Tide turning against the US National Rifles Association

[BroxburnHibee]

https://twitter.com/_SJPeace_/status/1168012749391056897?s=19

[Moulin Yarns]

A small move, but in the right direction

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49572760

[DetroitHibs]

What no mention of all the shootings going on in London. Mass shooting in a Brixton takeaway, guys using pump action shotguns in busy streets.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/three-injured-after-gunman-opens-fire-at-brixton-takeaway-joint-a4229606.html

[theonlywayisup]

What no mention of all the shootings going on in London. Mass shooting in a Brixton takeaway, guys using pump action shotguns in busy streets.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/three-injured-after-gunman-opens-fire-at-brixton-takeaway-joint-a4229606.html

That's pretty frightening to have to watch.

Thankfully, these events in the UK are very few and there are considerably less fatalities.

[Ozyhibby]

What no mention of all the shootings going on in London. Mass shooting in a Brixton takeaway, guys using pump action shotguns in busy streets.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/three-injured-after-gunman-opens-fire-at-brixton-takeaway-joint-a4229606.html

The man was carrying a hand gun and there were no fatalities? You know why he was carrying a hand gun? It’s because we have gun control and AR-15’s a very hard to get hold off. A better argument for gun control you could not have made.


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[McD]

What no mention of all the shootings going on in London. Mass shooting in a Brixton takeaway, guys using pump action shotguns in busy streets.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/three-injured-after-gunman-opens-fire-at-brixton-takeaway-joint-a4229606.html


The man was carrying a hand gun and there were no fatalities? You know why he was carrying a hand gun? It’s because we have gun control and AR-15’s a very hard to get hold off. A better argument for gun control you could not have made.


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Also, if we’re looking for accuracy, it wasn’t on a busy street, or a street at all. We can’t even say if the street outside was busy or empty.

Can I also ask, what do you mean by ‘all the shootings going on in london’? You’ve given one example. Or did you mean that one example is all the shootings?

[DetroitHibs]

Also, if we’re looking for accuracy, it wasn’t on a busy street, or a street at all. We can’t even say if the street outside was busy or empty.

Can I also ask, what do you mean by ‘all the shootings going on in london’? You’ve given one example. Or did you mean that one example is all the shootings?

Go Google London gun crimes if you want multiple examples. It’s an example of criminals don’t give a monkeys wether guns are illegal or not. Same with blades, they don’t care. They will still carry them and stab people. This article from 2017 shows gun crime was up 42%. 2544 gun crimes between 2016-2017 in a country where guns are banned. Banning guns in the UK solved nothing. I’ll wait for the usual, there’s never been a school shooting since argument. That’s cuz no mental case decided he or she wanted to do so. It could EASILY be done if some maniac wanted to.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-39578500

[Ozyhibby]

Go Google London gun crimes if you want multiple examples. It’s an example of criminals don’t give a monkeys wether guns are illegal or not. Same with blades, they don’t care. They will still carry them and stab people. This article from 2017 shows gun crime was up 42%. 2544 gun crimes between 2016-2017 in a country where guns are banned. Banning guns in the UK solved nothing. I’ll wait for the usual, there’s never been a school shooting since argument. That’s cuz no mental case decided he or she wanted to do so. It could EASILY be done if some maniac wanted to.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-39578500

It could easily be done?
You say banning guns solve nothing but also say there were only 2544 gun crime in uk? There were about 40,000 such incidents and 10,000 deaths in America in the same year. Looks like our gun control really helped, don’t you think? Better to have 2544 than 40,000 surely?


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[DetroitHibs]

It could easily be done?
You say banning guns solve nothing but also say there were only 2544 gun crime in uk? There were about 40,000 such incidents and 10,000 deaths in America in the same year. Looks like our gun control really helped, don’t you think? Better to have 2544 than 40,000 surely?


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London has a population of 8 million and guns are banned. The United States has a population of 327 million and guns are legal. The number would be over 100,000 if London had the same population as America. The gun ban in the UK has changed NOTHING statistically.

[lapsedhibee]

Go Google London gun crimes if you want multiple examples. It’s an example of criminals don’t give a monkeys wether guns are illegal or not. Same with blades, they don’t care. They will still carry them and stab people. This article from 2017 shows gun crime was up 42%. 2544 gun crimes between 2016-2017 in a country where guns are banned. Banning guns in the UK solved nothing. I’ll wait for the usual, there’s never been a school shooting since argument. That’s cuz no mental case decided he or she wanted to do so. It could EASILY be done if some maniac wanted to.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-39578500

If your argument is that mass shootings are caused by maniacs rather than gun laws, can you also say why there are so many maniacs in the US compared to elsewhere?

[DetroitHibs]

If your argument is that mass shootings are caused by maniacs rather than gun laws, can you also say why there are so many maniacs in the US compared to elsewhere?

It’s a good question. I think Americans have less value for life than countries like the UK. Just look at the vast serial killers and people like Charlie Manson and the crazy cults. It’s a completely different mindset and culture to the UK.

Rewind 40-50 years ago. Kids in the US actually took guns to school and had them in there lockers. They’d go hunting in the morning and it was the norm. Gun laws back them were far less restrictive and Fully automatic weapons were ten a penny and legal. The guns haven’t changed, laws have become stricter, yet these mass shootings are on the rise, why? I can’t see how this is not a society issue. I don’t for one split second believe banning guns, ammo or magazines would stop these senseless killings.

What you don’t hear in the media about the Walmart shooting, was how the gun was obtained. It was built from parts and illegally sold. These AR15s are a breeze to put together.

I want to find the why, not the how(guns) What’s making these young white males do these acts. Here’s where I’d start.

Every mass shooting I’d analyze every single shooter in detail. I’d study medical records from birth, go thru hard drives with a fine tooth comb, social media, movies, video games, family ties with guns, parents outlooks and influence. Then I’d cross reference every single one. That’s just the start.

We’ve seen mass shootings on the rise in America. In the UK knife violence is heavily on the rise. Banning knives hasn’t stopped or even slowed it down. It’s not the knife, it’s a society issue.

We should look at countries with low rates of crime and see what they are doing differently. Kids today are exposed to way more than I ever was. They are desensitized to death and violence, it’s at there fingertips. Discipline is non existent. It’s gone from the home and in the classroom. So many things factor in to the problem, but nobody actually wants to get to the real reason this is happening. Banning this or that is a complete cop out and won’t solve the issue.

[Ozyhibby]

London has a population of 8 million and guns are banned. The United States has a population of 327 million and guns are legal. The number would be over 100,000 if London had the same population as America. The gun ban in the UK has changed NOTHING statistically.

Haha, I looked up your stat and it’s for crimes where a gun was present even if it’s not fired where as my stats for USA are for incidents where a gun is fired.
London is in the middle of an epidemic of gang violence just now. Show me an American city with a lower murder rate than London?


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[DetroitHibs]

Haha, I looked up your stat and it’s for crimes where a gun was present even if it’s not fired where as my stats for USA are for incidents where a gun is fired.
London is in the middle of an epidemic of gang violence just now. Show me an American city with a lower murder rate than London?


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It’s hard to get any accurate figures when it comes to gun violence in London and the UK. This article while not solely on guns, gives an example of all levels off violence on the rise. Knife crimes at its highest ever. Doesn’t it not make sense to find the why rather than the how?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-47157967

[Ozyhibby]

It’s hard to get any accurate figures when it comes to gun violence in London and the UK. This article while not solely on guns, gives an example of all levels off violence on the rise. Knife crimes at its highest ever. Doesn’t it not make sense to find the why rather than the how?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-47157967

It’s on the rise but still a million miles behind American murder rates. New York is one of America most peaceful cities but it’s still miles ahead of London.


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[Sylar]

It’s a good question. I think Americans have less value for life than countries like the UK. Just look at the vast serial killers and people like Charlie Manson and the crazy cults. It’s a completely different mindset and culture to the UK.

Rewind 40-50 years ago. Kids in the US actually took guns to school and had them in there lockers. They’d go hunting in the morning and it was the norm. Gun laws back them were far less restrictive and Fully automatic weapons were ten a penny and legal. The guns haven’t changed, laws have become stricter, yet these mass shootings are on the rise, why? I can’t see how this is not a society issue. I don’t for one split second believe banning guns, ammo or magazines would stop these senseless killings.

What you don’t hear in the media about the Walmart shooting, was how the gun was obtained. It was built from parts and illegally sold. These AR15s are a breeze to put together.

I want to find the why, not the how(guns) What’s making these young white males do these acts. Here’s where I’d start.

Every mass shooting I’d analyze every single shooter in detail. I’d study medical records from birth, go thru hard drives with a fine tooth comb, social media, movies, video games, family ties with guns, parents outlooks and influence. Then I’d cross reference every single one. That’s just the start.

We’ve seen mass shootings on the rise in America. In the UK knife violence is heavily on the rise. Banning knives hasn’t stopped or even slowed it down. It’s not the knife, it’s a society issue.

We should look at countries with low rates of crime and see what they are doing differently. Kids today are exposed to way more than I ever was. They are desensitized to death and violence, it’s at there fingertips. Discipline is non existent. It’s gone from the home and in the classroom. So many things factor in to the problem, but nobody actually wants to get to the real reason this is happening. Banning this or that is a complete cop out and won’t solve the issue.

You missed Marilyn Manson - hard to take you seriously when you can't even list the NRA excuse book in its totality.

You're honestly suggesting we have a "gun problem" in the UK with a straight face? 3% of all homicides in the UK are gun-related. Compare that to the 73% in the USA. We all have access to the same social media, video games, movies, political disparity in opinions, sectarian hatred (an added factor here)...what we DON'T have access to are readily purchasable firearms that could mow down an entire Middle Eastern village in the space of time it's taken for me to type the last three words in this sentence.

"Mass shooting in Brixton" - GTFOH.

[Sergio sledge]

London has a population of 8 million and guns are banned. The United States has a population of 327 million and guns are legal. The number would be over 100,000 if London had the same population as America. The gun ban in the UK has changed NOTHING statistically.


This really angers me. You are taking two different statistics and trying to compare them to suggest that gun control in the UK hasn't worked and that restricting the availability of guns and removing large numbers of guns from circulation does nothing to reduce gun crime. I honestly cannot see how people can look at the statistics for gun violence and murder rates in the USA compared to other developed countries and draw that conclusion. It's utterly baffling.

Of course there are some societal and cultural factors to take into account, but the USA does not have a hugely different overall crime rate and violent crime rate to other countries. Where the USA is an outlier is lethal violent crime. Its rate is significantly higher than the UK and there can be no argument about that.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/08/05/743579605/how-the-u-s-compares-to-other-countries-in-deaths-from-gun-violence

4.43 firearm homicides per 100,000 people in the USA in 2017 vs 0.06 firearm homicides per 100,000 people in the UK in 2017. 73 times higher than the UK. Seventy three. :rolleyes:

I know we should be careful not to confuse correlation with causation, but some of the charts on here are pretty damning:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts

https://ibb.co/3r9vdGC
I'd particularly draw your attention to chart number 6 which clearly shows that there is a correlation between the number of guns and the number of gun deaths and generally the countries with less guns have less gun deaths. The Harvard Injury Control Research Centre has done a review of a broad range of academic studies and the general conclusion in these studies is the same, more guns = more homicides. At national level and at state level, even after controlling the data for population, urbanisation, poverty, alcohol consumption rates, unemployment rates etc. And this is the same for all ages and all genders.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/ (http://<span style="font-family: Verdana">https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/</span>)

If you make it harder for criminals and absolute nut-jobs to get guns then you make it harder for thos people to kill other people. I cannot fathom why people, who may seem normally rational and sensible, cannot understand this.

The attitude that restricting access to guns in the USA won't change anything is exactly why over 100 people are dying gun related deaths every day in the USA and anyone who perpetuates this attitude has blood on their hands IMHO. They value their right to act the big man like a cowboy with a holster on their hip over the lives of other people and they should all be ashamed of themselves.

[Ozyhibby]

This really angers me. You are taking two different statistics and trying to compare them to suggest that gun control in the UK hasn't worked and that restricting the availability of guns and removing large numbers of guns from circulation does nothing to reduce gun crime. I honestly cannot see how people can look at the statistics for gun violence and murder rates in the USA compared to other developed countries and draw that conclusion. It's utterly baffling.

Of course there are some societal and cultural factors to take into account, but the USA does not have a hugely different overall crime rate and violent crime rate to other countries. Where the USA is an outlier is lethal violent crime. Its rate is significantly higher than the UK and there can be no argument about that.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/08/05/743579605/how-the-u-s-compares-to-other-countries-in-deaths-from-gun-violence

4.43 firearm homicides per 100,000 people in the USA in 2017 vs 0.06 firearm homicides per 100,000 people in the UK in 2017. 73 times higher than the UK. Seventy three. :rolleyes:

I know we should be careful not to confuse correlation with causation, but some of the charts on here are pretty damning:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts

https://ibb.co/3r9vdGC
I'd particularly draw your attention to chart number 6 which clearly shows that there is a correlation between the number of guns and the number of gun deaths and generally the countries with less guns have less gun deaths. The Harvard Injury Control Research Centre has done a review of a broad range of academic studies and the general conclusion in these studies is the same, more guns = more homicides. At national level and at state level, even after controlling the data for population, urbanisation, poverty, alcohol consumption rates, unemployment rates etc. And this is the same for all ages and all genders.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/ (http://<span style="font-family: Verdana">https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/</span>)

If you make it harder for criminals and absolute nut-jobs to get guns then you make it harder for thos people to kill other people. I cannot fathom why people, who may seem normally rational and sensible, cannot understand this.

The attitude that restricting access to guns in the USA won't change anything is exactly why over 100 people are dying gun related deaths every day in the USA and anyone who perpetuates this attitude has blood on their hands IMHO. They value their right to act the big man like a cowboy with a holster on their hip over the lives of other people and they should all be ashamed of themselves.




Pretty sure he’s a Fox News kind of guy.[emoji23]


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[DetroitHibs]

This really angers me. You are taking two different statistics and trying to compare them to suggest that gun control in the UK hasn't worked and that restricting the availability of guns and removing large numbers of guns from circulation does nothing to reduce gun crime. I honestly cannot see how people can look at the statistics for gun violence and murder rates in the USA compared to other developed countries and draw that conclusion. It's utterly baffling.

Of course there are some societal and cultural factors to take into account, but the USA does not have a hugely different overall crime rate and violent crime rate to other countries. Where the USA is an outlier is lethal violent crime. Its rate is significantly higher than the UK and there can be no argument about that.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/08/05/743579605/how-the-u-s-compares-to-other-countries-in-deaths-from-gun-violence

4.43 firearm homicides per 100,000 people in the USA in 2017 vs 0.06 firearm homicides per 100,000 people in the UK in 2017. 73 times higher than the UK. Seventy three. :rolleyes:

I know we should be careful not to confuse correlation with causation, but some of the charts on here are pretty damning:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts

https://ibb.co/3r9vdGC
I'd particularly draw your attention to chart number 6 which clearly shows that there is a correlation between the number of guns and the number of gun deaths and generally the countries with less guns have less gun deaths. The Harvard Injury Control Research Centre has done a review of a broad range of academic studies and the general conclusion in these studies is the same, more guns = more homicides. At national level and at state level, even after controlling the data for population, urbanisation, poverty, alcohol consumption rates, unemployment rates etc. And this is the same for all ages and all genders.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/ (http://<span style=&quot;font-family: Verdana&quot;>https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/</span>)

If you make it harder for criminals and absolute nut-jobs to get guns then you make it harder for thos people to kill other people. I cannot fathom why people, who may seem normally rational and sensible, cannot understand this.

The attitude that restricting access to guns in the USA won't change anything is exactly why over 100 people are dying gun related deaths every day in the USA and anyone who perpetuates this attitude has blood on their hands IMHO. They value their right to act the big man like a cowboy with a holster on their hip over the lives of other people and they should all be ashamed of themselves.




Has the gun ban in the UK made any difference statistically?

[Lendo]

London has a population of 8 million and guns are banned. The United States has a population of 327 million and guns are legal. The number would be over 100,000 if London had the same population as America. The gun ban in the UK has changed NOTHING statistically.

Absolute LOLZ at this.

[Moulin Yarns]

Has the gun ban in the UK made any difference statistically?

I think it's better to describe it as licensed gun ownership.


This article is a couple of years ago but looks at 20 years of gun control since the only mass shooting in a school in the UK.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/firearms-act-twenty-years-on-has-it-made-a-difference-dunblane-port-arthur-a8110911.html

I live in a rural area, on a farm, and can legally get a firearms licence. I don't have because I don't want to have a lethal weapon in the house.

[Ozyhibby]

Has the gun ban in the UK made any difference statistically?

Yes, pre 1996 the UK had about 80 gun deaths a year and now it’s about 20.


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[SHODAN]

London has a population of 8 million and guns are banned. The United States has a population of 327 million and guns are legal. The number would be over 100,000 if London had the same population as America. The gun ban in the UK has changed NOTHING statistically.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/2010_homicide_suicide_rates_high-income_countries.png

Source (https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(15)01030-X/pdf)

[Lendo]

Yes, pre 1996 the UK had about 80 gun deaths a year and now it’s about 20.


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Don't you dare quote facts here. If you multiple that figure of 20 by say 10,000 or 100,0000 then it's clear to see that "statistically" the problem of gun deaths in the UK is hugely higher than in the US.

[Ozyhibby]

Don't you dare quote facts here. If you multiple that figure of 20 by say 10,000 or 100,0000 then it's clear to see that "statistically" the problem of gun deaths in the UK is hugely higher than in the US.

Keep it to yourself but I deliberately did not include all the Nerf gun incidents in the UK figures. [emoji6]


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[WeeRussell]

I know of a fair few people that handed their guns in, in Scotland, due to law changes. So it made a difference for them.

I'm not saying any of them are or were the types to commit armed homicide but in the words of Steve Earle - who are you to say for sure?

[calumhibee1]

Keep it to yourself but I deliberately did not include all the Nerf gun incidents in the UK figures. [emoji6]


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😂

[Sergio sledge]

Has the gun ban in the UK made any difference statistically?

:rolleyes:

"In the years before the act was commenced, Home Office statistics show that homicides involving firearms were 75 in 1993, the same in 1994, and 81 in 1995. Aside from spikes around the turn of the century, the subsequent years have all seen markedly lower gun-deaths recorded."

"The Gun Control Network, a campaigning body set up in the wake of Dunblane, records its own gun-death statistics based on media reports, which it says generally tally with official figures once they come out. For the past few years it has reported 20 deaths in 2014-15, 24 in 2015-16, 27 in 2016-17..."

It might not be fully attributable to the ban as there are other factors, I'm happy to acknowledge that, but a roughly 70% reduction in gun deaths in just over 20 years is pretty good going. Imagine how many lives that would save in the USA, if the number of gun related homicides (not counting suicides of which many could well be stopped if the simplest most lethal route of committing suicide is made harder) had a similar reduction then that could be up to 7,000 people per year eventually. Would you be happy to give up your right to carry a gun if it meant 7,000 more people per year get to live?

[calumhibee1]

:rolleyes:

"In the years before the act was commenced, Home Office statistics show that homicides involving firearms were 75 in 1993, the same in 1994, and 81 in 1995. Aside from spikes around the turn of the century, the subsequent years have all seen markedly lower gun-deaths recorded."

"The Gun Control Network, a campaigning body set up in the wake of Dunblane, records its own gun-death statistics based on media reports, which it says generally tally with official figures once they come out. For the past few years it has reported 20 deaths in 2014-15, 24 in 2015-16, 27 in 2016-17..."

It might not be fully attributable to the ban as there are other factors, I'm happy to acknowledge that, but a roughly 70% reduction in gun deaths in just over 20 years is pretty good going. Imagine how many lives that would save in the USA, if the number of gun related homicides (not counting suicides of which many could well be stopped if the simplest most lethal route of committing suicide is made harder) had a similar reduction then that could be up to 7,000 people per year eventually. Would you be happy to give up your right to carry a gun if it meant 7,000 more people per year get to live?

The sad thing is that the answer to your last question for most Americans is no. It might well come with a long winded logic, but it’s still no.

[McD]

I think it's better to describe it as licensed gun ownership.


This article is a couple of years ago but looks at 20 years of gun control since the only mass shooting in a school in the UK.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/firearms-act-twenty-years-on-has-it-made-a-difference-dunblane-port-arthur-a8110911.html

I live in a rural area, on a farm, and can legally get a firearms licence. I don't have because I don't want to have a lethal weapon in the house.


You used a very powerful word in this post. That word is ‘only’. The only mass shooting in a school.

That says it all

[Moulin Yarns]

You used a very powerful word in this post. That word is ‘only’. The only mass shooting in a school.

That says it all

Well spotted. The one school shooting in the UK led to much stricter gun control, how many have there been in the USA?

[SHODAN]

Don't you dare quote facts here. If you multiple that figure of 20 by say 10,000 or 100,0000 then it's clear to see that "statistically" the problem of gun deaths in the UK is hugely higher than in the US.

It's even higher if you multiply it by 1 billion! When will the madness end?

[Moulin Yarns]

And another


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50422956

(https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50422956)


More info, 2 dead, 3 injured the 16 year old shot himself in the head and is in intensive care.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50422956