Shooting in Vegas

[HH81]

Reports of mass shootings in Vegas by another loser/losers.

Never going to end is it?

[J-C]

Just sitting here watching the news, 2 dead and at least 24 injured with 12 critical, the police are saying they've shot the suspect and not looking for any other people, the world is a crazy scary place nowadays.

[J-C]

Update now 20+ people dead :(

[Hibbyradge]

The saddest part about all this is that society is becoming immune to the shock of these outrages.

[Bristolhibby]

64 YO white male being mentioned as the gunman.

Interested to hear the President take on this one.

Saw this on Twitter - Pundits on CNN talking about security checks at hotels, restricting open air public events. Here's an idea: ban massive assault weapons!

J

[HH81]

More than 50 killed now.

[lapsedhibee]

Interested to hear the President take on this one.

Won't he be calling for all concertgoers to take weapons to concerts, so they can defend themselves?

[heretoday]

Won't he be calling for all concertgoers to take weapons to concerts, so they can defend themselves?

He'll be calling the guy a loser.

[Hibbyradge]

Won't he be calling for all concertgoers to take weapons to concerts, so they can defend themselves?

Yep. Guns should be issued to everyone entering casinos too.

[heretoday]

The saddest part about all this is that society is becoming immune to the shock of these outrages.

I'm sure that's because of the "overkill" coverage by 24hr TV and media. The pressure to fill all that airtime leads to repeated showing of the same pictures and footage and that sends us to sleep.

Also the idle speculation by presenters who have no idea what they're talking about gives the whole thing a soporific feel.

They're doing it right now!

[edinburghhibee]

When are Americans gonna learn that they need to ban the sale of guns???? Shocking scenes out there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pretty Boy]

It's terrorism regardless of the race and religion of the perpetrator and I hope it is reported and commented on as such.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Nevada has some of the least stringent gun laws in the United States.

People are allowed to carry weapons and do not have to register themselves as a gun-owner
.
Background checks are done when people buy guns, but they are also allowed to sell them privately.

The state does not ban assault weapons, which include automatic or semi-automatic firearms.



astonishing

[Colr]

Won't he be calling for all concertgoers to take weapons to concerts, so they can defend themselves?

The answer to a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun, huh?

[snooky]

I'm sure that's because of the "overkill" coverage by 24hr TV and media. The pressure to fill all that airtime leads to repeated showing of the same pictures and footage and that sends us to sleep.

Also the idle speculation by presenters who have no idea what they're talking about gives the whole thing a soporific feel.

They're doing it right now!

Newsfill BS really gets to me. The other obsession the US media have is their obsession with how every disaster will affect the next Presidential election. After the Oklahoma City carnage in 1995, that was question that was posed by the reporter outside the smouldering building. Turned my stomach it did.

[Captain Trips]

Las Vegas place close to my Heart. So sorry for everyone dead or injured.

[NadeAteMyLunch!]

America is an utter shambles when it comes to their gun laws. They will never ever learn, sadly

[Hibbyradge]

It's terrorism regardless of the race and religion of the perpetrator and I hope it is reported and commented on as such.

You'll be lucky.

[JeMeSouviens]

I was in Vegas 6 weeks ago, which I know is irrelevant, but it's ****** scary stuff.

[Sergio sledge]

It's terrorism regardless of the race and religion of the perpetrator and I hope it is reported and commented on as such.

Does it not need to be politically motivated in order to be terrorism? No information on the motive just now, so hard to say if it was terrorism or just a nutter.

Although BBC are reporting that ISIS have claimed responsibility.

It is truly unbelievable that America still allows people to have automatic weapons, the amount of shots the guy got off in such a short space of time is crazy. Then again when their president says this after the Bataclan attack (I think) there's not much hope of that changing... https://twitter.com/Aegon_Snow/status/914815368404914177

[pacoluna]

Does it not need to be politically motivated in order to be terrorism? No information on the motive just now, so hard to say if it was terrorism or just a nutter.

Although BBC are reporting that ISIS have claimed responsibility.

It is truly unbelievable that America still allows people to have automatic weapons, the amount of shots the guy got off in such a short space of time is crazy. Then again when their president says this after the Bataclan attack (I think) there's not much hope of that changing... https://twitter.com/Aegon_Snow/status/914815368404914177

The law states an act of terrorism is 'any act that involves the use or attempted use of sabotage, coercion or violence which is intended to cause great bodily harm or death to the general population.'

Doesn't need to be politically related.

[hibsbollah]

The saddest part about all this is that society is becoming immune to the shock of these outrages.

:agree: I think this is a massive change for most people.

We digest these stories in the mass media in a particular way, with a sort of detached sympathy. On a personal level, I was reading the news yesterday and got a massive jolt when I read about the stabbing in Marseille, and realised the murders took place right on the steps of Gare St Charles, in front of the hotel my son and I stayed at in the Spring. I'm pretty sure the photo I have of us is on the bench is the same bench where this poor woman had her throat slit yesterday by this ****ing ****bag. He then came back and stabbed another woman to death, all forgotten in a day or so, or hazilly remembered as another one of those jihaadist murders.

I think I got this feeling of shock not because I am any closer to the event itself just because I sat on that same bench, I'm not really in any real way. I think it's because it reminds me that we are all equally at risk of some craziness like this happening to us. When we watch it on the mainstream media we feel like we are sharing a communal experience but are safe from it's consequences. When of course we aren't. We could all be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Apologies for the not very cheery thought.

[hibsbollah]

Although BBC are reporting that ISIS have claimed responsibility.

https://twitter.com/Aegon_Snow/status/914815368404914177

I was reading that the intelligence services don't take claims like this seriously anymore, ISIS takes responsibility for everything these days whether they have any direct connection to the killing or not.

[Sergio sledge]

The law states an act of terrorism is 'any act that involves the use or attempted use of sabotage, coercion or violence which is intended to cause great bodily harm or death to the general population.'

Doesn't need to be politically related.

I thought after previous attacks where the perpetrator was white there have been similar comments about the press calling terrorism and it was established that for it to be legally an act of terror then it needed to be politically motivated. e.g. the Jo Cox murder.

I thought it was an international definition, but maybe that's just UK law and it is different in America.

I actually agree with your definition more anyway.

273 mass shootings in the USA since the start of the year, that's 275 days. 11,652 people killed in gun related violence since the start of 2017. Absolutely crazy statistics. And still large sections of the population in the USA think more guns are the answer.

[Sir David Gray]

I thought after previous attacks where the perpetrator was white there have been similar comments about the press calling terrorism and it was established that for it to be legally an act of terror then it needed to be politically motivated. e.g. the Jo Cox murder.

I thought it was an international definition, but maybe that's just UK law and it is different in America.

I actually agree with your definition more anyway.

273 mass shootings in the USA since the start of the year, that's 275 days. 11,652 people killed in gun related violence since the start of 2017. Absolutely crazy statistics. And still large sections of the population in the USA think more guns are the answer.

Horrific.

As long as the Second Amendment is upheld though. :rolleyes:

[SuperAllyMcleod]

Horrific.

As long as the Second Amendment is upheld though. :rolleyes:

So true, and the clue is in the name - amend it again!

[Hibbyradge]

This is a genuine tweet from someone calling themselves Open Carry Magazine

NO MORE GUN FREE ZONES, EVER! This has gone on LONG ENOUGH! The VENUE prevented anyone from shooting back! ENOUGH ENOUGH ENOUGH!!!

[danhibees1875]

This is a genuine tweet from someone calling themselves Open Carry Magazine

NO MORE GUN FREE ZONES, EVER! This has gone on LONG ENOUGH! The VENUE prevented anyone from shooting back! ENOUGH ENOUGH ENOUGH!!!

I know the answer already, but did he explain how everyone in the panic down below would have used their weapons successfully against someone firing multiple automatics from a high vantage point in the distance?

[Pretty Boy]

I know the answer already, but did he explain how everyone in the panic down below would have used their weapons successfully against someone firing multiple automatics from a high vantage point in the distance?

Or how they would be able to identify the aggressive shooter amongst all the other people aiming and firing guns trying to shoot back?

[snooky]

Or how they would be able to identify the aggressive shooter amongst all the other people aiming and firing guns trying to shoot back?

Details details! We're talking 'bout the US of A here. :cb Sarah Palin, yas bass :gun:

Sad ain't it.

[MyJo]

Or how they would be able to identify the aggressive shooter amongst all the other people aiming and firing guns trying to shoot back?

All that would have happened here is people would have heard gunshots and start to panic, hundreds of people then draw thier own weapons and open fire on the first person they see with a gun in thier hand which in all likelyhood would have been someone else doing the same as them and you have a death toll of 500+ rather than 50.

The second amendment was created when the right to bear arms meant you could defend yourself with a musket that could fire a little ball of metal twice a minute if you were well trained. To use this to justify owning weaponry that allows a single person to murder over 50 people and injure hundreds more in just a few minutes is just wrong.

Any automatic fire, long-range or high-calibre weapon is not for self-defence, thier only purpose is to kill and its long past due that America stopped people from owning these types of weapons for any reason.

[Bristolhibby]

All that would have happened here is people would have heard gunshots and start to panic, hundreds of people then draw thier own weapons and open fire on the first person they see with a gun in thier hand which in all likelyhood would have been someone else doing the same as them and you have a death toll of 500+ rather than 50.

The second amendment was created when the right to bear arms meant you could defend yourself with a musket that could fire a little ball of metal twice a minute if you were well trained. To use this to justify owning weaponry that allows a single person to murder over 50 people and injure hundreds more in just a few minutes is just wrong.

Any automatic fire, long-range or high-calibre weapon is not for self-defence, thier only purpose is to kill and its long past due that America stopped people from owning these types of weapons for any reason.

Spot on regarding the Second Amendment.

Sure they can have guns, just not military grade assault weapons.

J

[Haymaker]

Spot on regarding the Second Amendment.

Sure they can have guns, just not military grade assault weapons.

J

According to my friend who is very much pro 2nd amendment, they should be allowed everything the government can have. And apparently a lot of people agree.

Which is slightly worrying.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Only the American public can solve this problem and only if they are prepared to meet it head on. The start would be new laws to absolutely prohibit the sale and ownership of automatic and semi automatic weapons .... if the fact that one single pensioner can kill nearly 60 people and injure hundreds more in a few minutes isn't horrific enough to bring about that change then there is no hope for them at all.

There is no real life scenario imaginable ( the meltdown of society, a commie invasion, or the zombie apocalypse are not real life scenarios ) where an ordinary member of the public can justify the need to own or posses a weapon capable of firing hundreds of rounds a minute, absolutely none. That has to be the starting point of the anti gun lobby .... and what they need to do first of all is ask the pro gun lobby to show one single instance in 200 years of rampant and universal public gun ownership where an automatic weapon in the hands of an ordinary member of the public has saved an innocent life.

The second amendment is accepted by most of America's politicians, lawmakers and millions of citizens as meaning that individual citizens have the right to posses arms and keep them in their homes, at least insomuch as none of them have seriously ever successfully challenged that view. But its highly unlikely that the people who drafted that amendment could have foreseen the unimaginable firepower available to a single individual in the modern age ...... the fight has to be not against the second amendment, but against the type of weapon that amendment allows an individual to carry.

[hibsbollah]

According to my friend who is very much pro 2nd amendment, they should be allowed everything the government can have. And apparently a lot of people agree.

Which is slightly worrying.

But where does it end? Fully automatic kalashnikovs? Missile launchers? Mini nukes? If the second amendment is interpreted that way to its natural conclusion any old redneck can own an ICBM with a nuclear warhead. So what makes Kim Jong Un any different? All my American friends and family are pro gun control so I can't make the argument but I'd love to get an answer to that question from the other side.

[Hibrandenburg]

They won't consider a gun ban. These mass shootings are always the fault of:

Criminals
Blacks
Psychos
Islamists
Aggrieved employees
Bullied teenagers
Drug dealers
Right wing nutcases
Left wing nutcases
Religious zealots

And never the fault of automatic weapons designed to kill as many people in as short a time as possible.

The yanks are simply delusional when it comes to their guns.

[Sergio sledge]

Apparently more people are killed in car accidents every year but no-one ever suggest banning cars... saw that one on facebook. No point in even debating with that logic!

[NAE NOOKIE]

They won't consider a gun ban. These mass shootings are always the fault of:

Criminals
Blacks
Psychos
Islamists
Aggrieved employees
Bullied teenagers
Drug dealers
Right wing nutcases
Left wing nutcases
Religious zealots

And never the fault of automatic weapons designed to kill as many people in as short a time as possible.

The yanks are simply delusional when it comes to their guns.

The gun lobby will say pretty well anything to defend their position:

Guns don't kill people, people kill people ...... Aye, but people with automatic weapons can kill far more than people with a pistol or bolt action rifle can.

People are safer if they are allowed to carry guns ..... where's the proof of that?

Mass killers are more likely to be stopped if people are armed ..... millions of Americans are armed, when was the last time a mass shooter was stopped by an armed member of the public?

When it comes to automatic weapons the truth is that the vast majority of them are just big kids, or worse seriously deluded fantasists who love shooting stuff up and playing at soldiers. They watch Mad Max or The Walking Dead and love to imagine themselves in that situation .... They go out to the desert or the woods and blast away at tin cans or wrecked vehicles and pretend to themselves that they are fighting for survival against the commies who have taken over the country and its up to them to protect the American way of life, and its sure as hell a lot more fun to do that with an AK47 or Uzi than with some poxy one bullet every 10 seconds lame assed wimps gun . In short they are adults playing children's games, but with real life weapons.

In order to preserve their playground and their fantasy world they are prepared to perpetuate a situation where the real life nutters and psychologically damaged people have easy access to enough firepower to mow down their mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, husbands, wives and children by the dozen before the police can stop them ...... and the thing that is far more horrific and abhorrent than any playground massacre is that these people, most of whom would consider themselves to be civilised and 'normal' seem to think that's a price worth paying.

That's the truth.

[snooky]

The gun lobby will say pretty well anything to defend their position:

Guns don't kill people, people kill people ...... Aye, but people with automatic weapons can kill far more than people with a pistol or bolt action rifle can.

People are safer if they are allowed to carry guns ..... where's the proof of that?

Mass killers are more likely to be stopped if people are armed ..... millions of Americans are armed, when was the last time a mass shooter was stopped by an armed member of the public?

When it comes to automatic weapons the truth is that the vast majority of them are just big kids, or worse seriously deluded fantasists who love shooting stuff up and playing at soldiers. They watch Mad Max or The Walking Dead and love to imagine themselves in that situation .... They go out to the desert or the woods and blast away at tin cans or wrecked vehicles and pretend to themselves that they are fighting for survival against the commies who have taken over the country and its up to them to protect the American way of life, and its sure as hell a lot more fun to do that with an AK47 or Uzi than with some poxy one bullet every 10 seconds lame assed wimps gun . In short they are adults playing children's games, but with real life weapons.

In order to preserve their playground and their fantasy world they are prepared to perpetuate a situation where the real life nutters and psychologically damaged people have easy access to enough firepower to mow down their mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, husbands, wives and children by the dozen before the police can stop them ...... and the thing that is far more horrific and abhorrent than any playground massacre is that these people, most of whom would consider themselves to be civilised and 'normal' seem to think that's a price worth paying.

That's the truth.

You're bang on the money there, NN
(No pun intended)

[Ryan69]

Theres a video going round clearly showing there is a shooter on 4th or 5th floor.

Was there more than 1 shooter?

[Ryan69]

Theres a video going round clearly showing there is a shooter on 4th or 5th floor.

Was there more than 1 shooter?

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7ab_1507020764

[easty]

Theres a video going round clearly showing there is a shooter on 4th or 5th floor.

Was there more than 1 shooter?

Nah. I just googled that, and the video claiming there's someone on the 4th or 5th floor, absolutely does not clearly show anything. A few flashes of light. In Vegas. Could be anything.

[snooky]

Nah. I just googled that, and the video claiming there's someone on the 4th or 5th floor, absolutely does not clearly show anything. A few flashes of light. In Vegas. Could be anything.

They could count the spent cartridges in the room of the assailant and collect as many bullets as they can from the car park.
Obviously they wouldn't get them all but I suspect if there was a second gunman there would be a huge discrepancy in the "shells in room/bullets in carpark" ratio. Maybe not as easy as it sounds but it might be worth a go if proof was needed that there was only one gunman.

[Ryan69]

Nah. I just googled that, and the video claiming there's someone on the 4th or 5th floor, absolutely does not clearly show anything. A few flashes of light. In Vegas. Could be anything.

It clearly DOES look like the flashes coming from a rifle being fired.

[Moulin Yarns]

It clearly DOES look like the flashes coming from a rifle being fired.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41471242

no mention, no photographs, no eye witnesses, only thing present is speculation. I don't know what the light is, I have never witnessed gunfire, thank goodness, but it is a shaky video and could be light reflecting from somewhere else as the car is moving.

[easty]

It clearly DOES look like the flashes coming from a rifle being fired.

It doesn't "clearly" show anything...at all.

[Just Alf]

19459



according to one of the comments under that video we've basically got to question EVERY news item as they ALL hide something from the public.

[RyeSloan]

It clearly DOES look like the flashes coming from a rifle being fired.

Could be anything...not sure if you were shown that in isolation you would be saying 'oh that's defiantly a rifle being fired'

And are we to assume that this dude was just cruising by while some maniac was firing an assault rifle out of a window looking right at them?

Anyway I'm sure there will be plenty of scrutiny on how this unfolded so no need for conspiracy theories regarding such a tragic event.

[Future17]

Mass killers are more likely to be stopped if people are armed ..... millions of Americans are armed, when was the last time a mass shooter was stopped by an armed member of the public?

I don't disagree with much of what you've said in your post but, in the interests of balance, this actually happened very recently:

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/09/25/us/tennessee-church-shooting-hero-trnd/index.html

[Just Alf]

being a bit at a loose end for a bit I've been looking again at some of the videos going around.

I've come to the conclusion there's two possibilities.

1) someone good at video editing has lifted and shifted the muzzle flashes to make it look like there's another shooter

or

2) there was indeed another shooter but they somehow managed to exactly copy the maniac on the other floor using the exact same firing cadences and pauses.

I'll leave you guys to decide on whats the most likely.

[Moulin Yarns]

The good

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/americ-debates-gun-reform_uk_59d345f3e4b0655781551564?utm_hp_ref=uk

and the bad


http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/las-vegas-gun-control-steve-hilton_uk_59d33abfe4b0f96298898a51?utm_hp_ref=uk

[CapitalGreen]

Theres a video going round clearly showing there is a shooter on 4th or 5th floor.

Was there more than 1 shooter?

It is so clear in fact that it is not clear whether it is the 4th or 5th floor.

How can you be so certain that the light you see is a 2nd shooter when you can't even be certain what floor the light is emanating from?

[snooky]

being a bit at a loose end for a bit I've been looking again at some of the videos going around.

I've come to the conclusion there's two possibilities.

1) someone good at video editing has lifted and shifted the muzzle flashes to make it look like there's another shooter

or

2) there was indeed another shooter but they somehow managed to exactly copy the maniac on the other floor using the exact same firing cadences and pauses.

I'll leave you guys to decide on whats the most likely.

People who do photo-editing to tragedy pictures, thereby muddying the waters, are the lowest of the low. Like the one of the guy on the WTC and the plane about to fly into it. FAKE and sick.

[Keith_M]

Where's the worldwide outrage/sympathy/unity over this event that we've seen after attacks by Muslim Terrorists?

There's a distinct lack of 'Je Suis Vegas' type movements, or world leaders rushing to offer their sympathy and support. No idiotic tweets from Trump giving rash comments and criticism (especially over the lack of gun controls a major contributor to this event)


Is it really any less horrific because the attacker was a white american?


:confused:

[snooky]

Where's the worldwide outrage/sympathy/unity over this event that we've seen after attacks by Muslim Terrorists?

There's a distinct lack of 'Je Suis Vegas' type movements, or world leaders rushing to offer their sympathy and support. No idiotic tweets from Trump giving rash comments and criticism (especially over the lack of gun controls a major contributor to this event)


Is it really any less horrific because the attacker was a white american?


:confused:

:agree: a-la the carnage in Oklahoma City in 1995.

[Hibrandenburg]

Where's the worldwide outrage/sympathy/unity over this event that we've seen after attacks by Muslim Terrorists?

There's a distinct lack of 'Je Suis Vegas' type movements, or world leaders rushing to offer their sympathy and support. No idiotic tweets from Trump giving rash comments and criticism (especially over the lack of gun controls a major contributor to this event)


Is it really any less horrific because the attacker was a white american?


:confused:

Not my opinion and just playing devil's advocate, but maybe there's a sense of "we told you so" from the rest of the world? Maybe there's a sense of it's all a mess of your own making?

I personally think that people have become so accustomed to mass shootings in the US that it's taken on a kind of normality and the inevitable debate regarding the ownership weapons in the aftermath will take its usual course ensuring the next mass shooting is just around the corner.

[Ryan69]

[QUOTE=CapitalGreen;5184074]It is so clear in fact that it is not clear whether it is the 4th or 5th floor.

You are right about the accuracy of the floor......but something was definitely happening on another floor apart from the 32nd also.

[Sergio sledge]

Where's the worldwide outrage/sympathy/unity over this event that we've seen after attacks by Muslim Terrorists?

There's a distinct lack of 'Je Suis Vegas' type movements, or world leaders rushing to offer their sympathy and support. No idiotic tweets from Trump giving rash comments and criticism (especially over the lack of gun controls a major contributor to this event)


Is it really any less horrific because the attacker was a white american?


:confused:

https://theintercept.com/2017/10/02/lone-wolf-white-privlege-las-vegas-stephen-paddock/

[CropleyWasGod]

Where's the worldwide outrage/sympathy/unity over this event that we've seen after attacks by Muslim Terrorists?

There's a distinct lack of 'Je Suis Vegas' type movements, or world leaders rushing to offer their sympathy and support. No idiotic tweets from Trump giving rash comments and criticism (especially over the lack of gun controls a major contributor to this event)


Is it really any less horrific because the attacker was a white american?


:confused:You spoke too soon.[emoji16]

The Donald has called the guy "sick". This before there has been any assessment of his mental health.

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[Haymaker]

But where does it end? Fully automatic kalashnikovs? Missile launchers? Mini nukes? If the second amendment is interpreted that way to its natural conclusion any old redneck can own an ICBM with a nuclear warhead. So what makes Kim Jong Un any different? All my American friends and family are pro gun control so I can't make the argument but I'd love to get an answer to that question from the other side.

Apparently "if you can afford it, you should be able to have it."

I'm going to start drinking in a different pub.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I don't disagree with much of what you've said in your post but, in the interests of balance, this actually happened very recently:

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/09/25/us/tennessee-church-shooting-hero-trnd/index.html

Had to be one I suppose .... but what was notable was a member of the audience in Las Vegas saying that people who did have guns in their cars were afraid to try and use them in case the police thought they were the shooter and shot them.

[easty]

You spoke too soon.[emoji16]

The Donald has called the guy "sick". This before there has been any assessment of his mental health.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

I don't see what's wrong with that?

[NAE NOOKIE]

Not my opinion and just playing devil's advocate, but maybe there's a sense of "we told you so" from the rest of the world? Maybe there's a sense of it's all a mess of your own making?

I personally think that people have become so accustomed to mass shootings in the US that it's taken on a kind of normality and the inevitable debate regarding the ownership weapons in the aftermath will take its usual course ensuring the next mass shooting is just around the corner.

To be honest that thought entered my head this morning as well ....... after these type of events Facebook is usually awash with 'Pray for so & so' and 'OMG how terrible' etc etc, this morning there was barely a mention of it, in fact Tom Petty is getting more comments.

Like you I really do think its got to the stage where its a bit like having a kid who burns themselves playing with matches .... there has to come a point where you either chastise the kid for not taking a telling about the danger of playing with matches and tell them the pain they are in is their own fault ..... or even better, you hide the bloody matches. Fail to take either option and its hard to have sympathy for the child and even harder to have sympathy for the parents ............. perhaps the Yanks should be referred to social services and have their population taken into the care of a responsible country until everybody grows up.

[Captain Trips]

It is so clear in fact that it is not clear whether it is the 4th or 5th floor.

How can you be so certain that the light you see is a 2nd shooter when you can't even be certain what floor the light is emanating from?

The Mandalay bay like most hotels over there its pretty hard to see what rooms are which as the windows are huge panels of reflective glass. That building is basically a massive mirror and that side of the building looks onto the airport. I would suggest that flashes are a reflection that could come from literally hundreds of lights out there. I assume again the windows do not open as every hotel I have stayed in over there the windows do not open.

The Mandalay bay looks to me like the windows do not open so if there is a broken window where those flashes are then yeah it maybe a shooter who will have had to break windows like the main suspect will have had to do.

[CropleyWasGod]

I don't see what's wrong with that?Trump is not a mental health professional, so I'm not going to take any heed of his diagnosis. But many will.

It's like the Pilot Wings episode. People with mental health issues are stigmatised, in the same way that Muslims are stigmatised by radical Islam.

And all of that deflects from the main issue of gun control.

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[pacoluna]

Trump is not a mental health professional, so I'm not going to take any heed of his diagnosis. But many will.

It's like the Pilot Wings episode. People with mental health issues are stigmatised, in the same way that Muslims are stigmatised by radical Islam.

And all of that deflects from the main issue of gun control.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

The GOP insists the vegas gunman's arsenal of weapons is a rite but the medical treatment for the multiple victims is merely a privilege.

[GreenLake]

I hope this guy left a note or laptop somewhere with the reason for his actions. It has to be the scariest thing that someone could just do something so horrible and deadly without any obvious motive.

His brother said he had 'no history of violence. No history of anything couldn't give a s--- less about politics, religion, pointy hatted people etc, etc. He just wanted to get a royal flush."

The worst mass shooting in US history was carried out by a gambler with unpredictable moods.

[lapsedhibee]

The worst mass shooting in US history was carried out by a gambler with unpredictable moods.

Modern US history, shirley?

[Allant1981]

It clearly DOES look like the flashes coming from a rifle being fired.

sorry but that could be anything

[Hibernia&Alba]

Yet another American gun tragedy, and this time it's the worst yet. It's incredible that one person could do so much damage in such a short space of time, but it's nothing new over there. Yet again there will be the handwringing from those politicians who take large contributions from the National Rifle Association and the gun manufacturers, and yet again nothing will be done to tighten gun control. It's staggering that in some states gun owners don't even need to register their weapons; that's before any discussion of limiting ownership!

The Second Amendment fundamentalists have a strange definition of freedom to me. Free to bear arms with minimal oversight - well what about the freedom to live of those 59 people? It seems a rather fundamental freedom to have. The politicians who take their thirty pieces of silver from the gun lobby have blood on their hands; however, they don't seem to have a conscience, as they hide behind religion and talk of 'praying for the victims'. Crocodile tears as dozens of young lives are needlessly ended once again.

[easty]

Trump is not a mental health professional, so I'm not going to take any heed of his diagnosis. But many will.

It's like the Pilot Wings episode. People with mental health issues are stigmatised, in the same way that Muslims are stigmatised by radical Islam.

And all of that deflects from the main issue of gun control.

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Saying someone is sick doesn't have to mean the same as saying someone has mental health problems though.

I'm nae fan of Trump, but I don't think he's out of line calling the shooter sick and demented.

[CropleyWasGod]

Saying someone is sick doesn't have to mean the same as saying someone has mental health problems though.

I'm nae fan of Trump, but I don't think he's out of line calling the shooter sick and demented.I think he is, until the guy's motive and background have been established. How else will his words be interpreted, other than as mentally ill?

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[Hibernia&Alba]

Saying someone is sick doesn't have to mean the same as saying someone has mental health problems though.

I'm nae fan of Trump, but I don't think he's out of line calling the shooter sick and demented.

I read earlier that the gunman had a history of psychological problems, though the article gave no details. If that's the case, and if the guns were legally owned, there is something very wrong with a system which allows individuals with such case histories access to deadly weapons. Again, the blame lies with the legislators.

[RyeSloan]

I think he is, until the guy's motive and background have been established. How else will his words be interpreted, other than as mentally ill?

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Is there any other way to describe some one who is responsible for such a act as anything but mentally ill? Surely they have to have had some sort of mental breakdown to consider this as an appropriate course of action before blowing their own head off?

[Steve-O]

There are many people who do terrible things who are not mentally ill. In fact the vast majority are not.

[Captain Trips]

Ok the guys a prick hows about that.

[CropleyWasGod]

Is there any other way to describe some one who is responsible for such a act as anything but mentally ill? Surely they have to have had some sort of mental breakdown to consider this as an appropriate course of action before blowing their own head off?A senior official in Homeland Security, speaking on condition of anonymity, has told Reuters that there is " no evidence of mental illness or brain damage".

Are they any more qualified than Trump to come to that conclusion? Possibly, possibly not.

My point is that it is too easy to just label someone as "mad" when their actions don't fit in with so-called norms.

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[Scouse Hibee]

Describing someone who would commit such a horrendous crime as sick is fine with me. Once again It's a term often used that only some folk will choose to be offended by.

[RyeSloan]

A senior official in Homeland Security, speaking on condition of anonymity, has told Reuters that there is " no evidence of mental illness or brain damage".

Are they any more qualified than Trump to come to that conclusion? Possibly, possibly not.

My point is that it is too easy to just label someone as "mad" when their actions don't fit in with so-called norms.

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Fair enough. There is 'so called norms' and their is killing almost 60 people and yourself...in my simple head that means he must have been mad / sick / off his rocker or whatever.

I don't think using those terms will be conflated with people struggling with mental illness as even if medically he would be described as sane it's still an insane thing to do hence why there will be the use of such language to describe him and his actions.

But I take your point and will leave it there as I'm sure we could debate definitions and labels all day long but honestly I'd rather not on this one. [emoji108]

[Ryan69]

I hope this guy left a note or laptop somewhere with the reason for his actions. It has to be the scariest thing that someone could just do something so horrible and deadly without any obvious motive.

His brother said he had 'no history of violence. No history of anything couldn't give a s--- less about politics, religion, pointy hatted people etc, etc. He just wanted to get a royal flush."

The worst mass shooting in US history was carried out by a gambler with unpredictable moods.

Little Knee Massacre was worst.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Little Knee Massacre was worst.

Wounded knee? :greengrin

Bury my heart at wounded knee is a fantastic book by the way ....... after reading it you will be ashamed to be a white European :confused:

[GreenLake]

Modern US history, shirley?

Isn't all US history modern?:greengrin

I can't see one guy doing much damage reloading a musket but acknowledge groups of armed individuals massacred Native Americans.

[hibsbollah]

Wounded knee? :greengrin

Bury my heart at wounded knee is a fantastic book by the way ....... after reading it you will be ashamed to be a white European :confused:

:agree: I've read it three times I think, one I always go back to.

[Ryan69]

Wounded knee? :greengrin

Bury my heart at wounded knee is a fantastic book by the way ....... after reading it you will be ashamed to be a white European :confused:

thats the one...couldn't remember name clearly,great book!

[What_the_deuce]

There are some odd stories going around about this:
-Multiple shooters
-Shots apparently seen fired from another floor
-Some woman yelling to the crowd that they were all going to die about ten minutes before any shots were fired
-Photos of the guy at some anti-Trump events previously

As to the report that there was no evidence of mental illness, well that could just mean that he never saw a psychiatrist or took any prescribed mental health medication. I would suggest that doing this shooting points to some kind of mental health issues, even if they were not previously diagnosed.

[Sylar]

There are some odd stories going around about this:
-Multiple shooters
-Shots apparently seen fired from another floor
-Some woman yelling to the crowd that they were all going to die about ten minutes before any shots were fired
-Photos of the guy at some anti-Trump events previously

As to the report that there was no evidence of mental illness, well that could just mean that he never saw a psychiatrist or took any prescribed mental health medication. I would suggest that doing this shooting points to some kind of mental health issues, even if they were not previously diagnosed.

Utter codswallop - those of us that suffer from mental health conditions are stigmatised enough without every single act of mass violence (that isn't attributed to political/religious agendas) being attached to someone 'going nuts'. The amassing of the arsenal of weapons (undetected), the sending of his girlfriend away to the Phillipines (and transferring her the money he did) all suggest careful planning, conscious thought and an attention to detail, particularly to do all of this without triggering any suspicion.

And of course there are odd stories going around - every single tragic event like this attracts the dissemination of false information and the tin-foil hat brigade.

[What_the_deuce]

Utter codswallop - those of us that suffer from mental health conditions are stigmatised enough without every single act of mass violence (that isn't attributed to political/religious agendas) being attached to someone 'going nuts'. The amassing of the arsenal of weapons (undetected), the sending of his girlfriend away to the Phillipines (and transferring her the money he did) all suggest careful planning, conscious thought and an attention to detail, particularly to do all of this without triggering any suspicion.

And of course there are odd stories going around - every single tragic event like this attracts the dissemination of false information and the tin-foil hat brigade.

All I meant was that someone capable of doing this may not have been completely "right in the head", which is obviously a pretty subjective term since people think that those with a different opinion are not "right in the head". It was an official statement that there was no evidence of mental health issues previously reported and that's all was referring to - it's a pretty meaningless statement to make.

I have not looked at everything but there are various videos on YouTube and other sites where people claim to show footage of multiple muzzle flashes and flashes from a different floor than was reported. I'm not trying to substantiate any of them since I've not really looked into it myself. But just to accept the official report without question is not always a good approach either.

[Hibbyradge]

The good

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/americ-debates-gun-reform_uk_59d345f3e4b0655781551564?utm_hp_ref=uk

and the bad


http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/las-vegas-gun-control-steve-hilton_uk_59d33abfe4b0f96298898a51?utm_hp_ref=uk

:confused:

I just get a cartoon drawing of a transmitter with an electric flash.

[CropleyWasGod]

All I meant was that someone capable of doing this may not have been completely "right in the head", which is obviously a pretty subjective term since people think that those with a different opinion are not "right in the head". It was an official statement that there was no evidence of mental health issues previously reported and that's all was referring to - it's a pretty meaningless statement to make.

I have not looked at everything but there are various videos on YouTube and other sites where people claim to show footage of multiple muzzle flashes and flashes from a different floor than was reported. I'm not trying to substantiate any of them since I've not really looked into it myself. But just to accept the official report without question is not always a good approach either.Has there has been an "official report"?

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[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7ab_1507020764

Looks like a reflection to me. Also the sound of an AR would be much louder if they were that close to it.

[What_the_deuce]

Looks like a reflection to me. Also the sound of an AR would be much louder if they were that close to it.

Probably correct. I've not really examined any footage in detail and I would be likely to miss things anyway. I just find it hard to believe reports from outlets like the BBC and CNN these days, and there are multiple reports of such things elsewhere. So it's always worth questioning things.

[CapitalGreen]

Probably correct. I've not really examined any footage in detail and I would be likely to miss things anyway. I just find it hard to believe reports from outlets like the BBC and CNN these days, and there are multiple reports of such things elsewhere. So it's always worth questioning things.

Yup, much better to believe some guy filming Youtube videos in his mum's basement.

[Moulin Yarns]

:confused:

I just get a cartoon drawing of a transmitter with an electric flash.


The good was a report from Australia that 26000 guns handed over in the first couple of days of a guns amnesty.

The bad is a former aide to David Cameron comparing agun ban with the US ban on Muslims

[Ryan69]

Looks like a reflection to me. Also the sound of an AR would be much louder if they were that close to it.

That would be dependant on how good the microphone on the phone is....and the speakers of course.

[Hibrandenburg]

That would be dependant on how good the microphone on the phone is....and the speakers of course.

It picks up other background noises that wouldn't normally be audible with an AR rattling off a few meters away, so it can't be that bad.:dunno:

[Hibrandenburg]

Probably correct. I've not really examined any footage in detail and I would be likely to miss things anyway. I just find it hard to believe reports from outlets like the BBC and CNN these days, and there are multiple reports of such things elsewhere. So it's always worth questioning things.

Question everything :agree:

[lapsedhibee]

Question everything :agree:

Why.

[What_the_deuce]

Yup, much better to believe some guy filming Youtube videos in his mum's basement.

I didn't say I believed one particular guy or any particular story being told. Where did you get that from?

I just said there were a lot of conflicting bits of information going around. The BBC, CNN and other relatively mainstream media sources have been shown in many instances to be, at best, biased and, at worst, well what's the worst thing a source of news for millions could do?

[What_the_deuce]

Why.

Because...

[Hibrandenburg]

Why.

:greengrin


Why not?

[Ryan69]

Yup, much better to believe some guy filming Youtube videos in his mum's basement.

Probably more accurate than BBC,CNN,etc etc.....

At least it's from a neutral source.


bet you still believe there was no foul play by the government on 9/11 too....cause bbc and cnn say so too


operation mockingbird

[What_the_deuce]

Probably more accurate than BBC,CNN,etc etc.....

At least it's from a neutral source.


bet you still believe there was no foul play by the government on 9/11 too....cause bbc and cnn say so too


operation mockingbird

I don't know how anyone with half a brain could still actually believe the official story on that one. And if they can lie about that they can lie about anything. So, yes, the reported story could well be what actually happened in Las Vegas, but it would not surprise me at all if it wasn't.

[Sylar]

Probably more accurate than BBC,CNN,etc etc.....

At least it's from a neutral source.


bet you still believe there was no foul play by the government on 9/11 too....cause bbc and cnn say so too


operation mockingbird


I don't know how anyone with half a brain could still actually believe the official story on that one. And if they can lie about that they can lie about anything. So, yes, the reported story could well be what actually happened in Las Vegas, but it would not surprise me at all if it wasn't.

:hilarious - very good!

[Hibbyradge]

Question everything :agree:

Ok.

[Captain Trips]

Its a reflection there are no broken windows anywhere else and when there is on buildings like that one window missing is obvious.

Looks like one guy has made a decision to shoot folk and it will happen again. To me thats all there really is to it his decision based on what has affected his life might be nothing to others.

Guns firing, airport across the road, planes helicopters taking off all the time. Lights flashing all over place. I fully expected conflicting stories and unintentional genuine mistakes on what was seen and heard by people there.

It is for me as has been reported by Police.

[Moulin Yarns]

A bit of interesting analysis on gun culture from the BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41488081

Up until 1975 there was a majority in the USA to ban possession of handguns. Opportunity missed.

[What_the_deuce]

Its a reflection there are no broken windows anywhere else and when there is on buildings like that one window missing is obvious.

Looks like one guy has made a decision to shoot folk and it will happen again. To me thats all there really is to it his decision based on what has affected his life might be nothing to others.

Guns firing, airport across the road, planes helicopters taking off all the time. Lights flashing all over place. I fully expected conflicting stories and unintentional genuine mistakes on what was seen and heard by people there.

It is for me as has been reported by Police.

Could well be and probably is in terms of the actually shooting at least. Ultimately it's just going to lead to a gun control argument for a few weeks and not much else.

[Hibernia&Alba]

A bit of interesting analysis on gun culture from the BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41488081

Up until 1975 there was a majority in the USA to ban possession of handguns. Opportunity missed.

Aye, but, sadly, American politics, and particularly the Republican Party, has shifted miles to the right since the mid-seventies. It was around that time that the evangelical Christians started getting organised in politics and the Chicago School of economists became influential - a very destructive combination. It was Nixon, a supposed right wing Republican, who stated 'we're all Keynesians now' during his presidency. How things have changed.

[Just Alf]

Gents... Those still thinking there's "something" in the 2nd shooter thing please see my earlier post... I was able to easily disprove it myself using half an hour of my time.


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[What_the_deuce]

Gents... Those still thinking there's "something" in the 2nd shooter thing please see my earlier post... I was able to easily disprove it myself using half an hour of my time.


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I'm pretty sure you didn't "disprove" it. You may have looked into it on the internet and come to the conclusion that it was just one shooter. That is not the same as disproving it. A forensics team after an analysis of the scene, confirmation that the bullets were only fired from the guy's guns, check of as yet unreleased security futage etc. could probably disprove it. If you can achieve the equivalent of all that from, presumably, thousands of miles away in half an hour then well... let's just say that I think I've disproved you were able to do that with a few minutes of my time.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm pretty sure you didn't "disprove" it. You may have looked into it on the internet and come to the conclusion that it was just one shooter. That is not the same as disproving it. A forensics team after an analysis of the scene, confirmation that the bullets were only fired from the guy's guns, check of as yet unreleased security futage etc. could probably disprove it. If you can achieve the equivalent of all that from, presumably, thousands of miles away in half an hour then well... let's just say that I think I've disproved you were able to do that with a few minutes of my time.

As yet there is no evidence to support the speculation that there was a second gunman. Where is the broken window on the 4th floor?

[Captain Trips]

As yet there is no evidence to support the speculation that there was a second gunman. Where is the broken window on the 4th floor?

Indeed.

A second gunman makes this story even bigger and unfortunatley these things get out in order to just do that. There needs to be a further window broken and as far as I am aware there isnt. So if no window broken people can then say maybe in bushes etc etc.

We can all only go on what we are told and who you choose to believe I on this occasion choose to believe the official line. No need to disprove anything if there is a 2nd gunman then we are all waiting, until such as times the only thing about a 2nd gunman involved the fourth/fifth floor there is as i understand no broken windows there leaning to thus far it is just 1 man.

[Captain Trips]

I'm pretty sure you didn't "disprove" it. You may have looked into it on the internet and come to the conclusion that it was just one shooter. That is not the same as disproving it. A forensics team after an analysis of the scene, confirmation that the bullets were only fired from the guy's guns, check of as yet unreleased security futage etc. could probably disprove it. If you can achieve the equivalent of all that from, presumably, thousands of miles away in half an hour then well... let's just say that I think I've disproved you were able to do that with a few minutes of my time.

But forensics do not need to disprove anything, I can say there are 10 gunmen are forensics etc going to then disprove that there were another 9? No they are not. If there is no other gunman then there is nothing for them to do. I can ask forensics to come to my house and disprove a person was shooting folk from my house. It is actually quite a thing to go and disprove something that has not happened so the onus is there being something to actually check and thus far we have had rumour of a 4/5th floor shooter that IMO with knowledge of said City and hotels 1 window broken stands out a mile.The only broken windows are from the confirmed suite.

[RyeSloan]

But forensics do not need to disprove anything, I can say there are 10 gunmen are forensics etc going to then disprove that there were another 9? No they are not. If there is no other gunman then there is nothing for them to do. I can ask forensics to come to my house and disprove a person was shooting folk from my house. It is actually quite a thing to go and disprove something that has not happened so the onus is there being something to actually check and thus far we have had rumour of a 4/5th floor shooter that IMO with knowledge of said City and hotels 1 window broken stands out a mile.The only broken windows are from the confirmed suite.

Not to mention the complete lack of reasoning why there would be no official reporting of a second gunman...I mean 1 or 2 or 10 the massacre happened so it's beyond credibility that there was an instant cover up to prevent the 'true' story from coming out. Who would have anything to gain from such an odd approach?

Pretty clear that people are happy to believe anything as long as it's posted on the internet, has a wobbly grainy video and is not the 'official' line.

[CropleyWasGod]

2nd shooter or not, the police are not ruling out the suggestion that there was an accomplice.

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[Captain Trips]

2nd shooter or not, the police are not ruling out the suggestion that there was an accomplice.

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An accomplice though and 2nd shooter are different. He may well have had assistance.

[CropleyWasGod]

An accomplice though and 2nd shooter are different. He may well have had assistance.No ****, Ironside? [emoji16][emoji16]

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[Captain Trips]

No ****, Ironside? [emoji16][emoji16]

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Cheers

[Betty Boop]

Why is this freak not being called out as a terrorist ?

[CropleyWasGod]

Why is this freak not being called out as a terrorist ?His motive hasn't been established, so we don't know if he fits the definition of a terrorist.

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[Moulin Yarns]

His motive hasn't been established, so we don't know if he fits the definition of a terrorist.

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What he did caused terror. He was a terrorist

[RyeSloan]

What he did caused terror. He was a terrorist

Logical but not really the definition of a terrorist.

[CropleyWasGod]

What he did caused terror. He was a terroristI'd agree on the first part, but I'll hand you over to my assistant on the second, particularly as it's defined in the US.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_terrorism


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[What_the_deuce]

As yet there is no evidence to support the speculation that there was a second gunman. Where is the broken window on the 4th floor?

Well why would a second shooter need to be shooting from a window? I'm sure there are other possible locations. That is not the point I made at all but, since you decided it was, that's a potential answer to your refutation. My point was simply, and I think accurately, that the poster to whom I was replying had not disproven the possibility in half an hour. I also am tending to think that it was just one guy. But I'm not 100% sure. I have no proof either way and am not going to claim that I can prove or disprove anything relating to this incident.

What is the point in replying to someone's comment if you are going to reply to something they didn't say? Just make a separate comment without an irrelevant quote.

[Just Alf]

Well why would a second shooter need to be shooting from a window? I'm sure there are other possible locations. That is not the point I made at all but, since you decided it was, that's a potential answer to your refutation. My point was simply, and I think accurately, that the poster to whom I was replying had not disproven the possibility in half an hour. I also am tending to think that it was just one guy. But I'm not 100% sure. I have no proof either way and am not going to claim that I can prove or disprove anything relating to this incident.

What is the point in replying to someone's comment if you are going to reply to something they didn't say? Just make a separate comment without an irrelevant quote.

It was me you replied too... I proved there was no 2nd shooter on the 4th floor as was initially claimed.... Dunno if there were other shooters in the bushes etc, but then there's none being claimed to exist that I know of.

[heretoday]

Sales of these bump stock devices have rocketed since the shooting.
What a bunch of odd bods the Americans are.

[Hibrandenburg]

Well why would a second shooter need to be shooting from a window? I'm sure there are other possible locations. That is not the point I made at all but, since you decided it was, that's a potential answer to your refutation. My point was simply, and I think accurately, that the poster to whom I was replying had not disproven the possibility in half an hour. I also am tending to think that it was just one guy. But I'm not 100% sure. I have no proof either way and am not going to claim that I can prove or disprove anything relating to this incident.

What is the point in replying to someone's comment if you are going to reply to something they didn't say? Just make a separate comment without an irrelevant quote.

I think the 2nd shooter was positioned on the grassy knoll.

[Captain Trips]

Well why would a second shooter need to be shooting from a window? I'm sure there are other possible locations. That is not the point I made at all but, since you decided it was, that's a potential answer to your refutation. My point was simply, and I think accurately, that the poster to whom I was replying had not disproven the possibility in half an hour. I also am tending to think that it was just one guy. But I'm not 100% sure. I have no proof either way and am not going to claim that I can prove or disprove anything relating to this incident.

What is the point in replying to someone's comment if you are going to reply to something they didn't say? Just make a separate comment without an irrelevant quote.

There was nothing to disprove though. Why is there even talk of a 2nd shooter? It is due to mass confusion and the only location mentioned was 4th floor this is were it has come from. It appears no window broken so at this juncture the main factor in thinking there was a 2nd shooter has no founding. If we go ok not there maybe somewhere else well to me thats folk just making up stuff.

Ok so where next? The 6th floor, The Excalibur? The Tropicana? So it appears the evidence somebody else was shooting out another window was not correct but rather than the whole thing being written off some have decided maybe they were not in window but elsewhere it just will not end.

Not saying you but some folk want there to be more to things or think there must be. I was only alerted to possible 2nd shooter due to footage, having looked at it and seeing no broken windows. There is no 2nd shooter at this juncture based on what is known thus far.