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MichaelTheCelt
27-09-2017, 02:21 PM
The game against yous this weekend we'll be wearing the National Famine Memorial Day logo on our shirts, been doing this for quite a number of years now.

Out of curiosity have Hibs put this logo on the shirt? Or do they commemorate it in another way?

CropleyWasGod
27-09-2017, 02:23 PM
The game against yous this weekend we'll be wearing the National Famine Memorial Day logo on our shirts, been doing this for quite a number of years now.

Out of curiosity have Hibs put this logo on the shirt? Or do they commemorate it in another way?

Why would we?

Hibernian Verse
27-09-2017, 02:25 PM
The game against yous this weekend we'll be wearing the National Famine Memorial Day logo on our shirts, been doing this for quite a number of years now.

Out of curiosity have Hibs put this logo on the shirt? Or do they commemorate it in another way?

Is it not an Irish memorial day?

Keith_M
27-09-2017, 02:28 PM
:offski:

MichaelTheCelt
27-09-2017, 02:28 PM
Why would we?
Considering Hibernians origins why not?


Is it not an Irish memorial day?
From wiki.

The National Famine Commemoration Day (Irish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language): Lá Cuimhneacháin Náisiúnta an Ghorta Mhóir[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Famine_Commemoration_Day#cite_note-pr2012ga-1)) is an annual observance in Ireland commemorating the Great Famine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)). A week-long programme of events leads up to the day, usually a Sunday in May.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Famine_Commemoration_Day#cite_note-Wylie-2) It has been organised officially by the government of Ireland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Ireland) since 2008.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Famine_Commemoration_Day#cite_note-English-3) The main event is held in a different place each year, rotating among the four provinces of Ireland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provinces_of_Ireland).[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Famine_Commemoration_Day#cite_note-English-3) There is also an international event, held in a place important for the Irish diaspora (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_diaspora).[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Famine_Commemoration_Day#cite_note-intpr2012-4)

chippy
27-09-2017, 02:28 PM
Why would we?

I think you know why ' if you know your history' re the origins of Hibs and many of current supporters descendants.

CropleyWasGod
27-09-2017, 02:30 PM
Considering Hibernians origins why not?


From wiki.

The National Famine Commemoration Day (Irish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language): Lá Cuimhneacháin Náisiúnta an Ghorta Mhóir[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Famine_Commemoration_Day#cite_note-pr2012ga-1)) is an annual observance in Ireland commemorating the Great Famine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)). A week-long programme of events leads up to the day, usually a Sunday in May.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Famine_Commemoration_Day#cite_note-Wylie-2) It has been organised officially by the government of Ireland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Ireland) since 2008.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Famine_Commemoration_Day#cite_note-English-3) The main event is held in a different place each year, rotating among the four provinces of Ireland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provinces_of_Ireland).[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Famine_Commemoration_Day#cite_note-English-3) There is also an international event, held in a place important for the Irish diaspora (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_diaspora).[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Famine_Commemoration_Day#cite_note-intpr2012-4)

We are a football team, and, as such, we rarely get involved in politics.

We are based in Leith. I'd say that it would be more appropriate to commemorate the victims of the Gretna rail disaster.

MichaelTheCelt
27-09-2017, 02:33 PM
We are a football team, and, as such, we rarely get involved in politics.

We are based in Leith. I'd say that it would be more appropriate to commemorate the victims of the Gretna rail disaster.
Don't see how this has to be into a political statement? The creation of Hibernian was important to the Irish immigrants who came here as a result from the famine.

Congruence
27-09-2017, 02:34 PM
I think you know why ' if you know your history' re the origins of Hibs and many of current supporters descendants.

:flag::aok:

CropleyWasGod
27-09-2017, 02:35 PM
Don't see how this has to be into a political statement? The creation of Hibernian was important to the Irish immigrants who here as a result from the famine.

Do you celebrate the creation of Hibs as an important date in your own club's development? :greengrin

Congruence
27-09-2017, 02:35 PM
Don't see how this has to be into a political statement? The creation of Hibernian was important to the Irish immigrants who came here as a result from the famine.

:thumbsup:

Lancs Harp
27-09-2017, 02:35 PM
We became much much more than an Irish Immigrant football team a long long long time ago.

The club acknowledges and is proud of its roots and indeed its entire history not just a small part of it.

blackpoolhibs
27-09-2017, 02:38 PM
The game against yous this weekend we'll be wearing the National Famine Memorial Day logo on our shirts, been doing this for quite a number of years now.

Out of curiosity have Hibs put this logo on the shirt? Or do they commemorate it in another way?

Hibernian as a football club has evolved over the years, and don't feel the need to remember every tragic event that's happened in Ireland or indeed anywhere else.

MichaelTheCelt
27-09-2017, 02:38 PM
Do you celebrate the creation of Hibs as an important date in your own club's development? :greengrin
I see Hibernian's creation as an important event in Scotland of course why wouldn't I? It gave Brother Walfrid inspiration to do the same here. If you are relating it to 'Celtic stealing players' and whatever which I think you are then nah not really. Why do I get the feeling you are making this a Celtic issue...

marinello59
27-09-2017, 02:40 PM
Don't see how this has to be into a political statement? The creation of Hibernian was important to the Irish immigrants who came here as a result from the famine.

I don't think anybody here needs a lecture on OUR clubs history.

Hibernian Verse
27-09-2017, 02:40 PM
Don't see how this has to be into a political statement? The creation of Hibernian was important to the Irish immigrants who came here as a result from the famine.

In that case, I assume Celtic will be wearing poppies in rememberance of fans/players/staff who have fought and died in the British Army over the club's history.

Carheenlea
27-09-2017, 02:41 PM
Let's all just have a minutes applause and await instruction of the next event for us to commemorate at the football.

CropleyWasGod
27-09-2017, 02:43 PM
I see Hibernian's creation as an important event in Scotland of course why wouldn't I? It gave Brother Walfrid inspiration to do the same here. If you are relating it to 'Celtic stealing players' and whatever which I think you are then nah not really. Why do I get the feeling you are making this a Celtic issue...

No idea. Paranoia maybe? Wasn't my intention.

I don't see why it should be a Hibs issue either. We already celebrate our roots in our name and our badge.

Kato
27-09-2017, 02:43 PM
Celtic's roots are in Edinburgh but I never see them commemorate that. In fact it's ignored totally.

Frazerbob
27-09-2017, 02:43 PM
Oh great, this is going to end well!

MichaelTheCelt
27-09-2017, 02:44 PM
I don't think anybody here needs a lecture on OUR clubs history.
That was a back and forth between me and yer man Cropley there who seemed confused as to why Hibernian would even commemorate the famine or why someone would even ask. If anything chastise the man who can't see the link.

Thanks :aok:

Lancs Harp
27-09-2017, 02:46 PM
The game against yous this weekend we'll be wearing the National Famine Memorial Day logo on our shirts, been doing this for quite a number of years now.

Out of curiosity have Hibs put this logo on the shirt? Or do they commemorate it in another way?

Michael in a word, no, we dont.

CapitalGreen
27-09-2017, 02:50 PM
I see Hibernian's creation as an important event in Scotland of course why wouldn't I? It gave Brother Walfrid inspiration to do the same here. If you are relating it to 'Celtic stealing players' and whatever which I think you are then nah not really. Why do I get the feeling you are making this a Celtic issue...

We commemorate our origins every time we pull on our green strips and scarfs, or when we kiss our badge containing a harp. Every time we sing our teams name we are commemorating our clubs heritage and origins. We do not need to partake in a commemoration day organised by a foreign government, held in another country to remember where we came from.

givescotlandfreedom
27-09-2017, 02:51 PM
In that case, I assume Celtic will be wearing poppies in rememberance of fans/players/staff who have fought and died in the British Army over the club's history.

Celtic have worn the poppy on numerous occasions, albeit to the annoyance of some of their support.

lord bunberry
27-09-2017, 02:51 PM
Michael in a word, no, we dont.
Have we ever done so in the past, or is this a relatively new thing?


edit, I see from earlier in the thread that it's only been going since 2008

ben johnson
27-09-2017, 02:52 PM
Why commemorate the famine this weekend ? I thought the government in Ireland were pushing for May

I would think the Hibs fans would not feel like getting involved at Parkhead as it's one of the most unwelcoming grounds in the country due to the stewarding Go along and view the game from the worst vantage point at any ground in Scotland. Celtic certainly don't care about away fans

Hibernian Verse
27-09-2017, 02:56 PM
Celtic have worn the poppy on numerous occasions, albeit to the annoyance of some of their support.

When was the last time? (Genuine question, I can't find much info on it).

My point is that if wearing commemorations on a strip isn't political, then surely they will wear something the rest of the SPL do on remembrance weekend.

CropleyWasGod
27-09-2017, 02:56 PM
That was a back and forth between me and yer man Cropley there who seemed confused as to why Hibernian would even commemorate the famine or why someone would even ask. If anything chastise the man who can't see the link.

Thanks :aok:

I see the link fine, thanks.

What I don't see is why we should celebrate our roots any more than we already do.

lord bunberry
27-09-2017, 02:58 PM
I see the link fine, thanks.

What I don't see is why we should celebrate our roots any more than we already do.
You could argue that the famine is one of the main reasons for our existence. Fwiw I don't think we should get involved in this sort of thing, but I can see the logic behind the op.

heretoday
27-09-2017, 03:00 PM
It's a funny old game.

More tea, vicar?

Sir David Gray
27-09-2017, 03:07 PM
The game against yous this weekend we'll be wearing the National Famine Memorial Day logo on our shirts, been doing this for quite a number of years now.

Out of curiosity have Hibs put this logo on the shirt? Or do they commemorate it in another way?

We are a Scottish football club, why would there be any need for us to commemorate this?

We are very comfortable with the history of our club and we are more than happy to remind people of how we were formed. We play in green, our name is the Latin word for Ireland and we have a harp on our badge.

Unlike Celtic, our club has managed to evolve with the times and we are very happy with our identity as a Scottish club with Irish origins and a club that is open and welcoming to anyone regardless of any religious or political persuasions.

I do not see any need for Hibs to wear a special shirt to commemorate Famine Day and I do not know what Celtic are hoping to achieve by marking such an event.

BH Hibs
27-09-2017, 03:09 PM
:offski:

Me too :greengrin.

CentreLine
27-09-2017, 03:26 PM
I think you know why ' if you know your history' re the origins of Hibs and many of current supporters ancestors.


Fixed that for you 😉

CropleyWasGod
27-09-2017, 03:31 PM
Me too :greengrin.

I may join you.

The thought of being chastised by M59 is scaring the **** out of me.

Saturday Boy
27-09-2017, 03:50 PM
You could argue that the famine is one of the main reasons for our existence. Fwiw I don't think we should get involved in this sort of thing, but I can see the logic behind the op.

I like your thinking here.

Maybe we should have a day to commemorate Sir Walter Raleigh?

If he hadn't invented the potato, or something like that, there would have been no famine and therefore no Hibs.

Or maybe I'm over thinking this 😉

greenginger
27-09-2017, 03:51 PM
Don't see how this has to be into a political statement? The creation of Hibernian was important to the Irish immigrants who came here as a result from the famine.

I don't think they were immigrants. We were all part of the same country when Hibernian Football Club was formed.

Pete
27-09-2017, 03:53 PM
🤐

Liam89
27-09-2017, 03:54 PM
We are a Scottish football club, why would there be any need for us to commemorate this?

We are very comfortable with the history of our club and we are more than happy to remind people of how we were formed. We play in green, our name is the Latin word for Ireland and we have a harp on our badge.

Unlike Celtic, our club has managed to evolve with the times and we are very happy with our identity as a Scottish club with Irish origins and a club that is open and welcoming to anyone regardless of any religious or political persuasions.

I do not see any need for Hibs to wear a special shirt to commemorate Famine Day and I do not know what Celtic are hoping to achieve by marking such an event.

I echo this man's sentiments.

bigwheel
27-09-2017, 03:55 PM
I don't think they were immigrants. We were all part of the same country when Hibernian Football Club was formed.

Our founders created this club so that they could get a game of football, amongst others things, they were kept out of football games..they were also isolated in terms
of education, health, housing and jobs etc...as a club we are now integrated, but let's not suggest society was integrated back then..

bod
27-09-2017, 03:59 PM
I like your thinking here.

Maybe we should have a day to commemorate Sir Walter Raleigh?

If he hadn't invented the potato, or something like that, there would have been no famine and therefore no Hibs.

Or maybe I'm over thinking this 😉

He invented bicycles

JohnMcM
27-09-2017, 04:03 PM
In that case, I assume Celtic will be wearing poppies in rememberance of fans/players/staff who have fought and died in the British Army over the club's history.

You, my good sir, may have just put your finger on the difference between right thinking people and those caught in the helter-skelter of past prejudice, current and yet to be lived prejudice.

I now cue this thread be closed before the vitriolic hatred of those outwith our club towards each other be brought to this, our, football fan's chosen site.

Scott Allan Key
27-09-2017, 04:04 PM
He invented bicycles

And the smoky toilets at half time, the stupid get.

H113EE5
27-09-2017, 04:06 PM
Why don’t you get lost back to the sectarian village and take your Mickey-Mouse cod irish crap with you.

greenginger
27-09-2017, 04:07 PM
Our founders created this club so that they could get a game of football, amongst others things, they were kept out of football games..they were also isolated in terms
of education, health, housing and jobs etc...as a club we are now integrated, but let's not suggest society was integrated back then..

That still did not make them " immigrants ".

JohnMcM
27-09-2017, 04:08 PM
Why don’t you get lost back to the sectarian village and take your Mickey-Mouse cod irish crap with you.

To whom you direct this comment?

ekhibee
27-09-2017, 04:12 PM
It was just a question from MTC, I know where he's coming from but I wouldn't agree with it in a Scottish context. No need to insult him though, as 1 or 2 have. He's been on here a few times and he's perfectly reasonable with his comments.

H113EE5
27-09-2017, 04:24 PM
To whom you direct this comment?

OP

HibeesLA
27-09-2017, 04:26 PM
The National Famine Commemoration Day (Irish: Lá Cuimhneacháin Náisiúnta an Ghorta Mhóir[1]) is an annual observance in Ireland commemorating the Great Famine.

Bit in bold/red sums it up for me.

OxoHibby
27-09-2017, 04:33 PM
Do you celebrate the creation of Hibs as an important date in your own club's development? :greengrin

😂

Keith_M
27-09-2017, 04:43 PM
There's some unnecessarily nasty comments towards the OP on here. If you don't want Hibs to do this, then fine, just write that. No need for the nasty stuff.


FWIW, I don't have any Irish roots myself but if Hibs decided to to this, it wouldn't bother me one bit and if they don't, then fine. It's up to the club.

Nitten Hibee
27-09-2017, 04:43 PM
Celtic having a day to mark the famine sounds very much like a part of the Glasgow "banter" much like The Rangers having their big bloated forces day, Leave that crap in the west thank you very much

bigwheel
27-09-2017, 04:45 PM
That still did not make them " immigrants ".

Do you think they felt like Irish immigrants or Scottish citizens ?

I know what my understanding is ...

Bostonhibby
27-09-2017, 04:49 PM
He invented bicyclesHe discovered tobacco as well, maybe we could have a smokers and a non smokers day where they could all get together at a football match and shout hate at each other that has nothing to do with football?

Bit like a celtc sevco match.

On the OP, not for me.

Sent from my SM-J320FN using Tapatalk

Lancs Harp
27-09-2017, 04:53 PM
He discovered tobacco as well, maybe we could have a smokers and a non smokers day where they could all get together at a football match and shout hate at each other that has nothing to do with football?

Bit like a celtc sevco match.

On the OP, not for me.

Sent from my SM-J320FN using Tapatalk

Not for me we'd get told off by the Police and face an SFA fine for pyrotechnics. :wink:

Iggy Pope
27-09-2017, 04:53 PM
There's some unnecessarily nasty comments towards the OP on here. If you don't want Hibs to do this, then fine, just write that. No need for the nasty stuff.


FWIW, I don't have any Irish roots myself but if Hibs decided to to this, it wouldn't bother me one bit and if they don't, then fine. It's up to the club.

A voice of reason.
One or two (prominent contributors) have got away with insulting posters recently on the oremise that they support another club.
I find it all very Hunnish / Diet Hunnish behaviour . There is a prevalent inability to debate.

Bostonhibby
27-09-2017, 04:54 PM
Not for me we'd get told off by the Police and face an SFA fine for pyrotechnics. :wink:Would Vapes be okay for the purposes of staging the ceremony?

Sent from my SM-J320FN using Tapatalk

WhileTheChief..
27-09-2017, 04:58 PM
Never heard of this day before.

Guess that as it's an Irish national thing it's meant for Ireland no?

Stantons Angel
27-09-2017, 04:58 PM
That was a back and forth between me and yer man Cropley there who seemed confused as to why Hibernian would even commemorate the famine or why someone would even ask. If anything chastise the man who can't see the link.

Thanks :aok:


As previous posters have tried to tell you, HIBERNIAN FC having evolved from Irish immigrants, fleeing the famine in Ireland, founded us and the club have always kept that history alive in their name and within our badge.

Fundamentally we are a SCOTTISH football club playing our football in the SCOTTISH league whilst always being proud of our history.

Hibernian are not associated with any religious, political or military assignations or attachments. We are a FOOTBALL team and all we want to do is play football the way it should be played and that is being devoid of any affiliation that would bring our club and the game into disrepute!

If Celtic want to commemorate a cause then let them get on with it! Its a shame when your club are tittering on the brink of being shunted out of Europe you are more bothered with something that happened long ago in another country than the future of your football team in SCOTLAND.

blackpoolhibs
27-09-2017, 04:58 PM
We should do something, Hearts are having chips, perhaps we should do Jackets to commemorate this fine day?

Beefster
27-09-2017, 05:01 PM
It was ‘International Talk Like A Pirate Day’ last week. Anyone any idea how Hibs are commemorating the event? If we don’t have a parrot and cutlass sewn onto the jersey, I’m going to be livid.

Beefster
27-09-2017, 05:05 PM
There's some unnecessarily nasty comments towards the OP on here. If you don't want Hibs to do this, then fine, just write that. No need for the nasty stuff.

The OP seems to be a bit of a ****-stirrer IMHO and seems keen to perpetuate the myth that we’re all pals with Celtic. .

Unless he posted the same stuff on the Aberdeen/Hearts/etc forums, then I take it all back.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
27-09-2017, 05:07 PM
You could argue that the famine is one of the main reasons for our existence. Fwiw I don't think we should get involved in this sort of thing, but I can see the logic behind the op.

Ageee. The OP only asked a question. It seems to me some doth protest a little too much.

I agree that getting involved in this is probably too political, given the febrile and polarising nature of the debate on the irish dispora (as witnessed by some of the posts on this thread).

However i do find it sad that a conversation around something like this cant really even take place - but thats 21st century Scotland

blackpoolhibs
27-09-2017, 05:10 PM
Why don't we commemorate this?


http://www.family-history.co.uk/news/2015/05/potato-famine-in-scotland/

Thecat23
27-09-2017, 05:12 PM
In this day and age i really wish we didn’t even do poppy on the shirts never mind anything else. These days people who don’t wear one get hammered so it then becomes a big deal.

We can all pay our respects outside of the 90 mins of football with the club giving statements or other things they feel is right. Seems these days everyone MUST wear a poppy (I do btw) but I respect anyone who doesn’t as it is their right.

Football should be just that, leave the rest outside

CockneyRebel
27-09-2017, 05:13 PM
Celtic's roots are in Edinburgh but I never see them commemorate that. In fact it's ignored totally.


Right into the corner pocket!

CockneyRebel
27-09-2017, 05:16 PM
Why don't we commemorate this?


http://www.family-history.co.uk/news/2015/05/potato-famine-in-scotland/


If we commemorate theirs will they commemorate ours?

greenginger
27-09-2017, 05:23 PM
Do you think they felt like Irish immigrants or Scottish citizens ?

I know what my understanding is ...


My take is from my own family.

My dad's grandfather and two of his brothers and granny's father came over from Ireland in the 1870's to find work in the coal mines in Midlothian and East Lothian .

Two of them became pit foremen and the whole family have never considered themselves anything other than Scottish.

blackpoolhibs
27-09-2017, 05:32 PM
Considering Hibernians origins why not?


From wiki.

The National Famine Commemoration Day (Irish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language): Lá Cuimhneacháin Náisiúnta an Ghorta Mhóir[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Famine_Commemoration_Day#cite_note-pr2012ga-1)) is an annual observance in Ireland commemorating the Great Famine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)). A week-long programme of events leads up to the day, usually a Sunday in May.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Famine_Commemoration_Day#cite_note-Wylie-2) It has been organised officially by the government of Ireland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Ireland) since 2008.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Famine_Commemoration_Day#cite_note-English-3) The main event is held in a different place each year, rotating among the four provinces of Ireland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provinces_of_Ireland).[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Famine_Commemoration_Day#cite_note-English-3) There is also an international event, held in a place important for the Irish diaspora (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_diaspora).[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Famine_Commemoration_Day#cite_note-intpr2012-4)


Do you lot commemorate Xmas in August?

MyJo
27-09-2017, 05:40 PM
The game against yous this weekend we'll be wearing the National Famine Memorial Day logo on our shirts, been doing this for quite a number of years now.

Out of curiosity have Hibs put this logo on the shirt? Or do they commemorate it in another way?

Are you joining in with Tartan week and commemorating the declaration of arbroath in April?

Do you stick a wee saltire on your kits in November to commemorate St Andrews day?

Whats your plans for comemorating the 100th anniversary of WW1 next year?

hibsbollah
27-09-2017, 05:41 PM
Why don’t you get lost back to the sectarian village and take your Mickey-Mouse cod irish crap with you.

There's just no need for this sort of response. The boy just asked a question. We have Irish roots, it's a fact.

Nakedmanoncrack
27-09-2017, 06:00 PM
In this day and age i really wish we didn’t even do poppy on the shirts never mind anything else. These days people who don’t wear one get hammered so it then becomes a big deal.

We can all pay our respects outside of the 90 mins of football with the club giving statements or other things they feel is right. Seems these days everyone MUST wear a poppy (I do btw) but I respect anyone who doesn’t as it is their right.

Football should be just that, leave the rest outside

Agreed, there's no need for these statements on a football strip, unfortunately it would be impossible for Hibs or anyone else who has given in to this recent fashion to step back from it without facing a massive backlash. Anyway, I imagine many of those who ridicule the idea of a famine commemoration on the shirt would be up in arms if they didn't get their poppy on the shirt. But if the principle of commemorative emblems on shirts is accepted, don't be offended when someone puts one on that you don't agree with.

Nakedmanoncrack
27-09-2017, 06:02 PM
Why don’t you get lost back to the sectarian village and take your Mickey-Mouse cod irish crap with you.

Well done, the closest to a sectarian comment on this thread.

IGRIGI
27-09-2017, 06:05 PM
Top trolling 😁

I'm_cabbaged
27-09-2017, 06:11 PM
A voice of reason.
One or two (prominent contributors) have got away with insulting posters recently on the oremise that they support another club.
I find it all very Hunnish / Diet Hunnish behaviour . There is a prevalent inability to debate.

100%

NAE NOOKIE
27-09-2017, 06:18 PM
We are a Scottish football club, why would there be any need for us to commemorate this?

We are very comfortable with the history of our club and we are more than happy to remind people of how we were formed. We play in green, our name is the Latin word for Ireland and we have a harp on our badge.

Unlike Celtic, our club has managed to evolve with the times and we are very happy with our identity as a Scottish club with Irish origins and a club that is open and welcoming to anyone regardless of any religious or political persuasions.

I do not see any need for Hibs to wear a special shirt to commemorate Famine Day and I do not know what Celtic are hoping to achieve by marking such an event.

:top marks

In all honesty I don't have a problem with Celtic doing this if they want to ............ its far more them than us and there can be no doubt they probably have more supporters who can trace their roots back to folk affected by the famine than we could.

But on the other hand its symptomatic of the difference between us and Celtic ...... Hibs have moved on over the years to become a club which can be identified as being from the country it is based in, formed in, and with which the overwhelming majority of its supporters identify. Roots are something you grow from .... I sometimes think the growing part has been lost on Celtic and far too many of its supporters.

norhfc
27-09-2017, 06:19 PM
Both sides of my family ended up in Edinburgh/Leith during the famine.
All are Hibs fans, it's in our DNA.
Totally against the idea of commemorating the famine or the wearing of poppies on the shirts. Keep it a personal choice not one for the club to make. We all know and respect our history, no need to flaunt it, will just drag us into the murky world of sectarianism.

blackpoolhibs
27-09-2017, 06:22 PM
Tuesday, February 13, 2018 is pancake day, stock up on chocolate peanut butter and bananas for this momentous day.

Scouse Hibee
27-09-2017, 06:32 PM
Why don’t you get lost back to the sectarian village and take your Mickey-Mouse cod irish crap with you.

No need.

HH81
27-09-2017, 06:41 PM
We missed the big one of 2017...

2 June 2017. National Fish and Chip Day.

bigwheel
27-09-2017, 07:22 PM
My take is from my own family.

My dad's grandfather and two of his brothers and granny's father came over from Ireland in the 1870's to find work in the coal mines in Midlothian and East Lothian .

Two of them became pit foremen and the whole family have never considered themselves anything other than Scottish.


I don't really know what point you are trying to make - your Dad's grandfather and the rest that came over in the 1870's were immigrants...that's simply a fact...it has no negative connotation to me (my family has a similar history - just a little earlier..)...as were many of those who created our beautiful club..

hibbiedon
27-09-2017, 07:44 PM
In that case, I assume Celtic will be wearing poppies in rememberance of fans/players/staff who have fought and died in the British Army over the club's history.


Well said :flag::flag::flag::flag:

Eyrie
27-09-2017, 07:54 PM
Tuesday, February 13, 2018 is pancake day, stock up on chocolate peanut butter and bananas for this momentous day.

As a Scottish football club, I think it is entirely appropriate for us to celebrate this momentous occasion at our next home game on 14 October. In fact, I'm away to post on an Aberdeen forum to request that they join in so both clubs can cover their strips in chocolate peanut butter as a tribute.

jabis
27-09-2017, 07:57 PM
Stop this nonsense now..........I've 2,000 Terry Wogan celtic strips to shift down the barras!

Just Alf
27-09-2017, 08:48 PM
Was seeing both sides of this discussion and was leaning a wee bit towards (understanding) the OP's view.... until I saw that Bobby Sands flag and heard the IRA songs on TV tonight...... :rolleyes:

I'm Out.




GGTTH!
:flag::flag:

blaikie
27-09-2017, 08:49 PM
I feel uncomfortable with our club putting a poppy on their shirt once a year so this is a no from me!

Football and politics don't mix!

Hibernia&Alba
27-09-2017, 09:00 PM
IMHO, some of the replies to Michael have been OTT. It's an act of remembrance by the Irish diaspora, many of whom ended up wherever they are in the world as a consequence of the Irish famine. I don't think it's outrageous to ask whether Hibernian are participating in any way. Whether we should or not is a matter of opinion, but it's a reasonable question. It's nothing to get upset about.

Congruence
27-09-2017, 09:22 PM
There's just no need for this sort of response. The boy just asked a question. We have Irish roots, it's a fact.

:thumbsup:

Weir07
27-09-2017, 09:22 PM
IMHO, some of the replies to Michael have been OTT. It's an act of remembrance by the Irish diaspora, many of whom ended up wherever they are in the world as a consequence of the Irish famine. I don't think it's outrageous to ask whether Hibernian are participating in any way. Whether we should or not is a matter of opinion, but it's a reasonable question. It's nothing to get upset about.

To me Hibs are a Scottish club based in Edinburgh, loads of clubs have connections with other countries, Aston Villa, Millwall, Newell's Old Boys etc without harking on about it, every Hibs fan I know has no Irish connection what so ever and it's something that's never mentioned, seems to me it's only elements of the Celtic and Rangers support that mainly want to drag up Irish\British nationalism to define themselves or their club, total nonsense in my view, let football be about supporting your local team, representing your town or city, instead of some political or religious viewpoint.

Congruence
27-09-2017, 09:24 PM
IMHO, some of the replies to Michael have been OTT. It's an act of remembrance by the Irish diaspora, many of whom ended up wherever they are in the world as a consequence of the Irish famine. I don't think it's outrageous to ask whether Hibernian are participating in any way. Whether we should or not is a matter of opinion, but it's a reasonable question. It's nothing to get upset about.

:aok:

blackpoolhibs
27-09-2017, 09:27 PM
IMHO, some of the replies to Michael have been OTT. It's an act of remembrance by the Irish diaspora, many of whom ended up wherever they are in the world as a consequence of the Irish famine. I don't think it's outrageous to ask whether Hibernian are participating in any way. Whether we should or not is a matter of opinion, but it's a reasonable question. It's nothing to get upset about.

What has the Irish famine got to do with football in Scotland 2017?

In fact what has it got to do with football at all?

Hibernia&Alba
27-09-2017, 09:33 PM
What has the Irish famine got to do with football in Scotland 2017?

In fact what has it got to do with football at all?

By definition all acts of remembrance are based in past events: war memorials, minute's silences etc. I don't think the OP's question is out of line for a club founded exclusively by Irishmen. Folk can agree or disagree with participation in the commemoration, but it's a reasonable question.

blackpoolhibs
27-09-2017, 09:35 PM
By definition all acts of remembrance are based in past events: war memorials, minute's silences etc. I don't think the OP's question is out of line for a club founded exclusively by Irishmen. Folk can agree or disagree with participation in the commemoration, but it's a reasonable question.

If the Irish want to remember it, then fine on they go. Its nowt to do with me or anyone i know, or anything at all to do with football.

One Day Soon
27-09-2017, 09:37 PM
Top trolling ��

It really is.

My comments are somewhat coloured by my total and utter disdain for both of the ugly sisters and their historic destruction of the Scottish game over decades of tolerating and profiting from the most disgusting sectarianism. I have tremendous respect for the achievements of all those Scottish clubs which managed to achieve success with only local geographical support. Anything achieved by those pulling from a Scotland wide division is tainted as far as I'm concerned.

So when the question is posed by a Celtc supporter on an Hibernian message board as to whether we will be commemorating the Irish famine on National Famine Memorial day I see the question and the answer almost entirely through the prism of what the illegitimate dominance of the ugly sisters has done to the Scottish game and to our club. I see a loaded question and a perspective which looks at our club from the wrong premise altogether.

I'd no more expect the club to commemorate the Irish famine today because of our Irish origins 140 years ago than I would expect the club to decide that we should celebrate every Catholic feast day today because of the Catholic faith of the Irish ancestors who founded the club. I say that as a Catholic.

We are secure in who we are, where we came from and how we got here. We don't need to plastic ourselves up in any way - because our culture and identity is firmly Leith, Edinburgh, Scotland. We sing Sunshine on Leith, not the Fields of Athenry. We were first to wear the green and we wear it with pride in our club here, now.

We're not Celtc's cousins. We're not like Celtc. I feel no more affinity with Celtc than I do with Stirling Albion. What Celtc choose to do is a matter for them.

So, with respect, no.

Hibernia&Alba
27-09-2017, 09:38 PM
If the Irish want to remember it, then fine on they go. Its nowt to do with me or anyone i know, or anything at all to do with football.

Which is a perfectly valid opinion. The OP was merely asking with Hibernian FC will participating in an event commemorated by the Irish diaspora. It seems a reasonable question to me.

The Harp Awakes
27-09-2017, 09:42 PM
IMHO, some of the replies to Michael have been OTT. It's an act of remembrance by the Irish diaspora, many of whom ended up wherever they are in the world as a consequence of the Irish famine. I don't think it's outrageous to ask whether Hibernian are participating in any way. Whether we should or not is a matter of opinion, but it's a reasonable question. It's nothing to get upset about.

Totally agree. Given our Club's history and the fact that its formation was a direct result of the famine, Michael asks a reasonable question. The bottom line is that if there was no famine, there would be no Hibernian F.C.

I'm a product of the famine myself and have a cherished picture from Bangor in County Mayo where my mother's grandparents set sale for the UK in the mid 1800s.

Having said all that, recognising tragic events where people have died, such as the famine, holocaust, WW1, etc are best left to personal reflection I feel. Having an official rememberence by the Club of the famine may have the effect of alienating some supporters so I'd be against it. Hibernian are a Club open to all and should be inclusive.

blackpoolhibs
27-09-2017, 09:42 PM
Which is a perfectly valid opinion. The OP was merely asking with Hibernian FC will participating in an event commemorated by the Irish diaspora. It seems a reasonable question to me.

I don't think it is a reasonable question to ask a football fan. Its nothing at all to do with football, all it is is them trying to wind up their bigot brothers because they know they will bite.

We do not need or want that ****** anywhere near our club, as i said in my first post on this, we have evolved, we know where we are from and dont need to shout it from every rooftop to bait our rivals.

Deansy
27-09-2017, 09:45 PM
Jezuz-wept - 4 pages ??. Don't get sucked in, boys - leave this kind of stuff to them - both of them !

Danderhall Hibs
27-09-2017, 09:50 PM
The game against yous this weekend we'll be wearing the National Famine Memorial Day logo on our shirts, been doing this for quite a number of years now.

Out of curiosity have Hibs put this logo on the shirt? Or do they commemorate it in another way?

Not on the shirt. The players usually abstain from tatties in the pre match meal as a means of remembrance though.

silverhibee
27-09-2017, 09:54 PM
Which is a perfectly valid opinion. The OP was merely asking with Hibernian FC will participating in an event commemorated by the Irish diaspora. It seems a reasonable question to me.


I'm sure the OP already new the answer to his question.

He's at it.

Carheenlea
27-09-2017, 09:54 PM
I've visited the Irish Famine Memorial in Murrisk on numerous occasions, and have also attended Easter Rising commemorations in Galway and Athenry. I've visited war memorials and let my daughter place a cross in a memorial garden and tried to explain to her the significance in doing so. I've worn a poppy on occasion, but less so in recent years admittedly due to the shift from rememberence to modern day military championing. This Saturday I'll be at Celtic Park, but the Great Famine will be the last thing on my mind. Likewise, in a few weeks time when I go to see Hibs on the date nearest November 11th, Armistice Day will not feature highly in my mindset.
Just because there is no appetite to see Poppy's and Famine Memorial logo's on football shirts doesn't mean people have no interest in such occasions and are being disrespectful. There are plenty opportunities for individuals to pay respects to past events or champion preferred political causes in a more meaningful manner away from the often petty, point - scoring environment inside Scottish Football stadiums.

Hibernia&Alba
27-09-2017, 09:55 PM
I don't think it is a reasonable question to ask a football fan. Its nothing at all to do with football, all it is is them trying to wind up their bigot brothers because they know they will bite.

We do not need or want that ****** anywhere near our club, as i said in my first post on this, we have evolved, we know where we are from and dont need to shout it from every rooftop to bait our rivals.

I don't think that's fair. We commemorate armistice day every November, which has nothing to do with football. Some people think that is inappropriate at football. The OP was similarly asking whether Hibs will be marking a commemoration held across the world by the Irish diaspora, of which the club is part. We can say aye or naw and debate how the club should mark the occasion should it so choose, but it's a valid question regarding remembrance of a tragic event which facilitated the creation of Hibs. I don't think the question itself warrants jumping down the guy's throat.

Hibernia&Alba
27-09-2017, 09:58 PM
I've visited the Irish Famine Memorial in Murrisk on numerous occasions, and have also attended Easter Rising commemorations in Galway and Athenry. I've visited war memorials and let my daughter place a cross in a memorial garden and tried to explain to her the significance in doing so. I've worn a poppy on occasion, but less so in recent years admittedly due to the shift from rememberence to modern day military championing. This Saturday I'll be at Celtic Park, but the Great Famine will be the last thing on my mind. Likewise, in a few weeks time when I go to see Hibs on the date nearest November 11th, Armistice Day will not feature highly in my mindset.
Just because there is no appetite to see Poppy's and Famine Memorial logo's on football shirts doesn't mean people have no interest in such occasions and are being disrespectful. There are plenty opportunities for individuals to pay respects to past events or champion preferred political causes in a more meaningful manner away from the often petty, point - scoring environment inside Scottish Football stadiums.

Good post. I think individual conscience is best for these things.

The Harp Awakes
27-09-2017, 09:59 PM
Not on the shirt. The players usually abstain from tatties in the pre match meal as a means of remembrance though.

You should post that on FF. The Huns would make you an honorary member for life.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
27-09-2017, 10:04 PM
I don't think it is a reasonable question to ask a football fan. Its nothing at all to do with football, all it is is them trying to wind up their bigot brothers because they know they will bite.

We do not need or want that ****** anywhere near our club, as i said in my first post on this, we have evolved, we know where we are from and dont need to shout it from every rooftop to bait our rivals.

From every rooftop, or from any rooftop?

Tthe answer to his question is no, but the hostility some display at the very question seems odd.

For the original and oldest club of the irish dispora, its hardly outrageous to ask.

Lancs Harp
27-09-2017, 10:06 PM
Quick fire ton there from Michael. I suspect hes having a quiet laugh at the frenzied response as he raises his bat to the pavilion.

One Day Soon
27-09-2017, 10:09 PM
Quick fire ton there from Michael. I suspect hes having a quiet laugh at the frenzied response as he raises his bat to the pavilion.

Indeed

Lester B
27-09-2017, 10:48 PM
It really is.

My comments are somewhat coloured by my total and utter disdain for both of the ugly sisters and their historic destruction of the Scottish game over decades of tolerating and profiting from the most disgusting sectarianism. I have tremendous respect for the achievements of all those Scottish clubs which managed to achieve success with only local geographical support. Anything achieved by those pulling from a Scotland wide division is tainted as far as I'm concerned.

So when the question is posed by a Celtc supporter on an Hibernian message board as to whether we will be commemorating the Irish famine on National Famine Memorial day I see the question and the answer almost entirely through the prism of what the illegitimate dominance of the ugly sisters has done to the Scottish game and to our club. I see a loaded question and a perspective which looks at our club from the wrong premise altogether.

I'd no more expect the club to commemorate the Irish famine today because of our Irish origins 140 years ago than I would expect the club to decide that we should celebrate every Catholic feast day today because of the Catholic faith of the Irish ancestors who founded the club. I say that as a Catholic.

We are secure in who we are, where we came from and how we got here. We don't need to plastic ourselves up in any way - because our culture and identity is firmly Leith, Edinburgh, Scotland. We sing Sunshine on Leith, not the Fields of Athenry. We were first to wear the green and we wear it with pride in our club here, now.

We're not Celtc's cousins. We're not like Celtc. I feel no more affinity with Celtc than I do with Stirling Albion. What Celtc choose to do is a matter for them.

So, with respect, no.

Summed up quite beautifully. Thanks for posting. Only one sentence I disagree with but that's because a mate of mine is involved with Stirling Albion!

My_Wife_Camille
27-09-2017, 11:12 PM
Some of the comments on this thread are nothing short of embarrassing. Celtic are a wonderful football club and we are lucky to have such a strong relationship with them. Ok, they're not perfect but family never is.

Michael, I'd like to apologise on behalf of the real Hibs fans on this forum for some of the responses you've had and I'm looking forward to seeing what your Bhoys have planned! It should be a great occasion in the lead up to another all green Hampden!

may the best greens win!

Hibernia&Alba
27-09-2017, 11:21 PM
Some of the comments on this thread are nothing short of embarrassing. Celtic are a wonderful football club and we are lucky to have such a strong relationship with them. Ok, they're not perfect but family never is.

Michael, I'd like to apologise on behalf of the real Hibs fans on this forum for some of the responses you've had and I'm looking forward to seeing what your Bhoys have planned! It should be a great occasion in the lead up to another all green Hampden!

may the best greens win!

:tin hat:

Deansy
27-09-2017, 11:23 PM
Some of the comments on this thread are nothing short of embarrassing. Celtic are a wonderful football club and we are lucky to have such a strong relationship with them. Ok, they're not perfect but family never is.

Michael, I'd like to apologise on behalf of the real Hibs fans on this forum for some of the responses you've had and I'm looking forward to seeing what your Bhoys have planned! It should be a great occasion in the lead up to another all green Hampden!

may the best greens win!


Aye, right - :sick:

Good one, tho !!

NAE NOOKIE
28-09-2017, 12:38 AM
Some of the comments on this thread are nothing short of embarrassing. Celtic are a wonderful football club and we are lucky to have such a strong relationship with them. Ok, they're not perfect but family never is.

Michael, I'd like to apologise on behalf of the real Hibs fans on this forum for some of the responses you've had and I'm looking forward to seeing what your Bhoys have planned! It should be a great occasion in the lead up to another all green Hampden!

may the best greens win!

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.NcAwvnag1k6hJR4l4TEDPgEsDI&w=240&h=160&c=7&qlt=90&o=4&dpr=1.05&pid=1.7

huggie1875
28-09-2017, 01:19 AM
wow 4 pages on this ball ox

basehibby
28-09-2017, 01:35 AM
The game against yous this weekend we'll be wearing the National Famine Memorial Day logo on our shirts, been doing this for quite a number of years now.

Out of curiosity have Hibs put this logo on the shirt? Or do they commemorate it in another way?

We've never put this logo on our shirt to date for the simple reason that there's not been any pressure from the fans to do so. If there was then I'd have no problem with recognising the tragic events of the Irish famine which did indeed have a significant bearing on the history of our club - just as I have no problem with the now annual addition of a poppy on the Hibs strip in recognition of an event that affected EVERY club in Scotland and a great many beyond our borders.

If I was going to Parkhead on Sat I'd certainly show all due respect whatever was going on but that's not why I'd be there - I'd be there to sing some songs eat a pie and hopefully watch your "bhoys" get a long over due stuffing from the Hibees :greengrin

superbam
28-09-2017, 04:48 AM
Would agree with the James Connolly Society and others that what would be more valuable is commemoration of the famine in Scotland completely removed from the context of football and religion.

Its unfortunate that still it seems folk can only view this event through the toxic prism of football and sectarianism, when the suffering and behaviour of the British Empire should be reflected upon.

Scouse Hibee
28-09-2017, 05:54 AM
I feel uncomfortable with our club putting a poppy on their shirt once a year so this is a no from me!

Football and politics don't mix!

I feel uncomfortable with people seeing the poppy as a political symbol rather than the symbol of remembrance that it is.

theonlywayisup
28-09-2017, 06:24 AM
Why are topics like this being discussed on a football forum page?

Should admins not be stronger and any topic not related to football be punted to the Holy Ground or somewhere like that. This thread and the Armistice Day discussion have nothing to do with football. I've got my views on each subject, but I choose only to discuss football.

Mr White
28-09-2017, 07:02 AM
Why are topics like this being discussed on a football forum page?

Should admins not be stronger and any topic not related to football be punted to the Holy Ground or somewhere like that. This thread and the Armistice Day discussion have nothing to do with football. I've got my views on each subject, but I choose only to discuss football.

It's a fair point but they haven't been moved since this involves Saturday's match and the other thread you mention is primarily about the working together group. It's a difficult balance to get right as there have been quite a few threads recently that started off about something Hibs related or an incident from a matchday but have managed to blast off and ended up heading somewhere towards button moon :greengrin

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
28-09-2017, 07:21 AM
I feel uncomfortable with people seeing the poppy as a political symbol rather than the symbol of remembrance that it is.

Its definitely been turned into that imo. A cynical move that helped to take the heat of dead soldiers coming back from unpopular wars in iraq and Afghanistan - or at least thats when i noticed it becoming more political.

I dont wear one simply for that reason.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
28-09-2017, 07:23 AM
Why are topics like this being discussed on a football forum page?

Should admins not be stronger and any topic not related to football be punted to the Holy Ground or somewhere like that. This thread and the Armistice Day discussion have nothing to do with football. I've got my views on each subject, but I choose only to discuss football.

But it is to do with football - its about the strip that a football club chooses to wear. Its as much about as football as the hearts stand thread.

Football and politics do mix, they have always mixed and anybody with even the most basic understanding of the game and its history will know that is the case.

theonlywayisup
28-09-2017, 08:00 AM
Its definitely been turned into that imo. A cynical move that helped to take the heat of dead soldiers coming back from unpopular wars in iraq and Afghanistan - or at least thats when i noticed it becoming more political.

I dont wear one simply for that reason.

WTF does the above have to do with football. Please admins, does us a favour and move this to the holy ground.

I want to come on hear and read about football, not someones views on the poppy or famines that happened years ago.

I'm sure the vast majority of readers would agree.

JimBHibees
28-09-2017, 08:09 AM
It really is.

My comments are somewhat coloured by my total and utter disdain for both of the ugly sisters and their historic destruction of the Scottish game over decades of tolerating and profiting from the most disgusting sectarianism. I have tremendous respect for the achievements of all those Scottish clubs which managed to achieve success with only local geographical support. Anything achieved by those pulling from a Scotland wide division is tainted as far as I'm concerned.

So when the question is posed by a Celtc supporter on an Hibernian message board as to whether we will be commemorating the Irish famine on National Famine Memorial day I see the question and the answer almost entirely through the prism of what the illegitimate dominance of the ugly sisters has done to the Scottish game and to our club. I see a loaded question and a perspective which looks at our club from the wrong premise altogether.

I'd no more expect the club to commemorate the Irish famine today because of our Irish origins 140 years ago than I would expect the club to decide that we should celebrate every Catholic feast day today because of the Catholic faith of the Irish ancestors who founded the club. I say that as a Catholic.

We are secure in who we are, where we came from and how we got here. We don't need to plastic ourselves up in any way - because our culture and identity is firmly Leith, Edinburgh, Scotland. We sing Sunshine on Leith, not the Fields of Athenry. We were first to wear the green and we wear it with pride in our club here, now.

We're not Celtc's cousins. We're not like Celtc. I feel no more affinity with Celtc than I do with Stirling Albion. What Celtc choose to do is a matter for them.

So, with respect, no.

Superb post. :not worth

Beefster
28-09-2017, 11:26 AM
WTF does the above have to do with football. Please admins, does us a favour and move this to the holy ground.

I want to come on hear and read about football, not someones views on the poppy or famines that happened years ago.

I'm sure the vast majority of readers would agree.

It always pains me slightly when folk, who can't even be arsed contributing to keeping this site going, start making demands or speaking for its users.

JeMeSouviens
28-09-2017, 11:29 AM
It always pains me slightly when folk, who can't even be arsed contributing to keeping this site going, start making demands or speaking for its users.

I agree, and I'm sure I speak for everybody when I say, SORT IT OUT ADMINS! :aok:

MyJo
28-09-2017, 11:35 AM
It always pains me slightly when folk, who can't even be arsed contributing to keeping this site going, start making demands or speaking for its users.

Maybe the non-private members could elect some reps to represent them on the private-members board...................sorry, too soon :dunno:

pacoluna
28-09-2017, 11:40 AM
It always pains me slightly when folk, who can't even be arsed contributing to keeping this site going, start making demands or speaking for its users.

who says they can't be arsed?

pacoluna
28-09-2017, 11:44 AM
It always pains me slightly when folk, who can't even be arsed contributing to keeping this site going, start making demands or speaking for its users.
it's pains me even more when people who use this forum and seem to pretend to be in the know speak as if though this forum is a voice for the whole of hibernians supporters.

Beefster
28-09-2017, 11:44 AM
who says they can't be arsed?

Straw man alert.

Pretty Boy
28-09-2017, 11:47 AM
it's pains me even more when people who use this forum and seem to pretend to be in the know speak as if though this forum is a voice for the whole of hibernians supporters.

Who does that?

I'd say the very opposite is true. We have always been absolutely clear that hibs.net is a platform for debate and discussion and has no mandate to speak on behalf of the support.

Keith_M
28-09-2017, 11:51 AM
So, Michael, the answer to your question would appear to be No.



Time to move on?

marinello59
28-09-2017, 11:54 AM
So, Michael, the answer to your question would appear to be No.



Time to move on?

Thats not a bad idea.