Tax plans

[lucky]

Seems there is a big difference in what a progressive tax plan looks like between the parties.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-42862383

Interesting debate to take place

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Interesting - and pretty extreme in my view.

However, its fascinating as the SNP are now firmly not on the left of Scottish politics anymore - not a bad thing in my view, bit many of the recent converts to nationalism from the left might be feeling a bit torn.

Edit - why are the SNP against allowing a tourist tax? Easiest tax to apply ever, you get the benefit, someone else pays - whats the downside?

[lucky]

Labour have set out to be bold and their plans on tax firmly put them to the left of the SNP. Unlikely to win the vote at Holyrood but will they carry favour with the voters.

On the tourist tax I agree that this would be a good move by CoE council and it’s a bit baffling that the SNP don’t support it

[JeMeSouviens]

Interesting - and pretty extreme in my view.

However, its fascinating as the SNP are now firmly not on the left of Scottish politics anymore - not a bad thing in my view, bit many of the recent converts to nationalism from the left might be feeling a bit torn.

Edit - why are the SNP against allowing a tourist tax? Easiest tax to apply ever, you get the benefit, someone else pays - whats the downside?

A bit o/t - but it would have been (a lot) better from a pro-Indy strategy pov for leftists to stay with Labour and move it towards Indy than desert to the SNP. All eggs in one basket, particularly a basket that's got to constantly keep devolved administration on the go, is a major weakness, imo.

Otoh (and back on topic), holding the centre ground on taxation is definitely the strategic place to be for the SNP. Scotland might have a mainstream social democratic streak, but a hotbed of radicalism it most certainly is not.

On the tourist tax, I thought the SNP favoured it locally in Edi?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

A bit o/t - but it would have been (a lot) better from a pro-Indy strategy pov for leftists to stay with Labour and move it towards Indy than desert to the SNP. All eggs in one basket, particularly a basket that's got to constantly keep devolved administration on the go, is a major weakness, imo.

Otoh (and back on topic), holding the centre ground on taxation is definitely the strategic place to be for the SNP. Scotland might have a mainstream social democratic streak, but a hotbed of radicalism it most certainly is not.

On the tourist tax, I thought the SNP favoured it locally in Edi?

Fair point on moving labour towards indy.

They may well be, but i thought the SG blocked it, or dont support it - could be wrong though.

Agree re tax, but strategically it puts the SNP on shaky ground with their newly won territories in the west.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Labour have set out to be bold and their plans on tax firmly put them to the left of the SNP. Unlikely to win the vote at Holyrood but will they carry favour with the voters.

On the tourist tax I agree that this would be a good move by CoE council and it’s a bit baffling that the SNP don’t support it

True, but bold is not a synonym for good.

My own theory is that they dont believe it would be equitable, as a few places would reap all of the benefits, leaving other places that they care about more (ie. Glasgow) trailing further behind. But thats just a theory!

[Hibrandenburg]

Interesting - and pretty extreme in my view.

However, its fascinating as the SNP are now firmly not on the left of Scottish politics anymore - not a bad thing in my view, bit many of the recent converts to nationalism from the left might be feeling a bit torn.

Edit - why are the SNP against allowing a tourist tax? Easiest tax to apply ever, you get the benefit, someone else pays - whats the downside?

Brilliant! Tax Johnny Foreigner and endanger an industry that brings 11bn to the country. More proof that Labour's socialism only extends to our own shores.

[One Day Soon]

Brilliant! Tax Johnny Foreigner and endanger an industry that brings 11bn to the country. More proof that Labour's socialism only extends to our own shores.

I'm afraid that's a really poor reading of the proposal. The whole idea would be to use the revenue to strengthen the appeal and experience for visitors to further grow the industry.

This shouldn't even be party political, so called 'bed tax' really is a no-brainer.

[Hibrandenburg]

Labour have set out to be bold and their plans on tax firmly put them to the left of the SNP. Unlikely to win the vote at Holyrood but will they carry favour with the voters.

On the tourist tax I agree that this would be a good move by CoE council and it’s a bit baffling that the SNP don’t support it

The SNP would appear to have an international concept on socialism unlike Labour's inward looking national socialist policies.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm afraid that's a really poor reading of the proposal. The whole idea would be to use the revenue to strengthen the appeal and experience for visitors to further grow the industry.

This shouldn't even be party political, so called 'bed tax' really is a no-brainer.

At a time where our tourist industry is threatened by uncertainty for EU citizens considering spending their cash on a visit to Scotland, Labour would like to make it more expensive than it already is by introducing more cost. Not exactly a strategic master plan. Inward thinking of the kind we've grown accustomed to from Labour.

[CropleyWasGod]

At a time where our tourist industry is threatened by uncertainty for EU citizens considering spending their cash on a visit to Scotland, Labour would like to make it more expensive than it already is by introducing more cost. Not exactly a strategic master plan. Inward thinking of the kind we've grown accustomed to from Labour.

2 things, though:-

1. it's cheaper now for Euro-spending tourists to come to the UK.

2. almost every major tourist-destination city has a similar charge. For the sake of a few £ a night, I have never known of anyone being put off going anywhere by that.

[IGRIGI]

A tourist tax is par for the course in many places around Europe, it would be free cash for the council.

[One Day Soon]

2 things, though:-

1. it's cheaper now for Euro-spending tourists to come to the UK.

2. almost every major tourist-destination city has a similar charge. For the sake of a few £ a night, I have never known of anyone being put off going anywhere by that.


Precisely. Just Labour baading the idea isn't helpful.

[Hibrandenburg]

2 things, though:-

1. it's cheaper now for Euro-spending tourists to come to the UK.

2. almost every major tourist-destination city has a similar charge. For the sake of a few £ a night, I have never known of anyone being put off going anywhere by that.

It's not just the tax on its own though is it? The Labour supported fiasco that is Brexit combined with a new tax for visitors already made uncertain about planning a visit will undoubtedly make many consider other options. Higher tax income but fewer tourists will be the ultimate result of such a policy and it's the small businesses that are at the heart of the industry that will suffer.

[Hibrandenburg]

A tourist tax is par for the course in many places around Europe, it would be free cash for the council.

At the cost of small businesses that make up the lifeblood of Scottish tourism.

[CropleyWasGod]

It's not just the tax on its own though is it? The Labour supported fiasco that is Brexit combined with a new tax for visitors already made uncertain about planning a visit will undoubtedly make many consider other options. Higher tax income but fewer tourists will be the ultimate result of such a policy and it's the small businesses that are at the heart of the industry that will suffer.

Do you really think so? Have you ever been put off going somewhere by the thought of having to pay a local tourist charge?

[JeMeSouviens]

Do you really think so? Have you ever been put off going somewhere by the thought of having to pay a local tourist charge?

:agree: Especially when, as already said, the £ has weakened so much.

[marinello59]

At the cost of small businesses that make up the lifeblood of Scottish tourism.

Yet the SNP in Edinburgh, our major tourist destination, support it as well. I don’t see the problem with it.

[Hibrandenburg]

Do you really think so? Have you ever been put off going somewhere by the thought of having to pay a local tourist charge?

Yes! If there's an alternative that offers similar without one.

Like I said, I've many friends who visit Scotland regularly who consider it to already be an expensive holiday option. Most of them are already considering other alternatives because of the uncertainties around Brexit and hiking prices is only going to make that decision easier.

I realise my opinion is a subjective one but I'm sure it's not just my friends who're considering if it's really worth the hassle and cost.

[JeMeSouviens]

Precisely. Just Labour baading the idea isn't helpful.

Adam McVey (SNP councillor, Leith) quoted extensively in:

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/plans-for-edinburgh-tourist-tax-within-weeks-1-4675476

So seems the SNP locally do support it in Edinburgh.

[RyeSloan]

Yes! If there's an alternative that offers similar without one.

Like I said, I've many friends who visit Scotland regularly who consider it to already be an expensive holiday option. Most of them are already considering other alternatives because of the uncertainties around Brexit and hiking prices is only going to make that decision easier.

I realise my opinion is a subjective one but I'm sure it's not just my friends who're considering if it's really worth the hassle and cost.

So if higher taxes put off tourists....then I assume we can extrapolate to say they will do exactly the same for higher earners?

[Hibrandenburg]

Yet the SNP in Edinburgh, our major tourist destination, support it as well. I don’t see the problem with it.

And in combination with Brexit, what kind of message is that sending out to potential foreign visitors? The Scottish tourist industry is largely dependant on the image of friendly hospitality, that image is being destroyed piece by piece. A NEW tourist tax will only damage it further.

[Hibrandenburg]

Adam McVey (SNP councillor, Leith) quoted extensively in:

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/plans-for-edinburgh-tourist-tax-within-weeks-1-4675476

So seems the SNP locally do support it in Edinburgh.

That doesn't make it party policy. Introducing a tourist tax nationwide is a completely different kettle of fish.

[Hibrandenburg]

So if higher taxes put off tourists....then I assume we can extrapolate to say they will do exactly the same for higher earners?

No we can't. This is not about SNP good everyone else bad. This is about one single policy proposal that in my opinion will short-term provide a cash boost for the government but will cause long-term damage to an industry and the small businesses that dependent on it. It's a bad policy that's inward looking and would be whatever party proposes it.

[marinello59]

At a time where our tourist industry is threatened by uncertainty for EU citizens considering spending their cash on a visit to Scotland, Labour would like to make it more expensive than it already is by introducing more cost. Not exactly a strategic master plan. Inward thinking of the kind we've grown accustomed to from Labour.


No we can't. This is not about SNP good everyone else bad. This is about one single policy proposal that in my opinion will short-term provide a cash boost for the government but will cause long-term damage to an industry and the small businesses that dependent on it. It's a bad policy that's inward looking and would be whatever party proposes it.

So it’s not about bashing Labour.

[beensaidbefore]

And in combination with Brexit, what kind of message is that sending out to potential foreign visitors? The Scottish tourist industry is largely dependant on the image of friendly hospitality, that image is being destroyed piece by piece. A NEW tourist tax will only damage it further.


I struggle to see why tourist are put off by Brexit. Why do they care if they are only coming for a holiday?

[Hibrandenburg]

So it’s not about bashing Labour.

No, I'd be bashing the SNP too if they were supporting policies that are inward looking and alienating us from our European partners whilst actively supporting a tax that will damage an industry that is worth about 11bn to the economy.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I've only ever voted for 1 party in the UK and it isn't the SNP. :greengrin

[RyeSloan]

No we can't. This is not about SNP good everyone else bad. This is about one single policy proposal that in my opinion will short-term provide a cash boost for the government but will cause long-term damage to an industry and the small businesses that dependent on it. It's a bad policy that's inward looking and would be whatever party proposes it.

Who mentioned the SNP?

So why not then? You are saying a tax will put off tourists, why would substantially higher taxes not put off higher earners?

[Hibrandenburg]

I struggle to see why tourist are put off by Brexit. Why do they care if they are only coming for a holiday?

Can they bring their dogs, will they have to apply for a visa, will they be confronted by the new nationalism that has surfaced in recent years, are they going to be protected by EU law when they're in the country, can they use their EC bank cards to withdraw cash or pay for services and are things going to become more expensive when the UK leaves the EU? All questions that potential EU visitors are already asking themselves. Now is not the time to add more expense to the equation.

[Hibrandenburg]

Who mentioned the SNP?

So why not then? You are saying a tax will put off tourists, why would substantially higher taxes not put off higher earners?

Living and visiting somewhere are 2 completely different things, or am I misunderstanding the question?

[RyeSloan]

And in combination with Brexit, what kind of message is that sending out to potential foreign visitors? The Scottish tourist industry is largely dependant on the image of friendly hospitality, that image is being destroyed piece by piece. A NEW tourist tax will only damage it further.

Apart from international tourism is growing strongly over the last few years so the destroying of the 'friendly hospitality' image has clearly had zero effect. That would suggest that your supposition of this taking place is maybe incorrect.

A modest tourist tax will do nothing to put off visitors, as others have said it's common the world over.

As it is it's hardly the most important or discussion worthy point in Labours tax plans.

[Hibrandenburg]

Apart from international tourism is growing strongly over the last few years so the destroying of the 'friendly hospitality' image has clearly had zero effect. That would suggest that your supposition of this taking place is maybe incorrect.

A modest tourist tax will do nothing to put off visitors, as others have said it's common the world over.

As it is it's hardly the most important or discussion worthy point in Labours tax plans.

I disagree for the reasons I've previously mentioned.

[RyeSloan]

Living and visiting somewhere are 2 completely different things, or am I misunderstanding the question?

But people can choose where to live and where to work just like they can choose where to visit.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The SNP would appear to have an international concept on socialism unlike Labour's inward looking national socialist policies.

Behave! The SNP dont even describe themselves as socialist!

So, you are a socialist but you are against raising tax? How do you pay for anything? Also you do realise the bed tax would also apply to business travel, stag and hen doos etc, not just 'johnny foreigner'...

[Hibrandenburg]

But people can choose where to live and where to work just like they can choose where to visit.

People can choose whether to buy a pint of milk or wear a shirt and tie to bed but they're both completely different things. I don't get your point.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Who mentioned the SNP?

So why not then? You are saying a tax will put off tourists, why would substantially higher taxes not put off higher earners?

Or business taxes put off businesses from investing?

[RyeSloan]

I disagree for the reasons I've previously mentioned.

Ok so despite the numbers of international tourists rising in recent years and therefore there being no evidence of any piece by piece disintegration of Scotlands reputation as a place to visit you stand by your argument? Fair enough I suppose.

Still if we don't implement one we can look forward to everyone visiting here rather than Mallorca rather than face the €2 a day tax they are implementing...[emoji6]

[beensaidbefore]

Can they bring their dogs, will they have to apply for a visa, will they be confronted by the new nationalism that has surfaced in recent years, are they going to be protected by EU law when they're in the country, can they use their EC bank cards to withdraw cash or pay for services and are things going to become more expensive when the UK leaves the EU? All questions that potential EU visitors are already asking themselves. Now is not the time to add more expense to the equation.

I get that further down the line, but short term I cant see why anyone would give it a second thought. As far as I understand it, things will remain the same for at least 3 years so anyone planning a holiday should be fine for a while.

Planning on moving here is a different proposition.

[Hibrandenburg]

Behave! The SNP dont even describe themselves as socialist!

So, you are a socialist but you are against raising tax? How do you pay for anything? Also you do realise the bed tax would also apply to business travel etc, not just 'johnny foreigner'...

Donald Trump doesn't describe himself as racist, but he definitely is. What's your point?

Then call it an accomodation tax, calling it a tourist tax is a clear signal at who it's aimed at.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

will they be confronted by the new nationalism that has surfaced in recent years

Also, what has the independence referendum got to do with this? 😈

[RyeSloan]

People can choose whether to buy a pint of milk or wear a shirt and tie to bed but they're both completely different things. I don't get your point.

Aye OK...I'm sure you are smart enough to know exactly what the (very straight forward) point is but you clearly don't want to address it so we will leave it there.

[marinello59]

Donald Trump doesn't describe himself as racist, but he definitely is. What's your point?

Then call it an accomodation tax, calling it a tourist tax is a clear signal at who it's aimed at.

Just to clarify, you aren’t calling a tourist tax racist are you? I don’t think you are but your post does read like that.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Donald Trump doesn't describe himself as racist, but he definitely is. What's your point?

Then call it an accomodation tax, calling it a tourist tax is a clear signal at who it's aimed at.


I take your point on that, call it a bed tax, hotel occupancy levy, etc etc - fair doos.

My point is that the SNP are not socialists, not by any stretch of the imagination or by any definition of the word, no matter how loose. And they themselves would never, nor have ever claimed to be afaik.

Which makes your assertion that they are some sort of internationalist socialists just a bit odd.

[Hibrandenburg]

Ok so despite the numbers of international tourists rising in recent years and therefore there being no evidence of any piece by piece disintegration of Scotlands reputation as a place to visit you stand by your argument? Fair enough I suppose.

Still if we don't implement one we can look forward to everyone visiting here rather than Mallorca rather than face the €2 a day tax they are implementing...[emoji6]

Tourism is like any other industry in that it needs to be competitive, raising costs will definitely damage the attractiveness of our particular product. I can't see how anyone can argue with that logic.

[Hibrandenburg]

Aye OK...I'm sure you are smart enough to know exactly what the (very straight forward) point is but you clearly don't want to address it so we will leave it there.

I really don't understand you directly comparing living somewhere and visiting somewhere. That's not even nearly compatible.

[marinello59]

Tourism is like any other industry in that it needs to be competitive, raising costs will definitely damage the attractiveness of our particular product. I can't see how anyone can argue with that logic.

I think I know which party you voted for in the UK now. :greengrin

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Tourism is like any other industry in that it needs to be competitive, raising costs will definitely damage the attractiveness of our particular product. I can't see how anyone can argue with that logic.

I think tour logic is correct, but nobody is suggesting 30% taxes or anything like that - we are talking about £2 a night or something like that, a level that is unlikely to meaningfully affect demand - and it would be done by council area, so not for scotland as a whole necessarily but just for edinburgh, for example.

But if you dont agree with it fair enough, my original question was actually why the SG are against allowing local auths to implement it if they choose to, which i find strange.

Be interesting to see if this is one of the things the SG will concede on as part of budget negotiations...?

[Hibrandenburg]

Just to clarify, you aren’t calling a tourist tax racist are you? I don’t think you are but your post does read like that.

If I'm completely honest it was bait intended to get a wee rise out of you after my socialist nationalist/national socialist joke from last year. I probably should have added a wee smiley but then you wouldn't have even sniffed the bait. :wink:

[marinello59]

If I'm completely honest it was bait intended to get a wee rise out of you after my socialist nationalist/national socialist joke from last year. I probably should have added a wee smiley but then you wouldn't have even sniffed the bait. :wink:

:greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

I take your point on that, call it a bed tax, hotel occupancy levy, etc etc - fair doos.

My point is that the SNP are not socialists, not by any stretch of the imagination or by any definition of the word, no matter how loose. And they themselves would never, nor have ever claimed to be afaik.

Which makes your assertion that they are some sort of internationalist socialists just a bit odd.

Their political outlook is considerably less inward looking than that of Labour's at present.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Their political outlook is considerably less inward looking than that of Labour's at present.

Maybe, maybe not - a discussion for another time, and another thread imo.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think I know which party you voted for in the UK now. :greengrin

:faf:

[Hibrandenburg]

I think tour logic is correct, but nobody is suggesting 30% taxes or anything like that - we are talking about £2 a night or something like that, a level that is unlikely to meaningfully affect demand - and it would be done by council area, so not for scotland as a whole necessarily but just for edinburgh, for example.

But if you dont agree with it fair enough, my original question was actually why the SG are against allowing local auths to implement it if they choose to, which i find strange.

Be interesting to see if this is one of the things the SG will concede on as part of budget negotiations...?

I suppose well have to wait and see if the compromise is made and if it gets implemented. Then we'll have to wait a few years and see what actually happens. I'll say again that it's not just the tax bit the combination of that and the many uncertainties about Brexit that will do the damage. All in my humble opinion of course.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I suppose well have to wait and see if the compromise is made and if it gets implemented. Then we'll have to wait a few years and see what actually happens. I'll say again that it's not just the tax bit the combination of that and the many uncertainties about Brexit that will do the damage. All in my humble opinion of course.

Fair enough. Bit by that rationale, all politics causes uncertainty (not least indyref2 will we / wont we).

Personally, the only politics that would get in the way of me travelling somewhere wohld be something around safety - wars, maybe terrorism, or the type of govt in place (eg i wouldn't go to dubai due to their backwards views). Ive been to lots of places that habe a tourist tax, and some places like turkey which just plain old shake you down for euros on entry, and it hasnt put me off going. Thats why i dont think it would put off people coming here, particuarly as brsxit has made us cheaper for european visitors.

[lucky]

Lots of comments on a tourist tax which none us will pay but very few comments on the two proposals on income tax which we will have too pay!!!

[One Day Soon]

Lots of comments on a tourist tax which none us will pay but very few comments on the two proposals on income tax which we will have too pay!!!



It's possible to make an argument for lowering the top rate of tax to raise more tax. Pity none of the parties has the balls to put that on the table as it would make for a much more interesting debate.

Not sure why raising the top rate is being proposed since no-one seems to believe it will bring in more income.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Lots of comments on a tourist tax which none us will pay but very few comments on the two proposals on income tax which we will have too pay!!!

Very true!

Its a difficult one, i was won around to the idea that raising tax (as proposed by the SNP) is worth giving a go, not least by arguments made by a few posters on here that were thoufht provoking and persuasive.

However i do have an instinctive scepticism about it. I think Leonard smacks of someone trying very hard to create some groubd for himself and his party, but it seems a bit like virtue signalling to me. Look how tough i can be on the middle classes, arent i the scottish corbyn.

I think its too easy an answer sometimes, and those earning the good middle incomes are the people we want to encourage, the people we want to reward, and are the people on whom thebtax burden will feel greatest (i realise top earners pay more in real terms, as a percentage of income or disposable income i mean) - these are real people, who have done well and who are already contributing. And so while im persuadable on tax rises, i dont trust his motivations for doing it, or his analysis about the benfits it will bring.

Also, firing money at the public sector is as naked a thank you from him to his union backers as any other party firing favours at their doners. Another reason i dont trust his motives, or the usefulness of his proposals.

Bit conversely, i welcome the challenge, and the favt that itnforces the SNP to raise their game. There may be many things wrong with scottish politics just now, bit at least we have two functioning opposition parties.

[RyeSloan]

It's possible to make an argument for lowering the top rate of tax to raise more tax. Pity none of the parties has the balls to put that on the table as it would make for a much more interesting debate.

Not sure why raising the top rate is being proposed since no-one seems to believe it will bring in more income.

ODS wanting people to make arguments for lower taxes! What ever is the world coming to? [emoji23]

[RyeSloan]

Very true!

Its a difficult one, i was won around to the idea that raising tax (as proposed by the SNP) is worth giving a go, not least by arguments made by a few posters on here that were thoufht provoking and persuasive.

However i do have an instinctive scepticism about it. I think Leonard smacks of someone trying very hard to create some groubd for himself and his party, but it seems a bit like virtue signalling to me. Look how tough i can be on the middle classes, arent i the scottish corbyn.

I think its too easy an answer sometimes, and those earning the good middle incomes are the people we want to encourage, the people we want to reward, and are the people on whom thebtax burden will feel greatest (i realise top earners pay more in real terms, as a percentage of income or disposable income i mean) - these are real people, who have done well and who are already contributing. And so while im persuadable on tax rises, i dont trust his motivations for doing it, or his analysis about the benfits it will bring.

Also, firing money at the public sector is as naked a thank you from him to his union backers as any other party firing favours at their doners. Another reason i dont trust his motives, or the usefulness of his proposals.

Bit conversely, i welcome the challenge, and the favt that itnforces the SNP to raise their game. There may be many things wrong with scottish politics just now, bit at least we have two functioning opposition parties.

It's a rather tired and myopic approach to a difficult question.

I seriously wish that politicians stop thinking of income tax as their go to tool for making things 'fairer'.

What about all that accumulated capital wealth, maybe they should start thinking about how some of that should be re-distributed or at the very least attempt to put in measures to prevent such hoarding going forward.

They are also fixated on the 'wealthy' or the rich' and now seem to think that someone earning 60k is either or both when in reality that person is quite probably neither. And anyway there simply isn't enough people earning those sums or above to make up the alleged spending gap in any sustainable way.

The numbers are interesting to say the least. From a U.K. Perspective (no reason to doubt the figures in Scotland are any 'better') over 40% of working age adults don't pay any income tax at all and the top 1% of earners contribute something like 30% of the total amount. To suggest you can just keep extending that equation by taxing less and less at the bottom end and more and more at the top end is just stupid.

[ronaldo7]

Seems there is a big difference in what a progressive tax plan looks like between the parties.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-42862383

Interesting debate to take place

It's a pity BLIS only decided to release their plan, 1 day before the vote. The SG has been in negotiations with other parties for weeks. Given, the SNP are a minority gov, you'd have thought Dick Leonard would have come to the party earlier to ensure he had a chance to get some of his proposals into the budget.

[xyz23jc]

It's a pity BLIS only decided to release their plan, 1 day before the vote. The SG has been in negotiations with other parties for weeks. Given, the SNP are a minority gov, you'd have thought Dick Leonard would have come to the party earlier to ensure he had a chance to get some of his proposals into the budget.

More chance of Mark Warburton congratulating Hibernian FC on their historic Scottish cup victory! :wink::greengrin

[RyeSloan]

With everyone either asleep or fixated by Brexit I see the SNP have rolled out their proposed budget.

Shock horror they are using fiscal drag to tax people more while claiming inflation adjusting the bottom threshold some how equates to a tax cut.

The tax gap to rUK is therefore widening quite spectacularly for some and even the lower income bands are barely below rUK levels, one of the key items used to justify the changes last time.

The BBC has a wee table on the story that shows some interesting numbers. Someone who is paid £27k pays £2,900 in tax but someone earning twice as much pays over 3 times more tax at nearly £10k. Get paid 3 times as much and you pay 6 times as much tax.

Will be interesting to see what sop is thrown to the king maker Harvie this time around although he sounds rather grumpy that the SNP have failed (again) to address the local council funding issue.

[JeMeSouviens]

With everyone either asleep or fixated by Brexit I see the SNP have rolled out their proposed budget.

Shock horror they are using fiscal drag to tax people more while claiming inflation adjusting the bottom threshold some how equates to a tax cut.

The tax gap to rUK is therefore widening quite spectacularly for some and even the lower income bands are barely below rUK levels, one of the key items used to justify the changes last time.

The BBC has a wee table on the story that shows some interesting numbers. Someone who is paid £27k pays £2,900 in tax but someone earning twice as much pays over 3 times more tax at nearly £10k. Get paid 3 times as much and you pay 6 times as much tax.

Will be interesting to see what sop is thrown to the king maker Harvie this time around although he sounds rather grumpy that the SNP have failed (again) to address the local council funding issue.

Are you trying to pretend you didn't previously understand progressive taxation? :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

With everyone either asleep or fixated by Brexit I see the SNP have rolled out their proposed budget.

Shock horror they are using fiscal drag to tax people more while claiming inflation adjusting the bottom threshold some how equates to a tax cut.

The tax gap to rUK is therefore widening quite spectacularly for some and even the lower income bands are barely below rUK levels, one of the key items used to justify the changes last time.

The BBC has a wee table on the story that shows some interesting numbers. Someone who is paid £27k pays £2,900 in tax but someone earning twice as much pays over 3 times more tax at nearly £10k. Get paid 3 times as much and you pay 6 times as much tax.

Will be interesting to see what sop is thrown to the king maker Harvie this time around although he sounds rather grumpy that the SNP have failed (again) to address the local council funding issue.

Liking the cheeky wee spin from the Beeb in that table. It shows 7 example incomes, *6* of which are above the median salary in Scotland. :greengrin

[RyeSloan]

Are you trying to pretend you didn't previously understand progressive taxation? :wink:

I wasn’t pretending anything :-)

I just found the bare figures interesting as so often you see the percentages and bands but not the actual numbers.

And rather than not understanding progressive taxation I was maybe actually more surprised at the scale of that progression already. The narrative is so often ‘tax the rich more’ but when you see the fact that they (if £70k pa makes you rich) are already paying 6 times more when ‘only’ earning 3 times more then (as ever [emoji23]) it made me think about how far that maxim can be stretched.

Anyhoo not raising tax bands for inflation is just rude in my book, as is pretending when doing so is a tax cut. One of the oldest and cheapest tricks that is really just blatant dishonesty.

[RyeSloan]

Liking the cheeky wee spin from the Beeb in that table. It shows 7 example incomes, *6* of which are above the median salary in Scotland. :greengrin

I was more pissing myself at the thought of a joiner only earning £27k...clearly not referring to any tradesman I’ve had to employ and showing the power of self assessment has not diminished [emoji6]

[PiemanP]

I’m just putting more money into my pension to offset the extra tax that I’d have to pay up here v in the rUK. Hope more people wise up and do the same. Personally don’t agree that as a middle earner in Edinburgh my tax bill is nearly 2 grand a year more than someone 50 miles down the road in Berwick.

[Just Alf]

I’m just putting more money into my pension to offset the extra tax that I’d have to pay up here v in the rUK. Hope more people wise up and do the same. Personally don’t agree that as a middle earner in Edinburgh my tax bill is nearly 2 grand a year more than someone 50 miles down the road in Berwick.What's a "middle earner"?

According to the report someone on £33k a year will pay an extra £5 a month (shade more, its actually £60.07 a year)... Thinking about where they're saying the revenue is going do you truly think those being forced to 'donate', those amounts are up in arms about it? I'm certainly not.

On a seperate note.. Unless you earn more than £123k the you'll pay less tax next year compared to this one. Its in great detail on BBC website... The above 'extra' is in comparison to rUK, and for that it's down to whether u like free prescriptions etc etc.

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On. Phone etc so not sure I got that last bit right... See link to see for yourself.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46546874

[weecounty hibby]

I am in the higher tax bracket and by using the Beeb ready reckoner I will be worse off by £16 per month. Happy to be so. I see we will get more investment in public services, still have free tuition, still have free prescriptions etc etc. Happy to pay a wee bit more so that overall we are in a better place as a country than any other withing the UK. Looks like a good budget to me

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I can live with higher taxation if we see standards starting to rise - its a pragmatic approach from me.

Whether we will or not, who knows. By the time the extra cash has passed through the political ringer, then been through the dead hands of the civil service, its effect is often nullified.

I note that most of the additional spending on health has come from Barnett consequentials. So that would be those nasty tories putting an extra 700m or so into NHS Scotland...😈

[James310]

McKay says Scotland is for the majority the lowest taxed part of the UK. How does that fit in with progressive and fighting austerity?

[JeMeSouviens]

McKay says Scotland is for the majority the lowest taxed part of the UK. How does that fit in with progressive and fighting austerity?

55% of tax payers are very marginally better off than rUK equivalents, £20 a year. The other 45% pay from a few £ to a couple of £K more, progressively rising with the tax bands. So, it is, in a very modest way, both the things you mention.

Similar to SSHB, I'm ok with it but we should expect to see a better result in services than if it these taxes were not raised*. Extremely difficult to get an objective measure of this, unfortunately,


* falling into the Tory spin trap there. Than if they were cut as per rUK is what I should have said.

[CropleyWasGod]

I’m just putting more money into my pension to offset the extra tax that I’d have to pay up here v in the rUK. Hope more people wise up and do the same. Personally don’t agree that as a middle earner in Edinburgh my tax bill is nearly 2 grand a year more than someone 50 miles down the road in Berwick.I wouldn't class someone who has a disparity of £2k in tax a "middle earner".

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[JeMeSouviens]

I wouldn't class someone who has a disparity of £2k in tax a "middle earner".

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Indeed. You'd have to be pushing towards £100K pa which would put you in the top couple of percentiles, if not the top.