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View Full Version : Will the chants ever be banned rather than “banned”?



madhatter
13-12-2017, 10:59 PM
I dislike Celtic quite a bit but Rangers are on another level. When will their sectarian chants actually be punished? Surely they’ll be a lengthy investigation followed by 3500 arrests? Big fine for them? Hate Scotland and Scottish Football sometimes...can’t even come up with rules that we enforce. We get a warning before each match and their whole stand ignored it...

Handball isn’t handball.
Sectarian chant isn’t sectarian.

Football is corrupt and we all know it. It’s a worldwide issue but instead of ignoring it and trying to improve the game in our country, we become tribal and let the corruption run riot. Every club outside the old firm should genuinely start putting pressure on the SFA collectively but they won’t...

Sick of it.

P.S. A few Hibs players need to take a look at themselves as they let their teammates down tonight. McGeouch, Barker and Boyle were the best. The rest were so-so. Murray should’ve been hooked instead of Shaw. Rangers were there for the taking, they are worst team I’ve seen this season at ER.

hibsbollah
13-12-2017, 11:01 PM
Until any journalist dares to acknowledge it, nothing will change.

Sammy7nil
13-12-2017, 11:11 PM
Until any journalist dares to acknowledge it, nothing will change.

Until it is self Policed it won't stop and that ain't happenening anytime soon.

The Harp Awakes
13-12-2017, 11:14 PM
I dislike Celtic quite a bit but Rangers are on another level. When will their sectarian chants actually be punished? Surely they’ll be a lengthy investigation followed by 3500 arrests? Big fine for them? Hate Scotland and Scottish Football sometimes...can’t even come up with rules that we enforce. We get a warning before each match and their whole stand ignored it...

Handball isn’t handball.
Sectarian chant isn’t sectarian.

Football is corrupt and we all know it. It’s a worldwide issue but instead of ignoring it and trying to improve the game in our country, we become tribal and let the corruption run riot. Every club outside the old firm should genuinely start putting pressure on the SFA collectively but they won’t...

Sick of it.

P.S. A few Hibs players need to take a look at themselves as they let their teammates down tonight. McGeouch, Barker and Boyle were the best. The rest were so-so. Murray should’ve been hooked instead of Shaw. Rangers were there for the taking, they are worst team I’ve seen this season at ER.

In today's politically correct society it's incredible that these cretins continue to get away singing this sectarian, racist bile. There were 3500 of them behind the goal tonight belting out that stuff, as they do week in week out, but they are untouchable. 'Zombies' is complimentary to them.

CMurdoch
13-12-2017, 11:15 PM
Take a chill pill.

Their chants wash over me.
Too busy watching my team to listen to all that wallpaper drivel.

Watch the hellish human suffering on the news for something to be outraged at.

paddy1875
13-12-2017, 11:16 PM
Journalists do write about it now and again. The problem is that it’s not just a small number that can be policed by other supporters. It’s them all.


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capitals_finest
13-12-2017, 11:19 PM
It amazes me that in today's Scotland, that they can behave the way the do and it still gets swept under the carpet.

One Day Soon
13-12-2017, 11:24 PM
If there is literally no consequence to their actions why on earth would they stop singing this sectarian bile?

MWHIBBIES
13-12-2017, 11:24 PM
Stop giving them 3.5k tickets. Give them the same they give us and the treat them like the ****ing window licking, knuckle dragging vermin that they are.

madhatter
13-12-2017, 11:29 PM
Take a chill pill.

Their chants wash over me.
Too busy watching my team to listen to all that wallpaper drivel.

Watch the hellish human suffering on the news for something to be outraged at.

The song they sing is banned. It was sung by 3500 fans.

Human suffering is awful, if you are outraged by that then I’m sure you are planning to do something about it personally as you certainly seem to be trying to take a bizarre route to some moral high ground...

I’m sorry we can’t all obviously compartmentalise our “outrage”. I’ll try to take more chill pills. Just enough so that stuff that I personally witness “washes over me” (spit and sectarian slurs and all) but not too much so that I don’t nulify my outrage to stuff on the news.

Just so you know I’m outraged by many things going on in this world. Depresses me the most that we can’t even fix it in a rudimentary thing like sporting events though. What chance do we have on bigger world problems as countries begin to close its borders and tribalism becomes the fad.

Not In The Know
13-12-2017, 11:38 PM
Take a chill pill.

Their chants wash over me.
Too busy watching my team to listen to all that wallpaper drivel.

Watch the hellish human suffering on the news for something to be outraged at.

The failure to respect each other’s Religion is to blame for most of that

Hibrandenburg
13-12-2017, 11:39 PM
Until it is self Policed it won't stop and that ain't happenening anytime soon.

Until it starts costing their club money it will not be self policed.

Hibernia&Alba
13-12-2017, 11:42 PM
Even The Billy Boys has returned, after they were forced to stop it for a few seasons. Where's the follow up from the authorities?

Until we get strict liability and it begins to hurt the team, they'll just continue.

HarpyHibby
13-12-2017, 11:47 PM
The only way to put a stop to it inside a football stadium is for the SFA to take a zero tolerance policy and start fining the clubs. Sectarian bigotry is no different to racism or homophobia yet it is totally swept under the carpet. We have these ‘Show Racism The Red Card’ campaigns every so often but what’s the ****ing point? Racism isn’t an issue in the game in Scotland but sectarian bigotry is.

CMurdoch
13-12-2017, 11:51 PM
The song they sing is banned. It was sung by 3500 fans.

Human suffering is awful, if you are outraged by that then I’m sure you are planning to do something about it personally as you certainly seem to be trying to take a bizarre route to some moral high ground...

I’m sorry we can’t all obviously compartmentalise our “outrage”. I’ll try to take more chill pills. Just enough so that stuff that I personally witness “washes over me” (spit and sectarian slurs and all) but not too much so that I don’t nulify my outrage to stuff on the news.

Just so you know I’m outraged by many things going on in this world. Depresses me the most that we can’t even fix it in a rudimentary thing like sporting events though. What chance do we have on bigger world problems as countries begin to close its borders and tribalism becomes the fad.

Why get annoyed.
The football authorities have had forever to sort sectarian singing out and have made no real effort. Massive fines and more so point removal would stop it dead.
From a Hibs point of view, it is within our clubs power to drastically reduce the number of tickets available to their supporters to come to our ground. Our club choose to take their money rather than take a moral stance.

CMurdoch
13-12-2017, 11:53 PM
The failure to respect each other’s Religion is to blame for most of that

Is it not more about money and power masquerading as religious conflict

pedroorange1875
13-12-2017, 11:56 PM
Celtic sang quite a few IRA songs loud and clear on Sunday

CMurdoch
13-12-2017, 11:58 PM
Celtic sang quite a few IRA songs loud and clear on Sunday

and apparently caused lots of damage in the south stand.

madhatter
14-12-2017, 12:00 AM
Why get annoyed.
The football authorities have had forever to sort sectarian singing out and have made no real effort. Massive fines and more so point removal would stop it dead.
From a Hibs point of view, it is within our clubs power to drastically reduce the number of tickets available to their supporters to come to our ground. Our club choose to take their money rather than take a moral stance.

Hibs prefer to take Rangers money rather than protect their fans from being spat on? I sincerely hope that isn’t the case. The phrase “taking a moral stance” almost has worse connotations than “committing a crime” these days.

madhatter
14-12-2017, 12:03 AM
and apparently caused lots of damage in the south stand.

They should get the same punishment. What is this? Almost seems like sticking up for Rangers by saying their ugly sister did the same. Wrong is wrong, sorry no debating. Give Celtic and Rangers 0 seats at ER until they have sorted fan behaviour.

cabbageandribs1875
14-12-2017, 12:06 AM
Stop giving them 3.5k tickets. Give them the same they give us and the treat them like the ****ing window licking, knuckle dragging vermin that they are.



:agree: but unfortunately petrie won't do it

Sir David Gray
14-12-2017, 12:06 AM
The only way to put a stop to it inside a football stadium is for the SFA to take a zero tolerance policy and start fining the clubs. Sectarian bigotry is no different to racism or homophobia yet it is totally swept under the carpet. We have these ‘Show Racism The Red Card’ campaigns every so often but what’s the ****ing point? Racism isn’t an issue in the game in Scotland but sectarian bigotry is.

The last part of your post is bang on.

Everything seems to be focused on beating racism at the moment but in Scotland, sectarianism is a far worse problem in football than racism.

Sir David Gray
14-12-2017, 12:13 AM
They should get the same punishment. What is this? Almost seems like sticking up for Rangers by saying their ugly sister did the same. Wrong is wrong, sorry no debating. Give Celtic and Rangers 0 seats at ER until they have sorted fan behaviour.

I would gladly see both sets of fans banned from Easter Road.

If I was a millionaire, I would pay Hibs for the lost revenue after each home game against the pair of them.

Utter dregs of society.

CMurdoch
14-12-2017, 12:20 AM
Hibs prefer to take Rangers money rather than protect their fans from being spat on? I sincerely hope that isn’t the case. The phrase “taking a moral stance” almost has worse connotations than “committing a crime” these days.

There is no mention of being spat on in your original post
You were complaining about sectarian singing and dodgy refereeing

CMurdoch
14-12-2017, 12:21 AM
They should get the same punishment. What is this? Almost seems like sticking up for Rangers by saying their ugly sister did the same. Wrong is wrong, sorry no debating. Give Celtic and Rangers 0 seats at ER until they have sorted fan behaviour.

Take it up with Leanne and Rod.
FWIW we also have dick heads in our support, just not as many,

madhatter
14-12-2017, 12:27 AM
There is no mention of being spat on in your original post
You were complaining about sectarian singing and dodgy refereeing

No, the spitting is mentioned on the other thread here though.

Just so you are aware, as others have pointed out, sectarian chants are on a similar level to racism. Just because it doesn’t bother you doesn’t mean it isn’t wrong. For instance if someone called me a “white” this or that I wouldn’t care but it’s wrong. Sectarian chants are the same. Show racism red card in this country is just ironic, nothing else - “we won’t discriminate for your skin colour but we will happily permit other discrimination”. Farce.

Nicho87
14-12-2017, 12:32 AM
As someone posted. If hibs directors felt the need for it. Offer them the absolute minimum tickets. 5% of capacity is it. Even then that would be too much for that lot. Horrible club with mostly horrible supporters.

madhatter
14-12-2017, 12:33 AM
Take it up with Leanne and Rod.
FWIW we also have dick heads in our support, just not as many,

FWIW I’ve never seen whole of ER singing sectarian chants in my time, that isn’t to say it’s never happened.

They have sung these things for years at ER. Not handful of them or small section. Whole stand singing banned songs. They are a collective and clearly untouchable. This “it was worse in my day” and the “man up” type stuff that is put out there to undermine people’s discomfort at hearing these things while watching a football event is getting tiresome.

I’m sure Leanne and Rod would listen to me...

kaimendhibs
14-12-2017, 01:29 AM
Just because someone lets it wash over them doesnt mean its ok or legal. Homophobic or racist chants would be severley punished, why not sectarianism. Give them no tickets until its sorted. Would someone standing on princes street chanting that filth amongst shoppers etc be lifted, damn right they would.

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CMurdoch
14-12-2017, 01:44 AM
FWIW I’ve never seen whole of ER singing sectarian chants in my time, that isn’t to say it’s never happened.

They have sung these things for years at ER. Not handful of them or small section. Whole stand singing banned songs. They are a collective and clearly untouchable. This “it was worse in my day” and the “man up” type stuff that is put out there to undermine people’s discomfort at hearing these things while watching a football event is getting tiresome.

I’m sure Leanne and Rod would listen to me...

i don't disagree with anything you say about the sectarian behaviour of old firm fans but people won't change anything by getting annoyed on social media. Every match we play against the old firm is followed by an outraged post on hibs.net about sectarian singing and cheating/incompetent referees.
As I say the solution is with the football authorities and Hibernian F.C.

Old Firm fans sectarian singing inside the stadium has gone on for all of the 50 years I have followed football and although normal folk think it is wrong nothing has changed in all that time.
I was being honest when I said I don't hear them anymore. Their bad behaviour outside the ground should be crushed by the Police.
Our club are not tarnished by sectarian issues but some of our morons have written books about their violent behaviour on Scotland's Streets which was a lot worse than singing songs.

Regrettably there are lots of thick and twisted people who attach themselves to football clubs including ours.

Smartie
14-12-2017, 04:51 AM
FWIW I’ve never seen whole of ER singing sectarian chants in my time, that isn’t to say it’s never happened.

They have sung these things for years at ER. Not handful of them or small section. Whole stand singing banned songs. They are a collective and clearly untouchable. This “it was worse in my day” and the “man up” type stuff that is put out there to undermine people’s discomfort at hearing these things while watching a football event is getting tiresome.

I’m sure Leanne and Rod would listen to me...

Rod and Leanne would listen to you, but as long as you are prepared to pitch up and pay for your tickets, they wouldn't have any desire to do anything about it and would surely encourage you to "move on".

Rod and Leanne represent the disgusting institutional tolerance of sectarianism that exists within Scottish football and in Scottish society in general.

We've had it from both cheeks over the past few days and it isn't acceptable from either.

As long as Hibs are willing to quietly profit from it going on in our ground (even if it in the away end) then we must accept that with our silence we are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

seanshow
14-12-2017, 07:39 AM
As we know when games are played directly under UEFA's watch, banners and songs are dealt with in monetary fines for clubs or potential closed door games.
The SPFL will never bring in strict liability, the Two plump turkeys are never likely to vote for christmas ( to use a festive analogy) and sign their own commercial death warrant.


For what its worth I've had thoughts of a potential solution to the whole thing for a while, but it's a bit extreme so I'd best keep my own counsel.

Bishop Hibee
14-12-2017, 08:02 AM
The failure to respect each other’s Religion is to blame for most of that

Aye the human suffering caused by poverty is religion’s fault. Good one.

Meanwhile on planet Earth, “Hullo Hullo” being back in the songbook and “FTP” to the tune of Tom Hark are scandalous. Completely ignored by MSM and Police Scotland. Ach well, it’s only Roman Catholic’s they’re abusing 🙁

Brizo
14-12-2017, 01:06 PM
The failure to respect each other’s Religion is to blame for most of that

"Religion" is just a label, its predominantly anti Irish ethnic hatred. Fenian , taig, tarrier... all insults that are specifically anti Irish Catholic.

Id be amazed if even a handful of the 3500 huns present last night ever go anywhere near a church apart from maybe the odd wedding or funeral.

Inviting them to an ecumenical service isn't going to stop 100 hundred plus years of hun bile :wink:.

Its ingrained inbred tribalism and a complacent compliant Scottish football establishment and Scottish media establishment allow their "tribe" to go unchecked.

If last nights songs of hate had been directed against the LGBT community, Muslims or Sikhs it would be getting debated in the Scottish Parliament today.

BullsCloseHibs
14-12-2017, 01:24 PM
There really is a simple solution to this problem. Simply ban ALL Rangers fans from Easter Road. Then, after time, allow some back. If it starts again, ban back in place. It really IS that simple to police.

21.05.2016
14-12-2017, 01:26 PM
Sectarianism, bigotry, hatred and just general all round horribleness is so ingrained into Rangers FC that unless you take part, you stand out in their support like a sore thumb and are even critisised by the rangers support. Its quite remarkable that you could get such a large group of people together with such vile mindsets but that is the rangers support. You only need to have a quick look at some of the rangers fans twitter pages and that tells you all you need to know about that despicable mob. A club truly rotten to its very core.


Supporting hibs is certainly no picnic at times but I tell you what every day I thank every single star in the sky that I wasn't raised as one of them. Utterly deplorable bunch.

21.05.2016
14-12-2017, 01:29 PM
There really is a simple solution to this problem. Simply ban ALL Rangers fans from Easter Road. Then, after time, allow some back. If it starts again, ban back in place. It really IS that simple to police.

No, for me the solution is simple - actually ADDRESS the problem. Too many in authority and the media bury their heads in the sand and try and sweep it all under the carpet to avoid (God forbid :rolleyes:) upsetting their precious old firm. Spineless cowards.

CMurdoch
14-12-2017, 01:45 PM
We are Hibernian FC
We hate Jam Tarts and we hate Dundee
We will fight wherever we may be
'Cause we are the mental H F C

So our supporters sing that they hate Hearts & Dundee and will fight wherever they may be because they are mental.

Do any of you question singing this hate and violence glorifying ditty?

I used to sing it without thinking about the words when I was a kid but wouldn't now because it is a bit pathetic.

Thoughts?

Kato
14-12-2017, 03:04 PM
We are Hibernian FC
We hate Jam Tarts and we hate Dundee
We will fight wherever we may be
'Cause we are the mental H F C

So our supporters sing that they hate Hearts & Dundee and will fight wherever they may be because they are mental.

Do any of you question singing this hate and violence glorifying ditty?

I used to sing it without thinking about the words when I was a kid but wouldn't now because it is a bit pathetic.

Thoughts?

Do you think you can equate a tribal football orientated chant, which the vast majority of the time when sung is never ever, followed through literally to centuries of institutionalised/ingrained Anti-Catholicism, endless incidents of violence, overtly sectarian chants, increased domestic violence whenever their team loses, instructing their children in the ways of Scottish bigotry, supporting far right-wing political groups and daily casual racism/bigotry on social media.

One seems to bother you whilst the other you can easily ignore, maybe that's your own personal way of dealing with it so all respect to you, carry on. That doesn't mean everyone has to take your head-in-the-sand approach.

sauzee_4
14-12-2017, 03:23 PM
Something needs to be done about this chanting and it's going to have to be from the bottom up. The SPFL are *****ing themselves to apply a 'dock points' rule for sectarian singing (which looks like the only way to resolve this problem) but if enough people kick up a fuss about this there must be a way to have them adopt this.

Has anyone considered getting a change.org petition on the go? Is it not true to say that if theres enough signatures it gets debated in parliament?

CropleyWasGod
14-12-2017, 03:26 PM
Something needs to be done about this chanting and it's going to have to be from the bottom up. The SPFL are *****ing themselves to apply a 'dock points' rule for sectarian singing (which looks like the only way to resolve this problem) but if enough people kick up a fuss about this there must be a way to have them adopt this.

Has anyone considered getting a change.org petition on the go? Is it not true to say that if theres enough signatures it gets debated in parliament?

It's the clubs that have rejected it. The SPFL is the clubs.

John_R_Corbett
14-12-2017, 03:26 PM
Something needs to be done about this chanting and it's going to have to be from the bottom up. The SPFL are *****ing themselves to apply a 'dock points' rule for sectarian singing (which looks like the only way to resolve this problem) but if enough people kick up a fuss about this there must be a way to have them adopt this.

Has anyone considered getting a change.org petition on the go? Is it not true to say that if theres enough signatures it gets debated in parliament?SPFL & the GFA **** themselves to apply any of their rules to them but they can make up some new ones to suit them, they're very good at that.

CMurdoch
14-12-2017, 03:49 PM
Do you think you can equate a tribal football orientated chant, which the vast majority of the time when sung is never ever, followed through literally to centuries of institutionalised/ingrained Anti-Catholicism, endless incidents of violence, overtly sectarian chants, increased domestic violence whenever their team loses, instructing their children in the ways of Scottish bigotry, supporting far right-wing political groups and daily casual racism/bigotry on social media.

One seems to bother you whilst the other you can easily ignore, maybe that's your own personal way of dealing with it so all respect to you, carry on. That doesn't mean everyone has to take your head-in-the-sand approach.

They both bother me and I ignore both because they are pathetic.
They both make you feel dirty and make football supporters look ignorant and small.

I don't understand how any educated adult would be comfortable with singing the up to their knees in fenian blood line.
Silly wee boys and thicko's yes but normal folk. Lost on me and I couldn't support them.

Of course it is wrong that moron parents indoctrinate their kids with this poisoned guff.

Keep politics, religion, union jacks, and Irish flags away from Scottish football teams.

I am proud of our club and the vast majority of our supporters.
It's best we look after our own house and self Police our own dickheid supporters so that they don't embarrass us.
That means standing up to them if you see them pissing in folks gardens, damaging seats and toilets at other grounds, behaving like dicks etc

Bishop Hibee
14-12-2017, 03:51 PM
"Religion" is just a label, its predominantly anti Irish ethnic hatred. Fenian , taig, tarrier... all insults that are specifically anti Irish Catholic.

Id be amazed if even a handful of the 3500 huns present last night ever go anywhere near a church apart from maybe the odd wedding or funeral.

Inviting them to an ecumenical service isn't going to stop 100 hundred plus years of hun bile :wink:.

Its ingrained inbred tribalism and a complacent compliant Scottish football establishment and Scottish media establishment allow their "tribe" to go unchecked.

If last nights songs of hate had been directed against the LGBT community, Muslims or Sikhs it would be getting debated in the Scottish Parliament today.

Correct. It’s swept under the carpet in 21st C Scotland.

The Modfather
14-12-2017, 04:15 PM
Is this something one of the fans reps could raise to the board and get their thoughts on the matter and what they, and everyone else in Scottish football, is doing behind the scenes that we as fans aren’t aware of?

Surely we are in a position to take the lead on tackling this issue, particularly as we have one of our own at the SFA who can help influence and represent us on this.

sauzee_4
14-12-2017, 04:18 PM
It's the clubs that have rejected it. The SPFL is the clubs.

So the 12 Premiership clubs have debated the 'docking points' option and decided against it? Didn't realise that. And I'm very surprised by that too.

CropleyWasGod
14-12-2017, 04:21 PM
Is this something one of the fans reps could raise to the board and get their thoughts on the matter and what they, and everyone else in Scottish football, is doing behind the scenes that we as fans aren’t aware of?

Surely we are in a position to take the lead on tackling this issue, particularly as we have one of our own at the SFA who can help influence and represent us on this.

Are you talking about the clubs taking responsibility for their supporters? If so, the clubs themselves kicked that out the park a while back.

The likeliest route is by way of SG action:-

http://nilbymouth.org/2017/strict-liability-campaign-heats-up-as-campaigners-hit-holyrood/

John_R_Corbett
14-12-2017, 04:22 PM
Is this something one of the fans reps could raise to the board and get their thoughts on the matter and what they, and everyone else in Scottish football, is doing behind the scenes that we as fans aren’t aware of?

Surely we are in a position to take the lead on tackling this issue, particularly as we have one of our own at the SFA who can help influence and represent us on this.Like they done anything about the way Hibs fans are treated at ipox! What makes you think anybody is doing anything behind the scenes? You seriously think having Petrie at the GFA makes a difference? Like he's going to rock the boat. It's not that long ago we saw an example of what having Petrie at the GFA achieves, his brush is just as big as anybody else's when it comes to sweeping stuff under the carpet.

CropleyWasGod
14-12-2017, 04:23 PM
So the 12 Premiership clubs have debated the 'docking points' option and decided against it? Didn't realise that. And I'm very surprised by that too.

The SPFL has 42 clubs.

Here's what happened a couple of years ago:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35349978

CMurdoch
14-12-2017, 04:33 PM
Are you talking about the clubs taking responsibility for their supporters? If so, the clubs themselves kicked that out the park a while back.

The likeliest route is by way of SG action:-

http://nilbymouth.org/2017/strict-liability-campaign-heats-up-as-campaigners-hit-holyrood/


That is the only possible route for real action

N.B. The SFA kicking strict liability into touch in 2013 saved Hibs ass after the cup final shenanigans.
Had that been in place we would have been clobbered.

sauzee_4
14-12-2017, 04:38 PM
The SPFL has 42 clubs.

Here's what happened a couple of years ago:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35349978

That article states the Alloa chairman is against strict liability and the Kilmarnock chairman is for it. Doesn't say the 42 SPFL clubs have debated it and rejected it (not doubting you like).

If they have debated and rejected it I really don't see why. The only clubs (really) who would have anything to lose would be the Old Firm.

The Modfather
14-12-2017, 04:39 PM
Are you talking about the clubs taking responsibility for their supporters? If so, the clubs themselves kicked that out the park a while back.

The likeliest route is by way of SG action:-

http://nilbymouth.org/2017/strict-liability-campaign-heats-up-as-campaigners-hit-holyrood/

I wasn’t talking about any specific outcome, although i’m personally in favour of strict liability. I’m as cynical as the next man when it comes to the desire of clubs, especially ours, to tackling this problem. However i’m all for constructive discussions with the club through channels like the supporters reps.

This is something i’d be happy to give up my time and effort to taking forward, but like all things wouldn’t have the first idea where or how to begin.

sauzee_4
14-12-2017, 04:40 PM
That is the only possible route for real action

N.B. The SFA kicking strict liability into touch in 2013 saved Hibs ass after the cup final shenanigans.
Had that been in place we would have been clobbered.

Maybe if Strict Liability was in force and everyone knew what the consequences were. There would have been no pitch invasion?

Sectarian chanting should be a 3 point deduction

CropleyWasGod
14-12-2017, 04:46 PM
That article states the Alloa chairman is against strict liability and the Kilmarnock chairman is for it. Doesn't say the 42 SPFL clubs have debated it and rejected it (not doubting you like).

If they have debated and rejected it I really don't see why. The only clubs (really) who would have anything to lose would be the Old Firm.

Every club who has a random dickhead who runs on the park, or sets off a flare, would be liable for action. Indeed, there is a case for saying that something like that poses a greater risk than some songs.

CMurdoch
14-12-2017, 04:49 PM
Maybe if Strict Liability was in force and everyone knew what the consequences were. There would have been no pitch invasion?

Sectarian chanting should be a 3 point deduction

Football teams especially the bigger ones won't go for strict liability.
It could be a harsh mistress.
Could see us getting caught out at Edinburgh derbies.

Kato
14-12-2017, 04:56 PM
They both bother me and I ignore both because they are pathetic.
They both make you feel dirty and make football supporters look ignorant and small.


That's quite a selfish outlook. The Hibs chant is a feeble (looked thru modern eyes) attempt at intimidation the whole "Rangers" culture is an attempt at keeping alive centuries of bigotry. They are hardly comparable taken in context of Scottish culture as a whole.

blackpoolhibs
14-12-2017, 05:02 PM
Football teams especially the bigger ones won't go for strict liability.
It could be a harsh mistress.
Could see us getting caught out at Edinburgh derbies.

So we just have to put up with it then?

Whatever happened to paying the fine if you do the crime?

CropleyWasGod
14-12-2017, 05:11 PM
So we just have to put up with it then?

Whatever happened to paying the fine if you do the crime?

If James Dornan's bill becomes law, then we'll all have to pay the fines.

If SL comes in, it opens up a new debate on the relative sanctions needed for each "offence". eg, is a smoke bomb more dangerous than a song? Does that, in itself, make it more worthy of a points deduction?

And, does SL actually work? Have the numerous fines imposed on Celtic by UEFA actually stopped their "political acts"?

CMurdoch
14-12-2017, 05:19 PM
So we just have to put up with it then?

Whatever happened to paying the fine if you do the crime?

Hibs are one of the bigger teams who won't go for it.
We would have been paying a big fine for our cup final crimes had strict liability not been rejected and we would have all been moaning about getting picked on by the GFA

blackpoolhibs
14-12-2017, 05:30 PM
Hibs are one of the bigger teams who won't go for it.
We would have been paying a big fine for our cup final crimes had strict liability not been rejected and we would have all been moaning about getting picked on by the GFA

You need to start somewhere, if we deserve a punishment why should we not be punished? :confused:

John_R_Corbett
14-12-2017, 05:32 PM
Hibs are one of the bigger teams who won't go for it.
We would have been paying a big fine for our cup final crimes had strict liability not been rejected and we would have all been moaning about getting picked on by the GFAWe wouldn't be getting picked on as much two certain other teams, they'd be getting picked on every week if it was applied properly and that's why we don't have it.

madhatter
14-12-2017, 05:38 PM
The irony of the strict liability and this debate is that if enough fans do the wrong thing then it doesn't matter...we wouldn't apply the rules and the law. That's what I'm annoyed at, we can't even categorically say what is wrong. Racism is wrong but bigotry is wrongish (kind of... at least what is written about it claims as such but actions suggest otherwise).

If a whole stand each let off a flare at every ground in Scotland, would every club close that stand or play closed door matches for a period of time? Don't think so, there would be a review of what the "norm" is and they'd all ask very politely that it stopped. 3-4 fans let of a flare and they are banned. Justice and morals is a numbers game, if you want to do something unjust get a few thousand folk to so the same and you're largely fine.

sauzee_4
14-12-2017, 05:48 PM
Hibs are one of the bigger teams who won't go for it.
We would have been paying a big fine for our cup final crimes had strict liability not been rejected and we would have all been moaning about getting picked on by the GFA

We are speaking about points deductions though. Personally, I don't think a club fine is going to prevent the average fan invading the pitch/throwing a flair/singing a sectarian song. A points deduction might

sauzee_4
14-12-2017, 05:53 PM
Every club who has a random dickhead who runs on the park, or sets off a flare, would be liable for action. Indeed, there is a case for saying that something like that poses a greater risk than some songs.

I think I've seen two flares thrown from Hibs fans in my 29 years of watching Hibs.

Onion
14-12-2017, 05:54 PM
No serious action will be taken by Celtic or The Rangers Boards as religious hatred in the lifeblood of their clubs. If they endangered the "special atmosphere", their crowds would collapse, threatening revenue for media, TV companies and the football authorities.

Through their weekly inaction, the Police, courts and authorities have given tentative approval to the singing of offensive, sectarian and bigoted songs at matches. If other clubs fans REALLY want force the authorities to do something about it they can ... in protest, they could simply start singing offensive, sectarian, hate-filled songs.

Hibs & Hearts fans could reintroduce all those ditty's we used to chant/sing in the 70s. Aberdeen, Dundee, Killie, et al could pick, choose and make up new horrendous sectarian songs. Yes, it's extreme, yes, it would be uncomfortable for all us right-minded 21 century fans and yes, the SFA / SPFL would hammer all the smaller clubs first just because they can, but it is guaranteed to face the authorities hand.

The Pointer
14-12-2017, 05:57 PM
What gets me is that the other mob on Sunday were singing equally, in my mind, offensive songs in support of terrorists and nobody says a thing. No boos, nothing, just get on with watching the game.

Two plooks on an *rse indeed.

bigwheel
14-12-2017, 05:58 PM
so this might end up triggering another 10 pages on this...but here goes - honestly, I do not care what they chant - they are words of bigotry and hate - it reflects on them and no-one else. it affects their image across Scotland and beyond - they can bang on for me - does nothing good for them.

CMurdoch
14-12-2017, 06:01 PM
That's quite a selfish outlook. The Hibs chant is a feeble (looked thru modern eyes) attempt at intimidation the whole "Rangers" culture is an attempt at keeping alive centuries of bigotry. They are hardly comparable taken in context of Scottish culture as a whole.

Yours is an intellectual argument. I'm a realist. The singers are a combination of 90 minute bigots and the intellectually challenged combined with a few nasties.

I made sure my children were brought up to be polite, compassionate and tolerant but I can't make everyone in Glasgow bring up their kids in the same way. My kids behaviour reflects well or badly on me, other kids behaviour doesn't.
Similarly I think we as Hibs supporters should try to ensure our fellow Hibs supporters behave in a decent manner.
Rangers & Celtic supporters behaviour isn't something we can easily influence. They embarrass themselves and their club.

I remember football supporters throwing golf balls, bottles of pish, and apples with razor blades in them, think I would rather take my chances with a horrible song.
Things have improved but they still have a fair way to go.

I am the same age as you and have lived through all the same things.
In all that time our football club has not seen fit to ban or even reduce the number of old firm supporters coming to our home and as such are complicit.
In effect they put money before morality.

IlDiavola
14-12-2017, 06:19 PM
I dislike Celtic quite a bit but Rangers are on another level. When will their sectarian chants actually be punished? Surely they’ll be a lengthy investigation followed by 3500 arrests? Big fine for them? Hate Scotland and Scottish Football sometimes...can’t even come up with rules that we enforce. We get a warning before each match and their whole stand ignored it...

Handball isn’t handball.
Sectarian chant isn’t sectarian.

Football is corrupt and we all know it. It’s a worldwide issue but instead of ignoring it and trying to improve the game in our country, we become tribal and let the corruption run riot. Every club outside the old firm should genuinely start putting pressure on the SFA collectively but they won’t...

Sick of it.

P.S. A few Hibs players need to take a look at themselves as they let their teammates down tonight. McGeouch, Barker and Boyle were the best. The rest were so-so. Murray should’ve been hooked instead of Shaw. Rangers were there for the taking, they are worst team I’ve seen this season at ER.

Hearts?

OxoHibby
14-12-2017, 06:31 PM
Yours is an intellectual argument. I'm a realist. The singers are a combination of 90 minute bigots and the intellectually challenged combined with a few nasties.

I made sure my children were brought up to be polite, compassionate and tolerant but I can't make everyone in Glasgow bring up their kids in the same way. My kids behaviour reflects well or badly on me, other kids behaviour doesn't.
Similarly I think we as Hibs supporters should try to ensure our fellow Hibs supporters behave in a decent manner.
Rangers & Celtic supporters behaviour isn't something we can easily influence. They embarrass themselves and their club.

I remember football supporters throwing golf balls, bottles of pish, and apples with razor blades in them, think I would rather take my chances with a horrible song.
Things have improved but they still have a fair way to go.

I am the same age as you and have lived through all the same things.
In all that time our football club has not seen fit to ban or even reduce the number of old firm supporters coming to our home and as such are complicit.
In effect they put money before morality.

. Great post sums it up perfectly for me

madhatter
14-12-2017, 06:32 PM
Hearts?

As much as it saddens me to say so - Rangers were worse than Hearts. Hearts were probably 2nd on the Worse Performances list though. They were also very poor. Just shows how important it is to take our chances, we had more against Rangers than against Hearts yet we lose.

Apart from 5min spell, Rangers could barely pass the ball to each other.

Hibernia&Alba
14-12-2017, 06:39 PM
Self policing doesn't work; pleas from the clubs to supporters haven't worked. We need strict liability in the domestic game. When sectarian behaviour hits the Old Firm in their pockets and costs them points, it will stop sharpish. The carrot has failed; we need the stick. The football authorities are guilty of moral cowardice on this issue, and perhaps it is time for individual clubs to ban their away fans, even if there's a financial hit. 2017 and we still have to endure their nonsense.

Pretty Boy
14-12-2017, 06:39 PM
Anti Catholic sectarianism is routinely ignored in wider society in Scotland so why would football be any different?

Have a march that criticises Islam and the counter protesters are out in their hundreds and the politicians spout their faux outrage. Have an annual celebration of religious superiority complete with bigotry and sectarianism every July and neither of the above are anywhere to be seen. It's our culture and about freedom of expression don't you know.

Lago
14-12-2017, 07:13 PM
so this might end up triggering another 10 pages on this...but here goes - honestly, I do not care what they chant - they are words of bigotry and hate - it reflects on them and no-one else. it affects their image across Scotland and beyond - they can bang on for me - does nothing good for them.

What a sensible altitude and spot on. I've been watching Scottish football for 60+ years and they have never and will never change.

pacorosssco
14-12-2017, 07:23 PM
Until any journalist dares to acknowledge it, nothing will change.

spiers did and lost job as result.

Leith Green
14-12-2017, 07:55 PM
If the non old firm clubs had any sort of moral fibre then they would come out and ban the old firm fans from attending matches in their stadiums. The fact they dont is purely down to greed , as they dont want to lose the income that they generate. If it was say motherwells fans who sang hateful songs at easter road en masse time and time again then the club would ban their fans from the stadium. The fact they allow the old firm to do this speaks volumes, the non old firm clubs should be doing more to highlight the problem and take the necessary action to stop it happening in their stadiums.

EastCalderHibby
14-12-2017, 08:44 PM
The last part of your post is bang on.

Everything seems to be focused on beating racism at the moment but in Scotland, sectarianism is a far worse problem in football than racism.

so its fine to call us Fenian bassas but dont call us black bassas ...sfa are a joke

Hibernia&Alba
14-12-2017, 08:50 PM
so its fine to call us Fenian bassas but dont call us black bassas ...sfa are a joke

The irony being that many of the leading men in the Fenian movement were Protestant. They probably aren't even aware of this.

madhatter
14-12-2017, 09:46 PM
so this might end up triggering another 10 pages on this...but here goes - honestly, I do not care what they chant - they are words of bigotry and hate - it reflects on them and no-one else. it affects their image across Scotland and beyond - they can bang on for me - does nothing good for them.

Their image outside Scotland is protected - media don’t cover the bigotry much and tv companies turn down the mics when the sectarian chants are in full blast. The rest of the clubs in Scotland are complicit in this.
I think outside Scotland many people may have watched that match thinking “those Rangers fans make quite an atmosphere”. Similar for Celtic fans, someone not understanding the language and the culture is unlikely to have a negative outlook on either club. Bayern Munich fans could be singing a song that is banned but when I watch the Bundesliga I don’t know so why should my view of Bayern fans be tainted? For me their football is the image, not anything to do with German culture or anything internal to their league.

Personally not caring what they sing and chant leads to ignorance, collective ignorance leads to unjust freedom, providing unjust freedom to undereducated knuckle draggers leads to incidents much worse than chants. It’s like walking past an incident on the street where someone is being abused and turning a blind eye because it is just verbal. Imagine seeing on the news later that evening that the verbal abuse had escalated into physical violence. Maybe, just maybe, if you had stepped in at the verbal stage the physical violence may have been avoided?

No idea how ignoring a problem like this (long running issue in Scotland) and hoping their behaviour someone causes an implosion at both these clubs is a good idea. Without action I can guarantee it will never end.

bigwheel
14-12-2017, 09:59 PM
Personally not caring what they sing and chant leads to ignorance, collective ignorance leads to unjust freedom, providing unjust freedom to undereducated knuckle draggers leads to incidents much worse than chants. It’s like walking past an incident on the street where someone is being abused and turning a blind eye because it is just verbal. Imagine seeing on the news later that evening that the verbal abuse had escalated into physical violence. Maybe, just maybe, if you had stepped in at the verbal stage the physical violence may have been avoided?
.

sorry for the Battle of the Boyne mate....it just started as a sing song......

madhatter
15-12-2017, 10:37 AM
sorry for the Battle of the Boyne mate....it just started as a sing song......

Didn't realise you were that old mate. You must have been places and done things!

Anyway, this has reached the stage of flogging a dead horse. Clearly it isn't going to change as there is no collective will for it.

sauzee_4
15-12-2017, 03:03 PM
Is it really that hard (and morally unacceptable) for the clubs to say 'ok, if any fans are deemed to have sang a racist/sectarian song' or if anyone has encroached on the playing area, or if anyone has thrown a flair. Your team is deducted 3 points (Christ, I'd even accept a one or two point deduction).

Have the criteria for a points deduction clearly set out and agreed by the clubs beforehand, and this problem will almost certainly become less of an issue.

Yes there will be arguments over what is acceptable and what isnt acceptable, but I'd rather that than listen to 3,000 fans chanting about 'fenian bassas' which (having catholic friends and family) is very uncomfortable

Nakedmanoncrack
15-12-2017, 03:16 PM
Who would decide what songs are to be banned? Most of the songs sung the other night are unlikely to ever find their way onto a banned list, I might not like them because I'm not a British nationalist/royalist/unionist/loyalist etc but there's no case for banning the likes of 'the Sash' (it's lyrics are hardly shocking anyway) unless you then start banning lots of other stuff that celebrates a particular identity; not only the Unionist identity, but any other. I don't want to live in a country where we ban things we don't like. The reality is that most of us haven't a clue what they are singing most of the time and dismiss everything as 'sectarianism'. Anyway, its a much over used term, people go on about Scotland's problem with 'sectarianism', without identifying the underlying issue - the anti Irish-Catholic racism which has been part of our society since the Irish mass immigration to Scotland, things have improved massively in terms of the outright discrimination etc, but the sentiment is still there and part of the Sevco identity. This is routinely (deliberately sometimes) ignored and we are told it's about two sides of same coin, centures old religious hatred etc, which simply isn't true.

sauzee_4
15-12-2017, 03:27 PM
Who would decide what songs are to be banned? Most of the songs sung the other night are unlikely to ever find their way onto a banned list, I might not like them because I'm not a British nationalist/royalist/unionist/loyalist etc but there's no case for banning the likes of 'the Sash' (it's lyrics are hardly shocking anyway) unless you then start banning lots of other stuff that celebrates a particular identity; not only the Unionist identity, but any other. I don't want to live in a country where we ban things we don't like. The reality is that most of us haven't a clue what they are singing most of the time and dismiss everything as 'sectarianism'. Anyway, its a much over used term, people go on about Scotland's problem with 'sectarianism', without identifying the underlying issue - the anti Irish-Catholic racism which has been part of our society since the Irish mass immigration to Scotland, things have improved massively in terms of the outright discrimination etc, but the sentiment is still there and part of the Sevco identity. This is routinely (deliberately sometimes) ignored and we are told it's about two sides of same coin, centures old religious hatred etc, which simply isn't true.

'We're up to our knees in fenian blood' - banned.

Difference between 'banning things you don't like' and tackling racism.

I wouldn't be allowed to sing 'we're up to our knees in Muslim blood' and quite right.

Nakedmanoncrack
15-12-2017, 03:50 PM
'We're up to our knees in fenian blood' - banned.

Difference between 'banning things you don't like' and tackling racism.

I wouldn't be allowed to sing 'we're up to our knees in Muslim blood' and quite right.

That one song is banned based on an interpretation of that line, however it can still be sung if that line is changed/not sung, it makes it impossible to enforce on thousands of people singing it. Most of the repertoir is not banned and isn't ever going to be.

Michael
15-12-2017, 05:36 PM
Is it really that hard (and morally unacceptable) for the clubs to say 'ok, if any fans are deemed to have sang a racist/sectarian song' or if anyone has encroached on the playing area, or if anyone has thrown a flair. Your team is deducted 3 points (Christ, I'd even accept a one or two point deduction).

Have the criteria for a points deduction clearly set out and agreed by the clubs beforehand, and this problem will almost certainly become less of an issue.

Yes there will be arguments over what is acceptable and what isnt acceptable, but I'd rather that than listen to 3,000 fans chanting about 'fenian bassas' which (having catholic friends and family) is very uncomfortable

Difficulty is that if I want Hearts to lose 3 points I just have to turn up to Tynecastle and do something stupid.

sauzee_4
15-12-2017, 06:03 PM
That one song is banned based on an interpretation of that line, however it can still be sung if that line is changed/not sung, it makes it impossible to enforce on thousands of people singing it. Most of the repertoir is not banned and isn't ever going to be.

So if we prevented that line being sung are you arguing that this would not represent progress? The Rangers fans could change the words of that line and it would be a less offensive song (still nothing to do with football like) so that in my eyes would represent progress.

And it is enforceable. You have an official in the stand who can note down if there's been any sectarian chanting. Rangers fans get hame after the game and find out they've been docked points. They'll think again next time.

sauzee_4
15-12-2017, 06:05 PM
Difficulty is that if I want Hearts to lose 3 points I just have to turn up to Tynecastle and do something stupid.

That's true im stumped on that one haha

Nakedmanoncrack
15-12-2017, 07:13 PM
So if we prevented that line being sung are you arguing that this would not represent progress? The Rangers fans could change the words of that line and it would be a less offensive song (still nothing to do with football like) so that in my eyes would represent progress.

And it is enforceable. You have an official in the stand who can note down if there's been any sectarian chanting. Rangers fans get hame after the game and find out they've been docked points. They'll think again next time.

I've no idea if any particular individual was singing that line on Wed, and neither has any police officer. If you really want some official sitting in the stand (would need to be same stand) noting down what he thinks people are singing, then we can amend the league table, bash on. Worth remembering that when our supporters were singing a racist ditty about refugees, there was loads of support for it on here.

Hibs Class
15-12-2017, 09:13 PM
On Wednesday, as well as listening to the offensive stuff coming from the away end, we had to endure the bigot who sits across the stairs from us shouting about proddy *******s, Tory ****, black *******s and dago ****s. I'm all for taking on misbehaving away supporters but the element of our home support who behaves like that is equally disgusting.

CMurdoch
16-12-2017, 01:59 AM
On Wednesday, as well as listening to the offensive stuff coming from the away end, we had to endure the bigot who sits across the stairs from us shouting about proddy *******s, Tory ****, black *******s and dago ****s. I'm all for taking on misbehaving away supporters but the element of our home support who behaves like that is equally disgusting.

Numpty's don't do irony.
I would normally say I hope you challenged him but in this case you would have faced a frothing at the mouth tide of whataboutary.
We should all be looking to weed out these ****ers or make them wind their necks in.
If they are a season ticket holder you should at least be informing the club.

SouthMoroccoStu
16-12-2017, 11:42 AM
It's the clubs that have rejected it. The SPFL is the clubs.
Really?

I didn’t know that!

Would love to know who vote what way and what the vote split was!