guns and America don’t know how easy it is for someone to get a gun leagally or illegally. Take Chicago. Extremely strict gun laws and over just this weekend there were 40 shot 3 killed. 99% of that was gang related with illegal guns. I can buy a lower receiver for $60 and build an AR15 in about a day. Total cost about $400.

I’m not making an argument why guns shouldn’t be banned. My argument is that it wouldn’t make a bit of difference. The crimes being committed aren’t from the law abiding citizens that register and buy guns through the proper channels. If someone is hell bent on causing chaos and carnage, your not going to stop that.

To some degree I concur re the genie out of the bottle comment. It would seem an impossible task.

That said even the longest journey starts with the first step but it seems there is simply no appetite for that journey to even begin.

Which leaves the situation as one that can only deteriorate and become ever more entrenched. A metaphorical shrug of the shoulders if you want. That’s surely not the answer either...

[Ozyhibby]

From a quick Google search, Australia confiscated 650,000 guns in the ban. America currently has about 400 million legally owned guns and god knows how many illegally owned guns. The genie is out the bottle your not getting those guns back. Even if you got 3/4 of them, that’s still 100 million guns out there.

People that arent familair with guns and America don’t know how easy it is for someone to get a gun leagally or illegally. Take Chicago. Extremely strict gun laws and over just this weekend there were 40 shot 3 killed. 99% of that was gang related with illegal guns. I can buy a lower receiver for $60 and build an AR15 in about a day. Total cost about $400.

I’m not making an argument why guns shouldn’t be banned. My argument is that it wouldn’t make a bit of difference. The crimes being committed aren’t from the law abiding citizens that register and buy guns through the proper channels. If someone is hell bent on causing chaos and carnage, your not going to stop that.

All the guns used in the mass shootings over the weekend were purchased legally.
If America wants they can stop this madness but they don’t want to.


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[DetroitHibs]

All the guns used in the mass shootings over the weekend were purchased legally.
If America wants they can stop this madness but they don’t want to.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I disagree, America can’t stop this madness. You can shout from the roof tops all day long about banning guns, ain’t gonna happen. I’ve explained why it can’t or won’t happen. You can choose to ignore this if you want. I think it’s naive to think that these guns bought legally or illegally would have changed anything. The Ohio shooter was suspended at school for having a hit list and rape list. If those aren’t red flags, what the hell is.

This country isn’t like any other country in the world. It’s made up from 50 different states that all have different laws. The country is split down the middle Republican and Democratic. The country is also split on guns with about 60% in favor of leaving gun laws as is. This isn’t the U.K. where they formed a nice orderly line and handed them all in. Gorveners and States would refuse to comply, citizens would rise up and would go to war to defend the 2nd amendment. You might think that’s far fetched, believe me it isn’t.

[Bristolhibby]

OK. But how about banning semi automatic long arms.

You can still own pistols, rifles and shot guns. Just not the military like guns with 100 round clips.

That’s a start, no?

That way the 2nd Amendment is preserved (BTW intended to defend the need to have single shot muskets), while at the same time take out the type of guns that enables multiple people to be killed and wounded in minutes. At least give the future victims a sporting chance of surviving.

J

[Fife-Hibee]

If only all of them victims (including the children) had guns on them, they would have been safe.


The American mentality.

[DetroitHibs]

I see the website that "inspired" the El Paso shooter along with the shooter in the Christchurch shooting, 8chan, has been shutdown, or at least blocked.

I only knew vaguely of 4chan which I believe to be one of those dark right wing sites, 8chan appears to have been set up because the creater was peeved off at censorship on 4chan, I can only imagine how dark and extreme it was on there.

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-49233767


Side tracking from the guns issue but it's quite scary how easy it is to go down the rabbit hole on the internet, personal example I was watching on Youtube videos of Ben Shapiro and Steven Crowder (right wing conservative commentator & comedian) out of curiousity of their view points on guns etc, next thing that pops up in the suggested next videos is some video from "RedIce TV" about the conservation of the white race.


The ease at which someone can end up on a site like 8chan with warped views of the world combined with the ease of picking up a gun is a cocktail for disaster.

On the other side of the spectrum from the weekend was the Ohio shooter. A self proclaimed leftist who hated Trump. It used to be where left and right ideology’s could debate without shouting each other down and it being reduced to violence. There’s been such an upswing in sheer hate and absolutely no reasoning with each other.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/aug/4/connor-betts-ohio-gunman-was-elizabeth-warren-supp/

[Sir David Gray]

I disagree, America can’t stop this madness. You can shout from the roof tops all day long about banning guns, ain’t gonna happen. I’ve explained why it can’t or won’t happen. You can choose to ignore this if you want. I think it’s naive to think that these guns bought legally or illegally would have changed anything. The Ohio shooter was suspended at school for having a hit list and rape list. If those aren’t red flags, what the hell is.

This country isn’t like any other country in the world. It’s made up from 50 different states that all have different laws. The country is split down the middle Republican and Democratic. The country is also split on guns with about 60% in favor of leaving gun laws as is. This isn’t the U.K. where they formed a nice orderly line and handed them all in. Gorveners and States would refuse to comply, citizens would rise up and would go to war to defend the 2nd amendment. You might think that’s far fetched, believe me it isn’t.

I get what you're saying about how difficult it would be to get everyone to comply with an order to abandon their firearms however surely you understand that if there was a time when the majority of firearms were made illegal, it would make it a lot harder for these individuals to get their hands on one, therefore reducing the number of shootings.

I don't think it's naive at all to believe that guns having to be bought illegally would improve on the status quo. The fact that the guy responsible for the Dayton shooting allegedly had a hit/rape list is of course a red flag to some pretty disturbing behaviour but it does not mean that he would have been able to get his hands on a firearm if it had been illegal for him to do so.

That is the part that I'm struggling to understand about your position. I don't doubt that restricting the use of firearms and repealing the Second Amendment would be incredibly difficult but I do have a problem with the suggestion that to restrict the use of firearms would make no difference to the number of shootings occurring across the country.

[calumhibee1]

Genuine question - when was the last mass shooting that was stopped by a good guy with a gun? It may be that there’s been plenty and they’re just not reported as much but they never seem to be the ones reported in the UK. They either end with suicide or the police killing the murderer.

[calumhibee1]

To some degree I concur re the genie out of the bottle comment. It would seem an impossible task.

That said even the longest journey starts with the first step but it seems there is simply no appetite for that journey to even begin.

Which leaves the situation as one that can only deteriorate and become ever more entrenched. A metaphorical shrug of the shoulders if you want. That’s surely not the answer either...

Agree with all of this. There’s no doubt it’s a massive task to improve things. But the attitude that there’s too many guns out there now, we can’t fix it so we’ll just leave it as it is and send our thoughts and prayers just doesn’t seem right.

They should be banned. Things will improve, whether it’s instantly or a more long term thing.

[Ozyhibby]

Genuine question - when was the last mass shooting that was stopped by a good guy with a gun? It may be that there’s been plenty and they’re just not reported as much but they never seem to be the ones reported in the UK. They either end with suicide or the police killing the murderer.

The shooting in Ohio was stopped by a good guy with a gun in about 30 seconds. It was pretty impressive response from nearby police. Unfortunately with the gun he had he had managed to kill 9 people in those first 30 seconds.


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[Sir David Gray]

The shooting in Ohio was stopped by a good guy with a gun in about 30 seconds. It was pretty impressive response from nearby police. Unfortunately with the gun he had he had managed to kill 9 people in those first 30 seconds.


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Was that "good guy" not a police officer though? I don't think that's quite what the poster was asking as some of the police in the UK are armed too so an attack of this nature could have been stopped by UK police.

I think the question was more asking whether any private citizen "good guy" had ever stopped one of these attacks by shooting the perpetrator? Which obviously wouldn't be an option in this country.

[Hibs Class]

I disagree, America can’t stop this madness. You can shout from the roof tops all day long about banning guns, ain’t gonna happen. I’ve explained why it can’t or won’t happen. You can choose to ignore this if you want. I think it’s naive to think that these guns bought legally or illegally would have changed anything. The Ohio shooter was suspended at school for having a hit list and rape list. If those aren’t red flags, what the hell is.

This country isn’t like any other country in the world. It’s made up from 50 different states that all have different laws. The country is split down the middle Republican and Democratic. The country is also split on guns with about 60% in favor of leaving gun laws as is. This isn’t the U.K. where they formed a nice orderly line and handed them all in. Gorveners and States would refuse to comply, citizens would rise up and would go to war to defend the 2nd amendment. You might think that’s far fetched, believe me it isn’t.

Stopping it might be overly ambitious / unrealistic but even reducing the madness would save lives.

[Haymaker]

Was that "good guy" not a police officer though? I don't think that's quite what the poster was asking as some of the police in the UK are armed too so an attack of this nature could have been stopped by UK police.

I think the question was more asking whether any private citizen "good guy" had ever stopped one of these attacks by shooting the perpetrator? Which obviously wouldn't be an option in this country.

A few (might be longer than that) months ago a shooting was stopped by a citizen. He was shot by the police who believed he was the shooter IIRC.

[JeMeSouviens]

I disagree, America can’t stop this madness. You can shout from the roof tops all day long about banning guns, ain’t gonna happen. I’ve explained why it can’t or won’t happen. You can choose to ignore this if you want. I think it’s naive to think that these guns bought legally or illegally would have changed anything. The Ohio shooter was suspended at school for having a hit list and rape list. If those aren’t red flags, what the hell is.

This country isn’t like any other country in the world. It’s made up from 50 different states that all have different laws. The country is split down the middle Republican and Democratic. The country is also split on guns with about 60% in favor of leaving gun laws as is. This isn’t the U.K. where they formed a nice orderly line and handed them all in. Gorveners and States would refuse to comply, citizens would rise up and would go to war to defend the 2nd amendment. You might think that’s far fetched, believe me it isn’t.

A murderer requires means, motive and opportunity.

They can have all the motive and opportunity going but if you take away the means they won't kill people.

[beensaidbefore]

A murderer requires means, motive and opportunity.

They can have all the motive and opportunity going but if you take away the means they won't kill people.

I think the point being made by detriot is that the very people likely to have motive and opportunity are the very people unlikely to comply with any gun control laws.

You can get guns in this county quite easily if you want to, so I can only imagine that would be the case in America too, only much more simple.

[Ozyhibby]

I think the point being made by detriot is that the very people likely to have motive and opportunity are the very people unlikely to comply with any gun control laws.

You can get guns in this county quite easily if you want to, so I can only imagine that would be the case in America too, only much more simple.

It’s not that easy to get guns here. They tend to be modified or antique guns and not the sort of semi automatic assault rifles used in these cases. I would be interested to see what the black market price is in the uk for one of those assault rifles was. I think it might be just out of the price range of your average sad little 21 year old racist.


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[beensaidbefore]

It’s not that easy to get guns here. They tend to be modified or antique guns and not the sort of semi automatic assault rifles used in these cases. I would be interested to see what the black market price is in the uk for one of those assault rifles was. I think it might be just out of the price range of your average sad little 21 year old racist.



It's easy if you know the correct people and have the means and desire/motive opportunity. I have no idea how much they cost, but I think you could pick up a hand gun for around £500, possibly even less, depending who you know. In America that's going to be a hell of a lot easier, so getting the good guys to hand their guns in ain't going to solve anything which was kinda my point. If someone feels the need to kill someone with a gun they will manage especially in a country with 400million guns.

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... Oops, something not right with that post. On phone so struggling to change it.

[Smartie]

Apologies, I realise this is a bit of a diversion but I was fascinated by the content of this article, one of BBC's long reads.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/gun_no_6_untold_story_britains_deadliest_illegal_f irearm

TBH I'd always thought it would be quite easy to get hold of a gun if I really wanted to, but after reading this I think that whilst there is a lot of talk of guns and gun culture in the UK there actually can't be that many illegal guns out there - the same few must be circulating.

[calumhibee1]

Was that "good guy" not a police officer though? I don't think that's quite what the poster was asking as some of the police in the UK are armed too so an attack of this nature could have been stopped by UK police.

I think the question was more asking whether any private citizen "good guy" had ever stopped one of these attacks by shooting the perpetrator? Which obviously wouldn't be an option in this country.

It was, I should have been clearer. Haymarkets answer to the question is a shocker. Sums up what goes on over there.

[beensaidbefore]

Apologies, I realise this is a bit of a diversion but I was fascinated by the content of this article, one of BBC's long reads.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/gun_no_6_untold_story_britains_deadliest_illegal_f irearm

TBH I'd always thought it would be quite easy to get hold of a gun if I really wanted to, but after reading this I think that whilst there is a lot of talk of guns and gun culture in the UK there actually can't be that many illegal guns out there - the same few must be circulating.


Interesting read.

[DetroitHibs]

With more guns that actual people in this country, getting a gun banned or not wouldn’t be that difficult nor that hard. Hard drugs like cocaine are banned, bet anyone could get a few grams of that if they wanted. It’s so easy to make a high power semiautomatic rifle, go check YouTube and watch someone building an AR15. They can even print the parts needed using a 3D printer, it’s crazy.

[lapsedhibee]

With more guns that actual people in this country, getting a gun banned or not wouldn’t be that difficult nor that hard. Hard drugs like cocaine are banned, bet anyone could get a few grams of that if they wanted. It’s so easy to make a high power semiautomatic rifle, go check YouTube and watch someone building an AR15. They can even print the parts needed using a 3D printer, it’s crazy.

A 3D printer must cost a lot more than a gun in Walmart though, shirley?

[DetroitHibs]

A 3D printer must cost a lot more than a gun in Walmart though, shirley?

I’m sure it does.

[lapsedhibee]

I’m sure it does.

So if you stopped selling guns, only a few people would print their own. Net result, fewer guns. Gotta start somewhere eh.

[DetroitHibs]

So if you stopped selling guns, only a few people would print their own. Net result, fewer guns. Gotta start somewhere eh.

Or a bunch of illegal dealers turn up printing hundreds of illegal lower receivers and selling them. Doesn’t matter if it’s guns, drugs or whatever. Just because something is illegal or banned, doesn’t make it stop or go away.

[Smartie]

Or a bunch of illegal dealers turn up printing hundreds of illegal lower receivers and selling them. Doesn’t matter if it’s guns, drugs or whatever. Just because something is illegal or banned, doesn’t make it stop or go away.

Just because you can't eradicate a problem entirely doesn't mean you shouldn't take a step in the right direction. Also, just because you might change a problem or worsen it initially doesn't mean it isn't worth making a change for the long term good.

Far be it for us to tell you what to do, it appears you'd rather take the significantly increased chances of you or your loved ones being blasted by a nutter in order to have the peace of mind of having your own gun in the house. The benefits of giving up that peace of mind bizarrely do not seem to be worth the risk.

I do have sympathy with your position, as much as I disagree with it. The ingrained gun culture in the USA is not something that can or will be changed in a hurry, and it is often naive and idealistic of us outsiders to expect anything else.

[DetroitHibs]

Just because you can't eradicate a problem entirely doesn't mean you shouldn't take a step in the right direction. Also, just because you might change a problem or worsen it initially doesn't mean it isn't worth making a change for the long term good.

Far be it for us to tell you what to do, it appears you'd rather take the significantly increased chances of you or your loved ones being blasted by a nutter in order to have the peace of mind of having your own gun in the house. The benefits of giving up that peace of mind bizarrely do not seem to be worth the risk.

I do have sympathy with your position, as much as I disagree with it. The ingrained gun culture in the USA is not something that can or will be changed in a hurry, and it is often naive and idealistic of us outsiders to expect anything else.

One of the reasons I hate debating guns is I'm always perceived to be for them and not against any kind of laws and legislation. That's honestly the opposite. When it comes to these mass shootings, I don't think banning something would change the outcome. They banned bumpstocks recently. I personally think they are a stupid gimmick, designed to give the feel of an automatic weapon. The ban however is a complete waste of time and would save zero life's in a mass shooting.

When it comes to making a difference, both sides are as bad as the other and don't want to listen. These shootings all start with the individual, not the gun. If we can change things from there you have a chance of lessening the frequency of these mass shootings.

Regulation has to be tightened up, but how. I'll give me my thoughts.

Firstly I think the ease of buying a gun has to change. You start with a person's history. Do they have a history of violence, are they on an antidepressant. These should end a persons ability to buy a firearm. I think medical records should be available, anyone seeing a shrink and is suicidal and angry.

That's a start, but unfortunately won't stop the same people purchasing a gun illegally. I don't have an answer, nobody does. When you start to dig deeper and look at the individuals, many are on some kind of behavior drug.

If I genuinely thought banning all guns would stop this, I'd be all in. I just don't think it would or is even feasible.

[DetroitHibs]

How has the ban on knives worked out in the U.K.? Has it stopped people being stabbed, slashed and murdered? From the quick google search it’s gotten worse, a lot worse. According to the BBC, knife crimes are up a staggering 80%, with over 43,000 knife crimes committed between March 2018-2019.

My point isn’t to compare guns to knifes, we all know guns are far deadlier. My question is, why such a huge increase in these violent crimes. Obviously banning knifes had zero affect. We all know the ********s that carry a blade don’t give a monkeys wether it’s legal or not. Surely this rise in crime and violence is a problem with society, not the object. How do we change this? That’s the million dollar question.

[Sylar]

How has the ban on knives worked out in the U.K.? Has it stopped people being stabbed, slashed and murdered? From the quick google search it’s gotten worse, a lot worse. According to the BBC, knife crimes are up a staggering 80%, with over 43,000 knife crimes committed between March 2018-2019.

My point isn’t to compare guns to knifes, we all know guns are far deadlier. My question is, why such a huge increase in these violent crimes. Obviously banning knifes had zero affect. We all know the ********s that carry a blade don’t give a monkeys wether it’s legal or not. Surely this rise in crime and violence is a problem with society, not the object. How do we change this? That’s the million dollar question.

In the same way that you advocated gang violence should not be included in the gun violence statistics in the USA, it would be remiss of me not to point out that the large surge in knife crime in the UK has mostly been linked to increasing gang attacks/initiations etc.

[Smartie]

How has the ban on knives worked out in the U.K.? Has it stopped people being stabbed, slashed and murdered? From the quick google search it’s gotten worse, a lot worse. According to the BBC, knife crimes are up a staggering 80%, with over 43,000 knife crimes committed between March 2018-2019.

My point isn’t to compare guns to knifes, we all know guns are far deadlier. My question is, why such a huge increase in these violent crimes. Obviously banning knifes had zero affect. We all know the ********s that carry a blade don’t give a monkeys wether it’s legal or not. Surely this rise in crime and violence is a problem with society, not the object. How do we change this? That’s the million dollar question.

Without knowing any of the details (someone will surely help me here) I think a lot of the knife issues are regional. London is in the grip of a knife crime epidemic, the same as Glasgow has experienced in the past. There is a clamour in London to "do what Glasgow has done" to tackle knife crime, what that is I'm not sure but the general opinion is that Glasgow has done well in their battle with knife crime.

Please don't think I'm having a go, your input into this thread has been very interesting. I fully accept the difficulty of the American situation and I don't think for a second there is a simple solution or one without potentially very nasty side effects.

[Ozyhibby]

When the Clinton administration banned assault rifles there was a real fall in mass shootings and things were really improving but as soon as the ban was lifted it got massively worse.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190806/76da519243c3e8420a9f9a56f9ba3717.jpg
Even in the USA, gun control works.


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[Sir David Gray]

How has the ban on knives worked out in the U.K.? Has it stopped people being stabbed, slashed and murdered? From the quick google search it’s gotten worse, a lot worse. According to the BBC, knife crimes are up a staggering 80%, with over 43,000 knife crimes committed between March 2018-2019.

My point isn’t to compare guns to knifes, we all know guns are far deadlier. My question is, why such a huge increase in these violent crimes. Obviously banning knifes had zero affect. We all know the ********s that carry a blade don’t give a monkeys wether it’s legal or not. Surely this rise in crime and violence is a problem with society, not the object. How do we change this? That’s the million dollar question.

Knives are legitimate kitchen utensils found in almost every home in the country. There cannot be a widespread ban on them in the same way that there is for guns.

You aren't comparing like for like here. Knives can be legally owned, they just can't be carried around in public. It makes sense that people who are intent on using a knife illegally will ignore the fact that it's illegal to carry a knife in public, it's the fact that they are legal to own in the first place that makes them so easy to access.

The same goes for guns in the USA.

[DetroitHibs]

Knives are legitimate kitchen utensils found in almost every home in the country. There cannot be a widespread ban on them in the same way that there is for guns.

You aren't comparing like for like here. Knives can be legally owned, they just can't be carried around in public. It makes sense that people who are intent on using a knife illegally will ignore the fact that it's illegal to carry a knife in public, it's the fact that they are legal to own in the first place that makes them so easy to access.

The same goes for guns in the USA.

I’m not trying to compare them like for like. I’m pointing out that a ban did absolutely zero to curb the knife crime. If the ban was lifted I don’t see the numbers drastically going up either. The ban had zero effect on knife crime. If the problem is gang culture, that’s where to start, not banning the knife. The violence starts with humanity. We have to change that.

[DetroitHibs]

When the Clinton administration banned assault rifles there was a real fall in mass shootings and things were really improving but as soon as the ban was lifted it got massively worse.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190806/76da519243c3e8420a9f9a56f9ba3717.jpg
Even in the USA, gun control works.


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So many studies showed this had little to no effect.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

[Haymaker]

One of the reasons I hate debating guns is I'm always perceived to be for them and not against any kind of laws and legislation.

This.

I grew up pre-uk ban and would regularly play with guns at my uncle's as a little kid. He had a **** load. And my brother and I still enjoy shooting - I'm off to Florida this winter to target shoot guns I'm not allowed in my state, my brother (UK resident) recently acquired a shotgun licence to clay pigeon shoot.

Living now in the US has exposed me to the culture of gun ownership that, sometimes, make no sense. I know people who went out a got a gun licence and a handgun before the last election because - and I directly quote - "Hilary is coming for our guns."

I know several people who own actual ****ing full blown arsenal's... But they just like to target shoot.

I know CEOs, CFOs, CIOs who have gun arsenals. I regular drink with, and coach the daughter of, a guy who carries everywhere he goes. As I type this I am stood next to a friend who has a gun on his hip. And I live in one of the most gun restricted states.

Guns are totally ingrained in US society. And US society is culturally similar to the UK they are not the same.

As I said earlier, I enjoy shooting. I am also appalled at these mass shootings. However the "simple solution" to ban guns or ammunition would not work for the reasons Detroit Hibs said - the guns are already out there. I helped a friend move and I moved 25,000 rounds.

It's totally insane. The whole situation is absolutely bat **** crazy.

[Ozyhibby]

Sounds like you guys have just accepted as an acceptable price to pay for being able to own guns. I can now see the difficulty in getting anything done over there. In time I guess people will stop caring because if Americans don’t care then why should anyone else. It’s all pretty grim.


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[NAE NOOKIE]

Sounds like you guys have just accepted as an acceptable price to pay for being able to own guns. I can now see the difficulty in getting anything done over there. In time I guess people will stop caring because if Americans don’t care then why should anyone else. It’s all pretty grim.


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Totally my take on it as well, a bit like if you live in rural India or Africa the risk of snake bite is just a part of day to day life, so it is in America that the chance of being shot by a nutter is part of day to day life and they seem prepared to accept that, at least at a political level, as part of being an American. Lets face it, if they were going to take the issue seriously they would have done it by now.

The fact is they have become desensitised and if proof of that was needed the day of the Las Vegas massacre of 50 odd people the top trending story on social media was the death of Tom Petty.

I don't know why folk in Europe even bother discussing this stuff any more, me included, if they don't care why the hell should we? You really do get to a stage where the wish to sympathise or condemn is being rapidly being overtaken by an overwhelming desire to ridicule.

[Haymaker]

Sounds like you guys have just accepted as an acceptable price to pay for being able to own guns. I can now see the difficulty in getting anything done over there. In time I guess people will stop caring because if Americans don’t care then why should anyone else. It’s all pretty grim.


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No, it's not an acceptable price. However you won't get rid of guns or ammunition in this country. It isn't a simple Solution of "ban guns" and "ban ammunition".

[DetroitHibs]

This.

I grew up pre-uk ban and would regularly play with guns at my uncle's as a little kid. He had a **** load. And my brother and I still enjoy shooting - I'm off to Florida this winter to target shoot guns I'm not allowed in my state, my brother (UK resident) recently acquired a shotgun licence to clay pigeon shoot.

Living now in the US has exposed me to the culture of gun ownership that, sometimes, make no sense. I know people who went out a got a gun licence and a handgun before the last election because - and I directly quote - "Hilary is coming for our guns."

I know several people who own actual ****ing full blown arsenal's... But they just like to target shoot.

I know CEOs, CFOs, CIOs who have gun arsenals. I regular drink with, and coach the daughter of, a guy who carries everywhere he goes. As I type this I am stood next to a friend who has a gun on his hip. And I live in one of the most gun restricted states.

Guns are totally ingrained in US society. And US society is culturally similar to the UK they are not the same.

As I said earlier, I enjoy shooting. I am also appalled at these mass shootings. However the "simple solution" to ban guns or ammunition would not work for the reasons Detroit Hibs said - the guns are already out there. I helped a friend move and I moved 25,000 rounds.

It's totally insane. The whole situation is absolutely bat **** crazy.

I think it’s hard for people to fathom that don’t actually live here day to day. Like you said, guns are ingrained in to the culture, it’s completely different from anywhere else in the world. If they banned guns, I’d turn them in, but I’d be in the minority. I’d also feel less safter and don’t think these mass shootings would stop or even lessen.

[NAE NOOKIE]

No, it's not an acceptable price. However you won't get rid of guns or ammunition in this country. It isn't a simple Solution of "ban guns" and "ban ammunition".

Yes it bloody well is mate, yes it absolutely is. If a man doesn't have a machine gun he cant kill 20 people in two minutes, if a man doesn't have a hand gun he cant kill 3 people in two minutes. There is no need whatsoever for an ordinary citizen of any civilized country to own a gun outside of sport or vermin control and especially an automatic weapon, so yes banning guns and ammo is absolutely the solution … its just that too many Americans are unwilling or unable to face up to that fact and at least try to make it happen.

You know what really does surprise me? The fact that up until now a grief stricken parent or sibling of a murdered child hasn't declared war on the gun lobby and arms manufacturers and given them a taste of their own medicine with a few well placed bombs or gun rampages of their own … if you ask me that's only a matter of time.

[Haymaker]

I think it’s hard for people to fathom that don’t actually live here day to day. Like you said, guns are ingrained in to the culture, it’s completely different from anywhere else in the world. If they banned guns, I’d turn them in, but I’d be in the minority. I’d also feel less safter and don’t think these mass shootings would stop or even lessen.

Correct mate. I'm not allowed to own a gun (I'm not a US citizen) and I happen to live in an area where violent crime isn't really something that happens but I know people who own full blown arsenals.

Before I moved here I never got it either. Every state, **** every county, in this country is different and it makes no sense.

[Haymaker]

Yes it bloody well is mate, yes it absolutely is. If a man doesn't have a machine gun he cant kill 20 people in two minutes, if a man doesn't have a hand gun he cant kill 3 people in two minutes. There is no need whatsoever for an ordinary citizen of any civilized country to own a gun outside of sport or vermin control, so yes banning guns and ammo is absolutely the solution … its just that too many Americans are unwilling or unable to face up to that fact and at least try to make it happen.

You know what really does surprise me? The fact that up until now a grief stricken parent or sibling of a murdered child hasn't declared war on the gun lobby and arms manufacturers and given them a taste of their own medicine with a few well placed bombs or gun rampages of their own … if you ask me that's only a matter of time.

They are already out there. A friend of mine has 3 versions of AR+15s, several versions of the AK family, 4 different M1 garlands, SLRs, he has a ton of handguns, 10 different versions of blocks alone. I moved 25,000 rounds out of his house! And that was just in NJ! He has weapons in PA (lenient) and Florida (very lenient).

I am fully behind a change in the laws. I'm appalled as anyone. I live opposite a federal building and I reckon I've seen the flag at half mast most of this year.

The culture will not change over night.

And this country is very, very different to back home.

[DetroitHibs]

Yes it bloody well is mate, yes it absolutely is. If a man doesn't have a machine gun he cant kill 20 people in two minutes, if a man doesn't have a hand gun he cant kill 3 people in two minutes. There is no need whatsoever for an ordinary citizen of any civilized country to own a gun outside of sport or vermin control and especially an automatic weapon, so yes banning guns and ammo is absolutely the solution … its just that too many Americans are unwilling or unable to face up to that fact and at least try to make it happen.

You know what really does surprise me? The fact that up until now a grief stricken parent or sibling of a murdered child hasn't declared war on the gun lobby and arms manufacturers and given them a taste of their own medicine with a few well placed bombs or gun rampages of their own … if you ask me that's only a matter of time.

So naive to think that by banning guns, 400 millions guns disappear and get turned in. That’s the legal ones btw, probably another 400 million illegal guns. The majority of Americans don’t want guns banned, that’s the bottom line.

You tell me what you think would happen if they banned guns tomorrow and I’ll tell you what I think would happen.

[Hibrandenburg]

They are already out there. A friend of mine has 3 versions of AR+15s, several versions of the AK family, 4 different M1 garlands, SLRs, he has a ton of handguns, 10 different versions of blocks alone. I moved 25,000 rounds out of his house! And that was just in NJ! He has weapons in PA (lenient) and Florida (very lenient).

I am fully behind a change in the laws. I'm appalled as anyone. I live opposite a federal building and I reckon I've seen the flag at half mast most of this year.

The culture will not change over night.

And this country is very, very different to back home.

I wasn't going to get involved in this because I really am past caring. If American culture dictates that the right/desire to bare arms is more important than the safety of their kids at school or in the mall then that's a decision they need to make or have already made. To accept guns are an integral part of American culture is a cop out in the same way that female genital mutilation, child marriage and slavery are accepted in some cultures. Banning guns for sale is only a start, you then have to ban carrying then, possession of them and educate the people why you are doing so, it will take decades to implement and probably longer to have effect but it would eventually have an effect. Let's stop pretending it won't work, it might not completely eradicate all the problems but it would help, problem is they choose not to and continually find excuses not to. Their choice, their problem.

[weecounty hibby]

They are already out there. A friend of mine has 3 versions of AR+15s, several versions of the AK family, 4 different M1 garlands, SLRs, he has a ton of handguns, 10 different versions of blocks alone. I moved 25,000 rounds out of his house! And that was just in NJ! He has weapons in PA (lenient) and Florida (very lenient).

I am fully behind a change in the laws. I'm appalled as anyone. I live opposite a federal building and I reckon I've seen the flag at half mast most of this year.

The culture will not change over night.

And this country is very, very different to back home.

I'm not going to debate the rights and wrongs but your description there is beyond belief. What happens if your friend has an episode in his life where he loses control? He has an arsenal there that within minutes he could easily kill dozens of people. That for me is the scary part, and you don't see any issue with it.

[Fife-Hibee]

So naive to think that by banning guns, 400 millions guns disappear and get turned in. That’s the legal ones btw, probably another 400 million illegal guns. The majority of Americans don’t want guns banned, that’s the bottom line.

You tell me what you think would happen if they banned guns tomorrow and I’ll tell you what I think would happen.

Obviously they shouldn't instantly ban guns. But the American Government could be doing far more to promote a change in attitude towards owning them. Perhaps doing more to point out how ultimately impractical it is to own a gun for family protection. As the gun would need to be sealed away somewhere to keep it out of the hands of the children, but at the same time, unless you're sleeping while hugging that gun. The chance of actually being able to obtain the gun quickly enough should your house be broken into is very slim.

Guns are not the result of a security problem in America, it's an attitude problem more than anything else.

[Fife-Hibee]

I'm not going to debate the rights and wrongs but your description there is beyond belief. What happens if your friend has an episode in his life where he loses control? He has an arsenal there that within minutes he could easily kill dozens of people. That for me is the scary part, and you don't see any issue with it.

:agree:

Considering the sheer amount of profit-raking pharmaceuticals most Americans are taking these days, it's not surprising that some of them completely flip at some point.

[Sir David Gray]

I’m not trying to compare them like for like. I’m pointing out that a ban did absolutely zero to curb the knife crime. If the ban was lifted I don’t see the numbers drastically going up either. The ban had zero effect on knife crime. If the problem is gang culture, that’s where to start, not banning the knife. The violence starts with humanity. We have to change that.

Knives aren't banned though, that's the difference. Under 18s are banned from buying them in a shop but that's not the same as an outright ban. A 16 year old can still go into their kitchen and take out a sharp knife and use it to stab someone. Yes that's illegal but the opportunity is still there.

If a ban came in tomorrow covering all kitchen knives and we had to use plastic ones instead then I'm sure knife crime would eventually go down although it's still not the same as using a gun as guns require ammunition in order to be used, knives don't need anything.

That's not going to happen anyway though because an outright ban on kitchen knives is impractical for many legitimate reasons. That's not quite the same with guns.

To me there's two issues at hand here, one is whether or not imposing a ban on guns in the USA is even possible due to the sheer number in circulation and also because of people's ingrained belief that it's their constitutional right to bear arms. I think most people on here are in agreement that it's not an easy thing to impose on the population of the USA.

The second point is the one where we differ, which is whether or not a ban (should it be possible to bring one in) would make any difference to the number of shootings taking place. I'm finding it really hard to understand how a ban would not reduce the number of shootings.

[calumhibee1]

Knives aren't banned though, that's the difference. Under 18s are banned from buying them in a shop but that's not the same as an outright ban. A 16 year old can still go into their kitchen and take out a sharp knife and use it to stab someone. Yes that's illegal but the opportunity is still there.

If a ban came in tomorrow covering all kitchen knives and we had to use plastic ones instead then I'm sure knife crime would eventually go down although it's still not the same as using a gun as guns require ammunition in order to be used, knives don't need anything.

That's not going to happen anyway though because an outright ban on kitchen knives is impractical for many legitimate reasons. That's not quite the same with guns.

To me there's two issues at hand here, one is whether or not imposing a ban on guns in the USA is even possible due to the sheer number in circulation and also because of people's ingrained belief that it's their constitutional right to bear arms. I think most people on here are in agreement that it's not an easy thing to impose on the population of the USA.

The second point is the one where we differ, which is whether or not a ban (should it be possible to bring one in) would make any difference to the number of shootings taking place. I'm finding it really hard to understand how a ban would not reduce the number of shootings.

Your last point I 100% agree with. I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks that banning guns wouldn't reduce the number of shootings. Yes, there's masses of guns in circulation, and yes, it maybe wouldn't make a massive difference to begin with, but it would eventually help matters. I don't really see how there can be any argument about that.

If it became illegal to carry guns there would be plenty Americans who would hand there's in because they didn't want to suddenly be in possession of something that could get them X amount of years in jail if it was ever found. That can only be a good start.

I can see why a lot of people think it's too far gone and it probably is too far gone to turn things around to being the way every other country treats guns. But it can be improved.

[calumhibee1]

I wasn't going to get involved in this because I really am past caring. If American culture dictates that the right/desire to bare arms is more important than the safety of their kids at school or in the mall then that's a decision they need to make or have already made. To accept guns are an integral part of American culture is a cop out in the same way that female genital mutilation, child marriage and slavery are accepted in some cultures. Banning guns for sale is only a start, you then have to ban carrying then, possession of them and educate the people why you are doing so, it will take decades to implement and probably longer to have effect but it would eventually have an effect. Let's stop pretending it won't work, it might not completely eradicate all the problems but it would help, problem is they choose not to and continually find excuses not to. Their choice, their problem.

:top marks

Nobody is suggesting that banning guns today would fix all the issues by tomorrow. But it would help, whether it's 10 years, 20 years or 40 years down the line, the difference to attitudes in guns would eventually be huge.

The attitude towards guns would even be massively different by the time the first generation who don't remember legal guns became old enough to own them as it stands now. There's no way a generation of kids would grow up with the same mindset that Americans have now if owning them was illegal.

And I also find it mental how many Americans seem to feel unsafe all the time. I have literally never felt unsafe living in Edinburgh or even on holiday in Europe etc. Come to think of it, I've been to America 20 odd times and I've never felt unsafe there either. WTF are you all afraid of?

[SHODAN]

I think the point being made by detriot is that the very people likely to have motive and opportunity are the very people unlikely to comply with any gun control laws.

You can get guns in this county quite easily if you want to, so I can only imagine that would be the case in America too, only much more simple.

Wouldn't a start be to at least regulate sale of guns rather than trying to remove ones already in circulation?

[McD]

Wouldn't a start be to at least regulate sale of guns rather than trying to remove ones already in circulation?


:agree:

Also, couldn’t there be much tighter regulations on the purchase of ammunition? An automatic weapon becomes less dangerous when acquiring ammunition for it is much more difficult. Your average homeowner protecting his/hers won’t be buying ammo very often, and people buying ammo for sporting purposes could go through stringent checks, for very specific weapons, with paperwork from their sporting organisation, amongst all the other things suggested on this thread, to justify the purchase of the bullets.

By taking both these steps, it limits the availability of weapons to individuals of a mind to go on a rampage as we’ve seen all too often, and also combats the illegal weapons out there that wouldn’t be handed in if a full ban was enacted. I’m quite sure the criminals could get hold of ammo in the short term, but over weeks and months that ammo supply would dry up dramatically.

[Ozyhibby]

It used to be in the culture in this country that it was ok to have a few pints and then drive home so long as you didn’t get caught. An education campaign by the govt totally changed that.
If America was committed then it could easily change its gun culture.
I personally think it is heading for a civil war first but hey ho.


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[JeMeSouviens]

It used to be in the culture in this country that it was ok to have a few pints and then drive home so long as you didn’t get caught. An education campaign by the govt totally changed that.
If America was committed then it could easily change its gun culture.
I personally think it is heading for a civil war first but hey ho.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

:agree:

I don't think it would be easy and might take decades to change the culture but they'll never get anywhere if they refuse to even take a first step.

[Just Alf]

:agree:

Also, couldn’t there be much tighter regulations on the purchase of ammunition? An automatic weapon becomes less dangerous when acquiring ammunition for it is much more difficult. Your average homeowner protecting his/hers won’t be buying ammo very often, and people buying ammo for sporting purposes could go through stringent checks, for very specific weapons, with paperwork from their sporting organisation, amongst all the other things suggested on this thread, to justify the purchase of the bullets.

By taking both these steps, it limits the availability of weapons to individuals of a mind to go on a rampage as we’ve seen all too often, and also combats the illegal weapons out there that wouldn’t be handed in if a full ban was enacted. I’m quite sure the criminals could get hold of ammo in the short term, but over weeks and months that ammo supply would dry up dramatically.

Good shout, let everyone keep their guns. let them buy ammo freely BUT up to a limit (who needs 25000 rounds at home, what's that actually for?), that said, as we all agree the guns are mainly for sport, then there should also be a way to buy as many rounds as you want at a range etc.... as long as they're all used at the range and none taken away.

Win/Win, everyone gets to keep their guns and a certain level of ammo that provides 'self defence security' they also get as much ammo to support any sporting/hunting ambitions they have, that'll turn off the tap of having masses of ammo in circulation. One small step, but still a step.

Another step would be to drastically restrict those with mental health issues (as well as criminal convictions etc), allow them to keep a gun at a range etc so they don't totally lose out and also possibly an exemption in out of town areas where they'd be able to keep a sporting rifle and whatever the sensible level of ammunition is.

[pontius pilate]

For me the main problem is the purchase of guns. For example you can go to a gun show and buy a high powered rifle with next to no checks job done. You could visit a gun shop in New York and go through the checks and wait 4 days and pick up your new handgun yet you could easily go into a gun shop in say Alabama with next to no checks. Then there is the difference between state and federal law. Even buying a gun on craigslist or equivalent sites. The whole buying and selling if guns needs to be drastically tightened untill the regulations change for me no further steps can be taken

[NAE NOOKIE]

So naive to think that by banning guns, 400 millions guns disappear and get turned in. That’s the legal ones btw, probably another 400 million illegal guns. The majority of Americans don’t want guns banned, that’s the bottom line.

You tell me what you think would happen if they banned guns tomorrow and I’ll tell you what I think would happen.

I wasn't suggesting that banning guns would have any sort of immediate effect on the gun culture in America and their obsession with them and I have absolutely no doubt the sale of illegal weapons would rocket. But if automatic weapons and hand guns were banned tomorrow then what cant be denied is that any sort of gray areas would immediately disappear, a person in possession of such a weapon would immediately be breaking the law and more to the point know they were breaking it, and from my POV that's a start.

Here's a thought. Anybody who wants to own a firearm outside of farmers or other occupations where possession of such an item can be justified should be subject to an annual tax of $100 with the money being used to compensate the relatives of the massacred and pay for the hospital treatment of the injured … I mean, if a load of massacred kids is a price worth paying to uphold the right to bear arms surely a hundred bucks a year is too.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/bnonews/status/1158929032441925632?s=21

A price worth paying?


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[Hibrandenburg]

To me there's two issues at hand here, one is whether or not imposing a ban on guns in the USA is even possible due to the sheer number in circulation and also because of people's ingrained belief that it's their constitutional right to bear arms. I think most people on here are in agreement that it's not an easy thing to impose on the population of the USA.

The people's ingrained belief that the 2nd amendment grants them the right to bare arms is a myth. If they wanted to they could easily dispel that myth but again it boils down to them not wanting to. Excuses excuses excuses, they are simply not willing to change, they collectively love their guns more than their children.

[Just Alf]

The people's ingrained belief that the 2nd amendment grants them the right to bare arms is a myth. If they wanted to they could easily dispel that myth but again it boils down to them not wanting to. Excuses excuses excuses, they are simply not willing to change, they collectively love their guns more than their children.Agreed, the 1st 4 words of the amendment explain what it's about... "A well regulated militia"

Taking the actual words at face value, theres no way that should include a singleton 'Joe public' that wants to carry a gun about?



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[Moulin Yarns]

The people's ingrained belief that the 2nd amendment grants them the right to bare arms is a myth. If they wanted to they could easily dispel that myth but again it boils down to them not wanting to. Excuses excuses excuses, they are simply not willing to change, they collectively love their guns more than their children.

You piqued my curiosity

The Second Amendment (http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html#amendmentii) of the United States Constitution (http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.overview.html) reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Had the amendment not included the part between commas we wouldn't be having this debate. The right of the people (the well regulated militia) to keep and bear arms (for the security of a free state) is my understandng, not taking the the part between commas in isolation. But the lawers disagree.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/second_amendment

I suppose if the "right to bear arms" interpreted as being the individual has kept the population in check then it's a good thing :wink:




James Madison originally proposed the Second Amendment shortly after the Constitution was officially ratified as a way to provide more power to state militias, which today are considered the National Guard. It was deemed a compromise between Federalists — those who supported the Constitution as it was ratified — and the anti-Federalists — those who supported states having more power. Having just used guns and other arms to ward off the English, the amendment was originally created to give citizens the opportunity to fight back against a tyrannical federal government.


A 2016 working paper from Harvard Business School researchers (https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2776657) found that a mass shooting leads to a 15 percent increase in the number of firearm-related bills introduced into the state legislature that year. The more fatalities, the larger the increase in firearm bills. But the bills aren't always what you might expect: When Republicans hold power in the state legislature after a mass shooting, the number of laws enacted to loosen gun restrictions goes up 75 percent. Democrat-controlled legislatures, on the other hand, did not enact a higher rate of regulation-tightening laws immediately after mass shootings than before."This is consistent with survey evidence suggesting that even when a majority supports a gun-control proposal, those opposed to increased gun control are more likely to take actions like writing a letter or donating money to support their side," the researchers wrote.

[Hibrandenburg]

Agreed, the 1st 4 words of the amendment explain what it's about... "A well regulated militia"

Taking the actual words at face value, theres no way that should include a singleton 'Joe public' that wants to carry a gun about?



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Exactly this. The 2nd amendment is an instrument of government and relates to national defence. The "well regulated militia" refers to what is now known as the National Guard and intended to allow individual states the ability to raise a militia at short notice in times of conflict but under command of the President and National Government.

[Hibrandenburg]

You piqued my curiosity

The Second Amendment (http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html#amendmentii) of the United States Constitution (http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.overview.html) reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Had the amendment not included the part between commas we wouldn't be having this debate. The right of the people (the well regulated militia) to keep and bear arms (for the security of a free state) is my understandng, not taking the the part between commas in isolation. But the lawers disagree.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/second_amendment

I suppose if the "right to bear arms" interpreted as being the individual has kept the population in check then it's a good thing :wink:

It's not really open to interpretation. Alexander Hamilton wrote in fine detail what he meant by a "well regulated militia".

[Moulin Yarns]

Exactly this. The 2nd amendment is an instrument of government and relates to national defence. The "well regulated militia" refers to what is now known as the National Guard and intended to allow individual states the ability to raise a militia at short notice in times of conflict but under command of the President and National Government.

To fight "the English" or, in the south, an uprising of slaves

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190809/20cc8156d72c5331c41ec2d727d6eb8b.jpg


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[Hibernia&Alba]

https://youtu.be/1qZB9GmMMRs

[DetroitHibs]

I think it’s a bad idea for Walmart to stop selling guns. Firstly they stopped selling guns like the AR15 and AK47 years ago. Now it’s just shotguns and hunting rifles.

Here’s the main reason it’s a bad idea. Number one, it’s not going to stop the madness one single bit. Number two, it’s actually a good idea for people to buy through Walmart than from another individual. I’ve bought and sold many guns from individuals. There’s a site called Armslist which is a free site like Craigslist or Gumtree for guns and ammo.

I can email or text a guy selling an AK47, Drive a half hour, give him $600 and be on my way with a semiautomatic rifle, with no background check or registry. If I buy a rifle from Walmart I have to go through a background check and show my ID. Why would you want to eliminate that option?

[Ozyhibby]

I think it’s a bad idea for Walmart to stop selling guns. Firstly they stopped selling guns like the AR15 and AK47 years ago. Now it’s just shotguns and hunting rifles.

Here’s the main reason it’s a bad idea. Number one, it’s not going to stop the madness one single bit. Number two, it’s actually a good idea for people to buy through Walmart than from another individual. I’ve bought and sold many guns from individuals. There’s a site called Armslist which is a free site like Craigslist or Gumtree for guns and ammo.

I can email or text a guy selling an AK47, Drive a half hour, give him $600 and be on my way with a semiautomatic rifle, with no background check or registry. If I buy a rifle from Walmart I have to go through a background check and show my ID. Why would you want to eliminate that option?

I think most people want to stop everyone selling guns, not just Walmart. Just say you like guns and don’t want to give them up.


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[lapsedhibee]

I think it’s a bad idea for Walmart to stop selling guns. Firstly they stopped selling guns like the AR15 and AK47 years ago. Now it’s just shotguns and hunting rifles.

Here’s the main reason it’s a bad idea. Number one, it’s not going to stop the madness one single bit. Number two, it’s actually a good idea for people to buy through Walmart than from another individual. I’ve bought and sold many guns from individuals. There’s a site called Armslist which is a free site like Craigslist or Gumtree for guns and ammo.

I can email or text a guy selling an AK47, Drive a half hour, give him $600 and be on my way with a semiautomatic rifle, with no background check or registry. If I buy a rifle from Walmart I have to go through a background check and show my ID. Why would you want to eliminate that option?

Have you spent as much time arguing against the unregulated sale of guns on Armslist as you have for the regulated sale of guns in supermarkets?

[DetroitHibs]

I think most people want to stop everyone selling guns, not just Walmart. Just say you like guns and don’t want to give them up.


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I’m not saying anything. Everyone isn’t going to stop selling guns, taking away an outlet that actually carries out background checks and follows through on checking IDs is a much better option than buying from an individual. You think someone that goes in to Walmart and sees they don’t have guns for sale will just go home and give up? My point has nothing to do with liking or disliking guns. I gave a valid argument which you completely ignored and like previous posts, turn it personal.

[DetroitHibs]

Have you spent as much time arguing against the unregulated sale of guns on Armslist as you have for the regulated sale of guns in supermarkets?

I have actually. I previously stated that I think rifles and long guns should go through the same background checks as buying a handgun from an individual.

[Ozyhibby]

I’m not saying anything. Everyone isn’t going to stop selling guns, taking away an outlet that actually carries out background checks and follows through on checking IDs is a much better option than buying from an individual. You think someone that goes in to Walmart and sees they don’t have guns for sale will just go home and give up? My point has nothing to do with liking or disliking guns. I gave a valid argument which you completely ignored and like previous posts, turn it personal.

If you make selling guns illegal then the person who now buys from Walmart is going to have to find a black market supplier at a much higher price. That might be enough to stop that person bothering. One less gun out there.


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[Hibernia&Alba]

With 300 million guns in the USA, it's an incredibly difficult probelm to solve. Imagine living in a country with that many guns and where a large percentage of people are comfortable with it. It's insane.

[Hibrandenburg]

With 300 million guns in the USA, it's an incredibly difficult probelm to solve. Imagine living in a country with that many guns and where a large percentage of people are comfortable with it. It's insane.

So the price of thousands of killings every year is a price worth paying?

[Hibernia&Alba]

So the price of thousands of killings every year is a price worth paying?

Absolutely not, and that wasn't the point I was making at all. I'm all in favour of our gun laws and would push for the same if I were American. However, with 300 million guns in the country, it would be very difficult to enforce, particularly as many in the States seem to equate guns with liberty, bizarrely. It's the issue, along with race, which is the fault line in American society. Taking on the gun lobby and the gun owners would come at a huge cost, perhaps even costing lives. Anyone who tackles the issue seriously needs to be prepared for all of hell being unleashed upon them.

[Alex Trager]

There is no overnight solution to the problem. The shooting last week in California has some of the strictest gun laws. The person illegally bought the weapon out of state, along with the ammo, then committed a federal crime crossing state lines with an illegal weapon. California just put a law that states citizens have to go through a background search just to buy ammo. Frankly these laws are a waste of time and money as they criminals don’t adhere to them and never will.

Guns play a huge role in these mass shootings, but it’s not the only factor. I’ve taken a keen interest in these events as I have a family here and quite frankly is terrifying. So these are my thoughts. Something has changed in society within the past 30-40 years in America. There’s always been gun violence, but not the level of senseless mass shootings we see today. The gun laws today compared to back then have gotten stricter, back then fully automatic weapons were readily available.

Let’s start with the guns. I think all rifles should go through the same background checks and registration as buying a pistol nationwide. I also think medication plays a huge part. If a person is on antidepressants or the likes, they shouldn’t be able to buy a gun.

Which brings me to my second point. Prescription drugs. I think they are also playing a part in these mass shootings. Growing up I didn’t know kids with ADHD and all that crap. It was called hyperactive. So many kids in the US are put on prescription drugs like Adderall and Dexedrine. Studies have shown a link to these drugs and mass shootings. What you won’t here is this being reported in the MSM though. The big pharma trillion dollar printing press won’t have that.

My next point is the internet and social media. I think since the invention of the internet we have lost touch with humanity. Kids growing up all text, snap chat and are consumed with there phone. Back in the day we met each other, talked on the phone, even wrote letters. There was much more human interaction with each other. We are losing that more and more, which could be affecting people’s value of life. Also the internet has given a platform for like minded sick individuals to share ideas and hide behind a keyboard, something that wasn’t available back in the day. These individuals feed off each other.

Then we have video game violence. I don’t tie much in to this, but can definitely play a part. You have kids playing almost real life shoot em ups with head sets talking to each other. It’s pretty darn close to the real thing. I think once tied In to everything else, it may play a part combined with prescription drugs and loss of reality.

Gun violence has gone down since the 80 and 90s, but mass shootings have risen. I think a lot of things need to change, not just the guns. Humanity as a whole has to start taking responsibility. How many kids do you see being baby sat with an iPad or in front of the TV. Wasn’t the case when I was a youngsters. If I wasn’t out playing with friends all summer holiday, my parents were interacting with me.

I listened to Bernie Sanders on a podcast last week.
He spoke about, what I presume is, the pressing issues over the states.

To me, it is an utterly repugnant place built solely to make money and money rules the roost.

When money means more than people we are at a bad point of civilisation.

But that’s just a general point on the US, although I imagine it can be attributed to the gun argument - too much money made.

You can level this at the UK as well but I am not of the opinion it is anywhere near as bad over here as it is there.

It’s repulsive.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I'm about to start a book on the Hungerford massacre of 1987. Who remembers that? I was just a kid at the time and we were on holiday - it was August. I remember my dad getting a newspaper and reading about it, totally shocked. Nothing like that had happened in the UK. The gun laws were tightened afterwards and then again after Dunblane. It's a very different story in America of course: platitudes are spoken and trivial things like computer games are blamed, yet gun control never happens.

[Ozyhibby]

Not everyone here like our gun laws either.
https://ncc-1776.org/tle2010/tle558-20100221-07.html



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[DetroitHibs]

If you make selling guns illegal then the person who now buys from Walmart is going to have to find a black market supplier at a much higher price. That might be enough to stop that person bothering. One less gun out there.


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Again your missing my point and avoid it completely. I’m not talking about guns being made illegal to buy, I’m talking about the here and now. Guns aren’t going to be illegal anytime soon. A person that now can’t buy a gun at Walmart isn’t going to not buy a gun. And buying a gun on the black market isn’t as costly as you think. Chicago has a SERIOUS problem with gun and gang violence and almost all of the guns are illegally purchased or stolen guns.

[Hibrandenburg]

Again your missing my point and avoid it completely. I’m not talking about guns being made illegal to buy, I’m talking about the here and now. Guns aren’t going to be illegal anytime soon. A person that now can’t buy a gun at Walmart isn’t going to not buy a gun. And buying a gun on the black market isn’t as costly as you think. Chicago has a SERIOUS problem with gun and gang violence and almost all of the guns are illegally purchased or stolen guns.

As long as the factory conveyer belt keeps churning out guns for the gun hungry, then guns will be cheap and easily available. Turn of the tap, drain the pond and guns will become a luxury that most can't afford and eventually, maybe decades from now, they will become something irrelevant that granddad used to have. There's no instant fix but with the right legislation it would have long term success.

[lord bunberry]

I watched Fahrenheit 11/9 the other night and it said that 78% of Americans don’t own a gun. That must leave a staggering amount of firepower in the hands of those that do and kind of makes the claims that making guns illegal would be impossible simply not true. Are 22% of Americans dictating policy to the other 78%?

[DetroitHibs]

I watched Fahrenheit 11/9 the other night and it said that 78% of Americans don’t own a gun. That must leave a staggering amount of firepower in the hands of those that do and kind of makes the claims that making guns illegal would be impossible simply not true. Are 22% of Americans dictating policy to the other 78%?

These polls are always so skewed and never accurate. When you Google it, you see numbers like 43% own guns and other numbers like 22%. If someone asks me if I have a gun in the house I’m telling them it’s none of there business or saying no. I’ve sold handguns to lawyers, doctors and even a priest. That’s no lie. Also bought a gun from a cop. Every transaction legal and registered. You’d be surprised at the fast number and kind of people that own guns. Not all redneck hillbillies like they’d have you believe.

[calumhibee1]

As long as the factory conveyer belt keeps churning out guns for the gun hungry, then guns will be cheap and easily available. Turn of the tap, drain the pond and guns will become a luxury that most can't afford and eventually, maybe decades from now, they will become something irrelevant that granddad used to have. There's no instant fix but with the right legislation it would have long term success.

This is the part of the debate that I can’t see how people can deny. If you make guns illegal, if you make them more difficult to come by, if you make producing them in huge numbers illegal then it will improve things. There’s no way that can be argued.

The vast majority of people in America won’t want to break the law, especially something like firearms possession if it’s illegal. There would be stacks of guns given up initially and the numbers would keep on going down as time goes on. Not a quick fix, but long term it would make a huge diffference.

[Fife-Hibee]

:rolleyes:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/police-fired-upon-philadelphia-they-respond-shooting-incident-n1042436

[Moulin Yarns]

an interesting article looking at guns in different countries


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41488081 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41488081)

[Moulin Yarns]

Call for gun controls from Philadelphia

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49361187

[theonlywayisup]

At least seven people were killed after a gunman went on a shooting rampage in west Texas on Saturday. Police say the mass shooting, the second in the state in August, began when they stopped a car between the cities of Midland and Odessa. The gunman shot at least 20 people, including motorists and passers-by. At one point, he abandoned his car and stole a US postal vehicle. Police eventually shot dead the man, who has not been named, near a cinema.


The motive of the gunman, who was white and in his mid-30s, remains unclear.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49540160