De ja vu: have we been here before ?

[Bay Area Hibees]

Brilliant start to season. Great manager and club leadership with LD.

But...have we been here before? And if so how do we make it more sustainable than the McLeish years? If we Finish 2 or 3rd do we lose top players and manger or can we retain NL and keep building?

I’d like to think we can sustain a challenge and build attendances over 5+ years. Also feels that it’s easy to get carried away and expect too much too soon.

How do you feel?

Is it realistic to keep LD and NL for a few years and become a challenger for top 3?

[NAE NOOKIE]

The Elephant in the room here is Celtic ... its great for a few seasons to challenge for the top 3 but eventually the question becomes 'where do you go from there?' ... as things stand winning the league is an impossible dream and that raises a challenge around how do you keep folk interested if 3rd or even 2nd becomes the norm.

There are only three ways out of that predicament that I can see:

1) You make the football so attractive folk will want to watch it even if we cant win the league, which is very hard to sustain over a long period, for the simple reason that if we do manage to put together such a team its best players will be pillaged before it had the chance to reach its second cup final.

2) You find a hugely wealthy person or other entity willing to bankroll the club, no strings attached, who will give us the spending power to match Celtic .... as soon as the club is majority fan owned that option is even more massively unlikely than it is just now.

3) And my personal favourite ..... You try to build a club where just being a supporter of it and the pride in that is justification enough to rock up and pay your 20 odd quid on a Saturday, where the fame and recognition of the club is built just as much around its fan culture as what it does on the park and the vast majority of fans loyalty isn't just dependant on league position or cup success ..... Of all the clubs in Scotland I would say we are as well, if not better, placed than most to get to that stage, but if it was easy everybody would be doing it and how difficult it is can be witnessed by the fact that only a handful of clubs in the whole of Europe have so far managed it.

If you want to be brutally honest about it the likelihood is that in a few years time ( a good few I hope ) this period in Hibs history will be looked upon by those lucky enough to have been part of it as something to once again aspire to ... what's happening just now crowd wise has never been the norm for Hibs since the 1950s and we will be very very lucky to sustain it. The big hope is that for so long as it does last we will be able to point to a few more cups in the bag, a nice wee pile of derby victories, and hopefully a couple of notable European results as well before 'normality' is restored.

[Real Emerald]

The Elephant in the room here is Celtic ... its great for a few seasons to challenge for the top 3 but eventually the question becomes 'where do you go from there?' ... as things stand winning the league is an impossible dream and that raises a challenge around how do you keep folk interested if 3rd or even 2nd becomes the norm.

There are only three ways out of that predicament that I can see:

1) You make the football so attractive folk will want to watch it even if we cant win the league, which is very hard to sustain over a long period, for the simple reason that if we do manage to put together such a team its best players will be pillaged before it had the chance to reach its second cup final.

2) You find a hugely wealthy person or other entity willing to bankroll the club, no strings attached, who will give us the spending power to match Celtic .... as soon as the club is majority fan owned that option is even more massively unlikely than it is just now.

3) And my personal favourite ..... You try to build a club where just being a supporter of it and the pride in that is justification enough to rock up and pay your 20 odd quid on a Saturday, where the fame and recognition of the club is built just as much around its fan culture as what it does on the park and the vast majority of fans loyalty isn't just dependant on league position or cup success ..... Of all the clubs in Scotland I would say we are as well, if not better, placed than most to get to that stage, but if it was easy everybody would be doing it and how difficult it is can be witnessed by the fact that only a handful of clubs in the whole of Europe have so far managed it.

If you want to be brutally honest about it the likelihood is that in a few years time ( a good few I hope ) this period in Hibs history will be looked upon by those lucky enough to have been part of it as something to once again aspire to ... what's happening just now crowd wise has never been the norm for Hibs since the 1950s and we will be very very lucky to sustain it. The big hope is that for so long as it does last we will be able to point to a few more cups in the bag, a nice wee pile of derby victories, and hopefully a couple of notable European results as well before 'normality' is restored.

Or maybe IF other clubs are spending within their means we will be in our normal place at the top end of the league. It’s a big IF though.

[StevieCowan]

Massive difference to every previous spell is that when a player is sold the money isn’t needed to pay a debt, build a new stand or a training centre.

That, plus 17k crowds, is why I am confident in gradual gains.

Add in that Aberdeen, Hearts and Rangers all still have either financial problems or are 10 years behind in stadium build then it’s looking positive.

[mutley]

Maybe the league is unachievable due to the grip the Celtic has, but to finish 2nd or 3rd with the chance to get a few games in Europe is what we can look forward too. I’m not claiming that we will be winning the champions league anytime soon (surely hearts have won it lately though???
But the idea that we can push for 3rd or even 2nd always gives you that glimmer of hope that we can scrape a few good wins, and maybe, just maybe, Celtic drop more silly points- even a draw here and a draw there, and who actually knows , one day it might just be possible to nick that top spot.

Who would have thought Leicester would be able to do it ??


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[superfurryhibby]

Massive difference to every previous spell is that when a player is sold the money isn’t needed to pay a debt, build a new stand or a training centre.

That, plus 17k crowds, is why I am confident in gradual gains.

Add in that Aberdeen, Hearts and Rangers all still have either financial problems or are 10 years behind in stadium build then it’s looking positive.

These are key factors for me. We have the infrastructure that others aspire to, financial and playing side well covered at the moment. Our rivals are lacking in one or another of these departments.

Whilst challenging for the league and sustaining that challenge is probably a step too far, best of the rest and good cup runs is achievable and should be what we are aiming for. The fans are supporting this team with the highest average attendances for several generations.

We have been here league wise before, under Yogi, Mowbray and McLeish over the past 20 years, but couldn't sustain it. Different times though and I think we can build on what we have and keep the momentum.

[Jack]

Being in Europe each year progressing further each year would keep the interest up.

[The Leith Dutch]

The Elephant in the room here is Celtic ... its great for a few seasons to challenge for the top 3 but eventually the question becomes 'where do you go from there?' ... as things stand winning the league is an impossible dream and that raises a challenge around how do you keep folk interested if 3rd or even 2nd becomes the norm.

There are only three ways out of that predicament that I can see:

1) You make the football so attractive folk will want to watch it even if we cant win the league, which is very hard to sustain over a long period, for the simple reason that if we do manage to put together such a team its best players will be pillaged before it had the chance to reach its second cup final.

2) You find a hugely wealthy person or other entity willing to bankroll the club, no strings attached, who will give us the spending power to match Celtic .... as soon as the club is majority fan owned that option is even more massively unlikely than it is just now.

3) And my personal favourite ..... You try to build a club where just being a supporter of it and the pride in that is justification enough to rock up and pay your 20 odd quid on a Saturday, where the fame and recognition of the club is built just as much around its fan culture as what it does on the park and the vast majority of fans loyalty isn't just dependant on league position or cup success ..... Of all the clubs in Scotland I would say we are as well, if not better, placed than most to get to that stage, but if it was easy everybody would be doing it and how difficult it is can be witnessed by the fact that only a handful of clubs in the whole of Europe have so far managed it.

If you want to be brutally honest about it the likelihood is that in a few years time ( a good few I hope ) this period in Hibs history will be looked upon by those lucky enough to have been part of it as something to once again aspire to ... what's happening just now crowd wise has never been the norm for Hibs since the 1950s and we will be very very lucky to sustain it. The big hope is that for so long as it does last we will be able to point to a few more cups in the bag, a nice wee pile of derby victories, and hopefully a couple of notable European results as well before 'normality' is restored.

Great post :)

Aside from some cup wins the main extra which I think is achievable - though exceptionally difficult - is regular participation in the group stages in Europe. The experience, the exposure and, frankly, the cash that would earn would make a big big difference.

The result against Brondby suggests that's not impossible though it would be quite the ask to keep the right people (LD, NL and key players) or to have a good system to replace them.

[calumhibee1]

Being in Europe each year progressing further each year would keep the interest up.

Agree. Getting into Europe and somehow managing to push ourselves into the group stage would be the only chance we’d really have of breaking through the glass ceiling so to speak.

[O'Rourke3]

Keep Leeanne.

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[Hibernia&Alba]

We have to accept that ultimately we are a selling club. If Lennon and our better players get a great offer, they will be off - see Sparky and Cummings. That's just the football food chain in action. Most clubs are in the same position and can never expect to build a team capable of challenging for the title; not in the modern era. The days of Aberdeen dominating Scotland or Nottingham Forest winning the European Cup are long gone. We, like 99 per cent of other clubs, can only go so far until we loser our best talent; then we risk poorer results and starting all over again. Frustrating, but it's the reality.

[The Leith Dutch]

Keep Leeanne.

Very much this.

I think with her at the helm I'm much more confident that changes will be good ones and losses will be addressed.

[G B Young]

I think there are certain parallels to be drawn with the McLeish era. Both Lennon and McLeish commanded a lot of respect as players and that seems to be something the Hibs players have responded to. Because of their reputations, both managers were/are also able to attract the sort of players to the club that lesser names would not have done. Like McLeish, Lennon knows how to handle the derby and has Hearts running scared of us.

The big difference, however, is the way the club is set up off the pitch. We still had the old main stand during the McLeish era and for all the great football and derby dominance we enjoyed back then the crowds weren't as consistently excellent as they are now. While there was more money around to pay bigger wages back then, the overall solidity we now have as a club makes me more confident we can retain a really strong presence in the Scottish game long term, rather than for a few fleeting seasons.

I think what underpins all of this is the Scottish Cup win. Wonderful as that day was, it's only since then that I think we've seen how heavily the Scottish Cup jinx weighed on everyone connected with the club. Since then we've been almost like a club reborn, with whole new winning mentality.

[poolman]

Massive difference to every previous spell is that when a player is sold the money isn’t needed to pay a debt, build a new stand or a training centre.

That, plus 17k crowds, is why I am confident in gradual gains
Add in that Aberdeen, Hearts and Rangers all still have either financial problems or are 10 years behind in stadium build then it’s looking positive.


Agree with that, allied to the fact I think that between McLeish and Stubbsy we've only had one good manager (Mowbry)

We really have had some basket cases in that time, Butcher, Calderwood and Blobby spring to mind

[Michael]

Agree with that, allied to the fact I think that between McLeish and Stubbsy we've only had one good manager (Mowbry)

We really have had some basket cases in that time, Butcher, Calderwood and Blobby spring to mind

Unfair to group Williamson with them. I didn't enjoy his spell as manager, but we were pretty comfortably mid table.

[Lago]

We have to accept that ultimately we are a selling club. If Lennon and our better players get a great offer, they will be off - see Sparky and Cummings. That's just the football food chain in action. Most clubs are in the same position and can never expect to build a team capable of challenging for the title; not in the modern era. The days of Aberdeen dominating Scotland or Nottingham Forest winning the European Cup are long gone. We, like 99 per cent of other clubs, can only go so far until we loser our best talent; then we risk poorer results and starting all over again. Frustrating, but it's the reality.
True, unfortunately.

[snooky]

It's been well covered that the Bosman ruling killed off any chance of teams like Aberdeen building a squad that would have a decent chance at achieving any European glory. Besides, the money differentials in the game today are such that billionaire backed clubs are the only ones with any chance of success.
Such is life now.

[WhileTheChief..]

This is why we need strong teams in the league. If Rangers, Aberdeen and ourselves were all taking points off Celtic then any one of us could win it.

It’s similar to Aberdeen and Dundee Utd in the 80s. Both took points off the Old Firm which helped them both to success.

[NAE NOOKIE]

This is why we need strong teams in the league. If Rangers, Aberdeen and ourselves were all taking points off Celtic then any one of us could win it.

It’s similar to Aberdeen and Dundee Utd in the 80s. Both took points off the Old Firm which helped them both to success.

Exactly this ... its not enough to have a team capable of competing for the league, you need other teams to step up against your nearest rivals. Leicester City get quoted as the example of a shock outsider, but the truth is they were assisted by the bigger clubs all having below average seasons. In the season Aberdeen last won the SPL 2nd placed Celtic lost 6 and drew 8 games, under the system at the time that was 20 dropped points, under the current system it would be 34 points ..... what odds would you get at the bookies for Celtic to drop that many points in any of the next 5 seasons?

[basehibby]

We have to accept that ultimately we are a selling club. If Lennon and our better players get a great offer, they will be off - see Sparky and Cummings. That's just the football food chain in action. Most clubs are in the same position and can never expect to build a team capable of challenging for the title; not in the modern era. The days of Aberdeen dominating Scotland or Nottingham Forest winning the European Cup are long gone. We, like 99 per cent of other clubs, can only go so far until we loser our best talent; then we risk poorer results and starting all over again. Frustrating, but it's the reality.

You're right on the whole of course - however, despite Celtic's current dominance, the chances have scarcely ever been better in my lifetime for non-OF clubs to have a chance of winning the title. YES - it would take Celtic to have a bit of a stinker of a season coinciding with another club having a great one - but up until Rangers became Sevco, if one of the OF failed then there was always the other cheek of the arse to overcome. Turnbull's Tornadoes suffered from this in the 70s - coming second three times in a row to Celtic then Rangers then Celtic. This is no longer the case and therefore the odds of an upset have been dramatically shortened - from nigh on impossible to merely very unlikely - but shortened nonetheless.

On another note, all the indications from Lennon are that he is very happy at Hibs. Nothing is forever, but I can't see him going anywhere for a good few years yet. This together with the great crowds we're getting, the lack of debt and the healthy way the club is looking off - and especially on the pitch - fill me with tremendous optimism. I honestly cannot remember a better time to be a Hibby and I'm relishing it :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Jim44]

With all due respect to LD, where exactly is she going to move on to? I somehow don’t see her moving to an ‘equivalent’ English club, and, within the Scottish scene, there’s little room for an ‘upward’ move. IMHO, her bread’s well buttered at ER for the foreseeable future. I’m not so sure about NL. By all accounts, he’s happy where he is but, who knows, a bit of sustained success with us could whet his appetite for pastures new. Let’s enjoy his input while it lasts.

[NAE NOOKIE]

With all due respect to LD, where exactly is she going to move on to? I somehow don’t see her moving to an ‘equivalent’ English club, and, within the Scottish scene, there’s little room for an ‘upward’ move. IMHO, her bread’s well buttered at ER for the foreseeable future. I’m not so sure about NL. By all accounts, he’s happy where he is but, who knows, a bit of sustained success with us could whet his appetite for pastures new. Let’s enjoy his input while it lasts.

What LD has achieved at this club in three short years is nothing short of remarkable, no she cant take all the credit, but she can justifiably claim to be the fulcrum for it. That sort of success doesn't go unnoticed and there are a number of bigger English clubs who could do with a Leann Dempster .... don't anybody kid themselves either that just because she is operating in Scotland that she will not eventually be on the radar of clubs down south, if she isn't already. Sad though I am to say it.

[Jim44]

What LD has achieved at this club in three short years is nothing short of remarkable, no she cant take all the credit, but she can justifiably claim to be the fulcrum for it. That sort of success doesn't go unnoticed and there are a number of bigger English clubs who could do with a Leann Dempster .... don't anybody kid themselves either that just because she is operating in Scotland that she will not eventually be on the radar of clubs down south, if she isn't already. Sad though I am to say it.

Fair enough. But in the unfortunate event of her moving on, I would hope that she would have positive input as to the ability and quality of her successor.

[Jack]

What LD has achieved at this club in three short years is nothing short of remarkable, no she cant take all the credit, but she can justifiably claim to be the fulcrum for it. That sort of success doesn't go unnoticed and there are a number of bigger English clubs who could do with a Leann Dempster .... don't anybody kid themselves either that just because she is operating in Scotland that she will not eventually be on the radar of clubs down south, if she isn't already. Sad though I am to say it.

I see what you're saying but disagree to a point.

The English clubs that are currently a bit of a mess and could do with LD are in a mess because they have interfering owners who change things at a whim.

It's the freedom to do her own thing at Hibs that has made Leeann and Hibs flourish.

[GreenNWhiteArmy]

Taking the work LD/RP/GC/STF etc have done in building infrastructureand latterly the transformation to the footballing side of the operations (thepromotion DVD was an amazing insight in to the changes brought the club in thatrespect) aside, and the obvious factor of being successful it strikes me the make-upof our squad.

Without intending to come across in any way as racist, thecore of our playing squad is a mixture of young Scottish players mixed withexperienced internationals – it’s a squad that we can relate to. We’ve had a fewplayers that have come through the academy recently (Lewy/PH/Cummings) supplemented byother young and hungry Scottish players (Murray/Boyle/SJM/Keatings /Dylan) withexperienced British players that know about Hibernian FC(Fonts/Gray/Mcgregor/Bartley/Thomson) so when you add in the internationalfootballers (Marciano/Efe/Whitty/Stokes etc) then you’ve got a fantastic mix ofyouth and experience. Even the loans and flair players we’ve brought in havelargely bought in to the club (Hendo/Malonga)

These to me are the biggest factors in us feeling a sense ofbelonging and giving the players 100% support.
We’re gonna lose our best managers, we’re gonna lose ourbest players. That’s a fact. It’s how we replace them that will shape thefuture. The best way I believe, and aposter touched on it above, to engage the fans is to continue with the theme ofyoung, hungry Scottish players supplemented with experienced British basedplayers. If we can continue to play fast attacking play with a realisticexpectation from the fans then there’s no reason why we cant build a model thatis successful and gives hungry youngsters a chance. Continuing with 16k plus crowds will support that model but its a chicken and egg scenario. Both really need to intertwine

Celtic will drop a level once BR leaves unless they replacehim with another manager who’s probably a cut above this level. So won’t go therest of our life’s unbeaten, we just need to make sure we’re one of they teams that’sin right behind them when they do.

[Sas_The_Hibby]

Think we're getting a bit ahead of ourselves here. Don't get me wrong: I'm very happy with where we are at the moment but this is our first season back in the Premiership and we've just had a run of four wins on the trot. However that doesn't mean we're yet seriously challenging for the league, or anywhere near it.

I think Lennon's done a fantastic job and yes, given a couple of breaks, we could have been top of the league at this point but Aberdeen, Motherwell and Sevco could probably all say the same. Lennon knows this and we're going in the right direction but the realistic fact, as others on here have said, is that there is a glass ceiling in Scottish football. Like others, I'm just enjoying having a sense of pride in the team and the club. Long may it continue.

[Bristolhibby]

The Elephant in the room here is Celtic ... its great for a few seasons to challenge for the top 3 but eventually the question becomes 'where do you go from there?' ... as things stand winning the league is an impossible dream and that raises a challenge around how do you keep folk interested if 3rd or even 2nd becomes the norm.

There are only three ways out of that predicament that I can see:

1) You make the football so attractive folk will want to watch it even if we cant win the league, which is very hard to sustain over a long period, for the simple reason that if we do manage to put together such a team its best players will be pillaged before it had the chance to reach its second cup final.

2) You find a hugely wealthy person or other entity willing to bankroll the club, no strings attached, who will give us the spending power to match Celtic .... as soon as the club is majority fan owned that option is even more massively unlikely than it is just now.

3) And my personal favourite ..... You try to build a club where just being a supporter of it and the pride in that is justification enough to rock up and pay your 20 odd quid on a Saturday, where the fame and recognition of the club is built just as much around its fan culture as what it does on the park and the vast majority of fans loyalty isn't just dependant on league position or cup success ..... Of all the clubs in Scotland I would say we are as well, if not better, placed than most to get to that stage, but if it was easy everybody would be doing it and how difficult it is can be witnessed by the fact that only a handful of clubs in the whole of Europe have so far managed it.

If you want to be brutally honest about it the likelihood is that in a few years time ( a good few I hope ) this period in Hibs history will be looked upon by those lucky enough to have been part of it as something to once again aspire to ... what's happening just now crowd wise has never been the norm for Hibs since the 1950s and we will be very very lucky to sustain it. The big hope is that for so long as it does last we will be able to point to a few more cups in the bag, a nice wee pile of derby victories, and hopefully a couple of notable European results as well before 'normality' is restored.

Two words - Leicester City.

It is possible. IMHO them winning the Premiership was just as unlikely as Hibs winning the SPL.

J

[Hibernia&Alba]

Two words - Leicester City.

It is possible. IMHO them winning the Premiership was just as unlikely as Hibs winning the SPL.

J

Of course it was, but those events are once in a blue moon: it was Leicester's only league title in their history. Anything can happen, but it's a huge long shot. A team of Leicester's stature a very unlikely to win the league for a long, long time.

[jgl07]

Periods of non-OF success in Scotland have coincided with one or other of uglies being badly run. Preferably both. At the moment Rangers are a basket case on and off the field but Celtic are remarkably well run in financial terms as well as recruiting decent players.

Instances of both being run badly at the same time have been few and far between. Hibs in the late 1940s to early 1950s, Hearts & Dundee in the late 1950s to early 1960s, and Aberdeen & Dundee United in the late 1970s and early 1980s provided the only tangible dents in the duopoly in 100 years.

OK Motherwell had a League win in the 1930s and Aberdeen in the 1950s but otherwise the OF monopolised the League in most cases without having to use their financial muscle. (That is apart from Hearts' double year in 1986!)

On a more positive note, the difference between Hibs now and under McLeish is that the supporters are turning up. HIbs had a very good (and very expensive) team under McLeish. He was pleading with the supporters to turn out in greater numbers but it didn't happen. When the old Main Stand was demolished, the reduced capacity was never tested despite the team finishing third, and running second for some of the season and reaching the Cup Final. Attendances improved the next season but still not enough to pay the wages of the team. It was no surprise that McLeish jumped when the opportunity came.

Then after the brief Sauzee period, Williamson arrived with a brief to cut the wage bill dramatically and the rest is history.

[Phil MaGlass]

I have a feeling Lennon will stay for a good few years, he seems happy, and is enjoying his gig. He is in no rush, he seems (to me anyways) to be trying to build something here, once he hits his ceiling, he will eventually move on. Enjoying yir fitba is a big part of it, of course bigger challenges aswell.

[MartinfaePorty]

The other thing is TV money. We're at such a relative low, there's not the chance of having to drastically cut our player budget if anything changes, as happened in the disastrous post-Sky Setanta period. I would actually hope TV revenue might increase if we market the product properly.

[Geo_1875]

While we may not be in a position to win the league we are definitely strong enough to make 2nd or 3rd place a regular occurrence.

Our biggest challenge will not be keeping Aberdeen at bay but fighting off The Rangers and Hertz when they stop paying the bills again.

You know they shouldn't but they will. It's in their blood.