Play better without stokes ?

[dp00]

Do we play better without stokes ? I like stokes but we certainly appear to play better without him. If you look at the beginning of the season and now


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[hibbysam]

Do we play better without stokes ? I like stokes but we certainly appear to play better without him. If you look at the beginning of the season and now


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Stokes started every game from the 2nd game of the season onwards, so if we played well early doors then he was part of it. What I would say is he is not a lone striker, whereas Murray can play that role. It just depends whether any system can include both players.

[R'Albin]

I think it's more to do with having two natural wide men in Barker and Boyle playing up next to him which Stokes didn't always have.

However, with two goals and an assist since coming in Murray should be ahead of him until his form drops. And we certainly shouldn't change our shape to accommodate both.

[Fritz]

I think it's more to do with having two natural wide men in Barker and Boyle playing up next to him which Stokes didn't always have.

However, with two goals and an assist since coming in Murray should be ahead of him until his form drops. And we certainly shouldn't change our shape to accommodate both.

Spot on.

[matty_f]

I think it's more to do with having two natural wide men in Barker and Boyle playing up next to him which Stokes didn't always have.

However, with two goals and an assist since coming in Murray should be ahead of him until his form drops. And we certainly shouldn't change our shape to accommodate both.



Good post.

[Glory Lurker]

Uh oh.

[lucky]

If Stokes is fit he plays. He’s our best forward and has played well this season.

[Golden Bear]

I think it's more to do with having two natural wide men in Barker and Boyle playing up next to him which Stokes didn't always have.

However, with two goals and an assist since coming in Murray should be ahead of him until his form drops. And we certainly shouldn't change our shape to accommodate both.

That's the way I see it. The balance of the team is all important.

[lord bunberry]

If Stokes is fit he plays. He’s our best forward and has played well this season.

Correct

[Unseen work]

IMO stokes is a very good player but wants to come far too deep to receive the ball and impact the game. Similar to Rooney when he played the 9. Leaving us with no one in the box or up top to hit.

Murray has no interest coming short and knows his strengths is his running power. He will run the channels, go in behind and cause a threat to the opposition all game.

Stokes was hardly banging them in before his injury so it’s Murrays position to lose.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I think it's more to do with having two natural wide men in Barker and Boyle playing up next to him which Stokes didn't always have.

However, with two goals and an assist since coming in Murray should be ahead of him until his form drops. And we certainly shouldn't change our shape to accommodate both.

I agree ... we seem to have found a formula at the moment which has resulted in three very good results, why change it?

[Crab apple]

I agree ... we seem to have found a formula at the moment which has resulted in three very good results, why change it?

That's where I'm at. Same team on Saturday unless injuries force changes.

[hibby6270]

Think it’s fair to say the 2 wide men strategy in the last few games has worked better when Stokes hasn’t been the lone front man. Better playing the team where each individual plays to their strength and if that means Stokes not playing then so be it.

That’s not to say Stokes won’t play again once he’s fit. He’ll always do a job in a different formation which we’re bound to use in future games. But I think it proves we can be successful with or without him. Just hope he sees the benefit for the greater good of the team.

[lord bunberry]

We had the very same debate with the goalkeepers a few weeks ago. Lennon stuck with the player who was holding the jersey and it backfired. I doubt he’ll make the same mistake twice.
It’s a great position to be in and I’m not fussed who he goes with on Saturday.

[hfc-1875]

Murray over stokes for me, imo if stokes doesn't score in a game he doesn't offer too much else to the team. Where's as I feel Murray can still have a good game without scoring with his work rate etc.

[Nicho87]

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[WhileTheChief..]

Be good to see how the team performs with Stokes replacing Murray and everything else staying the same.

No problem with either of them starting and the other coming off the bench. Cracking position to be in.

Lennon seems to have found a formation and style he likes and he can just swap players without changing the system. It’s the same for pretty much every position on the pitch, we’ve got good cover in all areas.

[ancient hibee]

I think it's more to do with having two natural wide men in Barker and Boyle playing up next to him which Stokes didn't always have.

However, with two goals and an assist since coming in Murray should be ahead of him until his form drops. And we certainly shouldn't change our shape to accommodate both.
Lennon frequently changes the shape,for example against Motherwell when Barker played at the point of a diamond and Boyle upfront.We have lots of good players who can play different systems,the whole point of a squad.

[beensaidbefore]

That's where I'm at. Same team on Saturday unless injuries force changes.

Exactly. Very impressed by the last two results off the back off the derby 'hype'. That's usually when we fall on our face. 3rd in the league at start of November is better than I anticipated,especially after the Aberdeen defeat.

[beensaidbefore]

Murray over stokes for me, imo if stokes doesn't score in a game he doesn't offer too much else to the team. Where's as I feel Murray can still have a good game without scoring with his work rate etc.

I agree.

[emerald green]

Lennon frequently changes the shape,for example against Motherwell when Barker played at the point of a diamond and Boyle upfront.We have lots of good players who can play different systems,the whole point of a squad.

:agree: Spot on.

[G B Young]

IMO stokes is a very good player but wants to come far too deep to receive the ball and impact the game. Similar to Rooney when he played the 9. Leaving us with no one in the box or up top to hit.

Murray has no interest coming short and knows his strengths is his running power. He will run the channels, go in behind and cause a threat to the opposition all game.

Stokes was hardly banging them in before his injury so it’s Murrays position to lose.

Eight goals so far is pretty decent. I know Murray has scored more, but Stokes was a big help to him during the League Cup group games. I don't think we could expect Murray to shoulder the main striker role all season, which was why I was absolutely delighted when we signed Stokes and I'm confident both will continue to prove their worth in their different ways.

[cmcd]

Murray over stokes for me, imo if stokes doesn't score in a game he doesn't offer too much else to the team. Where's as I feel Murray can still have a good game without scoring with his work rate etc.

Doesn't offer too much ?? What planet are you on ?

[Borderhibbie76]

Doesn't offer too much ?? What planet are you on ?Was just about to say the same mate ...what a ridiculous comment

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[Mikey09]

Doesn't offer too much ?? What planet are you on ?


Exactly. Stokes keeps the ball better than Murray for starters. Murray is a grafter and is getting better all the time. But stokes is by far the better finisher. There's room for both in the team with Stokes playing behind Murray, his best position in my opinion.

[wfortune]

Exactly. Stokes keeps the ball better than Murray for starters. Murray is a grafter and is getting better all the time. But stokes is by far the better finisher. There's room for both in the team with Stokes playing behind Murray, his best position in my opinion.I agree with this.

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[renato]

Murray’s characteristics allow him to play the lone striker very well and changes the whole dynamic of the team. When Lennon wants to play a front 3, it’s more likely Stokes will play left instead of Barker, in probably his strongest position.

It’s great having all these options, when fit - it’s exactly why we’ve assembled a strong squad.

[poolman]

Murray over stokes for me, imo if stokes doesn't score in a game he doesn't offer too much else to the team. Where's as I feel Murray can still have a good game without scoring with his work rate etc.



Holy Moly 😟

[Winston Ingram]

I think it's more to do with having two natural wide men in Barker and Boyle playing up next to him which Stokes didn't always have.

However, with two goals and an assist since coming in Murray should be ahead of him until his form drops. And we certainly shouldn't change our shape to accommodate both.

Agree with the wide men part.

I also think a big part of it is getting our best midfielders playing in the right position in a 3. Dylan is not playing on the left or as a 10, he is playing where he should be.

[sean04]

Stokes is a class act. Only difference between the team now and the team a few weeks ago is the ball is hitting the net now. Totally dominated games against Dundee and st.johnstone without getting the rewards. Stokes and Murray both have a huge part to play this season. Really hoping big Dave can chip in aswell

[jacomo]

Stokes started every game from the 2nd game of the season onwards, so if we played well early doors then he was part of it. What I would say is he is not a lone striker, whereas Murray can play that role. It just depends whether any system can include both players.


Stokes played as lone striker in his breakthrough season at Falkirk. He was the focal point of our attack in his first season with us, often with Riordan playing off him. I think he can play that role!

It was Lennon who often played him wide left at Celtic.

[Brightside]

In a 442 id always plays Stokes, in a 451 it would be Murray. Stokes is more like an old number 10 these days. Great player next to another striker but wasted when he is the one up top.

[Pretty Boy]

Murray is a better lone striker, Stokes is a better striker in a partnership.

The way we played against Hearts and last night probably suits Murray better as he tends to play further forward and be in a position to get on the end of what the wide players offer. Stokes tendency is to drop deep and that often leaves us with nothing to aim at in the middle. I also think Murrays running helps stretch the game and creates space for midfielders to burst into from deep.

[Andy74]

Murray is a better lone striker, Stokes is a better striker in a partnership.

The way we played against Hearts and last night probably suits Murray better as he tends to play further forward and be in a position to get on the end of what the wide players offer. Stokes tendency is to drop deep and that often leaves us with nothing to aim at in the middle. I also think Murrays running helps stretch the game and creates space for midfielders to burst into from deep.

Spot on.

[Stuart93]

Forms increased since murrays came back in, don't see any reason to change it just yet

[hibbysam]

Stokes played as lone striker in his breakthrough season at Falkirk. He was the focal point of our attack in his first season with us, often with Riordan playing off him. I think he can play that role!

It was Lennon who often played him wide left at Celtic.

That’s all well and good if you’ve got players in and around him, but when your playing with a midfield of Bartley McGinn Slivka and McGeough, none of them are supporting midfielders. Now with the two wingers getting closer to our striker then it’ll suit him better. It’s no surprise Stokes’ best games for us this season were early on when he was playing beside Murray.

[number9dream]

Forms increased since murrays came back in, don't see any reason to change it just yet

Would it be worth considering resting Marv or even McGinn, if his thigh problem is an issue, against Dundee and dropping Stokes in behind Simon?

[Clerie Green]

Does anybody else think that we appear to be getting better results and playing better as a team without him ?:flag:

[oneone73]

Does anybody else think that we appear to be getting better results and playing better as a team without him ?:flag:

Does anybody else think people should check to see if there's already a thread on their subject before starting a new one?

[Oscar T Grouch]

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?325825-Play-better-without-stokes&p=5207969#post5207969

Here you go 😉

[Ian Cathro]

I'd start both on Saturday with Stokes coming in for Marv. As much as I love Marv I don't see his role being necessary.

Rocky
Gray/Whit Efe Hanlon Stevenson
Boyle Dylan SJM Barker
Stokes
Murray

[Hibbyradge]

Does anybody else think people should check to see if there's already a thread on their subject before starting a new one?

Has anyone else had two on the go at the same time?

[Clerie Green]

Does anybody else think people should check to see if there's already a thread on their subject before starting a new one?


Sin sear apple oggies .
New to this and still trying to learn the system.

[oneone73]

Sin sear apple oggies .
New to this and still trying to learn the system.

Sorry, bud. Didn't mean to be arsey.

[Brightside]

I'd start both on Saturday with Stokes coming in for Marv. As much as I love Marv I don't see his role being necessary.

Rocky
Gray/Whit Efe Hanlon Stevenson
Boyle Dylan SJM Barker
Stokes
Murray


Id rest SJM for Stokes.

[JDHibs]

In the current formation that Lennon is playing, we are better with Murray up top. More of a target. Better movement, better energy and you cant really complain at 2 goals and an assist in 3 games. Plus 3 wins and 3 clean sheets. With murrays pressing it means defenders dont get the chance to play out from the back easily which stokes allowed teams to do.

Stokes isnt a lone front man. Hes brilliant with someone beside him. Hes still our best striker technically but even he has to wait until Murrays form drops before being let back in.

[Onion]

No chance of Stokes not playing for Hibs when fit, irrespective of how well we do without him. He's a top player and it is up to Lennon to find a system that gets the best out of him and the team with him in it.

[greenlex]

Reading between the lines of Lennon post match interview Stokes will be back when fit. It’s a good point about defenders not getting time to distribute accurately with Murray in the side and will be interesting to observe the coming games.

[andybev1]

Stokes is a class act. Only difference between the team now and the team a few weeks ago is the ball is hitting the net now. Totally dominated games against Dundee and st.johnstone without getting the rewards. Stokes and Murray both have a huge part to play this season. Really hoping big Dave can chip in aswell

It think we are hitting the back of the net more because we are playing with more pace and the other team are unable to get so many people behind the ball. With small marginal differences we are getting the run of the ball that we did not get before, especially at the back.

Totally agree that the whole squad can contribute to the games ahead and I also hope big dave gets the chance to show what he can do - cannot be much fun to come on with a couple of minutes to go.

[TelaStella]

We play better when stokes isn't stuck upfront by himself, after all we did beat the Huns with him in the side. I like what Murray has been doing recently though and would hope he gets to keep his place for the next few games at least.


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[Smartie]

The games when Stokes found himself isolated up front on his own were against Aberdeen and Celtic, by far the strongest 2 teams in the league. I suspect Murray might well have found himself isolated in those games.

Against most opposition Stokes would be supported by the 2 wide men and by at least one of the central midfielders, so I wouldn't read too much of our recent change in fortunes as simply being down to Murray coming in for Stokes (although I would say that Murray's pace and energy have come in very handy).

[Borderhibbie76]

The games when Stokes found himself isolated up front on his own were against Aberdeen and Celtic, by far the strongest 2 teams in the league. I suspect Murray might well have found himself isolated in those games.

Against most opposition Stokes would be supported by the 2 wide men and by at least one of the central midfielders, so I wouldn't read too much of our recent change in fortunes as simply being down to Murray coming in for Stokes (although I would say that Murray's pace and energy have come in very handy).Superb post mate well said [emoji106]

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[midfield_maestro]

Murray over stokes for me, imo if stokes doesn't score in a game he doesn't offer too much else to the team. Where's as I feel Murray can still have a good game without scoring with his work rate etc.

some people have no idea what they are watching

[Iggy Pope]

It's a squad game and Lennon is repeating after every game that we are a bit thin. They've all got a part to play and change to the starting XI won't be down to choice soon. It'll be down to necessity. Couple of players looked tired last night, hence the limited training? Rest and getting the right food into them according to the man that knows.And he knows.

[WhileTheChief..]

^^^Agreed.

It’s why clubs try to have strong squads. Imagine supporting one of the big English clubs, they have top players on the bench regularly.

This debate was always going to happen. It’ll be the same when McGregor is fit again. Should he start? Who gets dropped? Who’s better?

I’m just happy to have a strong squad and I’m definitely not going to start putting some of our players down in favour of others.

Murray and Stokes are both good Hibs players and will contribute to a successful season. Lennon will get it right more often than not when choosing who plays up front.

[The Harp Awakes]

No chance of Stokes not playing for Hibs when fit, irrespective of how well we do without him. He's a top player and it is up to Lennon to find a system that gets the best out of him and the team with him in it.

Bang on the money there. Stokes is a class act and has been brilliant for us this season. One of the first names on the team sheet for me.

[heretoday]

[QUOTE=dp00;5207969]Do we play better without stokes ? I like stokes but we certainly appear to play better without him. If you look at the beginning of the season and now


QUOTE]

I would say so but he's a strong player to bring on.

[The Green Goblin]

I agree ... we seem to have found a formula at the moment which has resulted in three very good results, why change it?

This is my view of it too.

[HoboHarry]

This daftie at the Scotsman clearly reads .net and can't think up his own stories lol.......

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/hibernian/are-hibs-better-without-anthony-stokes-in-the-starting-xi-1-4604514

[ancient hibee]

Summary of article,search me.Waste of space.

[Phil MaGlass]

I think it´s great we have such good replacements for injured players at the moment, this will come in very handy as the season rolls on.

[jax67]

Stokes started every game from the 2nd game of the season onwards, so if we played well early doors then he was part of it. What I would say is he is not a lone striker, whereas Murray can play that role. It just depends whether any system can include both players.

Would love to see us play 3-5-2, it would accommodate
both strikers, the hard part is who would play the wingback roles?

[andybev1]

Would love to see us play 3-5-2, it would accommodate
both strikers, the hard part is who would play the wingback roles?

Don't think we can justfy having three in defence. I think if we are going with Murray and Stokes up front then the best way to do it without losing the speed we are playing with too much is to take out barker and have Stevenson making the runs to get crosses in.

Barker is great but it is unlikely that we will have him for the long haul.

[IGRIGI]

I'd probably swap Barker for Stokes when he's back and have Barker come on as an impact sub.

[Tornadoes70]

I wouldn't change a winning team that's so full of confidence and one that's getting so much fruit from having Boyle and Barker out wide.

GGTTH

[Smartie]

I wouldn't change a winning team that's so full of confidence and one that's getting so much fruit from having Boyle and Barker out wide.

GGTTH

Me neither.

The same team, with Stokes chomping at the bit to come on, make and impact and win his place back would suit me fine today.

I do think we'll need to use our subs wisely, some players are starting to tire later in games. The International break will help a bit, but possibly not Paul Hanlon and John McGinn if they get a run for Scotland.

[Big L]

I hope we play the same team and the same system, this team deserves it. Stokes should be on the bench and if we are playing well and winning he should stay there, unless, we are that far in front Lennon wants to give him the last 15 min's.

[ancient hibee]

I wouldn't change a winning team that's so full of confidence and one that's getting so much fruit from having Boyle and Barker out wide.

GGTTH
Except that against Motherwell neither played out wide.It was a completely different system which of course is what a good squad is for.

[Thegreenside]

Except that against Motherwell neither played out wide.It was a completely different system which of course is what a good squad is for.

For the first 30 mins then they went wide

[hibeemikey21]

I think the answer is clear as day now.....

Changed the game for us today

[neil7908]

I think the answer is clear as day now.....

Changed the game for us today

Yup, Murray was horribly isolated in the first half but Stokes coming on was the catalyst for our victory.

I don't really think either player thrives up top on their own. They need some support.

[California-Hibs]

What a cross he put in for Murray’s Winner. Outstanding quality!

[The Harp Awakes]

What a cross he put in for Murray’s Winner. Outstanding quality!

Stokes is class.

[Carheenlea]

Outstanding performance from Stokes today - such an intelligent player and he caused Dundee no end of problems. The ball for Murray's winner was worth the ticket money alone.

[Heisenberg]

He’s the best we’ve got up front and must play when fit.

[HibsNutter]

Hahahahahaha. There is your answer. Stokes won us that game.

[bigwheel]

Hahahahahaha. There is your answer. Stokes won us that game.

Exactly...close thread. [emoji3]


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[gazzag70]

Hahahahahaha. There is your answer. Stokes won us that game.
100%

[BSEJVT]

Murray over stokes for me, imo if stokes doesn't score in a game he doesn't offer too much else to the team. Where's as I feel Murray can still have a good game without scoring with his work rate etc.

IMO you have this completely back to front

Stokes is a far better all round footballer than I had previously given him credit for.

I wouldn't criticise Murray as his effort is great and he is scoring goals but he isn't remotely as good a footballer as Stokes (who btw set up his goal in a plate) is

[ronaldo7]

Stokes is class.

Always has been. He's our best striker without a shadow of a doubt.

Class will always out.

Well done Stokesy.

[ancient hibee]

Stokes is the most intelligent footballer in the team.If Murray can earn from him and look up sometimes instead of blazing away from poor angles we could get a lot of goals from them.

[wookie70]

Played very well today but it only really worked when the formation changed in the second half. That gave him freedom to drift to his favoured left wing position and because Murray was on the park someone to actually hit in the middle. Great ball for the goal and he played some excellent passes today. I was glad Lennon stuck with the team as it shows if you are winning and playing well you will keep your place. I'm also glad that we have a formation that could work very well for us that gives Murray, Boyle and Stokes the chance to play together. They will be by far our main goalscorers this year.

[lord bunberry]

Rather than comparing them, we should be looking at both of them playing. Stokes played Murray in loads of times today. They seem to compliment each other really well. Stokes likes to drop off and Murray likes to run in behind. Perfect combination for me.

[Andy74]

Hahahahahaha. There is your answer. Stokes won us that game.

Played a part, yes. We have won the previous three as well mind you. Didn’t think we played particularly well today at any stage, with or without Stokes.

[my left peg]

Played a part, yes. We have won the previous three as well mind you. Didn’t think we played particularly well today at any stage, with or without Stokes.I thought we played well in the second half when we changed to 3 5 2....took the game to Dundee

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[Andy74]

I thought we played well in the second half when we changed to 3 5 2....took the game to Dundee

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Certainly better, yes.

[erin go bragh]

The poster that said Stokes for Barker . Second half with Stokes on the left and Murray through the middle won us the game . Wee Boyler was different class all game .

[beensaidbefore]

Happy to have been proven wrong today. Let's hope we can keep it up. Not sure u can remember us winning 4 top flight games in a row for a long time, if at all.

[greenlex]

Played a part, yes. We have won the previous three as well mind you. Didn’t think we played particularly well today at any stage, with or without Stokes.
Disagree. I thought we had long spells in the second half when we were very good. Certainly well in control of the game and unlucky not to score at least another two.

[renato]

The poster that said Stokes for Barker . Second half with Stokes on the left and Murray through the middle won us the game . Wee Boyler was different class all game .

I watched Barker struggle down at Killie and Stokes best position is that inside left, with freedom to roam, hence why I thought Lennon would make that change (actually thought it would be from the start rather than mid game, though).

Those 2 plus Boyle on the right is an absolute goldmine for us and a complete headache for the opposition, with the option of Barker off the bench whilst the remaining 2 can pretty much interchange every position. One more quality striker in Jan (or big Dave becomes a player) and we’re laughing.

[Big L]

Until yesterday, I wasn't sure Stokes and Murray complimented each other. I certainly got that wrong. I thought Stokes was immense, some brilliant passes. He should have been on the score sheet, he wasn't off side and Simon should have squared it for another. Can't wait for the next instalment. Just a thought, if he keeps this up he might make the Irish squad!

[BlackSheep]

I have missed their partnership... you could see it developing at the start of the season then we hit a run of form with just 1 up top and it seemed difficult to get them both on the park at the same time... as was demonstrated yesterday, it took us losing one of our best midfielders to put Stokes on, then the formation change in the second half suited them being up top together. Stokes is the playmaker and Murray knows where to be... Then Murray drags defenders away with his pace and runs leaving Stokes space to do something himself... it’s turning into a perfect partnership.