The Budget

[johnbc70]

Surprised not to see something about this.

Will the SNP follow Westminster and abolish stamp duty for first time buyers up to value of £300,000?

I am sure someone will come along and tell me the extra £2BN is a bad thing because....

I am not really sure of what the implications are of the changes for VAT on Scottish Fire and Police.

Will the SNP keep the higher rate threshold at £43K, making the gap between Scotland and rest of UK bigger.

Lots of discussion points to keep us busy!

[Colr]

Surprised not to see something about this.

Will the SNP follow Westminster and abolish stamp duty for first time buyers up to value of £300,000?

I am sure someone will come along and tell me the extra £2BN is a bad thing because....

I am not really sure of what the implications are of the changes for VAT on Scottish Fire and Police.

Will the SNP keep the higher rate threshold at £43K, making the gap between Scotland and rest of UK bigger.

Lots of discussion points to keep us busy!

They can budget all they want, Brexit is the only show in town.

[johnbc70]

They can budget all they want, Brexit is the only show in town.

Thanks for answering the questions.

[hibsbollah]

It's a 'do nothing' budget, fiddling while the empire burns. English need health and education spending and they got a tiny bit for h and nothing for e. And nothing for local authorities either, so watch every service you can conceivably imagine using being further degraded.

It's worse than Thatcher.

[JeMeSouviens]

The OBR forecasts he announced are pretty grim. Wages (adjusted for inflation) to decline year on year for at least the next 5 years.

[Moulin Yarns]

Surprised not to see something about this.

Will the SNP follow Westminster and abolish stamp duty for first time buyers up to value of £300,000?

I am sure someone will come along and tell me the extra £2BN is a bad thing because....

I am not really sure of what the implications are of the changes for VAT on Scottish Fire and Police.

Will the SNP keep the higher rate threshold at £43K, making the gap between Scotland and rest of UK bigger.

Lots of discussion points to keep us busy!

First thing, The Scottish Government abolished Stamp Duty from April 1 2015. It was replaced by the land and building transaction tax (LBTT).

bearing in mind the huge discrepancies between property values in Scotland compared to large chunks of England it wouldn't make sense to abolish it on purchases up to £300k. it is currently 0% on properties up to £145k

[CropleyWasGod]

Surprised not to see something about this.

Will the SNP follow Westminster and abolish stamp duty for first time buyers up to value of £300,000?

I am sure someone will come along and tell me the extra £2BN is a bad thing because....

I am not really sure of what the implications are of the changes for VAT on Scottish Fire and Police.

Will the SNP keep the higher rate threshold at £43K, making the gap between Scotland and rest of UK bigger.

Lots of discussion points to keep us busy!

They will be able to reclaim VAT incurred on their expenditure. That's about £35m pa for Police Scotland, and c£10m for SFRS.

[johnbc70]

They will be able to reclaim VAT incurred on their expenditure. That's about £35m pa for Police Scotland, and c£10m for SFRS.

Thanks, that sounds positive then.

[johnbc70]

The OBR forecasts he announced are pretty grim. Wages (adjusted for inflation) to decline year on year for at least the next 5 years.

What about the points in my opening post? Good or bad?

[johnbc70]

It's a 'do nothing' budget, fiddling while the empire burns. English need health and education spending and they got a tiny bit for h and nothing for e. And nothing for local authorities either, so watch every service you can conceivably imagine using being further degraded.

It's worse than Thatcher.
So the things I highlighted are good or bad?

[lord bunberry]

Surprised not to see something about this.

Will the SNP follow Westminster and abolish stamp duty for first time buyers up to value of £300,000?

I am sure someone will come along and tell me the extra £2BN is a bad thing because....

I am not really sure of what the implications are of the changes for VAT on Scottish Fire and Police.

Will the SNP keep the higher rate threshold at £43K, making the gap between Scotland and rest of UK bigger.

Lots of discussion points to keep us busy!

I would hope the SNP wouldn’t bother with trying to abolish the tax up to 300k. It would only help a very small minority of first time buyers in Scotland. Surely there’s more important things to be spending time and money on.

[Moulin Yarns]

I would hope the SNP wouldn’t bother with trying to abolish the tax up to 300k. It would only help a very small minority of first time buyers in Scotland. Surely there’s more important things to be spending time and money on.

The average 'first time' home in Scotland is £139,041 (Independent June 2017) so current first time buyers don't generally pay LBTT.

[JeMeSouviens]

Surprised not to see something about this.

Will the SNP follow Westminster and abolish stamp duty for first time buyers up to value of £300,000?

I am sure someone will come along and tell me the extra £2BN is a bad thing because....

I am not really sure of what the implications are of the changes for VAT on Scottish Fire and Police.

Will the SNP keep the higher rate threshold at £43K, making the gap between Scotland and rest of UK bigger.

Lots of discussion points to keep us busy!


The stamp duty relief for first time buyers has been tried before by Alastair Darling but was abandoned because it didn't make much difference to affordability and just pushed prices up.

The VAT for fire and police is good, long overdue and only being done now (imo) as a gimmick to try and make it look like Scots Tory MPs are doing something. In fact Scot gov and SNP MPs have been pushing for this for years so it just looks like a political stunt. But welcome nonetheless.

Yes, I think higher taxes for higher earners feature in pretty much all the options Scot gov are considering for their budget. Politically, it is absolutely crucial for the SNP that there appears to be some consequent benefit in better public services compared to England. And the hard part of that is going to be that even if there is, they are up against a media tsunami of SNP bad.

[Geo_1875]

Surprised not to see something about this.

Will the SNP follow Westminster and abolish stamp duty for first time buyers up to value of £300,000?

I am sure someone will come along and tell me the extra £2BN is a bad thing because....

I am not really sure of what the implications are of the changes for VAT on Scottish Fire and Police.

Will the SNP keep the higher rate threshold at £43K, making the gap between Scotland and rest of UK bigger.

Lots of discussion points to keep us busy!

The SNP can't abolish stamp duty again. Even the BBC missed that one.

£2BN is good if it's in addition to consequentials. Bad if it's not.

Emergency Services VAT not payable from next year. Why not backdated?

Tax rates will probably get the % increase as per Budget.

[hibsbollah]

So the things I highlighted are good or bad?

Abolishing the stamp duty for that cohort of buyers will serve only to jack up demand for houses in that bracket, hence increasing prices and therefore counter productive. Instead you need to actually build some ****ing houses for once :grr: but it's never about supply, seemingly, always stimulating demand...

I don't know about the other things you mention.

[Hibee87]

Abolishing the stamp duty for that cohort of buyers will serve only to jack up demand for houses in that bracket, hence increasing prices and therefore counter productive. Instead you need to actually build some ****ing houses for once :grr: but it's never about supply, seemingly, always stimulating demand...

I don't know about the other things you mention.

Do you think Scotland is not building enough houses? Or do you mean affordable housing?

[johnbc70]

The average 'first time' home in Scotland is £139,041 (Independent June 2017) so current first time buyers don't generally pay LBTT.

That's a telling stat, so would probably agree will have limited impact if the SNP follow on this.

[danhibees1875]

Abolishing the stamp duty for that cohort of buyers will serve only to jack up demand for houses in that bracket, hence increasing prices and therefore counter productive. Instead you need to actually build some ****ing houses for once :grr: but it's never about supply, seemingly, always stimulating demand...

I don't know about the other things you mention.

This. :agree:

Same reason I was cynical about the "Help to Buy ISA" - if you have roughly the same number of houses and buyers, but the buyers get up to £3k from the government then the market would dictate the house values increase £3k.

All you have is a disadvantage for those who don't take out the ISA. Meaning it only serves to keep those close to home ownership and who could afford to save £200/month at the same place as they were and those who were a little off being able to own are then further off.

As you say, they're addressing the wrong side of the problem. Although I wouldn't mind if the Scottish Government were to follow suit and make it 0% LBTT up a bit (even in ratio to 300k for English houses).


I assume the millennial railcard was confirmed today? I was surprised by that one, but my 16-25 was due to expire next summer so, yay! :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Surprised not to see something about this.

Will the SNP follow Westminster and abolish stamp duty for first time buyers up to value of £300,000?

I am sure someone will come along and tell me the extra £2BN is a bad thing because....

I am not really sure of what the implications are of the changes for VAT on Scottish Fire and Police.

Will the SNP keep the higher rate threshold at £43K, making the gap between Scotland and rest of UK bigger.

Lots of discussion points to keep us busy!

The OBR are saying stamp duty in England expected to increase house prices, thus reducing the chance for first time buyers to get on the market.

Real wages falling for the next 5 years.

Growth under 2% for the next 5 years.

Nothing on Social care.

£3Bn for Brexit and only £2.8Bn for the NHS

The £2Bn you've mentioned is not actually £2Bn, theirs a surprise. (devil in the detail)

[hibsbollah]

Do you think Scotland is not building enough houses? Or do you mean affordable housing?

Demand has been outstripping supply for at least ten years, I'm sure there are plenty of sources out there. And yes, affordable housing and smaller properties have particular problems. This exacerbates the problem in the rented sector, rents are rising all the time beyond inflation and increased homelessness is the inevitable result. The market has failed, unless you've been a homeowner for long enough to have some equity and have escaped the current downward cycle.
(I recall you work in housing yourself so probably know something about it;-)

[johnbc70]

The OBR are saying stamp duty in England expected to increase house prices, thus reducing the chance for first time buyers to get on the market.

Real wages falling for the next 5 years.

Growth under 2% for the next 5 years.

Nothing on Social care.

£3Bn for Brexit and only £2.8Bn for the NHS

The £2Bn you've mentioned is not actually £2Bn, theirs a surprise. (devil in the detail)

The Vat reclaim for Scottish Fire and Police a good thing? How is the £2BN not £2BN, was the Chancellor telling lies then?

[ronaldo7]

The Vat reclaim for Scottish Fire and Police a good thing? How is the £2BN not £2BN, was the Chancellor telling lies then?

Vat reclaim is a good thing, but we should be getting the £140million back money.

The £2Bn headline figure is for this year, and the next 3 years, and more than half of that, £1.1Bn, is in the form of financial transactions, money that can only be used for limited purposed, and has to be repaid, by the Scot gov.

Next years Scottish Budget 2018/19 will be cut by £239million.

[ronaldo7]

Public sector pay cap???

[RyeSloan]

Thankfully a lack of tinkering and meddling...the concept that a chancellor can stand up and talk for an hour and make everyone's life better is just that, a concept.

The stamp duty change is the only meaningful change and that somewhat contradicts my first statement on tinkering. The wrong policy aimed at the wrong end of the market. It's the large stamp duty due on bigger transactions that are stopping people moving and thus gumming up a market that was already suffering a decline in transactions.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Vat reclaim is a good thing, but we should be getting the £140million back money.

The £2Bn headline figure is for this year, and the next 3 years, and more than half of that, £1.1Bn, is in the form of financial transactions, money that can only be used for limited purposed, and has to be repaid, by the Scot gov.

Next years Scottish Budget 2018/19 will be cut by £239million.

Im sure you are correct, but the same spurious political accounting is how the 3bn for brexit, 2.8bn for the NHS has been created (the 3bn is actually 1.5bn over two years, and the 2.8bn is additional funding for one year) - it does make a VeRY good headline though, given history of (spurious) nhs slogans amd brexit

Gerlnerally it all seems pretty grim - not his fault per se, but really quite depressing - we are all staring in the face of near-enough two lost decades. Given i will only be on this earth for around 80ish years (with a bit of luxk) thsts a big chunk of my life.

Edit - im talking rubbish, the NHS money isnt a one year boost at all.

[hibsbollah]

Vat reclaim is a good thing, but we should be getting the £140million back money.

The £2Bn headline figure is for this year, and the next 3 years, and more than half of that, £1.1Bn, is in the form of financial transactions, money that can only be used for limited purposed, and has to be repaid, by the Scot gov.

Next years Scottish Budget 2018/19 will be cut by £239million.

Additionally, the £2.8billion NHS 'windfall' announced is for the next three years, staggered. It used to be that an announced figure was the amount awarded for that annual funding cycle, not any more seemingly. It's just a calculated attempt to make it sound more than it is. It certainly won't fund a load of new nurses.

[CropleyWasGod]

Additionally, the £2.8billion NHS 'windfall' announced is for the next three years, staggered. It used to be that an announced figure was the amount awarded for that annual funding cycle, not any more seemingly. It's just a calculated attempt to make it sound more than it is. It certainly won't fund a load of new nurses.

CBA trawling through the small print.

Does that have an effect on the Barnett Formula money.... the supposed notion that, if there's an increase in health spending in England, there's a corresponding one in Scotland as well?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Yeah it does have barnett consequentials i think.

[speedy_gonzales]

Vat reclaim is a good thing, but we should be getting the £140million back money.
How should we get it back? I thought the rules were very clear and well known, Police forces governed by local authorities/councils were eligible to claim back VAT, National forces were not.
The Scottish Government knew this at the time and John Swinney when finance minister even allocated extra funds to offset this anomaly.
I don't agree that Police & Fire Brigades should be paying VAT and they weren't until the deck of cards was shuffled.
The rules and regs on VAT is a minefield anyway, the whole biscuits are luxury(VATted) cake is a necessity (non-VATted)
scrambles my noggin'.

[lapsedhibee]

How should we get it back? I thought the rules were very clear and well known, Police forces governed by local authorities/councils were eligible to claim back VAT, National forces were not.
The Scottish Government knew this at the time and John Swinney when finance minister even allocated extra funds to offset this anomaly.
I don't agree that Police & Fire Brigades should be paying VAT and they weren't until the deck of cards was shuffled.
The rules and regs on VAT is a minefield anyway, the whole biscuits are luxury(VATted) cake is a necessity (non-VATted)
scrambles my noggin'.
Are Jaffa Cakes VATted?

[speedy_gonzales]

Are Jaffa Cakes VATted?

That was the big argument when I worked part time at Makro years back.
I'm fairly certain McVities took it to court and succeeded so there's no VAT on Jaffa Cakes, that information could both be wrong AND out of date though!

[lapsedhibee]

That was the big argument when I worked part time at Makro years back.
I'm fairly certain McVities took it to court and succeeded so there's no VAT on Jaffa Cakes, that information could both be wrong AND out of date though!

Farce. A Jaffa Cake is clearly a biscuit. Was Lord Nimmo Smith involved? :grr: :panic:

[CropleyWasGod]

How should we get it back? I thought the rules were very clear and well known, Police forces governed by local authorities/councils were eligible to claim back VAT, National forces were not.
The Scottish Government knew this at the time and John Swinney when finance minister even allocated extra funds to offset this anomaly.
I don't agree that Police & Fire Brigades should be paying VAT and they weren't until the deck of cards was shuffled.
The rules and regs on VAT is a minefield anyway, the whole biscuits are luxury(VATted) cake is a necessity (non-VATted)
scrambles my noggin'.

Every other Police Force in the UK can reclaim its VAT.

[JeMeSouviens]

Farce. A Jaffa Cake is clearly a biscuit. Was Lord Nimmo Smith involved? :grr: :panic:

Apparently it's a cake because if you leave it too long it goes hard, whereas a biscuit goes soft.

Never see either in our house. :rolleyes:

[Colr]

Thanks for answering the questions.

It was a politician’s answer!

[speedy_gonzales]

Every other Police Force in the UK can reclaim its VAT.
But is the point not that they are LOCAL not NATIONAL?
Rules & regs on VAT are complicated but for some reason National bodies cannot claim VAT back on expenditures. This was known before Police Scotland was formed, that is my point.

[CropleyWasGod]

But is the point not that they are LOCAL not NATIONAL?
Rules & regs on VAT are complicated but for some reason National bodies cannot claim VAT back on expenditures. This was known before Police Scotland was formed, that is my point.And that's why they're not allowed to reclaim it for past years. I reckon HMG have recognised the patent unfairness of the previous set-up. It also, politically, dilutes the argument that Scotland is a "nation" rather than a "region".

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[lapsedhibee]

Apparently it's a cake because if you leave it too long it goes hard, whereas a biscuit goes soft.

What was to prevent the judge/s just saying that biscuits are hard and cakes are soft? Why introduce the delay? Just to bump up legal fees I imagine. Whole system is corrupt.

[ronaldo7]

How should we get it back? I thought the rules were very clear and well known, Police forces governed by local authorities/councils were eligible to claim back VAT, National forces were not.
The Scottish Government knew this at the time and John Swinney when finance minister even allocated extra funds to offset this anomaly.
I don't agree that Police & Fire Brigades should be paying VAT and they weren't until the deck of cards was shuffled.
The rules and regs on VAT is a minefield anyway, the whole biscuits are luxury(VATted) cake is a necessity (non-VATted)
scrambles my noggin'.

Something to do with rules on National forces in England not having to pay vat. Roads, I think. I'd have to check it though.:wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

What was to prevent the judge/s just saying that biscuits are hard and cakes are soft? Why introduce the delay? Just to bump up legal fees I imagine. Whole system is corrupt.

You forgot the orange dimension to the conspiracy. :cb

[RyeSloan]

What was to prevent the judge/s just saying that biscuits are hard and cakes are soft? Why introduce the delay? Just to bump up legal fees I imagine. Whole system is corrupt.

I'm honestly not sure if you are serious or not but must admit I did find the concept of someone deciding our 'whole system' was corrupt on the basis of a legal dispute over biscuits actually rather amusing [emoji106]🤣

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm honestly not sure if you are serious or not but must admit I did find the concept of someone deciding our 'whole system' was corrupt on the basis of a legal dispute over biscuits actually rather amusing [emoji106]🤣

IT'S A ****ING CAKE

:rolleyes:

[Radium]

Something to do with rules on National forces in England not having to pay vat. Roads, I think. I'd have to check it though.:wink:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171122/6004775de90ccf17c70a2efdb880c91a.jpg

Absolutely not an expert in this area but think this is the case that is being quoted



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pete]

Another laughable conservative budget regarding housing.

Increasing council tax for billionaire property investors and abolishing stamp duty are meaningless responses to a very real crisis. As are promises of 300,000 new homes a year.

Flats and houses, things that people can build bases from and forge communities in, are totally at the mercy of those who see property as nothing but a source of profit.

Vested interests are once again protected and it's absolutely infuriating. People who laugh at the thought of any type of socialism in our country might be laughing on the other side of their faces in a few years as something will crack. It's gone too far.

[Geo_1875]

But is the point not that they are LOCAL not NATIONAL?
Rules & regs on VAT are complicated but for some reason National bodies cannot claim VAT back on expenditures. This was known before Police Scotland was formed, that is my point.

Except that PSNI is a central government body and can reclaim VAT.

[snooky]

From Beeb Website....
Analysis: Kamal Ahmed, BBC Economics Editor

What is the point of capitalism?
That might seem like a pretty big question, but one answer could be "to provide people the opportunity through work to become richer".
What, though, if the economy fails in that endeavour?
If the system leaves you - despite all your efforts - worse off in December than you were the previous January?
Or worse off now than you were a decade ago?
It was Lord Adair Turner, the former head of the Low Pay Commission, who put it succinctly.
"The UK over the last 10 years has created a lot of jobs, but today real wages are below where they were in 2007," he told me earlier this year.
"That is not the capitalist system delivering its promise that over a decade or so it will raise all boats, and it is a very fundamental issue."

[Geo_1875]

From Beeb Website....
Analysis: Kamal Ahmed, BBC Economics Editor

What is the point of capitalism?
That might seem like a pretty big question, but one answer could be "to provide people the opportunity through work to become richer".
What, though, if the economy fails in that endeavour?
If the system leaves you - despite all your efforts - worse off in December than you were the previous January?
Or worse off now than you were a decade ago?
It was Lord Adair Turner, the former head of the Low Pay Commission, who put it succinctly.
"The UK over the last 10 years has created a lot of jobs, but today real wages are below where they were in 2007," he told me earlier this year.
"That is not the capitalist system delivering its promise that over a decade or so it will raise all boats, and it is a very fundamental issue."

Capitalism works fine when trickle-down works. When it doesn't it becomes feudalism.

[johnbc70]

Is there not also a quote along the lines of socialism works fine until you run out of other people's money.

[speedy_gonzales]

Except that PSNI is a central government body and can reclaim VAT.
PSNI funding is treated as local authority spending (has been since an agreement in the early 90's) and any saving is offset by a reduction by 2.5% in any block grant increases (Barnett).

Quoted from this link (http://www.these-islands.co.uk/publications/i274/why_do_scotlands_emergency_services_pay_vat.aspx)
"PSNI do not qualify for an s33 VAT rebate. All spending by the Northern Irish Executive is treated as if from a local body and therefore provides PSNI with an s99 rebate on VAT. However, all Barnett consequential increases to the Northern Irish block grant are abated by 2.5% to offset this ability to reclaim VAT. So PSNI do effectively pay VAT, only from the top line rather than the bottom. A fact that was made clear to the Scottish Government in the SPICe report to the audit committee on police reform."

I've said it before, VAT is a minefield!

[hibsbollah]

Is there not also a quote along the lines of socialism works fine until you run out of other people's money.

Yes, although to be fair the comment came from a Mrs Margaret Hilda Thatcher, who probably doesn't qualify as an objective source on the subject :wink:

[Mr Grieves]

Despite welcome but relatively small shifts on Universal Credit, tax and benefit policies announced since Summer Budget 2015 are set to put downward pressure on living standards and upward pressure on inequality. The poorest third of households are set for an average loss of £715 a year by the end of the parliament, while the richest third gain an average of £185.

Grim reading http://www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/freshly-squeezed-autumn-budget-2017-response/

[hibsbollah]

Despite welcome but relatively small shifts on Universal Credit, tax and benefit policies announced since Summer Budget 2015 are set to put downward pressure on living standards and upward pressure on inequality. The poorest third of households are set for an average loss of £715 a year by the end of the parliament, while the richest third gain an average of £185.

Grim reading http://www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/freshly-squeezed-autumn-budget-2017-response/

I read the thing about productivity growth being measured as the worst since before the industrial revolution with total bafflement. How's that even possible??

[Colr]

Tax gap will not be as important as the impact of Brexit and wider economic issues so it only needs time to bed in whilst the real issues play out but its getting some attention down here. One way or the other it will be the basis of policies included in manifestoes come the next election and that could be any time.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/nov/25/scotland-tax-setting-own-rules

[JeMeSouviens]

Tax gap will not be as important as the impact of Brexit and wider economic issues so it only needs time to bed in whilst the real issues play out but its getting some attention down here. One way or the other it will be the basis of policies included in manifestoes come the next election and that could be any time.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/nov/25/scotland-tax-setting-own-rules

I love this kind of pish:


Accountants calculate that if the Scots keep the higher rate at £43,000, it would mean a £50,000 earner would then pay £670 a year more than a colleague on the same income, based in London.

for "accountants" read "anyone with a ****** calculator". :rolleyes:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Ive read quite a lot lately from Labour supporters about how borrowing isnt a problem because they are the issuer of the currency.

Im no economist, so i dont really understans that argument. I get that borrow-to-invest argument, but what they appear to be saying is that borrowing has no downside? If that is true, and it is so straightforward that borrowing 'pays for itself', why isnt everyone doing it and why dont we borrow even more?

It all seems a bit too good to be true - and actually reminds me a bit of yamenomics.

[RyeSloan]

Ive read quite a lot lately from Labour supporters about how borrowing isnt a problem because they are the issuer of the currency.

Im no economist, so i dont really understans that argument. I get that borrow-to-invest argument, but what they appear to be saying is that borrowing has no downside? If that is true, and it is so straightforward that borrowing 'pays for itself', why isnt everyone doing it and why dont we borrow even more?

It all seems a bit too good to be true - and actually reminds me a bit of yamenomics.

It's a minefield for sure!

But with interest costs of £60bn this year and a debt of £1.8trn the concept that borrowing and spending somehow fixes all our woes would seem to have already been proven to be false.

Also the terms 'investment' when it comes to public spending is one that is so often wide of the mark it's unreal.

That's not to say that governments don't have a role to play in funding long term infrastructure projects or educating our population to allow the nation to be more prosperous in the future because they do...it's just that increasing teachers wages for example is often cited as an 'investment' when there is little or no evidence that higher wages leads to better returns (or increased productivity)