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CL0762
29-11-2017, 07:36 AM
Scott is joined by*Mark Smith*and Sam Meechan to discuss*the weekend's action. They are also joined by former Hibs and current Luton Town striker James Collins to talk about his time at Easter Road.
You can listen to the show live every Monday at 6:30pm on Radio Saltire at*www.radiosaltire.org
A full archive of all past shows and interviews can be found at*http://mondaynightfitba.podbean.com/
Tweet the show @MNFitba or email*fitba@radiosaltire.org

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/monday-night-fitba/id930261805?mt=2#episodeGuid=mondaynightfitba.podb ean.com%2Fmnf-james-collins-hearts-0-0-ross-county-hamilton-1-1-hibs-24b00f90dd1700f333f1ee8f1a4eedd1

Smartie
29-11-2017, 07:45 AM
Ooft.

Not my favourite player to play for Hibs, not by a long stretch, but he played for Hibs at a very difficult and interesting time.

If he is open and lifts the lid on a lot of what happened this could be very interesting indeed.

Collins is a player who has done well and scored goals elsewhere, and the question can legitimately be asked whether or not he'd have done better in the stronger, more creative teams that followed on from the one he played in. The side that Collins played in must have been the most difficult one for any Hibs striker to play in, as the squad that Fenlon put together that year was by a long way the least creative Hibs side I've ever seen, and hope I'm ever likely to see.

Collins really was pretty pish for us, but it will be interesting to hear his side of the story.

Northernhibee
29-11-2017, 10:13 AM
I have no issue with him and think if he had not been here in the Butcher era he'd have done well. Could be interesting.

Centre Hawf
29-11-2017, 10:52 AM
I didnt rate him as an individual and his behaviour after leaving us at other clubs hasn't done anything to change my opinion. As a footballer though I think he most definitely had "something" what it was I'm not so sure but I do think the guy would have banged them in in the Championship under Stubbs cause of his physical presence which we sometimes lacked. But who knows.

1875STEVE
29-11-2017, 11:02 AM
If there was ever a player to prove English football is overated it's him, paid decent money for him, he scored goals down there before and after he left, in league's that are claimed to be on a par, or better than the SPL.

Also, his actions at the racing.

Il never forget when he had a tap-in to win the derby and booted the keeper in the balls instead..... :rolleyes:

GreenNWhiteArmy
29-11-2017, 11:03 AM
Ooft.

Not my favourite player to play for Hibs, not by a long stretch, but he played for Hibs at a very difficult and interesting time.

If he is open and lifts the lid on a lot of what happened this could be very interesting indeed.

Collins is a player who has done well and scored goals elsewhere, and the question can legitimately be asked whether or not he'd have done better in the stronger, more creative teams that followed on from the one he played in. The side that Collins played in must have been the most difficult one for any Hibs striker to play in, as the squad that Fenlon put together that year was by a long way the least creative Hibs side I've ever seen, and hope I'm ever likely to see.

Collins really was pretty pish for us, but it will be interesting to hear his side of the story.

I'd agree with this.

He did miss some absolute shockers though that gives people the ammunition for saying he was a donkey.

Certainly wasn't in the top 5 maybe 10 worst strikers we've had since I've been going from around 1993 imo

My_Wife_Camille
29-11-2017, 11:21 AM
Collins is an abysmal footballer and a bellend of a man.

essexhibee
29-11-2017, 11:37 AM
Living proof that people saying english lower leagues are far greater than the SPL is complete tosh.

And I can also confirm this having seen numerous league 1 games this season for Southend.

Pete
29-11-2017, 11:41 AM
I have no issue with him and think if he had not been here in the Butcher era he'd have done well. Could be interesting.

Agree, definitely not one of the worst no matter how you look at it. Good derby goal too.

Never realised he was a baldy through choice.

CallumLaidlaw
29-11-2017, 12:05 PM
Simon Murray has matched Collins' 6 league goals in just 15 games (13 starts), compared to Collins' 36 games (27 starts). Stokes is 1 short in 11 games (9 starts). Boyle is 2 behind after 12 games (12 starts)

JimboHibs
29-11-2017, 12:36 PM
I didnt rate him as an individual and his behaviour after leaving us at other clubs hasn't done anything to change my opinion. As a footballer though I think he most definitely had "something" what it was I'm not so sure but I do think the guy would have banged them in in the Championship under Stubbs cause of his physical presence which we sometimes lacked. But who knows.

What had he done previously as an individual that made you not rate him ?

WeeRussell
29-11-2017, 12:42 PM
I didnt rate him as an individual and his behaviour after leaving us at other clubs hasn't done anything to change my opinion. As a footballer though I think he most definitely had "something" what it was I'm not so sure but I do think the guy would have banged them in in the Championship under Stubbs cause of his physical presence which we sometimes lacked. But who knows.

I'm kind of the opposite in that I didn't realise he was a bit of a t0sser until after he was at us, but never thought he looked like a footballer the whole time he was with us. (admittedly, as noted above, he seems to very much do the business elsewhere).

I actually thought that's why some persisted in blaming everyone but himself for his performances, because he appeared to be an honest worker and decent guy.

Craig_HFC
29-11-2017, 01:27 PM
Collins was utter pish. Anyone saying he might have done well in a different Hibs side clearly don’t know a a huddy when they see one.

Just another in a long line of absolute journeymen nobodies who were signed in the years leading up to relegation.

Thankfully those types of signings seem to be a thing of the past and there is some thought behind the recruitment now.

Swedish hibee
29-11-2017, 01:30 PM
He was utter garbage.

Firestarter
29-11-2017, 01:32 PM
How the hell did he miss that chance in the derby we won 2-1? Had us minus 1. Raging he hit it wide.

blackpoolhibs
29-11-2017, 01:34 PM
A poor player who actually cost us a decent fee too. :rolleyes:

Which other teams we've had over the years would he have got a starting place in, not that many imo, and all would be poor teams.

He can piss quite well into a pint pot though, classy guy.

iwasthere1972
29-11-2017, 01:37 PM
Did less in the box in 40 days than David Blayne.

Useless. I could have scored more.

Smartie
29-11-2017, 04:03 PM
Simon Murray has matched Collins' 6 league goals in just 15 games (13 starts), compared to Collins' 36 games (27 starts). Stokes is 1 short in 11 games (9 starts). Boyle is 2 behind after 12 games (12 starts)

How many goals do you think Murray or Stokes would have if they'd been partnered with Rowan Vine up front, or if he wasn't around Danny Handling, Ross Caldwell or Paul Heffernan?

Fenlon had Alex Harris and Paul Cairnie to play wide and create, both of whom were injured for many months at the start of that season.

He was forced to shoehorn Liam Craig into an entirely unsuitable position in an attempt to create.

We had about 45 holding midfielders, none of whom could create.

This generally led to Collins running around all over the place like a headless chicken, the ball bouncing off him everywhere.

He missed some big chances but no more than most of our strikers and he managed to take a few of the ones that came his way.

Collins was pish but it couldn't have been easy to play in that team.

jacomo
29-11-2017, 05:02 PM
A poor player who actually cost us a decent fee too. :rolleyes:

Which other teams we've had over the years would he have got a starting place in, not that many imo, and all would be poor teams.

He can piss quite well into a pint pot though, classy guy.


Didn't we get a fee for him when he left too? Or am I imagining that?

Agree though, he was poor.

Billy Whizz
29-11-2017, 05:03 PM
Didn't we get a fee for him when he left too? Or am I imagining that?

Agree though, he was poor.

150k

lyonhibs
29-11-2017, 05:04 PM
Absolute dug***** in a dug***** team.

KWJ
29-11-2017, 05:12 PM
Dunno any of the stuff about him as a bloke but I mind being excited at the signing - £200k?

Looked like he gave his all for us but just nothing went his way. One of them things. State of the team didnt help.

Hibernia&Alba
29-11-2017, 05:16 PM
Awful team and a very poor signing. He was rank; we're talking Rowan Vine levels of rank.

SChibs
29-11-2017, 05:18 PM
Plenty people saying he's cheap but if in January we were linking at a player from league 1/2 that's been top scorer for the different sides he's played for down there we wouldn't be grumbling too much.

He might not have played well for us but there's clearly a footballer there if he's scoring goals elsewhere imo

Sir David Gray
29-11-2017, 05:26 PM
We would have been better signing Joan Collins.

jacomo
29-11-2017, 05:51 PM
150k


Well that's something.

ballengeich
29-11-2017, 06:03 PM
There's a history in football of strikers who're prolific up to a certain level but can't cope when they come up against a higher standard of defender. Collins is in that category. He's been promoted three times from English league 2, but always ends up back there.

Other examples of the type are Kris Boyd who Rangers tended to drop when against Celtic or in Europe, or Jordan Rhodes who's been successful in the English Championship but bombed when he finally got a premier opportunity with Middlesborough.

Firestarter
29-11-2017, 06:05 PM
Forgot about Paul Heffernan. Mince times.

21.05.2016
29-11-2017, 06:08 PM
Has there ever been a player with more "if, buts and maybes"? Heard so many times "oh if he had more service he'd have been better, if he played in a better team he'd have been good, if he played under a better manager he'd have been better etc etc".


He was pish. Can't get my head round why so many excuses are made for him yet others who fail get totally slated.

Dashing Bob S
29-11-2017, 06:11 PM
Rated him highly. One that got away.

Hibernia&Alba
29-11-2017, 06:12 PM
Has there ever been a player with more "if, buts and maybes"? Heard so many times "oh if he had more service he'd have been better, if he played in a better team he'd have been good, if he played under a better manager he'd have been better etc etc".


He was pish. Can't get my head round why so many excuses are made for him yet others who fail get totally slated.

I've seen cruise liners turn quicker. Bad times.

jacomo
29-11-2017, 06:16 PM
Forgot about Paul Heffernan. Mince times.


I always quite liked him. Just think he was a bit past it by the time he signed for us.

Thecat23
29-11-2017, 06:18 PM
I actually shudder when I think of the times watching Fenlons teams. Loan players who were brutal last min jan or summer dross. Collins would score goals in this side I’ve no doubt about that. His attitude wasn’t the best though that’s for sure.

wookie70
29-11-2017, 06:22 PM
The only striker I have ever seen that made his most dynamic runs from the edge of the box back to the half way line. He looked scared to score most of the time.

MWHIBBIES
29-11-2017, 06:30 PM
Wasn't that team 5th before Fenlon was hounded out :greengrin

WoreTheGreen
29-11-2017, 06:31 PM
I've seen cruise liners turn quicker. Bad times.

And milk

Thecat23
29-11-2017, 07:09 PM
Wasn't that team 5th before Fenlon was hounded out :greengrin

35% win rate from 87 games! On top of that some of the worst football I’ve seen watching Hibs, chuck in the 0-7 as well. Actually need to change the subject thank god we managed to completely turn our club around in bring in guys like Stubbs and Lennon.

Sammy7nil
29-11-2017, 07:13 PM
How many goals do you think Murray or Stokes would have if they'd been partnered with Rowan Vine up front, or if he wasn't around Danny Handling, Ross Caldwell or Paul Heffernan?

Fenlon had Alex Harris and Paul Cairnie to play wide and create, both of whom were injured for many months at the start of that season.

He was forced to shoehorn Liam Craig into an entirely unsuitable position in an attempt to create.

We had about 45 holding midfielders, none of whom could create.

This generally led to Collins running around all over the place like a headless chicken, the ball bouncing off him everywhere.

He missed some big chances but no more than most of our strikers and he managed to take a few of the ones that came his way.

Collins was pish but it couldn't have been easy to play in that team.

Far too sensible it will never catch on.

WeeRussell
29-11-2017, 07:28 PM
Has there ever been a player with more "if, buts and maybes"? Heard so many times "oh if he had more service he'd have been better, if he played in a better team he'd have been good, if he played under a better manager he'd have been better etc etc".


He was pish. Can't get my head round why so many excuses are made for him yet others who fail get totally slated.


Yep.

Edit - as in I agree with you. Not “yes there has been a player with more excuses” :)

keep the faith
29-11-2017, 07:42 PM
35% win rate from 87 games! On top of that some of the worst football I’ve seen watching Hibs, chuck in the 0-7 as well. Actually need to change the subject thank god we managed to completely turn our club around in bring in guys like Stubbs and Lennon.

Yep. Butcher rightly gets the headlines for car crash manager of the century but I can honestly say that no hibs manager had me looking at the stadium clock during match days more than fenlon. Terrible signings, a hundred holding midfielders, Mcgivern, Vine, the cup final, Lewis at right back. Low times.

Thecat23
29-11-2017, 07:45 PM
Yep. Butcher rightly gets the headlines for car crash manager of the century but I can honestly say that no hibs manager had me looking at the stadium clock during match days more than fenlon. Terrible signings, a hundred holding midfielders, Mcgivern, Vine, the cup final, Lewis at right back. Low times.

Really is a completely different club now thankfully. As you mention guys like Vine etc and what was it with all those holding midfielders? I never knew a manager that signed so many!

MWHIBBIES
29-11-2017, 07:46 PM
35% win rate from 87 games! On top of that some of the worst football I’ve seen watching Hibs, chuck in the 0-7 as well. Actually need to change the subject thank god we managed to completely turn our club around in bring in guys like Stubbs and Lennon.Weren't we still 5th though? No danger we go down if he sees out his contract. We could've been 3rd in the top league 3 years ago instead of 3 years down.

Fenlon wasn't the villain.

snedzuk
29-11-2017, 07:50 PM
Controlled the ball further than most players kick it.

jane_says
29-11-2017, 08:12 PM
He was utter garbage.

This sums it up perfectly. Folk saying about service, better players around him - he consistently miscontrolled the ball, missed sitters, was bullied off the ball, and never won a header.
Will always remember when he was put clear at Tynecastle with a 5-10 yard head start on the half way line and not only did the centre half get to the ball frst, Collins was so far behind him he wasn't even able to make a challenge.

In summary, an absolute huddy.

Smartie
29-11-2017, 08:13 PM
Weren't we still 5th though? No danger we go down if he sees out his contract. We could've been 3rd in the top league 3 years ago instead of 3 years down.

Fenlon wasn't the villain.

We've been through this before and we differ in our opinions re Fenlon.

He inherited an absolute shambles and actually did magnificently to achieve what he did for a year and a half with loan signings etc.

He could drill a defence and put a team out that wouldn't lose many goals, that is for sure.

But Fenlon must take some responsibility for the mess we found ourselves in and the reason for that is the level of attacking threat he put together once Griffiths, Doyle, Wotherspoon and Claros left. Fenlon put the squad together that Butcher then took down and it has taken a few years to appreciate how awful that team was going forward. Yes, Fenlon got a decent shift out of the likes of Maybury, McGivern, the much-maligned Nelson and others and would in all possibility have bored us to safety. But that was an awful attacking threat he had in that team, we couldn't score goals and imo that's why we ultimately went down.

Fenlon's last summer was a disaster.

I quite like Fenlon and don't really blame him. What he inherited was infinitely worse than I think any of us realise, and his overachievement for so long with scant resource raised our expectations a bit. But i honestly think the disastrous failure to address the goalscoring department that summer was as much a reason for our relegation as Butcher's, ahem, "man management" style.

iwasthere1972
29-11-2017, 08:16 PM
Rated him highly. One that got away.

You're daft as a brush Bob. :agree:

KSA Hibee
29-11-2017, 10:20 PM
He ... and the other Muppet Vine .. were examples of why I fell out of love with my beloved Hibs ... should never have been anywhere near a Hibs strip in his puff !!!

guthrie01
29-11-2017, 10:25 PM
He ... and the other Muppet Vine .. were examples of why I fell out of love with my beloved Hibs ... should never have been anywhere near a Hibs strip in his puff !!!

Vine was one of the most passionless, useless Hibs players I've seen. At least Collins scored a few goals and put an effort into most games.

Thecat23
29-11-2017, 10:29 PM
Weren't we still 5th though? No danger we go down if he sees out his contract. We could've been 3rd in the top league 3 years ago instead of 3 years down.

Fenlon wasn't the villain.

Again his win rate was really poor. 5th and dropping like a stone! We prob wouldn’t have gone down but he was part of the problem Butcher just whacked the final nail in the coffin. Calderwood/Fenlon/Butcher all managers who looking back shouldn’t be near Hibs. I actually thought both Fenlon and Butcher would be good appointments can’t believe I was so wrong.

bigwheel
29-11-2017, 10:35 PM
Again his win rate was really poor. 5th and dropping like a stone! We prob wouldn’t have gone down but he was part of the problem Butcher just whacked the final nail in the coffin. Calderwood/Fenlon/Butcher all managers who looking back shouldn’t be near Hibs. I actually thought both Fenlon and Butcher would be good appointments can’t believe I was so wrong.


There were no similarities between Fenlon's points return and Butcher's that season...Fenlon was sitting about 1.4 points per game that season...Butcher ended about 0.6 points per game (i'm estimating from memory but it really was on a completely different level...)

Thecat23
29-11-2017, 10:38 PM
There were no similarities between Fenlon's points return and Butcher's that season...Fenlon was sitting about 1.4 points per game that season...Butcher ended about 0.6 points per game (i'm estimating from memory but it really was on a completely different level...)

I’m not arguing that fact, Butcher was simply brutal. Football under Fenlon though was the worst to watch. It would sedate you.

MWHIBBIES
29-11-2017, 10:41 PM
Again his win rate was really poor. 5th and dropping like a stone! We prob wouldn’t have gone down but he was part of the problem Butcher just whacked the final nail in the coffin. Calderwood/Fenlon/Butcher all managers who looking back shouldn’t be near Hibs. I actually thought both Fenlon and Butcher would be good appointments can’t believe I was so wrong.Mental to put Fenlon with Calderwood and Butcher. Those guys really hardly won a game, Fenlon has us in 2 cup finals and 5th when he left.

Not sure how he can be 5th and dropping like a stone. He was 5th, we dropped like a stone when we hounded him out.

Massive reason I think fan ownership would be a bad idea. Too much passion, no logic. He wasn't the answer but all we had to do was suck it up for 6 months and he was away. Instead we got relegated.

.Sean.
29-11-2017, 10:58 PM
Is the show not done in Tranent, wonder what brings him up here as he seems like he'd be too baw heeded to come up from Luton to do a local radio show.

He was murder in a murder team and more interested in George Street. Well rid.

LaMotta
29-11-2017, 10:59 PM
Has there ever been a player with more "if, buts and maybes"? Heard so many times "oh if he had more service he'd have been better, if he played in a better team he'd have been good, if he played under a better manager he'd have been better etc etc".


He was pish. Can't get my head round why so many excuses are made for him yet others who fail get totally slated.

The reason the excuses are trotted out is that people that defended him early on and claimed he was a good player are still unwilling to admit they were so spectacularly wrong about him.

The guy had nothing at this level apart from work rate. Pace? Composure? Finishing? Flair? Touch? Technique? Hold up play? Creativity? nope.

Guys like Collins, Vine, and Matt Done , who have flourished in the Lower leagues down south and looked out their depth with Hibs point to the lower English leagues being pretty gash.

CallumLaidlaw
29-11-2017, 11:05 PM
Is the show not done in Tranent, wonder what brings him up here as he seems like he'd be too baw heeded to come up from Luton to do a local radio show.

He was murder in a murder team and more interested in George Street. Well rid.

Phone interview.
Came across rather well too.
Wasn’t great for us but always gave 100%. Which is more than can be said for a fair few around that time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Firestarter
29-11-2017, 11:09 PM
I always quite liked him. Just think he was a bit past it by the time he signed for us.

Which made it worse. He was decent for Killie.

Thecat23
29-11-2017, 11:21 PM
Mental to put Fenlon with Calderwood and Butcher. Those guys really hardly won a game, Fenlon has us in 2 cup finals and 5th when he left.

Not sure how he can be 5th and dropping like a stone. He was 5th, we dropped like a stone when we hounded him out.

Massive reason I think fan ownership would be a bad idea. Too much passion, no logic. He wasn't the answer but all we had to do was suck it up for 6 months and he was away. Instead we got relegated.

Have to agree to disagree, his football was eye bleeding stuff crowds tell its own story under him. I agree with you about fan ownership never been a fan of it and think it’s a bad idea!

tamig
29-11-2017, 11:34 PM
Some way OTT comments on here about James Collins. My view of him is he always gave 100% in a poor side and scored a few goals in a low scoring defensively minded team lacking in creativity. Miles away from being anywhere near the worst strikers ever to play for Hibs. He would have scored plenty with better players around him.

ian cruise
29-11-2017, 11:40 PM
Is the show not done in Tranent, wonder what brings him up here as he seems like he'd be too baw heeded to come up from Luton to do a local radio show.

He was murder in a murder team and more interested in George Street. Well rid.

Ready to be corrected here but though Collins was out quite a lot I thought he was teetotal and was always on the soft drinks? I just seem to remember that being the chat around the time.

SteveHFC
30-11-2017, 12:10 AM
35% win rate from 87 games! On top of that some of the worst football I’ve seen watching Hibs, chuck in the 0-7 as well. Actually need to change the subject thank god we managed to completely turn our club around in bring in guys like Stubbs and Lennon.

Fenlon should have been sacked after the 5-1 game.

silverhibee
30-11-2017, 12:29 AM
Fenlon should have been sacked after the 5-1 game.

He should have definitely been sacked after the Malmo game.

MWHIBBIES
30-11-2017, 12:43 AM
Fenlon should have been sacked after the 5-1 game.
Manager should be sacked for losing to cheats in a cup final? Fenlon was the only one who showed some passion that day, no way he shouldve been sacked and rightfully wasnt.

Firestarter
30-11-2017, 09:22 AM
Manager should be sacked for losing to cheats in a cup final? Fenlon was the only one who showed some passion that day, no way he shouldve been sacked and rightfully wasnt.

You get humped off your rivals in a national final you should be sacked, yes. His team, his fault.

Michael
30-11-2017, 09:33 AM
You get humped off your rivals in a national final you should be sacked, yes. His team, his fault.

If Fenlon was spending twice what hearts were I'm sure he'd have beaten them comfortably too.

Fenlons's first season was about damage limitation from the mess Calderwood left.

Tom Hart RIP
30-11-2017, 09:38 AM
Fyfe Highland and Scott Lindsay chose Pat Fenton over Michael O'Neil.

Danderhall Hibs
30-11-2017, 09:48 AM
Spoke fairly well of his time at Hibs I thought. Says his goal in the new year derby will live with him forever and is in his top 5 goals of his career.

TRC
30-11-2017, 09:53 AM
Fyfe Highland and Scott Lindsay chose Pat Fenton over Michael O'Neil.

Was it not Craig Leven that scuppered O'Neil getting the job at the time, sure that was the chat

MWHIBBIES
30-11-2017, 10:24 AM
You get humped off your rivals in a national final you should be sacked, yes. His team, his fault.

Really? So managers should be judged on 1 game? Losing to Ross County in a final is worse than losing to a cheating Hearts team imo should Stubbs have been sacked? Look at the debt Hearts were in, we were bloody 11th, its a miracle we got 1.

It wasnt Fenlons team, it was Calderwoods mess with some bandages applied by Fenlon.

Treadstone
30-11-2017, 10:59 AM
Really? So managers should be judged on 1 game? Losing to Ross County in a final is worse than losing to a cheating Hearts team imo should Stubbs have been sacked? Look at the debt Hearts were in, we were bloody 11th, its a miracle we got 1.

It wasnt Fenlons team, it was Calderwoods mess with some bandages applied by Fenlon.

Diamond formation against two wide men (everyone knew pretty much how they would play) was entirely Fenlons call. A manager out of his depth.

Thecat23
30-11-2017, 11:34 AM
Diamond formation against two wide men (everyone knew pretty much how they would play) was entirely Fenlons call. A manager out of his depth.

He left Kujabi exposed big time that day. He was a poor player but was offered no cover. Everyone could see what what happening bar Fenlon.

Thecat23
30-11-2017, 11:36 AM
Really? So managers should be judged on 1 game? Losing to Ross County in a final is worse than losing to a cheating Hearts team imo should Stubbs have been sacked? Look at the debt Hearts were in, we were bloody 11th, its a miracle we got 1.

It wasnt Fenlons team, it was Calderwoods mess with some bandages applied by Fenlon.

Come on, you can’t say it wasn’t Fenlons team. He was manager he set out the tactics. Hibs players all arguing the night before the cup final of bonuses was a disgrace and Fenlon should never have let it get that far. Hearts were cheating yeah but Fenlons tactics that day were embarrassing.

silverhibee
30-11-2017, 11:43 AM
Fyfe Highland and Scott Lindsay chose Pat Fenton over Michael O'Neil.

Not true.

Hiber-nation
30-11-2017, 11:50 AM
Really? So managers should be judged on 1 game? Losing to Ross County in a final is worse than losing to a cheating Hearts team imo should Stubbs have been sacked? Look at the debt Hearts were in, we were bloody 11th, its a miracle we got 1.

It wasnt Fenlons team, it was Calderwoods mess with some bandages applied by Fenlon.

Sorry but hearts were a very average team and no-one expected that score. They finished 5th in the league, 10 points behind Motherwell and 7 off Dundee Utd. Yes we were pish but that scoreline should never have happened and the blame lies squarely with Fenlon and of course Mr Billy Brown.

we are hibs
30-11-2017, 11:51 AM
Stunning how Fenlon wasn't as bad as the manager he replaced or the one who succeeded him.

Firestarter
30-11-2017, 11:52 AM
Really? So managers should be judged on 1 game? Losing to Ross County in a final is worse than losing to a cheating Hearts team imo should Stubbs have been sacked? Look at the debt Hearts were in, we were bloody 11th, its a miracle we got 1.

It wasnt Fenlons team, it was Calderwoods mess with some bandages applied by Fenlon.

Lets not make out that Hearts team was anything special. They where *****. My opinion is he should have been sacked. Losing in that manner to your rivals in a cup final isn't acceptable regardless of the financial playing field.

supermcginn
30-11-2017, 11:57 AM
Sorry but hearts were a very average team and no-one expected that score. They finished 5th in the league, 10 points behind Motherwell and 7 off Dundee Utd. Yes we were pish but that scoreline should never have happened and the blame lies squarely with Fenlon and of course Mr Billy Brown.
Billy Brown begged fenlon not to play the diamond but he didn't listen. Fenlon was a joke and miles and miles out his depth.

Firestarter
30-11-2017, 12:17 PM
If Fenlon was spending twice what hearts were I'm sure he'd have beaten them comfortably too.

Fenlons's first season was about damage limitation from the mess Calderwood left.

That's just guessing. All of it.

Michael
30-11-2017, 12:29 PM
That's just guessing. All of it.

Google it. Their wage budget for that season is public.

CropleyWasGod
30-11-2017, 12:33 PM
Google it. Their wage budget for that season is public.

Where? It's not in their accounts.

NAE NOOKIE
30-11-2017, 12:39 PM
There's a history in football of strikers who're prolific up to a certain level but can't cope when they come up against a higher standard of defender. Collins is in that category. He's been promoted three times from English league 2, but always ends up back there.

Other examples of the type are Kris Boyd who Rangers tended to drop when against Celtic or in Europe, or Jordan Rhodes who's been successful in the English Championship but bombed when he finally got a premier opportunity with Middlesborough.

To be fair to Jordan Rhodes if my recollection of Middlesborough's time in the EPL is accurate they were slated time and again on TV and the radio for their ultra negative approach, especially at home, which lead to what strikers they had being limited to one or two decent chances every game, if even that. My understanding was Robert Lewandowski would have had a job reaching 10 goals that season if he had been playing up front for them.

Diclonius
30-11-2017, 12:50 PM
I'll never forget that Collins miss in the last derby of the season. It was the absolute worst I have ever seen for a Hibs player against them and it had so much riding on it too - if he'd scored that could have kept us up.

Still to this day have no idea how he missed that, and have never been angrier at one of our players than in that moment.

truehibernian
30-11-2017, 12:52 PM
The form of Leigh Griffiths saved Pat Fenlon - without his goals and assists we would have been relegated a season sooner in my opinion.

Fenlon's absolute failure to identify creative midfielders and wide players with pace was also his undoing. The football was laboured, industrial and predictable. Lovely guy, speaks highly of the club at all times which is commendable, but ranks as one of the worst managers we have had in recent times I'm afraid. Calderwood, Fenlon, and Butcher all had their part to play in the continual decline in performance and standards and this should never ever be forgotten.

The last two managerial appointments have been very positive and Stubbs in particular has to be commended for the rebuild and turnaround in supporters feelings towards the club (and the way football was played). Lennon has built on that and moved us forward by a good margin. But the best signing we have made isn't a footballer - it's Leeann Dempster :aok: she is the driving force behind where we are right now and one of the main reasons our club is in such a strong position on and off the park. The turnaround, positivity, and success we have had in the last three years is a testament to her work - and George Craig and Co.

On topic - James Collins - one of the worst strikers I've seen and to think we also got money for him was astonishing. Collins, Vine and Heffernan :rolleyes: Stokes, Murray and Boyle :greengrin that says it all.

Michael
30-11-2017, 12:53 PM
Where? It's not in their accounts.

Sorry can't link properly as I'm on mobile.

This article says their accounts showed £8m on wages https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.scotsman.com/sport/football/competitions/premiership/hearts-to-reduce-wage-bill-to-3-5m-1-2618700/amp

CallumLaidlaw
30-11-2017, 12:56 PM
Was it not Craig Leven that scuppered O'Neil getting the job at the time, sure that was the chat

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hibs/michael-o-neill-fears-drink-rumours-cost-him-hibs-job-1-3936491

CropleyWasGod
30-11-2017, 12:57 PM
Sorry can't link properly as I'm on mobile.

This article says their accounts showed £8m on wages https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.scotsman.com/sport/football/competitions/premiership/hearts-to-reduce-wage-bill-to-3-5m-1-2618700/amp

That's wages exclusive of NI. Total costs were £9.4m, for all staff.

However, over a third of staff were non-playing, and no breakdown is given of the costs. It's therefore difficult to know what their playing wages were.

Michael
30-11-2017, 01:02 PM
That's wages exclusive of NI. Total costs were £9.4m, for all staff.

However, over a third of staff were non-playing, and no breakdown is given of the costs. It's therefore difficult to know what their playing wages were.

Well yes, but we can consider it relative to what we were spending. Would have been around 4-5 million.

Firestarter
30-11-2017, 01:15 PM
Google it. Their wage budget for that season is public.

It's still guesswork in terms of horsing them with a bigger budget. We couldn't horse Hamilton in the playoffs and they would have had a fraction of our budget.

You could even argue that Fenlon not being punted then was the biggest reason we ended up relegated two years later.

Tom Hart RIP
30-11-2017, 01:28 PM
Not true.

Rod said publicly on a few occasions that FH and SL were delegated to identify our new manager and he would not be involved.
FH and SL interviewed Michael O'Neil for 5 hours but chose Pat Fenton.
FH in particular boasted that they had found a real winner when Pat first arrived.
Are you suggesting that they wanted Michael O'Neil but someone presumably Rod overruled them?

blackpoolhibs
30-11-2017, 02:23 PM
That's wages exclusive of NI. Total costs were £9.4m, for all staff.

However, over a third of staff were non-playing, and no breakdown is given of the costs. It's therefore difficult to know what their playing wages were.

What about the wages that were being indirectly paid to some players through kaunas in lithuania, who knows what that amounted to?

BSEJVT
30-11-2017, 02:24 PM
Sorry but for me Collins was absolutely brutal.

A truly awful footballer.

There isn't a single thing he could do other than lumbering about like a huge fat coo with a face that looked as though it was sweating last night's bevvy out it after 3 minutes and for the rest of the game

I hated him playing for Hibs and even now the thought of him doing so gives me the dry boak.

Undoubtedly one of my least favourite players in 50 years of watching Hibs

Definite top 5 material, as for that matter were a lot of the players around at that time such as Clancy & Kujabi

Fenlon was totally clueless, bailed out by Griffiths & O'Connor's goals in season 1 and some good experienced pro's like Thomson & McPake

Signed some absolute **** which seemed to be our speciality subject in the, post 2007 CIS cup win, wilderness years.

cleanyman
30-11-2017, 04:39 PM
Cannae believe folk are still defending Pat Fenlon.

Yes, the guy took us to two cup finals and had a decent first season but that summer he had before he left was abysmal.

Every player he signed was gash. Vine and Mullen FFS.

Yes, Butcher took us down but PF set the foundations

bigwheel
30-11-2017, 05:05 PM
Cannae believe folk are still defending Pat Fenlon.

Yes, the guy took us to two cup finals and had a decent first season but that summer he had before he left was abysmal.

Every player he signed was gash. Vine and Mullen FFS.

Yes, Butcher took us down but PF set the foundations

I was with you until the last sentence - there was nothing in Fenlons record that suggested we would have been anywhere near relegated - he has no responsibility for that - as I said earlier in this thread - his points return was around 1.4 points per game that season. Comfortably mid table performance . Butcher earned around 0.6 points per game - and it was his appalling handling of the squad which created those results ..

Fenlon was not a great manager for us, but he was a lot better than Butcher or Calderwood were - no comparison really - and the facts bear that out

snooky
30-11-2017, 05:05 PM
Cannae believe folk are still defending Pat Fenlon.

Yes, the guy took us to two cup finals and had a decent first season but that summer he had before he left was abysmal.

Every player he signed was gash. Vine and Mullen FFS.

Yes, Butcher took us down but PF set the foundations

The slide into the abyss began with Calderwood - no doubt in my mind.

Smartie
30-11-2017, 05:13 PM
I think we need to be selective about what we actually blame Fenlon for.

I hold him in no way culpable for 5-1. As far as Fenlon is concerned, the fact that he picked up the shambolic remnants of a squad left to him by Calderwood, added a few loan signings and got us to a cup final is a minor miracle. The victory over Aberdeen in the semi was a great result and it is a shame for Fenlon that the final went the way it did as he will never really be given the credit he deserves for keeping us up and getting to that final.

At the final - we were playing a financially super pumped team and a referee who made major, game-changing atrocious decisions (as many of us knew he would). Fenlon got it wrong on the day, he set us up way too open and we got ripped apart down the wings. The to55ers he inherited as players were too bothered bickering about bonuses to focus on the game, he inherited a gang of dickheads and cannot be blamed for that. His only crime - he played 2 strikers and set us up a bit too open. We lost 5-1, but tbh if they'd scraped past us with a 1-0 win in a game when we hadn't even tried to win they'd still have lorded it over us and we'd have been incensed that a Hibs manager had been so negative in such a big game.

He did brilliantly the following season, but what happened the following summer was inexcusable. Whether that was down to Fenlon, Petrie or whoever it was ridiculous how ill-prepared for the following season when we knew for a long time that we were going to lose the big players we did. We were brutal at the start of that season and were lucky to be where we were in the league. We were dropping like a stone and Fenlon knew it.

It's a lot easier to like Fenlon than it is to like Butcher but he cannot be absolved of blame for our relegation. He does though deserve praise for what he managed to achieve earlier in his reign.

Firestarter
30-11-2017, 05:15 PM
The slide into the abyss began with Calderwood - no doubt in my mind.

Yogi selling stokes and replacing him with Alan Gow was the beginning for me.

brog
30-11-2017, 05:15 PM
Fenlon played Kujabi in the cup final before 3 other players including Lewis & Francomb. Everyone knew it was an accident waiting to happen, unfortunately Yams included.
Fenlon played David Stephens in every pre season game & 1st game at Tannadice when we were horsed. Wee Pat said Stephens was to be the foundation of our defence. He got a free transfer a few days later. I liked Pat as a man but he deserved to be sacked for those decisions alone.
Re Collins, he was limited but IMO he gave 100%. I've seen far worse strikers at ER, including, off the top of my head, Harvey McCreadie ( 1 for older viewers ), Joe Ward & Ally Scott. He did score an excellent goal against Yams on a famous ER night.

blackpoolhibs
30-11-2017, 05:23 PM
Yogi selling stokes and replacing him with Alan Gow was the beginning for me.

Petrie sold Stokes.

MWHIBBIES
30-11-2017, 05:46 PM
Sorry but hearts were a very average team and no-one expected that score. They finished 5th in the league, 10 points behind Motherwell and 7 off Dundee Utd. Yes we were pish but that scoreline should never have happened and the blame lies squarely with Fenlon and of course Mr Billy Brown.We hadn't beaten Hearts in over 3 years, they had us easily that day. Average beats pish every time. Tables have turned now thankfully.


Come on, you can’t say it wasn’t Fenlons team. He was manager he set out the tactics. Hibs players all arguing the night before the cup final of bonuses was a disgrace and Fenlon should never have let it get that far. Hearts were cheating yeah but Fenlons tactics that day were embarrassing.I can quiet easily say it wasn't Fenlons team, that is what the whole forum said that night as well, he was almost unanimously backed on here after that game. Plenty revisionists changing their opinion now but everyone knew he wasn't the problem.


Diamond formation against two wide men (everyone knew pretty much how they would play) was entirely Fenlons call. A manager out of his depth.Surely that gives us 4 vs 2 in the middle? Maybe that was his thinking?

Maybe the execution was poor and not the idea.

People seem to be thinking I'm saying Fenlon is some kind of genius. No, he wasn't great for us at all but no manager should be sacked based on 1 game and hounding him out caused far more harm than good.

Firestarter
30-11-2017, 06:54 PM
Petrie sold Stokes.

Yeah that's what I meant. Towards the end of the window leaving us with sod all.

Firestarter
30-11-2017, 07:10 PM
We hadn't beaten Hearts in over 3 years, they had us easily that day. Average beats pish every time. Tables have turned now thankfully.

I can quiet easily say it wasn't Fenlons team, that is what the whole forum said that night as well, he was almost unanimously backed on here after that game. Plenty revisionists changing their opinion now but everyone knew he wasn't the problem.

Surely that gives us 4 vs 2 in the middle? Maybe that was his thinking?

Maybe the execution was poor and not the idea.

People seem to be thinking I'm saying Fenlon is some kind of genius. No, he wasn't great for us at all but no manager should be sacked based on 1 game and hounding him out caused far more harm than good.

We hadn't beaten them but they where hardly good and finished ***** in the league.

Fenlon brought in Mcpake Kubjabi Doyle Claros towell francombe soars Donovan and that **** Doherty so how can you claim it wasn't his team in the final?

Hounding him out was correct, he was a poor manager what was poor was the people who decided butcher was the best man for the job of a team full of people that didn't want to be there and butcher and mainly malpas clashing with Mcpake and KT.

silverhibee
30-11-2017, 08:00 PM
Rod said publicly on a few occasions that FH and SL were delegated to identify our new manager and he would not be involved.
FH and SL interviewed Michael O'Neil for 5 hours but chose Pat Fenton.
FH in particular boasted that they had found a real winner when Pat first arrived.
Are you suggesting that they wanted Michael O'Neil but someone presumably Rod overruled them?

Rod always gets involved, he can't help himself.

They never chose Pat Fenlon, Michael O'Neil was 1st choice.

What else could he say.

Haven't suggested anything, I know how things went down over the dealings regards the two managers, but why rake over old coals. :wink: time to move on.

Sammy7nil
30-11-2017, 08:11 PM
Yogi selling stokes and replacing him with Alan Gow was the beginning for me.

For me it started when we let Gordon Smith go :aok::greengrin

Firestarter
30-11-2017, 08:16 PM
For me it started when we let Gordon Smith go :aok::greengrin

😂

ancient hibee
30-11-2017, 11:04 PM
Fenlon played Kujabi in the cup final before 3 other players including Lewis & Francomb. Everyone knew it was an accident waiting to happen, unfortunately Yams included.
Fenlon played David Stephens in every pre season game & 1st game at Tannadice when we were horsed. Wee Pat said Stephens was to be the foundation of our defence. He got a free transfer a few days later. I liked Pat as a man but he deserved to be sacked for those decisions alone.
Re Collins, he was limited but IMO he gave 100%. I've seen far worse strikers at ER, including, off the top of my head, Harvey McCreadie ( 1 for older viewers ), Joe Ward & Ally Scott. He did score an excellent goal against Yams on a famous ER night.
I’m just catching up with this thread before I go to bed and read these dreadful words,McCreadie,Ward and Scott.How dare you,nightmares for sure now.

SChibs
01-12-2017, 12:54 PM
I don't blame fenlon at all for bringing the likes for vine, collins and Heffernan. Vine and Heffernan were top scorers for their teams the season before ( vine was joint top for st J who finished above us) and collins scored goals down south and had interest from other bigger clubs

Jones28
01-12-2017, 12:56 PM
Cannae believe folk are still defending Pat Fenlon.

Yes, the guy took us to two cup finals and had a decent first season but that summer he had before he left was abysmal.

Every player he signed was gash. Vine and Mullen FFS.

Yes, Butcher took us down but PF set the foundations

We wouldn't have been relegated if Fenlon had stayed.

Butcher came in and ****ed the job by telling players they were not wanted and paid the price for his horrendous man management.

Oscar T Grouch
01-12-2017, 01:14 PM
Reading this thread reminds me how far we have come in a relatively short period of time. Compare that team of 4 years ago to this one, compare the lack of structure at the club to how it is now, compare Collins to Stokes or Murray, compare Fenlon/Butcher to Lennon, compare any of the transfer windows back then to the last couple we've had, then smile!

heretoday
01-12-2017, 01:21 PM
It was all the fault of that horrible dark strip we wore.

brog
01-12-2017, 06:43 PM
I’m just catching up with this thread before I go to bed and read these dreadful words,McCreadie,Ward and Scott.How dare you,nightmares for sure now.


Apologies, i had a few more but I'll refrain!

Hibernia&Alba
01-12-2017, 06:47 PM
I was with you until the last sentence - there was nothing in Fenlons record that suggested we would have been anywhere near relegated - he has no responsibility for that - as I said earlier in this thread - his points return was around 1.4 points per game that season. Comfortably mid table performance . Butcher earned around 0.6 points per game - and it was his appalling handling of the squad which created those results ..

Fenlon was not a great manager for us, but he was a lot better than Butcher or Calderwood were - no comparison really - and the facts bear that out

Good post and I totally agree. Butcher took us to a nadir of gashness.

Northernhibee
01-12-2017, 07:07 PM
Pat Fenlon's contract would have run out the summer we were relegated. If he'd stayed to the end of his contract we'd have been lower mid table but we'd never have been relegated.

I formerly worked with an ex Caley Thistle player who was forced out of the club by Butcher and the stories he told me about Butcher paint the man in a terrible light. Not a pleasant character and a dreadful manager.