£10,000 for 18 convictions

[Sergio sledge]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40883507

There seems to be a bit of controversy about Northubria Police's decision to pay £10,000 to a convicted child rapist for information on an investigation into a grooming gang. The investigation and information the informant provided led to the convictions of 18 members of the gang for offences such as sexual assault, rape, trafficking, and drugs charges. Some of the victims were as young as 14.

Do the ends justify the means in this case? The NSPCC don't seem to think so;


The NSPCC said that using him in this way was a decision that "crossed the line".
Jim Gamble, former head of the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre, said: "Personally, I can't envisage circumstances where I would have authorised payment to someone convicted of rape.
"I can't imagine how you could have control mechanisms in place with an informant of that type that you were going to task that would give reassurance that they still didn't represent a risk to young and vulnerable women."

I'm not sure where I stand on this, on the one hand you have the police giving a large amount of money to a convicted child rapist and, from the sounds of it, led to them going to some of the "parties" organised by the gang. Even if it was just to gather information, their attendance at these "parties" surely put them at risk of reoffending. On the other hand, 18 people were caught, charged and convicted and hopefully the gang is now broken up.

I think the ends do justify the means in this case, thankfully the many victims of this gang now have justice for the horrifying crimes they were victims of. The question is where do you draw the line? At what point is the line crossed? What are peoples thoughts on paying informants generally?

[hibsbollah]

I'm surprised the NSPCC made those comments. Convictions mean less offenses committed, surely?

[lord bunberry]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40883507

There seems to be a bit of controversy about Northubria Police's decision to pay £10,000 to a convicted child rapist for information on an investigation into a grooming gang. The investigation and information the informant provided led to the convictions of 18 members of the gang for offences such as sexual assault, rape, trafficking, and drugs charges. Some of the victims were as young as 14.

Do the ends justify the means in this case? The NSPCC don't seem to think so;



I'm not sure where I stand on this, on the one hand you have the police giving a large amount of money to a convicted child rapist and, from the sounds of it, led to them going to some of the "parties" organised by the gang. Even if it was just to gather information, their attendance at these "parties" surely put them at risk of reoffending. On the other hand, 18 people were caught, charged and convicted and hopefully the gang is now broken up.

I think the ends do justify the means in this case, thankfully the many victims of this gang now have justice for the horrifying crimes they were victims of. The question is where do you draw the line? At what point is the line crossed? What are peoples thoughts on paying informants generally?

Sometimes unpalatable things have to be done for the greater good.

[WeeRussell]

Tough one for me as well. Generally don't like the idea of paying monsters for information that any normal human being should be giving without batting an eyelid.

What does this say to other people who could be helping the police with information and have just seen some lowlife receive a huge payment for his...


But on the other hand - significant arrests made thanks to said information.


:confused:

[Geo_1875]

Tough one for me as well. Generally don't like the idea of paying monsters for information that any normal human being should be giving without batting an eyelid.

What does this say to other people who could be helping the police with information and have just seen some lowlife receive a huge payment for his...


But on the other hand - significant arrests made thanks to said information.


:confused:

But "any normal human being" wouldn't be in a position to supply that information.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Sometimes unpalatable things have to be done for the greater good.



this :agree: quite stomach churning one beast getting a pay off, but it led to another 18 beasts being convicted...result

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-40886658



A fear of being called racist is preventing authorities investigating the reasons behind child abuse cases, an MP has claimed.


agree with her 100% :agree:

[The_Exile]

Could've just beaten the information out of him for nowt.

[frazeHFC]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-40886658



A fear of being called racist is preventing authorities investigating the reasons behind child abuse cases, an MP has claimed.


agree with her 100% :agree:


Yeah I was discussing this with my mum last night. Was the same with the Rochdale case for a long time.

[hibsbollah]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-40886658



A fear of being called racist is preventing authorities investigating the reasons behind child abuse cases, an MP has claimed.


agree with her 100% :agree:

Race has absolutely nothing to do with this case. Unless we also think all people with big jingle jangle jewellery and shellsuits should be stigmatised as paedophiles because of Jimmy Saville. Or Catholics because of historical abuse at children's homes.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

this :agree: quite stomach churning one beast getting a pay off, but it led to another 18 beasts being convicted...result

Takes it down to the base level but, I agree.

[beensaidbefore]

Race has absolutely nothing to do with this case. Unless we also think all people with big jingle jangle jewellery and shellsuits should be stigmatised as paedophiles because of Jimmy Saville. Or Catholics because of historical abuse at children's homes.

Some of the alleged comments from the perpetrators seem to suggest that the race of the victims was a factor. White trash is one term I read.

On a more personal level, I remember a Pakistani guy at school who said his dad encouraged him to 'practice on white girls' and save the Pakistani girls for marrying. That I imagine is not an isolated case, and suggests that there could be a crappy attitude to white women in general.

[heretoday]

Some of the alleged comments from the perpetrators seem to suggest that the race of the victims was a factor. White trash is one term I read.

On a more personal level, I remember a Pakistani guy at school who said his dad encouraged him to 'practice on white girls' and save the Pakistani girls for marrying. That I imagine is not an isolated case, and suggests that there could be a crappy attitude to white women in general.
You're right. Denying that is just hiding from reality.

[hibsbollah]

Some of the alleged comments from the perpetrators seem to suggest that the race of the victims was a factor. White trash is one term I read.

On a more personal level, I remember a Pakistani guy at school who said his dad encouraged him to 'practice on white girls' and save the Pakistani girls for marrying. That I imagine is not an isolated case, and suggests that there could be a crappy attitude to white women in general.

OK, so the basis for your position is alleged racial epithets taken from the tabloid press and stuff someone said to you at school.

[beensaidbefore]

OK, so the basis for your position is alleged racial epithets taken from the tabloid press and stuff someone said to you at school.

I'm not sure I have a position on it, just pointing out some things.

The quote I read was in the metro this morning. I also read about the Rotherham case, where the police admitted they were worried about being seen to be racist. With that in mind I don't believe it would be out of the question for another police force to be similarly concerned.

[Sir David Gray]

I personally find this very hard to accept.

We aren't talking here about a petty criminal being given a bribe to grass up his mates who had been suspected of robbing a corner shop.

We're talking about someone who has been convicted of one of the most heinous crimes imaginable, the rape of a child. I do understand the point that his information has lead to the conviction of numerous other men but my thoughts are immediately with this man's young victim and their family. How will they all feel knowing that the man who has raped this young person and taken away their innocence and done all sorts of physical and psychological damage to them, has been paid a considerable amount of money by the police?

I can only imagine how that must have felt and the damage that would have done.

There surely must have been another way to secure the convictions of those other people.

[TheReg!]

We have to ask what makes these British Muslim men into misogynistic, racist perverts? The truth is, it's their ethnic heritage. Political correctness has let this happen.

[easty]

We have to ask what makes these British Muslim men into misogynistic, racist perverts? The truth is, it's their ethnic heritage. Political correctness has let this happen.

There's plenty perverts who aren't Muslim.

[TheReg!]

There's plenty perverts who aren't Muslim.

Of course there are, but it's said around 90% of grooming gangs are British Muslim and that's what this thread is partially about. Instead of whataboutary answers we should be asking the right questions without fear of being labelled due to political correctness.

[hibsbollah]

Of course there are, but it's said around 90% of grooming gangs are British Muslim and that's what this thread is partially about. Instead of whataboutary answers we should be asking the right questions without fear of being labelled due to political correctness.

It absolutely isn't what the OP was about. You're making things up. Your intention is fairly obvious. Nice post edit, by the way.

[TheReg!]

It absolutely isn't what the OP was about. You're making things up. Your intention is fairly obvious. Nice post edit, by the way.

Yet, the only time you interacted in this thread was whan race was mentioned. As soon as anyone mentions Muslims your back goes up, it's pathetic!

[hibsbollah]

Yet, the only time you interacted in this thread was whan race was mentioned. As soon as anyone mentions Muslims your back goes up, it's pathetic!

It's pathetic that you keep crying about this imaginary political correctness that stops you saying what you want. But the only 'political correctness' involved is that normal people can't discuss a crime from a non racial perspective without the islamophobes wading in.

[hibsbollah]

Yet, the only time you interacted in this thread was whan race was mentioned. As soon as anyone mentions Muslims your back goes up, it's pathetic!

And your first sentence is BS as well. I made the second post on this thread when we were still talking about the rights and wrongs of paying suspects for information. You're not doing very well are you?

[TheReg!]

And your first sentence is BS as well. I made the second post on this thread when we were still talking about the rights and wrongs of paying suspects for information. You're not doing very well are you?

Oh, I'm sorry, must have missed that one 🙄

One one post you say it's nothing to do with race, then you're calling me an Islamaphobe on another post for having an opinion, aye ok 👍🏻, it's far too easy for keyboard warriors to throw that word around isn't it!
Vast majority of Grooming gangs are British, Pakistani, Somali and Turkish Muslims, they're racially profiling young underage white girls to rape and sexually abuse, however me pointing that out makes me an Islamaphobe 😂
The thing is you never actually address any of these issues, you just skirt around with whataboutary then call out other posters who have genuine points as Islamaphobes etc etc, like i said kid, it's pathetic!

[hibsbollah]

Oh, I'm sorry, must have missed that one ��

One one post you say it's nothing to do with race, then you're calling me an Islamaphobe on another post for having an opinion, aye ok ����, it's far too easy for keyboard warriors to throw that word around isn't it!
Vast majority of Grooming gangs are British, Pakistani, Somali and Turkish Muslims, they're racially profiling young underage white girls to rape and sexually abuse, however me pointing that out makes me an Islamaphobe ��
The thing is you never actually address any of these issues, you just skirt around with whataboutary then call out other posters who have genuine points as Islamaphobes etc etc, like i said kid, it's pathetic!

Leaving aside your diversionary pish for a minute, Can I just quote you? You said 'It's their racial heritage that makes these men into mysoginistic racist ( :faf:) perverts'? I think that's an astonishing comment to make. That's what you said right? That means they are predisposed to being rapists because they are muslims?

[hibsbollah]

Oh, I'm sorry, must have missed that one ��

One one post you say it's nothing to do with race, then you're calling me an Islamaphobe on another post for having an opinion, aye ok ����, it's far too easy for keyboard warriors to throw that word around isn't it!
Vast majority of Grooming gangs are British, Pakistani, Somali and Turkish Muslims, they're racially profiling young underage white girls to rape and sexually abuse, however me pointing that out makes me an Islamaphobe ��
The thing is you never actually address any of these issues, you just skirt around with whataboutary then call out other posters who have genuine points as Islamaphobes etc etc, like i said kid, it's pathetic!

To answer your diversionary pish for a minute, there are indeed disgusting sex exploitation gangs in the UK that contain large numbers of black and Asian faces. I think it makes more sense to assume that they gather together like this not because there are more exploitative paedophiles that are Muslim, but because they are safer operating in neighbourhoods and communities that they know and can trust.

The 'white trash' quote from the Ramadhan foundation said 'there are a minority from among these criminal paedophiles who consider these girls as white trash and worthless.' So, surprise surprise, because there are racists everywhere, there are 'some' or a 'minority' of the sex ring who considered the race of the white girls as relevant. Not the group itself. And not the community at large.

So yes, there's evidence that predatory paedophiles are more likely to operate in groups if they are from the Asian community. But there is no evidence that the Asian community is home to any more predatory paedophiles than any other ethnic group.

Horrible horrific goings on and it really turns my stomach as a parent. Hundreds of victims who I hope get some support.

[TheReg!]

Leaving aside your diversionary pish for a minute, Can I just quote you? You said 'It's their racial heritage that makes these men into mysoginistic racist ( :faf:) perverts'? I think that's an astonishing comment to make. That's what you said right? That means they are predisposed to being rapists because they are muslims?

That's absolutely what I said fella!

Are they misogynistic? Yes!
Are they racist? Yes!
Are they perverts? Yes!
What's the common denominator, their ethnic heritage is steeped in treating their on women as being beneath them therefore they think it's fair game to trap, molest and sexually abuse young white girls.
Yet again you skirt around the issue, tell me why what I've said is wrong?

[WeeRussell]

But "any normal human being" wouldn't be in a position to supply that information.

Quite correct.. but that still doesn't solve the issues I have with it.

[TheReg!]

To answer your diversionary pish for a minute, there are indeed disgusting sex exploitation gangs in the UK that contain large numbers of black and Asian faces. I think it makes more sense to assume that they gather together like this not because there are more exploitative paedophiles that are Muslim, but because they are safer operating in neighbourhoods and communities that they know and can trust.

The 'white trash' quote from the Ramadhan foundation said 'there are a minority from among these criminal paedophiles who consider these girls as white trash and worthless.' So, surprise surprise, because there are racists everywhere, there are 'some' or a 'minority' of the sex ring who considered the race of the white girls as relevant. Not the group itself. And not the community at large.

So yes, there's evidence that predatory paedophiles are more likely to operate in groups if they are from the Asian community. But there is no evidence that the Asian community is home to any more predatory paedophiles than any other ethnic group.

Horrible horrific goings on and it really turns my stomach as a parent. Hundreds of victims who I hope get some support.

Ignore the last sentence in my last post, you've answered it in this post.

I

[Sergio sledge]

Of course there are, but it's said around 90% of grooming gangs are British Muslim and that's what this thread is partially about. Instead of whataboutary answers we should be asking the right questions without fear of being labelled due to political correctness.

Before I get dragged into this, my OP was about the rights and wrongs of paying informants for information, and in particular the rights and wrongs of paying a convicted rapist for information in this particular case.

It had nothing to do with the ethnicity of the perpetrators or the victims and wasn't meant to start any chat about that particular subject.

[Sergio sledge]

I'm surprised the NSPCC made those comments. Convictions mean less offenses committed, surely?

Yes, I was a bit surprised by their comments. In a perfect world we wouldn't have to pay criminals for information but sadly in situations like this it seems to have been the best way to secure convictions.

[hibsbollah]

Yes, I was a bit surprised by their comments. In a perfect world we wouldn't have to pay criminals for information but sadly in situations like this it seems to have been the best way to secure convictions.

Aye, the NSPCC obviously have to prioritise the victims, not catching the perpetrators, because that's their job. But I would have thought that less perpetrators mean less victims so they'd see the sense in using this informant.

[TheReg!]

Before I get dragged into this, my OP was about the rights and wrongs of paying informants for information, and in particular the rights and wrongs of paying a convicted rapist for information in this particular case.

It had nothing to do with the ethnicity of the perpetrators or the victims and wasn't meant to start any chat about that particular subject.

Fair enough mate, I got sidetracked by a BBC link on your OP.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm sure the informant will get what's coming to him. There's no way he'll be able to stay anonymous because someone will join the dots.

[silverhibee]

Aye, the NSPCC obviously have to prioritise the victims, not catching the perpetrators, because that's their job. But I would have thought that less perpetrators mean less victims so they'd see the sense in using this informant.

Was the informant paid £10,000 in a lump sum or was this what was paid to him over the course of the investigation for things like, petrol hotels, ie, expenses ?

[lord bunberry]

What concerns me about these cases is that it appears to be Muslim gangs targeting white girls. That suggests to me an attitude amongst these men that what they are doing is less serious than if they were targeting Muslim girls. Would the reaction of the Muslim community be the same if they were targeting Muslim girls? I'm pretty certain the public comments would remain pretty consistent, but I'm also pretty certain that these gangs would be treated differently among the Muslim community.
There seems to be an attitude amongst a small minorty of Muslim men that non Muslims are inferior to them. This isn't just confined to the opposite sex, and it's something that needs to be addressed.
Sex crimes are the same no matter what race they are committed against, but it's concerning to me that certain sections of the population feel that they are superior to others.