Henry Dundas

[lord bunberry]

Someone was asking me today who the guy was on the column in St Andrews Square. I have to admit I didn't know who it was, I later googled it and found out who he was.
I must say I'm quite surprised that such a controversial figure has such a prominent place in our city.
After reading up on him, I wouldn't be against the idea of replacing him with someone more befitting of the honour. I realise I'm judging him on present day standards, but the fact the he is seen as the man who prolonged the slave trade for 20 years would be enough to at least ask the question.

[JeMeSouviens]

Is Dundas st named after him as well?

[Glory Lurker]

I think the fact that folk need to google who someone on a statue is, is reason enough to take them down. And George IV and Victoria.

[ColinNish]

I think the fact that folk need to google who someone on a statue is, is reason enough to take them down. And George IV and Victoria.

I think the fact that folk need to google who someone on a statue is, shows you just how much an over reaction this "tear the statues down" nonsense is.

[Peevemor]

He was a hugely influential man in his time and even had the clout to screw up the masterplan for the Edinburgh new town. St Andrew's & St George's church on George Street was originally meant to be built on St Andrew Square to mirror what became West Register House on Charlotte Square. That was until Henry Dundas decided he wanted to build his house there instead - Dundas House, registered office of RBoS.

[Colr]

I think the fact that folk need to google who someone on a statue is, shows you just how much an over reaction this "tear the statues down" nonsense is.

Much more cost effective to have a book burning!!

[lord bunberry]

I think the fact that folk need to google who someone on a statue is, shows you just how much an over reaction this "tear the statues down" nonsense is.
A discussion isn't an over reaction. Some of us can calmly discuss things without engaging the drama queen setting in our brain.:greengrin

[Smartie]

Tear him down, stick a statue of David Gray up there.

We all know it makes sense.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I think the fact that folk need to google who someone on a statue is, is reason enough to take them down. And George IV and Victoria.

You dont know who George 4 or Victoria were? Maybe youre just not that well educated... 😊

[lord bunberry]

Tear him down, stick a statue of David Gray up there.

We all know it makes sense.

Now you're talking

[Colr]

Now you're talking

That Scott's monument. He wrote Heart of Midlothian. It should be replaced with a giant harp.

[Just Alf]

These monuments are part of our rich history so should stay, what should happen though is some sort of plaque/exhibition nearby to show why he's got a monument but with the addition of all the negative bits as well, if people keep remembering history we'll hopefully not repeat those bad bits. :agree:

[Pete]

These monuments are part of our rich history so should stay, what should happen though is some sort of plaque/exhibition nearby to show why he's got a monument but with the addition of all the negative bits as well, if people keep remembering history we'll hopefully not repeat those bad bits. :agree:

Where do you draw the line though? Edinburgh, Glasgow and our country in general is filled with these Jekyll and Hyde's. So many great people, fantastic buildings and large institutions have dark sides that are steeped in the slave trade or the British empire.

I can't find it any more but there was an interactive map going about where the addresses of those involved in the slave trade lived. It gave details of what plantations they were involved in, how many people they had at their disposal and how much compensation they received. It was fascinating and quite chilling at the same time.

[calumhibee1]

tear him down, stick a statue of david gray up there.

We all know it makes sense.

yes.

[Hibrandenburg]

That Scott's monument. He wrote Heart of Midlothian. It should be replaced with a giant harp.

Let's get rid of that Sherlock Holmes druggy whilst we're at it. Glory hunting part-time hibby who only gets dressed up on the occasion when we actually win something.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Where do you draw the line though? Edinburgh, Glasgow and our country in general is filled with these Jekyll and Hyde's. So many great people, fantastic buildings and large institutions have dark sides that are steeped in the slave trade or the British empire.

I can't find it any more but there was an interactive map going about where the addresses of those involved in the slave trade lived. It gave details of what plantations they were involved in, how many people they had at their disposal and how much compensation they received. It was fascinating and quite chilling at the same time.

I think people need to be a bit careful about all of this. Norms, and laws, change ovsr time. Slavery was legal and at the time, seen by most as moral.

If we judge historical figures by todays norms, then barely any historical figures will be acceptable.

[danhibees1875]

I think people need to be a bit careful about all of this. Norms, and laws, change ovsr time. Slavery was legal and at the time, seen by most as moral.

If we judge historical figures by todays norms, then barely any historical figures will be acceptable.

It's a slight derail of this topic, but you raise a good point about the legal and moral slave trade at the time - I wonder what current social norm will be regarded as illegal and immoral in 50/100 years time?

[lapsedhibee]

It's a slight derail of this topic, but you raise a good point about the legal and moral slave trade at the time - I wonder what current social norm will be regarded as illegal and immoral in 50/100 years time?

Cheating at sports? :dunno:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's a slight derail of this topic, but you raise a good point about the legal and moral slave trade at the time - I wonder what current social norm will be regarded as illegal and immoral in 50/100 years time?

Yeah, its an interesting one - and i always think its a scary thought to put yourself in that time - would you have been ghe lone voice in the wilderness saying x thing was wrong?

I found watching that programmr on 2 recently about the gay guys during or just afyer the war a bit uncomfortable. That was my grandparents era, and that could have been (and in all likelihood would have been) them holding thosr horrible opinions and views - but i know they werent bad people.

We cant judge the past by 21st centrury, very liberal, very western values imo.

[Hibrandenburg]

It's a slight derail of this topic, but you raise a good point about the legal and moral slave trade at the time - I wonder what current social norm will be regarded as illegal and immoral in 50/100 years time?

It should be a lesson to us. Slavery, the persecution of Jews in Nazi Germany, apartheid, shooting Scotsmen inside York's city walls and beating your wife were all legal at some point in time. Legality doesn't mean something is right.

[Pete]

I wonder what current social norm will be regarded as illegal and immoral in 50/100 years time?

The way big business has been allowed to dominate every aspect of our lives (especially those from the west coast), they way we are considered primary as consumers, the 18th century working practices we have returned to, the rich landlords watching the poor struggle to live in the houses they own, the fact that people kill in the name of religion.

Christ, where do you begin? I'd like to think that so many symbols of this corporate planet we live in today will be considered as nothing more than monuments to greed, selfishness and inequality in the future. Lessons will hopefully be taught about how the people were fooled by tales of how "free" they are and how bad these other countries were for being undemocratic and "killing their own people".

saying that, we might all be underwater by then or the robots will have gotten us all!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It should be a lesson to us. Slavery, the persecution of Jews in Nazi Germany, apartheid, shooting Scotsmen inside York's city walls and beating your wife were all legal at some point in time. Legality doesn't mean something is right.

Surely thats the point though. At the time and in those societies they were morally right and laws reflected those societal norms.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The way big business has been allowed to dominate every aspect of our lives (especially those from the west coast), they way we are considered primary as consumers, the 18th century working practices we have returned to, the rich landlords watching the poor struggle to live in the houses they own, the fact that people kill in the name of religion.

Christ, where do you begin? I'd like to think that so many symbols of this corporate planet we live in today will be considered as nothing more than monuments to greed, selfishness and inequality in the future. Lessons will hopefully be taught about how the people were fooled by tales of how "free" they are and how bad these other countries were for being undemocratic and "killing their own people".

saying that, we might all be underwater by then or the robots will have gotten us all!

I disagree with a lot of what you say above, but i think your last point is a good one - in 100 years or so, humans will probably look back on environmental degradation and shake their heads in disbelief.

Diesel car emissions maybe? I wouldnt be surprised if some of fhe chemicals we use for cleaning, and also some processed food are looked back on with disbelief.

Maybe sugar will be like smoking in 50 years?

[Hibrandenburg]

Surely thats the point though. At the time and in those societies they were morally right and laws reflected those societal norms.

I'll take the two examples of the Nazis persecution of the Jews and slavery. There will have been a huge amount of the population at the time who knew it was wrong but either ignored it because they were afraid to stand up or convinced themselves that legal meant right. The same applies to today's injustices in that all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

[Hibrandenburg]

The way big business has been allowed to dominate every aspect of our lives (especially those from the west coast), they way we are considered primary as consumers, the 18th century working practices we have returned to, the rich landlords watching the poor struggle to live in the houses they own, the fact that people kill in the name of religion.

Christ, where do you begin? I'd like to think that so many symbols of this corporate planet we live in today will be considered as nothing more than monuments to greed, selfishness and inequality in the future. Lessons will hopefully be taught about how the people were fooled by tales of how "free" they are and how bad these other countries were for being undemocratic and "killing their own people".

saying that, we might all be underwater by then or the robots will have gotten us all!

Some good points.

[Pete]

I disagree with a lot of what you say above, but i think your last point is a good one - in 100 years or so, humans will probably look back on environmental degradation and shake their heads in disbelief.

Diesel car emissions maybe? I wouldnt be surprised if some of fhe chemicals we use for cleaning, and also some processed food are looked back on with disbelief.

Maybe sugar will be like smoking in 50 years?

You can probably add our treatment of animals into the equation too. Will the way we harvest them for our consumption, or even keep them as pets be looked upon unfavourably?

With a lot of these things, I think we know deep down that there might be something a bit wrong with them already, and it's almost as if we're letting future generations worry about the consequences.

In my opinion, there's one thing that's responsible for the present generation not tackling a lot of these things...the world we live in where we primarily value the accumulation of wealth and personal possessions and it's survival of the fittest. Unless that changes then nothing will be done until it's too late.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I'll take the two examples of the Nazis persecution of the Jews and slavery. There will have been a huge amount of the population at the time who knew it was wrong but either ignored it because they were afraid to stand up or convinced themselves that legal meant right. The same applies to today's injustices in that all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

Ill take your word for it about the gerries and the jews, although european history has a long and inglorious history of anti-semitism, including i believe Shakespeare.

But i doubt whether a buge amount of people in the 16 and 17 hundreds thought slavery was morally wrong.

This is all about hindsight. If germany had won the war, the holocaust may well now be seen now by us in muxh the same way as the Spanish reconquista is seen - an expulsion of an evil invader.

This is about retrospectively applying norms that are in themselves, transient.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You can probably add our treatment of animals into the equation too. Will the way we harvest them for our consumption, or even keep them as pets be looked upon unfavourably?

With a lot of these things, I think we know deep down that there might be something a bit wrong with them already, and it's almost as if we're letting future generations worry about the consequences.

In my opinion, there's one thing that's responsible for the present generation not tackling a lot of these things...the world we live in where we primarily value the accumulation of wealth and personal possessions and it's survival of the fittest. Unless that changes then nothing will be done until it's too late.

Yeah, animals is another good one - we all feel we habe the right to eat meat every day, amd have industrial farming and slaughter as a result.

[lord bunberry]

Yeah, animals is another good one - we all feel we habe the right to eat meat every day, amd have industrial farming and slaughter as a result.
But they're so tasty :greengrin. In all seriousness farming animals has gone on for centuries, I don't think that it will be one of the things that we look back at and see as unacceptable.

[Pete]

But they're so tasty :greengrin. In all seriousness farming animals has gone on for centuries, I don't think that it will be one of the things that we look back at and see as unacceptable.

The scale of it and the conditions the animals are kept in have gradually getting worse though. And let's be honest it's all about cash.

Also, who's to say that we won't develop the ability to communicate with animals? Fanciful but it is 100+ years we're talking about and as a result they might get more rights.

"Stop killing and eating us you ****s" 😂

[lord bunberry]

The scale of it and the conditions the animals are kept in have gradually getting worse though. And let's be honest it's all about cash.

Also, who's to say that we won't develop the ability to communicate with animals? Fanciful but it is 100+ years we're talking about and as a result they might get more rights.

"Stop killing and eating us you ****s" 😂
Maybe they will evolve to be less delicious :greengrin. Conditions that animals are kept in may well be something that's looked back on as a unacceptable. As for communication with animals we already have limited communication in the form of hearts tv.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

But they're so tasty :greengrin. In all seriousness farming animals has gone on for centuries, I don't think that it will be one of the things that we look back at and see as unacceptable.

Yeah fair point, but i was more thinking of the methods used to supply lots of cheap meat. I think meat was more of a rarity / treat in old days

[lord bunberry]

Yeah fair point, but i was more thinking of the methods used to supply lots of cheap meat. I think meat was more of a rarity / treat in old days
Agree, and as Pete says it's probably more to do with conditions they're kept in.

[Pete]

As for communication with animals we already have limited communication in the form of hearts tv.

🤣

[danhibees1875]

Yeah, its an interesting one - and i always think its a scary thought to put yourself in that time - would you have been ghe lone voice in the wilderness saying x thing was wrong?

I found watching that programmr on 2 recently about the gay guys during or just afyer the war a bit uncomfortable. That was my grandparents era, and that could have been (and in all likelihood would have been) them holding thosr horrible opinions and views - but i know they werent bad people.

We cant judge the past by 21st centrury, very liberal, very western values imo.

I think it would be pretty arrogant of me to suggest that I would have been the one to stick my hand up and say that slavery was wrong. It's the reason I think things we're doing now, which I either partake in or accept, will eventually be seen in a very different light.

Some good examples have been brought up about animals and meat. I like to think homelessness/poverty/starvation is something we can look back on soon as being a shocking time for humanity.

The example of sugar being regarded in the same way as cigarettes is a good one too!

[Peevemor]

Packaging is mental and will have to be cut down, particularly plastic. The harm we're doing to the oceans will also have to be stemmed. There's all sorts of ecological craziness going on.

[RyeSloan]

Packaging is mental and will have to be cut down, particularly plastic. The harm we're doing to the oceans will also have to be stemmed. There's all sorts of ecological craziness going on.

This is something I have noticed more and more recently.

There has been increasing awareness of the impacts of plastic and the politicos have introduced the bag tax but to me at least that seems like a finger in the dyke.

The amount of plastic that comes back in the 'bag for life' is just silly...it's almost impossible now to buy anything in a supermarket that doesn't seem to have been packed to last a lifetime sealed into plastic wrapping. I'm now actually taking a wee bit of a stand and if I think something is excessively wrapped I won't buy it.

Despite that I'm convinced the amount of plastic that goes into my recycling is still increasing. Then there is stuff like polystyrene which can't be recycled...I was in a rush the other day so grabbed the prepacked apples, which I normally avoid for the reasons above, only to find that the tray in the pack was polystyrene, all wrapped in a plastic bag. For 4 bloomin' apples! Repeat that across every supermarket in the land and the 5p bag tax looks pathetic.

I'm not one to often advocate government intervention but it seems to me that packaging in particular is not reflecting its true economic cost and the food producers and purveyors are benefitting from environmental damage on an epic scale and something radical needs to happen to change that dynamic.

Anyway a bit off the OP so with regards to that I'm very much against the seemingly growing habit of retrospective judgement on these types of things. I'm sure there are a few justified examples but generally it's not for me.

[Bishop Hibee]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/liberal-unable-to-mention-any-historical-figure-without-adding-that-they-were-racist-20170914135702

:greengrin

[beensaidbefore]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/liberal-unable-to-mention-any-historical-figure-without-adding-that-they-were-racist-20170914135702

:greengrin

I'm sure he's a regular on this board.