What’s going on in the world

[lord bunberry]

Firstly I will admit that I’ve had a few drinks. I’m a person that constantly thinks about what is happening around me and what’s happening in the wider world. I get annoyed by the capitalist system, but I wish I was rich. I get annoyed seeing corrupt leaders in other countries betraying the people they are supposed to represent, but I don’t want our country to intervene. I hate the fact that the EPL is so rich and we live off the scraps, but I still watch it.
The only thing that gives me hope is learning about space exploration. In order for humanity to survive we need to leave our home planet.
I know I’m rambling a lot of pish here, but I just wish that people could put ridiculous preconceptions behind them and concentrate on what’s important for all of us.

[ano hibby]

I am constantly amazed by people having a drunken rant and doing so in such well punctuated, grammatically accurate and perfectly spelled sentences.

‘Mon the Musk.

He’s in the best selling show...Is there beer on Maaaarrrrssss

Stay strong my friend

[Glory Lurker]

We can’t go anywhere that might sustain us. This is it.

[Dinkydoo]

Are you sure it's just a drink you've had bunberry lord?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Smartie]

When you have to share a city with Jambos and a country with Huns, it is understandable that from time to time you wonder what the hell is happening to the human race.

I'm no doctor, but I suggest you have tomorrow night off the sauce and spend a night in with the "Time for Heroes" dvd.

Don't fire up the rocket just yet.

[Pete]

Contradictions...we’re all guilty.

Escaping to another planet is also pointless as it’s not the ground we live on that’s the problem.

You’ll notice that so many sci-if, utopian societies are based on socialist, or even what some might describe as Marxist/Leninist principles. :hmmm:

[Slavers]

Contradictions...we’re all guilty.

Escaping to another planet is also pointless as it’s not the ground we live on that’s the problem.

You’ll notice that so many sci-if, utopian societies are based on socialist, or even what some might describe as Marxist/Leninist principles. :hmmm:

Yes it's called brainwashing propaganda in the hope that the brainwashed lefties and converts will welcome such a society in the future and forget the horrors that socialism has brought to humanity.

Crony capitalism replaced by crony socialism. What could go wrong? Only the murder of millions as history has shown when society chooses/ has true socialism forced on them.

We can only pray that this wicked socialist society never allowed to happen in the western world but we definitely have a fight on our hands to stop it.

The powers that be are hell bent on introducing socialism as a way of controlling the masses and taking away freedom and liberty. That's why you see such propaganda in films.

All brainwashing you into thinking it is a utopia.

Thankfully we still have enough people who can see what's happening and will not follow this evil ideology but I have to admit it's going to be close call the next 25 / 50 years could see total control of your life given to the state and government.

[hibsbollah]

Firstly I will admit that I’ve had a few drinks. I’m a person that constantly thinks about what is happening around me and what’s happening in the wider world. I get annoyed by the capitalist system, but I wish I was rich. I get annoyed seeing corrupt leaders in other countries betraying the people they are supposed to represent, but I don’t want our country to intervene. I hate the fact that the EPL is so rich and we live off the scraps, but I still watch it.
The only thing that gives me hope is learning about space exploration. In order for humanity to survive we need to leave our home planet.
I know I’m rambling a lot of pish here, but I just wish that people could put ridiculous preconceptions behind them and concentrate on what’s important for all of us.

As I get older I get a lot more motivated by environmental political questions and a lot less by binary, left-right issues, which are often motivated by ideological habit, not belief. (The post above this is a good example).

World population was 1 billion in 1850, and was still only 1.2 billion in 1900. In 2018 we are at 7 billion and we'll be at 10 billion by 2080. You need to look at these numbers for a second or two to realise how mind-boggling massive this change is. Its inconceivable we will have sufficient clean water, clean air and food by then without some kind of global rethink about how we live as a species.

Replacing global capitalism, with its emphasis on the profit motive above all else, with some kind of alternative will be a vital step at some point in time if we're going to survive, but you can't just 'replace' a political-economic reality unless you address selfishness as a behaviour. Soviet Russia wasnt motivated by the capitalist system but still managed to contribute towards ****ing up the planet. Thinking as a species, not as nationalities, is the future.
But there's never been a time in the last hundred years when global government has been so deeply unfashionable. We seem to be splintering off into more and more subgroups, distrustful of each other. Trump is only the most recent manifestation of this. The UN is set up to fail since league of nations days.


Blasting off into space is a great notion, and I used to greedily chew up all those comics and utopian Sci films when I was a kid as well :greengrin but logistically it's years off, and the numbers required to make a difference to over population make it unrealistic without an unimaginable technological leap. How can you move five billion people off a planet? Leaving aside the most basic question of where to go!

It's an uncomfortable thought that what might be best for life in Earth in a collective sense is a massive pandemic/natural disaster/world war/other cataclysm that addresses the world population crisis.

And the population is only one issue facing the planet. Global warming, food supplies, water, inequality, religious conflict, racial hatred, it all feels very intractable and I guess can only be solved in the long term by consigning the notion of 'nationalities' and flags to the bin and doing things on a global basis. You need to take people's inherent psychological need to belong to a tribe along with you and incorporate that into the solution you come up with.

A great question.

[Slavers]

As I get older I get a lot more motivated by environmental political questions and a lot less by binary, left-right issues, which are often motivated by ideological habit, not belief. (The post above this is a good example).

World population was 1 billion in 1850, and was still only 1.2 billion in 1900. In 2018 we are at 7 billion and we'll be at 10 billion by 2080. You need to look at these numbers for a second or two to realise how mind-boggling massive this change is. Its inconceivable we will have sufficient clean water, clean air and food by then without some kind of global rethink about how we live as a species.

Replacing global capitalism, with its emphasis on the profit motive above all else, with some kind of alternative will be a vital step at some point in time if we're going to survive, but you can't just 'replace' a political-economic reality unless you address selfishness as a behaviour. Soviet Russia wasnt motivated by the capitalist system but still managed to contribute towards ****ing up the planet. Thinking as a species, not as nationalities, is the future.
But there's never been a time in the last hundred years when global government has been so deeply unfashionable. We seem to be splintering off into more and more subgroups, distrustful of each other. Trump is only the most recent manifestation of this. The UN is set up to fail since league of nations days.


Blasting off into space is a great notion, and I used to greedily chew up all those comics and utopian Sci films when I was a kid as well :greengrin but logistically it's years off, and the numbers required to make a difference to over population make it unrealistic without an unimaginable technological leap. How can you move five billion people off a planet? Leaving aside the most basic question of where to go!

It's an uncomfortable thought that what might be best for life in Earth in a collective sense is a massive pandemic/natural disaster/world war/other cataclysm that addresses the world population crisis.

And the population is only one issue facing the planet. Global warming, food supplies, water, inequality, religious conflict, racial hatred, it all feels very intractable and I guess can only be solved in the long term by consigning the notion of 'nationalities' and flags to the bin and doing things on a global basis. You need to take people's inherent psychological need to belong to a tribe along with you and incorporate that into the solution you come up with.

A great question.

Population reduction hmmmm where have I heard that before. Maybe you would prefer a full blown nuclear war just to help your utopian world come to fruition.

Sounds like your lost in your ideology and even contemplating wiping out millions of people to suit your agenda. Stalin would be proud of you.

It's lack of population that's the problem in the future with such low birth rates in the western world.

[hibsbollah]

Population reduction hmmmm where have I heard that before. Maybe you would prefer a full blown nuclear war just to help your utopian world come to fruition.

Sounds like your lost in your ideology and even contemplating wiping out millions of people to suit your agenda. Stalin would be proud of you.

It's lack of population that's the problem in the future with such low birth rates in the western world.

That's a bit of a silly response.

[Slavers]

That's a bit of a silly response.

And hoping for natural disasters or wiping out human populatiuon is sensible? Your lost and potentially brainwashed by the things your reading from what I can tell.

[hibsbollah]

And hoping for natural disasters or wiping out human populatiuon is sensible? Your lost and potentially brainwashed by the things your reading from what I can tell.

I obviously didn't say that, and your trolling is boring. Your luciferian stuff is far more entertaining.

[Hibbyradge]

Population reduction hmmmm where have I heard that before. Maybe you would prefer a full blown nuclear war just to help your utopian world come to fruition.

Sounds like your lost in your ideology and even contemplating wiping out millions of people to suit your agenda. Stalin would be proud of you.

It's lack of population that's the problem in the future with such low birth rates in the western world.

Good lord.

[Hibbyradge]

I obviously didn't say that, and your trolling is boring. Your luciferian stuff is far more entertaining.

Indeed. The poster is incapable of having a rational conversation.

[lord bunberry]

As I get older I get a lot more motivated by environmental political questions and a lot less by binary, left-right issues, which are often motivated by ideological habit, not belief. (The post above this is a good example).

World population was 1 billion in 1850, and was still only 1.2 billion in 1900. In 2018 we are at 7 billion and we'll be at 10 billion by 2080. You need to look at these numbers for a second or two to realise how mind-boggling massive this change is. Its inconceivable we will have sufficient clean water, clean air and food by then without some kind of global rethink about how we live as a species.

Replacing global capitalism, with its emphasis on the profit motive above all else, with some kind of alternative will be a vital step at some point in time if we're going to survive, but you can't just 'replace' a political-economic reality unless you address selfishness as a behaviour. Soviet Russia wasnt motivated by the capitalist system but still managed to contribute towards ****ing up the planet. Thinking as a species, not as nationalities, is the future.
But there's never been a time in the last hundred years when global government has been so deeply unfashionable. We seem to be splintering off into more and more subgroups, distrustful of each other. Trump is only the most recent manifestation of this. The UN is set up to fail since league of nations days.


Blasting off into space is a great notion, and I used to greedily chew up all those comics and utopian Sci films when I was a kid as well :greengrin but logistically it's years off, and the numbers required to make a difference to over population make it unrealistic without an unimaginable technological leap. How can you move five billion people off a planet? Leaving aside the most basic question of where to go!

It's an uncomfortable thought that what might be best for life in Earth in a collective sense is a massive pandemic/natural disaster/world war/other cataclysm that addresses the world population crisis.

And the population is only one issue facing the planet. Global warming, food supplies, water, inequality, religious conflict, racial hatred, it all feels very intractable and I guess can only be solved in the long term by consigning the notion of 'nationalities' and flags to the bin and doing things on a global basis. You need to take people's inherent psychological need to belong to a tribe along with you and incorporate that into the solution you come up with.

A great question.
I agree with a lot of that. If we could start again as a species, we would do almost everything differently. We waste a huge percentage of our time and resources on things that make each other’s lives worse. We have the intelligence as a species to make our world a fantastic place for everyone, but instead we have let self interest take control of our lives. When I look at politicians speaking on tv it makes me so angry that these people have no interest in anything other than getting them and their party re-elected . You see leaders the world over spending trillions on weapons, imagine what would happen if that money was spent on technology that made things better.
One day there will be a mass extinction event like an asteroid strike or one of the countless other possible events that will leave this planet almost uninhabitable. I’d like to think that when that day comes we will be ready for it, but I fear we will still be too busy squabbling amongst ourselves to even notice until it’s too late.

[lord bunberry]

Are you sure it's just a drink you've had bunberry lord?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
:greengrin It was. I kicked off with the red wine again, it’s something that never ends well.

[sleeping giant]

I had to contemplate the future of the human race last week when I asked my boy what he wanted for his birthday.

"A Gucci belt " was his answer :rolleyes:

Now there is a reason for population control right there.

[Dinkydoo]

:greengrin It was. I kicked off with the red wine again, it’s something that never ends well.Red wine in the house is great. Red wine if you're out, catastrophic.

It's a lesson I've learned before and a mistake I'll likely make again.

I might contribute to the thread later but as of right now, I have a rioja head on the go. So I'm off for a walk into town to try to clear it a bit!

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Pete]

Scarily enough, I was drinking red wine too last night. A lot of it.

Is this an evil communist plot that’s been stumbled upon?

[lord bunberry]

Scarily enough, I was drinking red wine too last night. A lot of it.

Is this an evil communist plot that’s been stumbled upon?
We’ll keep the red wine flowing high.....:greengrin

[snooky]

Yes it's called brainwashing propaganda in the hope that the brainwashed lefties and converts will welcome such a society in the future and forget the horrors that socialism has brought to humanity.

Crony capitalism replaced by crony socialism. What could go wrong? Only the murder of millions as history has shown when society chooses/ has true socialism forced on them.

We can only pray that this wicked socialist society never allowed to happen in the western world but we definitely have a fight on our hands to stop it.

The powers that be are hell bent on introducing socialism as a way of controlling the masses and taking away freedom and liberty. That's why you see such propaganda in films.

All brainwashing you into thinking it is a utopia.

Thankfully we still have enough people who can see what's happening and will not follow this evil ideology but I have to admit it's going to be close call the next 25 / 50 years could see total control of your life given to the state and government.

I'm afraid it's happening all the time whether right or left is in power. Neither of them work for the good of mankind as a whole.

[McD]

Yes it's called brainwashing propaganda in the hope that the brainwashed lefties and converts will welcome such a society in the future and forget the horrors that socialism has brought to humanity.

Crony capitalism replaced by crony socialism. What could go wrong? Only the murder of millions as history has shown when society chooses/ has true socialism forced on them.

We can only pray that this wicked socialist society never allowed to happen in the western world but we definitely have a fight on our hands to stop it.

The powers that be are hell bent on introducing socialism as a way of controlling the masses and taking away freedom and liberty. That's why you see such propaganda in films.

All brainwashing you into thinking it is a utopia.

Thankfully we still have enough people who can see what's happening and will not follow this evil ideology but I have to admit it's going to be close call the next 25 / 50 years could see total control of your life given to the state and government.


Population reduction hmmmm where have I heard that before. Maybe you would prefer a full blown nuclear war just to help your utopian world come to fruition.

Sounds like your lost in your ideology and even contemplating wiping out millions of people to suit your agenda. Stalin would be proud of you.

It's lack of population that's the problem in the future with such low birth rates in the western world.


And hoping for natural disasters or wiping out human populatiuon is sensible? Your lost and potentially brainwashed by the things your reading from what I can tell.



Do you hear yourself when when you speak?


As it happens, your last 2 quotes above are either trolling or complete paranoia as HibsBollah said nothing of the sort

[BroxburnHibee]

Firstly I will admit that I’ve had a few drinks. I’m a person that constantly thinks about what is happening around me and what’s happening in the wider world. I get annoyed by the capitalist system, but I wish I was rich. I get annoyed seeing corrupt leaders in other countries betraying the people they are supposed to represent, but I don’t want our country to intervene. I hate the fact that the EPL is so rich and we live off the scraps, but I still watch it.
The only thing that gives me hope is learning about space exploration. In order for humanity to survive we need to leave our home planet.
I know I’m rambling a lot of pish here, but I just wish that people could put ridiculous preconceptions behind them and concentrate on what’s important for all of us.

I take it the cabs off the road. :greengrin

[lord bunberry]

I take it the cabs off the road. :greengrin
Sold up mate. I need to either get a job or get back to the taxis :greengrin

[snooky]

Sold up mate. I need to either get a job or get back to the taxis :greengrin

"Taxi for Lord Bunberry!" :taxi

:greengrin

[BroxburnHibee]

Sold up mate. I need to either get a job or get back to the taxis :greengrin

Stir crazy week for me. Back on it tonight

[Pretty Boy]

I was at church earlier this evening. The Gospel story was of Jesus casting those selling animals for sacrifice and money changers from the Temple. The story isn’t particularly important but the Priests homily was, as it usually is, interesting. He pointed out the story was showing Jesus not as meek and mild as is often the portrayal but as an angry and passionate human being. He went on to say that anger can be a positive emotion particularly when aimed at injustice. He concluded by saying Lent was a time to think about what makes us angry and how we can challenge it but that we must have an open ear and listen to what others, even those we are angry with, say back otherwise we come across as pious and self righteous.

Now I know there could be a million pages written about the hypocrisy of a Catholic Priest warning against against preaching and not listening to counter argument but in a political sense I think there is a valid message there. I often find the left adopts an attitude of knowing what is best for those they claim to seek to help rather than listening to what help they actually want and need. Trump wasn’t carried into power solely on the shoulders of rich elites, it was rust belt USA that was a huge part of his core vote. Brexit may have been the baby of the likes of Gove and Johnson but it’s popularity was greatest in some of our most deprived areas. The reaction of many on the left to these events, and others, was not to engage with these people and try to understand their reasons, concerns and desires but rather to scoff at them as stupid, share videos of ‘idiots’ making erroneous statements, throw accusations of racism about like confetti and preach to the fools about how much worse their life would become because of their own stupidity.

I think it’s something we all have in us. We become so blinded by our own views and beliefs, so consumed by what we think is best we often forget to listen to what other people are saying. Recent history has shown that engaging with and motivating what should be your core vote is the road to success, it’s hopefully a lesson that those angry about injustice across the world learn and they begin to do less preaching and more listening.

[McD]

I was at church earlier this evening. The Gospel story was of Jesus casting those selling animals for sacrifice and money changers from the Temple. The story isn’t particularly important but the Priests homily was, as it usually is, interesting. He pointed out the story was showing Jesus not as meek and mild as is often the portrayal but as an angry and passionate human being. He went on to say that anger can be a positive emotion particularly when aimed at injustice. He concluded by saying Lent was a time to think about what makes us angry and how we can challenge it but that we must have an open ear and listen to what others, even those we are angry with, say back otherwise we come across as pious and self righteous.

Now I know there could be a million pages written about the hypocrisy of a Catholic Priest warning against against preaching and not listening to counter argument but in a political sense I think there is a valid message there. I often find the left adopts an attitude of knowing what is best for those they claim to seek to help rather than listening to what help they actually want and need. Trump wasn’t carried into power solely on the shoulders of rich elites, it was rust belt USA that was a huge part of his core vote. Brexit may have been the baby of the likes of Gove and Johnson but it’s popularity was greatest in some of our most deprived areas. The reaction of many on the left to these events, and others, was not to engage with these people and try to understand their reasons, concerns and desires but rather to scoff at them as stupid, share videos of ‘idiots’ making erroneous statements, throw accusations of racism about like confetti and preach to the fools about how much worse their life would become because of their own stupidity.

I think it’s something we all have in us. We become so blinded by our own views and beliefs, so consumed by what we think is best we often forget to listen to what other people are saying. Recent history has shown that engaging with and motivating what should be your core vote is the road to success, it’s hopefully a lesson that those angry about injustice across the world learn and they begin to do less preaching and more listening.



What a fantastic and thought provoking post :top marks

[stu in nottingham]

I was at church earlier this evening. The Gospel story was of Jesus casting those selling animals for sacrifice and money changers from the Temple. The story isn’t particularly important but the Priests homily was, as it usually is, interesting. He pointed out the story was showing Jesus not as meek and mild as is often the portrayal but as an angry and passionate human being. He went on to say that anger can be a positive emotion particularly when aimed at injustice. He concluded by saying Lent was a time to think about what makes us angry and how we can challenge it but that we must have an open ear and listen to what others, even those we are angry with, say back otherwise we come across as pious and self righteous.

Now I know there could be a million pages written about the hypocrisy of a Catholic Priest warning against against preaching and not listening to counter argument but in a political sense I think there is a valid message there. I often find the left adopts an attitude of knowing what is best for those they claim to seek to help rather than listening to what help they actually want and need. Trump wasn’t carried into power solely on the shoulders of rich elites, it was rust belt USA that was a huge part of his core vote. Brexit may have been the baby of the likes of Gove and Johnson but it’s popularity was greatest in some of our most deprived areas. The reaction of many on the left to these events, and others, was not to engage with these people and try to understand their reasons, concerns and desires but rather to scoff at them as stupid, share videos of ‘idiots’ making erroneous statements, throw accusations of racism about like confetti and preach to the fools about how much worse their life would become because of their own stupidity.

I think it’s something we all have in us. We become so blinded by our own views and beliefs, so consumed by what we think is best we often forget to listen to what other people are saying. Recent history has shown that engaging with and motivating what should be your core vote is the road to success, it’s hopefully a lesson that those angry about injustice across the world learn and they begin to do less preaching and more listening.


What a fantastic and thought provoking post :top marks

Agreed, and one of many I may say.

[lapsedhibee]

The reaction of many on the left to these events, and others, was not to engage with these people and try to understand their reasons, concerns and desires but rather to scoff at them as stupid, share videos of ‘idiots’ making erroneous statements, throw accusations of racism about like confetti and preach to the fools about how much worse their life would become because of their own stupidity.

Agree that this has happened, but what if you do the listening, and do the engaging, and at the end conclude that the people you've listened to and engaged with are stupid and racists? What then? :confused:

[Pretty Boy]

Agree that this has happened, but what if you do the listening, and do the engaging, and at the end conclude that the people you've listened to and engaged with are stupid and racists? What then? :confused:

There’s always going to be racists and stupid people.

I’ve often found an almost nasty self congratulatory intellectual and moral superiority amongst some on the left. ‘Oh it’s just so much harder to be left wing, you really have to think about it and educate yourself above your instincts’ or the chant in unison when presented with an argument they don’t like ‘you just don’t understand’.

I think the left has to consider that over the last decade, and arguably considerably longer, areas in the UK, and other western countries, that have seen traditional industries disappear, have seen communities and community spirit decimated, have seen almost a million people people forced to work on zero hours contracts and so on have turned to the likes of Johnson and Farage rather than to them. It must be cause for concern that Eton FPs and a former city worker appear to be able to speak to the ‘working class’ and appear more accessible to them than many on the left do.

I’ve told the story before but many years ago I was involved in the Socialist Society at Aberdeen Uni. I expected a real community spirit and a work ethic. What I encountered were a group of people who formed committees and working groups that reported back about nothing, sat about theorising on how they could put the world to rights, occassionally attended a protest about Palestine or tuition fees and dismissed criticism with a tirade of theoretical bollocks they had read. The final straw was when I approached a few people about helping a local community charity who worked with ex child offenders and needed people to take them on day trips and so on. They refused because ‘helping charities legitimised a system in which charities have to exist’. Meanwhile the buffoons in the Conservative Society who these people loved to tear strips off were out working with a local group that offered a drop in service for parents of disabled children, many were involved in the Scout Association and they regularly supported the work of other local charities through fundraising.

The lefties were so wrapped up in their own moral superiority and big plans that they were wilfully ignoring people in need right in front of their eyes. The wider failure of the left in the UK for decades now is an expanded version of a local problem I encountered imo.

[hibsbollah]

There’s always going to be racists and stupid people.

I’ve often found an almost nasty self congratulatory intellectual and moral superiority amongst some on the left. ‘Oh it’s just so much harder to be left wing, you really have to think about it and educate yourself above your instincts’ or the chant in unison when presented with an argument they don’t like ‘you just don’t understand’.

I think the left has to consider that over the last decade, and arguably considerably longer, areas in the UK, and other western countries, that have seen traditional industries disappear, have seen communities and community spirit decimated, have seen almost a million people people forced to work on zero hours contracts and so on have turned to the likes of Johnson and Farage rather than to them. It must be cause for concern that Eton FPs and a former city worker appear to be able to speak to the ‘working class’ and appear more accessible to them than many on the left do.

I’ve told the story before but many years ago I was involved in the Socialist Society at Aberdeen Uni. I expected a real community spirit and a work ethic. What I encountered were a group of people who formed committees and working groups that reported back about nothing, sat about theorising on how they could put the world to rights, occassionally attended a protest about Palestine or tuition fees and dismissed criticism with a tirade of theoretical bollocks they had read. The final straw was when I approached a few people about helping a local community charity who worked with ex child offenders and needed people to take them on day trips and so on. They refused because ‘helping charities legitimised a system in which charities have to exist’. Meanwhile the buffoons in the Conservative Society who these people loved to tear strips off were out working with a local group that offered a drop in service for parents of disabled children, many were involved in the Scout Association and they regularly supported the work of other local charities through fundraising.

The lefties were so wrapped up in their own moral superiority and big plans that they were wilfully ignoring people in need right in front of their eyes. The wider failure of the left in the UK for decades now is an expanded version of a local problem I encountered imo.

I think your critique is a critique of pomposity in general. There are pompous people everywhere, on the right and the left, I doubt Aberdeen Uni Socialists are immune from it :greengrin. I'd suggest 'the left' are doing better now than at any time in my memory, and UKIP and Farage are electorally speaking an irrelevance, which doesn't really support your argument. Personally, as long as someone is genuinely willing to roll up their sleeves and do something to contribute to society, whether they call themselves left or right, or whatever, they share the same values as me. A lot of these traditional binary labels don't serve any purpose anymore.

On the other hand, there are some areas where politically, I wouldn't compromise, like free health care for everyone. I'm not willing to spend my time being polite and trying to 'understand' and 'listen to another point of view' to people who want to sell off the NHS to US hedge funds, like, let's see, most of the Tory cabinet, who are doing so for their own financial interests. I will argue against these people and I won't shy away from telling them they're morally wrong, whether they like it or not, regardless of education, social class or whatever.

[johnbc70]

I think your critique is a critique of pomposity in general. There are pompous people everywhere, on the right and the left, I doubt Aberdeen Uni Socialists are immune from it :greengrin. I'd suggest 'the left' are doing better now than at any time in my memory, and UKIP and Farage are electorally speaking an irrelevance, which doesn't really support your argument. Personally, as long as someone is genuinely willing to roll up their sleeves and do something to contribute to society, whether they call themselves left or right, or whatever, they share the same values as me. A lot of these traditional binary labels don't serve any purpose anymore.

On the other hand, there are some areas where politically, I wouldn't compromise, like free health care for everyone. I'm not willing to spend my time being polite and trying to 'understand' and 'listen to another point of view' to people who want to sell off the NHS to US hedge funds, like, let's see, most of the Tory cabinet, who are doing so for their own financial interests. I will argue against these people and I won't shy away from telling them they're morally wrong, whether they like it or not, regardless of education, social class or whatever.

How are the Tory cabinet going to have personal financial gain from selling the NHS to a US Hedge fund? Maybe they will but interested to find out why you think that, let's say Claire Perry MP for starters, how will she financially gain?

[hibsbollah]

How are the Tory cabinet going to have personal financial gain from selling the NHS to a US Hedge fund? Maybe they will but interested to find out why you think that, let's say Claire Perry MP for starters, how will she financially gain?

There's 71 tory MPs including a number of cabinet ministers who have links, either in the form of owning shares or being on the boards of, private health care providers.

[snooky]

There's 71 tory MPs including a number of cabinet ministers who have links, either in the form of owning shares or being on the boards of, private health care providers.

Surely we can trust them not to let that influence their Parliamentary decisions.
:rolleyes:

[johnbc70]

There's 71 tory MPs including a number of cabinet ministers who have links, either in the form of owning shares or being on the boards of, private health care providers.

So is it most of the cabinet as you said or not? How many of the cabinet are on the boards of a private health company?

Everyone that has a pension will likely own shares in some kind of private health care company, direct or indirectly. Should that be banned?

[hibsbollah]

So is it most of the cabinet as you said or not? How many of the cabinet are on the boards of a private health company?

Everyone that has a pension will likely own shares in some kind of private health care company, direct or indirectly. Should that be banned?

Google if it you're interested. There's a lot of conflict of interest in relation to the NHS reforms. You and I may have a pension who's valuation is influenced by fluctuations in the share price of virgin health care. That's very different from being a cabinet minister sitting on the board of that company. And yes, it may be less than 50%, not 'most of the cabinet', apologies. I didn't realise this was semantic Sunday. And it's only an example to illustrate a wider point I was making about PBs post.

[johnbc70]

Google if it you're interested. You and I may have a pension who's valuation is influenced by fluctuations in the share price of virgin health care. That's very different from being a cabinet minister sitting on the board of that company. And yes, it may be less than 50%, not 'most of the cabinet', apologies. I didn't realise this was semantic Sunday. And it's only an example to illustrate a wider point I was making about PBs post.

Sorry but claims that 'most of the cabinet' would gain from selling the NHS to an US trust fund was simply not true, just pointing out that sometimes claims are made on here which on investigation are not true.

I had a look but could not find any current serving cabinet ministers on the boards of private health care companies, so that would be 0%. I could be wrong though.

I guess I am being awkward to make a point!

[One Day Soon]

I was at church earlier this evening. The Gospel story was of Jesus casting those selling animals for sacrifice and money changers from the Temple. The story isn’t particularly important but the Priests homily was, as it usually is, interesting. He pointed out the story was showing Jesus not as meek and mild as is often the portrayal but as an angry and passionate human being. He went on to say that anger can be a positive emotion particularly when aimed at injustice. He concluded by saying Lent was a time to think about what makes us angry and how we can challenge it but that we must have an open ear and listen to what others, even those we are angry with, say back otherwise we come across as pious and self righteous.

Now I know there could be a million pages written about the hypocrisy of a Catholic Priest warning against against preaching and not listening to counter argument but in a political sense I think there is a valid message there. I often find the left adopts an attitude of knowing what is best for those they claim to seek to help rather than listening to what help they actually want and need. Trump wasn’t carried into power solely on the shoulders of rich elites, it was rust belt USA that was a huge part of his core vote. Brexit may have been the baby of the likes of Gove and Johnson but it’s popularity was greatest in some of our most deprived areas. The reaction of many on the left to these events, and others, was not to engage with these people and try to understand their reasons, concerns and desires but rather to scoff at them as stupid, share videos of ‘idiots’ making erroneous statements, throw accusations of racism about like confetti and preach to the fools about how much worse their life would become because of their own stupidity.

I think it’s something we all have in us. We become so blinded by our own views and beliefs, so consumed by what we think is best we often forget to listen to what other people are saying. Recent history has shown that engaging with and motivating what should be your core vote is the road to success, it’s hopefully a lesson that those angry about injustice across the world learn and they begin to do less preaching and more listening.


A superb post. Which church BTW?

[Pretty Boy]

A superb post. Which church BTW?

St Johns at Portobello.

[One Day Soon]

I think your critique is a critique of pomposity in general. There are pompous people everywhere, on the right and the left, I doubt Aberdeen Uni Socialists are immune from it :greengrin. I'd suggest 'the left' are doing better now than at any time in my memory, and UKIP and Farage are electorally speaking an irrelevance, which doesn't really support your argument. Personally, as long as someone is genuinely willing to roll up their sleeves and do something to contribute to society, whether they call themselves left or right, or whatever, they share the same values as me. A lot of these traditional binary labels don't serve any purpose anymore.

On the other hand, there are some areas where politically, I wouldn't compromise, like free health care for everyone. I'm not willing to spend my time being polite and trying to 'understand' and 'listen to another point of view' to people who want to sell off the NHS to US hedge funds, like, let's see, most of the Tory cabinet, who are doing so for their own financial interests. I will argue against these people and I won't shy away from telling them they're morally wrong, whether they like it or not, regardless of education, social class or whatever.

Where?

[One Day Soon]

St Johns at Portobello.

We're at St Catherine's, Gracemount. When the church/priest is bad its awful, when its good its outstanding.

[hibsbollah]

Where?

Here we go :rolleyes:

[Pretty Boy]

We're at St Catherine's, Gracemount. When the church/priest is bad its awful, when its good its outstanding.

I only started going again recently. It's a bit strange because I still consider myself as agnostic, from a position of atheism I suppose that's an 'improvement', and a lot of my own liberalism is at odds with the Church. I like the peacefulness and focus of Mass though and the fact you can't just grab your phone or change the channel or any other distraction. There's usually something said that is challenging or worth listening to and a lot of people I have spoken with seem happy and motivated by their faith to do good.

We had Father Willy Slavin with us for a couple of weeks lately. He's an interesting character who was and is worth listening to.

[One Day Soon]

There’s always going to be racists and stupid people.

I’ve often found an almost nasty self congratulatory intellectual and moral superiority amongst some on the left. ‘Oh it’s just so much harder to be left wing, you really have to think about it and educate yourself above your instincts’ or the chant in unison when presented with an argument they don’t like ‘you just don’t understand’.

I think the left has to consider that over the last decade, and arguably considerably longer, areas in the UK, and other western countries, that have seen traditional industries disappear, have seen communities and community spirit decimated, have seen almost a million people people forced to work on zero hours contracts and so on have turned to the likes of Johnson and Farage rather than to them. It must be cause for concern that Eton FPs and a former city worker appear to be able to speak to the ‘working class’ and appear more accessible to them than many on the left do.

I’ve told the story before but many years ago I was involved in the Socialist Society at Aberdeen Uni. I expected a real community spirit and a work ethic. What I encountered were a group of people who formed committees and working groups that reported back about nothing, sat about theorising on how they could put the world to rights, occassionally attended a protest about Palestine or tuition fees and dismissed criticism with a tirade of theoretical bollocks they had read. The final straw was when I approached a few people about helping a local community charity who worked with ex child offenders and needed people to take them on day trips and so on. They refused because ‘helping charities legitimised a system in which charities have to exist’. Meanwhile the buffoons in the Conservative Society who these people loved to tear strips off were out working with a local group that offered a drop in service for parents of disabled children, many were involved in the Scout Association and they regularly supported the work of other local charities through fundraising.

The lefties were so wrapped up in their own moral superiority and big plans that they were wilfully ignoring people in need right in front of their eyes. The wider failure of the left in the UK for decades now is an expanded version of a local problem I encountered imo.


If you didn't like that kind of inward looking left politics you really wouldn't how Corbyn's brand is unfolding within Labour.

To be fair left and right are equally guilty of having lost grip completely on the nature of the problems we now face nationally and globally and what do do in response to those challenges. In their impotence in the face of these forces they are retreating into history with the left moving further left and the right moving further right. It is bizarre that in facing new challenges they expect old solutions to work rather than considering that perhaps party politics rooted in centuries old movements and institutions may not be capable of shaping the answers we need.

[One Day Soon]

Here we go :rolleyes:

It's a fair question don't you think? Where in the world is the left in power and shaping the future?

[snooky]

If you didn't like that kind of inward looking left politics you really wouldn't how Corbyn's brand is unfolding within Labour.

To be fair left and right are equally guilty of having lost grip completely on the nature of the problems we now face nationally and globally and what do do in response to those challenges. In their impotence in the face of these forces they are retreating into history with the left moving further left and the right moving further right. It is bizarre that in facing new challenges they expect old solutions to work rather than considering that perhaps party politics rooted in centuries old movements and institutions may not be capable of shaping the answers we need.

I still think if Nick Clegg hadn't sold his soul, the Liberal Party would be soaring right now (in the UK as a whole).
There must be many disenchanted voters from right and left out there ready for the picking.
Alas, he destroyed his Party for at least generation.

[One Day Soon]

I only started going again recently. It's a bit strange because I still consider myself as agnostic, from a position of atheism I suppose that's an 'improvement', and a lot of my own liberalism is at odds with the Church. I like the peacefulness and focus of Mass though and the fact you can't just grab your phone or change the channel or any other distraction. There's usually something said that is challenging or worth listening to and a lot of people I have spoken with seem happy and motivated by their faith to do good.

We had Father Willy Slavin with us for a couple of weeks lately. He's an interesting character who was and is worth listening to.

Our priest is really thought provoking week in, week out. The guy that usually sets things alight though is an Irish priest who visits from time to time when holidaying from his parish in Guatemala. His reflections on extreme poverty, death squads, corruption, healthcare and political/corporate terror in that country are very, very sobering.

[One Day Soon]

I still think if Nick Clegg hadn't sold his soul, the Liberal Party would be soaring right now (in the UK as a whole).
There must be many disenchanted voters from right and left out there ready for the picking.
Alas, he killed his Party for at least generation.

He could probably have sold half his soul by going into coalition but not dropping the Lib Dem pledge on tuition fees and, as you suggest, be in a pretty healthy position right now. Can't stand the Lib-Dems myself but you can see how they could have benefitted.

[hibsbollah]

It's a fair question don't you think? Where in the world is the left in power and shaping the future?

Im exasperated because I can see this thread, which started off into fairly interesting territory about belief, into the usual dull linear 'he's an erse, no he isnae' stuff which you evidently enjoy and which makes this place increasingly boring.

[One Day Soon]

Im exasperated because I can see this thread, which started off into fairly interesting territory about belief, into the usual dull linear 'he's an erse, no he isnae' stuff which you evidently enjoy and which makes this place increasingly boring.


That seems a bit offensive and uninformative. You were the one who brought the contention about the left into the thread, not me.

I simply asked where you see it because it isn't evident to me that the left are shaping events in power anywhere in the world.

[hibsbollah]

That seems a bit offensive and uninformative. You were the one who brought the contention about the left into the thread, not me.

I simply asked where you see it because it isn't evident to me that the left are shaping events in power anywhere in the world.

Don't be disingenuous, i think the world and his wife knows you were taking it into a 'bash Corbyn' direction, you don't need to have been on here for 18,000 posts to know that.

[The Green Goblin]

Firstly I will admit that I’ve had a few drinks. I’m a person that constantly thinks about what is happening around me and what’s happening in the wider world. I get annoyed by the capitalist system, but I wish I was rich. I get annoyed seeing corrupt leaders in other countries betraying the people they are supposed to represent, but I don’t want our country to intervene. I hate the fact that the EPL is so rich and we live off the scraps, but I still watch it.
The only thing that gives me hope is learning about space exploration. In order for humanity to survive we need to leave our home planet.
I know I’m rambling a lot of pish here, but I just wish that people could put ridiculous preconceptions behind them and concentrate on what’s important for all of us.

This is one of my favourite ever posts on hibs.net.

[hibsbollah]

This is one of my favourite ever posts on hibs.net.

:agree:I dont know what the good Lord Bunberry was apologising about, to be honest, it was a fantastic OP. Its about as far away from a drunken rant as i can imagine.

[snooky]

He could probably have sold half his soul by going into coalition but not dropping the Lib Dem pledge on tuition fees and, as you suggest, be in a pretty healthy position right now. Can't stand the Lib-Dems myself but you can see how they could have benefitted.

Me 2

[johnbc70]

Don't be disingenuous, i think the world and his wife knows you were taking it into a 'bash Corbyn' direction, you don't need to have been on here for 18,000 posts to know that.

But it's fine for you to claim almost all the cabinet will profit from selling the NHS, which we then established was false, or at least you failed to back up your claims.

[hibsbollah]

But it's fine for you to claim almost all the cabinet will profit from selling the NHS, which we then established was false, or at least you failed to back up your claims.

Mate, its off topic. And it was a tiny part of a broader point. I could spend all my Sunday researching the numbers of Tories being baw deep in NHS privatisation to prove a point, but im not going to. If you want to chalk that up as You 1 Me 0 thats up to you. I just wish you and others would engage with the discussion instead of semantics. What sort of world do YOU want to live in?

[lapsedhibee]

But it's fine for you to claim almost all the cabinet will profit from selling the NHS, which we then established was false, or at least you failed to back up your claims.

Not the same as "most of" which you earlier quoted. Standards! :nerd:

[One Day Soon]

Don't be disingenuous, i think the world and his wife knows you were taking it into a 'bash Corbyn' direction, you don't need to have been on here for 18,000 posts to know that.


I'm not being disingenuous, I'm asking a perfectly reasonable question. If you don't have an answer it just say so rather than this pretty dull playing the man rather than the ball stuff. There's no need to pretend to mind read what I'm thinking, particularly when the (wrong) assumption you make is avoiding the broader discussion you claim to seek.

I repeat that you were the one who brought the contention about the left into the thread, not me. I had actually assumed that with that you were addressing the global nature of the OP's points rather than Jeremy Corbyn's world. And events in Italy seem to be reinforcing my point, whatever the answer is to the questions raised in the OP it doesn't currently, sadly, seem to be offered by the left.

[Glory Lurker]

Much preferred this thread when it was about spaceships.

[One Day Soon]

Much preferred this thread when it was about spaceships.

And on the subject, are people thinking that space exploration is an answer? I fully expect that it will produce massive fortunes for a very limited number of people, result in a tiny proportion of the earth's population being off planet and change not very much here on the blue planet.

Cracking escapism for a limited few, but hard to see how it does anything other than avoid the point about how we address the fundamental nature of human beings if we really want to sort out where we currently stand.

[Glory Lurker]

And on the subject, are people thinking that space exploration is an answer? I fully expect that it will produce massive fortunes for a very limited number of people, result in a tiny proportion of the earth's population being off planet and change not very much here on the blue planet.

Cracking escapism for a limited few, but hard to see how it does anything other than avoid the point about how we address the fundamental nature of human beings if we really want to sort out where we currently stand.

See post 3 ;-) Agree, and I don't really see the point. I do see the point in trying to find life elsewhere, but would leave that to telescopes and robots.

[Pretty Boy]

I think the issue with space exploration is it's not an answer to our problems in itself. If we go to another planet or a space station or whatever with the same attitudes and agendas as here then we take the same problems with us. If we are capable of putting aside those differences to make it off this planet surely we are capable of doing it here?

[Pete]

That seems a bit offensive and uninformative. You were the one who brought the contention about the left into the thread, not me.

I simply asked where you see it because it isn't evident to me that the left are shaping events in power anywhere in the world.

You were the one who brought the global context to the table when he was obviously meaning the UK. Labour has more members than ever, a huge grassroots movement beneath it and a spectacular showing against all the odds in the last general election with a "radical" leader at the helm...to me, that's the left doing pretty well in that regard.

I know your Overton window needs nudged slightly but I refuse to believe you don't know why there aren't more left wing governments "shaping events".

Good god, they aren't even allowed to "shape events" within their own country without heavy interference/criticism. 😂

[Pete]

I think the issue with space exploration is it's not an answer to our problems in itself. If we go to another planet or a space station or whatever with the same attitudes and agendas as here then we take the same problems with us. If we are capable of putting aside those differences to make it off this planet surely we are capable of doing it here?

This is the point that I was trying to make, far too subtlety, in post 6. We are the problem, not the planet.

The problem is that we concentrate on things like economics and "freedom" to accumulate material wealth rather than the natural environment and a community spirit that helps the most vulnerable.

From Adam Smiths theories, to Thatcher, right up to the present day stuff that is actually more right wing...we've been conditioned to believe we are animalistic, selfish ****s and we're all out to cut each other's throats.

All I'll say is that I think we, as a race, are better than that and will find a way to survive.

[lord bunberry]

I think the issue with space exploration is it's not an answer to our problems in itself. If we go to another planet or a space station or whatever with the same attitudes and agendas as here then we take the same problems with us. If we are capable of putting aside those differences to make it off this planet surely we are capable of doing it here?
Ultimately to survive as a species space exploration will be a necessity. Our planet will at some point become uninhabitable. My rather clumsily made point was that we are as far as we’ve ever been on our own planet from uniting and being able to colonise other worlds. We will probably still be fighting our own petty battles over things that don’t really matter when the time comes. It will probably take a huge natural disaster to focus the minds of the people running our world to realise that our existence isn’t guaranteed. Over 90% of all species that have ever lived are now extinct, and we will go the same way unless attitudes change.

[lord bunberry]

This is the point that I was trying to make, far too subtlety, in post 6. We are the problem, not the planet.

The problem is that we concentrate on things like economics and "freedom" to accumulate material wealth rather than the natural environment and a community spirit that helps the most vulnerable.

From Adam Smiths theories, to Thatcher, right up to the present day stuff that is actually more right wing...we've been conditioned to believe we are animalistic, selfish ****s and we're all out to cut each other's throats.

All I'll say is that I think we, as a race, are better than that and will find a way to survive.
I also think as a race we’re better than that, but it will take a monumental shift in people’s attitudes and a hell of a lot of time before we are in a position to say that we aren’t.

[snooky]

Either the Law of the Jungle will dictate who survives or a celestial disaster will take us all out. Whatever it is, it ain't gonna be pretty. :cb

[RyeSloan]

This is the point that I was trying to make, far too subtlety, in post 6. We are the problem, not the planet.

The problem is that we concentrate on things like economics and "freedom" to accumulate material wealth rather than the natural environment and a community spirit that helps the most vulnerable.

From Adam Smiths theories, to Thatcher, right up to the present day stuff that is actually more right wing...we've been conditioned to believe we are animalistic, selfish ****s and we're all out to cut each other's throats.

All I'll say is that I think we, as a race, are better than that and will find a way to survive.

We’ve been conditioned to believe no such thing. If that was he case why would we tolerate welfare states across most of the western world? Welfare states that redistribute wealth on a grand scale.

Inherently though people are selfish, to some degree that’s just human nature to look after ones self and ones loved ones. You can’t change that and if you are waiting on a world where everyone always puts others first then you are waiting on a world that simply will never exist.

That said there is the plenty of education to be done on how protecting and supporting the environment and societies more vulnerable elements can help all and to be honest I think there is a slow trend towards that...most folk are certainly much more aware of their environmental impact with plastic just being the latest item that is being highlighted.

As for space exploration...I’m all for it! To limit ourselves to forever just think of the one planet and not to venture out into the wider galaxy is just plain boring in my book.

[Pete]

We’ve been conditioned to believe no such thing. If that was he case why would we tolerate welfare states across most of the western world? Welfare states that redistribute wealth on a grand scale.

Inherently though people are selfish, to some degree that’s just human nature to look after ones self and ones loved ones. You can’t change that and if you are waiting on a world where everyone always puts others first then you are waiting on a world that simply will never exist.

That said there is the plenty of education to be done on how protecting and supporting the environment and societies more vulnerable elements can help all and to be honest I think there is a slow trend towards that...most folk are certainly much more aware of their environmental impact with plastic just being the latest item that is being highlighted.

As for space exploration...I’m all for it! To limit ourselves to forever just think of the one planet and not to venture out into the wider galaxy is just plain boring in my book.

Can I ask why you believe that? Did you read it? If so, who wrote it and what was their motive?Did you gather data? Is it just "common knowledge"? If so how did it become common knowledge?

I'm no sociologist but in my opinion, the fact that you believe that is evidence of the conditioning. There are probably innocent sources out there that propagate the idea that humans, to an extent, are naturally individualistic and selfish but I believe people also did this for their own purposes. No doubt there are forces conditioning us to believe the other side of the story...that we are innately selfless and care about a collective above the individual and not all of them will have those with honourable motives behind them. However, I know which is the more desirable human trait and my way of thinking is to believe we are more inclined to behave that way. I also believe that we are a product of the society we develop within and things like behavioural traits adjust accordingly. We're perfectly capable of changing our "nature" but will we? Probably not in my lifetime anyway.

Anyway, I'm sure everyone has heard enough of my crackpot theories and shoehorning of politics into it so I'm out in that regard. :greengrin

Space travel? This is an idea I'm not really into, primarily because I don't understand it. To my uneducated eye, we've spent billions that could've been spent on improving our lot down on earth and what have we got out of it? The knowledge that some planets are hot and a worm might have lived on Mars millions of years ago?
I'm being slightly facetious but I'd love to see something tangible, like a planet we can live on or an alien life form. In fact, what if we do contact aliens...how do we know they would be friendly? What if they are after our planet?? :-0

[RyeSloan]

Can I ask why you believe that? Did you read it? If so, who wrote it and what was their motive?Did you gather data? Is it just "common knowledge"? If so how did it become common knowledge?

I'm no sociologist but in my opinion, the fact that you believe that is evidence of the conditioning. There are probably innocent sources out there that propagate the idea that humans, to an extent, are naturally individualistic and selfish but I believe people also did this for their own purposes. No doubt there are forces conditioning us to believe the other side of the story...that we are innately selfless and care about a collective above the individual and not all of them will have those with honourable motives behind them. However, I know which is the more desirable human trait and my way of thinking is to believe we are more inclined to behave that way. I also believe that we are a product of the society we develop within and things like behavioural traits adjust accordingly. We're perfectly capable of changing our "nature" but will we? Probably not in my lifetime anyway.

Anyway, I'm sure everyone has heard enough of my crackpot theories and shoehorning of politics into it so I'm out in that regard. :greengrin

Space travel? This is an idea I'm not really into, primarily because I don't understand it. To my uneducated eye, we've spent billions that could've been spent on improving our lot down on earth and what have we got out of it? The knowledge that some planets are hot and a worm might have lived on Mars millions of years ago?
I'm being slightly facetious but I'd love to see something tangible, like a planet we can live on or an alien life form. In fact, what if we do contact aliens...how do we know they would be friendly? What if they are after our planet?? :-0

I believe it because that’s what many years on this earth has shown me this to be the case. School of life n all that [emoji23]

Venturing into space is required to, amongst many other things, understand what we are, where we might have came from and just what kinda neighbourhood we stay in [emoji57] I find the thought of people NOT wanting humans to venture beyond the (relatively to the universe) microscopic confines of earth a bit odd...or maybe I’m still a kid and like rockets and space stations [emoji2]