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Stuart93
14-12-2017, 12:09 AM
For being our marquee signing...he's just not cutting it right now for me. Lennon said a few weeks ago we'd say a "different Anthony stokes", I've seen no change really.

MWHIBBIES
14-12-2017, 12:18 AM
3 huns on him every time he got it. This stopped him from playing but allowed others space, they missed their chances.

J-C
14-12-2017, 12:54 AM
Had the touch of an elephant tonight and seemed oblivious to the players around him when he got caught with the ball umpteen times, looks to be carrying a few pounds round the gut also.

shetlandhibee
14-12-2017, 01:10 AM
Had the touch of an elephant tonight and seemed oblivious to the players around him when he got caught with the ball umpteen times, looks to be carrying a few pounds round the gut also.
some touches were sublime like the one on left wing to st up barker near the end, touch was good most of the night but he couldent run with it and seemed to be slow at times and lost possesion more than usual IMO not fully fit:agree:

NAE NOOKIE
14-12-2017, 01:53 AM
I don't know what the problem is .. but if anybody is seriously saying 3 goals from open play 18 games into our season is anything like acceptable from a player we moved heaven and earth to sign then they must be hell of an easy pleased. I have seen Hibs players with half the talent and a quarter of his experience get hammered on here in the past for an output like that.

Oli Shaw didn't do much tonight to show he is ready to be a starting striker, but I'm sure his time will come.

Simon Murray is a hard working not bad player, but it doesn't look like he is going to be anything like a 20 goals a season striker.

Mateluvicius is clearly heading out the door, Neil Lennon obviously doesn't rate him at all, which begs the question 'why the hell did he sign him?'.

We need to sign a striker in January .......... unfortunately the hardest and most expensive position to fill in any team.

CMurdoch
14-12-2017, 01:57 AM
Clever player with a great touch but his fitness doesn't seem right which is why he is getting caught in possession far to often.

Swedish hibee
14-12-2017, 03:18 AM
Don't know why you are so shocked, apart from the cup final where he rightly has legend status forever and ever- I wasn't too impressed with him..
Sure he is a good player, but as our main marquee signing, I wasn't sold. I do hope as the season goes on, he gets fitter & makes me completely eat my words. Nothing would make me happier!

Unseen work
14-12-2017, 05:57 AM
The only reason he is in the team is because of his name.

If we signed a player from Alloa dishing out these performances fans would be slating him.

I was screaming last night to sub him for Fraser Murray - who I’m surprised at the lack of chances he has had this season especially considering last season/pre season

calumhibee1
14-12-2017, 06:53 AM
Finding it harder and harder to justify his position in the team.

Fuzzywuzzy
14-12-2017, 07:28 AM
Stokes is marmite, you either love him or hate him (hate being a bit strong in this context). I went to Sunday's game with a mate who's allegiances lie elsewhere but has a soft slot for us. He said that stokes seems to make himself look busy without really doing a lot.

Borderhibbie76
14-12-2017, 07:34 AM
I don't know what the problem is .. but if anybody is seriously saying 3 goals from open play 18 games into our season is anything like acceptable from a player we moved heaven and earth to sign then they must be hell of an easy pleased. I have seen Hibs players with half the talent and a quarter of his experience get hammered on here in the past for an output like that.

Oli Shaw didn't do much tonight to show he is ready to be a starting striker, but I'm sure his time will come.

Simon Murray is a hard working not bad player, but it doesn't look like he is going to be anything like a 20 goals a season striker.

Mateluvicius is clearly heading out the door, Neil Lennon obviously doesn't rate him at all, which begs the question 'why the hell did he sign him?'.

We need to sign a striker in January .......... unfortunately the hardest and most expensive position to fill in any team.Excellent summary mate and bang on the money . Big Dave must be honking not to be getting a chance at present...I just don't get why we signed him. I've defended Stokes all season but gave up last night...bar the odd touch he was atrocious tbh. Murray has been awful for weeks too...we desperately need 1 or 2 strikers in Jan. A goal scoring midfielder wouldn't go amiss neither.

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HibbySpurs
14-12-2017, 09:01 AM
Stokes is marmite, you either love him or hate him (hate being a bit strong in this context). I went to Sunday's game with a mate who's allegiances lie elsewhere but has a soft slot for us. He said that stokes seems to make himself look busy without really doing a lot.


Not so much Marmite as I really want the guy to do brilliant things for us but at present he is living off the legacy of 1 glorious performance.

I've been saying it for weeks now he is a lazy barsteward and at times now is no better than an empty jersey. He was woeful last night. Also his rate of return this season is just horrific for our "star striker". Needs dropped.

Anyone in the FF or at the FF end of the East should watch when the squad are warming up pre-match, they do various shuttles with the coach.... Watch Stokes and you'll really see how lazy he is, it's obvious he doesn't give a **** about the exercises and does them so half hearted it's laughable, the thing is though (for me) it shows a total lack of respect to his team mates doing the exercises with him and the coach organizing it.

Currently (IMO) he is no more than a wage thief.

J-C
14-12-2017, 09:22 AM
some touches were sublime like the one on left wing to st up barker near the end, touch was good most of the night but he couldent run with it and seemed to be slow at times and lost possesion more than usual IMO not fully fit:agree:


Maybe touch of an elephant was a bit OTT, posted while still raging.

There has been many rumours re Stokes, his bevvying and the reason why he fell out with Lennon, there's a big thread from a couple of weeks ago about Stokes and why he was sent home from East Mains, a lot of speculation and rumours but after the last 3-4 showings from Stokes, maybe those rumours may in fact be true.

He's playing like a player who's hitting the bevvy, slow, unaware of what's around him and easily dispossessed. You have to question if he's looking so unfit, why? He's been here from the start of the season and at this stage should be fit as a fiddle, McGregor's been out injured and has came back looking like he's as fit as when he was before he went for his knee op.

Stokes was our big start of season signing, brought in to be the main man to either score and/or create goals, apart from a few rare glimpses he's done neither. He was emptied from Celtic and then Blackburn for his socialising and not being fit/good enough, it looks like he's still living the same way here.

banarc7062
14-12-2017, 09:55 AM
I don't know what the problem is .. but if anybody is seriously saying 3 goals from open play 18 games into our season is anything like acceptable from a player we moved heaven and earth to sign then they must be hell of an easy pleased. I have seen Hibs players with half the talent and a quarter of his experience get hammered on here in the past for an output like that.

Oli Shaw didn't do much tonight to show he is ready to be a starting striker, but I'm sure his time will come.

Simon Murray is a hard working not bad player, but it doesn't look like he is going to be anything like a 20 goals a season striker.

Mateluvicius is clearly heading out the door, Neil Lennon obviously doesn't rate him at all, which begs the question 'why the hell did he sign him?'.

We need to sign a striker in January .......... unfortunately the hardest and most expensive position to fill in any team.

I tend to agree that Stokes is not performing how I would have expected. Look at Murray's work rate and Stokes is nowhere near that. I think he sees himself as the big player and will not put in the same effort. I for one would not be disappointed to see him go any time soon.

JimBHibees
14-12-2017, 10:11 AM
Maybe touch of an elephant was a bit OTT, posted while still raging.

There has been many rumours re Stokes, his bevvying and the reason why he fell out with Lennon, there's a big thread from a couple of weeks ago about Stokes and why he was sent home from East Mains, a lot of speculation and rumours but after the last 3-4 showings from Stokes, maybe those rumours may in fact be true.

He's playing like a player who's hitting the bevvy, slow, unaware of what's around him and easily dispossessed. You have to question if he's looking so unfit, why? He's been here from the start of the season and at this stage should be fit as a fiddle, McGregor's been out injured and has came back looking like he's as fit as when he was before he went for his knee op.

Stokes was our big start of season signing, brought in to be the main man to either score and/or create goals, apart from a few rare glimpses he's done neither. He was emptied from Celtic and then Blackburn for his socialising and not being fit/good enough, it looks like he's still living the same way here.

Agree he does look that he is nowhere near match sharp and has been that way since the St Johnstone game after the international break. The game before v Dundee thought he was excellent and created the winning goal, very disappointing as last night showed how much we need him to be at it.

LancsHibs
14-12-2017, 10:12 AM
Looks like I’m in a minority of 1 but I thought Stokes looked class last night, some of his hold up play and linking up with other players was excellent. Performed the role he was asked to do well and along with Barker/Boyle/McGinn/McGeough/Ambrose better than anything the Huns had to offer

Hi Heid Yin
14-12-2017, 10:47 AM
Stokes is but one problem (failing to keep clean sheets the other) and, sadly, a major one at present in that he is not doing the business that we moved heaven and earth for -namely, score goals on a regular basis.
If it's the case that he has scored only 3 goals from open play this season then that is, frankly, disappointing to say the least.
I have always been a Stokes man and praised him time and again for his class and other aspects of his game such as his interlink-play, but now is the time to seriously question what he is currently bringing -and I stress, currently.
His lack of goals is a serious cause for concern as, apart from a recent fallout and being dropped for one game, Stokes seemingly walks straight into our starting line-up - irrespective of his goals ratio.
I have no doubt that Neil Lennon knows Stokes inside-out and is man-managing him as effectively as he is able to, but is allegiance to this particular player playing its not insignificant part in our team failing to deliver goals or results deserving of our general play?

Stevie Reid
14-12-2017, 10:48 AM
My biggest concern with Stokes is with how many people on this board seem to be making out that he has been awful for us, when that's pretty far from the truth. He hasn't hit the heights that I was hoping he would, especially after such a good start with no preseason - but the appetite of many to constantly single him out is disappointing.

He's scored 9 goals in 17 appearances, and showed on Sunday the kind of magic that he can come up with when he's not scoring. He didn't have a good game last night, but he wasn't awful. Even if he had been, players have bad games. It's allowed.

FWIW, he's done better than Stevie May has at Aberdeen - their big marquee signing.

Peevemor
14-12-2017, 11:04 AM
Stokes isn't playing as an out and out CF and spends a lot of time in the midfield area and drifting out to the left. He's very important to the team and his experience/savvy is invaluable. He doesn't get bullied and uses the ball well (his distribution is far better than SJM's for example), often opening things up for others.

He's playing very much the same role that Keith Wright played latterly for Hibs.

By comparison, Wright's return was

91/92 48 apps 17 goals
92/93 51 apps 14 goals
93/94 48 apps 19 goals
94/95 24 apps 11 goals
95/96 29 apps 9 goals
69/97 33 apps 6 goals

I can't remember Keith getting the same stick.

http://www.fitbastats.com/hibs/player.php?playerid=6341

Northernhibee
14-12-2017, 11:12 AM
Truthfully, in 2017 I don't think he's anywhere near the standard we need. He's barely played the last two seasons other than a loan to us where he made himself a club hero with his one standout performance and when you take the green tinted specs off he doesn't have the mobility, attitude or goals to be effective anymore.

Sad, but I think he's a shadow of what he was. If you could see him working his arse off to improve I might feel more hopeful but I just don't think he justifies what he gets in return.

Firestarter
14-12-2017, 11:16 AM
It's hard being the main striker when he's dropping deep to create and fetch the ball as there's very little getting to him.

Northernhibee
14-12-2017, 11:20 AM
It's hard being the main striker when he's dropping deep to create and fetch the ball as there's very little getting to him.

Has never seemed to be a problem for Murray. He gets in position, Barker or Boyle feed him, we look more effective as a result.

Murray is not as natural a striker but his attitude and workrate put him streets ahead on the pitch.

renato
14-12-2017, 11:26 AM
I think Stokes’ biggest problem was (again) not having a proper pre season. It’s so critical for a pro and without it you’re often left playing catch up through the season. That was my biggest concern, as the summer “will he, won’t he” saga took an age to get him signed.

And that’s before you consider any off field or alleged attitude issues. The guy certainly looks a yard or two short or pace and he’s getting the ball mugged way too much for a guy with his ability and awareness.

hibsbollah
14-12-2017, 11:33 AM
This thread is a bit harsh on Stokes. He wasn't shocking last night by any means, he did some good link up play, made a few mistakes and got mugged a few times by Holt, who was one of the few Rangers players who played well last night and was a total pest. He hasn't set the Heather on fire but the comment about missing the preseason is very valid. He looks like hes physically a bit behind the others.

B.H.F.C
14-12-2017, 11:34 AM
Stokes has never played as a lone striker really but has done that a number of times for us, it's not his game. Last night he was more or less playing in midfield.

I think his situation sums us up a bit to be honest. IMO, we just can't get the balance right and there is too much chopping and changing.

Play Stokes up front and give him a bit of company and we'd see the best of him.

Firestarter
14-12-2017, 11:37 AM
Has never seemed to be a problem for Murray. He gets in position, Barker or Boyle feed him, we look more effective as a result.

Murray is not as natural a striker but his attitude and workrate put him streets ahead on the pitch.

Stokes is a smarter player than Murray who runs about and sometimes gets lucky. Stokes drops deep to create for others especially on the left when he opened up space for Barker brilliantly.

BSEJVT
14-12-2017, 11:55 AM
Looks like I’m in a minority of 1 but I thought Stokes looked class last night, some of his hold up play and linking up with other players was excellent. Performed the role he was asked to do well and along with Barker/Boyle/McGinn/McGeough/Ambrose better than anything the Huns had to offer

Not at all I agree with you.

I think far too many folk expect a superman performance like they got in the cup final each game.

The fact that he has been playing far deeper and is far less likely to score seems to totally escape folk.

Others then rabbit on about Murray's work rate v Stokes, ffs do they really understand football?

Anyone can run about like an idiot, regularly getting caught off side doing so it has to be said, but few have the ability, touch or vision to do something special

Like:

His ball to Stevenson for the equaliser on Sunday

His sublime touch to kill the ball coming out the air on the left touchline

The only other player on the park capable of doing that may be McGeouch, but even then I am not sure.

Stokes also works far far harder than I thought he would and covers masses of ground in the course of a game.

His goal return has been disappointing but as he is not at the tip of the spear, he hasn't had nearly as many chances as others.

Like Stevenson folk see what they want to see or jump on bandwagons.

Murray was rotten last night apart from setting up Stevenson's goal, but he doesn't get a fraction of the criticism Stokes does

Smartie
14-12-2017, 12:13 PM
About 30 minutes in I was going to post sarcastically "Stokes looking disinterested as usual tonight" because he was anything but.

He was keen, eager, involved in everything, his touch was good and he was having a brilliant game when we were well on top.

It did go downhill for him and I'm not sure why. He struggled a bit when we changed our shape and fell out the game (even though some other players improved and as a team we were still well on top).

He wasn't that bad, but he wasn't great. He was just in and out of the game, and he made a few errors of judgment playing in his less familiar position as the game went on.

Elephant Stone
14-12-2017, 12:26 PM
Looks like I’m in a minority of 1 but I thought Stokes looked class last night, some of his hold up play and linking up with other players was excellent. Performed the role he was asked to do well and along with Barker/Boyle/McGinn/McGeough/Ambrose better than anything the Huns had to offer

So did I. He's been playing some passes that you'd expect to see from an experienced play-making midfielder.

BarneyHibby
14-12-2017, 12:49 PM
Looks like I’m in a minority of 1 but I thought Stokes looked class last night, some of his hold up play and linking up with other players was excellent. Performed the role he was asked to do well and along with Barker/Boyle/McGinn/McGeough/Ambrose better than anything the Huns had to offerAbsolutely agree with you. Stoksey was one of our best players yesterday in my opinion.

Tyler Durden
14-12-2017, 12:52 PM
Not at all I agree with you.

I think far too many folk expect a superman performance like they got in the cup final each game.

The fact that he has been playing far deeper and is far less likely to score seems to totally escape folk.

Others then rabbit on about Murray's work rate v Stokes, ffs do they really understand football?

Anyone can run about like an idiot, regularly getting caught off side doing so it has to be said, but few have the ability, touch or vision to do something special

Like:

His ball to Stevenson for the equaliser on Sunday

His sublime touch to kill the ball coming out the air on the left touchline

The only other player on the park capable of doing that may be McGeouch, but even then I am not sure.

Stokes also works far far harder than I thought he would and covers masses of ground in the course of a game.

His goal return has been disappointing but as he is not at the tip of the spear, he hasn't had nearly as many chances as others.

Like Stevenson folk see what they want to see or jump on bandwagons.

Murray was rotten last night apart from setting up Stevenson's goal, but he doesn't get a fraction of the criticism Stokes does

I disagree with most of this.

It's quite often not Stokes's role to drop deep. It was in the first half yesterday and he did ok. Various other times he has been asked to play at the tip of the spear and he's been found wanting.

You mention his ability to do something special. That is recognised and it's precisely because of this ability that people find him so frustrating - he's not contributing nearly enough for someone with that ability. That's his responsibility, it's nobody else's fault.

Murray doesn't get a fraction of the criticism that Stokes gets because he was a free transfer punt, he's performing far above most people's reasonable expectations and is clearly improving every month. He's earning his wage and more.

Stokes is meant to be our talisman, probably the highest paid player and a leader on the park. His body language is shocking, he's getting into arguments with team mates and manager and he's not delivering nearly enough on the park.

Lewiehas2
14-12-2017, 01:02 PM
Think anyone who questions Stokes has no clue. Easily one of our top 2/3 players, and on his day our best. Let's bring back journeyman strikers that "work hard" and we'll see how we get on. Wouldn't have got a point on Sunday i'll tell you that

kaimendhibs
14-12-2017, 01:15 PM
Not at all I agree with you.

I think far too many folk expect a superman performance like they got in the cup final each game.

The fact that he has been playing far deeper and is far less likely to score seems to totally escape folk.

Others then rabbit on about Murray's work rate v Stokes, ffs do they really understand football?

Anyone can run about like an idiot, regularly getting caught off side doing so it has to be said, but few have the ability, touch or vision to do something special

Like:

His ball to Stevenson for the equaliser on Sunday

His sublime touch to kill the ball coming out the air on the left touchline

The only other player on the park capable of doing that may be McGeouch, but even then I am not sure.

Stokes also works far far harder than I thought he would and covers masses of ground in the course of a game.

His goal return has been disappointing but as he is not at the tip of the spear, he hasn't had nearly as many chances as others.

Like Stevenson folk see what they want to see or jump on bandwagons.

Murray was rotten last night apart from setting up Stevenson's goal, but he doesn't get a fraction of the criticism Stokes doesSpot on

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NAE NOOKIE
14-12-2017, 01:22 PM
Think anyone who questions Stokes has no clue. Easily one of our top 2/3 players, and on his day our best. Let's bring back journeyman strikers that "work hard" and we'll see how we get on. Wouldn't have got a point on Sunday i'll tell you that

Sorry mate, I wasn't aware that Stokes had been signed as a forward thinking midfield player or left sided midfield player, I thought he had been signed to get us goals. If I had thought that was the idea when we signed him I would have been crying out for Hibs to sign another striker before the season started. Perhaps it would help deflect the criticism if he wasn't listed as a striker on the club's official website.

RIP
14-12-2017, 01:37 PM
With 2 speedy wingers we need speedy strikers making runs into the box. Griffiths and Cummings scored a lot if tap ins.

You see that a lot in Europe and the EPL. Is it just that our strikers can't keep up?

Hiber-nation
14-12-2017, 01:50 PM
I think he's been very poor recently, doesn't look fit, his touch has mostly been poor by his standards and he's not working very hard. I wonder how he managed to get himself to the level of performance that he did in the Cup Final. He hasn't been near that before or after and that's what disappoints me - it's what he's actually capable of as he showed briefly towards the end last Sunday. Add in the bust-up with Lennon and I'd be quite happy to see the back of him.

Oranje39
14-12-2017, 01:59 PM
I thought Stokes played well last night in a number 10 role. He shouldn't be used as a striker in my opinion. Murray has had better games and will do again.

Really unlucky last night, some really good foot ball played and I enjoyed watching it.

number9dream
14-12-2017, 02:29 PM
I thought Stokes played well last night in a number 10 role. He shouldn't be used as a striker in my opinion. Murray has had better games and will do again.

Really unlucky last night, some really good foot ball played and I enjoyed watching it.

Can't agree with that at all. Last night, and against St J, Stokesy looked out of his depth in that position. Wasn't threading passes through for the strikers, didn't get one shot away all night. Murray doesn't help since he's off like a rocket in the opposite direction from the ball almost every time, rather than playing close to his partner.
I think we should use one or the other as a number 9, with instructions to poach as much as possible and leave the running channels to others.
If we go 3-5-2 at Pittodrie, maybe use Barker in a free role up top with Stokes leading the line.

Mantis Toboggan
14-12-2017, 02:40 PM
Can't agree with that at all. Last night, and against St J, Stokesy looked out of his depth in that position. Wasn't threading passes through for the strikers, didn't get one shot away all night. Murray doesn't help since he's off like a rocket in the opposite direction from the ball almost every time, rather than playing close to his partner.
I think we should use one or the other as a number 9, with instructions to poach as much as possible and leave the running channels to others.
If we go 3-5-2 at Pittodrie, maybe use Barker in a free role up top with Stokes leading the line.

Barker is a natural winger and has just had his best game for hibs. Why would we then play him out of position away to Aberdeen?

Last night Boyle put in a number of dangerous balls begging to be tapped in. We do need someone capable of getting to those, sadly at the moment it looks like neither Murray or Stokes can do that.

Winston Ingram
14-12-2017, 02:43 PM
Think anyone who questions Stokes has no clue. Easily one of our top 2/3 players, and on his day our best. Let's bring back journeyman strikers that "work hard" and we'll see how we get on. Wouldn't have got a point on Sunday i'll tell you that

Nobody is questioning Stokes quality. He's one of our top 3 players 'on his day.'

However, his days have been very rare and anyone not recognising this has no clue. The odd touch here and there doesn't cut it.

hibbie02
14-12-2017, 02:43 PM
Not at all I agree with you.

I think far too many folk expect a superman performance like they got in the cup final each game.

The fact that he has been playing far deeper and is far less likely to score seems to totally escape folk.

Others then rabbit on about Murray's work rate v Stokes, ffs do they really understand football?

Anyone can run about like an idiot, regularly getting caught off side doing so it has to be said, but few have the ability, touch or vision to do something special

Like:

His ball to Stevenson for the equaliser on Sunday

His sublime touch to kill the ball coming out the air on the left touchline

The only other player on the park capable of doing that may be McGeouch, but even then I am not sure.

Stokes also works far far harder than I thought he would and covers masses of ground in the course of a game.

His goal return has been disappointing but as he is not at the tip of the spear, he hasn't had nearly as many chances as others.

Like Stevenson folk see what they want to see or jump on bandwagons.

Murray was rotten last night apart from setting up Stevenson's goal, but he doesn't get a fraction of the criticism Stokes does

100% Agree

Northernhibee
14-12-2017, 03:04 PM
I disagree with most of this.

It's quite often not Stokes's role to drop deep. It was in the first half yesterday and he did ok. Various other times he has been asked to play at the tip of the spear and he's been found wanting.

You mention his ability to do something special. That is recognised and it's precisely because of this ability that people find him so frustrating - he's not contributing nearly enough for someone with that ability. That's his responsibility, it's nobody else's fault.

Murray doesn't get a fraction of the criticism that Stokes gets because he was a free transfer punt, he's performing far above most people's reasonable expectations and is clearly improving every month. He's earning his wage and more.

Stokes is meant to be our talisman, probably the highest paid player and a leader on the park. His body language is shocking, he's getting into arguments with team mates and manager and he's not delivering nearly enough on the park.

This. The Stokes lovers on here dismiss Murray's workrate as "running about like an idiot" when in fact Murray is the one who has been more useful this season and looks more likely to improve.

Peevemor
14-12-2017, 03:09 PM
This. The Stokes lovers on here dismiss Murray's workrate as "running about like an idiot" when in fact Murray is the one who has been more useful this season and looks more likely to improve.

Are you allowed to like both of them?

superbam
14-12-2017, 03:16 PM
I thought Stokes played well last night in a number 10 role. He shouldn't be used as a striker in my opinion. Murray has had better games and will do again.

Really unlucky last night, some really good foot ball played and I enjoyed watching it.

Agree 100%, thought Stokes had a decent game. He's not an out and out striker and IMO shouldn't be expected to be.

Northernhibee
14-12-2017, 03:29 PM
Are you allowed to like both of them?

Yes.

However in terms of their attitude, I don't.

Big_Franck
14-12-2017, 04:45 PM
Disappointed with Stokes so far. Can't even remember the last time he played well.

Firestarter
14-12-2017, 04:47 PM
Disappointed with Stokes so far. Can't even remember the last time he played well.


Sunday??

IlDiavola
14-12-2017, 05:28 PM
As someone said earlier in the thread, if we'd signed him from a wee team and his name wasn't Anthony Stokes everyone would be giving him pelters for his lack lustre, couldnae care less, Billy Big Baws attitude. His name however is Anthony Stokes and therefore the leeway he is given by the fans is staggering.

In summary, he isn't interested.

Simon Murray everytime over this waste of a jersey who is living off his Cup Final performance. Surely NL can see this?

DavidDavidGray
14-12-2017, 06:25 PM
Massively underperformed since he came back. 3 goals from open play for a marquee signing is ridiculous. He doesn’t look interested, looks like he’s lost a yard or so. Didn’t think he played well yesterday and if it was anybody that wasn’t called Anthony Stokes putting in these performances then there would be serious questions about why they weren’t being dropped. He obviously has ability but hasn’t shown it this season. Love the boy for his cup final goals but he hasn’t been good enough this season. Need a striker in January.

IlDiavola
14-12-2017, 06:28 PM
Massively underperformed since he came back. 3 goals from open play for a marquee signing is ridiculous. He doesn’t look interested, looks like he’s lost a yard or so. Didn’t think he played well yesterday and if it was anybody that wasn’t called Anthony Stokes putting in these performances then there would be serious questions about why they weren’t being dropped. He obviously has ability but hasn’t shown it this season. Love the boy for his cup final goals but he hasn’t been good enough this season. Need a striker in January.

:thumbsup:

DavidDavidGray
14-12-2017, 06:29 PM
:thumbsup:

What part of that do you disagree with?

matty_f
14-12-2017, 06:51 PM
What part of that do you disagree with?

Is he not agreeing wth you?

DavidDavidGray
14-12-2017, 07:00 PM
Is he not agreeing wth you?

Comes across as more ironic. Could’ve interpreted it wrong though.

IlDiavola
14-12-2017, 07:30 PM
What part of that do you disagree with?

None of it. That's why I gave you the :aok:. You had just said almost the same as me in the post above yours.


Is he not agreeing wth you?

Course I was Matty, thanks.


Comes across as more ironic. Could’ve interpreted it wrong though.

That's not what ironic means.

The Harp Awakes
14-12-2017, 07:34 PM
As someone said earlier in the thread, if we'd signed him from a wee team and his name wasn't Anthony Stokes everyone would be giving him pelters for his lack lustre, couldnae care less, Billy Big Baws attitude. His name however is Anthony Stokes and therefore the leeway he is given by the fans is staggering.

In summary, he isn't interested.

Simon Murray everytime over this waste of a jersey who is living off his Cup Final performance. Surely NL can see this?

Couldn't disagree more.

Prior to his injury and fall out with Lennon I think Stokes was one of our best performing players this season. His form has certainly shaded in the last few games along with a few other players, but even then he's shown his class at times too.

I actually think the opposite from you, and reckon Stokes gets a raw deal from Hibs fans. Because of his ability and the fact that he was a big signing, fans expect too much of him. For me Dylan and Stokes are the 2 classiest players we've got in the squad. Dylan is on top form now playing in his natural position whereas I don't think our formation or the position Stokes has played in, has allowed us to get the best out of him.

I think we need to get off his back, let Lennon do the talking and Stokes class will show.

,

DavidDavidGray
14-12-2017, 08:43 PM
None of it. That's why I gave you the :aok:. You had just said almost the same as me in the post above yours.



Course I was Matty, thanks.



That's not what ironic means.

Sorry mate, just misunderstood

Firestarter
14-12-2017, 08:47 PM
As someone said earlier in the thread, if we'd signed him from a wee team and his name wasn't Anthony Stokes everyone would be giving him pelters for his lack lustre, couldnae care less, Billy Big Baws attitude. His name however is Anthony Stokes and therefore the leeway he is given by the fans is staggering.

In summary, he isn't interested.

Simon Murray everytime over this waste of a jersey who is living off his Cup Final performance. Surely NL can see this?

Pish. Just because Murray runs around a lot doesn't mean he's contributing more. Murray was humpty last night, Stokes football mind helped Barker have a stormer.

SRHibs
14-12-2017, 09:24 PM
None of it. That's why I gave you the :aok:. You had just said almost the same as me in the post above yours.



Course I was Matty, thanks.



That's not what ironic means.

Ironic applies, although sarcastic would be more fitting.

MWHIBBIES
14-12-2017, 09:38 PM
As someone said earlier in the thread, if we'd signed him from a wee team and his name wasn't Anthony Stokes everyone would be giving him pelters for his lack lustre, couldnae care less, Billy Big Baws attitude. His name however is Anthony Stokes and therefore the leeway he is given by the fans is staggering.

In summary, he isn't interested.

Simon Murray everytime over this waste of a jersey who is living off his Cup Final performance. Surely NL can see this?Think you are the only one who sees that mate. Utter mince.

Murray was far less involved than Stokes yesterday. Looked well out of his depth.

Stuart93
14-12-2017, 11:21 PM
Agree with the posters who're saying it looks like Murray is out his depth in this league.

Dashing Bob S
14-12-2017, 11:30 PM
Thought Stokes was brilliant in the second half against Celtic. Not so good against the Huns.

monktonharp
15-12-2017, 12:06 AM
Stokes is a smarter player than Murray who runs about and sometimes gets lucky. Stokes drops deep to create for others especially on the left when he opened up space for Barker brilliantly.Stokesey played in 2 brilliant balls over their defence yesterday in the first half. all it needed was a touch from our main strikers and it was in. he did similar in the second. he was not a main striker, playing just behind them and sometimes back to midfield and I cant fault him for his work.

monktonharp
15-12-2017, 12:10 AM
With 2 speedy wingers we need speedy strikers making runs into the box. Griffiths and Cummings scored a lot if tap ins.

You see that a lot in Europe and the EPL. Is it just that our strikers can't keep up?our speedy strikers failed to connect with 2 speedy crosses in the first half, delivered by Stokes which have put us on easy street

madhatter
15-12-2017, 08:13 AM
I'd be interested to find out what everyone would be saying about Stokes if his performance in the cup final hadn't happened?

He deserves some leniency because of that and he deserves many fans' gratitude for finally ending the 1902 rubbish. However, anybody saying he was one of our best players against Rangers...that's not leniency that is obsession. He had a very mediocre game and virtually disappeared in the 2nd half. I can name at least 5 players who had better games: Stevenson, McGregor,McGeouch,Boyle,Barker.

Put it this way, look at the marked increase in Boyle's ability. He is arguably one of our first picks now.

I've seen no improvement to Stokes and again he deserves some leniency but let's not say "he was one of our best performers" when he wasn't. On paper Stokes is our best player in terms of his pedigree and previous glimpses of skill. On the pitch, how often does he look like our best player? How many times has he got man of the match?

KirkyBergkamp
15-12-2017, 08:16 AM
I'd be interested to find out what everyone would be saying about Stokes if his performance in the cup final hadn't happened?

He deserves some leniency because of that and he deserves many fans' gratitude for finally ending the 1902 rubbish. However, anybody saying he was one of our best players against Rangers...that's not leniency that is obsession. He had a very mediocre game and virtually disappeared in the 2nd half. I can name at least 5 players who had better games: Stevenson, McGregor,McGeouch,Boyle,Barker.

Put it this way, look at the marked increase in Boyle's ability. He is arguably one of our first picks now.

I've seen no improvement to Stokes and again he deserves some leniency but let's not say "he was one of our best performers" when he wasn't. On paper Stokes is our best player in terms of his pedigree and previous glimpses of skill. On the pitch, how often does he look like our best player? How many times has he got man of the match?

See that thing that was the pinnacle of your Hibs career - we’re gonna forget about that and judge you on a crappy night in Inverness instead...

Betty Boop
15-12-2017, 08:47 AM
Finding it harder and harder to justify his position in the team.

You can see why Tony Mowbray got rid.

Phil MaGlass
15-12-2017, 09:29 AM
I thought Stokes was excellent, some of his touches,especially when surrounded by multiple players was immense, some folk on here seem to have a need of bringing our players down regularly, I have done it myself on occasion when warranted but on here it seems a few need to always complain about the same players, Lewis and now it seems Stokesy.

Albanian Hibs
15-12-2017, 09:30 AM
Agree with the posters who're saying it looks like Murray is out his depth in this league.

😂 aye right

Big_Franck
15-12-2017, 09:38 AM
Sunday??

On Sunday I thought he played well for the last 20 minutes or so. When Shaw came on and he moved wide left he did better. He was poor for the first 70 minutes though IMO.

For someone who is probably our highest earner I'd be expecting more than 15/20 minute glimpses of ability every 3/4 weeks.

madhatter
15-12-2017, 09:48 AM
See that thing that was the pinnacle of your Hibs career - we’re gonna forget about that and judge you on a crappy night in Inverness instead...

Was that really my message? Think it was more "we'll forget nth number of poor games for us because you had 1 sensational one."

basehibby
15-12-2017, 09:53 AM
I think some of the criticism on here is way OTT - however I do think we could see a bit more coming from Stokesy. On 210516 he was simply unplayable - World Class! I'm not expecting that sort of performance every week but sometimes would be good.

He is a class player and brings great guile, touch and vision to the table - but when you know what he's really capable of it can be a wee bit frustrating watching him - hope he keeps his head down and we see some more 21/05 performances before the season is out.

Firestarter
15-12-2017, 09:54 AM
This place is mental.

Firestarter
15-12-2017, 09:57 AM
On Sunday I thought he played well for the last 20 minutes or so. When Shaw came on and he moved wide left he did better. He was poor for the first 70 minutes though IMO.

For someone who is probably our highest earner I'd be expecting more than 15/20 minute glimpses of ability every 3/4 weeks.

Was that the 20 mins that had us come back from 2 down to almost beat the unbeaten champions?

Tell me what you expect from him when the service is so poor? We play with wingers who's final ball is shocking st times and no creatice midfielder. If Stokes had a zemmama or boozy behind him then he would be a goal scorer, right now we don't have that final ball so Stokes finds himself creating more.

Hiber-nation
15-12-2017, 11:04 AM
Was that the 20 mins that had us come back from 2 down to almost beat the unbeaten champions?

Tell me what you expect from him when the service is so poor? We play with wingers who's final ball is shocking st times and no creatice midfielder. If Stokes had a zemmama or boozy behind him then he would be a goal scorer, right now we don't have that final ball so Stokes finds himself creating more.

He's underperforming. We were behind the dugout at Firrhill and I've never seen a manager so frustrated with a player as Lennon was with Stokes. Murray wasn't far behind mind you!

BSEJVT
15-12-2017, 11:43 AM
He's underperforming. We were behind the dugout at Firrhill and I've never seen a manager so frustrated with a player as Lennon was with Stokes. Murray wasn't far behind mind you!

Not sure he is J.

I think Stokes is now performing at a better level than his last spell with us (cup final excepted).

I don't think he will hit the previous heights of his cup final performance or performances under Lennon at Celtic.

He simply cannot play as a lone striker and I doubt he ever could at any point in his career.

He has played very little football in the last 3 or 4 years and his lifestyle choices over the years will increasingly impact upon him (see Deek & GOC as examples) and frankly I expect him to get worse not better.

I expect him to play deeper (no 10 role) more often than before and with a couple of intelligent, mobile well rounded centre forwards in front of him he will create plenty direct chances with threaded passes

I think the role he is being asked to fulfil is a role missing from the current team (Swanson maybe) and there is potential value in having him there.

I think the current team is imbalanced in that for all their attributes I don't see McGeouch, McGinn or Bartley creating much through threaded passes through the defence , so we have a choice of playing it wide or playing balls into the channels to let someone chase.

Personally if we could get Swanson fit I would play him in the role I have outlined for Stokes and have Stokes up front as part of pair.

My only reservation on this is that Stokes days of outpacing anyone are long gone.

I think folks expectations of him will need to shift as his role appears to have or some are in for a very unhappy few years with him.

I bet Lewis Stevenson & Paul Hanlon are glad to have him around to share some of the flak!

BTW to clarify an earlier post I made on Murray.

Murray has exceeded my expectations greatly and I am hopeful Lennon can elicit from him the same types of improvements he has with Boyle, but some of his runs are brutal and he is caught offside far too often.

My current impression of him is that he is good when forced to act instinctively but given the time to think he is often found wanting.

Hopfully he can kick on, its still early days.

Firestarter
15-12-2017, 11:45 AM
He's underperforming. We were behind the dugout at Firrhill and I've never seen a manager so frustrated with a player as Lennon was with Stokes. Murray wasn't far behind mind you!

I don't think he's under peforming at all. He gets piss poor service and is creating chances and space for others.

Phil MaGlass
15-12-2017, 11:45 AM
The lone striker bit really anmoys me, we have great fire power, use them ffs.

soproni1
15-12-2017, 12:08 PM
He isn't producing what he is capable of, which is why he is getting stick and deservedly so IMO. A couple of nice touches a game and an assist or penalty here and there isn't enough. A much more limited player (Murray) is becoming a more useful asset, I was always a fan of him playing off the left but Barker has nudged him out of that role now. I'd like to see Lennon drop him and see if we can get a reaction i.e. an uptick in performance.

BarneyHibby
15-12-2017, 12:20 PM
I'd be interested to find out what everyone would be saying about Stokes if his performance in the cup final hadn't happened?

He deserves some leniency because of that and he deserves many fans' gratitude for finally ending the 1902 rubbish. However, anybody saying he was one of our best players against Rangers...that's not leniency that is obsession. He had a very mediocre game and virtually disappeared in the 2nd half. I can name at least 5 players who had better games: Stevenson, McGregor,McGeouch,Boyle,Barker. I think Stoksey been excellent in first half. He had a few nice touches. In the second he played very average. He tried his best but did not succeed. I also rate Barker & Squirrel very highly. Both have been outstanding in the second half.

Big_Franck
15-12-2017, 12:22 PM
Was that the 20 mins that had us come back from 2 down to almost beat the unbeaten champions?

Tell me what you expect from him when the service is so poor? We play with wingers who's final ball is shocking st times and no creatice midfielder. If Stokes had a zemmama or boozy behind him then he would be a goal scorer, right now we don't have that final ball so Stokes finds himself creating more.

Yep, those 20 minutes. I'd expect more than a decent 20 minute spell every 3/4 games (being generous) from our main striker and likely highest earner though.

Apart from that 20 minute spell against Celtc he has done very little in our last 4 games. Last night he was ineffective against a shan Rangers defence, Partick away he was brutal and I wasn't at the Hamilton game but apparently he wasn't great there either. We need more from him in my opinion.

Hiber-nation
15-12-2017, 01:39 PM
Not sure he is J.

I think Stokes is now performing at a better level than his last spell with us (cup final excepted).

I don't think he will hit the previous heights of his cup final performance or performances under Lennon at Celtic.

He simply cannot play as a lone striker and I doubt he ever could at any point in his career.

He has played very little football in the last 3 or 4 years and his lifestyle choices over the years will increasingly impact upon him (see Deek & GOC as examples) and frankly I expect him to get worse not better.

I expect him to play deeper (no 10 role) more often than before and with a couple of intelligent, mobile well rounded centre forwards in front of him he will create plenty direct chances with threaded passes

I think the role he is being asked to fulfil is a role missing from the current team (Swanson maybe) and there is potential value in having him there.

I think the current team is imbalanced in that for all their attributes I don't see McGeouch, McGinn or Bartley creating much through threaded passes through the defence , so we have a choice of playing it wide or playing balls into the channels to let someone chase.

Personally if we could get Swanson fit I would play him in the role I have outlined for Stokes and have Stokes up front as part of pair.

My only reservation on this is that Stokes days of outpacing anyone are long gone.

I think folks expectations of him will need to shift as his role appears to have or some are in for a very unhappy few years with him.

I bet Lewis Stevenson & Paul Hanlon are glad to have him around to share some of the flak!

BTW to clarify an earlier post I made on Murray.

Murray has exceeded my expectations greatly and I am hopeful Lennon can elicit from him the same types of improvements he has with Boyle, but some of his runs are brutal and he is caught offside far too often.

My current impression of him is that he is good when forced to act instinctively but given the time to think he is often found wanting.

Hopfully he can kick on, its still early days.

I saw your post the other day and was halfway through responding but fell asleep :greengrin

I've probably posted too much about him over the past few weeks. I'll let it rest for now.

Eaststandee
15-12-2017, 02:21 PM
People throwing Murray under the bus in defense of Stokes is pish. Murray acts like a man who loves every minute of being at Hibs on and off the pitch, Stokes sometimes looks like a man who would be anywhere else.

IlDiavola
15-12-2017, 05:31 PM
Was that really my message? Think it was more "we'll forget nth number of poor games for us because you had 1 sensational one."

Spot on. :aok:

That's what I was trying to say last night and got shot down in flames and told by one charmer that my post was 'mince'.

It's a fansite on which people are perfectly entitled to voice their opinion.

Stokes is still 'dining out' on an inspirational performance some 19 months ago. Not many players would get that length of honeymoon period but hey ho, that's probably a 'load of mince' too. :rolleyes:

Toe the party line and all that. :cb

IlDiavola
15-12-2017, 05:35 PM
Think you are the only one who sees that mate. Utter mince.

Murray was far less involved than Stokes yesterday. Looked well out of his depth.

Not according to some other peoples posts I'm not.

So, I'm calling your statement 'utter mince' :na na:

BSEJVT
15-12-2017, 05:52 PM
Toe the party line and all that. :cb

You were doing so well until then :-)

I have never seen any party line on here

There are generally open and honest debates from Hibs supporters who see things from different perspectives and occasionally it goes beyond that.

If you are prepared to express an opinion do so, but don't whine when folk don't share it and disagree and don't refer to clichés and party lines as its nonsense.

You only need to look at the ticketgate or cup final pitch invasion threads to see long established posters with big post counts expressing completely different opinions and often doing so vehemently.

It comes across as childish and weakens your argument considerably as it just looks like you have nothing to back it up.

Fight your corner for as long as you can be bothered isn't a bad mantra to have on here.

MWHIBBIES
15-12-2017, 05:59 PM
Not according to some other peoples posts I'm not.

So, I'm calling your statement 'utter mince' :na na:Well the managers opinion is the one that matters so, based on the fact he picks Stokes all the time, you are talking mince.

IlDiavola
15-12-2017, 06:01 PM
You were doing so well until then :-)

I have never seen any party line on here

There are generally open and honest debates from Hibs supporters who see things from different perspectives and occasionally it goes beyond that.

If you are prepared to express an opinion do so, but don't whine when folk don't share it and disagree and don't refer to clichés and party lines as its nonsense.

You only need to look at the ticketgate or cup final pitch invasion threads to see long established posters with big post counts expressing completely different opinions and often doing so vehemently.

It comes across as childish and weakens your argument considerably as it just looks like you have nothing to back it up.

Fight your corner for as long as you can be bothered isn't a bad mantra to have on here.

Fair point mate :aok:

I accept that the 'party line' jibe was a step too far and for that I apologise.

IlDiavola
15-12-2017, 06:05 PM
Well the managers opinion is the one that matters so, based on the fact he picks Stokes all the time, you are talking mince.

Well, mince or no mince, who's to say that Neil Lennons' opinion is the correct one?

You obviously do, he obviously does and I obviously don't.

It's a debate, not a conversation in a butchers shop. :wink:

allant1981
15-12-2017, 06:07 PM
Agree with the posters who're saying it looks like Murray is out his depth in this league.

what a load of rubbish

IlDiavola
15-12-2017, 06:12 PM
what a load of rubbish

:aok:

andybev1
15-12-2017, 06:16 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/scottish-premiership/top-scorers

not a lot in the stats

BSEJVT
15-12-2017, 06:17 PM
Fair point mate :aok:

I accept that the 'party line' jibe was a step too far and for that I apologise.

Good on you

Takes a big man to do that:aok:

Firestarter
15-12-2017, 06:18 PM
People throwing Murray under the bus in defense of Stokes is pish. Murray acts like a man who loves every minute of being at Hibs on and off the pitch, Stokes sometimes looks like a man who would be anywhere else.

So because their body language is different we are to kid on Murray is better than Stokesy?

IlDiavola
15-12-2017, 06:19 PM
Good on you

Takes a big man to do that:aok:

Cheers for saying that, much appreciated. :thumbsup:

IlDiavola
15-12-2017, 06:23 PM
So because their body language is different we are to kid on Murray is better than Stokesy?

Don't need to kid on that Murray is better than Stokes because quite clearly he is not.

The guy was just pointing out that one player over another shows far more enthusiasm and, for me, that's the sort of attitude one should allude to applauding in a Hibs player.

21.05.2016
15-12-2017, 06:31 PM
Stokes isn't cutting it for me regularly enough. His cup final heroics definatly tainted folks memories of his last spell with us IMO and made folk more keen to bring him back. He ran a riot on 21.05.16 and had the game of his life but before that, bar the odd few occassions, he was poor. In a poor league like the Championship he should have scored far more.

Forever a legend but for me i'm sorry but he is not the answer.

IlDiavola
15-12-2017, 06:32 PM
Stokes isn't cutting it for me regularly enough. His cup final heroics definatly tainted folks memories of his last spell with us IMO and made folk more keen to bring him back. He ran a riot on 21.05.16 and had the game of his life but before that, bar the odd few occassions, he was poor. In a poor league like the Championship he should have scored far more.

Forever a legend but for me i'm sorry but he is not the answer.

I'm starting to like this thread. :greengrin

Lago
15-12-2017, 07:03 PM
I thought Stokes was excellent, some of his touches,especially when surrounded by multiple players was immense, some folk on here seem to have a need of bringing our players down regularly, I have done it myself on occasion when warranted but on here it seems a few need to always complain about the same players, Lewis and now it seems Stokesy.

Does so much that is unseen and unappreciated.

Onion
15-12-2017, 07:39 PM
Does so much that is unseen and unappreciated.

:agree: Quality player who's 2 steps ahead the rest. Up to the manager to motivate, deploy and get the best out of him.

Lago
15-12-2017, 08:07 PM
:agree: Quality player who's 2 steps ahead the rest. Up to the manager to motivate, deploy and get the best out of him.

Correct & because he is ahead in his play when others aren't it makes him look like he has miss placed a pass, made a wrong run or no run etc etc.

cleanyman
15-12-2017, 08:14 PM
Stokes is quality.

Yeah he's not been performing but he's still an important player for us. Lovely pass on Sunday led to the equaliser and I thought he played well on Wednesday.

He just needs to bang them in and no love will be lost

Iggy Pope
15-12-2017, 08:15 PM
See that thing that was the pinnacle of your Hibs career - we’re gonna forget about that and judge you on a crappy night in Inverness instead...

He was actually brilliant one crappy night in Inverness as well, on the way to that defining day. Might've already been mentioned.

Centre Hawf
15-12-2017, 08:51 PM
It's fairly simple really.

Stokes has all the ability to make a difference, but his attitude and work rate means he will only do that on rare occasions.

Murray has the right attitude and work rate to make a difference, but his lack of genuine ability means he will only do that on rare occasions.

New striker needed as neither one of these men will take this club forward I'm afraid, thank you Stokes for that day in May, thank you Simon for your work ethic. But let's not sit and pretend that either one with these attributes alone will bang the goals in to get us challenging Aberdeen and Rangers for second.

Firestarter
15-12-2017, 09:11 PM
Don't need to kid on that Murray is better than Stokes because quite clearly he is not.

The guy was just pointing out that one player over another shows far more enthusiasm and, for me, that's the sort of attitude one should allude to applauding in a Hibs player.

I would rather have the class than looking happy playing. Trying hard gets you a lot of leeway these days end product or not.

majorhibs
15-12-2017, 09:12 PM
Correct & because he is ahead in his play when others aren't it makes him look like he has miss placed a pass, made a wrong run or no run etc etc.

See Stevie Archibald!

Firestarter
15-12-2017, 09:19 PM
Correct & because he is ahead in his play when others aren't it makes him look like he has miss placed a pass, made a wrong run or no run etc etc.

Correct.

jacomo
15-12-2017, 09:27 PM
It's fairly simple really.

Stokes has all the ability to make a difference, but his attitude and work rate means he will only do that on rare occasions.

Murray has the right attitude and work rate to make a difference, but his lack of genuine ability means he will only do that on rare occasions.

New striker needed as neither one of these men will take this club forward I'm afraid, thank you Stokes for that day in May, thank you Simon for your work ethic. But let's not sit and pretend that either one with these attributes alone will bang the goals in to get us challenging Aberdeen and Rangers for second.


Why don't we put them in a blender?

Murray's age, pace and attitude, mixed with Stokes' ability and awareness, and we'd have a £20m player.

Lago
15-12-2017, 09:45 PM
See Stevie Archibald!

There was a quality signing.

Eaststandee
15-12-2017, 09:58 PM
So because their body language is different we are to kid on Murray is better than Stokesy?

That's not what I said though is it?

I don't understand why you're slating Murray in defense of another player, if you think people's opinion of Stokes are wrong then fair enough, but why stick the boot into Murray? It adds nothing to the debate other than more negativity.

hhibs
15-12-2017, 10:02 PM
Anyone know who ,in Stokes career were his most successful partners?

Go get him if possible or identify his abilities and find another match for them.

Just a thought.

Northernhibee
15-12-2017, 10:54 PM
:agree: Quality player who's 2 steps ahead the rest. Up to the manager to motivate, deploy and get the best out of him.

Can't agree, if you're reliant on someone else to get you motivated to play for a club with the support and history of Hibs then just don't bother.

Stokes needs to take responsibility for himself and his attitude. Nobody else.

SChibs
15-12-2017, 11:59 PM
I disagree with most of this.

It's quite often not Stokes's role to drop deep. It was in the first half yesterday and he did ok. Various other times he has been asked to play at the tip of the spear and he's been found wanting.

You mention his ability to do something special. That is recognised and it's precisely because of this ability that people find him so frustrating - he's not contributing nearly enough for someone with that ability. That's his responsibility, it's nobody else's fault.

Murray doesn't get a fraction of the criticism that Stokes gets because he was a free transfer punt, he's performing far above most people's reasonable expectations and is clearly improving every month. He's earning his wage and more.

Stokes is meant to be our talisman, probably the highest paid player and a leader on the park. His body language is shocking, he's getting into arguments with team mates and manager and he's not delivering nearly enough on the park.

What do you mean it's not his role? If stokes wasn't to drop in for the ball surely Lennon would tell him not to do it. If he continued to do it he'd surely be dropped. How do you know where he is meant to be playing exactly?

Smartie
16-12-2017, 12:08 AM
Anyone know who ,in Stokes career were his most successful partners?

Go get him if possible or identify his abilities and find another match for them.

Just a thought.

One of the finest double-act performances I've seen at Easter Road was when Stokes and Hooper absolutely dismantled us when playing for Celtic a few years ago, possibly when Fenlon was our manager. They took about 6 off us, and I wouldn't have dreamt on that day that Stokes would be back with us within a few years.

Stokes had a Hampden-esque performance against us. Quick, nimble, mobile, he pulled us all over the place and Hooper did likewise.

The problem is, I don't think Stokes is the player he was at that time. He's not as fast, mobile or quick. Not to say he's not still a good player, he's just different, for a number of reasons, and who might have been the best partner for him then might not necessarily be the best partner for him now.

I genuinely don't know how the modern Stokes fits best into team, where he plays or who he partners.

Firestarter
16-12-2017, 01:27 AM
That's not what I said though is it?

I don't understand why you're slating Murray in defense of another player, if you think people's opinion of Stokes are wrong then fair enough, but why stick the boot into Murray? It adds nothing to the debate other than more negativity.

I'm not. Others brought Murray into it no me.

Firestarter
16-12-2017, 01:32 AM
Anyone know who ,in Stokes career were his most successful partners?

Go get him if possible or identify his abilities and find another match for them.

Just a thought.

Colin Nish?

I've mentioned before, the best season Stokes has had in his career is when he played with Zemmama and Liam Miller behind him. He outshine Riordan and I even remember him coming in off the right.

HoboHarry
16-12-2017, 05:58 AM
See Stevie Archibald!
Indeed - and not for Hibs of course but Kenny Dalglish for Scotland probably the best example of all....

eastcoasthibby
16-12-2017, 08:02 AM
I think its a mix of everything that means we're not getting the best benefitting from the real potential that Stokes has , some of it is about him and some what happens around him. The him part is about his attitude, committment, motivation and condition/fitness.
The whats around him is service to him, players on his wavelength, movement to give him space or work off him, understand and support his strengths, ..ie he wont run and burst his backside, as much as others, his ability is with the ball at his feet.
I get as frustrated as anyone with him and if I was to pick the biggest problem affecting his performances it would be his attitude doesnt focus and work hard enough to get the ball or retain the ball. Some of which leads to my questioning his fitness and his relationship with team mates, it looks like he is constantly moaning about things, I get.that to an extent given some of the service he gets and also lack of service, instead of when it breaks down moaning maybe its a chat about what was expected and encouragement to do it better,he should be.one.of our few leaders on the pitch, with his experience, knowledge and ability...he is as he shows at times has the ability to dominate games and get more.out of those around him but as is well recorded doesn't do it anywhere often enough, ...hence is he fit enough and able to do what he wants in games ....at the end of all.that he has great ability nust needs.to get himself into the right.mental and.physical shape to be able.to do it throughout games ...if we could get another 20-30 % out.of him this thread wouldn't exist.

Forza Fred
16-12-2017, 10:48 AM
One of the finest double-act performances I've seen at Easter Road was when Stokes and Hooper absolutely dismantled us when playing for Celtic a few years ago, possibly when Fenlon was our manager. They took about 6 off us, and I wouldn't have dreamt on that day that Stokes would be back with us within a few years.

Stokes had a Hampden-esque performance against us. Quick, nimble, mobile, he pulled us all over the place and Hooper did likewise.

The problem is, I don't think Stokes is the player he was at that time. He's not as fast, mobile or quick. Not to say he's not still a good player, he's just different, for a number of reasons, and who might have been the best partner for him then might not necessarily be the best partner for him now.

I genuinely don't know how the modern Stokes fits best into team, where he plays or who he partners.

Good post.

That's the way I remember him at Hampden playing on the left when he ripped us apart in the 2013 cup final.

Him and Hooper were in another class that day.

madhatter
16-12-2017, 11:44 AM
He is so good that he is on the bench today. He has all the skill necessary to be successful even now at the latter stages of his career. He sorely needs to get his head sorted and show what he can genuinely do and not in small flickers. He’s playing like a winger, so inconsistent and more often than not terrible with the odd flurry of excellence.

The Leith Dutch
16-12-2017, 12:04 PM
I think singling out one player - either Stokes or Murray - misses the real problems we have:



We don't create particularly good chances - our crossing is poor and we lack a killer ball creative player
We don't have goal scoring midfielders (Boyle being the possible exception)
We can't shoot from distance
None of our strikers are either a classic poacher or a Griffiths like "goal from nothing" player


You can add to that the fact that all those things combine to make the situation worse (e.g. the inability to shoot from distance and lack of goal scoring midfielders make the defenders job of marking the strikers easier).

We're be no means a bad team but I think we'll continue to drop silly and frustrating points until we address at least 3 of the above issues.

Johnny_Leith
16-12-2017, 12:14 PM
One of the finest double-act performances I've seen at Easter Road was when Stokes and Hooper absolutely dismantled us when playing for Celtic a few years ago, possibly when Fenlon was our manager. They took about 6 off us, and I wouldn't have dreamt on that day that Stokes would be back with us within a few years.

Stokes had a Hampden-esque performance against us. Quick, nimble, mobile, he pulled us all over the place and Hooper did likewise.

The problem is, I don't think Stokes is the player he was at that time. He's not as fast, mobile or quick. Not to say he's not still a good player, he's just different, for a number of reasons, and who might have been the best partner for him then might not necessarily be the best partner for him now.

I genuinely don't know how the modern Stokes fits best into team, where he plays or who he partners.

Problem is at Celtic, Stokes wasn't isolated like he is playing for Hibs. He's our marquee player, and if often doubled up against as he's one of our main goalscoring threats. At Celtic he was one of a number and wouldn't be singled out like he is at Hibs. When he's left one on one with a full back, that's when the magic happens.

madhatter
16-12-2017, 12:20 PM
I think singling out one player - either Stokes or Murray - misses the real problems we have:



We don't create particularly good chances - our crossing is poor and we lack a killer ball creative player
We don't have goal scoring midfielders (Boyle being the possible exception)
We can't shoot from distance
None of our strikers are either a classic poacher or a Griffiths like "goal from nothing" player


You can add to that the fact that all those things combine to make the situation worse (e.g. the inability to shoot from distance and lack of goal scoring midfielders make the defenders job of marking the strikers easier).

We're be no means a bad team but I think we'll continue to drop silly and frustrating points until we address at least 3 of the above issues.

I agree but we whipped in 3-4 great crosses against Rangers and nobody was there. Stokes was caught about 5 yards offside after Barker hit the post. That’s nothing to do with him not being a poacher, that is laziness and watching the ball. Murray is more of a poacher but even he was caught offside about 4 times and didn’t burst into the box for all but 1 cross. Again that is laziness and ball watching, he needs to move. His attempt at a finish on the cross he did get to was woeful.

We can shoot from distance, the problem is we make the pitch too narrow at times and without movement from Murray and Stokes etc. We are pretty much helping the opposition to make a wall. Far too congested to get a clean shot off.