Annual Accounts - The failure of HSL

[BSEJVT]

Note 20 Analysis of Cash flows

Hibs received £150,000 in the last financial year from the Issue of Ordinary Shares

Now I know many will be along to tell me that at least Hibs supporters or HSL own some share whereas the Gunts don't.

But on the back of respective achievements / performances of the last 3 or 4 seasons how the ****ing hell can FOH be raising virtually 10 times what we are, it is an absolute disgrace.

I know many will be along to tell me they either paid up or died and I get that.

I also get that we may never match them for that reason

But it is ridiculous the disparity.

I moan about it all the time and get criticised by many for doing so which is fair enough, the question is what can be done about it!

[easty]

Dunno if I'd go so far as to call it a disgrace, but it's a missed opportunity.

We could get much more money into the club than we do just now, and it's obviously so much easier to get people to sign up when things around the club are so good.

[marinello59]

Do we have to judge ourselves based on what that lot over there do with their eternal begging bowls. We seem to be doing better than them as it is.

[CapitalGreen]

Note 20 Analysis of Cash flows

Hibs received £150,000 in the last financial year from the Issue of Ordinary Shares

Now I know many will be along to tell me that at least Hibs supporters or HSL own some share whereas the Gunts don't.

But on the back of respective achievements / performances of the last 3 or 4 seasons how the ****ing hell can FOH be raising virtually 10 times what we are, it is an absolute disgrace.

I know many will be along to tell me they either paid up or died and I get that.

I also get that we may never match them for that reason

But it is ridiculous the disparity.

I moan about it all the time and get criticised by many for doing so which is fair enough, the question is what can be done about it!

HSL is amateur hour in comparison to how FOH is run.

https://www.foundationofhearts.org/

- Events every couple of months - plot ceremonies where donators receive some sort recognition for their contributions.
- A members area where you can track and adjust how much you are donating.
- A rewards scheme.
- An active an visible Chairperson.

http://hiberniansupporters.co.uk/

- The newest news item is a Youtube Video from March 2016 which has garnered 236 views.
- They haven't tweeted in 2 months.
- Nothing tangible to show for your contribution except a certificate you need to jump through hoops to receive.

[HH81]

Re-launch the day after the next derby win and see if this gives it a big boost?

I am being honest I signed up for the points but have continued to pay it since.

[easty]

Do we have to judge ourselves based on what that lot over there do with their eternal begging bowls. We seem to be doing better than them as it is.

We are doing better than them.

There's no much money in Scottish football though, and this kind of additional income would definitely make a difference, and keep us ahead of them.

[Bostonhibby]

I've always seen HSL as a means of buying shares in the club for those that want to do it that way as opposed to buying direct, or buying at all.

It's also a way of influencing whether or not supporters eventually own the whole club or a meaningful share only. I guess demand will determine that but I favour the latter.

As pointed out we weren't forced to do it to save our bankrupt club though if we ever found ourselves there I'm sure we'd do the same as hearts.

The aims of the two schemes are not comparable but if there are Hibs fans out there who can, and want to, club together and donate funds directly beyond HSL then as a shareholder and HSL member since the beginning I say just do it. I might even join you as I'm comfortable with fans owning a meaningful part of the business but not all of it.

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[Ozyhibby]

Do we have to judge ourselves based on what that lot over there do with their eternal begging bowls. We seem to be doing better than them as it is.

We are doing better than them just now because they are failing massively in their recruitment. That won’t always be the case. In the long run, clubs with more to spend do better.


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[Lee Marvin]

Agree completely. This is a massive bugbear of mine too.

We are literally ahead/equal of them in every department (infrastructure, team, managerial staff,attendences, directors, Derby record, league, cups, sellable assets etc) except FOH/HSL where they are miles ahead.

If we can close this gap we can dominate for years to come. If we do not, we start each season with a significant financial disadvantage.

What can be done about this?

[StevieCowan]

Here’s a thought.

I have no desire whatsoever to see supporters run our football club.

However give me a opportunity to tick a box for a DD at £10 a month which is exclusively for the playing budget and I’d do it tomorrow.

The failure of HSL is that there is no real desire to own shares within the fan base.

[Geo_1875]

I don't see it as a failure.

HSL was launched as a vehicle for fans to purchase shares in the club. Along with individual shareholders we now own 34% of the club.

FoH was launched as a vehicle for fans to purchase shares in the club in the form of debt for equity. They currently own zero, zilch, nada but have to keep paying to fund capital investment and running costs.

One day they MIGHT own the club but that day is in the distant future and is by no means guaranteed to come.

I know which one I prefer.

[Geo_1875]

Here’s a thought.

I have no desire whatsoever to see supporters run our football club.

However give me a opportunity to tick a box for a DD at £10 a month which is exclusively for the playing budget and I’d do it tomorrow.

The failure of HSL is that there is no real desire to own shares within the fan base.

Fans can own the club without running it.

Pay £10 a month to HSL and it goes directly to the team.

[marinello59]

We are doing better than them just now because they are failing massively in their recruitment. That won’t always be the case. In the long run, clubs with more to spend do better.


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So asking fans to set up direct debits during times of austerity isn’t working for them then whilst having a well run club supported by high crowds and season ticket sales is working for us?

[Thecat23]

Can’t say I have been a fan of supporters owning a club. I like the idea of what another poster SC said about paying DD to help the transfer funds. I’d happily pay that!

That’s just me though and I respect others would rather own a share of the club.

[GreenPJ]

The bigger challenge is how you make Scottish Football sustainable and competitive without constantly having to go to the fan base.

There are constant moans about the price of season tickets or prices of games and then on the other hand we want more to contribute to a scheme that whilst it does buy a collective share in the club there is only ever going to be so much influence that share will have and how often would it really get used as a differentiator.

I would not want to get to a point where we have to rely on that additional goodwill of supporters to keep the lights on on a day to day basis.

Clubs have a captive audience and have various facilities at their disposal and I think they need to think smarter as to how they utilise these things to generate 'opportunistic' income that can be used to top-up other regular streams of income.

[Sioux]

HSL is not the problem. Hibs fans are well aware of it's existence. People need to stop wi the attitude that it's always someone else's fault. If fans want to pay they will pay, if not..............

[marinello59]

The bigger challenge is how you make Scottish Football sustainable and competitive without constantly having to go to the fan base.

There are constant moans about the price of season tickets or prices of games and then on the other hand we want more to contribute to a scheme that whilst it does buy a collective share in the club there is only ever going to be so much influence that share will have and how often would it really get used as a differentiator.

I would not want to get to a point where we have to rely on that additional goodwill of supporters to keep the lights on on a day to day basis.

Clubs have a captive audience and have various facilities at their disposal and I think they need to think smarter as to how they utilise these things to generate 'opportunistic' income that can be used to top-up other regular streams of income.
:top marks

[BSEJVT]

Do we have to judge ourselves based on what that lot over there do with their eternal begging bowls. We seem to be doing better than them as it is.

That is exactly the type of complacency that will ensure it doesn't last long!

According to the accounts it looks like Cummings went for £500k

They are currently raising enough funds to buy 2 Cummings more than us a year

I accept that is a trite statement but for most of my adult life I have watched Hibs teams lose to financially doped Hearts team's

This is different they are raising 10 times we are legitimately

It will I know be donkeys before this translates to money spent on the team, but by then it will be too late

The time for action is now, when our engagement with the club is as high as it is ever likely to get

[marinello59]

That is exactly the type of complacency that will ensure it doesn't last long!

According to the accounts it looks like Cummings went for £500k

They are currently raising enough funds to buy 2 Cummings more than us a year

I accept that is a trite statement but for most of my adult life I have watched Hibs teams lose to financially doped Hearts team's

This is different they are raising 10 times we are legitimately

It will I know be donkeys before this translates to money spent on the team, but by then it will be too late

The time for action is now, when our engagement with the club is as high as it is ever likely to get

It’s not complacency. Post 15 sums things up for me.

[BSEJVT]

Here’s a thought.

I have no desire whatsoever to see supporters run our football club.

However give me a opportunity to tick a box for a DD at £10 a month which is exclusively for the playing budget and I’d do it tomorrow.

The failure of HSL is that there is no real desire to own shares within the fan base.

Wouldn't disagree with this at all

IMO part of the reason for the failure of HSL is that there is no long term plan or option to do as you suggest

That and the facts that engagement with subscribers either existing or would be and publicity are virtually nil.

It is all just such a wasted opportunity that I fear we will live to regret in the decades to come

[GreenCastle]

I would be interested to know what ages are buying shares.

I know these days many of the younger generation dont see shares as a cool thing to have or in most cases can’t afford extra.

The other issue is as always with money is making sure you feel it’s going to something worthwhile.

If there was a simpler way to donate and support the playing side in sure many more would do that.

I also agree about fan ownership - it’s risky.

Hearts aren’t anywhere near it and I’m still not sure how sustainable it will be in the long run with the way football continues to develop and the millions being spent by teams. Nearly every top team has a rich owner of some sort.

[easty]

Here’s a thought.

I have no desire whatsoever to see supporters run our football club.

However give me a opportunity to tick a box for a DD at £10 a month which is exclusively for the playing budget and I’d do it tomorrow.

The failure of HSL is that there is no real desire to own shares within the fan base.


Can’t say I have been a fan of supporters owning a club. I like the idea of what another poster SC said about paying DD to help the transfer funds. I’d happily pay that!

That’s just me though and I respect others would rather own a share of the club.

:agree:

[Firestarter]

Do we have to judge ourselves based on what that lot over there do with their eternal begging bowls. We seem to be doing better than them as it is.

In the long term they will have a constant cash flow though it could be easy for them to stop paying now and leave it to Cludge also.

I've no idea why so many are against putting a tenner a month into making our club grow bigger whilst also being apart of the majority shareholding of it gets the desired amount.

[Bostonhibby]

Aren't FOH actually saving up so they can pay the debt back to the good doctor but the money so far has subsidised running costs and the big maintenance issues culminating in a whole new stand having to be paid for?

This long term objective is further away than at the beginning and it's a huge assumption to say they'll all continue if the aim is ever achieved? The good doctor might want to build something else.

Our family yam was a giver and he didn't hesitate to pull out when Budge "saved" them. When I told him it still had to be paid for it didn't compute.

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[B.H.F.C]

HSL is not the problem. Hibs fans are well aware of it's existence. People need to stop wi the attitude that it's always someone else's fault. If fans want to pay they will pay, if not..............

There are plenty things in the world that simply exist. Generally, the ones that are more successful market themselves and communicate with people.

HSL seem to merely exist, they're hardly pushing for new members and engaging with existing are they?

[Alan62]

The disparity between HSL and FoH is a bit of a puzzle. I think it's fair to say that FoH benefited massively from being formed at a time of crisis. The FoH supporters have really bought in to 'saving their club' in a big way, which was quite deftly turned into building the stand by the organisers in order to sustain the level of donations. While we've all had a good chuckle at the scale of hyperbole surrounding the new main stand at Tynecastle, it's served its purpose because the donations keep rolling in.

Personally, I find the whole FoH thing extremely odd. It's like a cult. They pay their cash and don't ask questions. The cash goes straight to working capital while, apparently, other people make big decisions on how it's used - like (ahem!) upgrading the facilities in the new stand to a higher level than originally specified.

HSL is a different beast. There's no sense of crisis at Hibs. There isn't a huge appetite for full fan ownership. If anything, the fans reps on the board scheme, has shown that most fans are fish out of water at board level and that the actual demands of the job soon compromises their allegiance with the demands of the average fan.

Having said all that, I don't think HSL has got its message over to folks who would be happy to support it. After all, the money paid in goes direct to the team. HSL needs to make itself more visible to the fans. It has to engage. It has to demonstrate the work it's doing and it has to prove its credibility as a future force in the management of the club. I'm not convinced it's done any of that so far.

[Firestarter]

:agree:

Didn't the HSL help fund the signing of Super John?

[Alan62]

Didn't the HSL help fund the signing of Super John?

Notionally, yes. Or any player for that matter. The cash goes straight into the budget for playing staff. It isn't ring-fence for one player over any other though.

[B.H.F.C]

In the long term they will have a constant cash flow though it could be easy for them to stop paying now and leave it to Cludge also.

I've no idea why so many are against putting a tenner a month into making our club grow bigger whilst also being apart of the majority shareholding of it gets the desired amount.

I think a big problem is that people don't really understand what 'fan ownership' actually means, what happens if we ever get to that point and so on.

[Alan62]

I think a big problem is that people don't really understand what 'fan ownership' actually means, what happens when if we ever get to that point and so on.

Which is precisely why that has to be communicated by HSL and the club.

There has to be a credible model for the future that allows the club to continue to progress.

[marinello59]

In the long term they will have a constant cash flow though it could be easy for them to stop paying now and leave it to Cludge also.

I've no idea why so many are against putting a tenner a month into making our club grow bigger whilst also being apart of the majority shareholding of it gets the desired amount.

Don't put word in to my mouth. If people can afford to put an extra tenner a month in to the club then thats up to them. It should only be an extra, a bonus if you like, rather than an income stream that the club could not operate without .When a professional organisation paying salaries far in excess of what most fans earn starts running itself like a charity then the whole game needs to take a look at itself.
I do pay in to HSL but I do so in the knowledge that it is no longer a route to full fan ownership. We managed to set up a vehicle for fan ownership that can never achieve a majority shareholding.

[Arch Stanton]

I don't see it as a failure.

HSL was launched as a vehicle for fans to purchase shares in the club. Along with individual shareholders we now own 34% of the club.

FoH was launched as a vehicle for fans to purchase shares in the club in the form of debt for equity. They currently own zero, zilch, nada but have to keep paying to fund capital investment and running costs.

One day they MIGHT own the club but that day is in the distant future and is by no means guaranteed to come.

I know which one I prefer.

It looks like HSL/share selling will have done it's job (ie 51% fan ownership) in another couple of years time. I suppose better marketting of shares could see that reduced a bit but there really isn't any point.

I fully expect that the HSL income stream will continue after the 51% deadline is reached, albeit in some other form - I know I have every intention of continuing contributions.

I also fully expect that interest in Hearts ownership will have started to dwindle long before they have acheived anything like %51 ownership - football fans are a fickle lot in my view and if they don't deliver on the pitch then AB could well be left holding the baby.

[Ozyhibby]

Didn't the HSL help fund the signing of Super John?

Don’t think so, he was already here but it did help fund Stokes loan. Money well spent I’d say.


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[Firestarter]

Notionally, yes. Or any player for that matter. The cash goes straight into the budget for playing staff. It isn't ring-fence for one player over any other though.

Doesn't that answer the proposal to the posters saying they would sign up tomorrow if it was a scheme to go right into transfer kitty?

[Arch Stanton]

Don't put word in to my mouth. If people can afford to put an extra tenner a month in to the club then thats up to them. It should only be an extra, a bonus if you like, rather than an income stream that the club could not operate without .When a professional organisation paying salaries far in excess of what most fans starts running itself like a charity then the whole game needs to take a look at itself.
I do pay in to HSL but I do so in the knowledge that it is no longer a route to full fan ownership. We managed to set up a vehicle for fan ownership that can never achieve a majority shareholding.

I'm sorry but a fully subscribed 51% share issue (which it will be at some point in the not too distant future) is in no way a negative - provided of course that the funds raised are used wisely.

Since it also protects the club from an asset stripping takeover then it is of huge benefit in my book.

[Ozyhibby]

Doesn't that answer the proposal to the posters saying they would sign up tomorrow if it was a scheme to go right into transfer kitty?

It is a scheme that goes directly to finding the playing squad. There are no other big items the club is currently spending money on.
HSL needs a revamp and a proper relaunch, no doubt about it. But the structure of the scheme is exactly what people say they want, which is extra money for the manager.


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[Firestarter]

Don't put word in to my mouth. If people can afford to put an extra tenner a month in to the club then thats up to them. It should only be an extra, a bonus if you like, rather than an income stream that the club could not operate without .When a professional organisation paying salaries far in excess of what most fans starts running itself like a charity then the whole game needs to take a look at itself.
I do pay in to HSL but I do so in the knowledge that it is no longer a route to full fan ownership. We managed to set up a vehicle for fan ownership that can never achieve a majority shareholding.

Sorry, the first papargraph was a reply to you the second was my personal thoughts in general, I should have made that clear.

I would agree with a lot of your post too. Comparing it again to the foh though, I don't think the majority of their donators see it as a way to run the club as fan ownership either, they see it as putting money into the club to help for years to come and for that reason I can see why they are proud of their fan funded main stand (one day).

[CapitalGreen]

Aren't FOH actually saving up so they can pay the debt back to the good doctor but the money so far has subsidised running costs and the big maintenance issues culminating in a whole new stand having to be paid for?

This long term objective is further away than at the beginning and it's a huge assumption to say they'll all continue if the aim is ever achieved? The good doctor might want to build something else.

Our family yam was a giver and he didn't hesitate to pull out when Budge "saved" them. When I told him it still had to be paid for it didn't compute.

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I've read on here that Hearts fans would discontinue their contributions after:
- Surviving admin
- Getting promoted
- Getting beat by us
- Building their stand

The reality is both clubs have a portion of their support willing and able to contribute to their clubs over and above what they spend on season tickets. As much as many on here will be loathe to admit, Hearts & FOH are engaging these types of supporters far better than we are and reaping the benefits from doing so.

[Firestarter]

It is a scheme that goes directly to finding the playing squad. There are no other big items the club is currently spending money on.
HSL needs a revamp and a proper relaunch, no doubt about it. But the structure of the scheme is exactly what people say they want, which is extra money for the manager.




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This definitely needs to be made clearer then in that case.

[green day]

It is a scheme that goes directly to finding the playing squad. There are no other big items the club is currently spending money on.
HSL needs a revamp and a proper relaunch, no doubt about it. But the structure of the scheme is exactly what people say they want, which is extra money for the manager.


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Correct.

I couldn't give 2 hoots about owning the club, but have contributed to HSL since day 1 and continued after the initial period expired.

It needs a straightforward relaunch to clarify that all and any money goes strictly to NL for players.

Shares "bought" as a result of Farmers largesse is a side issue.

[Big_Franck]

Note 20 Analysis of Cash flows

Hibs received £150,000 in the last financial year from the Issue of Ordinary Shares

Now I know many will be along to tell me that at least Hibs supporters or HSL own some share whereas the Gunts don't.

But on the back of respective achievements / performances of the last 3 or 4 seasons how the ****ing hell can FOH be raising virtually 10 times what we are, it is an absolute disgrace.

I know many will be along to tell me they either paid up or died and I get that.

I also get that we may never match them for that reason

But it is ridiculous the disparity.

I moan about it all the time and get criticised by many for doing so which is fair enough, the question is what can be done about it!

I agree, the massive difference in numbers is a bit embarrassing to be honest. There are thousands of Hibs fans that can afford to contribute to HSL but don't. Why that is you'd need to ask them. It baffles me.

[Arch Stanton]

I've read on here that Hearts fans would discontinue their contributions after:
- Surviving admin
- Getting promoted
- Getting beat by us
- Building their stand

The reality is both clubs have a portion of their support willing and able to contribute to their clubs over and above what they spend on season tickets. As much as many on here will be loathe to admit, Hearts & FOH are engaging these types of supporters far better than we are and reaping the benefits from doing so.

Surely, before the club can 'reap the benfits' AB will need to 'reap the benfits' of being re-imbursed for the money she paid to bail out the club.

[GreenOnions]

The board are enabling HSL to achieve what some posters on here are saying they want - which is simply to directly fund the playing budget via a DD.

The only real difference from what these fans want is that the scheme does something else at the same time. It is trying to safeguard the club for the future by enabling a significant proportion of its shares to be owned by fans to prevent speculative ownership by the likes of Romanov etc once Sir Tom bows out.

By issuing new shares as opposed to selling existing equity the board are doing exactly what posters above want (ie enabling monthly DDs to go directly to NLs budget) BUT AT THE SAME TIME gradually ceding ownership of the club to fans without profiting themselves.

To be frank - it's difficult to imagine how the scheme itself could be better conceived.

[JeMeSouviens]

I agree, the massive difference in numbers is a bit embarrassing to be honest. There are thousands of Hibs fans that can afford to contribute to HSL but don't. Why that is you'd need to ask them. It baffles me.

Maybe they feel not far shy of £400 is enough of their disposable income to be spending on football already?

I've no problem with folk doing what they want with their own money, but mostly because of the desperate state Hearts got themselves into, FoH became this pressure thing that measured the worthiness of fans. They will undoubtedly have people paying into it that can't afford it and every little pressure on stretched family budgets is a bad thing, imo.

[Big_Franck]

Maybe they feel not far shy of £400 is enough of their disposable income to be spending on football already?

I've no problem with folk doing what they want with their own money, but mostly because of the desperate state Hearts got themselves into, FoH became this pressure thing that measured the worthiness of fans. They will undoubtedly have people paying into it that can't afford it and every little pressure on stretched family budgets is a bad thing, imo.

Totally agree. If anyone can't afford to pay in to HSL then they absolutely shouldn't, even more so if they have kids.

Stating the obvious here, but it's of course down to each football fan how they spend their disposable income. What confuses me is the huge gulf in numbers of hearts and hibs fans that chose to use their disposable income supporting their team through HSL/FOH.

Attendances would indicate we have roughly the same number of fans. Is the average yam just more well off? Why are they far, far more willing to support their club through regular DDs?

[Ozyhibby]

Maybe they feel not far shy of £400 is enough of their disposable income to be spending on football already?

I've no problem with folk doing what they want with their own money, but mostly because of the desperate state Hearts got themselves into, FoH became this pressure thing that measured the worthiness of fans. They will undoubtedly have people paying into it that can't afford it and every little pressure on stretched family budgets is a bad thing, imo.

FoH doesn’t measure the worthiness of fans. About half of the hearts support don’t bother with it. They are no less Hearts fans for it.


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[BSEJVT]

Maybe they feel not far shy of £400 is enough of their disposable income to be spending on football already?

I've no problem with folk doing what they want with their own money, but mostly because of the desperate state Hearts got themselves into, FoH became this pressure thing that measured the worthiness of fans. They will undoubtedly have people paying into it that can't afford it and every little pressure on stretched family budgets is a bad thing, imo.

Couldn't agree more

There is no way that folk should be brow beaten into such a scheme and I am not advocating such a thing for a second.

There are however people who would like to or be willing to do more to help Hibs if someone would make it easier for them, communicate with them and encourage them to do so.

HSL does none of these things, in my experience it wont even reply to correspondence.

There was I believe a recent meeting, which I couldn't attend as I was out the country.

At the very least they could have reported on that and used that to drive a relaunch.

If my business was being criticised as often as HSL are on here I would engage with those criticising and find out their issues and try and engage their help or at least their ideas to do better.

Its almost as if they don't care enough to do so or aren't resourced enough to engage.

We seem to have a few figureheads lending their name to it and other than that it seems to be run with les vim and vigour than your local bowling club by folk who don't appear to have the time to do more.

It seems to be completely lacking in cohesion, structure or resource.

The prospect of any of those currently involved taking HSL's seat on the board leaves me utterly cold and afraid. (BTW for the avoidance of doubt I don't include the "figureheads" in that statement but by the same token I wouldn't want just a figurehead representing me anyway, I would want someone willing and able to do so and appropriately qualified for the task by other than their "figurehead" status)

Maybe the club put restrictions on them promoting themselves (although I cant see why they would)

I have never, not once, seen anyone or anything from HSL at ER trying to recruit new members

Even leaflets at the turnstiles would be something

IMO HSL needs to communicate better is full intentions, short medium and long term.

If it is not the vehicle to enable those who don't wish fan ownership or who want to continue funding beyond maximum fan ownership being achieved then we need to come up with one and pronto.

I wont sit back and in years to come listen to my grandchildren ask me why we seldom beat Hearts (if the worm turns again) and glibly tell them that I couldn't be bothered agitating for an organisation that would have enabled us to do so.

[BSEJVT]

Totally agree. If anyone can't afford to pay in to HSL then they absolutely shouldn't, even more so if they have kids.

Stating the obvious here, but it's of course down to each football fan how they spend their disposable income. What confuses me is the huge gulf in numbers of hearts and hibs fans that chose to use their disposable income supporting their team through HSL/FOH.

Attendances would indicate we have roughly the same number of fans. Is the average yam just more well off? Why are they far, far more willing to support their club through regular DDs?

That's the puzzle for me too.

I know they had their "event" and probably felt they had to, but a willing volunteer is better than a dozen conscripts.

I would guess its a momentum thing, nothing succeeds like success.

They are rightly lauded for their efforts and as others have said are kept far more involved./ informed.

I have no doubt that HSL suffers from its very low profile and engagement and partly from the fact that as so few contribute it to it there is a lack of buzz or awareness around it and it is never a topic of conversation.

[Argylehibby]

The board are enabling HSL to achieve what some posters on here are saying they want - which is simply to directly fund the playing budget via a DD.

The only real difference from what these fans want is that the scheme does something else at the same time. It is trying to safeguard the club for the future by enabling a significant proportion of its shares to be owned by fans to prevent speculative ownership by the likes of Romanov etc once Sir Tom bows out.

By issuing new shares as opposed to selling existing equity the board are doing exactly what posters above want (ie enabling monthly DDs to go directly to NLs budget) BUT AT THE SAME TIME gradually ceding ownership of the club to fans without profiting themselves.

To be frank - it's difficult to imagine how the scheme itself could be better conceived.

Once STF decides to bow out, finding someone to buy his shares will be harder for him because of the fan ownership. If fans have 51% of the shares the buyer is buying something they will have no control over. It's like buying a telly and giving someone else the remote.

To make things worse for the buyer the voting system adopted by HSL for the shares they hold can mean less control. Unless the voting structure has been changed lately under HSL rules if 50.1% of members voting vote one way, 100% of the shares HSL hold are voted that way. The 49.9% of voters may agree with the buyer but their portion of the HSL overall shareholding will be voted against.

[Sioux]

The bottom line is that HSL was conceived to allow fans to own shares. Nothing more and nothing less. The money for those shares goes direct to the club.

HSL was not set up as a fund to organise gift donations. That is something entirely different. If fans want that sort of vehicle, it is up to the fans to create it. As it stands at the minute there is nothing to stop individual fans from setting up a DD - the recipient being Hibernian FC.

There are many ways for fans to get money into the club. A voluntary surcharge on season tickets or match tickets for example would probably be fairly simple to organise, although it would need the club's input into that.

A separate bank account in the club's name could be created to enable fans to donate at their leisure, whether direct debit or one off payments.

For those that want to contribute, stop moaning and blaming HSL, do something about it. You could start with a poll to gauge interest. I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

[Bostonhibby]

I've read on here that Hearts fans would discontinue their contributions after:
- Surviving admin
- Getting promoted
- Getting beat by us
- Building their stand

The reality is both clubs have a portion of their support willing and able to contribute to their clubs over and above what they spend on season tickets. As much as many on here will be loathe to admit, Hearts & FOH are engaging these types of supporters far better than we are and reaping the benefits from doing so.I agree with all of this.

I guess bigging up their scheme as something grander/bigger than HSL is something I'd expect them to naturally do as it's all they have left in the all important being big department.

The main difficulty I see is how we interpret FOH as being something that will inevitably make them stronger on the pitch. It's not where the bulk of the money is destined, however much Budge directs it to other areas, in the end and later than planned it has to pay her back.

In future the yams might own the club and may want to continue some sort of voluntary ongoing scheme where the money goes direct to the football side.

Whenever HSL reaches it's natural end for some or as an alternative we could easily set up another fund to match what we think FOH is doing. Just spend it differently. Less money could maintain a better football advantage.

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[Green Badger]

The board are enabling HSL to achieve what some posters on here are saying they want - which is simply to directly fund the playing budget via a DD.

The only real difference from what these fans want is that the scheme does something else at the same time. It is trying to safeguard the club for the future by enabling a significant proportion of its shares to be owned by fans to prevent speculative ownership by the likes of Romanov etc once Sir Tom bows out.

By issuing new shares as opposed to selling existing equity the board are doing exactly what posters above want (ie enabling monthly DDs to go directly to NLs budget) BUT AT THE SAME TIME gradually ceding ownership of the club to fans without profiting themselves.

To be frank - it's difficult to imagine how the scheme itself could be better conceived.

I would think most Hibs fans would agree that the concept of the HSL scheme itself is a good one. However, the issue is that the marketing of HSL leaves a lot to be desired. If they improved that I have no doubt contributions would increase. They have already missed some key opportunities to do this such as after the SC win etc...

[J-C]

I have no interest to buy shares in the club, I buy my season ticket and hope that the club invest the money wisely in the squad, I would be up for paying £10 pm DD if it is going directly to the playing squad.

[Mikey]

For those of you willing to pay towards the playing fund with no return, Leith Links does that and it also gets kids along to games.

[Iain G]

The board are enabling HSL to achieve what some posters on here are saying they want - which is simply to directly fund the playing budget via a DD.

The only real difference from what these fans want is that the scheme does something else at the same time. It is trying to safeguard the club for the future by enabling a significant proportion of its shares to be owned by fans to prevent speculative ownership by the likes of Romanov etc once Sir Tom bows out.

By issuing new shares as opposed to selling existing equity the board are doing exactly what posters above want (ie enabling monthly DDs to go directly to NLs budget) BUT AT THE SAME TIME gradually ceding ownership of the club to fans without profiting themselves.

To be frank - it's difficult to imagine how the scheme itself could be better conceived.

And I don't understand how anyone could class it as any kind of failure? :confused:

[Firestarter]

For those of you willing to pay towards the playing fund with no return, Leith Links does that and it also gets kids along to games.

Is there a way to find out the difference between what they and hsl put into the club last year?

[Michael]

Here’s a thought.

I have no desire whatsoever to see supporters run our football club.

However give me a opportunity to tick a box for a DD at £10 a month which is exclusively for the playing budget and I’d do it tomorrow.

The failure of HSL is that there is no real desire to own shares within the fan base.

The main benefit is that if the fans own a big percentage of the club then we're protected from someone like Romanov coming along and buying us.

[Firestarter]

And I don't understand how anyone could class it as any kind of failure? :confused:

Because there is and always will be a comparison staring us in the coupon.

[Bostonhibby]

The main benefit is that if the fans own a big percentage of the club then we're protected from someone like Romanov coming along and buying us.Why I've been in all along.

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[Bostonhibby]

Because there is and always will be a comparison staring us in the coupon.Do you know what %age of FOH funds are indefinitely committed to the footballing side?

Not looking for an argument just trying to highlight the fundamental difference between the schemes.

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[Green_one]

I do pay in to HSL but I do so in the knowledge that it is no longer a route to full fan ownership. .

I am not certain the Hearts position is better, as they are effectively paying off a debt to an outside entity. Though admittedly that has helped them build a stand, that target is even further away. While our funding all goes to the team.

Perhaps the issue is only mentioning shares, which are largely immaterial. Could we for example provide multiple options that tick other people boxes?

1. Share ownership
2. Transfer fund - goes directly to buying / paying extra players
3. Youth set up - use to improve youth player(s) -name them
4. Infrastructure - used for ground or training facilities.
5. Kids - used for providing tickets, school contacts play areas etc.

And you are allowed to blend them. Then report frequently on what the funds are and what has been done with them. INVEST in an area that attracts YOU. Simples. I would contribute to something like this.

[Firestarter]

Do you know what %age of FOH funds are indefinitely committed to the footballing side?

Not looking for an argument just trying to highlight the fundamental difference between the schemes.

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No idea at all. All I know is they have a lot more contributors than us big time.

[Bighoose]

HSL and HOF started out for completely different reasons. This is why the base numbers are different.

I contribute to HSL because I wanted to give some additional funds to the club.

Couple of mates who i go to the games with could easily afford to match my contribution but chose not to as they think their ST is enough money to be giving the club.

Guys I know who contribute to HOF did it originally to help their club survive, they continue to contribute now as its just something they do.

Agree tho that HSL could do far more to attract new contributions There must be a number of Hibs fans who dont know HSL exist or else have forgotten that they do.

[simple]

I've just copied the below from another thread where i've posted about this and have also done so in the past.


Out of me and my mates we have about 10 season tickets, and I'm the only one who pays into HSL.

I've mentioned it on a few occasions in the pub and many have said they would put in £5, £10 or £15 a month, but never get around to doing it.

If this scheme was properly driven I believe we would majorly increase our contributors.

However I think hibs don't like to be seen as having the begging bowl out, unlike another club who have the begging bowl out at every opportunity.

I think HSL could be much more successful with the correct drive, marketing, regular updates etc

[Bostonhibby]

No idea at all. All I know is they have a lot more contributors than us big time.Unless Budge asks for a variation such as to build a stand, or cover running costs when they couldn't pay the bills it's currently zero as they're hoping to save up enough to pay their debts to her plus whatever they might have to do next.

Incidentally I'm not decrying their terrific effort which was needed just to save their club. It's an interesting comparison with Sevco fans for example. If I was a yamsaver with a business head on I'd be wondering what's next? When do we get one share and how much will we end up having to save up to pay the owner in the end.

Once they're clear of all that they might start up a fund just for the footballing side.

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[Bostonhibby]

HSL and HOF started out for completely different reasons. This is why the base numbers are different.

I contribute to HSL because I wanted to give some additional funds to the club.

Couple of mates who i go to the games with could easily afford to match my contribution but chose not to as they think their ST is enough money to be giving the club.

Guys I know who contribute to HOF did it originally to help their club survive, they continue to contribute now as its just something they do.

Agree tho that HSL could do far more to attract new contributions There must be a number of Hibs fans who dont know HSL exist or else have forgotten that they do.[emoji106]

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[Keith_M]

Their club was in danger of extinction and they rallied to the cause. We would (and have previously) done exactly the same.

They've managed to keep this going, presumably as they're desperate to never get into the same fix again, which is perfectly understandable.

Hibs, on the other hand, were at no time in dire straits financially and there doesn't seem to be the same level of desire to actually own the club, presumably because most people think the current owner is trustworthy.


Hibs are currently in a much better state than they are when it comes to football matters, and own both our completed stadium and training ground. Extra income would be nice but they're not going to keep this going indefinitely, so I'm not too worried about it.

[G B Young]

How many Hibs fans actually want fan ownership? How many Hearts fans actually want it for that matter?

I think HSL got an initial kick-start due to the disillusionment with relegation/the perceived lack of direction within the club and the desire for change among many fans, but since the transformation spearheaded by Leann Dempster I'd suggest the appetite for 'takeover' has diluted and that most are by and large delighted with the way the club is now being run.

That's not to say HSL can't play an important role, but it needs to make its presence felt more effectively (and I don't doubt the club realise this). I signed up and paid my tenner a month (or whatever sum it was) until I'd reached a certain sum. I think I might have been asked to renew, but can't honestly remember. Basically apart from a couple of letters from Kenny McAskill, I didn't get much in the way of feedback. If this is a body with serious ambitions to eventually secure a majority stake in the club it needs to up its game and make that prospect sound genuinely worth working towards.

As others have suggested, if HSL were to restate its key purpose and make it clear that it was simply a vehicle by which fans could pay a certain sum each month directly into the transfer kitty that would be fine with me.

[StevieCowan]

Fans can own the club without running it.

Pay £10 a month to HSL and it goes directly to the team.

I don’t what fans owning the club, looks at the crap that the fans rep take on a daily basis.

Keep the model as we have it.

[WhileTheChief..]

It used to be that going to Easter Road as a walk up or ST holder was good enough.

Now we are being asked to donate money on top of this.

I don’t want to own a part of the club and I dread the thought of us being totally fan owned.

We have a finance director and a marketing director on the board. It’s up to them to maximise revenues.

Me paying £10 a month is not going to change a damn thing.

My view on this from the beginning was simply that STF wants shot of the club and this seemed like an easy way to do so in the absence of anyone buying the club outright from him.

Regularly see posts on here about how much of he club the fans own in comparison to Hearts or Motherwell etc. as if us owning more is somehow better.

Celtic are a PLC and are doing fine.
Aberdeen have a single owner and are doing fine.
Motherwell are owned by their fans and are doing fine.

There’s no one magical way to run a club. We seem to be doing fine as we are!

[StevieCowan]

For those of you willing to pay towards the playing fund with no return, Leith Links does that and it also gets kids along to games.

Mikey, with massive respect to LL on what it achieves and as a contributor there comes a point where having kids ST’s every weekend costs the club money when it comes around to “sell out games”

One for the fans reps..on the next ST renewal form put an option tick a box for £10 per month DD and let’s see if there’s an appetite.

Or email out to all ST holders now with a message from
NL and a link to sign up.

[Bostonhibby]

Mikey, with massive respect to LL on what it achieves and as a contributor there comes a point where having kids ST’s every weekend costs the club money when it comes around to “sell out games”

One for the fans reps..on the next ST renewal form put an option tick a box for £10 per month DD and let’s see if there’s an appetite.

Or email out to all ST holders now with a message from
NL and a link to sign up.I think the club have now "capped" the number of tickets leithlinks can buy.

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[hhibs]

The disparity between HSL and FoH is a bit of a puzzle. I think it's fair to say that FoH benefited massively from being formed at a time of crisis. The FoH supporters have really bought in to 'saving their club' in a big way, which was quite deftly turned into building the stand by the organisers in order to sustain the level of donations. While we've all had a good chuckle at the scale of hyperbole surrounding the new main stand at Tynecastle, it's served its purpose because the donations keep rolling in.

Personally, I find the whole FoH thing extremely odd. It's like a cult. They pay their cash and don't ask questions. The cash goes straight to working capital while, apparently, other people make big decisions on how it's used - like (ahem!) upgrading the facilities in the new stand to a higher level than originally specified.

HSL is a different beast. There's no sense of crisis at Hibs. There isn't a huge appetite for full fan ownership. If anything, the fans reps on the board scheme, has shown that most fans are fish out of water at board level and that the actual demands of the job soon compromises their allegiance with the demands of the average fan.

Having said all that, I don't think HSL has got its message over to folks who would be happy to support it. After all, the money paid in goes direct to the team. HSL needs to make itself more visible to the fans. It has to engage. It has to demonstrate the work it's doing and it has to prove its credibility as a future force in the management of the club. I'm not convinced it's done any of that so far.

Agreed,I would think though it needs root and branch reorganisation,to me ,it has thus far been pretty woeful.

[hhibs]

Mikey, with massive respect to LL on what it achieves and as a contributor there comes a point where having kids ST’s every weekend costs the club money when it comes around to “sell out games”

One for the fans reps..on the next ST renewal form put an option tick a box for £10 per month DD and let’s see if there’s an appetite.

Or email out to all ST holders now with a message from


NL and a link to sign up.

Not just to season ticket holders there is a much wider audience that should be targeted.There are many Hibees that are not ,for various reasons season ticket holders, who would contribute,we need to use a broader database than that.

[GreenOnions]

I would think most Hibs fans would agree that the concept of the HSL scheme itself is a good one. However, the issue is that the marketing of HSL leaves a lot to be desired. If they improved that I have no doubt contributions would increase. They have already missed some key opportunities to do this such as after the SC win etc...

I can't disagree with this. We need to acknowledge that it's easy to sit on the sidelines and complain but wouldn't it be great if HSL could really be given a promotions and marketing overhaul?

These are tough times financially for a lot of us but I'm sure there are some who could and would contribute to HSL and who would be encouraged to do so by a really positive and targeted promo campaign which was ongoing.

[BSEJVT]

For those of you willing to pay towards the playing fund with no return, Leith Links does that and it also gets kids along to games.

Its not quite as simple as that any more Mikey

Hibs have had to cap the number of KFK tickets available and I believe (Suzy will confirm one way or another) that we currently subscribe more than there are tickets available to buy

[Bmcchis]

I can't disagree with this. We need to acknowledge that it's easy to sit on the sidelines and complain but wouldn't it be great if HSL could really be given a promotions and marketing overhaul?

These are tough times financially for a lot of us but I'm sure there are some who could and would contribute to HSL and who would be encouraged to do so by a really positive and targeted promo campaign which was ongoing.
Can anybody tell me who the payments are actually made i.e. On your bank statement?

[JeMeSouviens]

Couldn't agree more

There is no way that folk should be brow beaten into such a scheme and I am not advocating such a thing for a second.

There are however people who would like to or be willing to do more to help Hibs if someone would make it easier for them, communicate with them and encourage them to do so.

HSL does none of these things, in my experience it wont even reply to correspondence.

There was I believe a recent meeting, which I couldn't attend as I was out the country.

At the very least they could have reported on that and used that to drive a relaunch.

If my business was being criticised as often as HSL are on here I would engage with those criticising and find out their issues and try and engage their help or at least their ideas to do better.

Its almost as if they don't care enough to do so or aren't resourced enough to engage.

We seem to have a few figureheads lending their name to it and other than that it seems to be run with les vim and vigour than your local bowling club by folk who don't appear to have the time to do more.

It seems to be completely lacking in cohesion, structure or resource.

The prospect of any of those currently involved taking HSL's seat on the board leaves me utterly cold and afraid. (BTW for the avoidance of doubt I don't include the "figureheads" in that statement but by the same token I wouldn't want just a figurehead representing me anyway, I would want someone willing and able to do so and appropriately qualified for the task by other than their "figurehead" status)

Maybe the club put restrictions on them promoting themselves (although I cant see why they would)

I have never, not once, seen anyone or anything from HSL at ER trying to recruit new members

Even leaflets at the turnstiles would be something

IMO HSL needs to communicate better is full intentions, short medium and long term.

If it is not the vehicle to enable those who don't wish fan ownership or who want to continue funding beyond maximum fan ownership being achieved then we need to come up with one and pronto.

I wont sit back and in years to come listen to my grandchildren ask me why we seldom beat Hearts (if the worm turns again) and glibly tell them that I couldn't be bothered agitating for an organisation that would have enabled us to do so.


Fair comment, and Big_Franck.

I do agree that if we're going to have a scheme, then we should be flogging the backside off it.

[BSEJVT]

Can anybody tell me who the payments are actually made i.e. On your bank statement?

Gocardless Ltd

[Phil MaGlass]

Just an idea, maybe when the next ST release for next year comes out we can have a little tick the box on the ST form which says would you like to donate

5
10
20
30
50
Other.

Many (from what I have read) on here would like it made simpler.
Set a stall out at one of the next home games where folk can walk up and register.
Or better still put it on the club website front page. Like the annoying pop ups for Half Season Tickets.:greengrin.

[Sioux]

I can't disagree with this. We need to acknowledge that it's easy to sit on the sidelines and complain but wouldn't it be great if HSL could really be given a promotions and marketing overhaul?

These are tough times financially for a lot of us but I'm sure there are some who could and would contribute to HSL and who would be encouraged to do so by a really positive and targeted promo campaign which was ongoing.

If people want to contribute through HSL they should do so only if they want to own shares. Anything else is not within HSL's mandate. Don't confuse FOH with what we've got. FOH's remit was to take donations from fans to buy out budge, and contribute to working capital of circa £1m. They've totally ignored what the fans initially signed up to and moved the goalposts, so that those contributions could be used to fund the building of the stand. That was contrary to what FOH was set up to do, and it should be remembered that their ultimate goal was full fan ownership within 5 years from exiting administration. But as usual 'we are hertz, we'll do it our way'. If that's the way they want to operate, that's up to them.

It's been said a hundred times before, if the yams hadn't coughed up they'd be dead and buried. We didn't and don't have that gun to our heads, and that is a major factor in all of this.

But lets not get at our own club and HSL for not having a (Ponzi) scheme like they have.

[Bostonhibby]

If people want to contribute through HSL they should do so only if they want to own shares. Anything else is not within HSL's mandate. Don't confuse FOH with what we've got. FOH's remit was to take donations from fans to buy out budge, and contribute to working capital of circa £1m. They've totally ignored what the fans initially signed up to and moved the goalposts, so that those contributions could be used to fund the building of the stand. That was contrary to what FOH was set up to do, and it should be remembered that their ultimate goal was full fan ownership within 5 years from exiting administration. But as usual 'we are hertz, we'll do it our way'. If that's the way they want to operate, that's up to them.

It's been said a hundred times before, if the yams hadn't coughed up they'd be dead and buried. We didn't and don't have that gun to our heads, and that is a major factor in all of this.

But lets not get at our own club and HSL for not having a (Ponzi) scheme like they have.A great explanation of how the scheme's are entirely different.[emoji106]

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[chippy]

Things will come to a head sooner rather than later. The ownership model will have to be planned for in the event of the tailing off of the involvement of STF. Who knows what will happen when he is no longer the main owner and guarantor. We will be vulnerable to predators if the fans don’t increase their ownership stake. We simply can’t risk chancers coming along as we are I’d say quite an attractive proposition currently. Investors with good intentions and decent funds don’t grow on trees. The more fans in a membership scheme contributing regularly is the only way to stave off sharks and opportunists. With a strong membership base we’d be in a good position to negotiate with prospective investors on a shared ownership basis whilst always protecting our key assets. At the moment we’re safe but I’d say from comments above somewhat complacent. STF and possibly his family will not be around forever. Tim for transition planning and an upgraded HSL but we need to bring in all the factions who have criticised HSL as well- needs to be a unity of purpose.

[Ozyhibby]

If people want to contribute through HSL they should do so only if they want to own shares. Anything else is not within HSL's mandate. Don't confuse FOH with what we've got. FOH's remit was to take donations from fans to buy out budge, and contribute to working capital of circa £1m. They've totally ignored what the fans initially signed up to and moved the goalposts, so that those contributions could be used to fund the building of the stand. That was contrary to what FOH was set up to do, and it should be remembered that their ultimate goal was full fan ownership within 5 years from exiting administration. But as usual 'we are hertz, we'll do it our way'. If that's the way they want to operate, that's up to them.

It's been said a hundred times before, if the yams hadn't coughed up they'd be dead and buried. We didn't and don't have that gun to our heads, and that is a major factor in all of this.

But lets not get at our own club and HSL for not having a (Ponzi) scheme like they have.

FoH is no more a Ponzi scheme than HSL is. Does anyone ever look up what a Ponzi scheme is before using the term?


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[Bostonhibby]

FoH is no more a Ponzi scheme than HSL is. Does anyone ever look up what a Ponzi scheme is before using the term?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI saw the use of the term here as tongue in cheek I must admit. Especially since you're right, it's never accurately cited in relation to Hibs or the current hearts model.

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[Sioux]

Spot on sir.

[green day]

I saw the use of the term here as tongue in cheek I must admit. Especially since you're right, it's never accurately cited in relation to Hibs or the current hearts model.

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It wasn't used tongue in cheek, it was used by a group of influential (in social media terms) hibs fans with an anti Farmer agenda.

Lots of people were put off HSL at the beginning due to this.

HSL needs a crystal clear relaunch stating that 100% of the money goes to buy players etc.......please sign up here for £10, £20 whatever.

[Bostonhibby]

It wasn't used tongue in cheek, it was used by a group of influential (in social media terms) hibs fans with an anti Farmer agenda.

Lots of people were put off HSL at the beginning due to this.

HSL needs a crystal clear relaunch stating that 100% of the money goes to buy players etc.......please sign up here for £10, £20 whatever.Sorry. I meant by Sioux above.

If you look me up you'll see I was quick to point out the reality of the situation when the group you mention were bandying about the term in ignorance.

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[green day]

Sorry. I meant by Sioux above.

If you look me up you'll see I was quick to point out the reality of the situation when the group you mention were bandying about the term in ignorance.

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No bother 👍 Just back in and didn't catch up on whole thread.

I wonder if any of those people would be willing to accept they were wrong 🤔🤔

[OfficialHSL]

Note 20 Analysis of Cash flows

Hibs received £150,000 in the last financial year from the Issue of Ordinary Shares

Now I know many will be along to tell me that at least Hibs supporters or HSL own some share whereas the Gunts don't.

But on the back of respective achievements / performances of the last 3 or 4 seasons how the ****ing hell can FOH be raising virtually 10 times what we are, it is an absolute disgrace.

I know many will be along to tell me they either paid up or died and I get that.

I also get that we may never match them for that reason

But it is ridiculous the disparity.

I moan about it all the time and get criticised by many for doing so which is fair enough, the question is what can be done about it!


We do try hard not to get too involved in Supporter threads as it can easily lead to misunderstandings which are not intended, however, as this thread relates directly to HSL we hope you don't mind our participation.

Please remember that your Directors are just the same as you , ordinary supporters. We too would like to see much more financial support for our Club, particularly at what has been a difficult period. We are absolutely delighted with what our 1650 Members have been able to achieve and of course wish we could at the very least double this number. That however is up to our Supporters. We , the Supporters must decide for ourselves what we want for our Club and what ambitions we have for our Club. We don't feel HSL has failed since a very substantial sum of money has been injected into the Club and our success on the park has definitely been influenced by this money. If it helps we will respond to the other items raised on this thread.

[MyJo]

Maybe this type of reaction to HSL promotion and trying to drum up contributions from the support is what is hindering progress?

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?322938-HSL-Target-£100-000&highlight=shares

[Bostonhibby]

No bother [emoji106] Just back in and didn't catch up on whole thread.

I wonder if any of those people would be willing to accept they were wrong [emoji848][emoji848][emoji106]you probably know the answer to that one and I wouldn't fancy going round that particular circle again.

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[CapitalGreen]

We do try hard not to get too involved in Supporter threads as it can easily lead to misunderstandings which are not intended, however, as this thread relates directly to HSL we hope you don't mind our participation.

Please remember that your Directors are just the same as you , ordinary supporters. We too would like to see much more financial support for our Club, particularly at what has been a difficult period. We are absolutely delighted with what our 1650 Members have been able to achieve and of course wish we could at the very least double this number. That however is up to our Supporters. We , the Supporters must decide for ourselves what we want for our Club and what ambitions we have for our Club. We don't feel HSL has failed since a very substantial sum of money has been injected into the Club and our success on the park has definitely been influenced by this money. If it helps we will respond to the other items raised on this thread.

Hello, thanks for responding on this thread. 2 questions if I may.

1. What is happening with communication. As I mentioned earlier the website has not been updated in a very long time and the twitter account hasn't posted a tweet in nearly 2 months? Anyone looking to sign up as a new member may get the impression that this scheme is no longer running.

2. What is the current plan for the election of the new directors which is due to happen in early 2018? I believe there was possibly a meeting in September however I was out of the country and there does not appear to have been an update communicated following this.

[OfficialHSL]

HSL is amateur hour in comparison to how FOH is run.

https://www.foundationofhearts.org/

- Events every couple of months - plot ceremonies where donators receive some sort recognition for their contributions.
- A members area where you can track and adjust how much you are donating.
- A rewards scheme.
- An active an visible Chairperson.

http://hiberniansupporters.co.uk/

- The newest news item is a Youtube Video from March 2016 which has garnered 236 views.
- They haven't tweeted in 2 months.
- Nothing tangible to show for your contribution except a certificate you need to jump through hoops to receive.

Capital Green

The points you make are valid and we completely understand why you feel HSL has not performed as well as FOH.

Our respective organisations started from different positions and even now have differing objectives. The FOH spend a significant sum of money on marketing activities/initiatives and this can be justified with an income level of approx. £120,000 per month. HSL have attempted to direct as much money as possible to the Club over the last two years. At our recent AGM , Members confirmed that they would be happy to see money spent on Marketing activities and in particular a new web site. We have commissioned a Company to carry out this work and we intend to have the new site up and running very soon. Many of the administrative issues we have had in the past will be automated allowing Certificates to be issued automatically. Our brief flirtation with some kind of reward/recognition was not well received by other supporters so we have tended to stand back from that during this period. All of this can of course be changed should our Members so desire.

[OfficialHSL]

Re-launch the day after the next derby win and see if this gives it a big boost?

I am being honest I signed up for the points but have continued to pay it since.


Thank you for sticking with us even after receiving the points.

[Iain G]

Because there is and always will be a comparison staring us in the coupon.

Why should we compare with that lot?

HSL is a different beast entirely and not a way for Hearts to fund their day to day waste and keep Ann Budge in tartan blazers under some kind of guise as a fan ownership scheme.

HSL has been nicely simmering along to the point we now have 1/3 of the club in fan ownership without the pressure of a club in trouble needing financed.

[OfficialHSL]

We are doing better than them.

There's no much money in Scottish football though, and this kind of additional income would definitely make a difference, and keep us ahead of them.


Easty

You are absolutely right and we believe this is what motivates most of our active Members. While money can never guarantee success it is fair to say that it has a very significant influence, particularly if being spent wisely.

[Shore Thing]

I was surprised to read that HSL only own 11% of the shares in the club.
At the start of May 2016 (after about 1 year of operating), HSL owned 8% and this was rising very quickly - about 1% every month or so.
In the 18 months since then, we've only purchased another 3% of the club.

I'm presuming this is down to 2 factors:

HSL automatically stopping taking DD payments once folk have paid their £200 (why, when many folk would happily continue paying?)
A lack of new uptake due to non-existent marketing.

These issues need to be addressed by HSL, or Hibs.

HSL seems to be the only aspect of the club that hasn't moved forward, or embraced the optimism and ambition currently surrounding Hibs. I realise HSL is run by very busy people offering their time for free, and I'm grateful for that. However, in my opinion we're missing huge opportunities due to the seemingly lacklustre way HSL is run.

I only pay a tiny monthly amount, but I know that my money helped in a small way to directly pay for the players who won us the Scottish Cup. To me it's a no-brainer. Folk happily spend £30-50 a month to Sky or BT - paying the wages of EPL stars. Why not put a fraction of that directly towards your Hibs squad, and as a by-product safe guard the future of the club and ensure that it always remains rooted in the community.

[brog]

From reading this thread & prior it appears a bit as if HSL are damned if they do & damned if they don't. I do think however this thread has thrown up some valid concerns re communication & some good suggestions re how to get more people engaged. Personally I think a lot of it is down to the apathy side of human nature, in that many people never switch banks, utilities etc because it's too much trouble, even though they may be getting screwed. I confess partly to that as I made a one off payment to HSL, covering several years subs. However since then I've intended to set up a separate DD for myself & son & have never got round to it. Anything that makes it easier for the fans to sign up is to be welcomed IMO. However I couldn't tell you last time I heard directly from HSL & I suspect as a one off contributor I may not do so again. I believe a re-launch would be worthwhile but I have 2 suggestions;
1. Those who are members of HSL or those who join up, please don't disparage those who don't. We all have differing personal circumstances.
2. Those who don't wish to join up please don't disparage the people or the principle behind the scheme. It's Hibs fans running it for Hibs fans & for the benefit of Hibs.

[OfficialHSL]

Agree completely. This is a massive bugbear of mine too.

We are literally ahead/equal of them in every department (infrastructure, team, managerial staff,attendences, directors, Derby record, league, cups, sellable assets etc) except FOH/HSL where they are miles ahead.

If we can close this gap we can dominate for years to come. If we do not, we start each season with a significant financial disadvantage.

What can be done about this?

Lee

This is why it is so important to highlight and debate this now. At some point, in the not too distant future, the FOH funding will be directed into their football budget. The will shortly complete their agreed share of the Stadium funding and thereafter will complete the purchase of the Club. Many of their contributors have reached a point where they don't miss their monthly contribution and are likely to continue. This additional stream of income will be invaluable.

[truehibernian]

Capital Green

The points you make are valid and we completely understand why you feel HSL has not performed as well as FOH.

Our respective organisations started from different positions and even now have differing objectives. The FOH spend a significant sum of money on marketing activities/initiatives and this can be justified with an income level of approx. £120,000 per month. HSL have attempted to direct as much money as possible to the Club over the last two years. At our recent AGM , Members confirmed that they would be happy to see money spent on Marketing activities and in particular a new web site. We have commissioned a Company to carry out this work and we intend to have the new site up and running very soon. Many of the administrative issues we have had in the past will be automated allowing Certificates to be issued automatically. Our brief flirtation with some kind of reward/recognition was not well received by other supporters so we have tended to stand back from that during this period. All of this can of course be changed should our Members so desire.

Thanks for the responses and some clarity :aok:

I'm wondering why HSL don't promote itself more, especially after high profile 'milestones' such as the League Championship win, and derby wins, Scottish Cup, etc. We are now approaching the January window which is the ideal time to do some high quality (and correctly pitched) marketing. I've been thoroughly impressed with the way the club's marketing campaigns this last three years (especially season ticket campaigns) - I honestly think you need to tap into their expertise and have a slick, well co-ordinated campaign yourself. For example, and I know this may sound trivial in the grand scheme of things - but on your current site you have people who endorse and support HSL - none of them really relate to the vast support - many are political figures. Can you not get the support of high profile (dare I say celebrity) Hibs fans and really make it more contemporary ? I'm not knocking the likes of Tony Higgins and Iain Gray, etc. - however these names mean nothing to our younger support (although TH did have the best moustache in football :greengrin). It needs to appeal to a larger female support too and I honestly don't think you're embracing the success of Hibs Ladies either.

I honestly think you need to move with the times, really market yourselves better, time your promotions and marketing, and tap into an undoubted well of opportunity. It's magnificent money going back into the club and towards the team - this needs to be the focal point of your efforts to attract more members.

[CapitalGreen]

Lee

This is why it is so important to highlight and debate this now. At some point, in the not too distant future, the FOH funding will be directed into their football budget. The will shortly complete their agreed share of the Stadium funding and thereafter will complete the purchase of the Club. Many of their contributors have reached a point where they don't miss their monthly contribution and are likely to continue. This additional stream of income will be invaluable.

Exactly this. The idea of aspiring to achieve what FOH have will be dismissed by a lot of people simply because it is Hearts. If it was any other rival club our size other than them people would be clamoring for us to try and replicate the income FOH is generating for their club.

[Ozyhibby]

Exactly this. The idea of aspiring to achieve what FOH have will be dismissed by a lot of people simply because it is Hearts. If it was any other rival club our size other than them people would be clamoring for us to try and replicate the income FOH is generating for their club.

100% correct


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[RoYO!]

My 2 pence and as others have said,

The idea of fan ownership does absolutely nothing for me.

Too many chiefs, in-fighting, power struggles, politics I could go on, I have no desire to have that as the target.

I'm sure people will tell me it won't be at all like that...

[BSEJVT]

We do try hard not to get too involved in Supporter threads as it can easily lead to misunderstandings which are not intended, however, as this thread relates directly to HSL we hope you don't mind our participation.

Please remember that your Directors are just the same as you , ordinary supporters. We too would like to see much more financial support for our Club, particularly at what has been a difficult period. We are absolutely delighted with what our 1650 Members have been able to achieve and of course wish we could at the very least double this number. That however is up to our Supporters. We , the Supporters must decide for ourselves what we want for our Club and what ambitions we have for our Club. We don't feel HSL has failed since a very substantial sum of money has been injected into the Club and our success on the park has definitely been influenced by this money. If it helps we will respond to the other items raised on this thread.

Thank you for your reply

I am very grateful for your participation, I would like to see and hear a great deal more from you

I am sorry in that I cannot agree that you have not failed.

The nature of that failure and the extent and causes of it we can debate extensively and by PM or private correspondence should you wish.

The simple facts of the matter are though:

1) FOH for all the caveats and different reason supplied by you and others raise approximately 10 times what HSL do.

2) Communication is virtually non existent, promotion worse.

3) Huge tactical errors have been made in allowing this "golden period" for Hibs to slide without tapping into that feel good factor

4) There appears to be no strategy for post full share ownership continuation or even an attempt to engage the support on consultation on the topic.

5) It all seems a bit self congratulatory to me, although huge opportunities have and continue to be missed

6) It gives me no pleasure to criticise good Hibs people doing their bit but we have been down this road before and nothing has changed

7) Those guys lives must come first but there are plenty willing to share the load, contribute in one way or another yet afaik no help has ever been sought.

8) I realise that this is uncomfortable, not least for me in raising this issue in the aggressive manner I have as this isn't me, but I worry greatly that our complacency on this issue will bite us hugely in the backside in future if it isn't addressed.

[Dashing Bob S]

The Hearts scheme was a desperate gambit to save the club.Fair play, they stepped up, and it worked to extent that 'club' now constantly has their hands in the pockets of the supporters, with no realistic and viable timetable for the espoused sweetener of fan ownership. (Do they even bother to mention that over there now?)

Hibs scheme was a more ill-conciveved, half-hearted and casual, rather than desperate way of having the fans input into the club and help out with some extra cash. To that extent, it has been relatively successful.

The fact that we aren't a bunch of desperate lemmings throwing our personal money at Budge to keep the club going is not necessarily a bad thing, I'd venture to suggest. The fact of the matter is that Hearts are asking a lot from their fans, year in and year out. The joke is decidedly on them, and even for creatures as barely sentient as the Yams, it's one that's surely bound to wear thin at some point.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Just goes to show there ain’t no more effective marketing campaign for football clubs that the threat of extinction.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

To put into context (someone enlightened can do the discounted cash flow to convert to today’s money) but at its height the successful Club86 pulled in £100k.

[BSEJVT]

Lee

This is why it is so important to highlight and debate this now. At some point, in the not too distant future, the FOH funding will be directed into their football budget. The will shortly complete their agreed share of the Stadium funding and thereafter will complete the purchase of the Club. Many of their contributors have reached a point where they don't miss their monthly contribution and are likely to continue. This additional stream of income will be invaluable.

This is exactly my point in stirring this issue up

We act now to improve HSL or get left very far behind

Quite how that doesn't translate into a membership drive by HSL highlighting this rather than my ramblings you should explain

The new website must allow people to sign up online and amend their contributions / direct debit details and should IMO include member get member incentives

[Bishop Hibee]

Along with a few other posters, I have absolutely no interest in owning shares in Hibs or any other entity for that matter. If however for example, a fund was launched to build an indoor full sized pitch at East Mains if it was thought to be a good idea by Lenny etc, then I would look at contributing monthly until the money was raised to build it. I feel I pay enough a month for my ST towards funding the playing squad. I’m pretty sure the prices will increase next season too.

[Nakedmanoncrack]

Lee

This is why it is so important to highlight and debate this now. At some point, in the not too distant future, the FOH funding will be directed into their football budget. The will shortly complete their agreed share of the Stadium funding and thereafter will complete the purchase of the Club. Many of their contributors have reached a point where they don't miss their monthly contribution and are likely to continue. This additional stream of income will be invaluable.

I'm already a full member of HSL, could you tell me how to start making contributions in my son's name?
I did it for my older son, but can't remember how! Can't see anything in the FAQs, or any way of doing it as direct debit needs to be in my name, any help appreciated as i'm ready to sign up right now.

[OfficialHSL]

I'm already a full member of HSL, could you tell me how to start making contributions in my son's name?
I did it for my older son, but can't remember how! Can't see anything in the FAQs, or any way of doing it as direct debit needs to be in my name, any help appreciated as i'm ready to sign up right now.

It's fairly straightforward. Go to the "donate" page on our web site www.hiberniansupporters.co.uk and select any amount you are comfortable. Please insert your son's details as the new member but use your own bank details under the Direct Debit part. Many thanks for your continued generosity.

HSL

[Albanian Hibs]

It's fairly straightforward. Go to the "donate" page on our web site www.hiberniansupporters.co.uk and select any amount you are comfortable. Please insert your son's details as the new member but use your own bank details under the Direct Debit part. Many thanks for your continued generosity.

HSL

I cant get the website to work on my phone.

[Malthibby]

The Hearts scheme was a desperate gambit to save the club.Fair play, they stepped up, and it worked to extent that 'club' now constantly has their hands in the pockets of the supporters, with no realistic and viable timetable for the espoused sweetener of fan ownership. (Do they even bother to mention that over there now?)

Hibs scheme was a more ill-conciveved, half-hearted and casual, rather than desperate way of having the fans input into the club and help out with some extra cash. To that extent, it has been relatively successful.

The fact that we aren't a bunch of desperate lemmings throwing our personal money at Budge to keep the club going is not necessarily a bad thing, I'd venture to suggest. The fact of the matter is that Hearts are asking a lot from their fans, year in and year out. The joke is decidedly on them, and even for creatures as barely sentient as the Yams, it's one that's surely bound to wear thin at some point.


This more or less where I am (damn that faint praise..), failure is absolutely the wrong word & Hibs have absolutely benefitted from HSL.
I've happily put money in & my club's the better for it. What's not to like?
GG

[LithgaeHibby]

As an HSL supporter I understand that those running the show are Hibs supporters with busy lives just like the rest of us. I'm happy to pay knowing that the funds help the team, though I do think that an email newsletter, maybe every quarter, would help to keep donors in touch with HSL and its activities.

[Jones28]

We do try hard not to get too involved in Supporter threads as it can easily lead to misunderstandings which are not intended, however, as this thread relates directly to HSL we hope you don't mind our participation.

Please remember that your Directors are just the same as you , ordinary supporters. We too would like to see much more financial support for our Club, particularly at what has been a difficult period. We are absolutely delighted with what our 1650 Members have been able to achieve and of course wish we could at the very least double this number. That however is up to our Supporters. We , the Supporters must decide for ourselves what we want for our Club and what ambitions we have for our Club. We don't feel HSL has failed since a very substantial sum of money has been injected into the Club and our success on the park has definitely been influenced by this money. If it helps we will respond to the other items raised on this thread.

I have been interested in making contributions but, like many others, have never gotten around to it. The problem for me is that there seems to be no real drive behind the campaign. You can use the argument that because they had to Hearts supporters did in their thousands but many Hibbies would be more than happy to pay in, shares or no shares.

So why have you guys not been plastering this all over every possible media outlet?

[Mibbes Aye]

This more or less where I am (damn that faint praise..), failure is absolutely the wrong word & Hibs have absolutely benefitted from HSL.
I've happily put money in & my club's the better for it. What's not to like?
GG

I'm with you G.

HSL wasn't a crisis intervention in the way that our neighbours needed. I donate and I'm not convinced it works as well as it could but I'm satisfied that Hibs have got some benefit from it.

On the plus side, HSL can only get better in terms of engagement and comunication. There's a real potential positive here for Hibs to build on and it won't take too much to make it happen. As it stands, we've had income that's helped our player budget to some degree - like you say, what's not to like?

[Skol]

FoH worked because it really had to and credit to Hearts they have kept it going. But lets be honest those that are paying are paying over the odds for their football.

I pay more than enough being an ST holder of over 20 years standing and have also had one child for c 12 years with another who had 3 years as ST holders. I have also spent plenty on merchandise.

I wouldnt be comfortable adding another £120 per year in or more.

My view would be different if we found ourselves where Hearts were

[Bostonhibby]

This more or less where I am (damn that faint praise..), failure is absolutely the wrong word & Hibs have absolutely benefitted from HSL.
I've happily put money in & my club's the better for it. What's not to like?
GGAnd me. Never going to knock the HSL idea but some here are talking about a different, absolute funding model without total fan ownership I feel.

This is my preferred option so if people wanted to just own enough of the club to own a meaningful share and be represented at board level, or not do HSL at all then set a scheme up, move from talking to doing.

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[cabbageandribs1875]

It's fairly straightforward. Go to the "donate" page on our web site www.hiberniansupporters.co.uk (http://www.hiberniansupporters.co.uk) and select any amount you are comfortable. Please insert your son's details as the new member but use your own bank details under the Direct Debit part. Many thanks for your continued generosity.

HSL



ta for the link, i look forward to being able to click a button somewhere to find out how much i've contributed so far :agree: hopefully lots more set up DD's :flag:

[Viva_Palmeiras]

It's fairly straightforward. Go to the "donate" page on our web site www.hiberniansupporters.co.uk and select any amount you are comfortable. Please insert your son's details as the new member but use your own bank details under the Direct Debit part. Many thanks for your continued generosity.

HSL


Maybe this link could be a link/sticky on here, the bounce and official site.

When the management fund was initially debated (folks may recall the calls to raise funds to get Sparky - only £150k apparently :)) it became clear to me that there was a number of ways to invest in the club - STs, Hibernians, Stones, the Lotto, kicks for kids. We now have another vehicle to more directly invest in he club. There was the apparent demand then there seems to be the apparent demand now. It for whatever reason it didn’t really materialise then and it would seem to have peaked/plateaued for now?

Comparison with Hearts whilst understandable differs in circumstance but why not use it as a motivator to do better - I think we all aspired to that.

But what if the simple fact is we have a different profile of support that given their circumstances as such they cannot afford to contribute more? Maybe a higher percentage of the support are at periods in their lives when they have to tighten the belt (kids/caring duties - as there are more and more cuts to services - families are having to fund more or rely on charities to for example support kids on the autistic spectrum)

So whilst on one hand the answer may seem simple - market more, raise awareness, add in link/option at purchase if season ticket - but it could
be more complex. The only way to see is give it a go.

But if it doesn’t work out In great volumes of donations please don’t throw “failure” around. In the small glimpses I’ve seen through early days of
LWT I got a sense of just how much effort folks need to put in to get things off the ground. Were all in it for the same reason - love of the club. Whilst there’s always room to improve let’s work with the organisers - all to easy to sit on the sidelines and. criticise.

[Just Alf]

Thank you for your reply

I am very grateful for your participation, I would like to see and hear a great deal more from you

I am sorry in that I cannot agree that you have not failed.

The nature of that failure and the extent and causes of it we can debate extensively and by PM or private correspondence should you wish.

The simple facts of the matter are though:

1) FOH for all the caveats and different reason supplied by you and others raise approximately 10 times what HSL do.

2) Communication is virtually non existent, promotion worse.

3) Huge tactical errors have been made in allowing this "golden period" for Hibs to slide without tapping into that feel good factor

4) There appears to be no strategy for post full share ownership continuation or even an attempt to engage the support on consultation on the topic.

5) It all seems a bit self congratulatory to me, although huge opportunities have and continue to be missed

6) It gives me no pleasure to criticise good Hibs people doing their bit but we have been down this road before and nothing has changed

7) Those guys lives must come first but there are plenty willing to share the load, contribute in one way or another yet afaik no help has ever been sought.

8) I realise that this is uncomfortable, not least for me in raising this issue in the aggressive manner I have as this isn't me, but I worry greatly that our complacency on this issue will bite us hugely in the backside in future if it isn't addressed.Pretty much in broad agreement with this but (there's always a but!)

4)...

Its never intended to be full ownership. As currently designed , its 51% fan ownership, critically this is across all areas including independent shareholders as well as HSL. What that means is that someone could come along in the future and buy us and be the "owner" and make the vast majority of the day to day decisions BUT if they for example decided to sell ER and move they'd need to get HSL on board as well as a number of the independents.

HSL have also already stated that once that 51% ceiling is reached they'll canvas us contributers to see if we would like to continue on a contribution only basis into the current ring fenced team money pot.



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[Ken]

I've only read the first 20 odd posts of this thread but comparing Hearts fans contributing to FOH and Hibs fans to HSL is in no way the same. They HAVE TO do it in order to keep the club running, pay for their new stand and THEN buy out Budge with the money going TO HER. Any shares bought by Hibs fans goes to the playing squad and STF and Petrie see none of it. FACT

Would any other fans of a club of a similar club do it unless they had to??? No chance.

Anyone else still in doubt, ask yourself this question....would there be much uptake if season tickets were £600, because that is the combined price a lot of Hearts fans are paying for their season tickets and FOH donations over the season


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[LeithMike]

I think HSL is a great vehicle for ensuring the club isn't exposed to predatory and exploitative business owners like Romanov, Whyte, Green, etc and it's good to know that donations to the playing budget are actually helping prevent that by helping the club become community owned.

I do think HSL could be a lot more though and could actually be a vehicle for all Hibernian supporters to relate to the club and finance all our activities with the club to give us a convenient monthly payment.

For example:

£50 a month (£600 a year) could get you:
•Annual membership fee £20 (could be used for admin & growth)
•Season ticket £380)
•£50 shop voucher (for top)
•£100 towards acquisition of shares for HSL
•£50 towards Kick for Kids

I think a lot of people would be happy paying out a monthly amount like that knowing it would cover season ticket and other things.

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[Reaper]

I'm going to admit I don't contribute currently and I am not completely savvy in the running of HSL or the FOH.

What I would say are based on my limited understanding is the 2 are not directly comparable as they've been borne out of very different circumstances.

FOH was borne out of necessity and really a drive by a current owner who has no interest in owning and bailing out a football club for the long term. Their whole basis is to fund infrastructure projects, cover various costs and ultimately be the support beams for the club as whole in the future. At this time the 'vision' appears sound BUT there is no parameters set as to how the money is/can be spent and it is redirected according to the immediate needs of the business regardless of what that attitude is then detrimental to (look at the current playing staff/coaching set up).

HSL was set up to provide additional funds for the playing staff budget, those parameters are set and adhered to by the club currently. An additional bonus is that there is a collective share issue that is contributing to the long term goal of fans owning a majority shareholding of the club predominantly as a protective measure to prevent asset stripping and rogue financial 'tradesmen' doing long term damage.

1. If HSL was set up in the same circs as FOH then I believe we would see a very different level of contribution and attitude towards it from the Majority. In other words if we were in dire straits the fans would step up.
2. FOH appear to better at issuing some certificate or momentos/validation to their contributors as a thank you and confirming their personal effort is recognised. HSL appear to on the poorer side of this and like it or not most people want to know where their money's going and want recognition/validation for that. These small things can make a big difference to recruiting contributors.

3. And this is my main concern. The FOH has the ultimate goal to own and effectively fund the running costs of the club. All fine and well when things are rosy, what happens when things start to go wrong and we know better than any fans things in football can go south at alarming rates. People start to get disillusioned and contributions start to drop but the level of wages, costs etc don't.

If people have personal financial difficulty or if the country went into another recession, contributions will drop but again costs don't.

Also fans may own the club as a collective but who decides the parameters of how the money gets spent. FOH could set parameters around a percentage for the playing budget but when another of their stands needs an urgent upgrade do you honestly think the people in charge wouldn't consider all sources of income to fund a rebuild if it was necessary?

4. I suffered a personal tragedy this year (I posted about it a few months back, thread titled 'tears clear my blindness) but what I didn't mention is when I reached out to the club, I was sadly let down in a bad way by numerous people, including Leeanne Dempster. I'm not going to dwell on this here or go into the ins and outs as thankfully given other stories posted I seem to have been the unfortunate exception as opposed to the rule. However had I been a contributor this experience would have seen it cease immediately. I now have my ST but that's for my own pleasure as opposed to any feeling of loyalty to help the club. Sad but very true.

This adds to the previous points and shows that these contribution groups are unstable as any financial, personal experience or a bad run by the club can see them drop.

I think HSL is a good platform in its current format but agree more advertising and information needs to be forthcoming.

FOH to me if I was a contributing Hearts fan would pose more questions and concerns than answers for me just now (not a dig at the. As its commendable how they've rallied)

If anyone feels my points are not valid or my understanding isn't on point please feel free to correct me. As I said my understanding and knowledge is limited.

[OfficialHSL]

Here’s a thought.

I have no desire whatsoever to see supporters run our football club.

However give me a opportunity to tick a box for a DD at £10 a month which is exclusively for the playing budget and I’d do it tomorrow.

The failure of HSL is that there is no real desire to own shares within the fan base.

Stevie

You may find it strange but we share your view. None of the Directors of HSL want to see the Club run by supporters. Football Clubs nowadays are complicated business's and need to be run by full time Executives who know what they are doing. HSL is about achieving a meaningful ownership stake to help protect the club and simply just give the Club additional financial help. I am sure there are some supporters who share your view but unfortunately in the past this does not seemed to have turned itself into sizeable numbers. Many fans will happily tell you that they do their bit and didn't want to hand their money over for nothing. Almost three years ago the Board announced plans to facilitate providing extra financial help to the Club and at the same time giving supporters something in return. At HSL we can accommodate your proposition. Please feel free to donate to HSL and we will pass on your money to the Club and decline to take up Membership of HSL.

[OfficialHSL]

Can’t say I have been a fan of supporters owning a club. I like the idea of what another poster SC said about paying DD to help the transfer funds. I’d happily pay that!

That’s just me though and I respect others would rather own a share of the club.

The cat

We would be happy to take your donation to the Club. Go to www.hiberniansupporters.co.uk and navigate to the "donate" page.

You do not have to take up your option of ownership.

[OfficialHSL]

HSL is not the problem. Hibs fans are well aware of it's existence. People need to stop wi the attitude that it's always someone else's fault. If fans want to pay they will pay, if not..............

Sioux

Thank you for your support.

None of us are perfect and I'm sure we could have done better and we are working hard to improve on those areas. We just don't want any HSL Members feeling any sense of failure. Their donations have been superb and rest assured have made a significant difference. We would simply welcome the chance to widen things out to even more supporters.

[CropleyWasGod]

The cat

We would be happy to take your donation to the Club. Go to www.hiberniansupporters.co.uk and navigate to the "donate" page.

You do not have to take up your option of ownership.

His donation would be converted into shares, though. So, indirectly, he would be contributing to a scenario he doesn't approve of.

[SlickShoes]

The situations both clubs are in are vastly different, I give £10 a month, if we were about to go under I'd give more and i'd have my parents donating as well. As it stands I am happy to put in a tenner a month and keep that going as long as the scheme is running.

[OfficialHSL]

Wouldn't disagree with this at all

IMO part of the reason for the failure of HSL is that there is no long term plan or option to do as you suggest

That and the facts that engagement with subscribers either existing or would be and publicity are virtually nil.

It is all just such a wasted opportunity that I fear we will live to regret in the decades to come


Noted below was our Vision and Objectives Statement circulated to all Members almost two years ago.

HIBERNIAN SUPPORTERS LTD (HSL)



OUR VISION

Our long term vision is to obtain a controlling stake ( greater than 50% Shareholding) in the Club and ensure that supporters interest in their Club is protected for ever.

Our medium term vision is to acquire a meaningful ownership stake in the Club by 2020. Our minimum target is 35% shareholding.

To support the Club Board and Management in fulfilling the Club’s full potential and operating at the top tier of Scottish Football.

To develop an ownership entity ( HSL ) that adheres to the principles of community ownership and operates in a transparent and democratic manner.

For HSL to be represented on the Club Board by the end of Season 2016/2017.




HOW DO WE GET THERE (Our Objectives)

We will turn our vision into reality by :

Encouraging all fans to recognise that our Club needs to be supported in good times and bad while operating in a sustainable manner.

Achieving a membership base of 2000 members by the end of 2016 and 3000 members by the end of 2017.

Recruiting members from all sections of the Hibs supporter base. Ensuring that the membership base of HSL is representative of the wider Hibernian community.

Valuing the opinions of all fans equally and supporting at all times the principle of one member one vote.

Donating more than £500,000 to the Club by the end of 2016.

[Blaster]

The situations both clubs are in are vastly different, I give £10 a month, if we were about to go under I'd give more and i'd have my parents donating as well. As it stands I am happy to put in a tenner a month and keep that going as long as the scheme is running.

That’s exactly my view and what I do

Not for fan ownership reasons, just a wee bit extra towards player budget

[weecounty hibby]

Thing is it becomes a habit and you don't even notice the money after a while. FOH got a lot of DDs as they were facing extinction. What has happened is that these guys have just got used to giving and probably now don't even think about it. They will probably only stop if they have a major change in circumstances in their lives. I subscribe to a couple of bike magazines monty and MCN weekly, some months and weeks I don't even read them but as The DDs are set up and I don't even notice them anymore I just let them run.
If I'm being honest I completely forgot about HSL until these threads appeared. I don't really want shares in the club but would donate something monthly on top of our STs. When HSL first appeared I couldn't really afford extra but probably could now

[Nakedmanoncrack]

It's fairly straightforward. Go to the "donate" page on our web site www.hiberniansupporters.co.uk and select any amount you are comfortable. Please insert your son's details as the new member but use your own bank details under the Direct Debit part. Many thanks for your continued generosity.

HSL

I think this has illustrated some of the problems that could be holding HSL back from it's full potential, when you click on 'donate' then choose an amount it takes you directly to a page to set up a direct debit.

Only an account holder can set up a Direct Debit Instruction so I don't see how you can put a name other than the name on the bank account. So I've set up the DD but will have to get it sorted out as a membership for my son rather than a top-up to my already paid-up membership later.

There's also the issue of the website not working on phones .

It really needs to be made as easy & simple as possible for people to sign up, unfortunately it currently isn't.

[RIP]

My 2 pence and as others have said,

The idea of fan ownership does absolutely nothing for me.

Too many chiefs, in-fighting, power struggles, politics I could go on, I have no desire to have that as the target.

I'm sure people will tell me it won't be at all like that...

Are you aware that Hibs have been fan owned and fan run almost the whole time since 1875? Along with 95% of clubs the world over.

The Romanov and conglomerate models never work. The only sustainable model is fan owned and run.

Not saying Tom and Rod were fans 25 years ago mind you. But theyve both been living and breathing Hibs for many years. Brian, Bruce, Amanda, Steven, Colin, Garry - all directors I've met in the last decade - huge Hibbies all.

[Not In The Know]

they even stopped taking my direct debit.

[FranckSuzy]

For those of you willing to pay towards the playing fund with no return, Leith Links does that and it also gets kids along to games.

:aok: :greengrin


Is there a way to find out the difference between what they and hsl put into the club last year?

Not sure of the HSL figure (I haven't read the whole thread, if it was even mentioned :wink:) but LL contributed 269 x £75 = £20,175 last season :aok:



Mikey, with massive respect to LL on what it achieves and as a contributor there comes a point where having kids ST’s every weekend costs the club money when it comes around to “sell out games”

One for the fans reps..on the next ST renewal form put an option tick a box for £10 per month DD and let’s see if there’s an appetite.

Or email out to all ST holders now with a message from
NL and a link to sign up.

That's a fair comment. I did suggest a 'Category B' season to avoid this issue but the Club decided on a cap on the numbers meantime.

[FranckSuzy]

I think the club have now "capped" the number of tickets leithlinks can buy.

Sent from my SM-J320FN using Tapatalk

:agree:


Its not quite as simple as that any more Mikey

Hibs have had to cap the number of KFK tickets available and I believe (Suzy will confirm one way or another) that we currently subscribe more than there are tickets available to buy

That is correct. 300 KfK STs was the quoted number but that also includes those who purchase the tickets direct from the Club, so it left 189 for Leith Links. Hopefully there will be some movement next season though :aok:

[NAE NOOKIE]

Noted below was our Vision and Objectives Statement circulated to all Members almost two years ago.

HIBERNIAN SUPPORTERS LTD (HSL)



OUR VISION

Our long term vision is to obtain a controlling stake ( greater than 50% Shareholding) in the Club and ensure that supporters interest in their Club is protected for ever.

Our medium term vision is to acquire a meaningful ownership stake in the Club by 2020. Our minimum target is 35% shareholding.

To support the Club Board and Management in fulfilling the Club’s full potential and operating at the top tier of Scottish Football.

To develop an ownership entity ( HSL ) that adheres to the principles of community ownership and operates in a transparent and democratic manner.

For HSL to be represented on the Club Board by the end of Season 2016/2017.




HOW DO WE GET THERE (Our Objectives)

We will turn our vision into reality by :

Encouraging all fans to recognise that our Club needs to be supported in good times and bad while operating in a sustainable manner.

Achieving a membership base of 2000 members by the end of 2016 and 3000 members by the end of 2017.

Recruiting members from all sections of the Hibs supporter base. Ensuring that the membership base of HSL is representative of the wider Hibernian community.

Valuing the opinions of all fans equally and supporting at all times the principle of one member one vote.

Donating more than £500,000 to the Club by the end of 2016.

Please see the part I have highlighted in the 'our vision' part of the statement.

I have asked this question several times on here and have never received a satisfactory answer. If HSL along with individual shareholders owns more than 50% of the club it seems obvious to me that we will never be able to attract a rich benefactor to the club ... as someone on here very cleverly put it, in the eyes of a prospective owner 'it would be like buying a telly and giving somebody else the remote control'

That being the case, exactly what is HSL's vision for the future running of the club when 51% control is in the hands of the fans? STF will still be the largest shareholder, but what are his plans for those shares? HSL will be the 2nd biggest shareholder whatever happens, but until the plan for STF's holding is known how can you have any idea how the club will be run? and if you don't shouldn't you be looking into this BEFORE the event.

My main concern is that according to the club there are currently 2,400 shareholders 'including HSL' .... I do not know if that includes HSL as a single shareholder or if all HSL's individual contributors are included in the figure. Lets look on the bright side and say the 2,400 figure does include HSL as a single entity, in which case 2,400 individual shareholders and 1,600 HSL members equals 4,000 shareholders in total.

In my scenario STF's shares haven't been sold following his passing because they are of no interest to anybody because they wont add up to being 'owner' of Hibernian Football Club, so they are sitting gathering dust in the family bank vault, owned by a family who by this time have no interest in pumping any of their wealth into Hibs, not even to the point of acting as guarantor for loans or credit as STF has done so often.

Say then 'fan owned' Hibs are faced with needing to raise say two million pounds due to some unforeseen situation, or perhaps because ST sales have taken a sudden big dip ..and say in that scenario we have no player on the books worth anything like two million quid we can sell.

Without a sugar daddy owner willing to pump his, her or their personal wealth into the club, where will that two million quid come from? Will the board of Hibs be asking the 4000 shareholders to come up with an average of £500 each at short notice? If that's not the case where will this 'fan owned' football club get the money from?

Even worse ... If that 2,400 figure does include every individual HSL member you would be looking at an average contribution from each shareholder of £833.

Well? :I'm waiti .... Because without a satisfactory answer to these questions in all honesty the thought of overall fan control of the club gives me the bloody fear.

[CropleyWasGod]

Please see the part I have highlighted in the 'our vision' part of the statement.

I have asked this question several times on here and have never received a satisfactory answer. If HSL along with individual shareholders owns more than 50% of the club it seems obvious to me that we will never be able to attract a rich benefactor to the club ... as someone on here very cleverly put it, in the eyes of a prospective owner 'it would be like buying a telly and giving somebody else the remote control'

That being the case, exactly what is HSL's vision for the future running of the club when 51% control is in the hands of the fans? STF will still be the largest shareholder, but what are his plans for those shares? HSL will be the 2nd biggest shareholder whatever happens, but until the plan for STF's holding is known how can you have any idea how the club will be run? and if you don't shouldn't you be looking into this BEFORE the event.

My main concern is that according to the club there are currently 2,400 shareholders 'including HSL' .... I do not know if that includes HSL as a single shareholder or if all HSL's individual contributors are included in the figure. Lets look on the bright side and say the 2,400 figure does include HSL as a single entity, in which case 2,400 individual shareholders and 1,600 HSL members equals 4,000 shareholders in total.

In my scenario STF's shares haven't been sold following his passing because they are of no interest to anybody because they wont add up to being 'owner' of Hibernian Football Club, so they are sitting gathering dust in the family bank vault, owned by a family who by this time have no interest in pumping any of their wealth into Hibs, not even to the point of acting as guarantor for loans or credit as STF has done so often.

Say then 'fan owned' Hibs are faced with needing to raise say two million pounds due to some unforeseen situation, or perhaps because ST sales have taken a sudden big dip ..and say in that scenario we have no player on the books worth anything like two million quid we can sell.

Without a sugar daddy owner willing to pump his, her or their personal wealth into the club, where will that two million quid come from? Will the board of Hibs be asking the 4000 shareholders to come up with an average of £500 each at short notice? If that's not the case where will this 'fan owned' football club get the money from?

Even worse ... If that 2,400 figure does include every individual HSL member you would be looking at an average contribution from each shareholder of £833.

Well? :I'm waiti .... Because without a satisfactory answer to these questions in all honesty the thought of overall fan control of the club gives me the bloody fear.I'd like to think that we would have a Board in place who would be able to, partially at least, sense those events coming. In that light, they would have the opportunity and sense to take the appropriate action.

That action, of course, might be to take out external finance. A company with substantial unencumbered assets, with (by that time, hopefully) no debt, would be a decent proposition for a lender.

In short, we'd be doing what most companies have to do and living in the real world, within our means.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[chippy]

Please see the part I have highlighted in the 'our vision' part of the statement.

I have asked this question several times on here and have never received a satisfactory answer. If HSL along with individual shareholders owns more than 50% of the club it seems obvious to me that we will never be able to attract a rich benefactor to the club ... as someone on here very cleverly put it, in the eyes of a prospective owner 'it would be like buying a telly and giving somebody else the remote control'

That being the case, exactly what is HSL's vision for the future running of the club when 51% control is in the hands of the fans? STF will still be the largest shareholder, but what are his plans for those shares? HSL will be the 2nd biggest shareholder whatever happens, but until the plan for STF's holding is known how can you have any idea how the club will be run? and if you don't shouldn't you be looking into this BEFORE the event.

My main concern is that according to the club there are currently 2,400 shareholders 'including HSL' .... I do not know if that includes HSL as a single shareholder or if all HSL's individual contributors are included in the figure. Lets look on the bright side and say the 2,400 figure does include HSL as a single entity, in which case 2,400 individual shareholders and 1,600 HSL members equals 4,000 shareholders in total.

In my scenario STF's shares haven't been sold following his passing because they are of no interest to anybody because they wont add up to being 'owner' of Hibernian Football Club, so they are sitting gathering dust in the family bank vault, owned by a family who by this time have no interest in pumping any of their wealth into Hibs, not even to the point of acting as guarantor for loans or credit as STF has done so often.

Say then 'fan owned' Hibs are faced with needing to raise say two million pounds due to some unforeseen situation, or perhaps because ST sales have taken a sudden big dip ..and say in that scenario we have no player on the books worth anything like two million quid we can sell.

Without a sugar daddy owner willing to pump his, her or their personal wealth into the club, where will that two million quid come from? Will the board of Hibs be asking the 4000 shareholders to come up with an average of £500 each at short notice? If that's not the case where will this 'fan owned' football club get the money from?

Even worse ... If that 2,400 figure does include every individual HSL member you would be looking at an average contribution from each shareholder of £833.

Well? :I'm waiti .... Because without a satisfactory answer to these questions in all honesty the thought of overall fan control of the club gives me the bloody fear.

Im not fearful of fan ownership that you and others are expressing but you do paint a likely possible scenario. My hope is that we can all find some common ground to enable us to deal with the lack of a sugar daddy/ rich possibly balmy new investor. I’d much rather trust in the mass of our fan base albeit the management of the club needs to be professional and allowed to manage.
How can we bring the pro, sceptical, anti, yet to be convinced there is a problem together, together so we can amass a much larger contribution to HSL?

[Nakedmanoncrack]

Its not quite as simple as that any more Mikey

Hibs have had to cap the number of KFK tickets available and I believe (Suzy will confirm one way or another) that we currently subscribe more than there are tickets available to buy

People give to Kicks for Kids / Leith Links with good intentions, but I don't think the scheme when launched by the club was ever envisaged to take up hundreds of seats which could be sold at full price. I've asked before if all the tickets get used at every game as it could be a possible explanation of some of the vast number of empty seats in sold out stands (FF in particular) still don't know the answer. Also where are these seats situated? Are they prime seats which again the paying supporter might want the chance to sit in. As I said, the motives behind the scheme & those who collect for Leith Links are highly commendable, but due to its success the numbers seem way out of proportion for what you'd expect in a stadium with only c.16,000 seats for home supporters.

[CB_NO3]

We are doing better than them just now because they are failing massively in their recruitment. That won’t always be the case. In the long run, clubs with more to spend do better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That theory is bollocks. We have had a top 4/5 Scottish budget ovet the last 20 years and have achieved nothing really.

[BSEJVT]

Interesting debate on this thread which was the entire point of it, with a deliberately provocative title and input on my part.

I get entirely that many people aren't interested in fan ownership, I am not either as a principle but there is middle ground.

What I would like is for the magical 26% of the share holding to be held in a fans trust (as opposed to individual shares as you can never be sure who is buying them and in what quantities)

If we could achieve that then we could say with certainty that the club could never ever be taken away from us as Wallet tried to do.

I get entirely that folk would want to buy their own shares too, I have, but I have and also want HSL to get to that 26% and the sooner the better and for that reason contribute to HSL despite my reservations about fan ownership.

What though is fan ownership really, I suspect we will see very little difference, the principle one being that the directors will be nominated pretty much equally by STF's 49% and then by independent / HSL shareholders 51%.

For that reason alone it is in my view critical that HSL acquire 26% to guarantee that they can prevent anything that is against the supporters interests.

Some will argue with some justification that the individual shareholders would deal with that, right now I couldn't say who owned the shares or in what quantities and wouldn't be prepared to trust to luck that it would all work out okay in the end.

It's not for me to tell folk what to do but the clear direction of travel for the club is to have 51% of the shares fan owned and I would really encourage folk who don't want fan ownership to recognise that it will happen and contribute accordingly to protect the club's future as I have outlined above,

When that 26% is reached I will quite happily cease contributing to HSL and we can then find a way to redirect those contributions direct to the club, but 26% is very much the target IMO.

[Jack]

Please see the part I have highlighted in the 'our vision' part of the statement.

I have asked this question several times on here and have never received a satisfactory answer. If HSL along with individual shareholders owns more than 50% of the club it seems obvious to me that we will never be able to attract a rich benefactor to the club ... as someone on here very cleverly put it, in the eyes of a prospective owner 'it would be like buying a telly and giving somebody else the remote control'

That being the case, exactly what is HSL's vision for the future running of the club when 51% control is in the hands of the fans? STF will still be the largest shareholder, but what are his plans for those shares? HSL will be the 2nd biggest shareholder whatever happens, but until the plan for STF's holding is known how can you have any idea how the club will be run? and if you don't shouldn't you be looking into this BEFORE the event.

My main concern is that according to the club there are currently 2,400 shareholders 'including HSL' .... I do not know if that includes HSL as a single shareholder or if all HSL's individual contributors are included in the figure. Lets look on the bright side and say the 2,400 figure does include HSL as a single entity, in which case 2,400 individual shareholders and 1,600 HSL members equals 4,000 shareholders in total.

In my scenario STF's shares haven't been sold following his passing because they are of no interest to anybody because they wont add up to being 'owner' of Hibernian Football Club, so they are sitting gathering dust in the family bank vault, owned by a family who by this time have no interest in pumping any of their wealth into Hibs, not even to the point of acting as guarantor for loans or credit as STF has done so often.

Say then 'fan owned' Hibs are faced with needing to raise say two million pounds due to some unforeseen situation, or perhaps because ST sales have taken a sudden big dip ..and say in that scenario we have no player on the books worth anything like two million quid we can sell.

Without a sugar daddy owner willing to pump his, her or their personal wealth into the club, where will that two million quid come from? Will the board of Hibs be asking the 4000 shareholders to come up with an average of £500 each at short notice? If that's not the case where will this 'fan owned' football club get the money from?

Even worse ... If that 2,400 figure does include every individual HSL member you would be looking at an average contribution from each shareholder of £833.

Well? :I'm waiti .... Because without a satisfactory answer to these questions in all honesty the thought of overall fan control of the club gives me the bloody fear.

A possible scenario Nookie is ...

Once HSL have bought all the shares they are able to they will keep collecting money and become the lender of last resort.

If we (the club) have cash flow problems or the board need a few quid to buy the next SJM then they would chat with the HSL board and they would decide whether to lend it or gift it in the same way as STF does now.

Of course exactly how that worked would be up to the members of HSL.

It's not too fanciful, many including myself would be happy to continue contributing and how knows, those saying they don't want anything to do with shares might join in.

[Arch Stanton]

NN -
There are apparently 2000 or so companies listed in the London stock exchange - none of which are in any kind of a sweat because they don't have a single big controlling interest to act as sugar daddy in the event of them being suddenly landed with some totally unexpected bill.

So, who's right, you or them?

[CropleyWasGod]

NN -
There are apparently 2000 or so companies listed in the London stock exchange - none of which are in any kind of a sweat because they don't have a single big controlling interest to act as sugar daddy in the event of them being suddenly landed with some totally unexpected bill.

So, who's right, you or them?There's a culture that has evolved in football that assumes every club needs its sole support, its "sugar daddy". Whilst that's understandable, it's not particularly healthy. The notion of being a plaything, which in most cases is the reality, doesn't make for sound long-term strategy.

Whilst we have benefitted from that in the past, we are slowly evolving and moving away from that. The idea of living in the real world, commercially and strategically, is IMO a welcome development. It's not without its dangers, of course, but we have a regime in place that will recognise them and make the appropriate arrangements.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Arch Stanton]

There's a culture that has evolved in football that assumes every club needs its sole support, its "sugar daddy". Whilst that's understandable, it's not particularly healthy. The notion of being a plaything, which in most cases is the reality, doesn't make for sound long-term strategy.

Whilst we have benefitted from that in the past, we are slowly evolving and moving away from that. The idea of living in the real world, commercially and strategically, is IMO a welcome development. It's not without its dangers, of course, but we have a regime in place that will recognise them and make the appropriate arrangements.



Indeed, and in addition we also have a big source of funds waiting in the wings - witness FOH who stood up to the plate when Hearts were close to the edge.

And looking at this thread shows that there is a willingness to give extra support for the club and that such willingness would only increase if the club were in any kind of peril.

[FranckSuzy]

People give to Kicks for Kids / Leith Links with good intentions, but I don't think the scheme when launched by the club was ever envisaged to take up hundreds of seats which could be sold at full price. I've asked before if all the tickets get used at every game as it could be a possible explanation of some of the vast number of empty seats in sold out stands (FF in particular) still don't know the answer. Also where are these seats situated? Are they prime seats which again the paying supporter might want the chance to sit in. As I said, the motives behind the scheme & those who collect for Leith Links are highly commendable, but due to its success the numbers seem way out of proportion for what you'd expect in a stadium with only c.16,000 seats for home supporters.

Apologies, I thought I'd answered you previously. The KfK STs are all situated in the East, section 37/38 IIRC.

If tickets are not picked up, Hibs contact the groups concerned in case they can't use their allocation but they reallocate on the Fri night/Sat morning wherever possible so the tickets aren't wasted :aok:

[Mr White]

People give to Kicks for Kids / Leith Links with good intentions, but I don't think the scheme when launched by the club was ever envisaged to take up hundreds of seats which could be sold at full price. I've asked before if all the tickets get used at every game as it could be a possible explanation of some of the vast number of empty seats in sold out stands (FF in particular) still don't know the answer. Also where are these seats situated? Are they prime seats which again the paying supporter might want the chance to sit in. As I said, the motives behind the scheme & those who collect for Leith Links are highly commendable, but due to its success the numbers seem way out of proportion for what you'd expect in a stadium with only c.16,000 seats for home supporters.

It's less than 2%. That seems very much in proportion to me.

[BSEJVT]

Indeed, and in addition we also have a big source of funds waiting in the wings - witness FOH who stood up to the plate when Hearts were close to the edge.

And looking at this thread shows that there is a willingness to give extra support for the club and that such willingness would only increase if the club were in any kind of peril.

Sorry I cant agree

That support would increase in some part now if we could get HSL motoring, a lot of folk don't contribute to HSL as no-one has ever asked them or made it easy for them

What you are saying in the bit I have highlighted in bold is we would firstly go through death by a thousand cuts and then right at the moment of expiry the cavalry would come riding over the hill to the rescue.

I am 55 years old, for most of my adult life Hearts have had the upper hand through their financial doping.

Unless we get our act together we will hand them it back as we fiddle whilst Rome burns whilst waiting for that crisis point to galvanise us into action once more.

We could reasonably have used ignorance of the situation in the pre Mercer crisis, but that's not an argument we can use now. It is there for all to see but too many are seduced by our recent successes into thinking it will be all right on the night. If our history tells us one thing it is that it definitely wont be.

FFS why cant we realise there is an issue looming and band together now to address it before we reach that crisis.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

There's a culture that has evolved in football that assumes every club needs its sole support, its "sugar daddy". Whilst that's understandable, it's not particularly healthy. The notion of being a plaything, which in most cases is the reality, doesn't make for sound long-term strategy.

Whilst we have benefitted from that in the past, we are slowly evolving and moving away from that. The idea of living in the real world, commercially and strategically, is IMO a welcome development. It's not without its dangers, of course, but we have a regime in place that will recognise them and make the appropriate arrangements.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

It’s also worth noting that one particular “sugar daddy”s “contribution” is in the form of a loan which I believe extends towards the billon(s) - wonder the extent to which Chelski should be concerned...

[Arch Stanton]

Sorry I cant agree

That support would increase in some part now if we could get HSL motoring, a lot of folk don't contribute to HSL as no-one has ever asked them or made it easy for them

What you are saying in the bit I have highlighted in bold is we would firstly go through death by a thousand cuts and then right at the moment of expiry the cavalry would come riding over the hill to the rescue.

I am 55 years old, for most of my adult life Hearts have had the upper hand through their financial doping.

Unless we get our act together we will hand them it back as we fiddle whilst Rome burns whilst waiting for that crisis point to galvanise us into action once more.

We could reasonably have used ignorance of the situation in the pre Mercer crisis, but that's not an argument we can use now. It is there for all to see but too many are seduced by our recent successes into thinking it will be all right on the night. If our history tells us one thing it is that it definitely wont be.

FFS why cant we realise there is an issue looming and band together now to address it before we reach that crisis.

Funny thing is, I totally agree the we should be doing better at garnering funds from fans (and by we of course I mean someone else, as I suspect you do too).

That is a totally different argument from saying that fan ownerhship has a downside of increasing risk to the club, and this is what I was arguing against.

[BSEJVT]

I was surprised to read that HSL only own 11% of the shares in the club.
At the start of May 2016 (after about 1 year of operating), HSL owned 8% and this was rising very quickly - about 1% every month or so.
In the 18 months since then, we've only purchased another 3% of the club.

I'm presuming this is down to 2 factors:

HSL automatically stopping taking DD payments once folk have paid their £200 (why, when many folk would happily continue paying?)
A lack of new uptake due to non-existent marketing.

These issues need to be addressed by HSL, or Hibs.

HSL seems to be the only aspect of the club that hasn't moved forward, or embraced the optimism and ambition currently surrounding Hibs. I realise HSL is run by very busy people offering their time for free, and I'm grateful for that. However, in my opinion we're missing huge opportunities due to the seemingly lacklustre way HSL is run.

I only pay a tiny monthly amount, but I know that my money helped in a small way to directly pay for the players who won us the Scottish Cup. To me it's a no-brainer. Folk happily spend £30-50 a month to Sky or BT - paying the wages of EPL stars. Why not put a fraction of that directly towards your Hibs squad, and as a by-product safe guard the future of the club and ensure that it always remains rooted in the community.


I think its easy to forget that new shares are being created for the HSL and direct share ownership purchase monies and that is exactly as it should be.

It was done this way to ensure that the monies received from these sources went to the club and WERE NOT USED to buy shares from STF in which case the monies would have went to him.

What these purchases of shares do is to reduce the percentage of the issued shares which he owns and this is again exactly what he and we are seeking to achieve.

This has an effect which explains why the rate of HSL ownership slows down even if contributions remain at the same level.

To explain:

Day 1

A company has 10 shares 2 are issued and 8 are available for purchase.

The issued shares are owned 1 each by A & B who each own 50% of the business

Day 2

C Buys 1 new share

The shares are now owned by A, B & C who each own 33.33% of the business

What we can see from this is that without doing anything at all A & B's percentage ownership share of the business has fallen

Therefore we can tell that every time more of the remaining 7 shares are purchased (up until all the shares are purchased) the existing shareholders ownership percentage is diluted as it is measured against ISSUED shares.

If the remaining 7 shares were sold to D, E, F, G, H, I & J then each share holder would own 10% of the company

What you are probably seeing is a scenario where HSL owned x % of the issued shares at one point in time

This percentage fell back slightly as more shares were sold and then grew back and beyond the initial level as HSL purchased more and more shares, giving the appearance of little progress in percentage terms where the actual number of shares purchased increases substantially.

As there have been no further direct share issues, even HSL being the only share purchaser in the market would have the effect of increasing the number of issued shares and therefore the shares it itself purchased would not automatically increase its percentage ownership by the same sum.

HSL will unquestionably own more actual shares in number than it did but as that number of shares is part of a larger number of shares in total percentage growth has appeared to stagnate.

This is a completely foreseen circumstance and will continue to be the case until all the shares are purchased at which time ownership percentages will fix.

Hope this helps

[BSEJVT]

Funny thing is, I totally agree the we should be doing better at garnering funds from fans (and by we of course I mean someone else, as I suspect you do too).

That is a totally different argument from saying that fan ownerhship has a downside of increasing risk to the club, and this is what I was arguing against.

Thanks apologies for the misunderstanding

I am quite happy to play a part in helping recruit new members, I would be an utter charlatan if I wasn't.

Whether that part is manning a desk in a concourse pre-game to explain HSL or to help recruit new members or something else I don't mind

Obviously it needs to fit in around work and family commitments, but that's the same for everyone.

It goes without saying that it needs to be directed by and sanctioned by HSL

[JeMeSouviens]

NN -
There are apparently 2000 or so companies listed in the London stock exchange - none of which are in any kind of a sweat because they don't have a single big controlling interest to act as sugar daddy in the event of them being suddenly landed with some totally unexpected bill.

So, who's right, you or them?

I would've thought a sugar daddy potentially makes you more vulnerable rather than less. If the daddy suddenly disappears and nobody else is willing or able to provide the funds that the club is now commited to, they are in the ****, no paddle.

See Vlad, Brooks Mileson, etc.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Thanks to folk who responded to my post .... still waiting on HSL to though :greengrin

I understand that folk see the concept of controlling fan ownership as the ideal scenario .... but nobody can deny that will pretty well forever close the door on a wealthy individual or other entity putting money into the club.

Surely the end game is to challenge the likes of Celtic, Sevco and Aberdeen ..... None of these clubs is looking at a fan ownership model as a current goal and like it or not I doubt the Hibs fanbase is big enough for it to pump in the kind of money that will enable us to compete with at least Aberdeen financially .... we can look at FOH as an example of what money can be raised, but even the amount they put in is peanuts in the grand scheme of things ... They don't own Hearts, but what they contribute is an example of how it might work if a club is fan owned. How are Hearts doing on the back of that on the pitch? Going downhill rapidly as far as I can see, with an owner who has neither the financial clout or willingness to put her own money into the team.

I am not saying a fan owned club cant survive and even thrive in its own way ..... but how do we make inroads into the league dominance of the bigger privately owned clubs when our income is solely dependent on commercial activities and fans money? In this scenario I will be interested to see how the romantic ideal measures up when the board turn round and say we cant afford to spend £100,000 on a goalscorer as we plummet down the league ... how does it work when the disgruntled fans start having a go at the board and the board say 'well you own the club, not us' you have to come up with the money?

[Golden Bear]

Thanks to folk who responded to my post .... still waiting on HSL to though :greengrin

I understand that folk see the concept of controlling fan ownership as the ideal scenario .... but nobody can deny that will pretty well forever close the door on a wealthy individual or other entity putting money into the club.

Surely the end game is to challenge the likes of Celtic, Sevco and Aberdeen ..... None of these clubs is looking at a fan ownership model as a current goal and like it or not I doubt the Hibs fanbase is big enough for it to pump in the kind of money that will enable us to compete with at least Aberdeen financially .... we can look at FOH as an example of what money can be raised, but even the amount they put in is peanuts in the grand scheme of things ... They don't own Hearts, but what they contribute is an example of how it might work if a club is fan owned. How are Hearts doing on the back of that on the pitch? Going downhill rapidly as far as I can see, with an owner who has neither the financial clout or willingness to put her own money into the team.

I am not saying a fan owned club cant survive and even thrive in its own way ..... but how do we make inroads into the league dominance of the bigger privately owned clubs when our income is solely dependent on commercial activities and fans money? In this scenario I will be interested to see how the romantic ideal measures up when the board turn round and say we cant afford to spend £100,000 on a goalscorer as we plummet down the league ... how does it work when the disgruntled fans start having a go at the board and the board say 'well you own the club, not us' you have to come up with the money?

:top marks

[Ozyhibby]

Thanks to folk who responded to my post .... still waiting on HSL to though :greengrin

I understand that folk see the concept of controlling fan ownership as the ideal scenario .... but nobody can deny that will pretty well forever close the door on a wealthy individual or other entity putting money into the club.

Surely the end game is to challenge the likes of Celtic, Sevco and Aberdeen ..... None of these clubs is looking at a fan ownership model as a current goal and like it or not I doubt the Hibs fanbase is big enough for it to pump in the kind of money that will enable us to compete with at least Aberdeen financially .... we can look at FOH as an example of what money can be raised, but even the amount they put in is peanuts in the grand scheme of things ... They don't own Hearts, but what they contribute is an example of how it might work if a club is fan owned. How are Hearts doing on the back of that on the pitch? Going downhill rapidly as far as I can see, with an owner who has neither the financial clout or willingness to put her own money into the team.

I am not saying a fan owned club cant survive and even thrive in its own way ..... but how do we make inroads into the league dominance of the bigger privately owned clubs when our income is solely dependent on commercial activities and fans money? In this scenario I will be interested to see how the romantic ideal measures up when the board turn round and say we cant afford to spend £100,000 on a goalscorer as we plummet down the league ... how does it work when the disgruntled fans start having a go at the board and the board say 'well you own the club, not us' you have to come up with the money?

I’m not sure why you don’t think we can catch Aberdeen when we get higher attendances? I know they have a freakishly high turnover compared to their attendances (never seen it explained why) but surely it’s up to us to close that gap?
If the league had proper FFP rules then there would be no need for. Sugar daddy at any club.


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[7Hero]

Here’s a thought.

I have no desire whatsoever to see supporters run our football club.

However give me a opportunity to tick a box for a DD at £10 a month which is exclusively for the playing budget and I’d do it tomorrow.

The failure of HSL is that there is no real desire to own shares within the fan base.


Equally there is no desire from the owner / board / Football Club to push the ownership. Evident by the lack of activity you see.

"well i said i would let the fans buy into the club , thats what they wanted, what else can i do ?" - Sir Tom Farmer (future quote)

all just a bit of pr ?

[Bighoose]

I am not saying a fan owned club cant survive and even thrive in its own way ..... but how do we make inroads into the league dominance of the bigger privately owned clubs when our income is solely dependent on commercial activities and fans money? In this scenario I will be interested to see how the romantic ideal measures up when the board turn round and say we cant afford to spend £100,000 on a goalscorer as we plummet down the league ... how does it work when the disgruntled fans start having a go at the board and the board say 'well you own the club, not us' you have to come up with the money?

Suppose it will work the same as when the unscrupulous sole owner decides to have a firesale of all our best players prior to running off with the cash.

"You fans can complain all you want but I own the club and I dont have to splash any cash if I dont want to." :dunno:

What we need is the ideal sugar daddy who is willing to splash the cash, but isnt bothered about owning the club outright.

Maybe we should all pay a pound each week and Rod can buy hunners of lottery tickets. Any winnings go to the club.

[CropleyWasGod]

Thanks to folk who responded to my post .... still waiting on HSL to though :greengrin

I understand that folk see the concept of controlling fan ownership as the ideal scenario .... but nobody can deny that will pretty well forever close the door on a wealthy individual or other entity putting money into the club.

Surely the end game is to challenge the likes of Celtic, Sevco and Aberdeen ..... None of these clubs is looking at a fan ownership model as a current goal and like it or not I doubt the Hibs fanbase is big enough for it to pump in the kind of money that will enable us to compete with at least Aberdeen financially .... we can look at FOH as an example of what money can be raised, but even the amount they put in is peanuts in the grand scheme of things ... They don't own Hearts, but what they contribute is an example of how it might work if a club is fan owned. How are Hearts doing on the back of that on the pitch? Going downhill rapidly as far as I can see, with an owner who has neither the financial clout or willingness to put her own money into the team.

I am not saying a fan owned club cant survive and even thrive in its own way ..... but how do we make inroads into the league dominance of the bigger privately owned clubs when our income is solely dependent on commercial activities and fans money? In this scenario I will be interested to see how the romantic ideal measures up when the board turn round and say we cant afford to spend £100,000 on a goalscorer as we plummet down the league ... how does it work when the disgruntled fans start having a go at the board and the board say 'well you own the club, not us' you have to come up with the money?

As has been suggested, we consider external finance. We are, and will continue to be, a more attractive proposition for lending than most clubs.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Suppose it will work the same as when the unscrupulous sole owner decides to have a firesale of all our best players prior to running off with the cash.

"You fans can complain all you want but I own the club and I dont have to splash any cash if I dont want to." :dunno:

What we need is the ideal sugar daddy who is willing to splash the cash, but isnt bothered about owning the club outright.

Maybe we should all pay a pound each week and Rod can buy hunners of lottery tickets. Any winnings go to the club.

As much chance of that happening as me turning out at right back for Hibs this Saturday.

This goes exactly towards what I and it would appear a lot of other fans ( on here at least ) see as the ideal scenario when it comes to fans owning shares in the club. Fans do not need to have majority control of the club in order to be able to spike the guns of asset strippers, a shareholding of less than 40% would still give the fans enough clout to stop a rogue owner doing what appears to have been done to the likes of Blackpool FC.

Most folk ( not all ) who want to buy a football club and with the money to do it are driven by their ego ... the biggest thing to them is to be able to say they own the club, and with a controlling interest of over 50% they can do that. If the fans own 51% we can wave bye bye to any rich individual putting their own money into the club.

And before anybody quotes Germany .... that's entirely different, we are not Germany.

[Ozyhibby]

As much chance of that happening as me turning out at right back for Hibs this Saturday.

This goes exactly towards what I and it would appear a lot of other fans ( on here at least ) see as the ideal scenario when it comes to fans owning shares in the club. Fans do not need to have majority control of the club in order to be able to spike the guns of asset strippers, a shareholding of less than 40% would still give the fans enough clout to stop a rogue owner doing what appears to have been done to the likes of Blackpool FC.

Most folk ( not all ) who want to buy a football club and with the money to do it are driven by their ego ... the biggest thing to them is to be able to say they own the club, and with a controlling interest of over 50% they can do that. If the fans own 51% we can wave bye bye to any rich individual putting their own money into the club.

And before anybody quotes Germany .... that's entirely different, we are not Germany.

I can’t think of many cases where a rich individual has put money into a club that I have not found it to be either distasteful source or it has ended badly and usually both.


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[brog]

That theory is bollocks. We have had a top 4/5 Scottish budget ovet the last 20 years and have achieved nothing really.

We've won 2 cups in the last 10 years, that's never happened in our history before. As for the theory being bollocks there's been many studies done to prove the correlation between spend & success. At one point, about 3 or 4 years ago the top 6 or 7 clubs in the EPL matched exactly the top 6 or 7 clubs by spend. Chelsea hadn't won the league for 50 years, bought by RA
they win it the next year. Man C hadn't won the league for 40 years, bought by Sheikh Mansour they win it twice in the next 5 seasons. Coincidence I'm sure.

[Eaststandee]

Information needs delivered to all Hibernian fans more readily, because I'm going to sign up to DD and it's only because of the information on this thread, all of which I didn't know before.

:flag:

[chippy]

[QUOTE=NAE NOOKIE;5227103]As much chance of that happening as me turning out at right back for Hibs this Saturday.

This goes exactly towards what I and it would appear a lot of other fans ( on here at least ) see as the ideal scenario when it comes to fans owning shares in the club. Fans do not need to have majority control of the club in order to be able to spike the guns of asset strippers, a shareholding of less than 40% would still give the fans enough clout to stop a rogue owner doing what appears to have been done to the likes of Blackpool FC.

Most folk ( not all ) who want to buy a football club and with the money to do it are driven by their ego ... the biggest thing to them is to be able to say they own the club, and with a controlling interest of over 50% they can do that. If the fans own 51% we can wave bye bye to any rich individual putting their own money into the club.

And before anybody quotes Germany .... that's entirely different, we are not

Deutschland....seriously though many public companies are managed without owning an invoice ndividual owning a majority share. A Board simply needs the backing of a majority of shareholders. There is already a diversity of fan shareholders and HSL Individual fan shareholders or HSL could side with a large shareholder to take control. HSL can I think only get up to around 30% max. That makes them a player with seats on the board. Any large investor will need to take account of HSL and fan shareholders and vice versa. If shareholders splits work for public companies why not for us? There will be times when HSL and fan shareholders disagree. That’s good for open debate and discussion. But it will be for the board to demonstrate success to keep the support of the large shareholder blocs.

[BSEJVT]

Information needs delivered to all Hibernian fans more readily, because I'm going to sign up to DD and it's only because of the information on this thread, all of which I didn't know before.

:flag:

Well if this thread has achieved nothing more than you and a couple of others who have mentioned doing so subscribing it has fulfilled its purpose.

Thanks for doing so

It does however also highlight the fact that with a bit more publicity and engagement we could rive subscriber number substantially higher.

Here's hoping ;-)

[Bristolhibby]

IMHO it was made too dificult.

Independent financial advise? I jut want to be a share holder. Would have bought shares as gifts as well for my Dad and sons.

Make it as easy as buying a East Stand stone and we’d sell loads of shares. They would be a bit like those penny stocks in Wolf if Wall Street though, but most would not be buying to make any sort of return.

J

[SlickShoes]

Thanks to folk who responded to my post .... still waiting on HSL to though :greengrin

I understand that folk see the concept of controlling fan ownership as the ideal scenario .... but nobody can deny that will pretty well forever close the door on a wealthy individual or other entity putting money into the club.

Surely the end game is to challenge the likes of Celtic, Sevco and Aberdeen ..... None of these clubs is looking at a fan ownership model as a current goal and like it or not I doubt the Hibs fanbase is big enough for it to pump in the kind of money that will enable us to compete with at least Aberdeen financially .... we can look at FOH as an example of what money can be raised, but even the amount they put in is peanuts in the grand scheme of things ... They don't own Hearts, but what they contribute is an example of how it might work if a club is fan owned. How are Hearts doing on the back of that on the pitch? Going downhill rapidly as far as I can see, with an owner who has neither the financial clout or willingness to put her own money into the team.

I am not saying a fan owned club cant survive and even thrive in its own way ..... but how do we make inroads into the league dominance of the bigger privately owned clubs when our income is solely dependent on commercial activities and fans money? In this scenario I will be interested to see how the romantic ideal measures up when the board turn round and say we cant afford to spend £100,000 on a goalscorer as we plummet down the league ... how does it work when the disgruntled fans start having a go at the board and the board say 'well you own the club, not us' you have to come up with the money?

Is it? I can't see how you do that without having a billionaire take over and pump stupid money in for really no good reason.

Scottish football is a terrible investment, football in general is.

Surely the endgame is to have a club that is here for future generations at the heart of a community that appreciates it.

Going for glory is not sustainable, the biggest clubs in the world are already too far ahead, there has to be more to life than just winning for the sake of winning. There is no glory in winning the champions league now, the SPL is emotionless, most leagues in Europe one or two rich clubs are so far ahead its almost pointless even trying to catch them. The best you can hope for is to put a good structure in place and hope to do a Leicester(I'm aware they done this with massive investment as well but it's something that's at least achievable).

[Shore Thing]

...What you are probably seeing is a scenario where HSL owned x % of the issued shares at one point in time...
Thanks for the explanation. I was forgetting/unaware that there is also an on-going individual share issue!

[Eaststandee]

Is it? I can't see how you do that without having a billionaire take over and pump stupid money in for really no good reason.

Scottish football is a terrible investment, football in general is.

Surely the endgame is to have a club that is here for future generations at the heart of a community that appreciates it.

Going for glory is not sustainable, the biggest clubs in the world are already too far ahead, there has to be more to life than just winning for the sake of winning. There is no glory in winning the champions league now, the SPL is emotionless, most leagues in Europe one or two rich clubs are so far ahead its almost pointless even trying to catch them. The best you can hope for is to put a good structure in place and hope to do a Leicester(I'm aware they done this with massive investment as well but it's something that's at least achievable).

I've been enjoying the SPL a hell of lot more than I ever have, that may just be me though..

[SlickShoes]

I've been enjoying the SPL a hell of lot more than I ever have, that may just be me though..

So have I but that's partly because we have been out of it for so long, it's only going to end one way though and that's with Celtc winning it and everyone else out of Europe at the first hurdle.

We need to make sure the club is stable and operating during times when we are not winning, I'll enjoy it while it's here but there isn't always going to be this feel good factor kicking about.

[Eaststandee]

So have I but that's partly because we have been out of it for so long, it's only going to end one way though and that's with Celtc winning it and everyone else out of Europe at the first hurdle.

We need to make sure the club is stable and operating during times when we are not winning, I'll enjoy it while it's here but there isn't always going to be this feel good factor kicking about.

That seems quite defeatist, being back in the Prem may be one factor, but it's also got to do with having a fantastic squad, manager, and CEO.

No one thinks Celtic aren't going to win the league and to think we'll beat them is sometimes hard to imagine, but it doesn't stop people turning up and I bet the game against them is still a sell out.

Of course we should make sure the Club is stable and functioning when things aren't going well, but surely that is the bare minimum.

[BSEJVT]

IMHO it was made too dificult.

Independent financial advise? I jut want to be a share holder. Would have bought shares as gifts as well for my Dad and sons.

Make it as easy as buying a East Stand stone and we’d sell loads of shares. They would be a bit like those penny stocks in Wolf if Wall Street though, but most would not be buying to make any sort of return.

J

There were 2 choices:

1) Buy individual shares

2) Buy through HSL

Buying through HSL you can do at the click of a button and can make individual arrangements funded by you for anyone you wish to, they will then become after the relevant threshold of contributions in HSL is reached a member (not sure if that is the correct term) of HSL

Rest assured the club would not have wanted to put the IFA burden in front of folk if it didn't have to but was legally obliged to do so. This option is presently not on the table anyway.

[Arch Stanton]

..................................


Surely the end game is to challenge the likes of Celtic, Sevco and Aberdeen .....


......................

Mind you, look where David Murray's end game of Rangers winning the European Cup left them.:greengrin

End games are really for fantasists - just stick to the basics for me. Keep wages to turnover ratio at 60% max and we'll be fine.

[Bostonhibby]

Mind you, look where David Murray's end game of Rangers winning the European Cup left them.:greengrin

End games are really for fantasists - just stick to the basics for me. Keep wages to turnover ratio at 60% max and we'll be fine.[emoji106]yep, shareholder, fan or despotic megalomaniac owner so long as you live within your means and don't steal and / or spend anyone else's money you'll be fine.

Sent from my SM-J320FN using Tapatalk

[NAE NOOKIE]

I can’t think of many cases where a rich individual has put money into a club that I have not found it to be either distasteful source or it has ended badly and usually both.

I know where you are coming from, but I still think shutting the door on any chance of ever having mega investment from an outside source is limiting our potential. As long as we avoid an 'owner' who shows his financial input as a debt on the clubs books and he can prove his money is clean then I for one would welcome such an investment.


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Is it? I can't see how you do that without having a billionaire take over and pump stupid money in for really no good reason.

Scottish football is a terrible investment, football in general is.

Surely the endgame is to have a club that is here for future generations at the heart of a community that appreciates it.

Going for glory is not sustainable, the biggest clubs in the world are already too far ahead, there has to be more to life than just winning for the sake of winning. There is no glory in winning the champions league now, the SPL is emotionless, most leagues in Europe one or two rich clubs are so far ahead its almost pointless even trying to catch them. The best you can hope for is to put a good structure in place and hope to do a Leicester(I'm aware they done this with massive investment as well but it's something that's at least achievable).

That's the bottom line, not the end game ..... We are a professional football club, not a bowling club, if survival and being around is all that counts we might as well become amateur and play in the south of Scotland league ... the ambition always has to be winning the league and limiting the possibilities of attracting investment which might enable us to do that one day is hardly step one in that process IMO. Chugging along and hoping to 'get lucky' is hardly working towards the goal we all want to achieve on the park.




Mind you, look where David Murray's end game of Rangers winning the European Cup left them.:greengrin

End games are really for fantasists - just stick to the basics for me. Keep wages to turnover ratio at 60% max and we'll be fine.

See my comment above ...... Is this the level of our ambition?

OZZY .... For some reason my reply to your post seems to have been included as if it was part of what you posted ... don't get it, but hope you see my reply.

[Nakedmanoncrack]

So have I but that's partly because we have been out of it for so long, it's only going to end one way though and that's with Celtc winning it and everyone else out of Europe at the first hurdle.

We need to make sure the club is stable and operating during times when we are not winning, I'll enjoy it while it's here but there isn't always going to be this feel good factor kicking about.

If Hibs don't win the league I really don't give a hoot who does (an exception made in 85/86 When it looked the impossible would happen) so if Celtic win it every year (rather than sharing the glory with Sevco) as they used to with the old Huns it makes no difference to me really.

[OfficialHSL]

Thanks to folk who responded to my post .... still waiting on HSL to though :greengrin

I understand that folk see the concept of controlling fan ownership as the ideal scenario .... but nobody can deny that will pretty well forever close the door on a wealthy individual or other entity putting money into the club.

Surely the end game is to challenge the likes of Celtic, Sevco and Aberdeen ..... None of these clubs is looking at a fan ownership model as a current goal and like it or not I doubt the Hibs fanbase is big enough for it to pump in the kind of money that will enable us to compete with at least Aberdeen financially .... we can look at FOH as an example of what money can be raised, but even the amount they put in is peanuts in the grand scheme of things ... They don't own Hearts, but what they contribute is an example of how it might work if a club is fan owned. How are Hearts doing on the back of that on the pitch? Going downhill rapidly as far as I can see, with an owner who has neither the financial clout or willingness to put her own money into the team.

I am not saying a fan owned club cant survive and even thrive in its own way ..... but how do we make inroads into the league dominance of the bigger privately owned clubs when our income is solely dependent on commercial activities and fans money? In this scenario I will be interested to see how the romantic ideal measures up when the board turn round and say we cant afford to spend £100,000 on a goalscorer as we plummet down the league ... how does it work when the disgruntled fans start having a go at the board and the board say 'well you own the club, not us' you have to come up with the money?

Nae Nookie

Rest assured, will respond soon. Working through the thread from page one. Rest assured we will gladly respond to all points as far as we can. Also please be assured that all of the Directors accept that we are not perfect and there are areas where we could and should have done better. But most of all, we want to do better going forward to deliver more money to our beloved Club.

[Brooster]

Nae Nookie

Rest assured, will respond soon. Working through the thread from page one. Rest assured we will gladly respond to all points as far as we can. Also please be assured that all of the Directors accept that we are not perfect and there are areas where we could and should have done better. But most of all, we want to do better going forward to deliver more money to our beloved Club.

Thanks for the updates OHSL, very much appreciated. Could you answer 2 questions please?
1. How much per month do you donate to Hibs?
2. What is your plan to tap in to this more deeply? I think the sky is the limit. Who or what do you need to make it take off? Hibs have an excellent PR/Comms team, maybe they could help. Sorry that was more than 2 questions lol.

[Arch Stanton]

See my comment above ...... Is this the level of our ambition?



OK, I just don't share your ambition to have a rich benefactor - but good luck on that all the same.

[OfficialHSL]

I would be interested to know what ages are buying shares.

I know these days many of the younger generation dont see shares as a cool thing to have or in most cases can’t afford extra.

The other issue is as always with money is making sure you feel it’s going to something worthwhile.

If there was a simpler way to donate and support the playing side in sure many more would do that.

I also agree about fan ownership - it’s risky.

Hearts aren’t anywhere near it and I’m still not sure how sustainable it will be in the long run with the way football continues to develop and the millions being spent by teams. Nearly every top team has a rich owner of some sort.

City of Green
We can't comment on the age profile of those who bought shares from the Club directly as only they, the Club, have that data. Anecdotal evidence would suggest the majority are 30+ and this would be consistent with our own experience of our Membership.

If you are correct and the younger generation don't see shares as cool then I do hope our proposition offers them what they want. It takes just two minutes to sign up to make a regular monthly donation at http://hiberniansupporters.co.uk/donate.html. All of their funds will go towards helping Neil and the Team.

We suspect that much of the confusion and in some cases conflict surrounding "fan ownership" is caused by the different interpretations of this expression. There are examples of Clubs where fans own 20% of the equity and there isn't any indication of additional risk. Likewise there are examples of Clubs where fans own the majority share and there are no doubt inherent risks associated with that. The Board of the Club took a decision almost three years ago and have set out a path for going forward. In terms of the existing principle shareholder it is a very generous offer that facilitates money going to the Club rather than them.

It is our understanding that Hearts are already 20% owned by the FOH and will in the near future own a 35% stake.

Our aims are rather more simple. To provide a safe, transparent vehicle to allow fans to make voluntary, affordable donations to the Club they love. The ambition for fan ownership ( at whatever level ) is for the fans to decide.

Hope this helps.

[SlickShoes]

That's the bottom line, not the end game ..... We are a professional football club, not a bowling club, if survival and being around is all that counts we might as well become amateur and play in the south of Scotland league ... the ambition always has to be winning the league and limiting the possibilities of attracting investment which might enable us to do that one day is hardly step one in that process IMO. Chugging along and hoping to 'get lucky' is hardly working towards the goal we all want to achieve on the park.





See my comment above ...... Is this the level of our ambition?

OZZY .... For some reason my reply to your post seems to have been included as if it was part of what you posted ... don't get it, but hope you see my reply.

I do want hibs to win the league I hope thats the ultimate goal for the players as well but football has changed a lot, pretty much my entire life of watching football we have had next to no chance of winning. The big clubs just keep getting richer and even clubs investing millions are lagging a long way behind.

[OfficialHSL]

There are plenty things in the world that simply exist. Generally, the ones that are more successful market themselves and communicate with people.

HSL seem to merely exist, they're hardly pushing for new members and engaging with existing are they?

BHFC

There are not many who would disagree with your comments, particularly this year. Prior to this we have :

1. Engaged with fans in the East,West and Famous Five stands in the form of Pop up Stands and a physical presence.

2. At the same time as item 1 distributed over 10,000 leaflets on match days.

3. Contacted all Supporter Branch's offering our attendance and presentation. We have attended when invited at both Sunnyside and individual branches and Pubs.

4. Canvassed support on both major Club Forums.

5. Sought free PR in both print media and broadcast.

Have we got all of this right on all occasions - absolutely not. We have done relatively well on Facebook and Twitter but not very well on our Web site.

We have commissioned an outside Firm to develop a new web site and will be inviting Members to contribute their ideas.

Ultimately however it is for each individual supporter to determine their own financial position and decide if the want to make what is essentially a voluntary contribution to their Club.

[OfficialHSL]

The disparity between HSL and FoH is a bit of a puzzle. I think it's fair to say that FoH benefited massively from being formed at a time of crisis. The FoH supporters have really bought in to 'saving their club' in a big way, which was quite deftly turned into building the stand by the organisers in order to sustain the level of donations. While we've all had a good chuckle at the scale of hyperbole surrounding the new main stand at Tynecastle, it's served its purpose because the donations keep rolling in.

Personally, I find the whole FoH thing extremely odd. It's like a cult. They pay their cash and don't ask questions. The cash goes straight to working capital while, apparently, other people make big decisions on how it's used - like (ahem!) upgrading the facilities in the new stand to a higher level than originally specified.

HSL is a different beast. There's no sense of crisis at Hibs. There isn't a huge appetite for full fan ownership. If anything, the fans reps on the board scheme, has shown that most fans are fish out of water at board level and that the actual demands of the job soon compromises their allegiance with the demands of the average fan.

Having said all that, I don't think HSL has got its message over to folks who would be happy to support it. After all, the money paid in goes direct to the team. HSL needs to make itself more visible to the fans. It has to engage. It has to demonstrate the work it's doing and it has to prove its credibility as a future force in the management of the club. I'm not convinced it's done any of that so far.

Alan

As requested please allow us to engage with you and thank you for the points raised in relation to HSL.

You are right to point out that the FOH started out of necessity, while in our case there wasn't the same burning bridge. Having said that it should be acknowledged that it was very clear what was on offer. The proposal asked for about £4m working capital which the fans provided to save the Club. Having saved the Club the fans voluntarily agreed by a margin of 97% in favour to pay £3m towards the cost of their new stand temporarily delaying the final part of the deal. We understand that by May of next year the FOH will own 35% of the Club. At that point, having spent £7m, it would seem likely that they will complete the remaining £2.4m to take ownership of the Club.

We would not argue with your final point since we fully agree that while not expecting to get 8000 fans on board we would have hoped to get closer to half that amount. Please bear in mind the circumstances at the time of our inception and indeed some of the "opposing winds" facing us. In this context our principle aim was to provide a safe and trusted vehicle for all fans to donate whatever amount they could. We think we have achieved that objective but recognise that we are in a different phase now and different things are required. We need help however and one of the best promotional tools we have is word of mouth. If you are already a Member please tell another Hibs fan about us and how they can help our Club.

[Sioux]

Thanks HSL for your feedback

I have to say I wasn't aware that there was an opportunity to simply make a donation/set up DD without the requirement of purchasing shares. That appeals to me. Maybe I missed something in the initial launch but it is perhaps an opportunity arises for HSL to publicise the simple no strings attached donation aspect.

AS they say the more the merrier.

[OfficialHSL]

Don't put word in to my mouth. If people can afford to put an extra tenner a month in to the club then thats up to them. It should only be an extra, a bonus if you like, rather than an income stream that the club could not operate without .When a professional organisation paying salaries far in excess of what most fans earn starts running itself like a charity then the whole game needs to take a look at itself.
I do pay in to HSL but I do so in the knowledge that it is no longer a route to full fan ownership. We managed to set up a vehicle for fan ownership that can never achieve a majority shareholding.
Marinello

Thank you for your continued support.

We suspect that the vast majority of our Members share your view and are quite happily paying a sum of money that is surplus to their requirements. We don't ever want any fan to be donating funds they can't afford. You know that your money is going to the Club along with your fellow contributors donations and it is simply designed to provide additional financial support. Not many think too much about fan ownership per se. Our principle target has always been to achieve a 26 % stake and provide a safe and trustworthy vehicle for doing that. The Board of the Club made a decision almost three years ago about the wider share ownership issue and we are operating within the terms of that decision. We just want to get as much additional money into the Club to improve our on field prospects of success.

[truehibernian]

Have to admit, after this thread and reading OHSL and others posts, I'm going to commit to HSL - it's been well explained and I can afford some extra going to the club (fortunately).

With a real drive and promotion, say an extra 2000 members paying £18.75 a month (less than a walk up ticket, about 5 pints up town) I'm encouraged it goes to helping the club attract players. Those kind of numbers could bring in an extra £450,000. That's three or four quality players. I do think however that kind of commitment needs incentivised for those where money is tighter and want a little back - maybe a deal with Hibs TV so they get half year membership or something (Hibs TV is getting a lot better :agree:) - or better discounts with local businesses - from the website this clearly is untapped. Can I propose a discount at Bain's at Stenhouse Cross :greengrin

Should have a dot counter to count new members :greengrin:aok:

[StevieCowan]

Have HSL seen an increase in members since the OP?

[overdrive]

There were 2 choices:

1) Buy individual shares

2) Buy through HSL

Buying through HSL you can do at the click of a button and can make individual arrangements funded by you for anyone you wish to, they will then become after the relevant threshold of contributions in HSL is reached a member (not sure if that is the correct term) of HSL

Rest assured the club would not have wanted to put the IFA burden in front of folk if it didn't have to but was legally obliged to do so. This option is presently not on the table anyway.

The second issue of individual shares didn’t require an IFA in any case. You just needed to answer a few questions online to make sure you were aware it was a risky ‘investment’ with no likelihood of ever making a return on it and to confirm you could afford it. You didn’t even have to pay the full amount up front. The chances are Bristol could have bought them if he/she wanted to and could answer the questions (that isn’t intended as a dig at him/her BTW, as I can’t remember how well it was publicised and from many of the comments on here, there seems to be a lot of confusion between the different vehicles to ownership that are/were available).

[BSEJVT]

The second issue of individual shares didn’t require an IFA in any case. You just needed to answer a few questions online to make sure you were aware it was a risky ‘investment’ with no likelihood of ever making a return on it and to confirm you could afford it. You didn’t even have to pay the full amount up front. The chances are Bristol could have bought them if he/she wanted to and could answer the questions (that isn’t intended as a dig at him/her BTW, as I can’t remember how well it was publicised and from many of the comments on here, there seems to be a lot of confusion between the different vehicles to ownership that are/were available).

You could be right

Was the IFA requirement just for the first direct share sale?

However for the avoidance of all doubt, the only option on the go at present is through HSL.

We need to get talking about HSL again and get promoting it and how easy it is to join within our Hibs supporting friends and acquaintances.

Whatever our motivations and views on fan ownership we cannot allow Hearts this advantage over us as sooner or later they will make use of it.

I cant see there being a donate to Hibs direct option available until the available shares are bought and we must get to 26% to fully secure our future.

Ask not what your club can do for you but what you can do for it (with thanks to JFK)!

[Johnny Clash]

Just wondering exactly why some supporters are opposed to the very idea of fan ownership or fan control.

To me the theory isn’t objectionable. Tom Farmer, for example is a Hibs fan so if those opposing fan ownership don’t want Hibs fans involved - exactly who then do they want?

[Leithenhibby]

You could be right

Was the IFA requirement just for the first direct share sale?

However for the avoidance of all doubt, the only option on the go at present is through HSL.

We need to get talking about HSL again and get promoting it and how easy it is to join within our Hibs supporting friends and acquaintances.

Whatever our motivations and views on fan ownership we cannot allow Hearts this advantage over us as sooner or later they will make use of it.

I cant see there being a donate to Hibs direct option available until the available shares are bought and we must get to 26% to fully secure our future.

Ask not what your club can do for you but what you can do for it (with thanks to JFK)!


10/10

Absolutely bang on.

Not just the highlighted point, but the post. :aok:

Takes two minutes - https://goo.gl/ri7s2d

GGTTH

[CropleyWasGod]

My tuppence here.

The OP was prompted by the drop-off in HSL share money in the year covered by the accounts, ie to June this year. Since then, HSL has had its AGM, and all of the criticism that has been levelled at them was aired then.

The Board took it on the chin, and undertook to do certain things to improve the income. That's only been a couple of months, so I'm happy to give them the chance to actually carry it out, rather than go over old ground which has been covered ad nauseam.

[Alan62]

Alan

As requested please allow us to engage with you and thank you for the points raised in relation to HSL.

You are right to point out that the FOH started out of necessity, while in our case there wasn't the same burning bridge. Having said that it should be acknowledged that it was very clear what was on offer. The proposal asked for about £4m working capital which the fans provided to save the Club. Having saved the Club the fans voluntarily agreed by a margin of 97% in favour to pay £3m towards the cost of their new stand temporarily delaying the final part of the deal. We understand that by May of next year the FOH will own 35% of the Club. At that point, having spent £7m, it would seem likely that they will complete the remaining £2.4m to take ownership of the Club.

We would not argue with your final point since we fully agree that while not expecting to get 8000 fans on board we would have hoped to get closer to half that amount. Please bear in mind the circumstances at the time of our inception and indeed some of the "opposing winds" facing us. In this context our principle aim was to provide a safe and trusted vehicle for all fans to donate whatever amount they could. We think we have achieved that objective but recognise that we are in a different phase now and different things are required. We need help however and one of the best promotional tools we have is word of mouth. If you are already a Member please tell another Hibs fan about us and how they can help our Club.

Thanks for responding. I am not currently a member of HSL but would certainly consider it again. I still believe that HSL needs to have greater visibility in order to achieve its goals and much more clarity around the proposition. It's hard work, I know. I am a professional marketer, I know the challenges of reaching an audience and sustaining the conversation across multiple channels. It takes time and imagination - particularly when budgets are limited (or even non-existent).

My view would be that HSL should ignore what's happening at FoH and reinvent itself as a much more prominent player within the Hibernian ecosystem with a compelling proposition for supporters who can afford to contribute to its aims. That means fresh ideas are required. Maybe we could take this conversation offline. :wink:

[scoopyboy]

Just wondering exactly why some supporters are opposed to the very idea of fan ownership or fan control.

To me the theory isn’t objectionable. Tom Farmer, for example is a Hibs fan so if those opposing fan ownership don’t want Hibs fans involved - exactly who then do they want?

I think the fear is the club are back on a sound footing and the last thing people want is the club being mismanaged by a bunch of nutters that may damage all the good work done.

Going by some posters on hibs.net I can see where they are coming from to be honest.

[Mikey]

I think the fear is the club are back on a sound footing and the last thing people want is the club being mismanaged by a bunch of nutters that may damage all the good work done.

Going by some posters on hibs.net I can see where they are coming from to be honest.

There are some absolute bampots who would love to be involved in the running of the club and if we had fan ownership they would undoubtedly muscle their way to the front.

Just being a name that people know would be enough for many. Look how much support Pat Stanton had at the beginning of the client rep vote process.

Fan ownership might sound good but attitudes will change if we ever get to the stage where a letter drops through the door asking for 10p per share from shareholders to cover debts run up.

That said, HSL is still a good idea and a very worthwhile small investment for fans.

[CropleyWasGod]

I think the fear is the club are back on a sound footing and the last thing people want is the club being mismanaged by a bunch of nutters that may damage all the good work done.

Going by some posters on hibs.net I can see where they are coming from to be honest.

People get confused, though, by management and ownership. For example, STF "owns" us just now, but he rarely gets involved in management. That's the way I would envisage things continuing, even if "we" attain 51% ownership.

And don't forget that STF/HFC/their successors would still be the largest single shareholder, no matter what HSL have. That would remain a very important, and persuasive, force.

[scoopyboy]

People get confused, though, by management and ownership. For example, STF "owns" us just now, but he rarely gets involved in management. That's the way I would envisage things continuing, even if "we" attain 51% ownership.

And don't forget that STF/HFC/their successors would still be the largest single shareholder, no matter what HSL have. That would remain a very important, and persuasive, force.

Yeah I get that CWG.

I was answering to a poster who couldn't see concerns about fan ownership.

I think a lot of people think that its going to be a bunch of Joe Punters running the club and they have concerns that the club could go t*** up.

[CropleyWasGod]

Yeah I get that CWG.

I was answering to a poster who couldn't see concerns about fan ownership.

I think a lot of people think that its going to be a bunch of Joe Punters running the club and they have concerns that the club could go t*** up.

Gotcha.

I think it might be useful for us to have some kind of education process on what exactly "fan ownership" would look like, and what "we" could and couldn't do. It might concentrate minds on what it is we are actually working towards, and what the implications are or could be, for the Club and the shareholders.

I'm not volunteering, mind. :greengrin

[Michael]

Can't wait for the fans to own the club so that we can vote on the starting 11 each week. Fans could also make subs with an app.

[BSEJVT]

My tuppence here.

The OP was prompted by the drop-off in HSL share money in the year covered by the accounts, ie to June this year. Since then, HSL has had its AGM, and all of the criticism that has been levelled at them was aired then.

The Board took it on the chin, and undertook to do certain things to improve the income. That's only been a couple of months, so I'm happy to give them the chance to actually carry it out, rather than go over old ground which has been covered ad nauseam.

Thanks for your reply

The OP was as you suggest prompted by the drop off in income but more so by the fact that FOH raise 10 times more.

I have spoken to HSL following the OP and there is much we agree on.

I wouldn't want to speak for HSL as I have absolutely no mandate to do so, but it is clear from HSL's own comments on this thread that there is a recognition things could be done better (as is always the case no matter how well something is going)

I have to say I have a massive amount of sympathy for the current incumbents of HSL as they don't seem to have any support at all.

As far as I see it we have 2 choices:

1) We can wait for better days

or

2) We can grab the bull by the horns and do something

What I can say with some certainty is that HSL would welcome any help given to them.

HSL

Can you specify the type of assistance you are looking for please?

Also the time frame within which you will be looking for it?

Also the time commitment required and how often

Thanks


I am happy to collate by PM people's offers in response to the help required if need be.

[Ozyhibby]

Can't wait for the fans to own the club so that we can vote on the starting 11 each week. Fans could also make subs with an app.

Always good to have some sensible input. [emoji849]


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[overdrive]

Always good to have some sensible input. [emoji849]


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To be fair, something like this has actually happened in England with 'fan' ownership.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MyFootballClub

Apologies for going off-topic.

[NAE NOOKIE]

OK, I just don't share your ambition to have a rich benefactor - but good luck on that all the same.

Its not an 'ambition' mate, but it is on the wish list .... I'm not naïve enough to think that there are billionaires out there simply desperate to invest in Hibs, but it happens in football and all I'm saying is next to no chance is better than no chance at all.


There are some absolute bampots who would love to be involved in the running of the club and if we had fan ownership they would undoubtedly muscle their way to the front.

Just being a name that people know would be enough for many. Look how much support Pat Stanton had at the beginning of the client rep vote process.

Fan ownership might sound good but attitudes will change if we ever get to the stage where a letter drops through the door asking for 10p per share from shareholders to cover debts run up.

That said, HSL is still a good idea and a very worthwhile small investment for fans.

This is exactly why I continually ask the question and continue to get no answers about how the club will be run once it is 51% fan owned .... how will board members be appointed? What qualifications apart from just being a Hibs fan will be required? How will they arrive at decisions vital to the wellbeing of the club? ... And for me the biggest question, who will have control of the biggest shareholding IE Tom Farmer's and what if anything will they do with it? The worst thing I can think of is having the biggest shareholder, whoever that might end up being, with no interest in the club.

The last bit of your post is probably the most important part for me ...... Its all well and good having romantic notions of fan ownership, but clubs don't run on goodwill and wishes, they run on hard cash and if an emergency of any sort rears its ugly head where millions are required, without the backing of Tom Farmer's clout in guaranteeing the clubs borrowing or even putting his own money forward as he did when our bank debt was cleared exactly how are at the very most 4000, for the most part ordinary people like me, supposed to come up with that money?

So far as I can see we are stumbling blindly down a path for the clubs future with no clear idea of how we are going to run the place when we finally get there .... I keep hearing what's possible if 8, 10, 15 thousand folk get behind the club in a FOH style funding programme. What I don't see is any evidence that we can get that level of fan involvement and absolutely no concrete statements, ideas or proposals from either the club or HSL as to how this club can raise the finance it will require to compete with its peers apart from pointing to our current level of support on a Saturday, even though its at a level unprecedented in 40 years and far for the norm for this club in the modern era.

I don't know the exact figures, so I'm just going to make up an example of what the club's shareholding could look like in 10 years time, maybe less:

Sir Tom Farmer's family ............... 39%
Hibs supporters Ltd ..................... 26%
Individual private shareholders ..... 25%
Rod Petrie .................................. 10%

What plans are being made to turn that mish mash into a cohesive unit capable of successfully running a football club? .... so far none that I can see.

[BSEJVT]

Its not an 'ambition' mate, but it is on the wish list .... I'm not naïve enough to think that there are billionaires out there simply desperate to invest in Hibs, but it happens in football and all I'm saying is next to no chance is better than no chance at all.



This is exactly why I continually ask the question and continue to get no answers about how the club will be run once it is 51% fan owned .... how will board members be appointed? What qualifications apart from just being a Hibs fan will be required? How will they arrive at decisions vital to the wellbeing of the club? ... And for me the biggest question, who will have control of the biggest shareholding IE Tom Farmer's and what if anything will they do with it? The worst thing I can think of is having the biggest shareholder, whoever that might end up being, with no interest in the club.

The last bit of your post is probably the most important part for me ...... Its all well and good having romantic notions of fan ownership, but clubs don't run on goodwill and wishes, they run on hard cash and if an emergency of any sort rears its ugly head where millions are required, without the backing of Tom Farmer's clout in guaranteeing the clubs borrowing or even putting his own money forward as he did when our bank debt was cleared exactly how are at the very most 4000, for the most part ordinary people like me, supposed to come up with that money?

So far as I can see we are stumbling blindly down a path for the clubs future with no clear idea of how we are going to run the place when we finally get there .... I keep hearing what's possible if 8, 10, 15 thousand folk get behind the club in a FOH style funding programme. What I don't see is any evidence that we can get that level of fan involvement and absolutely no concrete statements, ideas or proposals from either the club or HSL as to how this club can raise the finance it will require to compete with its peers apart from pointing to our current level of support on a Saturday, even though its at a level unprecedented in 40 years and far for the norm for this club in the modern era.

I don't know the exact figures, so I'm just going to make up an example of what the club's shareholding could look like in 10 years time, maybe less:

Sir Tom Farmer's family ............... 39%
Hibs supporters Ltd ..................... 26%
Individual private shareholders ..... 25%
Rod Petrie .................................. 10%

What plans are being made to turn that mish mash into a cohesive unit capable of successfully running a football club? .... so far none that I can see.

I think the answer lies much as it would do with any company in that the ability to command x% of the shares voting rights would enable you to take a seat on the board.

Up to now this has been done by consensus as STF has held the lions share of the shares

This wont always be the case though

When HSL are entitled to a seat at the table (13% rings a bell but I may be wrong) it's constitution should say who will take that seat.

HSL can you clarify please?

My guess would be that it would be one of its office bearers who in turn will need elected under the terms of its constitution.

I don't disagree with views expressed earlier that there is a danger that it becomes a popularity contest rather than who is well suited to the role, but that's no different to any group of shareholders putting up their own candidate in any walk of life.

It seems to me though that folk are getting a bit over excited and ahead of themselves on this, particularly in so far as any HSL shareholding is concerned and fans shares in general

STF and his nominees will still hold 49% and can effectively block anything that they don't fancy and many of the rank and file shareholders will support him as IMO STF has acted with nothing but the clubs best interests in mind since day 1.

I could point you to Dundee United who have suffered badly since Eddie Thomson died by virtue of the fact that his majority shareholding passed to someone who to put in kindly has struggled to act in the clubs best interests whether through accident or design.

The route we are on protects us from this scenario or a Blackpool Oyston scenario and is IMO clearly the lesser of two evils.

There are more than enough vocal people out their who could command sufficient support and respect amongst the support to make sure that those on the board "played the game" in the clubs best interests.

[CropleyWasGod]

Its not an 'ambition' mate, but it is on the wish list .... I'm not naïve enough to think that there are billionaires out there simply desperate to invest in Hibs, but it happens in football and all I'm saying is next to no chance is better than no chance at all.



This is exactly why I continually ask the question and continue to get no answers about how the club will be run once it is 51% fan owned .... how will board members be appointed? What qualifications apart from just being a Hibs fan will be required? How will they arrive at decisions vital to the wellbeing of the club? ... And for me the biggest question, who will have control of the biggest shareholding IE Tom Farmer's and what if anything will they do with it? The worst thing I can think of is having the biggest shareholder, whoever that might end up being, with no interest in the club.

The last bit of your post is probably the most important part for me ...... Its all well and good having romantic notions of fan ownership, but clubs don't run on goodwill and wishes, they run on hard cash and if an emergency of any sort rears its ugly head where millions are required, without the backing of Tom Farmer's clout in guaranteeing the clubs borrowing or even putting his own money forward as he did when our bank debt was cleared exactly how are at the very most 4000, for the most part ordinary people like me, supposed to come up with that money?

So far as I can see we are stumbling blindly down a path for the clubs future with no clear idea of how we are going to run the place when we finally get there .... I keep hearing what's possible if 8, 10, 15 thousand folk get behind the club in a FOH style funding programme. What I don't see is any evidence that we can get that level of fan involvement and absolutely no concrete statements, ideas or proposals from either the club or HSL as to how this club can raise the finance it will require to compete with its peers apart from pointing to our current level of support on a Saturday, even though its at a level unprecedented in 40 years and far for the norm for this club in the modern era.

I don't know the exact figures, so I'm just going to make up an example of what the club's shareholding could look like in 10 years time, maybe less:

Sir Tom Farmer's family ............... 39%
Hibs supporters Ltd ..................... 26%
Individual private shareholders ..... 25%
Rod Petrie .................................. 10%

What plans are being made to turn that mish mash into a cohesive unit capable of successfully running a football club? .... so far none that I can see.I keep seeing this bit about the fans having to pony up in the event of an emergency. I've, twice, mentioned on this thread why that's unlikely to happen.

So...again.....

The shareholders appoint a Board whose function it is to manage the club properly, and whose experience should assist in forecasting and preparing for the worst. I'm struggling to guess what that.might be, but let's suppose it happens.

As I've said, as football clubs go, we are relatively attractive to outside finance. Low debt, lots of security, and a track record of excellent financial management. That would be the first port of call for "emergency" funding.

As has been said, commercial companies dont immediately turn to their shareholders for cash as soon as they get into crisis. Neither should, or would we IMO.

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[Michael]

Always good to have some sensible input. [emoji849]


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Only a joke at those who think fan ownership will mean there's a dozen supporters running about East Mains trying to work out where the green bibs were left.

I'm definitely all for HSL.

[Ozyhibby]

Its not an 'ambition' mate, but it is on the wish list .... I'm not naïve enough to think that there are billionaires out there simply desperate to invest in Hibs, but it happens in football and all I'm saying is next to no chance is better than no chance at all.



This is exactly why I continually ask the question and continue to get no answers about how the club will be run once it is 51% fan owned .... how will board members be appointed? What qualifications apart from just being a Hibs fan will be required? How will they arrive at decisions vital to the wellbeing of the club? ... And for me the biggest question, who will have control of the biggest shareholding IE Tom Farmer's and what if anything will they do with it? The worst thing I can think of is having the biggest shareholder, whoever that might end up being, with no interest in the club.

The last bit of your post is probably the most important part for me ...... Its all well and good having romantic notions of fan ownership, but clubs don't run on goodwill and wishes, they run on hard cash and if an emergency of any sort rears its ugly head where millions are required, without the backing of Tom Farmer's clout in guaranteeing the clubs borrowing or even putting his own money forward as he did when our bank debt was cleared exactly how are at the very most 4000, for the most part ordinary people like me, supposed to come up with that money?

So far as I can see we are stumbling blindly down a path for the clubs future with no clear idea of how we are going to run the place when we finally get there .... I keep hearing what's possible if 8, 10, 15 thousand folk get behind the club in a FOH style funding programme. What I don't see is any evidence that we can get that level of fan involvement and absolutely no concrete statements, ideas or proposals from either the club or HSL as to how this club can raise the finance it will require to compete with its peers apart from pointing to our current level of support on a Saturday, even though its at a level unprecedented in 40 years and far for the norm for this club in the modern era.

I don't know the exact figures, so I'm just going to make up an example of what the club's shareholding could look like in 10 years time, maybe less:

Sir Tom Farmer's family ............... 39%
Hibs supporters Ltd ..................... 26%
Individual private shareholders ..... 25%
Rod Petrie .................................. 10%

What plans are being made to turn that mish mash into a cohesive unit capable of successfully running a football club? .... so far none that I can see.

Have you seen the mish mash of people who own Celtic? They seem to manage. Dermot Desmond owns less than 50% of Celtic and it does not appear to worry him. Celtic fans own over 50% of their shares.
Btw, Rods 10% will be getting diluted as well unless he purchased new shares in the last offer.


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[truehibernian]

I keep seeing this bit about the fans having to pony up in the event of an emergency. I've, twice, mentioned on this thread why that's unlikely to happen.

So...again.....

The shareholders appoint a Board whose function it is to manage the club properly, and whose experience should assist in forecasting and preparing for the worst. I'm struggling to guess what that.might be, but let's suppose it happens.

As I've said, as football clubs go, we are relatively attractive to outside finance. Low debt, lots of security, and a track record of excellent financial management. That would be the first port of call for "emergency" funding.

As has been said, commercial companies dont immediately turn to their shareholders for cash as soon as they get into crisis. Neither should, or would we IMO.

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I'm maybe a little niave and simplistic CWG - I'm seeing HSL as another vehicle to give some extra to Lennon's transfer kitty each window. I'm in the fortunate position where I can extend to that, many won't be as household budgets are tight for many so I completely understand folk paying what they can, on whatever they can (seasons, Hibs TV, strips, etc.). I'm not expecting anything in return to be honest (for the little investment).

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm maybe a little niave and simplistic CWG - I'm seeing HSL as another vehicle to give some extra to Lennon's transfer kitty each window. I'm in the fortunate position where I can extend to that, many won't be as household budgets are tight for many so I completely understand folk paying what they can, on whatever they can (seasons, Hibs TV, strips, etc.). I'm not expecting anything in return to be honest (for the little investment).I don't think that's naive at all. I'd reckon your thinking is in line with the majority of supporters.

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[Caversham Green]

Its not an 'ambition' mate, but it is on the wish list .... I'm not naïve enough to think that there are billionaires out there simply desperate to invest in Hibs, but it happens in football and all I'm saying is next to no chance is better than no chance at all.



This is exactly why I continually ask the question and continue to get no answers about how the club will be run once it is 51% fan owned .... how will board members be appointed? What qualifications apart from just being a Hibs fan will be required? How will they arrive at decisions vital to the wellbeing of the club? ... And for me the biggest question, who will have control of the biggest shareholding IE Tom Farmer's and what if anything will they do with it? The worst thing I can think of is having the biggest shareholder, whoever that might end up being, with no interest in the club.

The last bit of your post is probably the most important part for me ...... Its all well and good having romantic notions of fan ownership, but clubs don't run on goodwill and wishes, they run on hard cash and if an emergency of any sort rears its ugly head where millions are required, without the backing of Tom Farmer's clout in guaranteeing the clubs borrowing or even putting his own money forward as he did when our bank debt was cleared exactly how are at the very most 4000, for the most part ordinary people like me, supposed to come up with that money?

So far as I can see we are stumbling blindly down a path for the clubs future with no clear idea of how we are going to run the place when we finally get there .... I keep hearing what's possible if 8, 10, 15 thousand folk get behind the club in a FOH style funding programme. What I don't see is any evidence that we can get that level of fan involvement and absolutely no concrete statements, ideas or proposals from either the club or HSL as to how this club can raise the finance it will require to compete with its peers apart from pointing to our current level of support on a Saturday, even though its at a level unprecedented in 40 years and far for the norm for this club in the modern era.

I don't know the exact figures, so I'm just going to make up an example of what the club's shareholding could look like in 10 years time, maybe less:

Sir Tom Farmer's family ............... 39%
Hibs supporters Ltd ..................... 26%
Individual private shareholders ..... 25%
Rod Petrie .................................. 10%

What plans are being made to turn that mish mash into a cohesive unit capable of successfully running a football club? .... so far none that I can see.

On the shareholding ratios The Petrie and Farmer shares are owned through HFC Holdings Ltd, so that's really a single block of 49%. That means they'll still have the loudest voice in any vote, and won't need many other shareholders' consent to carry a majority - in practice they will still be the main management base. The main difference is that supporters will have enough grunt to prevent undesirable events such as the sale of the club to asset strippers, but they will also have some degree of management control for major contentious issues.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

I think the fear is the club are back on a sound footing and the last thing people want is the club being mismanaged by a bunch of nutters that may damage all the good work done.

Going by some posters on hibs.net I can see where they are coming from to be honest.

For folks wanting a wee snippet* of an insight into what it takes to get things done attending Working Together sessions would be a decent start if you’re local.

* albeit not the full complete picture but why not attend and speak with directors when scheduled and the fans reps

[NYHibby]

On the shareholding ratios The Petrie and Farmer shares are owned through HFC Holdings Ltd, so that's really a single block of 49%. That means they'll still have the loudest voice in any vote, and won't need many other shareholders' consent to carry a majority - in practice they will still be the main management base. The main difference is that supporters will have enough grunt to prevent undesirable events such as the sale of the club to asset strippers, but they will also have some degree of management control for major contentious issues.

I use 'Petrie owns 10% of the club' as my litmus test for seeing if someone posting here has no idea what they are talking about. In reality, I own more than twice as many shares as Petrie, as do many other people.

[NYHibby]

To update a previous post of mine, there are now 95.0m shares outstanding. "Others" now own a total of 35.4%. Of that, HSL owns around 12.5 percentage points (assuming all of the shares issued in 2017 were to HSL).

We're not really near any interesting thresholds in terms of shareholder rights. I guess non-HFC Holdings and HSL shareholders as a group aren't far from being able to block special resolutions on their own if they all vote together. Unless you are concerned about HFC Holdings and HSL colluding together, I don't think that matter.

[BSEJVT]

To update a previous post of mine, there are now 95.0m shares outstanding. "Others" now own a total of 35.4%. Of that, HSL owns around 12.5 percentage points (assuming all of the shares issued in 2017 were to HSL).

We're not really near any interesting thresholds in terms of shareholder rights. I guess non-HFC Holdings and HSL shareholders as a group aren't far from being able to block special resolutions on their own if they all vote together. Unless you are concerned about HFC Holdings and HSL colluding together, I don't think that matter.

Could you provide either the source document from which you extrapolated that information please or at least a link to it.

I have no doubt at all that you are correct and would like that information for future usage on another point I plan to expand upon as part of this thread

Many Thanks

[CropleyWasGod]

I use 'Petrie owns 10% of the club' as my litmus test for seeing if someone posting here has no idea what they are talking about. In reality, I own more than twice as many shares as Petrie, as do many other people.

I'm just looking at the latest list of shareholders. A few names stick out and I wondered if you, or anyone, knows who they are? They have high numbers of shares. For example:-

Almond Investments 625k
Arthur Seat Nominees 250k
Bass Rock Investments 1250k
Duddingston Nominees 625k
East Lothian Nominees 625k
Edinburgh Investments 1250k

There are many others. Whilst I'm sure the vetting process is sound, it bothers me a little in case some people are putting together a large block through the purchase of smaller ones.

[CropleyWasGod]

Could you provide either the source document from which you extrapolated that information please or at least a link to it.

I have no doubt at all that you are correct and would like that information for future usage on another point I plan to expand upon as part of this thread

Many Thanks

The Confirmation Statement near the top of this page gives a list of shareholders from December 2016.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC005323/filing-history

There are also returns of allotments of shares during 2017, which NYH has assumed (probably correctly) are all to HSL

[BSEJVT]

I'm just looking at the latest list of shareholders. A few names stick out and I wondered if you, or anyone, knows who they are? They have high numbers of shares. For example:-

Almond Investments 625k
Arthur Seat Nominees 250k
Bass Rock Investments 1250k
Duddingston Nominees 625k
East Lothian Nominees 625k
Edinburgh Investments 1250k

There are many others. Whilst I'm sure the vetting process is sound, it bothers me a little in case some people are putting together a large block through the purchase of smaller ones.

Many thanks for this.

This is essentially the information I wanted.

Your concerns are exactly the same as mine and that is another reason why I fervently believe that getting HSL to 26% shareholding ASAP is absolutely crucial.

I have no information on any of these nominees or anything to suggest that these or any other holdings are a potential threat and don't believe them to be so.

But if sold as a block they would grant the purchaser a significant interest in the club.

I would just like HSL to get to 26% to be sure that there was nothing that could harm us further down the road.

[Johnny Clash]

Have you seen the mish mash of people who own Celtic? They seem to manage. Dermot Desmond owns less than 50% of Celtic and it does not appear to worry him. Celtic fans own over 50% of their shares.
Btw, Rods 10% will be getting diluted as well unless he purchased new shares in the last offer.


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Good post.

I’m just a bit confused by those who say they are apposed to Fan ownership but are happy that Tom Farmer and Rod Petrie have significant stakes in Hibs - both of whom are also fans. It’s sounding like the opposition is to non wealthy fans who can’t afford to invest millions but who can afford a few hundred?

I’d rather see Hibs fans having a greater say in our club. Sure things are going well now but I think a lot of that is down to changes introduced by fan pressure a few years ago when things were dire.

[bigwheel]

Good post.

I’m just a bit confused by those who say they are apposed to Fan ownership but are happy that Tom Farmer and Rod Petrie have significant stakes in Hibs - both of whom are also fans. It’s sounding like the opposition is to non wealthy fans who can’t afford to invest millions but who can afford a few hundred?

I’d rather see Hibs fans having a greater say in our club. Sure things are going well now but I think a lot of that is down to changes introduced by fan pressure a few years ago when things were dire.


that's not it though is it...the concern fans have is that fan ownership a) doesn't have deep pockets in times of challenge and b) have thousands of disparate views, rather than one or two key ownership opinion and vision

not saying I disagree with you, but I can understand the nervousness about fan ownership

[blackpoolhibs]

Am i right in thinking some people are worried about who own us, when apart from the last 18 months under Farmer and Petrie, the last 10 years have been a bloody shambles?

Obviously we want the right people involved at the top, but let's not sugar coat and rewrite history under the present owners.

2 relegations and 2 cups, but a whole lot more misery than good days thats for sure.

[DarlingtonHibee]

Am i right in thinking some people are worried about who own us, when apart from the last 18 months under Farmer and Petrie, the last 10 years have been a bloody shambles?

Obviously we want the right people involved at the top, but let's not sugar coat and rewrite history under the present owners.

2 relegations and 2 cups, but a whole lot more misery than good days thats for sure.
I.... and he saved the club.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Many thanks for this.

This is essentially the information I wanted.

Your concerns are exactly the same as mine and that is another reason why I fervently believe that getting HSL to 26% shareholding ASAP is absolutely crucial.

I have no information on any of these nominees or anything to suggest that these or any other holdings are a potential threat and don't believe them to be so.

But if sold as a block they would grant the purchaser a significant interest in the club.

I would just like HSL to get to 26% to be sure that there was nothing that could harm us further down the road.

I don't know how many shares are owned by small timers like me ... but for my own part I wouldn't sell my shares, or allow them to be used for voting purposes, to anybody I thought would damage the club and I would hope the vast majority of small shareholders would be the same.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I use 'Petrie owns 10% of the club' as my litmus test for seeing if someone posting here has no idea what they are talking about. In reality, I own more than twice as many shares as Petrie, as do many other people.

You must be very clever ....... how does failure to differentiate between Petrie owning 10% of Hibs and Petrie controlling 10% of HFC Holdings mean that folk trying to ask questions about the future of the club still cant be asking valid questions and be making valid points?

A lot of the folk posting on here don't know the full ins and outs of the situation, that's why they are asking questions and conjecturing as to the future of the club and that includes me.

[BSEJVT]

I don't know how many shares are owned by small timers like me ... but for my own part I wouldn't sell my shares, or allow them to be used for voting purposes, to anybody I thought would damage the club and I would hope the vast majority of small shareholders would be the same.

Right now my broad guesstimate is:

10% held by nominees

13% HSL

11% wee guys like you and I

I agree entirely that us wee guys would never sell ours but would like HSL to get to 26% to counterbalance the 10% held by nominees for the reasons I have explained in a previous post.

[SirDavidsNapper]

Anyone else had an email from HSL saying they're improving the website? At least it's something!

[Ronniekirk]

Anyone else had an email from HSL saying they're improving the website? At least it's something!

Nope Whats needed is for Leeanne to get a wee ThinkTank group together and give this a new injection of Life
We are third in the League have biggest crowds sins early 70 s
If we cant capitalise on it now we never will


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[CropleyWasGod]

Nope Whats needed is for Leeanne to get a wee ThinkTank group together and give this a new injection of Life
We are third in the League have biggest crowds sins early 70 s
If we cant capitalise on it now we never will


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIt's not really her call. Although she is on the Board, she takes a back seat to others.

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[ano hibby]

This is the email I just received:

At our recent AGM we received feedback from our Members in relation to our Website. We have been very conscious of it’s shortcomings and have tried on more than one occasion to garner help from technically minded Hibs supporters. Unfortunately well intended promises have failed to reach fruition and as a result of, and with the support at the AGM, we have commissioned a Firm to undertake a review of our site and develop a new one fit for purpose. We have already briefed this Firm on our technical requirements with a view to automating many activities but we want to make sure from a creative perspective it looks the part. With this in mind we would welcome any thoughts, pictures or graphics that you think would be appropriate. In particular we want to reach out to our younger supporters. All contributions will be gratefully received.

Please also find HERE the minutes from our recent AGM.

While we may not have had much to report over the last number of months we do intend to “relaunch” and hope to welcome many more Members going forward.

Kenny MacAskill
Chairman

[1875STEVE]

From the email


The Proclaimers gifted 5,000 shares of the club to the HSL.

HSL has 12% stake

HSL has raised just shy of £500,000.

1650 members.

* SD confirmed that following many failed offers of help with our web site the Board had
proposed to spend up to £5000 on an external Firm to complete this task. The Meeting shared
this view whole heartedly

[Ronniekirk]

It's not really her call. Although she is on the Board, she takes a back seat to others.

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Shes got the Midus Touch I want this to grow ,so why not use the best assets you have


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[CropleyWasGod]

Shes got the Midus Touch I want this to grow ,so why not use the best assets you have


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Part of the reason she doesn't get involved more is because of her potential conflict of interest. I think she will probably stand down when HSL get to 20% (?) and they can get their own reps on the club Board.

Besides, she's got enough on her plate with her day job.:greengrin

[nonshinyfinish]

If anyone's trying to compile a full list, I own 0.0053% of the club. :aok:

[malcolm]

BHFC

There are not many who would disagree with your comments, particularly this year. Prior to this we have :

1. Engaged with fans in the East,West and Famous Five stands in the form of Pop up Stands and a physical presence.

2. At the same time as item 1 distributed over 10,000 leaflets on match days.

3. Contacted all Supporter Branch's offering our attendance and presentation. We have attended when invited at both Sunnyside and individual branches and Pubs.

4. Canvassed support on both major Club Forums.

5. Sought free PR in both print media and broadcast.

Have we got all of this right on all occasions - absolutely not. We have done relatively well on Facebook and Twitter but not very well on our Web site.

We have commissioned an outside Firm to develop a new web site and will be inviting Members to contribute their ideas.

Ultimately however it is for each individual supporter to determine their own financial position and decide if the want to make what is essentially a voluntary contribution to their Club.
Interesting that I can't recall much of anything in the media but in contrast FoH's effective failure to deliver any ownership gets trumpeted as a success phenomenon in supporter ownership modelling. So is this a difference in the approaches to the media or in the media's approach to HSL?

Ps I'd like to increase the minimum I pay in but I have no idea how to achieve this!

[SunshineOnLeith]

Am i right in thinking some people are worried about who own us, when apart from the last 18 months under Farmer and Petrie, the last 10 years have been a bloody shambles?

Obviously we want the right people involved at the top, but let's not sugar coat and rewrite history under the present owners.

2 relegations and 2 cups, but a whole lot more misery than good days thats for sure.

2 relegations in the last ten years? I mustn't have been paying enough attention.

[jacomo]

If anyone's trying to compile a full list, I own 0.0053% of the club. :aok:


Excellent. Can I count on your support for my consortium?

:wink:

[jacomo]

Am i right in thinking some people are worried about who own us, when apart from the last 18 months under Farmer and Petrie, the last 10 years have been a bloody shambles?

Obviously we want the right people involved at the top, but let's not sugar coat and rewrite history under the present owners.

2 relegations and 2 cups, but a whole lot more misery than good days thats for sure.


We'll probably never agree on this but...

Under Farmers ownership, there is a fairly healthy Hibs with a big support still playing at Easter Road, in a rebuilt stadium. And those cups. And we never ripped anyone off to do it.

I know where Hibs should be. I also know where we have been.

In the grand scheme of things, he's been a great owner. And Petrie is his chosen man.

[brog]

Admins, can we please change the title of this thread. There's absolutely nothing to verify the statement re failure of HSL.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Admins, can we please change the title of this thread. There's absolutely nothing to verify the statement re failure of HSL.

Yes a bit offside in my opinion. Was it just being deliberately provocative to stimulate debate? The OP doesn’t appear to favour fan ownership so does that not mean that success for HSL would be not what he wanted either?

I think ithat fan ownership question however has shone a light as to why some folks may be holding back. But really how can something that has grown to have was it 2000 contributors and revenues from the club that previously were not there be deemed a failure? And was
Not HSL money credited in helping secure one of our targets?

[MWHIBBIES]

Am i right in thinking some people are worried about who own us, when apart from the last 18 months under Farmer and Petrie, the last 10 years have been a bloody shambles?

Obviously we want the right people involved at the top, but let's not sugar coat and rewrite history under the present owners.

2 relegations and 2 cups, but a whole lot more misery than good days thats for sure.Is it? We've had as many good seasons as bad ones. Majority has been average.

I trust both of them considerably more than anyone else mentioned or the prospect of fan ownership.

[BSEJVT]

Yes a bit offside in my opinion. Was it just being deliberately provocative to stimulate debate? The OP doesn’t appear to favour fan ownership so does that not mean that success for HSL would be not what he wanted either?

I think ithat fan ownership question however has shone a light as to why some folks may be holding back. But really how can something that has grown to have was it 2000 contributors and revenues from the club that previously were not there be deemed a failure? And was
Not HSL money credited in helping secure one of our targets?

I have already said that the thread title was being deliberately provocative in order to stimulate debate and thankfully it seems to have worked.

I doubt it would have had the same impact if I had titled it anything else.

It also seems to have galvanised HSL into a flurry of activity which was another of its aims.

Just this morning I received an e-mail as a lapsed subscriber inviting me to restart, this should have been done and should continue to be done whenever a member meets their minimum commitment and their direct debit cancels.

FYI, I had simply recontributed afresh to ensure contributions continued.

HSL themselves admit that they could have done so much better.

As for fan ownership, it means different things to different people.

HSL themselves have stated their ambition is to own 26% of the shares and I absolutely support them in that endeavour.

We no longer have 2000 contributing members, it was before this thread started around 1650.

The purpose of this thread was to shine a light on the fact that for a multitude of reasons HSL had hit a wall and that FOH for another multitude of reasons was forging ahead and was to try and get the topic of HSL back on the agenda

My personal target in this was initially to try and drive the number of contributing members back over 2000 and to reach that 26% barrier by the end of the decade.

But we must have greater ambition than that in the medium term.

If you can afford to, and only if you can afford to, please either start, restart or increase your contributions to HSL

[Ronniekirk]

Apart from for Personal Financial reasons it would be good to know why people stopped making contributions
And to hear from people that aren't making contributions about why they aren't
If we dont understand those These issues its difficult to know what to do next that will encourage growth
I have said it before a Team like Hibs with current Support should be able to outperform Motherwell and St Mirren yet both have more members than us


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[nonshinyfinish]

Excellent. Can I count on your support for my consortium?

:wink:

Of course, but act fast. I used to own 0.0074%, but the pricks keep creating more shares! :grr:

[JimboHibs]

Apart from for Personal Financial reasons it would be good to know why people stopped making contributions
And to hear from people that aren't making contributions about why they aren't
If we dont understand those These issues its difficult to know what to do next that will encourage growth
I have said it before a Team like Hibs with current Support should be able to outperform Motherwell and St Mirren yet both have more members than us


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HSL felt like a scam as soon as they used it as a bribe for loyalty points .....thats why I don't make any contributions.

[StevieCowan]

HSL felt like a scam as soon as they used it as a bribe for loyalty points .....thats why I don't make any contributions.

Knowingly giving funds to your football club, when you are in no doubt that it doesn't represent any personal monetary value to you, doesn't constitute a scam.

The Loyalty Points question has been done to death. It doesn't exist anymore.

[BSEJVT]

HSL felt like a scam as soon as they used it as a bribe for loyalty points .....thats why I don't make any contributions.

Okay

That backfired spectacularly and lessons have been learned

That issue is in the distant past

Will you contribute now?

If not what will it take you to do so?

What can be a scam about donating money to enable a supporters group to acquire a significant shareholding in the club which will be there for all time to provide a blocking vote against anything and anyone acting not in the club's interests?

[JimBHibees]

HSL felt like a scam as soon as they used it as a bribe for loyalty points .....thats why I don't make any contributions.

Dont think that was the smartest move but a scam really. :rolleyes:

[Ronniekirk]

HSL felt like a scam as soon as they used it as a bribe for loyalty points .....thats why I don't make any contributions.

It was what prompted me to join Took me months to get my points sorted out and on the system Had no sooner done that and it was abolished
But i continue to contribute for the Greater Good of the Club i love and support


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