Charlottesville

[lapsedhibee]

Good that The Trump has attempted to condemn white supremacists.

Not so good that he can't say supremacists.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40927089

[frazeHFC]

People allowed to openly walk around holding machine guns, crazy. Something like this car ramming could easily have sparked a shoot-out.

For anyone interested in the uprise of black/white power groups, the latest series of Ross Kemp Extreme World had a very interesting but shocking insight in to it. It's on Sky Demand.

[Future17]

The more I read about this, the more I find myself in the strange position of being increasingly uncomfortable about the actions of "the left" towards "the right" and the majority of media reporting about it.

In the USA, a country with the right to free speech written into its constitution, the lack of tolerance of opposing views is worrying to me. I can't help but think this lack of tolerance will only exacerbate the problem in the short, medium and long term.

[hibsbollah]

The more I read about this, the more I find myself in the strange position of being increasingly uncomfortable about the actions of "the left" towards "the right" and the majority of media reporting about it.



:dunno: I'm not sure what exactly it is that's made you come to this conclusion. Collection of right wing protestors, including tooled up militiamen with military hardware carry out sustained and brutal attacks against antifac demonstrators and students, culminating in an act of terrorism where one of the Nazis drives a car at a crowd in a campus town, killing a civil rights worker and injuring 19. The media reporting has continued the 'false objectivity' that there were two 'sides' to the 'dispute'. Im not sure what actions the 'left' took against the 'right' that youd want to see reported more fairly.

If anything, I think we're in danger of underplaying whats going on in stratified America. The POTUS has given the Klan and the neo Nazis a green light that the rest of the country and the rest of the Republican Party, even people who are on the extreme right of that party like Paul Ryan, just cant fathom. The descent into fascism has started and people need to wake up.

[Gatecrasher]

I'm quite into WW2, I find the whole period from the end of WW1 to the rise of Hitler and the oncoming demise of him and Nazi Germany really interesting. I find it sad that a country (US) that is/was so open about equality, free speech and respect has gone down a path where you have groups of people actively waving and marching in support of that awful regime. I know that groups like this have always existed and America has social issues regarding race but these people are protesting for the white America they used to know/want? How about they look at some WW2 footage and see what that America at the time was fighting for? listen to some of the speeches from their leaders at the time, some of them are really uplifting and could easily be used at the moment.

[NYHibby]

The more I read about this, the more I find myself in the strange position of being increasingly uncomfortable about the actions of "the left" towards "the right" and the majority of media reporting about it.

Despite generally not replying to comments about America on this site (as the former Republican activist here), since you seem genuine, I'll make a couple of comments.

1. Neo-Nazis and white supremacists aren't idiots. They know how to twist half truths into persuasive messages. They know who is disposed to those messages.

As these people are hearing messaging crafted to play off their circumstances and existing beliefs (non-racist view of being left behind, etc), that is why the job of reaching out to them is so difficult.

2. Freedom of speech has always been a qualified right in the US. The Constitution has never protected inciting violence against others.

I think that the outcry came only after the violence, and not before when the permission for the protest was granted, could be argue to show that there is a healthy balance for freedom of speech.

3. Vice's story from their reporter embedded with the protesters is worth watching.
https://youtu.be/P54sP0Nlngg

[hibsbollah]

That's an excellent report, thanks.

I mean, you just don't have any equivalent violent hateful nutjobs to that Daily Stormer guy on the progressive/liberal/left. You just don't. The more you see people like that you realise what you're dealing with. Pure evil.

[High-On-Hibs]

The more I read about this, the more I find myself in the strange position of being increasingly uncomfortable about the actions of "the left" towards "the right" and the majority of media reporting about it.

In the USA, a country with the right to free speech written into its constitution, the lack of tolerance of opposing views is worrying to me. I can't help but think this lack of tolerance will only exacerbate the problem in the short, medium and long term.

There is freedom of speech, just as their is freedom to do anything else. However, actions have consequences, whether good or bad. The problem with the far right is that they expect the freedom to say and do whatever they like, without other people having the freedom to challenge and fight against it.

[Future17]

:dunno: I'm not sure what exactly it is that's made you come to this conclusion. Collection of right wing protestors, including tooled up militiamen with military hardware carry out sustained and brutal attacks against antifac demonstrators and students, culminating in an act of terrorism where one of the Nazis drives a car at a crowd in a campus town, killing a civil rights worker and injuring 19. The media reporting has continued the 'false objectivity' that there were two 'sides' to the 'dispute'. Im not sure what actions the 'left' took against the 'right' that youd want to see reported more fairly.

I was referring to events in Charlottesville pre-escalation if you like. My understanding is that the origins of recent events can be traced to an initial plan to protest against the proposed removal of a statue a Confederate General. This drew a mixture of people with both moderate and extreme views. A counter-protest was planned, which also drew a mixture of people with moderate and extreme views. Somewhere a line wasn't crossed so much as hurdled, but this appears to have happened on both sides.

Having tried to read as many contemporaneous eyewitness accounts as possible, it certainly sounds like the "left" was as prepared and organised as the "right". Whilst the right was dressed and armed for a fight, so was the left. I haven't seen this reported as much in the mainstream media.


Despite generally not replying to comments about America on this site (as the former Republican activist here), since you seem genuine, I'll make a couple of comments.

1. Neo-Nazis and white supremacists aren't idiots. They know how to twist half truths into persuasive messages. They know who is disposed to those messages.

As these people are hearing messaging crafted to play off their circumstances and existing beliefs (non-racist view of being left behind, etc), that is why the job of reaching out to them is so difficult.

Thanks for replying. I agree with what you've said here and understand this to be the case from my (very limited) exposure to the subject. It's for that reasons that I'm fearful the current circumstances play right into the hands of the extreme right. If a person with legitimate concerns about the removal of the statue turned up to protest that issue, but has seen their concerns ignored and dismissed as "racist", "fascist" or "neo-Nazi", the potential exists for them to be driven further towards that kind of poisonous politics.


2. Freedom of speech has always been a qualified right in the US. The Constitution has never protected inciting violence against others.

I think that the outcry came only after the violence, and not before when the permission for the protest was granted, could be argue to show that there is a healthy balance for freedom of speech.

That could be true. I've seen other things though (such as the illegal destruction of a Confederate statue in North Carolina) which make me wonder.


3. Vice's story from their reporter embedded with the protesters is worth watching.
https://youtu.be/P54sP0Nlngg

I'll try and watch this in the next few days.

[Pretty Boy]

One thing that is striking is how little a lot of people seem to know about Robert E Lee. Given the Civil War is one of the key moments in US history the ignorance around one of it's key figures from Americans on both sides of the debate is interesting.

Obviously the whole issue has moved way beyond that now but I have a great interest in the Civil War and it's a debate that always catches my attention.

[NYHibby]

One thing that is striking is how little a lot of people seem to know about Robert E Lee. Given the Civil War is one of the key moments in US history the ignorance around one of it's key figures from Americans on both sides of the debate is interesting.


I'm not the best judge of what the average American knows (I have the equivalent of an advanced highers A in US history, minored in history, educated in the north, near a major battlefield), but I think the 50% percentile for people educated in the eastern half of the country know who Lee was and know a brief outline of his history (senior army officer who switched sides after his home state seceded, etc).

I think there are a couple reasons why more about Lee isn't known. First is that a lot of time is spent on the run up to the war and the reasons for it. The military history of the war itself, in terms of particular battles and troop movements, is covered at a high level. This makes sense as understanding the causes is more applicable in the 21st century than say knowing about Pickett's charge.

Lee wasn't involved in the debates over slavery or secession. While there are some interesting things about his views during Reconstruction, he was really only a military history figure and the education system focuses on social and political history figures.

Lee was also on the losing side and thus becomes more of a secondary figure. But that is a common phenomenon worldwide.

That being said, I think Lee is better know than he otherwise might be as a general. I think there was an effort at some point after the war to promote Lee's place in history. His conflicted nature made him more of an acceptable face for the south than many of his Confederate colleagues. This effort contributed to the 1910/20s rebirth of the KKK-era construction of confederate monuments, which links us back to this weekend.

There is also a regional aspect to the teaching of history. The war is taught differently in the south. I wouldn't be surprised if there is less focus on the war in the west than where I grew up. There tends to be a bit of an emphasis on more local history. We spent a disproportionate amount of time on our local battle for example.

[hibsbollah]

The statue/general lee/military history angle is interesting but it's a diversion. The white supremacists weren't interested in the statue per se, they were interested in using any pretext to start a race war. That's why they were chanting 'Blood and Soil' and 'No Jews Here', none of which had much to do with General Lees statue or the South's place in modern American society.

[Moulin Yarns]

SDL demo in Perth for a small mosque

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20799426_1360737697358952_6211544507624066732_n.jp g?oh=1695f8a86a4d580f7e6d84de01c6e513&oe=5A38D1BB

[frazeHFC]

SDL demo in Perth for a small mosque

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20799426_1360737697358952_6211544507624066732_n.jp g?oh=1695f8a86a4d580f7e6d84de01c6e513&oe=5A38D1BB

Good job it's not a day earlier as we have St J away on the 9th which could have led to bother.

[Speedy]

SDL demo in Perth for a small mosque

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20799426_1360737697358952_6211544507624066732_n.jp g?oh=1695f8a86a4d580f7e6d84de01c6e513&oe=5A38D1BB

I didn't realise Scottish Defence League was really a thing.

Quite funny that they've presented parking as one of their main issues.

[Pretty Boy]

I didn't realise Scottish Defence League was really a thing.

Quite funny that they've presented parking as one of their main issues.

I don't think it is really a thing. They get about a dozen people at their marches and are outnumbered about 10 to 1 by counter protesters.

[Pete]

SDL demo in Perth for a small mosque

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20799426_1360737697358952_6211544507624066732_n.jp g?oh=1695f8a86a4d580f7e6d84de01c6e513&oe=5A38D1BB

I'd like to know what you think a large Mosque looks like if you think an 600 capacity one is small. Mosques and Islamic centres in Edinburgh are in places where there isn't a lot of parking and I've seen some madness, especially around the Polwarth and Annandale Street area. They tend to park up at funny times too.

Definitely a genuine grievance that's been hijacked though. I'm not sure they would've been so proactive regarding parking had it not involved a Mosque. ��

[Pete]

Anyway, I'm sure your opinion on the statues will be linked to what you think the confederacy was all about. Was it mainly about slavery or was there more to it?

It's interesting to note that they were only erected in two periods. The first when the Jim Crow stuff was being introduced and the second when the civil rights movement was in full swing. I don't know enough about American culture to say if that merits them being pulled down but it gives them a sinistister aspect.

However, one thing that people don't like is being dictated to and being told that they're flawed and have to change, especially from outsiders. Why not have a referendum where only people living in the Southern states can decide what they want to do with these monuments?

After all, it's really got nothing to do with anyone else.

[Moulin Yarns]

I didn't realise Scottish Defence League was really a thing.

Quite funny that they've presented parking as one of their main issues.


I'd like to know what you think a large Mosque looks like if you think an 600 capacity one is small. Mosques and Islamic centres in Edinburgh are in places where there isn't a lot of parking and I've seen some madness, especially around the Polwarth and Annandale Street area. They tend to park up at funny times too.

Definitely a genuine grievance that's been hijacked though. I'm not sure they would've been so proactive regarding parking had it not involved a Mosque. ��

some facts about this mosque. It is a conversion of a builders office and yard, there are 2 rooms which will be used for prayer and worship, in total they measure 38m2, think 2 average living rooms. There will never be 600 people there, ever. Parking is horrendous in the area, not because there is going to be a mosque, but because it is close to the hospital where parking is already struggling. 11 parking spaces will be provided which don't exist at the moment so the builders who used to park on the road caused more congestion than the visitors to the mosque will.

[NYHibby]

However, one thing that people don't like is being dictated to and being told that they're flawed and have to change, especially from outsiders. Why not have a referendum where only people living in the Southern states can decide what they want to do with these monuments?


The decisions are made on a municipal basis by locally elected officials after public consultation. In many cases the process has been ongoing since 2015 when a white supremacist shot 9 black people during a church service. For the older monuments permission is sometimes needed from a state historical society.

Non-local people wanting them to stay up is more of a problem than non-local people wanting them to come down. For example, many of the high profile people at Charlottesville are from the north. Richard Spencer, the car murderer, the main guy in the Vice video, etc. David Duke is from a thousand miles away.

[Colr]

SDL demo in Perth for a small mosque

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20799426_1360737697358952_6211544507624066732_n.jp g?oh=1695f8a86a4d580f7e6d84de01c6e513&oe=5A38D1BB

600 is hardly a mega mosque!

[CropleyWasGod]

Anyway, I'm sure your opinion on the statues will be linked to what you think the confederacy was all about. Was it mainly about slavery or was there more to it?

It's interesting to note that they were only erected in two periods. The first when the Jim Crow stuff was being introduced and the second when the civil rights movement was in full swing. I don't know enough about American culture to say if that merits them being pulled down but it gives them a sinistister aspect.

However, one thing that people don't like is being dictated to and being told that they're flawed and have to change, especially from outsiders. Why not have a referendum where only people living in the Southern states can decide what they want to do with these monuments?

After all, it's really got nothing to do with anyone else.

That's what local elections are for, though. The people making the decisions have been elected by local people.

[lord bunberry]

I don't think it is really a thing. They get about a dozen people at their marches and are outnumbered about 10 to 1 by counter protesters.
They're also heavily outnumbered by police as well. I had the misfortune to have some of them in my taxi once and they are disgusting human beings.