Are the old firm partly to blame for our international decline?

[Hibrandenburg]

Just talking about where Scottish international football has gone wrong and the consensus in our group is that the old firm are partly to blame. How many promising talent has been snapped up by them only to end up getting splinters in their erses and then get sold on to lower league English clubs and become journey men?

[HoboHarry]

Does that not happen in other countries? I've said it before but Andy Roxburgh was predicting 30 years ago what is happening now and he got chased. Our game needs to be revamped from top to bottom but no-one will act.

[heretoday]

It's the death of the tanner ba' player that did it. That and stopping kids playing football under the street lights.
We'll never see another Jimmy Johnstone or Denis Law.

[snooky]

It's the death of the tanner ba' player that did it. That and stopping kids playing football under the street lights.
We'll never see another Jimmy Johnstone or Denis Law.

Spot on, HT. Kids today have other distractions. They play all their sports with their thumbs.

[Tornadoes70]

Just talking about where Scottish international football has gone wrong and the consensus in our group is that the old firm are partly to blame. How many promising talent has been snapped up by them only to end up getting splinters in their erses and then get sold on to lower league English clubs and become journey men?

There is no 'Old Firm'. Truth dictates there is only Celtic 1888 and Rangers 2012. How does that equate to an 'Old Firm'.

[Scottie]

Does that not happen in other countries? I've said it before but Andy Roxburgh was predicting 30 years ago what is happening now and he got chased. Our game needs to be revamped from top to bottom but no-one will act.
:agree: SFA are the square route of the problem with the whole infrastructure of our nations game. Where are all the indoor pitch's that were promised in the 80s and 90s and the extra coaches that were promised ? Nothing has changed in the 40 years I've been on earth and the same will be said in another 40 tears. More sad times ahead I'm afraid.

[GreenCastle]

Old Firm
The SFA
Crap coaching in the system
Poor advice when players are developing (parents / lack of parents / academy coaches / agents etc)

Culture - compare it to NZ playing rugby - we don't have an indentity

Players that are also thick - other nations understand the game better - you only have to watch the interviews after the games and players have much more intellect compared to what we have. Hard work and fitness can only get you so far.

That's just a start of what's wrong with mens football in this country..

[Liberal Hibby]

I think the Old Firm's ability to sweep up and spit out talent is just a symptom of the decline. The disease is the SFA - their incompetence, bias and innate conservatism. Without a clearout of the deadwood at the top the game won't progress domestically or internationally.

[Tornadoes70]

Old Firm
The SFA
Crap coaching in the system
Poor advice when players are developing (parents / lack of parents / academy coaches / agents etc)

Culture - compare it to NZ playing rugby - we don't have an indentity

Players that are also thick - other nations understand the game better - you only have to watch the interviews after the games and players have much more intellect compared to what we have. Hard work and fitness can only get you so far.

That's just a start of what's wrong with mens football in this country..

Another one that just glibly states the 'Old Firm'?

How come. When Rangers died in 2012?

How is it still known as the 'Old Firm'?

Please?

[Scorrie]

Spot on, HT. Kids today have other distractions. The play all their sports with their thumbs.

But what about Icelandic kids? Irish kids? Welsh kids etc? They countries qualify for tournaments. I think Scotland does produce decent players in my view. It’s just that our set ups are wrong and facilities aren’t that good

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Its too simplistic to blame them.

Truth is that celtic habe developed a number of stalwarts of tge scotland team.

Likewise so did the huns when they were good in the 90s.

Of course they sign players, but the big clubs in every country do that.

Who is even to say we are that bad? We finished joint second with slovakia juat behind england. We habe no divine right to be above or better then slovakia.

Of course we could improve, but i think our expectations need to be revised as much as our game.

Also, fans and our culture are partly to blame. We do not value certain types of player, and we do others. As a country we still put way too muxh stock in 'heart' and 'passion' and technique. Until we as supporters stop collectively groaning anytime a pkayer goes backwards with the ball, we will remain an unsophisticated footballing country. We dont value technique highly enough.

[Tornadoes70]

But what about Icelandic kids? Irish kids? Welsh kids etc? They countries qualify for tournaments. I think Scotland does produce decent players in my view. It’s just that our set ups are wrong and facilities aren’t that good

What about the 'Old Firm'?

[The_Horde]

No. Lack of proper coaching is our downfall

[neil7908]

But what about Icelandic kids? Irish kids? Welsh kids etc? They countries qualify for tournaments. I think Scotland does produce decent players in my view. It’s just that our set ups are wrong and facilities aren’t that good

Exactly. Mbappe, Dembele etc have all managed to do fairly well in the game despite growing up in the age of smart phones, computer games etc.

And if comparing Scotland to France doesn't work then as you say, why aren't Icelandic kids, Northern Irish kids, Danish kids struggling in the same way ours are.

[neil7908]

In terms of the OPs original topic, I'm extremely critical of the OF and in the past there is no question they've damaged the national team but I don't think they can be blamed here.

Celtic have Leigh, Armstrong, Brown, Gordon, Tierney, McGregor and Forrest in the squad. They are giving young Scottish players a game, not just buying them up and sticking them on the bench.

Sevco are just a mess at the moment but I suspect as they begin to recover they'll have to rely more on their academy as they can't afford to spend millions on foreign imports any more.

Right now the problems in Scotland are extraordinarily complex, with many factors at play but for once, I don't think the ugly sisters can be blamed.

[mjhibby]

:agree: SFA are the square route of the problem with the whole infrastructure of our nations game. Where are all the indoor pitch's that were promised in the 80s and 90s and the extra coaches that were promised ? Nothing has changed in the 40 years I've been on earth and the same will be said in another 40 tears. More sad times ahead I'm afraid.

Sadly your 100% correct. Apart from celtic who have set up a structure so all levels of the club play the same way there is no proper structure from youngsters to adults. Coaches are still more interested in winning trophies than developing kids and having attended numerous coaching workshops there is no structure for skill development or game awareness. The lack of coaches is shocking and the volunteer coaches at youth level get given basic guidance and left to get on with it. The game is run to suit the gruesone twosome and clubs may have academies but have no patience in developing young players and of course the youngsters like Ryan porteous end up playing at clubs like Edinburgh city and no disrespect to them are only going to toughen him up rather than develop him. I could go on all day regards issues in the game but it is futile as I can't see us changing anything in my lifetime sadly.

[seanshow]

I would say yes partly but for a different reason,
If i can turn back time to 2009 pre hun/yam implosions, pre the former first ministers paper to fix football....The SPL have just taken an inordinate amount of time to bring forward a proposal and make radical changes to Scottish football, as we havnt qualified for a National team tournament for 10 years. The fans are excited,some things that seem to be a certainty are revamped bigger leagues, summer football, and indoor facilities...who knows maybe even a democratic voting system!

The year long SPL findings are revealed - A 10 team league and a 2 week winter break.


Self preservation led by the Glasgow bigots and the rest followed like sheep(no pun intended).
It was just another nail in the coffin of Scottish football, ...Another 10 years on and of the top of my head the only country that has fallen further of the football radar is Hungary.

Happy Days

[Swedish hibee]

There is no free facilities for kids to play in winter, and what kid wants to play football in the freezing cold? Where are the facilities where kids can go indoors? I know our winters are harsher than Scotland- but your weather isn't exactly tropical!

[El Gubbz]

But what about Icelandic kids? Irish kids? Welsh kids etc? They countries qualify for tournaments. I think Scotland does produce decent players in my view. It’s just that our set ups are wrong and facilities aren’t that good

Irish and Welsh kids are pretty much all brought through the Wnglish system - it’s our coaching and culture that’s to blame

[Diclonius]

Coaches who talk about players being "too small" is the problem. Too ****ing small. It's not the ****ing 70s.

[Benny Brazil]

There is no free facilities for kids to play in winter, and what kid wants to play football in the freezing cold? Where are the facilities where kids can go indoors? I know our winters are harsher than Scotland- but your weather isn't exactly tropical!

This for me is the root of the problem - the lack of decent facilities for kids and for youth clubs. Lack of open space for kids to go and kick a ball about. Where I stay just about every green bit of land is being built on, the local leisure centre has astro pitches, lies empty most of the time but it costs kids £5 to go and use it. The grass football pitch and the rugby pitch is part of planning permission to turn it into more astro pitches. If its pissing down with rain there is nowhere for the kids to go, so they will sit and play Fifa on their consoles.
I coach at school football level and trying to find decent training facilities is becoming impossible - we have plenty of kids who want to come and play (most of them have never kicked a ball before) but nowhere to train.

[itslegaltender]

I would say it's the huge rise on n disparity between English championship/league 1/2 to out Premier league in terms of wages.

Think of how many good young promising players have left our leagues in last 10 years never to be heard of again.

[superfurryhibby]

My son is 14. Very few of his pals are interested in sport and where there is involvement, it's the likes of tennis, fencing and hockey. I've deliberately encouraged him into other sports myself. Too many idiots involved in football. Did it with my eldest boy and he went through the boys club/s form system 20 years ago...... never again!

The 14 year old tells me that when they do football at PE, most of them can hardly kick a ball. Very few are interested in watching the game either. That probably tells its own story.

[The Harp Awakes]

The SFA are ultimately repsonsible for the Scottish game and they have failed big time for decades now at both national and club level. And yet we have the same culprits in charge who seem to be untouchable.

Strachan is responsible for the last 2 failures. He is a wind bag and a dinosaur along with Mark McGee. He takes no risk in fielding young players and ultimately his stubborness along with some bizarre team selections over his tenure is the reason why he has been a failure. He is only a small part of a much bigger problem though.

I really don't know where we go from here. The game is broken in Scotland. The SFA are incompetent and a bunch of cheats who can't see past Celtic and the Rangers, and yet nobody has got a backbone to instigate change. Sadly our own Club don't want to do anything about it either.

[The Spaceman]

I would almost argue on the contrary...a lot of our best young talent play for Celtic...at least if they are playing week in week out together for club, that link can filter through to country? Players like Tierney, McGregor, Armstrong (and Griffiths) are developing in a "good" team which is getting exposure to Champions League football...

[Pete]

Rather than blame any one team, I’d blame the globalisation and cutthroat nature of our club game.

Any attempts at a real solution, such as proper wealth distribution or player quotas based on nationality, will be quickly rebuffed.

[Pretty Boy]

But what about Icelandic kids? Irish kids? Welsh kids etc? They countries qualify for tournaments. I think Scotland does produce decent players in my view. It’s just that our set ups are wrong and facilities aren’t that good

Exactly. They have Playstations in the rest of the world as well.

The biggest issue imo is that promising kids just don't play enough football now. Pro clubs are terrified of missing out on the next big thing so they hoover up every player who shows a few glimpses at a young age and put them in their system. That certainly creates a nice athlete by the time they are 16/17 but most of them have barely played a competitive game of football. Mark Warburton gets a lot of stick but he was, in my opinion, correct when he ripped into the 20s league. It neither provides competitive football for young players as no one really cares about winning it nor does it prepare players for the rigours of 1st team football.

It will never happen but I'd go back to the days of S forms and have kids stay with their boys clubs playing regular football until they were at least 14 or 15.

[Onceinawhile]

Personally I'd blame the lack of facilities.

Every piece of green land seems to be getting sold off for housing and the few astroturf facilities that we do have are either hideously expensive for kids or are locked up to stop kids using them.

[keep the faith]

I actually think Scottish football is slowly improving at club level and needs nurtured. There is talent coming through as our full backs and emergence of the likes of mcginn and McGregor demonstrate.
The problem is we continue to pick guys like Martin and Mulgrew at international level.
Make no mistake, it would be those guys strachan would have sent out in any world cup we qualified for. The other home nations don't mess about. Their young players and form players get chucked right in there.

[Firestarter]

I would argue alternatively especially Celtic and they say they have their youth policy now is improving Scottish football. Nothing to do with them taking the best players at pro level, there should have been better at youth level prior to that.

[hibbycraig]

Don't think you can blame Celtic and sevco for the national team not performing. The players only have themselves to blame this time. Should of beat Lithuania and England at home. See Strachan saying we didn't qualify cos we are too small. He's and idiot. Spain won 3 in row and they are, on average, smaller than us.

[Firestarter]

A lot of our better players go down South to develop at a very early age also, so they will be just as effected as the English players with the state the EPL has on their national game now too.

[hibbiedon]

Another one that just glibly states the 'Old Firm'?

How come. When Rangers died in 2012?

How is it still known as the 'Old Firm'?

Please?
Should just be known as the bigot brothers

[Greencore]

Celtic, Sevco, English Championship, laws not allowing kids to be kids and play football outside. No where for them to play.. Sfa not introducing a rule where atleast 3 under 21 must be on bench and poor coaching is to blame.


Also the English premier league tv deal doesn't help. Some kids these days want a man city top or Chelsea top rather then a hibs, Aberdeen or Dundee top. Not to mention high ticket prices. I remember living in Ayr a few years back and wanted to see a game. They wanted £20 for Ayr vs Airdrie.. .. how can kids support there local team when prices for their dad or mum are 20 a pop...

A lot of things come into it and we need to stop looking at the models of bigger nation's and focus on smaller nations models like Norway, Holland, Belgium.. .

[1875STEVE]

Just talking about where Scottish international football has gone wrong and the consensus in our group is that the old firm are partly to blame. How many promising talent has been snapped up by them only to end up getting splinters in their erses and then get sold on to lower league English clubs and become journey men?

It's one of a number of thing, including that imo.

As someone has already said, bairns get stopped from kicking a ball about in the street now, like it or not, that's where a lot of your Dalglish's and Law's honed their skills as kids.

Add to that, there is very little facilities, and the one's there is cost a lot of money.

Also, a lot of clubs won't give youngsters a chance due to fear factor of relegation fights/loss of cash.

Then there is the manager, and before I say this it's not just been him but successive one's over the years.

They don't give talented youngsters or form players a chance, and a lot of it is due to who/where they play.

They were rather pick their faves/experience.

How many chances has the likes of Bannan, Fletcher etc had?? and we don't qualify?

How long did it take for him to play Griffiths??? Jordan Rhodes, and especially when he was at his peak hitting 20-30 goals a season, completely ignored and he continually calls up Naismith etc???

And it's not just recent, I can remember the period when Kenny Miller was smashing them in for Hibs, then Rangers (scored 5? in one game?) and Craig Brown picks bang average ***** like Kevin Gallagher & John McGinlay because they have experience.

Barry Douglas that left Dundee Utd, done brilliant in Poland, and then Turkey, can't get a sniff

Also how do the likes of Shinnie, McLean, McGinn, Hanlon, Walker, McGregor etc get overlooked?? By the time they are in, they are 25 with 5 caps....

Starchan seems to have a fave move though. He picks his squad, if he has a pull-out, he replaces them, then when game time comes round, the replacement either starts or comes on as a sub, rather than players already in the original squad...

Bannan this time, James Morrison the time before. I don't get it.

[Firestarter]

The football in the streets point is a valid one but do they play football in the streets of Iceland and the former Yugoslavian countries? Can't see it myself.

[Firestarter]

It's one of a number of thing, including that imo.

As someone has already said, bairns get stopped from kicking a ball about in the street now, like it or not, that's where a lot of your Dalglish's and Law's honed their skills as kids.

Add to that, there is very little facilities, and the one's there is cost a lot of money.

Also, a lot of clubs won't give youngsters a chance due to fear factor of relegation fights/loss of cash.

Then there is the manager, and before I say this it's not just been him but successive one's over the years.

They don't give talented youngsters or form players a chance, and a lot of it is due to who/where they play.

They were rather pick their faves/experience.

How many chances has the likes of Bannan, Fletcher etc had?? and we don't qualify?

How long did it take for him to play Griffiths??? Jordan Rhodes, and especially when he was at his peak hitting 20-30 goals a season, completely ignored and he continually calls up Naismith etc???

And it's not just recent, I can remember the period when Kenny Miller was smashing them in for Hibs, then Rangers (scored 5? in one game?) and Craig Brown picks bang average ***** like Kevin Gallagher & John McGinlay because they have experience.

Barry Douglas that left Dundee Utd, done brilliant in Poland, and then Turkey, can't get a sniff

Also how do the likes of Shinnie, McLean, McGinn, Hanlon, Walker, McGregor etc get overlooked?? By the time they are in, they are 25 with 5 caps....

Starchan seems to have a fave move though. He picks his squad, if he has a pull-out, he replaces them, then when game time comes round, the replacement either starts or comes on as a sub, rather than players already in the original squad...

Bannan this time, James Morrison the time before. I don't get it.

Mark Burchill for Scotland ahead of Kenny because he played for Celtic really annoyed me at the time.

[Smartie]

We're unbeaten in 2017 and have looked decent in our last half dozen or so games.

We just missed out on a play-off on goal difference, coming second in that group would have been a superb achievement.

We just had to play 2 games without one of our most important players (Brown) who we struggled to replace.

We have a core of good players playing regularly together for the biggest club in our country, at the highest level (Champions league).

Our team has obvious weaknesses, but we're nowhere near as bad as many are making out.

Strachan has stumbled across a fairly effective way of playing, and was a poor second half against Slovenia (when he froze and stuck with his usual, knackered favourites when the game was crying out for fresh legs) away from qualification.

Every time we crash out we do the usual soul-searching but nothing changes.

I think we need to get more kids playing regular football, and our facilities need to be better and more available.

My nephew recently swapped to a private school (he was getting battered by a kid with behavioural problems who he'd been assigned to "help") and my brother is astonished at the difference in opportunities that exist to play sport there. Sadly the sports are mainly your usual rugby, hockey, cricket, swimming etc but he gets far more opportunities to play football there too. Football was always a working class game in this country, and we have made it too difficult for working class kids to get opportunities to play football.

The more players who just play, the more they'll master the basic techniques by themselves. The best can then be coached properly, and rise to represent our National side.

But we can continue to argue about the number of teams in our top league, as we've always done.

[1875STEVE]

Mark Burchill for Scotland ahead of Kenny because he played for Celtic really annoyed me at the time.

Exactly, and there will be others who I have forgottten about.

[Smartie]

Oh, and I really don't think we can point the finger at the Old Firm too much. We've got an outstanding young player in Porteous who is just needing an opportunity. We'd rather sign Ambrose and continue to play him through a very ropey spell of form rather than give one of Scottish football's most outstanding talents a chance (which Neil Lennon is perfectly justified in doing btw). It's just that whilst we continue to do this, I don't think we should be pointing the finger at anyone.

[southern hibby]

Mixture of several factors.

SFA are more interested in Promoting the Glasgae Two than the rest of Scottish Football Combined.

We know the money is with these two clubs and players can earn more sitting on the bench at either than playing at most other clubs even when you throw in win Bonuses etc. Look at Henderson signed out abroad did well, signed out to us did well but rather sign a new contract at Celtic than sign for a team and play first team football and develope.

I would if I could get most teams affiliated with two teams abroad ( let's say Germany and Portugal ) and maybe bring their youth coaches over for a few weeks every two/three months to actually train our under 20's and swap ideas with our main coaching staff. Or alternatively send over a coach from each club to watch learn etc and bring ideas back to implement.

Our draconian attitude to not big enough and to ball retention ( ie passing the ball back ) rather than booting it into the box and hoping we get something is shocking. The height bit really annoys me as this leads to punting the ball up the park and not keeping it on the deck.

First touch from a lot of players is absolutely shocking again coaching and the desire from players to want to improve rather than vegetate on the side lines.

The biggest thing we have to change from outside of the SFA etc is our own media, more often than not most of our publicity is negative and it again is set up to Benifit the Glasgat Two by saying this player is leaving and going to rather than saying this player is having a good season but needs to stay at such and such a club and develope to reach his potential.

One last thing now that I've bored you to tears I read an article years back ( think it was from Berti Vogts ( yes I know ) but it stated that Scotland brought in young players for two three games and dropped them brought them back in later on and by the time they were 27only several international games under their belt where as the other international teams players have normally over 40-50, so our players are up against seasoned international pro's. Maybe we should pencil in more friendliest and put young lads in and let them develope this way.

GGTTH

[Brightside]

No.

As a country we do not develop good enough players. Its nowt to do with that lot and everything to do with the lack of investment in grass roots football.

[Spudster]

Spot on, HT. Kids today have other distractions. They play all their sports with their thumbs.

I always find this response frustrating. Is Scotland the only nation in the world with Playstations and Xbox?

[marinello59]

It's a problem for all sports, not just football. As a nation we watch a lot of sport but don't have nearly enough active participants. Our Goverments at Westminster and Holyrood have to shoulder a lot of the blame for that. Remember the legacy that the Olympics and the Commonwealth games were going to leave? It's largely been blown already. A joined up approach to the health of our nation would help where rather than boasts about how much money is being thrown at the NHS there is much more investment in facilities to encourage people at all stages of life to take regular exercise.

[greenlex]

It’s the Scottish drinking culture that’s caught up with us. Football has moved on from being able to have that culture and produce talent able to compete. Until that’s sorted we’re wasting our time.

[Smartie]

It’s the Scottish drinking culture that’s caught up with us. Football has moved on from being able to have that culture and produce talent able to compete. Until that’s sorted we’re wasting our time.

I don't agree with this at all.

People in their late teens/ early twenties are more health/ fitness/ appearance obsessed than ever, and boozing happens a lot less than ever before.

[greenlex]

I don't agree with this at all.

People in their late teens/ early twenties are more health/ fitness/ appearance obsessed than ever, and boozing happens a lot less than ever before.
It’s not just the drinking it’s the diet and lifestyle choices. The whole Scottish culture. Footballs moved on. We haven’t.

[where'stheslope]

I would say it's the huge rise on n disparity between English championship/league 1/2 to out Premier league in terms of wages.

Think of how many good young promising players have left our leagues in last 10 years never to be heard of again.

Great point!!!

Just look at the Yams new keeper, an Edinburgh lad who no one had ever heard of yet has played down south all his career???

We as a Nation do not have a structure or wealth to keep them, so English teams pluck them and take a chance that we just can't afford!!!

[Keith_M]

The onus for developing young players used to be at schools, where teachers often spent long hours of unpaid overtime coaching the kids.

About 30 years ago, the teachers collectively asked to be paid for this overtime, but their employers (the local authorities) wouldn't oblige. This led to a sharp decline in the amount of time spent outside of normal school hours in coaching the kids.

I don't blame the teachers for this at all, as they were well within their rights, but the SFA needed to pick up the baton, supplying alternative coaching, and failed spectacularly.


In regards to the OP; I think he has a point and I also think that in Scotland the whole world seems to revolve around the needs and wants of the Old Firm. They were the first clubs to remove reserve teams and stop giving younger players a chance, preferring to bring in often overpaid foreign players.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I wouldn't read too much into what Wales or Northern Ireland are doing ..... their relative recent success isn't based on any progressive new coaching model, in fact Wales can barely win a game when Bale is out injured. Practically every player both teams pick has come through the English system and when you look at how bang average their national team is I wouldn't say theirs is a model to follow.

Another thing we hear about is how great things are on the continent .... one of our allegedly most promising talents has been kicking it at Sporting Lisbon for the last few years, but when was the last time he earned rave reviews for the under 21s or was mentioned in the same breath as the national team? Another alleged talent Oliver Burke lasted about 5 minutes at RB Leipzig, a club noted for putting a young team onto the park, before returning to England.

Where we should certainly be paying attention is Iceland .... the performance of their national team over the last few years and their ability to bring through good footballers is nothing short of miraculous, they should be on a par with Luxembourg or Malta, but instead are a country nobody wants to see in their group ... hell. I even watched their women's team give ours a lesson a few months back.

We talk a lot about indoor facilities .... I've been to the magnificent facility at Ravenscraig 4 times now which has a full sized indoor pitch and a load of synthetic 5 a side and full sized pitches outdoors and I've yet to see a person under 18 there, at least not to play football. I don't know why that is or if its particularly significant, but it doesn't bode well if you ask me.

What we definitely need to do is find a way to encourage more kids just to to play football. I'm not all that impressed with the 'lack of facilities' stuff to be honest. When I was a kid facilities consisted of the local park and 4 jumpers and even though there was local boys clubs where most of us played organized football on most days you would still see kickabouts happening with a load of kids playing amongst themselves.

When I was a bairn I played many a kickabout on Leith links .... as far as I know its still threre, but whenever I drive along it you rarely see kids playing football.

[Blaster]

No.

As a country we do not develop good enough players. Its nowt to do with that lot and everything to do with the lack of investment in grass roots football.

At last we agree 👍

[heretoday]

It’s the Scottish drinking culture that’s caught up with us. Football has moved on from being able to have that culture and produce talent able to compete. Until that’s sorted we’re wasting our time.

You could have a point. Fathers are in the boozer instead of out kicking a ball around with the kids. They take them to Macdonalds instead of the park. We're quite lazy and hedonistic here in Scotland.

[Hibrandenburg]

Lot's of good theories on here. Makes you wonder why those with their fingers on the buttons don't press some.

[Hibrandenburg]

You could have a point. Fathers are in the boozer instead of out kicking a ball around with the kids. They take them to Macdonalds instead of the park. We're quite lazy and hedonistic here in Scotland.

Been saying similar for years. Our food and drink culture put us at a disadvantage from the start.

[Deansy]

When you have people of the 'calibre' of Regan and Doncaster as major players in our game, it's not hard to realise why it's in such a state !

[keep the faith]

Oh, and I really don't think we can point the finger at the Old Firm too much. We've got an outstanding young player in Porteous who is just needing an opportunity. We'd rather sign Ambrose and continue to play him through a very ropey spell of form rather than give one of Scottish football's most outstanding talents a chance (which Neil Lennon is perfectly justified in doing btw). It's just that whilst we continue to do this, I don't think we should be pointing the finger at anyone.

Great point re Porteous. Lennon is a winner but is a bit too obsessed by experience for me at times.

[greenlex]

Oh, and I really don't think we can point the finger at the Old Firm too much. We've got an outstanding young player in Porteous who is just needing an opportunity. We'd rather sign Ambrose and continue to play him through a very ropey spell of form rather than give one of Scottish football's most outstanding talents a chance (which Neil Lennon is perfectly justified in doing btw). It's just that whilst we continue to do this, I don't think we should be pointing the finger at anyone.
In a roundabout way we can. They are the TV draw. TV dictates 4 old firm games a season minimum. A larger league would knock that in the head and at the same time the breathing space that the so called meaningless games would offer to blood the youngsters. Managers are under pressure to get results as the league positions mean so much fir so long into the season. You can understand them relying on experience.

[Benny Brazil]

I wouldn't read too much into what Wales or Northern Ireland are doing ..... their relative recent success isn't based on any progressive new coaching model, in fact Wales can barely win a game when Bale is out injured. Practically every player both teams pick has come through the English system and when you look at how bang average their national team is I wouldn't say theirs is a model to follow.

Another thing we hear about is how great things are on the continent .... one of our allegedly most promising talents has been kicking it at Sporting Lisbon for the last few years, but when was the last time he earned rave reviews for the under 21s or was mentioned in the same breath as the national team? Another alleged talent Oliver Burke lasted about 5 minutes at RB Leipzig, a club noted for putting a young team onto the park, before returning to England.

Where we should certainly be paying attention is Iceland .... the performance of their national team over the last few years and their ability to bring through good footballers is nothing short of miraculous, they should be on a par with Luxembourg or Malta, but instead are a country nobody wants to see in their group ... hell. I even watched their women's team give ours a lesson a few months back.

We talk a lot about indoor facilities .... I've been to the magnificent facility at Ravenscraig 4 times now which has a full sized indoor pitch and a load of synthetic 5 a side and full sized pitches outdoors and I've yet to see a person under 18 there, at least not to play football. I don't know why that is or if its particularly significant, but it doesn't bode well if you ask me.

What we definitely need to do is find a way to encourage more kids just to to play football. I'm not all that impressed with the 'lack of facilities' stuff to be honest. When I was a kid facilities consisted of the local park and 4 jumpers and even though there was local boys clubs where most of us played organized football on most days you would still see kickabouts happening with a load of kids playing amongst themselves.

When I was a bairn I played many a kickabout on Leith links .... as far as I know its still threre, but whenever I drive along it you rarely see kids playing football.

I was at Ravenscraig last weekend from about 9am - lots of youngsters from ages of 5 to 10 there playing in organised matches from about 9am up until about 12pm
Part of the problem with kids not playing in a local park is there are less and less of them available - my son will play football in the street due to lack of suitable space round about us - and then get told to move by the neighbours in case he hits the cars or bangs the ball of their wall

[superfurryhibby]

Here's another thought.

Football is traditionally seen as being a working class game. How entrenched is that in our perceptions and does our footballing culture create barriers to children from different social backgrounds participating?

I know that there are players who come from fee paying schools, like Alex Harris, but they do seem to be a rare breed in our game. In Edinburgh approx 20% of high school children attend private schools.

It's a contentious point, but is there anything in it? Are we driving posh ****s away from the game?

[superfurryhibby]

And another thing...... the fee paying laddies obviously come from better nourished genetic stock. They are larger and more powerfully built, exactly what the formerly ginger national team manager is looking for.

[Firestarter]

And another thing...... the fee paying laddies obviously come from better nourished genetic stock. They are larger and more powerfully built, exactly what the formerly ginger national team manager is looking for.

Yes, this generation will come to fruition in the next 5 years I think.

[Marcus_Hibs]

I think another factor that doesn't help in British football is the young age that kids start playing on 11 a side pitches. Bundles of time on the ball, which is unrealistic compared to high level football & those moments are few and far between.

I worked at Brentford a few years back and they had a really good academy. I'd go down and watch the kids playing futsal and I thought that's definitely the way to go. 5-6 a side, lots of touches of the ball, learning close control and skill to get out of tight spaces etc. Then other days I'd watch the 12 year olds playing on the adult pitches, just standing around for ages waiting for a touch of the ball. When you factor in how few times a week they'll play a game, you could be looking at Less than 50 touches of the ball per week for some players. The coaching system definitely needs updating and I really think futsal is a big step in the right direction

[Onion]

Totally.

[angus hibby]

I’ve been coaching kids for the last 6 years or so. Just before my team reached under 9 level, I arranged a training match against another team in same age group. So here I was doing what I thought was best for 7 and 8 year old kids in giving them a game of football against another team.

Low and behold, because I hadn’t let the local football organisation know about the training match, I received a letter saying I had “brought the game into disrepute by playing an unauthorised match” and was summoned to make the 4 hour round trip to Hampden to explain my actions!

If powers at be are punishing folk who are trying to make kids better footballers, what chance have we got?

[Bishop Hibee]

Iceland has 30 full sized artificial pitches, 7 of which are indoors. Imagine for a minute Edinburgh having something similar. No, I can’t either sadly. Our council is so skint it’s selling facilities off or downgrading them.

[Marcus_Hibs]

I’ve been coaching kids for the last 6 years or so. Just before my team reached under 9 level, I arranged a training match against another team in same age group. So here I was doing what I thought was best for 7 and 8 year old kids in giving them a game of football against another team.

Low and behold, because I hadn’t let the local football organisation know about the training match, I received a letter saying I had “brought the game into disrepute by playing an unauthorised match” and was summoned to make the 4 hour round trip to Hampden to explain my actions!

If powers at be are punishing folk who are trying to make kids better footballers, what chance have we got?

That just absolutely says it all, doesn't it? Laughable. Talk about totally missing the point and fighting the wrong battles

[Hibrandenburg]

Iceland has 30 full sized artificial pitches, 7 of which are indoors. Imagine for a minute Edinburgh having something similar. No, I can’t either sadly. Our council is so skint it’s selling facilities off or downgrading them.

Every little village over here has it's own football team that is normally part of a larger sports club. I'm not sure of the exact numbers but I'd wager that Berlin alone has a few hundred full size artificial football pitches. Add to that, nearly every kids playground has a caged football area with an artificial playing surface. My boy got his first report card in school this year and as well as a grade for maths, German, English and all the usual subjects there was a grade for sport. It might be different now but back in my day sport was taught but never graded. Scotland has a lot of catching up to do.

[greenlex]

Iceland has 30 full sized artificial pitches, 7 of which are indoors. Imagine for a minute Edinburgh having something similar. No, I can’t either sadly. Our council is so skint it’s selling facilities off or downgrading them.

They also jailed their bankers. Just saying.

[greenlex]

Here's another thought.

Football is traditionally seen as being a working class game. How entrenched is that in our perceptions and does our footballing culture create barriers to children from different social backgrounds participating?

I know that there are players who come from fee paying schools, like Alex Harris, but they do seem to be a rare breed in our game. In Edinburgh approx 20% of high school children attend private schools.

It's a contentious point, but is there anything in it? Are we driving posh ****s away from the game?
I actually think it’s drifting away from working class or poorer backgrounds. If you have two kids at organised football,bearing in mind most of football is now organised, it’s exoensive. Certainly if you are on a small income paying a £5 or whatever for each of the to either train or play twice a week that’s a big hole in a small income not to mention the cost of boots and kit.

[where'stheslope]

I actually think it’s drifting away from working class or poorer backgrounds. If you have two kids at organised football,bearing in mind most of football is now organised, it’s exoensive. Certainly if you are on a small income paying a £5 or whatever for each of the to either train or play twice a week that’s a big hole in a small income not to mention the cost of boots and kit.

Is it still working class when some players are being paid £49 million a year to kick a ball around twice a week?

Non De-script players are are being bought for a mere £30 or 40 million?

And even some players are hiring private jets to go to pop concerts?

I think the sooner it all goes belly up the better, then we might see the Famous winning the League, until then we just dream!!!!

[heretoday]

Every little village over here has it's own football team that is normally part of a larger sports club. I'm not sure of the exact numbers but I'd wager that Berlin alone has a few hundred full size artificial football pitches. Add to that, nearly every kids playground has a caged football area with an artificial playing surface. My boy got his first report card in school this year and as well as a grade for maths, German, English and all the usual subjects there was a grade for sport. It might be different now but back in my day sport was taught but never graded. Scotland has a lot of catching up to do.

Excellent post.

We're hooked into the austerity thing. Money must be saved. Libraries are cutting hours. Public toilets are closing.

You have to go to the local pub to have a pee. What does that say? Go on, have a drink.......

[superfurryhibby]

Every little village over here has it's own football team that is normally part of a larger sports club. I'm not sure of the exact numbers but I'd wager that Berlin alone has a few hundred full size artificial football pitches. Add to that, nearly every kids playground has a caged football area with an artificial playing surface. My boy got his first report card in school this year and as well as a grade for maths, German, English and all the usual subjects there was a grade for sport. It might be different now but back in my day sport was taught but never graded. Scotland has a lot of catching up to do.

Kids in high school in Scotland are given grades for PE too. Participation is compulsory.

I think you need to make like for like comparison. Berlin probably has a population of nearly 4 million people. It would be more relevant to compare us to a nation of roughly equivalent size than the capital city of one of one of Europe's largest nations. I would wager that there isn't 200 hundred full sized indoor pitches in the whole of Germany.

Most of our high schools have good facilities, although I notice that astro at our local high school are rarely used in the evenings, We definitely could do with more places to play that have lighting, in public parks and the like.

[superfurryhibby]

I actually think it’s drifting away from working class or poorer backgrounds. If you have two kids at organised football,bearing in mind most of football is now organised, it’s exoensive. Certainly if you are on a small income paying a £5 or whatever for each of the to either train or play twice a week that’s a big hole in a small income not to mention the cost of boots and kit.

That's a fair point Lex, it does cost money to take part and buy kit etc. My middle boy does two organised sports (fencing and hockey) and it's roughly £50/ month in fees. A pal at work said that his laddie's boys club know that some folk find it hard to keep up with costs, but they also need the cash to cover facilities to train etc.

Another few points worth considering. We are a country with a small population but a large land mass. Although most of us live in the South of Scotland and up the Eastern seaboard, there are huge rural areas where facilities are harder to reach and sport is harder to organise. There must still be sizable numbers of people in the Highlands and Islands, Argyll and the like? There doesn't seem to be many pro players breaking through from these areas? Likewise, the Scottish Borders has rugby as it's main sport and no pro football team in a region a pretty large population, another swathe of folk less interested in football.

So, if we add up the middle classes, urban poor, folk from the Highlands and Borders, we're not connecting football to a fair chunk of our people?

[West lower]

The old firm stifles Scottish football, any challenge from another club and they either buy the opposition or unsettle the player: the sooner they are gone the better. Apparently Griffiths only became a player after a year or so at Celtic. It will be the same with Mcginn. Same old same old.

[GreenNWhiteArmy]

The old firm stifles Scottish football, any challenge from another club and they either buy the opposition or unsettle the player: the sooner they are gone the better. Apparently Griffiths only became a player after a year or so at Celtic. It will be the same with Mcginn. Same old same old.

He only became a player after they'd accepted him. I had many run ins with Celtic "fans" I'm mates with at the time over whether Leigh was "good enough for Celtic"

Top player. Hope he gets a decent move in the summer

[Mibbes Aye]

I think another factor that doesn't help in British football is the young age that kids start playing on 11 a side pitches. Bundles of time on the ball, which is unrealistic compared to high level football & those moments are few and far between.

I worked at Brentford a few years back and they had a really good academy. I'd go down and watch the kids playing futsal and I thought that's definitely the way to go. 5-6 a side, lots of touches of the ball, learning close control and skill to get out of tight spaces etc. Then other days I'd watch the 12 year olds playing on the adult pitches, just standing around for ages waiting for a touch of the ball. When you factor in how few times a week they'll play a game, you could be looking at Less than 50 touches of the ball per week for some players. The coaching system definitely needs updating and I really think futsal is a big step in the right direction

:agree:

Lots of research around this, and the differing levels of touch you get dependent on the team size. The evidence is there that you get a lot more touches the smaller the team. It's a no-brainer that the more touches you get, the better you develop.

[anon1875]

Sky bought the premier league in 1995. Scotland last qualified in 1998 and haven't got a sniff since. I'm not saying this is the defining reason.

When was the last time you seen kids playing football in the street?

[West lower]

Sky bought the premier league in 1995. Scotland last qualified in 1998 and haven't got a sniff since. I'm not saying this is the defining reason.

When was the last time you seen kids playing football in the street?

The old Hampden was also Scotland’s 12th man. We started knocking it down in 1990. It has been all downhill since then too for qualification.

[mca]

When you have people of the 'calibre' of Regan and Doncaster as major players in our game, it's not hard to realise why it's in such a state !


:thumbsup:

[Eyrie]

The old Hampden was also Scotland’s 12th man. We started knocking it down in 1990. It has been all downhill since then too for qualification.

So do we spend big money on rebuilding Hampden to provide a better atmosphere, or do we invest that money in youth football? More coaches, better trained coaches, better facilities, free/subsidised facilities etc?

The money has to come from within football, because there are more deserving societal needs than a sport when it comes to public money.

[Haymaker]

Sky bought the premier league in 1995. Scotland last qualified in 1998 and haven't got a sniff since. I'm not saying this is the defining reason.

When was the last time you seen kids playing football in the street?

91/92 was it not? I thought the break away happened with SKYs backing in showing more live football?