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View Full Version : Legitimate goals disallowed in Edinburgh derbies



Diclonius
28-12-2017, 10:01 AM
In the last five years, I can think of three for us:

Griffiths free kick, March 2013 (finished 0-0, if goal had been given we'd have finished top 6)
Forster header given offside when we was miles onside, March 2014 at Tynecastle (game finished 0-2 but this would have been a late equaliser, could have saved us from relegation)
..and Shaw's goal last night.

3 let alone 1 in five years is completely unaccceptable. I'm not a conspiracy nutjob and happy to accept this is sheer incompetence, but that still isn't good enough. If this was the OF derby that linesman would be hounded out of football.

When was the last time they had a perfectly good goal disallowed? I genuinely can't think of one.

matty_f
28-12-2017, 10:05 AM
They carry some amount of 'luck' in these games. Of the three that you mention, we drew two and they won one (the Forster header) - a point in that game would have gone a long way to securing top flight football for us that season.

The derby where these things even themselves out should be a cracker.

Sir David Gray
28-12-2017, 10:07 AM
They carry some amount of 'luck' in these games. Of the three that you mention, we drew two and they won one (the Forster header) - a point in that game would have gone a long way to securing top flight football for us that season.

The derby where these things even themselves out should be a cracker.

If we get all the luck back in one 90 minutes, we should be eclipsing the 0-7 game.

Bristolhibby
28-12-2017, 10:07 AM
What is the cost for goal line technology? Obviously there are systems in England and across Europe. In this day and age it should be mandatatory for top flight SPFL. We should be helping these buffon referees not hindering them.

J

matty_f
28-12-2017, 10:09 AM
What is the cost for goal line technology? Obviously there are systems in England and across Europe. In this day and age it should be mandatatory for top flight SPFL. We should be helping these buffon referees not hindering them.

J

We don't even need the goalline technology, a video ref would have needed one look at that last night to get the decision right.

Firestarter
28-12-2017, 10:11 AM
They carry some amount of 'luck' in these games. Of the three that you mention, we drew two and they won one (the Forster header) - a point in that game would have gone a long way to securing top flight football for us that season.

The derby where these things even themselves out should be a cracker.

Guaranteed there's even more that because we win that we forget about.

For example, there's no online evidence of this but I'm 100% sure we got a goal disallowed for sod all in the 6-2 Game. Mixu ups have had 4

S4uzee
28-12-2017, 10:13 AM
Let’s not forget how many retrospective red cards they’ve had. McGowan, Stevenson, templeton all come to mind

Firestarter
28-12-2017, 10:15 AM
Let’s not forget how many retrospective red cards they’ve had. McGowan, Stevenson, templeton all come to mind

Fantastic point. All "missed" by the ref. Ian Black on sparky too not even a foul given.

JimBHibees
28-12-2017, 10:15 AM
Let’s not forget how many retrospective red cards they’ve had. McGowan, Stevenson, templeton all come to mind

All of which I think were in the first half of games 2 of which by Collum yet they think he has it in for them.

Winston Ingram
28-12-2017, 10:16 AM
It looked in from where I was sat but I knew it wouldn’t be given. Ref’s in Scotland usually ***** it and that’s exactly what he did.

ajf
28-12-2017, 10:44 AM
Cummings scored a perfectly good goal at 0-0 in the 2-2 Scottish cup draw the year we won it ,Craig Thompson gave offside but the dvd clearly shows Jason was onside

matty_f
28-12-2017, 10:44 AM
Cummings scored a perfectly good goal at 0-0 in the 2-2 Scottish cup draw the year we won it ,Craig Thompson gave offside but the dvd clearly shows Jason was onside

Well remembered. He was onside and that should have stood. :agree:

emerald green
28-12-2017, 10:56 AM
The more and more "decisions" I've seen like last night's one (legitimate goal not given) the more convinced I have become that it's not ALL down to sheer incompetence. Not every time surely?

erin go bragh
28-12-2017, 11:33 AM
What is the cost for goal line technology? Obviously there are systems in England and across Europe. In this day and age it should be mandatatory for top flight SPFL. We should be helping these buffon referees not hindering them.

J
Pretty sure I read it costs a million. But for Sky to broadcast the game and have a nationwide audience watching a perfectly good goal not given .
What’s the odds on us getting goal line technology and it gets used against us v them .

davym7062
28-12-2017, 11:39 AM
Not forgetting the outside the box penalty in that cup final 😡

Argylehibby
28-12-2017, 02:41 PM
Let’s not forget how many retrospective red cards they’ve had. McGowan, Stevenson, templeton all come to mind

Walkers on that list as well but wee Lewis got done for the same incident. Templetons was first half and one or both of Stephensons and McGowans were first half.

Add to that when Grant Brebner was sent off and the card rescinded a minute or so before it one of then got booked for skelping one of our guys which should have been a red. If your looking before the retrospective stuff came into force who can forget Neil Berrys "tackle" on Paul Wright that he never fully recovered from. Getting cheated when we play them is nothing new.

Hibernian Verse
28-12-2017, 02:43 PM
McGregor scored a 4th for us in the 3-1 game recently that was "offside"

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Geo_1875
28-12-2017, 02:46 PM
Walkers on that list as well but wee Lewis got done for the same incident. Templetons was first half and one or both of Stephensons and McGowans were first half.

Add to that when Grant Brebner was sent off and the card rescinded a minute or so before it one of then got booked for skelping one of our guys which should have been a red. If your looking before the retrospective stuff came into force who can forget Neil Berrys "tackle" on Paul Wright that he never fully recovered from. Getting cheated when we play them is nothing new.

And Berra's impression of a brown trout.

StevieCowan
28-12-2017, 02:56 PM
Let’s not forget how many retrospective red cards they’ve had. McGowan, Stevenson, templeton all come to mind

Ekersley for his head butt within 3 mins at ER

Ozyhibby
28-12-2017, 03:06 PM
The cost of these systems can’t be measured in pounds alone, you have to factor in the refs not being able to look after Sevco and the yams as easily. The SFA couldn’t have that.


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Clarence
28-12-2017, 03:06 PM
In the 6-2 game, Mixu's first goal should have counted and Colin Cameron's goal at the end should have been disallowed because he illegally shielded the ball by sitting on it. So it really should have been 7-1. Right that's enough pity. Onwards and upwards!

21.05.2016
28-12-2017, 03:07 PM
Multiple retrospective red cards (McGowan, Stevenson, Templeton)
Jordon Forsters disallowed goal
Jason Cummings disallowed goal in the 2-2 game
The Sparky free kick
Ian Black managing to stay on the pitch in the final
The cup final penalty clearly outside the box that took the game beyond our reach just as we had grabbed a lifeline before HT
The Shaw goal last night



The luck they carry against us in derbies is utterly astonishing. Now i'm not saying we haven't been awarded dodgy decisions against them also but just look at that list, thats truly ridiculous. Huge, game changing decisions that they got away with. I mean 4 perfectly legitimate goals chopped off against them in nearly as many years, I mean that alone is unbelievable.

Hibernia&Alba
28-12-2017, 03:10 PM
No doubt at all we've been the more hard done by in recent years. Some appalling officiating, which, strangely enough, almost always seems to go against us. Very good points about the goals ruled out, the retrospective red cards and the disgraceful penalty on that awful day in 2012. All against us.

Hiber-nation
28-12-2017, 03:40 PM
Ally Mauchlen stamping on Darren Jackson's chest. Play on...

Famous Fiver
28-12-2017, 04:24 PM
Mackays racist abuse of Kevin Harper.

Not punished.

Hibernia&Alba
28-12-2017, 04:26 PM
Ally Mauchlen stamping on Darren Jackson's chest. Play on...

Mauchlen was a lunatic.

21.05.2016
28-12-2017, 04:29 PM
McGregor scored a 4th for us in the 3-1 game recently that was "offside"

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Right enough, forgot about that one! Perfectly fine goal. At least that one didn't affect the outcome of the game but still, a 4th would have been nice.

Billy Whizz
28-12-2017, 04:31 PM
Noticed last night on the replay, Berra puts his hand up, and the game played on after Oli’s goal. Did he think he was the Linesman?

where'stheslope
28-12-2017, 04:54 PM
Just looked at the highlights again at the goal, and if I'm honest I would say Shaw looks offside from the through ball and never seemed to go back onside although the final ball is a cut back?
In that case the linesman has made 2 glaring errors in the same incident????
I looked at this as the Yams were all saying this, and I never take their word for anything!!!!

calumhibee1
28-12-2017, 05:01 PM
Just looked at the highlights again at the goal, and if I'm honest I would say Shaw looks offside from the through ball and never seemed to go back onside although the final ball is a cut back?
In that case the linesman has made 2 glaring errors in the same incident????
I looked at this as the Yams were all saying this, and I never take their word for anything!!!!

The ball has to be played forward to be offside. I've not watched it back yet but if it is cutback or even a square ball from Boyle then he's onside.

JimBHibees
28-12-2017, 05:07 PM
The ball has to be played forward to be offside. I've not watched it back yet but if it is cutback or even a square ball from Boyle then he's onside.

It was a square ball no way it was offside yams trying to deflect from the appalling decision.

erin go bragh
28-12-2017, 05:56 PM
I remember Brebner getting sent off early doors in a derby at ER . We still won but his red was downgraded to a yellow .
We never seem to get anything but injustices against that lot .

leither17
28-12-2017, 05:59 PM
McGregor scored a 4th for us in the 3-1 game recently that was "offside"

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I had him to score anytime and last scorer in that game it cost me about 300 in winnings

wookie70
28-12-2017, 06:05 PM
It was a square ball no way it was offside yams trying to deflect from the appalling decision.

The direction the ball travels is irrelevant, So is Boyle's position. It is the ball position at the point of the pass that counts not the passing player or the direction the ball travels.

Say Shaw was nearer Hearts goal line than the ball and the second last defender. Boyle cuts it back and Shaw goes back towards his own goal before scoring. He would be offside from a cut back. From FIFA. The SFA use the same rule but our officials seem to have some very odd interpretations of the rules including the one on the position the ball has to be in to score a goal.

Offside position if:
• Nearer to his opponents’ goal line
than both the ball and the second last
opponent.

Kato
28-12-2017, 06:37 PM
The direction the ball travels is irrelevant, So is Boyle's position. It is the ball position at the point of the pass that counts not the passing player or the direction the ball travels.

Say Shaw was nearer Hearts goal line than the ball and the second last defender. Boyle cuts it back and Shaw goes back towards his own goal before scoring. He would be offside from a cut back. From FIFA. The SFA use the same rule but our officials seem to have some very odd interpretations of the rules including the one on the position the ball has to be in to score a goal.

Offside position if:
• Nearer to his opponents’ goal line
than both the ball and the second last
opponent.



New one on me. Have they done away with the part of the offside law that says a player is offside if the ball is played forward - any cut back or straight in l I'm ne pass always meant the player was onside.

Spike Mandela
28-12-2017, 06:58 PM
The direction the ball travels is irrelevant, So is Boyle's position. It is the ball position at the point of the pass that counts not the passing player or the direction the ball travels.

Say Shaw was nearer Hearts goal line than the ball and the second last defender. Boyle cuts it back and Shaw goes back towards his own goal before scoring. He would be offside from a cut back. From FIFA. The SFA use the same rule but our officials seem to have some very odd interpretations of the rules including the one on the position the ball has to be in to score a goal.

Offside position if:
• Nearer to his opponents’ goal line
than both the ball and the second last
opponent.

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afdeveloping/refereeing/5.%20law%2011_554.pdf

He has to be ahead of the ball and the opponent. If it is a square ball or a cut back he is at least level with the ball so ONSIDE.

eezyrider
28-12-2017, 07:47 PM
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afdeveloping/refereeing/5.%20law%2011_554.pdf

He has to be ahead of the ball and the opponent. If it is a square ball or a cut back he is at least level with the ball so ONSIDE.

This.

If the ball was squared or cut back he is behind the ball and can't be offside.

EZ

eezyrider
28-12-2017, 07:50 PM
Pretty sure I read it costs a million. But for Sky to broadcast the game and have a nationwide audience watching a perfectly good goal not given .
What’s the odds on us getting goal line technology and it gets used against us v them .

A million? That's a lot for what is in essence a glorified camera.

Horse racing have photo finish technology - couldn't something like that be adapted?

EZ

Skol
28-12-2017, 07:56 PM
The direction the ball travels is irrelevant, So is Boyle's position. It is the ball position at the point of the pass that counts not the passing player or the direction the ball travels.

Say Shaw was nearer Hearts goal line than the ball and the second last defender. Boyle cuts it back and Shaw goes back towards his own goal before scoring. He would be offside from a cut back. From FIFA. The SFA use the same rule but our officials seem to have some very odd interpretations of the rules including the one on the position the ball has to be in to score a goal.

Offside position if:
• Nearer to his opponents’ goal line
than both the ball and the second last
opponent.


I am not sure that is physically possible ? In theory yes it could happen but at the pace of the game its highly unlikely

Silky
28-12-2017, 08:53 PM
This.

If the ball was squared or cut back he is behind the ball and can't be offside.

EZ

I think that FIFA document is crap. When you look at the examples for onside/offside with "the ball", I think the attacker in the "onside" example is offside as his foot is ahead of the defender. The yellow line is also squint

Joe6-2
28-12-2017, 09:03 PM
What is the cost for goal line technology? Obviously there are systems in England and across Europe. In this day and age it should be mandatatory for top flight SPFL. We should be helping these buffon referees not hindering them.

J

They shouldn’t need help with basic footballing decisions

21.05.2016
28-12-2017, 09:27 PM
It was a square ball no way it was offside yams trying to deflect from the appalling decision.

The yams ken fine well it was a perfectly legitamate goal. Trying to claim it was offside and also that they were denied a penalty are simply pathetic attempts at making out everything evened out and that they didn't (yet again) get a massive get out of jail free card in a derby.

They are breathing a massive sigh of relief. Once again blessed with a truly outrageous decision in their favour. Their luck in derbies knows no bounds. If it's true what they say and it really does all "even itself out eventually" then boy are we in for one hell of a treat!

nonshinyfinish
28-12-2017, 09:41 PM
New one on me. Have they done away with the part of the offside law that says a player is offside if the ball is played forward - any cut back or straight in l I'm ne pass always meant the player was onside.

That's never been the actual rule, but it's often described in those terms because it's accurate in the majority of real-world situations. The relevant rule is that you can't be offside if you are behind (or level) with the ball.

As mentioned above you can be offside if you're ahead of the ball, it's played back, and you run back to collect it. It just hardly ever comes up.

Kato
28-12-2017, 09:56 PM
That's never been the actual rule, but it's often described in those terms because it's accurate in the majority of real-world situations. The relevant rule is that you can't be offside if you are behind (or level) with the ball.

As mentioned above you can be offside if you're ahead of the ball, it's played back, and you run back to collect it. It just hardly ever comes up.

Then either the wording doesn't work, in cases of the latter occurrence, or it means what it says "offside if the ball is played forward". You can only take the wording as read otherwise the laws are open to any ol' interpretation any ref wants to infer. Which, lets face it, is what happens with SFA refs. In this fixture recently there have been some bizarre decisions, anyone would think the powers at be were desperate to give hertz a wee fillip after their financial woes. They'v even arranged Scottish Cup tie after Scottish Cup tie, year on year in the vain hope of a Jamboid victory.

Kato
28-12-2017, 09:59 PM
That's never been the actual rule, but it's often described in those terms because it's accurate in the majority of real-world situations. The relevant rule is that you can't be offside if you are behind (or level) with the ball.

As mentioned above you can be offside if you're ahead of the ball, it's played back, and you run back to collect it. It just hardly ever comes up.

Just thought of something. What about corners. Let's say the goalie and an attacking player are on the line. The ball comes over and the attacker moves toward his own goal and headers the ball back into the net. Is he offside?

CropleyWasGod
28-12-2017, 10:07 PM
.

nonshinyfinish
28-12-2017, 10:18 PM
Just thought of something. What about corners. Let's say the goalie and an attacking player are on the line. The ball comes over and the attacker moves toward his own goal and headers the ball back into the net. Is he offside?

No, because he started out in line with or behind the ball.

The direction the ball is played doesn't matter; the relevant thing is that you cannot be offside if you are behind/in line with the ball.

nonshinyfinish
28-12-2017, 10:21 PM
Then either the wording doesn't work, in cases of the latter occurrence, or it means what it says "offside if the ball is played forward".

Why?

It doesn't matter that the player is inline with/behind the ball by the time he collects it, because as with any offside decision it's when the ball is played that counts. He is ahead of both the ball and all but one defending players, therefore he is in an offside position when the ball is played) and will be flagged if he goes for the ball.

Winston Ingram
28-12-2017, 10:46 PM
The ball has to be played forward to be offside. I've not watched it back yet but if it is cutback or even a square ball from Boyle then he's onside.

Boyle is ahead of Shaw when he plays it

wookie70
29-12-2017, 12:09 AM
Then either the wording doesn't work, in cases of the latter occurrence, or it means what it says "offside if the ball is played forward". You can only take the wording as read otherwise the laws are open to any ol' interpretation any ref wants to infer.

The wording is both accurate and fairly easy to understand if you ignore everything most football fans have said about offside for decades. It definitely doesn't mean when the ball is played forward and you just takes the words as they are written. I think the pictures on the FIFA site actually explain it quite well.

The man playing the pass is irrelevant as is the direction the pass is played. All that matters is being in line or behind the ball or two opponents as the ball is played in any direction. At a corner the ball is deemed to be on the bye line(that is one of the reasons for the quadrant) so you cannot be in front of the ball therefore cannot be offside.

matty_f
29-12-2017, 12:21 AM
Boyle is ahead of Shaw when he plays it

Yep. Hearts are pathetically clutching at straws about a goal that wasn't even given.


It must ****ing suck to be them.

kaimendhibs
29-12-2017, 01:21 AM
We don't even need the goalline technology, a video ref would have needed one look at that last night to get the decision right.I agree. BUT, GFA wont want it because the decisions Sevco, Celtc and aye, Hearts get in thier favour would be done. It would be too fair and thats not on

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Firestarter
29-12-2017, 01:45 AM
No need for goal line technology. Do what they do in Italy, laptop side of the pitch and ref stops game. Problem solved.

JimBHibees
29-12-2017, 01:00 PM
The direction the ball travels is irrelevant, So is Boyle's position. It is the ball position at the point of the pass that counts not the passing player or the direction the ball travels.

Say Shaw was nearer Hearts goal line than the ball and the second last defender. Boyle cuts it back and Shaw goes back towards his own goal before scoring. He would be offside from a cut back. From FIFA. The SFA use the same rule but our officials seem to have some very odd interpretations of the rules including the one on the position the ball has to be in to score a goal.

Offside position if:
• Nearer to his opponents’ goal line
than both the ball and the second last
opponent.


Nonsense you can't be offside from a cut back.

CropleyWasGod
29-12-2017, 01:22 PM
Nonsense you can't be offside from a cut back.

Yes you can.

If a player runs back from an offside position to collect a cut-back, he's offside.

wookie70
29-12-2017, 01:26 PM
Nonsense you can't be offside from a cut back.

It's a popular misconception but you are wrong

JimBHibees
29-12-2017, 01:32 PM
Yes you can.

If a player runs back from an offside position to collect a cut-back, he's offside.

Honestly didn't know that. :aok:

JimBHibees
29-12-2017, 01:32 PM
It's a popular misconception but you are wrong

Ok cheers. :aok:

thebakerboy
29-12-2017, 02:10 PM
In the 6-2 game, Mixu's first goal should have counted and Colin Cameron's goal at the end should have been disallowed because he illegally shielded the ball by sitting on it. So it really should have been 7-1. Right that's enough pity. Onwards and upwards!

Just watched that game on Skysports and you are right about Mixus goal , not sure about other one though.

hibbyfraelibby
29-12-2017, 02:53 PM
That's never been the actual rule, but it's often described in those terms because it's accurate in the majority of real-world situations. The relevant rule is that you can't be offside if you are behind (or level) with the ball.

As mentioned above you can be offside if you're ahead of the ball, it's played back, and you run back to collect it. It just hardly ever comes up.

Happened to Simon Murray. He was in opposition half ball played behind him ran back into his own half and played the ball and off side free kick given to opposition in Hibs half, correctly, by Gollum/Smeagul. Hamilton game If I recall.

wookie70
29-12-2017, 02:56 PM
Happened to Simon Murray. He was in opposition half ball played behind him ran back into his own half and played the ball and off side free kick given to opposition in Hibs half, correctly, by Gollum/Smeagul. Hamilton game If I recall.

I remember that and there was huge uproar in the west upper. I was just surprised the ref and lino got it right when they miss so many obvious fouls. For Scottish football to improve we really need to get referees to blow up for fouls and start taking action earlier.

ancient hibee
29-12-2017, 03:05 PM
The SFA are heads in the sand too often.I remember that during the row after the Griffiths free kick the Head of Refereeing(Fleming I think) said that the referee and the linesman were in the perfect positions for the free kick as laid down in the guidelines.To me it seemed obvious that one of the things that could happen from a direct free kick is that a goal is scored.A goal was scored but neither official was in a position to see it.I emailed the SFA pointing out that if these were the "perfect positions"then the thinking was seriously flawed.Answer came there none.

Deansy
29-12-2017, 03:22 PM
McGregor scored a 4th for us in the 3-1 game recently that was "offside"

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100% in agreement !! I've just watched it again (02:50) couldn't believe it then and still can't believe it now that it was disallowed - it was neither offside nor a foul !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_EU_XKKl0c

where'stheslope
29-12-2017, 04:18 PM
The ball has to be played forward to be offside. I've not watched it back yet but if it is cutback or even a square ball from Boyle then he's onside.

You have misinterpreted what I said from the initial through pass and not Boyle's cut back, he looks offside?