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G B Young
17-12-2017, 08:40 PM
This time last week I was very content with the start we'd made to an exceptionally demanding month. An away win at Thistle followed by a draw with the champions was as much as we could realistically have expected from those games.

Even defeat to the Rangers didn't unsettle me unduly given that it was a game we really could have won. However, the implosion at Pittodrie yesterday coupled by that bizarre result at Tynecastle today has really turned everything on its head. Yesterday, for the first time since the Butcher days I felt I was back watching the Hibs of old. A team that, as Lennon said, looked capable of losing to anyone.

My fear is that the Hibs of old, once they hit a sticky spell, took a long time to shake it off - and I suppose those sort of fears run deep when you've been watching Hibs for as long as I have. I guess the hope has to be that the 'new Hibs' we have seen since we laid the Scottish Cup bogey to rest are mentally strong enough to shake off results like yesterday and bounce back with a trio of good results to end the year. Do that and we'll be well set for the resumption after the winter break, especially with a couple of new signings in the fold.

As the last week has shown, things can change remarkably quickly in football so here's hoping the next fortnight proves that the pendulum can just as quickly swing back in our favour. It'll be a test of Lennon's mettle as a manger that's for sure.

As for the yams, this time last week they were being slated for their lumpen lack of style as they scraped a narrow win over Motherwell - their first win since October. Who could have predicted they'd end the week just three points behind us, having fallen 11 behind just a fortnight ago?!

hibby6270
17-12-2017, 08:58 PM
I said something very similar on another thread. Sounds like your a long in the tooth fan like me (in other words - older generation) and have seen it all before. I hope we are both wrong and the recent run doesn’t turn in to our usual limp to the end of the season.

This season, top 6 should be our minimum aim. Anything higher than that a bonus. History and stats tell us it’s more likely to be the former.

Go on Hibs. Prove me wrong!!

Lancs Harp
17-12-2017, 09:03 PM
Despite yesterday still heading for the top 4 for me. Will be a bit disappointed to finish 5th or lower. We're better than Motherwell St johnstone and Hearts.

Keep the faith.

G B Young
17-12-2017, 09:05 PM
I said something very similar on another thread. Sounds like your a long in the tooth fan like me (in other words - older generation) and have seen it all before. I hope we are both wrong and the recent run doesn’t turn in to our usual limp to the end of the season.

This season, top 6 should be our minimum aim. Anything higher than that a bonus. History and stats tell us it’s more likely to be the former.

Go on Hibs. Prove me wrong!!

I'd have taken top 6 before the season started as I felt the key was simply to ensure we re-established ourselves as a top flight side. However, the way Lennon approaches things with such positivity he made me wonder if I was being too cautious. However, once you start to think there's actually no reason we can't target second place you set yourself up for a fall. As you say, though, here's hoping Hibs can prove us wrong and bounce back quickly.

Zazu62
17-12-2017, 09:10 PM
We are looking soft as **** at the back. Leaking goals left right and centre. Both right backs are carrying injuries and our keeper looks like he has just started playing football.

Pretty Boy
17-12-2017, 09:17 PM
The last time we had a bad run we bounced back with 4 straight wins. Hopefully we can do similar again.

For the most part performances have ranged from ok to very good in the last few weeks, with a couple of exceptions, but results haven’t reflected that and at this time of the year when games come thick and fast it’s results that really matter. The last 3 were a tough run of games but after getting a point from Celtic in the 1st to only take 1 point from 9 is disappointing.

For me the most important thing is improving our home record. WLDLWWLDL isn’t really very good reading and highlights why we will slide down the league if teams below us start hitting form and we don’t improve ours at home. It’s worth noting we have only scored more than 2 goals 3 times in the league (Rangers, Kilmarnock and Partick Thistle) and only one of those has come at home. That puts a lot of pressure on the defence who know every goal conceded could well prove crucial as games are never really put to bed no matter how well we play.

It’s been a decent (nearly) half of the season but it feels like it could have been better and it doesn’t seem to be anything that can’t be rectified that stands in the way of it being better. Unfortunately a few of the issues are persistent ones though.

21.05.2016
17-12-2017, 09:22 PM
I thought similarly but hopefully with someone like Lennon in charge we wont fall back into that. He was furious after yesterdays performance and hopefully has come down hard on them. Time will tell though.

GreenCastle
17-12-2017, 09:29 PM
Despite yesterday still heading for the top 4 for me. Will be a bit disappointed to finish 5th or lower. We're better than Motherwell St johnstone and Hearts.

Keep the faith.

Agreed - I’ve seen enough this season to see we have a decent team.

But we do need more depth and options.

ancient hibee
17-12-2017, 10:28 PM
We are looking soft as **** at the back. Leaking goals left right and centre. Both right backs are carrying injuries and our keeper looks like he has just started playing football.
Except until a couple of games ago we were second or third best for goals against.

Jones28
17-12-2017, 10:34 PM
It's been a funny old week that's for sure. The demands of the fixture list certainly looked like they'd taken their toll yesterday, however that is no excuse for what was a horrible look back to the Butcher days.

For me Lennon has to take some responsibility there by not mixing the side up a bit. What have Slivka et al got to do to get an opportunity? Instead of bring hung on an injured 33 year old yesterday why not bring in porteous? We seem very reluctant to give youth a chance.

Ross County is a must win game now for me.

Libby Hibby
17-12-2017, 10:52 PM
I think this week has shown is that Hibs are not the 2nd best side in Scotland and Hearts are not as bad as they have been playing previously.

If anything, the Hibs result v Aberdeen could be a good thing for us, only if the side learn from it. Perversely, the Hearts result v Celtic will ensure that we know what to expect at Tynecastle.

Before all that, we need to beat Ross County on Saturday, a game which is massive for so many reasons.

S4uzee
17-12-2017, 11:46 PM
Quite an incredible week really and something nobody would’ve predicted. Funny old game

Nakedmanoncrack
18-12-2017, 01:08 AM
Despite yesterday still heading for the top 4 for me. Will be a bit disappointed to finish 5th or lower. We're better than Motherwell St johnstone and Hearts.

Keep the faith.

Should always be disappointed with anything less than top 4, which is where we are actually sitting.
So many people throw the towel in so easily, one heavy defeat and thats it we are crap & all the teams who we have a points advantage over are sure to finish above us. Does anyone think Celtic who had a heavier defeat than us are thinking along similar defeatist terms? Or Sevco who were hammered 3-1 at home? Of course not, unfortunately aiming low and settling for mediocrity has been the Hibs way for so long that many are afraid to aim any higher.

Spike Mandela
18-12-2017, 09:45 AM
I’m not losing faith in this team. Them and the manager are a talented bunch of grafters.

I simply put the Aberdenn result down to playing the 3 best teams in the league in the space of 6 days. A punishing schedule for even the best.

Expecting a response versus Ross Co and Hearts.

NAE NOOKIE
18-12-2017, 01:19 PM
After the Yams best result in years on Sunday and our poorest performance in about three seasons on Saturday folk seem to be getting a bit carried away with how they are judging the current state of affairs.

I've seen our second half performance against Celtic dismissed as an irrelevance because they got slaughtered at the PBS as if a team with a 69 game unbeaten run were rubbish all along and we should have beaten them easily.

All of a sudden what was for all to see an excellent performance against the Huns was actually nothing because they still won and then lost at home to St Johnstone.

All of a sudden because they beat a Celtic team who were by all accounts well below par, have beaten a Motherwell team with the spine ripped out of it on the day and who had played Celtic 3 times in 10 days beforehand and then beaten a Dundee team whose manager tore into them after the game for their poor performance the Yams are world beaters.

All of a sudden we are rubbish because we had a terrible day at Pittodrie against an Aberdeen team who probably put in their best performance of the season and we were coming off the back of two of our hardest games of the season within a few days of that game. Not an excuse, but certainly a factor.

I'm not saying the Yams win against Celtic should be dismissed, you don't beat them 4 - 0 without putting in a performance of the season. I'm not saying Hibs performance against Aberdeen doesn't matter, its concerning that we could play so poorly and lose our shape and composure so badly in any game. But the Yams performance was without a doubt the absolutely best performance they are capable of and ours the very worst we can play. Both are performances you will see probably once a season.

The truth is the Yams are still capable stinking up the pitch and we are still capable of outplaying anybody on our day ..... Are the Yams capable of playing like they did against Celtic every week? Are we so inept that the Aberdeen game will become typical of us?

The answer to both questions is an emphatic NO :aok:

If the Yams go and beat St Johnstone 3 or 4 nil and we capitulate at home to Ross County I reserve the right to change my mind :greengrin

Dashing Bob S
18-12-2017, 02:02 PM
Celtic had a meltdown and lost 0-6 over 110 minutes in Edinburgh. Even PSG barely dismantled them so profoundly. Let's not big up the Yams (or for that matter ourselves) too much. It took us 20 minutes to score two against them, it took the Yams 90 to score four.

I think Hibs will be up for this derby.

Centre Hawf
18-12-2017, 02:13 PM
I thought similarly but hopefully with someone like Lennon in charge we wont fall back into that. He was furious after yesterdays performance and hopefully has come down hard on them. Time will tell though.

Come down hard on players all you like but it's not the one way to motivate them. This is what worries me about our fan base and Lennon at times. Yes we got gubbed and it's unacceptable. But people want Lennon to go through them (again, as if its not been done before under him) just like Butcher did. People claimed Butcher would whip us into shape and show them the level of expectation required. In actual fact he got them switched off and demotivated.

I'm not saying for a second Lennon is anywhere near that clown's level of man management but we can't just rely on an angry Neil Lennon to sort out problems from the weekend. We need to work out why we didn't take anything from our last two games, and what can he do to fix that? He needs to start showing a bit more in his management skill set to get us out of a difficult time before we're all of a sudden looking over our shoulder at 7th and 8th place instead of 4th and 5th.

easty
18-12-2017, 02:16 PM
Celtic had a meltdown and lost 0-6 over 110 minutes in Edinburgh. Even PSG barely dismantled them so profoundly. Let's not big up the Yams (or for that matter ourselves) too much. It took us 20 minutes to score two against them, it took the Yams 90 to score four.

I think Hibs will be up for this derby.

We'll definitely be up for the derby. It's actually embarrassing and ridiculous some of the crap that's been posted on this forum in the last few days. You'd think we were in a relegation battle with how bad our side apparently is.

Aye, we've only picked up 1 point from our last 3 games, before the games I'd probably have settled for 4 points. So it is disappointing. However, we did well against Celtc, we battered Rangers, it was one of those games that just happens sometimes where you don't get what you deserve, then we were pumped by Aberdeen. Those 3 games don't tell me we're a shambles, or we're never going to finish top 4, or any the other knee jerk reactions some have been having.

easty
18-12-2017, 02:21 PM
Come down hard on players all you like but it's not the one way to motivate them. This is what worries me about our fan base and Lennon at times. Yes we got gubbed and it's unacceptable. But people want Lennon to go through them (again, as if its not been done before under him) just like Butcher did. People claimed Butcher would whip us into shape and show them the level of expectation required. In actual fact he got them switched off and demotivated.

I'm not saying for a second Lennon is anywhere near that clown's level of man management but we can't just rely on an angry Neil Lennon to sort out problems from the weekend. We need to work out why we didn't take anything from our last two games, and what can he do to fix that? He needs to start showing a bit more in his management skill set to get us out of a difficult time before we're all of a sudden looking over our shoulder at 7th and 8th place instead of 4th and 5th.

Butcher was a diddy, but he was working with a squad of diddies tae. This squad is miles better, which is why we're 4th. You can come down hard on your players in a constructive manner, just telling them they're a bunch of *****bags isn't going to help obv, but who's to say Lennon isn't slating them whilst telling them where they need to be doing better, and what he expects? Who's to say that the players aren't responding in a way that sees them determined to improve, rather than have a wee cry to themselves about getting shouted at by the manager.

Smartie
18-12-2017, 02:21 PM
Come down hard on players all you like but it's not the one way to motivate them. This is what worries me about our fan base and Lennon at times. Yes we got gubbed and it's unacceptable. But people want Lennon to go through them (again, as if its not been done before under him) just like Butcher did. People claimed Butcher would whip us into shape and show them the level of expectation required. In actual fact he got them switched off and demotivated.

I'm not saying for a second Lennon is anywhere near that clown's level of man management but we can't just rely on an angry Neil Lennon to sort out problems from the weekend. We need to work out why we didn't take anything from our last two games, and what can he do to fix that? He needs to start showing a bit more in his management skill set to get us out of a difficult time before we're all of a sudden looking over our shoulder at 7th and 8th place instead of 4th and 5th.

I don't think you lose motivation when someone goes through you deservedly.

Lennon was probably justified if he went through the players after Hamilton at home and then Saturday.

If he does it every time a player makes a mistake, it's a different story. That's where Butcher went wrong - all he had was the angry approach.

I do think Lennon has it easier than Butcher, in that I believe our current players will respond to Saturday, improve their performances and earn praise.

We ended up in a difficult place under Butcher. What are you meant to do when the players are crap, lose every week and deserve criticism?

Centre Hawf
18-12-2017, 02:33 PM
Butcher was a diddy, but he was working with a squad of diddies tae. This squad is miles better, which is why we're 4th. You can come down hard on your players in a constructive manner, just telling them they're a bunch of *****bags isn't going to help obv, but who's to say Lennon isn't slating them whilst telling them where they need to be doing better, and what he expects? Who's to say that the players aren't responding in a way that sees them determined to improve, rather than have a wee cry to themselves about getting shouted at by the manager.


I don't think you lose motivation when someone goes through you deservedly.

Lennon was probably justified if he went through the players after Hamilton at home and then Saturday.

If he does it every time a player makes a mistake, it's a different story. That's where Butcher went wrong - all he had was the angry approach.

I do think Lennon has it easier than Butcher, in that I believe our current players will respond to Saturday, improve their performances and earn praise.

We ended up in a difficult place under Butcher. What are you meant to do when the players are crap, lose every week and deserve criticism?

I agree with both your posts. My main point was more that it's not as simple as going through them each time they have a nightmare but more to work out why that nightmare happened. I'm sure as Easty says he probably is doing that, but the fact is I need to see it out on the pitch for me to have faith its happened. The past 2 months I've unfortunately seen us make similar mistakes and constant chopping and changing of the team. That's what worries me more at this point in time. Not the application and desire of our players.

Jim44
18-12-2017, 02:51 PM
Despite yesterday still heading for the top 4 for me. Will be a bit disappointed to finish 5th or lower. We're better than Motherwell St johnstone and Hearts.

Keep the faith.

We’re better than them but only if we are at our best and that’s the issue. Can we overcome our perennial problem of dropping off in quality.

Deeds
18-12-2017, 03:30 PM
I think the boys suffered from a physically and mentally demanding week, we need to figure out how to win without maybe playing startling football with 2 wingers every week because they don’t always perform, which is the nature of players in these positions.

Look at Aberdeen against us at ER for example - they finished the game with 4 of 5 centre backs and took the points up the road.

Onion
18-12-2017, 03:44 PM
No comparison between this Hibs squad and Butcher's Blunderers. Fat too much quality in the side to allow one bad game (first away loss in months) to derail them and I fully expect (with Lennon in charge) for them to regroup and use the Aberdeen horror show as motivation for the next few matches. God help the Hearts :thumbsup:

JimBHibees
18-12-2017, 03:45 PM
I think the boys suffered from a physically and mentally demanding week, we need to figure out how to win without maybe playing startling football with 2 wingers every week because they don’t always perform, which is the nature of players in these positions.

Look at Aberdeen against us at ER for example - they finished the game with 4 of 5 centre backs and took the points up the road.

Agree first start would be not gifting goals, better performance from all parts of the team defensively as some of the goals have been pub league.

G B Young
18-12-2017, 04:11 PM
Come down hard on players all you like but it's not the one way to motivate them. This is what worries me about our fan base and Lennon at times. Yes we got gubbed and it's unacceptable. But people want Lennon to go through them (again, as if its not been done before under him) just like Butcher did. People claimed Butcher would whip us into shape and show them the level of expectation required. In actual fact he got them switched off and demotivated.

I'm not saying for a second Lennon is anywhere near that clown's level of man management but we can't just rely on an angry Neil Lennon to sort out problems from the weekend. We need to work out why we didn't take anything from our last two games, and what can he do to fix that? He needs to start showing a bit more in his management skill set to get us out of a difficult time before we're all of a sudden looking over our shoulder at 7th and 8th place instead of 4th and 5th.

I'm sure he left the players under no illusions about their performance on Saturday, but in his radio interview he said you don't really get a response if you just rant and rave at them as they'll simply sit staring at the floor. IMHO Lennon's criticism is intelligent and measured, at least in public. Even in the wake of that bust-up with Duffy last season, there was a lot he said which I agreed with. I think he gets the balance right between talking his players up (arguably a little too much at times) and criticising them when it's deserved. For me, that's what Hibs have needed for many years. A boss capable of instilling belief in his players that they CAN be better than simply makeweights in the league coupled with a bit of steel that commands their respect.

He's a clever, articulate bloke who seems to know exactly what he wants from a football team but perhaps what has taken him time to adjust to is the fact the sort of players Hibs can sign are, by and large, of a lesser quality than Celtic's. I think he's come to realise that on occasion and modified his approach accordingly. It's our first season back in the top flight and by that token a learning curve. Until Saturday we were were doing pretty well and I retain faith in Lennon to get things back on track.

G B Young
18-12-2017, 04:18 PM
After the Yams best result in years on Sunday and our poorest performance in about three seasons on Saturday folk seem to be getting a bit carried away with how they are judging the current state of affairs.

I've seen our second half performance against Celtic dismissed as an irrelevance because they got slaughtered at the PBS as if a team with a 69 game unbeaten run were rubbish all along and we should have beaten them easily.

All of a sudden what was for all to see an excellent performance against the Huns was actually nothing because they still won and then lost at home to St Johnstone.

All of a sudden because they beat a Celtic team who were by all accounts well below par, have beaten a Motherwell team with the spine ripped out of it on the day and who had played Celtic 3 times in 10 days beforehand and then beaten a Dundee team whose manager tore into them after the game for their poor performance the Yams are world beaters.

All of a sudden we are rubbish because we had a terrible day at Pittodrie against an Aberdeen team who probably put in their best performance of the season and we were coming off the back of two of our hardest games of the season within a few days of that game. Not an excuse, but certainly a factor.

I'm not saying the Yams win against Celtic should be dismissed, you don't beat them 4 - 0 without putting in a performance of the season. I'm not saying Hibs performance against Aberdeen doesn't matter, its concerning that we could play so poorly and lose our shape and composure so badly in any game. But the Yams performance was without a doubt the absolutely best performance they are capable of and ours the very worst we can play. Both are performances you will see probably once a season.

The truth is the Yams are still capable stinking up the pitch and we are still capable of outplaying anybody on our day ..... Are the Yams capable of playing like they did against Celtic every week? Are we so inept that the Aberdeen game will become typical of us?

The answer to both questions is an emphatic NO :aok:

If the Yams go and beat St Johnstone 3 or 4 nil and we capitulate at home to Ross County I reserve the right to change my mind :greengrin

Well put and very much how I like to think the land lies. I think one of the reasons the weekend's developments seemed especially demoralising is because that for a long while now we've enjoyed Hibs being on an upward curve both on and off the pitch and Hearts seemingly marooned in mediocrity. I'd forgotten how hideous it feels to see Hibs on the end of a thumping and how nauseating a crowing yam can be.

Dashing Bob S
18-12-2017, 09:44 PM
We'll definitely be up for the derby. It's actually embarrassing and ridiculous some of the crap that's been posted on this forum in the last few days. You'd think we were in a relegation battle with how bad our side apparently is.

Aye, we've only picked up 1 point from our last 3 games, before the games I'd probably have settled for 4 points. So it is disappointing. However, we did well against Celtc, we battered Rangers, it was one of those games that just happens sometimes where you don't get what you deserve, then we were pumped by Aberdeen. Those 3 games don't tell me we're a shambles, or we're never going to finish top 4, or any the other knee jerk reactions some have been having.

I hear you brother. Mofo’s need to take a chill pill.

Borderhibbie76
18-12-2017, 11:28 PM
We'll definitely be up for the derby. It's actually embarrassing and ridiculous some of the crap that's been posted on this forum in the last few days. You'd think we were in a relegation battle with how bad our side apparently is.

Aye, we've only picked up 1 point from our last 3 games, before the games I'd probably have settled for 4 points. So it is disappointing. However, we did well against Celtc, we battered Rangers, it was one of those games that just happens sometimes where you don't get what you deserve, then we were pumped by Aberdeen. Those 3 games don't tell me we're a shambles, or we're never going to finish top 4, or any the other knee jerk reactions some have been having.Spot on mate the overreacting on here since Sat is frankly pathetic. It appears we've became a dreadful side in the last few days and everything that has gone before has been forgotten. I hope the squad have a bit more backbone than some on here

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