Annual Accounts - The failure of HSL

[Bostonhibby]

Of course, but act fast. I used to own 0.0074%, but the pricks keep creating more shares! :grr:Could we all get together and form the 1% ers? Probably never get there but it's living the dream[emoji6]

Sent from my SM-J320FN using Tapatalk

[Billy Whizz]

Knowingly giving funds to your football club, when you are in no doubt that it doesn't represent any personal monetary value to you, doesn't constitute a scam.

The Loyalty Points question has been done to death. It doesn't exist anymore.
It’s still on HSL website

http://www.hiberniansupporters.co.uk/phone/member-benefits.html

[Leithenhibby]

Interesting that I can't recall much of anything in the media but in contrast FoH's effective failure to deliver any ownership gets trumpeted as a success phenomenon in supporter ownership modelling. So is this a difference in the approaches to the media or in the media's approach to HSL?

Ps I'd like to increase the minimum I pay in but I have no idea how to achieve this!


Just sign in to your Go-Cardless account and you can edit it there.

GGTTH

[blackpoolhibs]

2 relegations in the last ten years? I mustn't have been paying enough attention.

Read it again.


We'll probably never agree on this but...

Under Farmers ownership, there is a fairly healthy Hibs with a big support still playing at Easter Road, in a rebuilt stadium. And those cups. And we never ripped anyone off to do it.

I know where Hibs should be. I also know where we have been.

In the grand scheme of things, he's been a great owner. And Petrie is his chosen man.

We agree at last.

[blackpoolhibs]

Is it? We've had as many good seasons as bad ones. Majority has been average.

I trust both of them considerably more than anyone else mentioned or the prospect of fan ownership.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hibernian_F.C._seasons

Since 1990 we have had 6 seasons where weve finished 4th or better, anything less in my opinion is a failure.

Constant under achievement and 2 relegations might be ok for you, but i think we should have done better. I do see the good things that have been done, the training centre and the stadium are top notch, and a credit to them.

Crowds are up, and things right now are brilliant, i couldn't be more happy with how we are progressing.

I wont change my opinion of the past just because we are doing well now though.

[malcolm]

Just sign in to your Go-Cardless account and you can edit it there.

GGTTH

Sounds simple but not being a merchant or recipient of the payments made, there does not appear to be any customer log in nor means to edit the amount. I can cancel via my bank but from what I can determine it is up to the recipient to facilitate change.... which is where I came in ... course happy to be educated otherwise :greengrin

[OfficialHSL]

Sounds simple but not being a merchant or recipient of the payments made, there does not appear to be any customer log in nor means to edit the amount. I can cancel via my bank but from what I can determine it is up to the recipient to facilitate change.... which is where I came in ... course happy to be educated otherwise :greengrin

Malcolm

Just email us at [email protected] and we will be delighted to alter it at our side.

HSL

[Gogs07]

Just signed up to the monthly contribution again, after receiving an e-mail reminder after paying the initial £225.
I'm not available to make all the home games, so this is my way of given something for the benefit of our glorious club!
It was painless enough and all Hibs fans should consider signing up, if they can afford to?. :hibees

[malcolm]

Malcolm

Just email us at [email protected] and we will be delighted to alter it at our side.

HSL
Cheers - i had asked by email in the past and was directed to my bank or gocardless and when that was a dead end I had just given up. Happy to try again :greengrin

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Apart from for Personal Financial reasons it would be good to know why people stopped making contributions
And to hear from people that aren't making contributions about why they aren't
If we dont understand those These issues its difficult to know what to do next that will encourage growth
I have said it before a Team like Hibs with current Support should be able to outperform Motherwell and St Mirren yet both have more members than us


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How do the overall contributions stack up - ie is it more folks paying less or is it more folks paying more?

Where do you go with this tho - do you (like some charities tactics) try to entice existing folks to pay more (I think that can have an overall nagative
Effect on goodwill if not carefully handled.

[BSEJVT]

How do the overall contributions stack up - ie is it more folks paying less or is it more folks paying more?

Where do you go with this tho - do you (like some charities tactics) try to entice existing folks to pay more (I think that can have an overall nagative
Effect on goodwill if not carefully handled.

The first aim must be to get those that have completed their minimum contributions and have had their direct debits cancelled recontributing, I have seem umpteen post on various threads over the years with folk wanting / offering to do so.

Thankfully HSL have grabbed this particular bull by the horns and have asked people to consider recontributing.

The next thing is to keep HSL in the limelight and encourage those who may contribute for the first time to do so.

We can help facilitate this (as this thread was intended to do) by debunking some of the myths and misunderstandings around HSL and answering questions people may have about contributing or contributing again.

My personal opinion is that it is great that folk want to increase their contributions but shouldn't be browbeaten into doing so and consequently it should be entirely voluntary on their part and instigated by them not HSL.

The big thing for me is to get HSL back on the agenda and back being discussed and we can each play a part in this by discussing the issue and asking those that we know that don't or haven't contributed to reconsider.

I don't want us looking back in years to come when FOH's money gives them an advantage over us and regretting our complacency now.

I want us to keep sticking it to them for decades to come and like it or not finance plays a huge part in this.

Do what you can to promote HSL, but give only what you can comfortably afford.

[BSEJVT]

Official HSL

Can you update this thread with whatever changes have been made in relation to number of people contributing / increased contributions since this thread started and keep doing so on a weekly basis please?

I desperately want us to get back over 2000 contributors in the short term and the surest way I know of doing this is to let people see progress as it generates its own momentum.

You only have to look at the various season ticket and match threads to see the galvanising effect it has.

At the very minimum regular updates should help keep the topic in mind.

Thanks

[Monktonhall 7]

The first aim must be to get those that have completed their minimum contributions and have had their direct debits cancelled recontributing, I have seem umpteen post on various threads over the years with folk wanting / offering to do so.

Thankfully HSL have grabbed this particular bull by the horns and have asked people to consider recontributing.

The next thing is to keep HSL in the limelight and encourage those who may contribute for the first time to do so.

We can help facilitate this (as this thread was intended to do) by debunking some of the myths and misunderstandings around HSL and answering questions people may have about contributing or contributing again.

My personal opinion is that it is great that folk want to increase their contributions but shouldn't be browbeaten into doing so and consequently it should be entirely voluntary on their part and instigated by them not HSL.

The big thing for me is to get HSL back on the agenda and back being discussed and we can each play a part in this by discussing the issue and asking those that we know that don't or haven't contributed to reconsider.

I don't want us looking back in years to come when FOH's money gives them an advantage over us and regretting our complacency now.

I want us to keep sticking it to them for decades to come and like it or not finance plays a huge part in this.

Do what you can to promote HSL, but give only what you can comfortably afford.

I don't post that often, but I think you need to be applauded for helping reinvigorate HSL. Any penny the club can get over and above Season Tickets etc is a massive boost, and if fans are able to affford a little bit extra, then it's for the good of HFC. Your posts have suddenly put HSL back on the map and raised awareness. I remember after completing my £225 contribution receiving an e mail from HSL asking me to continue with the payments, which I did, but I can't believe the numbers that have been allowed to slip through.

Hopefully we are going to continue seeing HSL communicating regularly and subscribers increasing.:flag:

[BSEJVT]

I don't post that often, but I think you need to be applauded for helping reinvigorate HSL. Any penny the club can get over and above Season Tickets etc is a massive boost, and if fans are able to affford a little bit extra, then it's for the good of HFC. Your posts have suddenly put HSL back on the map and raised awareness. I remember after completing my £225 contribution receiving an e mail from HSL asking me to continue with the payments, which I did, but I can't believe the numbers that have been allowed to slip through.

Hopefully we are going to continue seeing HSL communicating regularly and subscribers increasing.:flag:

Thanks

That's really kind of you

All that matters is Hibs and that we give the team the best chance of competing on the park whilst securing the long term future of the club by getting HSL to 26%.

All I want is for folk to keep HSL in mind if they have a few quid they can spare each month and to keep HSL at the forefront of our discussions on Hibs

[basehibby]

Note 20 Analysis of Cash flows

Hibs received £150,000 in the last financial year from the Issue of Ordinary Shares

Now I know many will be along to tell me that at least Hibs supporters or HSL own some share whereas the Gunts don't.

But on the back of respective achievements / performances of the last 3 or 4 seasons how the ****ing hell can FOH be raising virtually 10 times what we are, it is an absolute disgrace.

I know many will be along to tell me they either paid up or died and I get that.

I also get that we may never match them for that reason

But it is ridiculous the disparity.

I moan about it all the time and get criticised by many for doing so which is fair enough, the question is what can be done about it!

The Yams' big take up of Foundation of Hearts' pay-now-shares-later initiative is massively influenced by the fact that they all know that the existence of their club has depended on their investment.

I have seriously considered buying shares - and may yet do so in future - but have decided to spend my limited funds on supporting the team directly with an ST for the time being. I'm pretty sure that if Farmer was to announce "buy the club or it goes to the wall" then there would be a similarly enthusiastic take up from Hibs fans to the Yams. Like I said I am interested in buying shares but don't see any rush and will not push the boat out - like most folk I have lots of competing priorites for spending my money.

NB - by extension I do not consider an extra £150K in the club's coffers to be any kind of failure. On the contrary! If HSL keep reminding us all occasionally and a similar amount is achieved year on year then it's all good!

[BSEJVT]

The Yams' big take up of Foundation of Hearts' pay-now-shares-later initiative is massively influenced by the fact that they all know that the existence of their club has depended on their investment.

I have seriously considered buying shares - and may yet do so in future - but have decided to spend my limited funds on supporting the team directly with an ST for the time being. I'm pretty sure that if Farmer was to announce "buy the club or it goes to the wall" then there would be a similarly enthusiastic take up from Hibs fans to the Yams. Like I said I am interested in buying shares but don't see any rush and will not push the boat out - like most folk I have lots of competing priorites for spending my money.

NB - by extension I do not consider an extra £150K in the club's coffers to be any kind of failure. On the contrary! If HSL keep reminding us all occasionally and a similar amount is achieved year on year then it's all good!

Thanks for your reply

As it doesn't cover any points that haven't already been addressed on the thread I wont respond to them specifically, unless you want me to?

The one thing I would say again though is that in my view there is a big danger that FOH which was born out of adversity and consequently had much more immediate traction will one day hand them a substantial on-field advantage over us.

Again in my view we can step up and meet that challenge or return to a situation whereby a Hearts team with more financial muscle than us gains the upper hand on us on the pitch.

I like things just as they are just now thanks, and if this thread and folks irritation at the way I deliberately framed it is the price to be paid then so be it.

I don't think I have once suggested in this thread that folk spend money they don't have, indeed I have taken great care not to do so, if that isn't the impression folk have taken I am truly sorry.

The proposition remains the same "Do you have a few quid you can comfortably spare each month that you might consider subscribing to HSL?"

HSL by their own admission on this thread haven't done as well as they could have / should have and if this thread helps address that then it is all worth it.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Malcolm

Just email us at [email protected] and we will be delighted to alter it at our side.

HSL

my message to that particular email address back in April was completely ignored.

not having a go, I’m sure you all have lives outside of HSL, but it is disheartening for people who are eager to join and get involved to not even receive an answer to their queries

[BSEJVT]

my message to that particular email address back in April was completely ignored.

not having a go, I’m sure you all have lives outside of HSL, but it is disheartening for people who are eager to join and get involved to not even receive an answer to their queries

Unfortunately your experience is non unusual as the same thing also happened to me.

The simple truth of the matter is that HSL are massively under-resourced for the task that is being asked of them.

This is why earlier in the thread I asked that folk who might be prepared to offer some time to help pm'd me for onward transmission to HSL

Whilst its entirely possible that folk have contacted HSL directly, to date I have had one response.

We need to be careful here that we don't end up lagging miles behind the Jambos if they finally get their act together unless folk are prepared to step up to the plate either in terms of contributing to HSL (if they can comfortably afford to do so) or offering their help if they cannot.

[OfficialHSL]

It looks like HSL/share selling will have done it's job (ie 51% fan ownership) in another couple of years time. I suppose better marketting of shares could see that reduced a bit but there really isn't any point.

I fully expect that the HSL income stream will continue after the 51% deadline is reached, albeit in some other form - I know I have every intention of continuing contributions.

I also fully expect that interest in Hearts ownership will have started to dwindle long before they have acheived anything like %51 ownership - football fans are a fickle lot in my view and if they don't deliver on the pitch then AB could well be left holding the baby.
Crabis

Thank you for your support, many of our Members share your view and have already said they want to continue contributions. The FOH are already on record to say that they plan to carry on after the ownership objectives have been achieved. Why wouldn't they when they could offer the Manager an extra £1m per year for the playing budget ?

[hhibs]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hibernian_F.C._seasons

Since 1990 we have had 6 seasons where weve finished 4th or better, anything less in my opinion is a failure.

Constant under achievement and 2 relegations might be ok for you, but i think we should have done better. I do see the good things that have been done, the training centre and the stadium are top notch, and a credit to them.

Crowds are up, and things right now are brilliant, i couldn't be more happy with how we are progressing.

I wont change my opinion of the past just because we are doing well now though.


Well said blackpoolhibs.

[Nakedmanoncrack]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hibernian_F.C._seasons

Since 1990 we have had 6 seasons where weve finished 4th or better, anything less in my opinion is a failure.

Constant under achievement and 2 relegations might be ok for you, but i think we should have done better. I do see the good things that have been done, the training centre and the stadium are top notch, and a credit to them.

Crowds are up, and things right now are brilliant, i couldn't be more happy with how we are progressing.

I wont change my opinion of the past just because we are doing well now though.

Spot on, and the acceptance by many - of year after year of failure, contributed to the inevitable conclusion of us crashing out of the top league. If we had been demanding more, rather than meekly accepting years of mismanagement, a revolving door of bad appointments etc it might not have come to that.

[Hiber-nation]

Thanks

That's really kind of you

All that matters is Hibs and that we give the team the best chance of competing on the park whilst securing the long term future of the club by getting HSL to 26%.

All I want is for folk to keep HSL in mind if they have a few quid they can spare each month and to keep HSL at the forefront of our discussions on Hibs

Well done for raising this G :aok:

[BSEJVT]

Spot on, and the acceptance by many - of year after year of failure, contributed to the inevitable conclusion of us crashing out of the top league. If we had been demanding more, rather than meekly accepting years of mismanagement, a revolving door of bad appointments etc it might not have come to that.

I wouldn't disagree with your comments on those that you referenced what I would say is that we cant change the past but can change the future.

It would be helpful to this threads purpose if non HSL related discussions like this could be held on a separate thread please?

Part of the reason for the failures of the past was that we couldn't compete financially as result of the redevelopment of the infrastructure, I have no desire to revisit the rights or wrongs of that debate in this thread as it is not the purpose I had in mind in starting this thread.

What I will say though is that we run the risks of voluntarily returning ourselves to those days as a result of our complacency.

I grew up watching the Tornadoes and it never occurred to me at the time that it wasn't always going to be like that. Admittedly I was 10 at the time :-)

Things are good just now but if the lessons of the past 45 years have taught me anything it is that this wont necessarily remain the case and is unlikely to do so without action on our part.

We have an opportunity now to push on from a position of strength, but folk seek reluctant to embrace that opportunity by helping HSL.

I readily accept that many people simply cant afford to do so and there is no-one in the world who could have a problem with that.

I think with some of the others who don't support HSL that it is complacency.

But it would far more informative for HSL to know exactly the reasons that folk wont support HSL in order to see whether there is anything they can do about it.

Feel free to add them to this thread.

BTW did you know that after subscribing to HSL using the links provided earlier in the thread at the subscription rate selected that you can e-mail HSL and ask them to change your subscription to whatever you want, including as little as £1 per month.

HSL are grateful for each and every contribution and someone paying £1 isn't less valued than someone paying £100, it all goes towards the team and there is no tiered membership structure.

Hearts raise in 1 month broadly what it takes us a year to raise. I am sick hearing why that is the case as it doesn't change that it is the case and wont change when the acquire full ownership as it is very much built on the premise that contributions continue beyond that.

Thankfully HSL contributions can also now continue UFN, but we have a lot of work to do in getting those who once contributed to restart doing so and then close the gap to 8000 members

I also know that unless we step up to meet the challenge we will live to regret it in the years to come.

Do what you can to support Hibs by supporting HSL.

Your donations matter but wont individually make that significant a difference in the march towards partial fan ownership, which will happen regardless, so I would have to say that as far as I am concerned that is a smokescreen for not donating.

[djs69]

They HAD to signup or they’re club died and got to applaud them for that

[Ronniekirk]

I wouldn't disagree with your comments on those that you referenced what I would say is that we cant change the past but can change the future.

It would be helpful to this threads purpose if non HSL related discussions like this could be held on a separate thread please?

Part of the reason for the failures of the past was that we couldn't compete financially as result of the redevelopment of the infrastructure, I have no desire to revisit the rights or wrongs of that debate in this thread as it is not the purpose I had in mind in starting this thread.

What I will say though is that we run the risks of voluntarily returning ourselves to those days as a result of our complacency.

I grew up watching the Tornadoes and it never occurred to me at the time that it wasn't always going to be like that. Admittedly I was 10 at the time :-)

Things are good just now but if the lessons of the past 45 years have taught me anything it is that this wont necessarily remain the case and is unlikely to do so without action on our part.

We have an opportunity now to push on from a position of strength, but folk seek reluctant to embrace that opportunity by helping HSL.

I readily accept that many people simply cant afford to do so and there is no-one in the world who could have a problem with that.

I think with some of the others who don't support HSL that it is complacency.

But it would far more informative for HSL to know exactly the reasons that folk wont support HSL in order to see whether there is anything they can do about it.

Feel free to add them to this thread.

BTW did you know that after subscribing to HSL using the links provided earlier in the thread at the subscription rate selected that you can e-mail HSL and ask them to change your subscription to whatever you want, including as little as £1 per month.

HSL are grateful for each and every contribution and someone paying £1 isn't less valued than someone paying £100, it all goes towards the team and there is no tiered membership structure.

Hearts raise in 1 month broadly what it takes us a year to raise. I am sick hearing why that is the case as it doesn't change that it is the case and wont change when the acquire full ownership as it is very much built on the premise that contributions continue beyond that.

Thankfully HSL contributions can also now continue UFN, but we have a lot of work to do in getting those who once contributed to restart doing so and then close the gap to 8000 members

I also know that unless we step up to meet the challenge we will live to regret it in the years to come.

Do what you can to support Hibs by supporting HSL.

Your donations matter but wont individually make that significant a difference in the march towards partial fan ownership, which will happen regardless, so I would have to say that as far as I am concerned that is a smokescreen for not donating.

Am with you all the way on this I already contribute a monthly amount and have a season ticket for the first time in ages
Will pm you as happy to do anything i can to help out even though i live in Paisley


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Firestarter]

For years and years and just look at the James Collins thread all we have went on about is how they where spending money they didn't have, neglected the stadium and training ground as a comfort zone when we sold our best players to finance such stuff and they had the better team on pitch.

Now we are ahead of them on the pitch, no longer they don't have the cheating financial advantage YET the majority of our support is happy for them to gain a financial advantage over us for the future years to come by letting them contribute money into their club monthly and aren't willing to do similar.

I don't care if the excuse "they had to" they don't any more yet their support to their club is dwarfing what we give ours. Why? Why sit there and let this happen? Just as the Hibernian board sat for 10 years, took our support for granted and ended up relegated.

The club is doing brilliantly just now, longer picture we could get bigger and stronger and the potential is there. HSL was launched for perhaps negative reasons but now it could be used as a massive positive.

[BSEJVT]

They HAD to signup or they’re club died and got to applaud them for that

Heard it before.

We laugh at them for their 5-1 comfort blanket but for far too many Hibs Supporters the fact that they HAD to is our comfort blanket and is continuously trotted out as an excuse why they don't contribute.

They might have HAD to at the outset by they don't have to any longer, that immediate danger has passed, they are now doing it because they WANT to.

Its only relevance to us is that in the years to come it will give them a huge advantage unless we step up to the plate.

I would rather applaud our support for doing something they didn't have to and for rallying behind the team because they WANTED to.

But is seems many are unwilling to do so.

[BSEJVT]

Well done for raising this G :aok:

Cheers J

It's time to stand up and be counted

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" Edmund Burke

[SunshineOnLeith]

Heard it before.

We laugh at them for their 5-1 comfort blanket but for far too many Hibs Supporters the fact that they HAD to is our comfort blanket and is continuously trotted out as an excuse why they don't contribute.

They might have HAD to at the outset by they don't have to any longer, that immediate danger has passed, they are now doing it because they WANT to.

Its only relevance to us is that in the years to come it will give them a huge advantage unless we step up to the plate.

I would rather applaud our support for doing something they didn't have to and for rallying behind the team because they WANTED to.

But is seems many are unwilling to do so.

Christ, do we need an excuse not to join HSL, now? It's bad enough having to explain every non attendance at a match to the uberfan police.

[BSEJVT]

Christ, do we need an excuse not to join HSL, now? It's bad enough having to explain every non attendance at a match to the uberfan police.

No you don't need an excuse, I don't think anyone is asking for one from you? Don't join if you don't want to, its up to you.

It's bloody typical of the mentality of some Hibs Supporters that they would take the time to criticise something they weren't interested in being part of rather than accept that it was for the common good and let folk trying to get behind the club, get on with it.

Thanks for your input though.

[Brooster]

They HAD to signup or they’re club died and got to applaud them for that

Yawn. That ship has sailed. Forget about them and focus on us.

[WhileTheChief..]

I’m not a supporter of fan ownership. You asked for reasons why so here’s mine, although I’m sure it’s been mentioned before.

My worry is that when we achieve whatever % is required and HSL move to have votes as to who gets apppnted to the board.

To me this wil simply result in one or two popular Hibs fans getting the nod in much the same way as our existing fan reps were appointed.

No qualifications or experience but popular in the Hibs club or on Facebook just doesn’t cut it for me.

I see zero benefit to being fan owned other hand being able to say it’s so.

What would change? Would it lead us to the promised land? What exactly is the end game once it’s achieved?

If HSL was a vehicle for fans to contribute extra without any shares being dished out then fine. For those that want to pay more then crack on.

I don’t want to pay any more than the 2 STs I buy each year. I won’t apologise for that, I’m doing my bit.

I admire those of you who feel so passionately about this but you have to accept that out of 16k + fans there are going to be numerous different opinions.

I hope this doesn’t start to create a divide amongst fans. “I’m a better fan than you because...”!!

Peace.

[Michael]

I’m not a supporter of fan ownership. You asked for reasons why so here’s mine, although I’m sure it’s been mentioned before.

My worry is that when we achieve whatever % is required and HSL move to have votes as to who gets apppnted to the board.

To me this wil simply result in one or two popular Hibs fans getting the nod in much the same way as our existing fan reps were appointed.

No qualifications or experience but popular in the Hibs club or on Facebook just doesn’t cut it for me.

I see zero benefit to being fan owned other hand being able to say it’s so.

What would change? Would it lead us to the promised land? What exactly is the end game once it’s achieved?

If HSL was a vehicle for fans to contribute extra without any shares being dished out then fine. For those that want to pay more then crack on.

I don’t want to pay any more than the 2 STs I buy each year. I won’t apologise for that, I’m doing my bit.

I admire those of you who feel so passionately about this but you have to accept that out of 16k + fans there are going to be numerous different opinions.

I hope this doesn’t start to create a divide amongst fans. “I’m a better fan than you because...”!!

Peace.

But the point is that all fans want to act in the best interests of the club. We won't agree on every little thing, but it's a hell of a lot better than having no control of the club and potentially having some dodgy character come in and destroy the club.

I don't see fan ownership as a way to take the club to the next level, but a way to ensure we never end up in the wrong hands.

[Bostonhibby]

I’m not a supporter of fan ownership. You asked for reasons why so here’s mine, although I’m sure it’s been mentioned before.

My worry is that when we achieve whatever % is required and HSL move to have votes as to who gets apppnted to the board.

To me this wil simply result in one or two popular Hibs fans getting the nod in much the same way as our existing fan reps were appointed.

No qualifications or experience but popular in the Hibs club or on Facebook just doesn’t cut it for me.

I see zero benefit to being fan owned other hand being able to say it’s so.

What would change? Would it lead us to the promised land? What exactly is the end game once it’s achieved?

If HSL was a vehicle for fans to contribute extra without any shares being dished out then fine. For those that want to pay more then crack on.

I don’t want to pay any more than the 2 STs I buy each year. I won’t apologise for that, I’m doing my bit.

I admire those of you who feel so passionately about this but you have to accept that out of 16k + fans there are going to be numerous different opinions.

I hope this doesn’t start to create a divide amongst fans. “I’m a better fan than you because...”!!

Peace.

A point of view I'd imagine many fans will respect, I do even though my motivation for remaining in HSL is different to an outright ownership model at this time.

I have wanted fans to own a meaningful share for reasons that others of a similar view have outlined too. To have a presence on the board with a shareholding behind it to offer a defence to mercer type situations and other approaches that we don't like, I guess how that person is chosen is for another day and for a wider process perhaps to be applied but my instinct is that I wouldn't see the current fans rep route as the way to go.

[BSEJVT]

I’m not a supporter of fan ownership. You asked for reasons why so here’s mine, although I’m sure it’s been mentioned before.

My worry is that when we achieve whatever % is required and HSL move to have votes as to who gets apppnted to the board.

To me this wil simply result in one or two popular Hibs fans getting the nod in much the same way as our existing fan reps were appointed.

No qualifications or experience but popular in the Hibs club or on Facebook just doesn’t cut it for me.

I see zero benefit to being fan owned other hand being able to say it’s so.

What would change? Would it lead us to the promised land? What exactly is the end game once it’s achieved?

If HSL was a vehicle for fans to contribute extra without any shares being dished out then fine. For those that want to pay more then crack on.

I don’t want to pay any more than the 2 STs I buy each year. I won’t apologise for that, I’m doing my bit.

I admire those of you who feel so passionately about this but you have to accept that out of 16k + fans there are going to be numerous different opinions.

I hope this doesn’t start to create a divide amongst fans. “I’m a better fan than you because...”!!

Peace.

Thanks for your considered reply

Firstly from my side this isn't and never should be about being a better fan, I would be horrified if I thought this was where this was going.

It is and should be a vehicle for those that want to and more importantly are able to, to voluntarily contribute monies to the club.

I hear exactly your comments on fan ownership and they are not that far removed from my position.

What I would say though is that it is coming and that there is nothing we can do about it.

Fan ownership will change very little, other than removing the possibility of going to the majority share holder for emergency funding in hard times, but it is evident by his decision to go down this route that STF, not unreasonably, isn't up for that any longer.

Effectively little will change STF and his nominees will control 49% of the share holding and there will be enough of the minor shareholders who would support his position that he will effectively retain control.

We will need to see what the election process for HSL board directors is when the time comes, I believe that there are enough good people involved around HSL that we will get a decent outcome.

I think HSL is important for 4 main reasons:

1) It raises monies for the club to help enable us to compete on the field. This will continue after the shareholding is complete and IMO it would be a great pity if folk who were prepared to consider contributing wouldn't do so until the share issue was resolved. It seems to me like cutting off their nose to spite their face

2) IMO we need to have that 26% held in a fans owned co-operative to utterly secure the ownership of the club going forward

3) We have been extraordinarily lucky to have had such a benevolent owner as STF at our helm for such a long time, but like it or not none of us live forever. I know nothing of his heirs of their intentions so am in no way casting aspirations against them, but you only need to look at Dundee United post Eddie Thomson to see what could go wrong. Diluting ownership is in everyone (including STF's interests)

4) Around 10% of the shares owned by "Hibs Fans" are owned by nominee companies. Again I know nothing of them and their intentions but it isn't too far a stretch to imagine that those shares become available in a block and suddenly someone has a significant shareholding and uses that to launch a bid. Getting HSL to 26% makes that a worthless play

[SunshineOnLeith]

No you don't need an excuse, I don't think anyone is asking for one from you? Don't join if you don't want to, its up to you.

It's bloody typical of the mentality of some Hibs Supporters that they would take the time to criticise something they weren't interested in being part of rather than accept that it was for the common good and let folk trying to get behind the club, get on with it.

Thanks for your input though.

You've spent the last ten pages asking for input from non-members, bit rich to have a whinge about someone taking the time to actually do so. The word "excuse" was lifted directly from the post I quoted.

[BSEJVT]

You've spent the last ten pages asking for input from non-members, bit rich to have a whinge about someone taking the time to actually do so. The word "excuse" was lifted directly from the post I quoted.

So your input is

"Christ, do we need an excuse not to join HSL, now? It's bad enough having to explain every non attendance at a match to the uberfan police"

You then reference one word in a 10 page debate where I said (and I stand by it) that folk use the fact they had to as an excuse as to why they didn't contribute to HSL

I have never asked for folks excuses and never will, it is up to them whether they contribute or not.

I simply make the point that using the "they had to argument" is an easy get out.

Maybe I am mistaken but the whole idea of having input is that through it we get to a point where we can benefit the club.

But if you want to moan about folks efforts to help the club crack on, its water of a ducks back.

My agenda is to have more people support HSL which will secure our long term ownership and in the short term provide more monies to the manager

If your input is as it is then I not sure what you are trying to achieve through it or what your agenda is?

[GMD]

I paid my £225 initial membership up and then became a lapsed contributor. There was a fair amount of negative chat at the time about where the money was going and then there was a stooshie about the loyalty points scheme. In general I would say the profile of HSL also dipped in the media and on social networks and I have kind of ignored it.
This thread has reawakened me however and I have been really impressed by the OP and the points you have made. The wishful thinking that the FOH money would dry up once Hearts hit the brown stuff has not happened, they know they have to keep the club going as they re-develop Tiny and then pay back AB, they have no option. I agree with the OP, the opportunity to maintain our advantage over them is now and a re-launch/rebrand/rethink of HSL is needed to achieve this.
I have had a look at the website and re-read the original Q&A’s that were held on .net and the bounce. Here are a few points from the info I have read;

Can HSL confirm that none of the money they receive from supporters to buy shares will be used to pay off the debt to the holding company?
All of the funds received from supporters will be handed to the Club. HSL in return will receive shares in HFC. The Board of HFC will use these funds as they see fit. The Club’s new mortgage will be paid, as has always been the case in the past, from all of the various income streams that the club has.

So the cash goes to the club and this is treated as ‘new money’ over and above the budgeted income Hibs have used to repay the interest free mortgage back to STF. Seems straightforward and money isn’t going straight into directors pockets.

Can my HSL membership be handed down to my family in the same way that my Hibs shares can?
Yes, subject to the normal Membership criteria being met.

Nice touch, I had forgotten about this.

Once the £2.5m has been raised, will HSL continue to seek the annual membership fee? If so, will this be done with a view to a subsequent share issue? If not, how will membership be determined?
No. HSL can only collect funds if there are shares to buy. Membership is for life subject to meeting the Membership criteria.

I hadn’t realised this, so in order for the money from HSL to continue to benefit the club once the target of 51% of available shares are with the fans (private plus HSL) a change of the Articles of Association will be required?

Are there any advantages to those like me in becoming an HSL member?
We will have a tangible influence that will be democratically governed. When we achieve a 20% stake we can elect a Director to the HFC Board. If we achieve a 26% stake we have an overall blocking vote on major issues.

Can someone explain why reaching the 26% mark is significant if Hibs had a dodgy period?

Do HSL have 51% of shares in the club allocated to them regardless of fans purchasing shares, or is 51% the total volume of shares available to all current fan ownership routes?
No, HSL does not have 51% of the shares allocated to it. Existing fans already own about 1% of the shares and a further 50% will be made available. How much HSL acquires will be determined by the take up rate of fans choosing to buy directly from the Club and the generosity and ambition of those fans choosing to donate to HSL.

Is the 51% for fans more a symbolic issue then? Is acquiring 26% and a blocking vote more important?

Will control of 51% of shares give HSL the ability to appoint directors without the consent of minority shareholders, and will HSL or an HSL-controlled board of directors have the power to remove the chairman?
HSL cannot acquire 51% shareholding as existing fans already hold around 1%, unless existing shareholders elect to sell those shares to HSL.
Should HSL achieve a 20% stake in the Club we will be able to nominate a Director to the Club Board. Should all supporters respond positively to this initiative the shareholding of HFC Holdings will be diluted down to 49%.

If/when HSL have 26% - 50% we will have 1 Director nominated to the board. STF will have, presumably, enough shares still to have a seat on the board. How would the board be nominated in order to run the club going forward?


Finally from me, as a direct result of the OP and this thread, I’ve decided to re-start my donations to HSL.

[BSEJVT]

I paid my £225 initial membership up and then became a lapsed contributor. There was a fair amount of negative chat at the time about where the money was going and then there was a stooshie about the loyalty points scheme. In general I would say the profile of HSL also dipped in the media and on social networks and I have kind of ignored it.
This thread has reawakened me however and I have been really impressed by the OP and the points you have made. The wishful thinking that the FOH money would dry up once Hearts hit the brown stuff has not happened, they know they have to keep the club going as they re-develop Tiny and then pay back AB, they have no option. I agree with the OP, the opportunity to maintain our advantage over them is now and a re-launch/rebrand/rethink of HSL is needed to achieve this.
I have had a look at the website and re-read the original Q&A’s that were held on .net and the bounce. Here are a few points from the info I have read;

Q Can HSL confirm that none of the money they receive from supporters to buy shares will be used to pay off the debt to the holding company?

A All of the funds received from supporters will be handed to the Club. HSL in return will receive shares in HFC. The Board of HFC will use these funds as they see fit. The Club’s new mortgage will be paid, as has always been the case in the past, from all of the various income streams that the club has.

Clarifying comment by poster: So the cash goes to the club and this is treated as ‘new money’ over and above the budgeted income Hibs have used to repay the interest free mortgage back to STF. Seems straightforward and money isn’t going straight into directors pockets.

Q Can my HSL membership be handed down to my family in the same way that my Hibs shares can?

A Yes, subject to the normal Membership criteria being met.

Clarifying comment by poster: Nice touch, I had forgotten about this.

Q Once the £2.5m has been raised, will HSL continue to seek the annual membership fee? If so, will this be done with a view to a subsequent share issue? If not, how will membership be determined?

A No. HSL can only collect funds if there are shares to buy. Membership is for life subject to meeting the Membership criteria.

Clarifying comment by poster: I hadn’t realised this, so in order for the money from HSL to continue to benefit the club once the target of 51% of available shares are with the fans (private plus HSL) a change of the Articles of Association will be required?

Official HSL can you answer this please?

Q Are there any advantages to those like me in becoming an HSL member?

A We will have a tangible influence that will be democratically governed. When we achieve a 20% stake we can elect a Director to the HFC Board. If we achieve a 26% stake we have an overall blocking vote on major issues.

Q Can someone explain why reaching the 26% mark is significant if Hibs had a dodgy period?

A 26% is not significant in respect of difficult trading, Official HSL can you explain in legal terms the significance of that blocking vote please?

Q Do HSL have 51% of shares in the club allocated to them regardless of fans purchasing shares, or is 51% the total volume of shares available to all current fan ownership routes?

A No, HSL does not have 51% of the shares allocated to it. Existing fans already own about 1% of the shares and a further 50% will be made available. How much HSL acquires will be determined by the take up rate of fans choosing to buy directly from the Club and the generosity and ambition of those fans choosing to donate to HSL. nb this is historic information pre HSL and subsequent share issue

Q Is the 51% for fans more a symbolic issue then?

A yes

Q Is acquiring 26% and a blocking vote more important?

AIn my view yes

Q Will control of 51% of shares give HSL the ability to appoint directors without the consent of minority shareholders, and will HSL or an HSL-controlled board of directors have the power to remove the chairman?

A HSL cannot acquire 51% shareholding as existing fans already hold around 1%, unless existing shareholders elect to sell those shares to HSL.

Should HSL achieve a 20% stake in the Club we will be able to nominate a Director to the Club Board. Should all supporters respond positively to this initiative the shareholding of HFC Holdings will be diluted down to 49%.

The appointment of the Chairman is at the discretion of the shareholders but exercised by their nominees on the board in practice, see following explanation as to how this works

If/when HSL have 26% - 50% we will have 1 Director nominated to the board. STF will have, presumably, enough shares still to have a seat on the board.

Q How would the board be nominated in order to run the club going forward?

A In my view (as in any business) control of the shares enables parties controlling them to appoint directors to the board in line with their shareholding.

The board then reach decisions (based ultimately on the percentage of the shares they control in the absence of a consensus)

Finally from me, as a direct result of the OP and this thread, I’ve decided to re-start my donations to HSL.

Many thanks for your kind words and for re-contributing I have answered in bold above those of your questions I feel confident in doing so and have reddened (is this even a word :-) ) those that Official HSL will need to pick up on

[OfficialHSL]

Doesn't that answer the proposal to the posters saying they would sign up tomorrow if it was a scheme to go right into transfer kitty?

Firestarter

Yes, we think it does. Leeann has on a number of occasions confirmed that there are a number of players in our squad who simply would not have been here without the additional funding provided by HSL donations. We would encourage everyone to spread this message. The existing principal shareholder has provided an opportunity to have proceeds from the share issue directed to the football Club, not existing shareholders. as we have said before, while money can never guarantee success it does improve our prospects.

[OfficialHSL]

I've read on here that Hearts fans would discontinue their contributions after:
- Surviving admin
- Getting promoted
- Getting beat by us
- Building their stand

The reality is both clubs have a portion of their support willing and able to contribute to their clubs over and above what they spend on season tickets. As much as many on here will be loathe to admit, Hearts & FOH are engaging these types of supporters far better than we are and reaping the benefits from doing so.

Capital Green

We completely agree.

There is little point in comparing our respective starting points as circumstances were different.

What is interesting is that after providing almost £4m of working capital to save the Club the 8000 ordinary Hearts fans voted by a majority of 97% to provide £3m towards the cost of their new stand. They did not have to do that, they could have used that £3m to complete the purchase of the Club.

We believe this is fundamentally about ambition. Football fans are notorious for having football ambitions that are greater than their finances. Our principal shareholder has supported this Club for many years and the decision taken by the Club Board almost three years ago was about giving us, the fans, the opportunity to demonstrate our ambition.

It is no secret that their is little money in Scottish Football and all Clubs ( with one exception ) find it difficult from year to year. HSL is an opportunity for fans who can spare a little extra money to help provide much needed extra financial support to our Club.

HSL

[OfficialHSL]

Correct.

I couldn't give 2 hoots about owning the club, but have contributed to HSL since day 1 and continued after the initial period expired.

It needs a straightforward relaunch to clarify that all and any money goes strictly to NL for players.

Shares "bought" as a result of Farmers largesse is a side issue.

Green Day

Many of our Members feel the same way and contribute for one simple reason, to help the Manager improve the product on the park.

We said from day one that we are not a "campaign group". The Board made the decision to issue more shares to raise capital and give fans the opportunity to take an ownership stake. What that stake is will be determined by us, the supporters. If it is of any interest, the current HSL Directors have been primarily motivated by simply getting extra funding into our Club and if possible achieving a 26% stake to help another Mercer type situation.

HSL

[OfficialHSL]

The board are enabling HSL to achieve what some posters on here are saying they want - which is simply to directly fund the playing budget via a DD.

The only real difference from what these fans want is that the scheme does something else at the same time. It is trying to safeguard the club for the future by enabling a significant proportion of its shares to be owned by fans to prevent speculative ownership by the likes of Romanov etc once Sir Tom bows out.

By issuing new shares as opposed to selling existing equity the board are doing exactly what posters above want (ie enabling monthly DDs to go directly to NLs budget) BUT AT THE SAME TIME gradually ceding ownership of the club to fans without profiting themselves.

To be frank - it's difficult to imagine how the scheme itself could be better conceived.

GreenOnions

Couldn't put it better.

HSL

[OfficialHSL]

I agree, the massive difference in numbers is a bit embarrassing to be honest. There are thousands of Hibs fans that can afford to contribute to HSL but don't. Why that is you'd need to ask them. It baffles me.

Big Franck

We have been urging fellow supporters for the last two and a half years to join HSL and many have. While there have been a number of obstacles along the way our main observation has been that most supporters are complacent. We mean that in the innocent sense. Most fans feel that the Club is awash with money and that there is no need to provide any extra help.

Of course it is true to say that the Club is financially stable however, like most other Clubs, we are competing in an environment with little commercial money circulating. Recently published Accounts for our competitors gives an idea what we are up against. Clearly many fans are already doing their best by attending games and they simply don's have any additional money. We would hope however that we do have some more fans who can and are willing to provide some additional help.

[OfficialHSL]

Many thanks for your kind words and for re-contributing I have answered in bold above those of your questions I feel confident in doing so and have reddened (is this even a word :-) ) those that Official HSL will need to pick up on

BSEJVT

Can we start of by adding our thanks for your enthusiastic support for the cause. Looking through this thread it demonstrates the benefit of such Forums. Some comments are provocative and sometimes people offer conflicting views. Above all however it seems to have helped tease out some misunderstandings about HSL and indeed about the very concept of "fan ownership".

We are delighted to report that since you started this thread we have attracted 8 new Members and 6 existing monthly contributors resuming their Direct Debits. We have also had 4 Members who had joined as a result of a lump sum choosing to initiate a regular monthly contribution.

We will continue to work through the thread to ensure that every query is answered.


HSL

[lyonhibs]

The HSL presence on this thread is great, but what's really needed (I feel) is a more visible proactive and concerted digital media presence via Facebook/Twitter etc to promote HSL on an ongoing basis.

These days, the odd email blast or article on the club website aren't going to cut it.

I get that HSL is run by volunteers and wants to keep overheads low etc but in the longer term a spot of sensible investment on the advertising and marketing side will most likely see the overall health of HSL above where it will get to with the status quo being maintained.

[BSEJVT]

BSEJVT

Can we start of by adding our thanks for your enthusiastic support for the cause. Looking through this thread it demonstrates the benefit of such Forums. Some comments are provocative and sometimes people offer conflicting views. Above all however it seems to have helped tease out some misunderstandings about HSL and indeed about the very concept of "fan ownership".


We are delighted to report that since you started this thread we have attracted 8 new Members and 6 existing monthly contributors resuming their Direct Debits. We have also had 4 Members who had joined as a result of a lump sum choosing to initiate a regular monthly contribution.

We will continue to work through the thread to ensure that every query is answered.


HSL

Official HSL

I cant tell you how happy I am to hear that this has had a positive effect which was always the intention

Especial thanks to those that have listened to the ramblings of an old man and grabbed the bull by the horns and started / restarted contributing.

Hopefully it is the start of some momentum.

All that matters is that Hibs benefit from this and continue to do so.

Lets keep this thread on the front page and keep the debate and momentum going.

GGTTH

[BSEJVT]

The HSL presence on this thread is great, but what's really needed (I feel) is a more visible proactive and concerted digital media presence via Facebook/Twitter etc to promote HSL on an ongoing basis.

These days, the odd email blast or article on the club website aren't going to cut it.

I get that HSL is run by volunteers and wants to keep overheads low etc but in the longer term a spot of sensible investment on the advertising and marketing side will most likely see the overall health of HSL above where it will get to with the status quo being maintained.

I think the problem is that folk interact on so many different media's and it is difficult to cover them all.

My children tell me that HSL's twitter and Facebook presence is pretty good, but they are not mediums that I use so I wouldn't know.

Even Hibs Net doesn't represent much of a percentage of season ticket holders / match day supporters and as I don't post on the Bounce I haven't taken this crusade their yet.

Digital Media is lost on me and much of my generation but I am sure that there must be some savvy folk out there who would be happy to donate their time to helping HSL in this area?

Feel free to PM me if there are and I will pass the details onto HSL I am happy to report that in addition to increased contribution numbers a small number of people have come forward and offered to assist HSL already