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AgentDaleCooper
06-02-2018, 02:33 AM
...who? i know stubbs brought us the holy grail, but i think lennon is a more gifted, all round manager. he's certainly the best we've had in my life time (i.e. since 1988). it's pretty crazy when you think about it, that we got the last manager to get a scottish club team into the last 16 of the champions league.

Swedish hibee
06-02-2018, 03:01 AM
Oh don't start this again.
That cup win was the greatest day of my life. Full stop.

houstonhibbee
06-02-2018, 04:06 AM
...who? i know stubbs brought us the holy grail, but i think lennon is a more gifted, all round manager. he's certainly the best we've had in my life time (i.e. since 1988). it's pretty crazy when you think about it, that we got the last manager to get a scottish club team into the last 16 of the champions league.
we're not quite there yet but this has to be the most exciting time with the potential to be the most successful period in our history since 72-74, as long as we keep Leanne and Neil.

jijihibby
06-02-2018, 04:10 AM
I agree; it is essential we hang on to these two specially gifted and driven people for as long as is humanly possible.

Viva_Palmeiras
06-02-2018, 06:05 AM
Oh don't start this again.
That cup win was the greatest day of my life. Full stop.

Sense spoken. He’s having a giraffe.

Doh Rae Me
06-02-2018, 06:27 AM
...... Before Alex Miller.

Imho.

lyonhibs
06-02-2018, 06:48 AM
Since Alan Stubbs. End of thread.

Just Jimmy
06-02-2018, 08:57 AM
Since Alan Stubbs. End of thread.SIR Alan Stubbs.

Now, it's end of thread.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

WhileTheChief..
06-02-2018, 09:08 AM
Lennon is the best although my dad would say Turnbull.

No need to close the thread, let others have their say!

IGRIGI
06-02-2018, 09:27 AM
Alan Stubbs who finished 3rd behind Falkirk.

















I'll just grab the popcorn now.

pacoluna
06-02-2018, 09:33 AM
on par with tony Mowbray in my life time , If he stays for a while he will overlap him however.

hibs#1
06-02-2018, 09:34 AM
Statistically speaking he is the best since Stubbs

Stubbs had 58% win ratio
Lennon has 50.67% win ratio
Best before that was Wille Macfarlane in 69/70 with 51.76%

That's from Wikipedia so might not be 100% accurate.

hibsbollah
06-02-2018, 09:46 AM
Statistically speaking he is the best since Stubbs

Stubbs had 58% win ratio
Lennon has 50.67% win ratio
Best before that was Wille Macfarlane in 69/70 with 51.76%

That's from Wikipedia so might not be 100% accurate.

Obviously Stubbs played more games in the second tier than Lennon so the comparison is a wee bit unfair. Our current performance this season is broadly on target to match McFarlanes team, who finished 3rd with a 19-6-9 wdl record.

Peevemor
06-02-2018, 09:46 AM
Statistically speaking he is the best since Stubbs

Stubbs had 58% win ratio
Lennon has 50.67% win ratio
Best before that was Wille Macfarlane in 69/70 with 51.76%

That's from Wikipedia so might not be 100% accurate.

If these stats are accurate then Lennon's are pretty impressive given that we weren't in the top league under Stubbs.

Northernhibee
06-02-2018, 09:48 AM
Alan Stubbs who finished 3rd behind Falkirk.

















I'll just grab the popcorn now.
In a season we reached both cup finals and lost our form due to injuries and a grueling winter schedule. Mourinho would have struggled with that.

Stubbs achievement in the end that season was incredible.

Hibbyradge
06-02-2018, 09:49 AM
He's not won anything so we can rule out Turnbull, Miller, Collins and Stubbs.

Other than that, take your pick.

jacomo
06-02-2018, 09:51 AM
Alan Stubbs who finished 3rd behind Falkirk.

















I'll just grab the popcorn now.


:yawn:

JimBHibees
06-02-2018, 09:52 AM
He's not won anything so we can rule out Turnbull, Miller, Collins and Stubbs.

Other than that, take your pick.

Won the championship. :greengrin

Stevie Reid
06-02-2018, 09:54 AM
If these stats are accurate then Lennon's are pretty impressive given that we weren't in the top league under Stubbs.

Soccerbase stats work them out as that also. Stubbs was in charge for 100 games:

W 58 D 19 L 23

Lennon has 80 games so far:

W 41 D 24 L 15

Lennon has been in charge for ten less league games than Stubbs. Stubbs lost 16 league games in the Championship - Lennon has nine losses from 62 league games across Championship and SPL.

Hibbyradge
06-02-2018, 09:55 AM
Won the championship. :greengrin

So he's the best manager since Alex McLeish, then.

FACT.

:na na:

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
06-02-2018, 09:58 AM
Think this is all a bit premature.

Fenlon had us third, Yogi had us third, McLeish and Mogga finished third.

Im excited about him, and i like him, but lets not get carried away.

wookie70
06-02-2018, 10:15 AM
A bit early to judge for me. I would say Stubbs was better(Cup win, cup runs, rebuilt squad and team spirit from rock bottom, good eye for a player, style of play) so Lennon isn't the best manager since anyone else. He won the Championship but without the kind of competition Stubbs had. From what I read St. Mirren have more points than we did at this stage last year against similar opposition but on a fraction of our budget. Lennon has done really well in the league this year and the new signings look a step up on their predecessors, at least on the back of a couple of good wins. Lot's of the good qualities that Stubbs brought have been maintained with Lennon and you could definitely argue we are a bit more resilient and have a bit more steel.

When Stubbs' team break up, probably in the summer, we will start to get an idea how good Lennon is as a manager. If we are up fighting in the same position next year as we are this year then he will be the best manager for a good while. At the moment he is a manager doing what he is expected to do or slightly above that, which to be fair is a step up on most we have had in the 40 odd years I've watched Hibs. The vast majority of Hibs managers in my time were failures and Lennon has been a success up to this point and hopefully for a good while to come.

Franck Stanton
06-02-2018, 10:30 AM
Would hate to have seen some of the replies to this question had it been asked on the day after the s/c defeat to the ****mies.

ancient hibee
06-02-2018, 10:49 AM
Just as one defeat doesn’t turn him into a dumpling so a good victory at Rangers(who we should have slaughtered at ER)doesn’t turn him into a genius.He’s a good manager who has instilled some backbone but he has some way to go before he could be classed as a Hugh Shaw or Eddie Turnbull.Hopefully he’ll be here long enough to have a shot at it.

FilipinoHibs
06-02-2018, 10:51 AM
Lennon is the best although my dad would say Turnbull.

No need to close the thread, let others have their say!

Turnbull then Lennon. saw both their teams and all in between. Both winners and tactically smart.

hibs#1
06-02-2018, 10:55 AM
Turnbull then Lennon. saw both their teams and all in between. Both winners and tactically smart.

Turnbull has 48.24% win ratio his is taken over 450+ games so over the piece he probably is our greatest ever manager.

FilipinoHibs
06-02-2018, 11:00 AM
Turnbull has 48.24% win ratio his is taken over 450+ games so over the piece he probably is our greatest ever manager.

Agree Eddie by several lengths. had to compete with the Lisbon lions and challenged the best in England.

G B Young
06-02-2018, 11:36 AM
Agree Eddie by several lengths. had to compete with the Lisbon lions and challenged the best in England.

Turnbull's longevity also counts in his favour. In his full seasons as boss we finished 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 4th, 5th. This at a time, as you say, when Celtic were at their peak. He stayed on too long and prior to his departure he had us bound for relegation, but at his best there were few to match him. He won us a major trophy plus a couple of Drybrough Cups, took us to three other domestic finals and last eight of the Cup Winners Cup.

More recently, when managers don't tend to stay longer than a handful of seasons, Tony Mowbray's achievement in finishing 3rd and 4th deserves a lot of credit.

pacoluna
06-02-2018, 11:40 AM
A bit early to judge for me. I would say Stubbs was better(Cup win, cup runs, rebuilt squad and team spirit from rock bottom, good eye for a player, style of play) so Lennon isn't the best manager since anyone else. He won the Championship but without the kind of competition Stubbs had. From what I read St. Mirren have more points than we did at this stage last year against similar opposition but on a fraction of our budget. Lennon has done really well in the league this year and the new signings look a step up on their predecessors, at least on the back of a couple of good wins. Lot's of the good qualities that Stubbs brought have been maintained with Lennon and you could definitely argue we are a bit more resilient and have a bit more steel.

When Stubbs' team break up, probably in the summer, we will start to get an idea how good Lennon is as a manager. If we are up fighting in the same position next year as we are this year then he will be the best manager for a good while. At the moment he is a manager doing what he is expected to do or slightly above that, which to be fair is a step up on most we have had in the 40 odd years I've watched Hibs. The vast majority of Hibs managers in my time were failures and Lennon has been a success up to this point and hopefully for a good while to come.
Did Stubbs do what he was expected to do?

SideBurns
06-02-2018, 11:46 AM
Did Stubbs do what he was expected to do?

Not quite - but he did do what he wasn't expected to do; not in any of our craziest, wildest dreams!

WeeRussell
06-02-2018, 12:12 PM
Think this is all a bit premature.

Fenlon had us third, Yogi had us third, McLeish and Mogga finished third.

Im excited about him, and i like him, but lets not get carried away.

Spot-on.. and we're still odds-against to get third.

Also.. Stubbs.

MWHIBBIES
06-02-2018, 12:16 PM
Did Stubbs do what he was expected to do?No, he massively exceeded any expectations. **** promotion, on my death bed I won't be moaning about finishing 3rd behind Falkirk, I'll still be thinking about the day we won the cup.

pacoluna
06-02-2018, 12:32 PM
No, he massively exceeded any expectations. **** promotion, on my death bed I won't be moaning about finishing 3rd behind Falkirk, I'll still be thinking about the day we won the cup.
Aye because the Scottish cup doesn't clouding your judgement.

Peevemor
06-02-2018, 12:39 PM
Turnbull's longevity also counts in his favour. In his full seasons as boss we finished 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 4th, 5th. This at a time, as you say, when Celtic were at their peak. He stayed on too long and prior to his departure he had us bound for relegation, but at his best there were few to match him. He won us a major trophy plus a couple of Drybrough Cups, took us to three other domestic finals and last eight of the Cup Winners Cup.

More recently, when managers don't tend to stay longer than a handful of seasons, Tony Mowbray's achievement in finishing 3rd and 4th deserves a lot of credit.

I don't think you can properly compare managers pre and post Bosman - it's not at all the same job. Players generally stayed with clubs far longer then (apart from those either really crap or really good) and the difference in wages between the likes of Hibs and the OF and even the English top flight was far smaller.

I'm not criticising Eddie Turnbull because I know that club chairman, especially pre-Bosman, had a huge say in what players were to be sold and when, but the team Turnbull himself assembled (as opposed to mostly inherited) were relegated.

There's no way of knowing if the "tornados" would have won the league under Mowbray, Stubbs or Lennon for example.

It's a huge subject and unfortunately I don't have time to set out all my thoughts.

Hibbyradge
06-02-2018, 12:39 PM
Aye because the Scottish cup isn't clouding your judgement.

Of course it's clouding his judgement. It's clouding mine too.

I'd almost have accepted relegation from the championship in return for that Scottish Cup win.

Stubbs is a legend forever more. Mowbray and McLeish were good managers, arguably very good, but no more than that.

Lennon? Who knows what he may achieve, but unless it's spectacular, it'll not be up there with Stubbs triumph on the 9th of May 2016.

erin go bragh
06-02-2018, 12:42 PM
Statistically speaking he is the best since Stubbs

Stubbs had 58% win ratio
Lennon has 50.67% win ratio
Best before that was Wille Macfarlane in 69/70 with 51.76%

That's from Wikipedia so might not be 100% accurate.
You would think Hugh Shaw would have the best win ratio . We won 3 titles and 2 runners up with him at the helm .

pacoluna
06-02-2018, 12:47 PM
Of course it's clouding his judgement. It's clouding mine too.

I'd almost have accepted relegation from the championship in return for that Scottish Cup win.

Stubbs is a legend forever more. Mowbray and McLeish were good managers, arguably very good, but no more than that.

Lennon? Who knows what he may achieve, but unless it's spectacular, it'll not be up there with Stubbs triumph on the 9th of May 2016.

I ain't saying he's not a legend, I'm just saying with his remit he never done a particularly good job. Therefore I don't think he was a particularly good manager.

neil7908
06-02-2018, 12:55 PM
I ain't saying he's not a legend, I'm just saying with his remit he never done a particularly good job. Therefore I don't think he was a particularly good manager.

I think this is harsh - would his remit not have covered progress in the cups?

FWIW I'm delighted with Lennon and was disappointed with our league form under Stubbs but I don't think it's fair to just take it out of discussions regarding his performance.

If say Tottenham finish 6th this season but win the Champions League don't you think their fans would be delighted?

I think Alan needs to take another job to really test if he's a quality manager. He could end up being a bit of a Di Matteo type, or go onto even greater success, it's too early to tell.

matty_f
06-02-2018, 12:56 PM
I've said it before but IMHO it's so churlish to write off Stubbs' achievements because he didn't get us promoted. In fact, I would say that there is a case to say that Stubbs' overachievement in the cups was what prevented us from being promoted.

Stubbs took us, as a Championship side, to two cup finals in the same season and won the Scottish Cup, a defining point in the club's history.

It's too easy to take the black and white stance and say that his time was tarnished because we didn't get promoted, without context that's probably a fair argument. However, as soon as you put context into the league performance (right down to a ridiculous refereeing decision to not give a penalty in the play-off), you see how close he actually got to having a season that would have been arguably unsurpassed in any era at the club (IMHO). `

Lennon is definitely the best manager since Stubbs, though. :greengrin

Northernhibee
06-02-2018, 12:58 PM
Aye because the Scottish cup doesn't clouding your judgement.

So you're allowed to take some aspects of his performance into account but not others?

Stubbs only mistake was building a very good, technical top flight side in a league that required big lumps to break down an eleven man defence.

Only one team from the top flight beat us over 90 minutes (Ross County) under Stubbs. By the end of January. in our cup winning season we'd beaten as many SPL teams as Dundee United had.

Stubbs was a ****ing brilliant manager imo.

pacoluna
06-02-2018, 12:59 PM
I've said it before but IMHO it's so churlish to write off Stubbs' achievements because he didn't get us promoted. In fact, I would say that there is a case to say that Stubbs' overachievement in the cups was what prevented us from being promoted.

Stubbs took us, as a Championship side, to two cup finals in the same season and won the Scottish Cup, a defining point in the club's history.

It's too easy to take the black and white stance and say that his time was tarnished because we didn't get promoted, without context that's probably a fair argument. However, as soon as you put context into the league performance (right down to a ridiculous refereeing decision to not give a penalty in the play-off), you see how close he actually got to having a season that would have been arguably unsurpassed in any era at the club (IMHO). `

Lennon is definitely the best manager since Stubbs, though. :greengrin
How can anyone suggest Stubbs overachieved, that's just ludicrous.

matty_f
06-02-2018, 01:00 PM
How can anyone suggest Stubbs overachieved, that's just ludicrous.

Two cup finals in a season, winning one of them, isn't better than expected?

pacoluna
06-02-2018, 01:01 PM
So you're allowed to take some aspects of his performance into account but not others?

Stubbs only mistake was building a very good, technical top flight side in a league that required big lumps to break down an eleven man defence.

Only one team from the top flight beat us over 90 minutes (Ross County) under Stubbs. By the end of January. in our cup winning season we'd beaten as many SPL teams as Dundee United had.

Stubbs was a ****ing brilliant manager imo.

It's always ifs and buts with Stubbs. Almost as if we are making up excuses because he brung us the holy grail which I will be enterally grateful for.

hibsbollah
06-02-2018, 01:03 PM
How can anyone suggest Stubbs overachieved, that's just ludicrous.

Are you maybe confusing overachieved with underachieved? He definitely overachieved, I don't understand your incredulity.

Northernhibee
06-02-2018, 01:04 PM
It's always ifs and buts with Stubbs. Almost as if we are making up excuses because he brung us the holy grail which I will be enterally grateful for.

His signings were largely very good, the football entertaining, none of the off field shenanigans or trouble and he is a winner too. You don't need to make excuses for him, Stubbs was and is the best manager we've had in many years.

yonder1875
06-02-2018, 01:04 PM
How can anyone suggest Stubbs overachieved, that's just ludicrous.

Not ludicrous at all, guy won us the cup and was very unlucky not to be promoted in the same season. Stubbs laid the foundations for the good work we are doing now.

Halmyre Hibee
06-02-2018, 01:07 PM
In my opinion Neil Lennon is the best Manager since Eddie Turnbull. He is high profile, very experienced and we get a lot of publicity. I really hope we can hold onto him for many years to come. Stubbs was a great fit and won us the Scottish Cup something that so called better Managers could not. I also enjoyed the style of football we played under Collins, Mowbray & McLeish.

My favourite era was under Turnbull but he was a stubborn git and broke up my heroes far too early.

Since I started watching Hibs only Shankly, Turnbull, Miller, McLeish, Mowbray and Stubbs have been in charge for 100 games or more.


http://www.fitbastats.com/hibs/manager_timeline.php

jacomo
06-02-2018, 01:14 PM
I ain't saying he's not a legend, I'm just saying with his remit he never done a particularly good job. Therefore I don't think he was a particularly good manager.


They say football is all about opinions. Even rubbish ones like this.

SideBurns
06-02-2018, 01:15 PM
Stubbs definitely overachieved by winning the Scottish Cup - he also overachieved by reaching the League Cup Final, given we had to beat Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, and St.Johnstone to get there. Whether he underachieved in not getting us out of the Championship is a moot point, but given that he was competing with Hearts and Rangers in the first season, and then the Huns in the second season, it can at least argued that it was always going to be difficult!

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
06-02-2018, 01:18 PM
I don't think you can properly compare managers pre and post Bosman - it's not at all the same job. Players generally stayed with clubs far longer then (apart from those either really crap or really good) and the difference in wages between the likes of Hibs and the OF and even the English top flight was far smaller.

I'm not criticising Eddie Turnbull because I know that club chairman, especially pre-Bosman, had a huge say in what players were to be sold and when, but the team Turnbull himself assembled (as opposed to mostly inherited) were relegated.

There's no way of knowing if the "tornados" would have won the league under Mowbray, Stubbs or Lennon for example.

It's a huge subject and unfortunately I don't have time to set out all my thoughts.

Very good point re Bosman.

Clubs at our level are now effectively working on two year cycles - the one we are on at the moment will probably end this summer with mcginn and maybe mcgeouch leaving.

hibbysam
06-02-2018, 01:21 PM
It's always ifs and buts with Stubbs. Almost as if we are making up excuses because he brung us the holy grail which I will be enterally grateful for.

Which other manager got us to two cup finals in one season? We came within two horrendous decisions from the play off final after having the worst schedule I can remember. He laid the foundations in regards to bringing back a winning mentality to our club and took us from having 8k through the gate week in week out to nearly 12k season ticket holders when he left.

Onion
06-02-2018, 01:25 PM
Lennon's a decent manager, no more, no less. We've been so used to having idiots in charge at Hibs, there's a tendency to over-praise when something reasonable happens. Hibs are not "punching above their weight" as most of the media would have everyone believe and Neil Lennon is not some god we're lucky to have. All he has done is not **** it up.

Hibs have an excellent squad of players (most of whom were at the club before NL took over) who were used to winning matches and silverware. Huns and Yams are in a poor state, with arguably the worst squads they've had in years.

Given our income, the state that some other clubs are in, and the bounce back effect of promotion, 4th place feels about right for Hibs at this point. Anything less should be seen as underperforming. If Lennon takes us to 3rd or 2nd, then that would be something else.

Onion
06-02-2018, 01:31 PM
Which other manager got us to two cup finals in one season? We came within two horrendous decisions from the play off final after having the worst schedule I can remember. He laid the foundations in regards to bringing back a winning mentality to our club and took us from having 8k through the gate week in week out to nearly 12k season ticket holders when he left.

You missed the rebuilding of the entire squad following Butcher and relegation. As good a piece of management as you'll see in football.

superfurryhibby
06-02-2018, 01:33 PM
I don't think you can properly compare managers pre and post Bosman - it's not at all the same job. Players generally stayed with clubs far longer then (apart from those either really crap or really good) and the difference in wages between the likes of Hibs and the OF and even the English top flight was far smaller.

I'm not criticising Eddie Turnbull because I know that club chairman, especially pre-Bosman, had a huge say in what players were to be sold and when, but the team Turnbull himself assembled (as opposed to mostly inherited) were relegated.

There's no way of knowing if the "tornados" would have won the league under Mowbray, Stubbs or Lennon for example.

It's a huge subject and unfortunately I don't have time to set out all my thoughts.

Agree with a lot of this, but would it not also be fair to say that Chairman Hart started to lose interest and boardroom decision making was what cost us. Turnbull, middle period saw the emergence of players like Des Bremner, Ally McLeod, Iain Munro, Bobby Smith, Jackie McNamara ( although Munro was swapped, presumably on Turnbull's say so), all signed or brought through the ranks by ET. By the time of relegation we were on our knees, Nearly everything of value had been flogged, including the likes of Brownlie, Blackley.

Turnbull's early side played with a style rarely seen at ER. Although they only won a League Cup, the fact that they are so full fondly remembered 45 years on says iit all.

Lennon has us performing well and I think has the ability to consolidate and improve this side. Whether he gets the backing or hangs around long enough remains to be seen.

Peevemor
06-02-2018, 01:42 PM
Agree with a lot of this, but would it not also be fair to say that Chairman Hart started to lose interest and boardroom decision making was what cost us. Turnbull, middle period saw the emergence of players like Des Bremner, Ally McLeod, Iain Munro, Bobby Smith, Jackie McNamara ( although Munro was swapped, presumably on Turnbull's say so), all signed or brought through the ranks by ET. By the time of relegation we were on our knees, Nearly everything of value had been flogged, including the likes of Brownlie, Blackley.

Turnbull's early side played with a style rarely seen at ER. Although they only won a League Cup, the fact that they are so full fondly remembered 45 years on says iit all.

Lennon has us performing well and I think has the ability to consolidate and improve this side. Whether he gets the backing or hangs around long enough remains to be seen.

I did mention the chairman's influence and tried to be careful not to criticise ET, simply because in 1975 (end of the tornados???) I was only 8 years old and hadn't even been to a match at Easter Road, therefore any opinion I have isn't at all valid.

My main point was that a managers job is very different since Bosman and the mega TV money in England and elsewhere.

DavidDavidGray
06-02-2018, 01:47 PM
You missed the rebuilding of the entire squad following Butcher and relegation. As good a piece of management as you'll see in football.

This. People seem to forget that Stubbs had a massive rebuilding job on his hands when he came in. He was never gonna get promoted in the first season back IMO and whilst we should’ve been promoted in the 2nd, he took us to both cup finals, which means a lot more games. He did this all whilst playing entertaining, attacking football. Stubbs is arguably one of the most important managers in our history.

superfurryhibby
06-02-2018, 02:02 PM
I did mention the chairman's influence and tried to be careful not to criticise ET, simply because in 1975 (end of the tornados???) I was only 8 years old and hadn't even been to a match at Easter Road, therefore any opinion I have isn't at all valid.

My main point was that a managers job is very different since Bosman and the mega TV money in England and elsewhere.

I agree with that point wholeheartedly and although I was not that much older than you at the time you mention, it's OK to form an opinion based on the history. TBF Turnbull made some strange decisions too, buying Harper when we needed a goalie and a centre half. swapping Munro for Fyfe and Scott and getting rid of Gordon and O'Rourke were all poor decisions.

1van Sprou7e
06-02-2018, 02:08 PM
Think this is all a bit premature.

Fenlon had us third, Yogi had us third, McLeish and Mogga finished third.

Im excited about him, and i like him, but lets not get carried away.

Fenlon had us 3rd?

Stevie Reid
06-02-2018, 02:11 PM
Fenlon had us 3rd?

He didn't say we finished 3rd under Fenlon.

Fenlon actually had us top of the league in November. We were 7th by the end of the season though.

snooky
06-02-2018, 02:19 PM
...who? i know stubbs brought us the holy grail, but i think lennon is a more gifted, all round manager. he's certainly the best we've had in my life time (i.e. since 1988). it's pretty crazy when you think about it, that we got the last manager to get a scottish club team into the last 16 of the champions league.

Neil Lennon best manager since ..... Sly Sbreed some are saying.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
06-02-2018, 02:29 PM
You would think Hugh Shaw would have the best win ratio . We won 3 titles and 2 runners up with him at the helm .

And the two runners up were, i think on goal average?

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
06-02-2018, 02:31 PM
Fenlon had us 3rd?

If memory serves... at the start of his full season in charge, with cairney on the left wing, doyle and Griffiths up front - i could be wrong, but i remember have a very hibs-esque good start to the season?

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
06-02-2018, 02:32 PM
He didn't say we finished 3rd under Fenlon.

Fenlon actually had us top of the league in November. We were 7th by the end of the season though.

Cheers, knew somebody with a better memory would know!

Stevie Reid
06-02-2018, 02:35 PM
Cheers, knew somebody with a better memory would know!

nae bother :greengrin

The game that put us top:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OuLiqJp0Ho

Pretty Boy
06-02-2018, 02:38 PM
On my deathbed I doubt I'll remember 3 years in the Championship, I hope I'll still have enough about me to be able to remember 21st May 2016.

Alan Stubbs was a fantastic manager for us. In the heat of the moment post play offs I dismissed a lot of what he had done but with hindsight he was a key part in the rebuilding of Hibs. Of course the Scottish Cup win may be clouding peoples judgement, it's certainly got about 6-7000 fans attending regularly again for the 1st time in years.

Stubbs and Lennon may well prove to be 2 of the most defining managers in our history. In the past good football, cup wins and decent league finishes always felt a bit flash in the pan. Our last and current manager, along with others at the club, seem to be creating a culture where this is the norm.

wookie70
06-02-2018, 03:38 PM
Did Stubbs do what he was expected to do?

Stubbs would have been expected to finish 2nd imo that first year and then put up a good show in play-offs and hopefully get promoted. The referee and luck probably played a big part in us not going through to the final.

The second year it would have been to finish second behind The Rangers and we missed out on that by 2 goals and went to a League Cup final, where we were unlucky to get beaten, and won the Holy Grail. If he had lost that final I would have said he had failed but not by a huge margin. In winning it he went firmly into the plus column for me.

The amount of games we played also comes into my thinking with Stubbs as fatigue got the better of us towards the end of that season. Lennon is using that excuse now after a winter break a few weeks ago. I think Lennon has a point but just think of the games we had to play getting to two finals and play-offs in the same season without a break.

pacoluna
06-02-2018, 03:58 PM
Stubbs would have been expected to finish 2nd imo that first year and then put up a good show in play-offs and hopefully get promoted. The referee and luck probably played a big part in us not going through to the final.

The second year it would have been to finish second behind The Rangers and we missed out on that by 2 goals and went to a League Cup final, where we were unlucky to get beaten, and won the Holy Grail. If he had lost that final I would have said he had failed but not by a huge margin. In winning it he went firmly into the plus column for me.

The amount of games we played also comes into my thinking with Stubbs as fatigue got the better of us towards the end of that season. Lennon is using that excuse now after a winter break a few weeks ago. I think Lennon has a point but just think of the games we had to play getting to two finals and play-offs in the same season without a break.
I hear all this and at some points I agree. However I always come back to the same conclusion that Lennon is a more competent manager than Stubbs in most categories. Perhaps it's his enthusiasm and his willingness to tell things as they are that appeals to me more.

Stevie Reid
06-02-2018, 04:15 PM
Stubbs would have been expected to finish 2nd imo that first year and then put up a good show in play-offs and hopefully get promoted. The referee and luck probably played a big part in us not going through to the final.

The second year it would have been to finish second behind The Rangers and we missed out on that by 2 goals and went to a League Cup final, where we were unlucky to get beaten, and won the Holy Grail. If he had lost that final I would have said he had failed but not by a huge margin. In winning it he went firmly into the plus column for me.

The amount of games we played also comes into my thinking with Stubbs as fatigue got the better of us towards the end of that season. Lennon is using that excuse now after a winter break a few weeks ago. I think Lennon has a point but just think of the games we had to play getting to two finals and play-offs in the same season without a break.

I love Stubbs, I will always be grateful to him for what he did for us, and he will always be a legend for the Scottish Cup win. There is much that he deserves credit for.

The 2nd place finish in his first season was satisfying as we had such an horrendous start and we overtook Rangers right at the death, but we finished 21 points behind (an albeit resurgent) Hearts that season - and that despite them effectively not taking any points off us over the four league games (win each and two draws).

After 26 games in the Championship we were 20 points behind Hearts at the top of the league. After 26 games in the SPL, we are 16 points behind the best Celtic team in over ten years (not to mention 7 points ahead of Hearts) - that is quite an achievement, though I know we still have 12 games left.

Stubbs deserves the credit he gets. Lennon deserves much more credit than he gets from many on here, however.

TelaStella
06-02-2018, 05:45 PM
Since Alan Stubbs. End of thread.

This. No matter what you have to say about finishing behind Falkirk some of the fitbaw under Stubbs was absolutely terrific at times, championship or not. You can also thank him for SJM, Dylan, Daz, Marv, Boyle, bringing Allan in and even getting Cummings up and running.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jacomo
06-02-2018, 05:50 PM
Stubbs deserves the credit he gets. Lennon deserves much more credit than he gets from many on here, however.


Both of them have their detractors. One rebuilt a demoralised squad and achieved the Holy Grail, the other has done everything asked of him so far, so the criticism seems a bit ridiculous.

Given some of our recent managerial appointments you’d have thought folk might have a better sense of perspective, but hey ho.

G B Young
06-02-2018, 06:55 PM
Agree with a lot of this, but would it not also be fair to say that Chairman Hart started to lose interest and boardroom decision making was what cost us. Turnbull, middle period saw the emergence of players like Des Bremner, Ally McLeod, Iain Munro, Bobby Smith, Jackie McNamara ( although Munro was swapped, presumably on Turnbull's say so), all signed or brought through the ranks by ET. By the time of relegation we were on our knees, Nearly everything of value had been flogged, including the likes of Brownlie, Blackley.

Turnbull's early side played with a style rarely seen at ER. Although they only won a League Cup, the fact that they are so full fondly remembered 45 years on says iit all.

While Sir Alex Ferguson is (rightly) lauded for his extraordinary achievements at Aberdeen, Eddie had also rejuvenated the Dons prior to his move to Hibs, winning them the Scottish Cup just a few years before Ferguson took over.

I agree about it being difficult to compare managers and players from different eras but there's no question Turnbull was acknowledged by his peers at the time as one of the best in the business. A hard man no question and certainly not universally liked by his players, but respected by almost all of them.

Jock Stein's Celtic started to slide around the same time as Hibs (I recall Celtic finishing 5th one season in the mid to late 70s), so perhaps the game/society was changing around these managers of the old school.

DH1875
06-02-2018, 07:21 PM
If you could 100% guarantee me Stubbs wanted the job and that we could 100% get him in as manager in the morning I'd actually say, no thanks, let's stick with Lennon and see how that goes. It's a funny old world :confused:

Weir07
06-02-2018, 07:29 PM
A bit early to judge for me. I would say Stubbs was better(Cup win, cup runs, rebuilt squad and team spirit from rock bottom, good eye for a player, style of play) so Lennon isn't the best manager since anyone else. He won the Championship but without the kind of competition Stubbs had. From what I read St. Mirren have more points than we did at this stage last year against similar opposition but on a fraction of our budget. Lennon has done really well in the league this year and the new signings look a step up on their predecessors, at least on the back of a couple of good wins. Lot's of the good qualities that Stubbs brought have been maintained with Lennon and you could definitely argue we are a bit more resilient and have a bit more steel.

When Stubbs' team break up, probably in the summer, we will start to get an idea how good Lennon is as a manager. If we are up fighting in the same position next year as we are this year then he will be the best manager for a good while. At the moment he is a manager doing what he is expected to do or slightly above that, which to be fair is a step up on most we have had in the 40 odd years I've watched Hibs. The vast majority of Hibs managers in my time were failures and Lennon has been a success up to this point and hopefully for a good while to come.

The most considered and balanced post in the whole thread in my opinion, sums it up nicely.

wookie70
06-02-2018, 08:01 PM
After 26 games in the Championship we were 20 points behind Hearts at the top of the league. After 26 games in the SPL, we are 16 points behind the best Celtic team in over ten years (not to mention 7 points ahead of Hearts) - that is quite an achievement, though I know we still have 12 games left.

Stubbs deserves the credit he gets. Lennon deserves much more credit than he gets from many on here, however.

Very fair point about how many points we are behind Celtic(their team last year was a good bit better imo) and I'm praising Lennon for that as I think we are one place ahead of target. He is performing slightly better than I think I would expect with a chance of doing significantly better or of course finishing having done ok this year. I doubt we will be below 5th now.

Lennon hasn't had the longest time in the hot seat so you have to take last season into consideration when answering the OPs question imo. Hibs had 47 points after 24 games last year and St. Mirren now have 54. Hibs lost and drew games 25 and 26. Winning the league was his job and he done that but we were heavy favourites and it wasn't as convincing as I would have expected with a Cup Winning Squad and a close season to improve. So job done and no more last year for me and job done slightly better than expected this year with quite a few games left. The loss to Hearts in the Cup and the shenanigans from 3 players he signed/resigned, all of whom had previous disciplinary issues, go in the negative column for me although the Players deserve more blame than Lennon. Getting to the LC semi equals that out though as a semi a season is good going albeit not on the level Stubb's managed.

In no way am I saying Lennon is a bad manager but it's too early to say how good imo and next season will be the time to judge when the team is mostly his and we will be in our second season in the top league.

WhileTheChief..
06-02-2018, 08:19 PM
It’s not just about the results though.

The way he talks about the game is impressive. He explains his thinking and seems to see the same things as us. Watch any of his interviews on Hibs TV and compare them to and of the other managers ones, it’s chalk and cheese.

We definitely get a better press with him in charge and it feels like the club is taken more seriously now. He’s also raised our profile nationally.

To me, Stubbs felt like a temporary appointment and that he was just passing through. Lennon I think, sees us a challenge and is trying to build something special.

As an aside, let’s not compare what he did last season to what St Mirren are currently doing. We finished about 50 points clear of them last season!!

It appears like some people just can’t wait for him to fail.

Clarence
06-02-2018, 08:43 PM
I don't think any of these managers would beat the Gala Galactico in a changing room press-up off.

stantonhibby
06-02-2018, 08:46 PM
Very fair point about how many points we are behind Celtic(their team last year was a good bit better imo) and I'm praising Lennon for that as I think we are one place ahead of target. He is performing slightly better than I think I would expect with a chance of doing significantly better or of course finishing having done ok this year. I doubt we will be below 5th now.

Lennon hasn't had the longest time in the hot seat so you have to take last season into consideration when answering the OPs question imo. Hibs had 47 points after 24 games last year and St. Mirren now have 54. Hibs lost and drew games 25 and 26. Winning the league was his job and he done that but we were heavy favourites and it wasn't as convincing as I would have expected with a Cup Winning Squad and a close season to improve. So job done and no more last year for me and job done slightly better than expected this year with quite a few games left. The loss to Hearts in the Cup and the shenanigans from 3 players he signed/resigned, all of whom had previous disciplinary issues, go in the negative column for me although the Players deserve more blame than Lennon. Getting to the LC semi equals that out though as a semi a season is good going albeit not on the level Stubb's managed.

In no way am I saying Lennon is a bad manager but it's too early to say how good imo and next season will be the time to judge when the team is mostly his and we will be in our second season in the top league.

We did horse Hearts in the cup last year and get to SC semi.

theonlywayisup
06-02-2018, 09:04 PM
I've not read the previous posts and don't intend to.

To me, this is the opposite of the "which drunk has the best bad breath" analogy.

Both are up there with the best ever Hibs managers. Would Lennon have won the cup against a poor The Rangers team - not convinced. Would Stubbs have got us promotion against the anti-football teams in the Championship - not convinced.

Both managers have their strengths and weaknesses.

If I was to be pushed, I think we are extremely lucky to have a manager of Lennon's ability. He has a very good track record apart from his time at Bolton.

If we didn't have Lennon, the only other manager I would want is Stubbs.

We are lucky to have had both.

ian cruise
06-02-2018, 10:55 PM
I've not read the previous posts and don't intend to.

To me, this is the opposite of the "which drunk has the best bad breath" analogy.

Both are up there with the best ever Hibs managers. Would Lennon have won the cup against a poor The Rangers team - not convinced. Would Stubbs have got us promotion against the anti-football teams in the Championship - not convinced.

Both managers have their strengths and weaknesses.

If I was to be pushed, I think we are extremely lucky to have a manager of Lennon's ability. He has a very good track record apart from his time at Bolton.

If we didn't have Lennon, the only other manager I would want is Stubbs.

We are lucky to have had both.

Lennon is doing OK against poor Rangers teams these days....

Forza Fred
06-02-2018, 11:19 PM
I think they both came in the best order for us, and their ‘skill set’ matched the times

By that I mean Stubbsie came in at a time of transition, and kind of assisted in nurturing change, and rebuilding what was a squad pretty much at rock bottom.

Lennon on the other hand took over a pretty good performing squad where much was expected of them, and instilled a ‘winning mentality’ in most, and seems more of a seargant major type, than a friendly uncle.

There was a place for both approaches, and I think both have been/are/will continue to be for us.

I like Lennon, and hope he stays for a few more years but if he was to be pinched from us, would be quite happy if Stubbs was his successor.

Smartie
06-02-2018, 11:37 PM
I loved Stubbs. Great transfer record, great manager, played good football, won the cup. He seemed like a good lad too.

I also love Lennon. He's done everything asked of him and is a superb manager who is overseeing a continued improvement.

There's a lot to like about Lennon, but I do particularly like that his life's experiences have left him thick skinned and broad shouldered. The criticism that comes his way will be like water off a duck's back. He'll know he's doing a good job, he'll know that he needs to continue to do so and he won't be in any way sensitive to the frequent nonsense that gets chucked about in football.

I'll be forever grateful to Stubbs for his achievement, and we've had good managers in the past, but I've never warmed to a Hibs manager the way I've warmed to Lennon. I think he's the real deal and deserves a big gig again in future.

HoboHarry
07-02-2018, 01:36 AM
I loved Stubbs. Great transfer record, great manager, played good football, won the cup. He seemed like a good lad too.

I also love Lennon. He's done everything asked of him and is a superb manager who is overseeing a continued improvement.

There's a lot to like about Lennon, but I do particularly like that his life's experiences have left him thick skinned and broad shouldered. The criticism that comes his way will be like water off a duck's back. He'll know he's doing a good job, he'll know that he needs to continue to do so and he won't be in any way sensitive to the frequent nonsense that gets chucked about in football.

I'll be forever grateful to Stubbs for his achievement, and we've had good managers in the past, but I've never warmed to a Hibs manager the way I've warmed to Lennon. I think he's the real deal and deserves a big gig again in future.
Thoroughly enjoy reading your posts Smartie. Consistently a pleasant change from some of the other lunatic posts to be found on .net....... :aok:

monktonharp
07-02-2018, 02:31 AM
Not quite - but he did do what he wasn't expected to do; not in any of our craziest, wildest dreams!:greengrin

monktonharp
07-02-2018, 03:02 AM
This. People seem to forget that Stubbs had a massive rebuilding job on his hands when he came in. He was never gonna get promoted in the first season back IMO and whilst we should’ve been promoted in the 2nd, he took us to both cup finals, which means a lot more games. He did this all whilst playing entertaining, attacking football. Stubbs is arguably one of the most important managers in our history.Alan Stubbs, and his background staff at the time will be remembered as the best thing that happened to Hibernian, since sliced breed! how anyone can compare his achievement that year against others, when he took us to 2 cup finals (both we should have won imho) really gets me. we had a couple of unbelievable decisions against us that year regarding the play offs too. the performance on 21/5/16 was something that Hibs fans dreamed about for more than a hundred years and he was a major part of that. Do remember, a 2nd Division club that almost clinched promotion but didn't, also went on and got to 2 major cup finals and won the most prized. that wont ever happen again, and it's a bit like saying Gordon Smith won league medals with 3 different clubs and all outwith the OF. Alan Stubbs, legend:not worth

Austinho
07-02-2018, 03:05 AM
To me, Stubbs felt like a temporary appointment and that he was just passing through. Lennon I think, sees us a challenge and is trying to build something special.It was Stubbs that rebuilt our squad from scratch after we got relegated - something we are still reaping the benefits of now. The likes of Super John McGinn, Boyle, Bartley, Sir David Gray, Darren McGregor and Dylan McGeouch are the lifeblood of this club currently. Stubbs appointment was far from temporary, in fact he set the foundations for where we are now.

Lennon on the other hand has had to let go 2 of his own signings after half a season and replaced them with quite a few loan signings, with no guarantee any of them will be here next season. And if SJM leaves, our squad could look completely different next year. I really like Lennon and think he’s doing a fantastic job, but his signings don’t indicate building for the long term. Efe has been his only real success so far, but signing the likes of Whittaker, Brian Graham, Grant Holt - don’t seem like future thinking really.

IMO, Stubbs was better with new signings and transforming the club, Lennon superior at implementing what those players do on the pitch and giving us a bit of grit. They’ve been the perfect foil for each other really.