Brexit - this made a nice start to the day

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/aug/26/labour-calls-for-lengthy-transitional-period-post-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

I'll wait till the dust settles on this in case it's a false dawn, but I'm very encouraged.

The prospect of rejoining the Party actually entered my head when I read that.

:hmmm:

PS I did chuckle at Stammer's spin on Labour's position on Brexit to date.

"The time for constructive ambiguity is over". Oh aye, that's what it was. :hilarious

[Mr Grieves]

Has anyone told Corbyn?

[ronaldo7]

Has anyone told Corbyn?

He was in the links, and (ahem) "MOBBED".:greengrin

19267

[Mr Grieves]

He was in the links, and (ahem) "MOBBED".:greengrin

19267

There could be thousands hidden by those trees.

In all seriousness, it should be welcomed that Labour have finally decided their position on Brexit. Lets hope that all the opposition parties can work together to put pressure on the Tories.

[ronaldo7]

There could be thousands hidden by those trees.

In all seriousness, it should be welcomed that Labour have finally decided their position on Brexit. Lets hope that all the opposition parties can work together to put pressure on the Tories.

Agreed, it's just whether they'll stick to it.

[Bishop Hibee]

He was literally across the road from my flat but no one knew anything about it. Quite obvious this took place for those 'in the know'. I'd imagine Cllr Munro whose a decent bloke, good Hibby and politically aligned with Corbyn had a lot to do with this. Strange stunt.

[Hibbyradge]

Nothing with Labour is ever straightforward.

MPs voting to save their own skins instead of doing the right thing, who knew?


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/27/labour-jeremy-corbyn-brexit-policy-change?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

[danhibees1875]

How do labour seem to be struggling with this more than any other party?

Surely every party will have a stance on EU membership, and a split in their supporters of those who agree and those who don't?

It always seems to be Labour/Corbyn in the limelight on the issue though.

[hibsbollah]

Has anyone told Corbyn?

The leadership have played their hand perfectly. Say as little as possible for as long as possible and then call the single market membership position as an 'interim' measure, which will placate the brexit voters in Labour working class marginals who would otherwise be swayed to UKIP, or whatever new alt right manifestation we get over the next few years.

Those on the pro European left need to be patient and understand the tactics at work. Ironically, the original critique of Corbyn was that he was naive and didn't know the politics of compromise. Now hes playing realpolitik and he gets called out for it :faf:

I like Starmer too. A good mix of pragmatism and idealism.

[Hibbyradge]

The leadership have played their hand perfectly. Say as little as possible for as long as possible and then call the single market membership position as an 'interim' measure, which will placate the brexit voters in Labour working class marginals who would otherwise be swayed to UKIP, or whatever new alt right manifestation we get over the next few years.

Those on the pro European left need to be patient and understand the tactics at work. Ironically, the original critique of Corbyn was that he was naive and didn't know the politics of compromise. Now hes playing realpolitik and he gets called out for it :faf:

I like Starmer too. A good mix of pragmatism and idealism.

At the risk of opening old wounds, which I don't want to do, it's no surprise that people are sceptical about Corbyn's commitment to this new strategy, given that he was the only person in the UK who called for Article 50 to be triggered immediately on the morning after the referendum.

However, I'm much happier with the new proposals. I really hope they're accepted without a huge internal struggle.

I'm still hoping that Brexit won't happen, of course, and I think the chances of that are increasing all the time.

[ronaldo7]

The leadership have played their hand perfectly. Say as little as possible for as long as possible and then call the single market membership position as an 'interim' measure, which will placate the brexit voters in Labour working class marginals who would otherwise be swayed to UKIP, or whatever new alt right manifestation we get over the next few years.

Those on the pro European left need to be patient and understand the tactics at work. Ironically, the original critique of Corbyn was that he was naive and didn't know the politics of compromise. Now hes playing realpolitik and he gets called out for it :faf:

I like Starmer too. A good mix of pragmatism and idealism.

If they've finally got to their preferred position, why did they have to sack 3 front benchers in the process?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40451301

[hibsbollah]

If they've finally got to their preferred position, why did they have to sack 3 front benchers in the process?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40451301

Because they defied the whip. As previously discussed, Labour would have been crucified if they'd have tried to forcefully defy the referendum result in some key English constituencies. So they proceeded with caution saying as little as possible. Labour under Corbyn has been characterised by lax discipline, as rebels lined up to challenge him on issue after issue and he responded with this naive 'new kind of kinder politics /I don't do personal attacks' shtick. Ummuna has been agitating on the Blairite wing for ages, eventually the leadership realised the piss was being extracted and took them off the front bench. Which was long overdue.

The SNP, of course, are a much meaner political machine than Labour at Westminster and Holyrood and are whipped harder than a high court judge. You rarely hear any divergence from the official party line. That sort of unity is something Labour are miles away from.

[Tornadoes70]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-tries-win-hearts-11067904

I was delighted to hear Jeremy is catching up on and now referring to the extreme importance of remaining bound to the ECHR. It's vital we don't give up our right to hold the state to account if it violates our basic human rights. Hopefully more high profile folk will take notice of the threat of losing our right to appeal to a supra national international court of law.

[Colr]

The leadership have played their hand perfectly. Say as little as possible for as long as possible and then call the single market membership position as an 'interim' measure, which will placate the brexit voters in Labour working class marginals who would otherwise be swayed to UKIP, or whatever new alt right manifestation we get over the next few years.

Those on the pro European left need to be patient and understand the tactics at work. Ironically, the original critique of Corbyn was that he was naive and didn't know the politics of compromise. Now hes playing realpolitik and he gets called out for it :faf:

I like Starmer too. A good mix of pragmatism and idealism.

I think there's less danger to Labour from UKIP now that they've imploded and been taken over by facists.

[Colr]

At the risk of opening old wounds, which I don't want to do, it's no surprise that people are sceptical about Corbyn's commitment to this new strategy, given that he was the only person in the UK who called for Article 50 to be triggered immediately on the morning after the referendum.

However, I'm much happier with the new proposals. I really hope they're accepted without a huge internal struggle.

I'm still hoping that Brexit won't happen, of course, and I think the chances of that are increasing all the time.

There a good chance that when all these old ****s that voted brexit are gone in substantial enough numbers younger generations will take us back into the EU.

[Hibrandenburg]

There a good chance that when all these old ****s that voted brexit are gone in substantial enough numbers younger generations will take us back into the EU.

The post war generation grew up looking at Europe and especially the Germans as the root of all evil. It's difficult to reprogram what was fed into people as children, regardless of whether it's bull**** or not.

[Colr]

The post war generation grew up looking at Europe and especially the Germans as the root of all evil. It's difficult to reprogram what was fed into people as children, regardless of whether it's bull**** or not.

Unfortunately, due to our grandparents post-war coital excesses, there's too many of the blighters.

[beensaidbefore]

There a good chance that when all these old ****s that voted brexit are gone in substantial enough numbers younger generations will take us back into the EU.

Is there a breakdown somewhere that shows the ages/demographic who voted, and again who voted which way?

[lapsedhibee]

The post war generation grew up looking at Europe and especially the Germans as the root of all evil. It's difficult to reprogram what was fed into people as children, regardless of whether it's bull**** or not.

Nah, or not everyone anyway.

[hibsbollah]

Is there a breakdown somewhere that shows the ages/demographic who voted, and again who voted which way?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/here-s-what-would-have-happened-if-brexit-vote-was-weighted-by-age-a7120536.html

The stat to mention in a pub argument is 75% of under 25s voted Remain.

[beensaidbefore]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/here-s-what-would-have-happened-if-brexit-vote-was-weighted-by-age-a7120536.html

The stat to mention in a pub argument is 75% of under 25s voted Remain.

Thanks for that.

Quite an interesting article. A few leaps and bounds mind you, but if those lazy young pups had bothered their arse who knows where we would have been.

[hibsbollah]

Thanks for that.

Quite an interesting article. A few leaps and bounds mind you, but if those lazy young pups had bothered their arse who knows where we would have been.

Indeed. I liked this bit; 'The more our societies age, the more self-serving voting behaviour will translate into inter-generational warfare.'

[beensaidbefore]

Indeed. I liked this bit; 'The more our societies age, the more self-serving voting behaviour will translate into inter-generational warfare.'

It's quite frightening to think that could be the case. I'm the wrong side of 35, so I suppose now classed as middle aged. I wonder what the the oldies and young ones will do to us!😊

[Hibbyradge]

It's quite frightening to think that could be the case. I'm the wrong side of 35, so I suppose now classed as middle aged. I wonder what the the oldies and young ones will do to us!😊

Be afraid . . .

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Indeed. I liked this bit; 'The more our societies age, the more self-serving voting behaviour will translate into inter-generational warfare.'

Isnt all voting self-serving? Isnt that the whole point?

You cant blame people for voting for their interests, especially when the younger demographic habe often voluntary removed themselves from the process.

I really dont like this increasing stratification of society though - i dont see how it can end well.

[hibsbollah]

Isnt all voting self-serving? Isnt that the whole point?

.

Not always, and it absolutely isn't the point of it. Otherwise there wouldn't be any white people voting against the National Party in apartheid south africa, just as one example. Morals and ethics also come onto play.

[Hibrandenburg]

Not always, and it absolutely isn't the point of it. Otherwise there wouldn't be any white people voting against the National Party in apartheid south africa, just as one example. Morals and ethics also come onto play.

I'm beginning to understand as I get older that many have no or little moral or ethics when push comes to shove. I'm in the middle of a case at work where a large minority of the workforce is willing to screw over another large minority to save their own skin. Solidarity it would appear only goes so far.

[hibsbollah]

I'm beginning to understand as I get older that many have no or little moral or ethics when push comes to shove. I'm in the middle of a case at work where a large minority of the workforce is willing to screw over another large minority to save their own skin. Solidarity it would appear only goes so far.

I think there's always going to be examples either way of both the hope for, and the despair with, human nature. In general, philosophers say that when people are comfortable and have enough to eat they start being able to be moral. But in the link the writer is making the case that the more comfortabley off the old curmudgeonly Brexit voter becomes the more likely they are to say '**** you' to their own grandchildren. But that's the baby boomers for you, enjoyed the benefits of free love, free education, copious drugs and generous pensions and left everyone else ****ed :greengrin

[Colr]

I think there's always going to be examples either way of both the hope for, and the despair with, human nature. In general, philosophers say that when people are comfortable and have enough to eat they start being able to be moral. But in the link the writer is making the case that the more comfortabley off the old curmudgeonly Brexit voter becomes the more likely they are to say '**** you' to their own grandchildren. But that's the baby boomers for you, enjoyed the benefits of free love, free education, copious drugs and generous pensions and left everyone else ****ed :greengrin

You forgot that they are now wanting additional funds to cover their senile dementia.

[hibsbollah]

You forgot that they are now wanting additional funds to cover their senile dementia.

Eh? whats my name again Margaret?:flying: