Is this the beginning of the end for diesel cars and other carbon fuelled vehicles?

[Hibrandenburg]

It looks like there will be a ban on diesel cars in Stuttgart with other German cities sure to follow. That together with the announcement from Mercedes that they will withdraw from Touring Car racing and will instead invest more in the Formula E.

https://www.google.com.cy/amp/amp.dw.com/en/diesel-car-ban-likely-in-stuttgart/a-39870235

[HappyAsHellas]

The rush for so called clean cars is certainly popular with politicians just now but without any details of how it will be achieved and at what cost. The estimated 400,000 charging points needed to be installed in Britain will cost somewhere around £30 billion, and that's before we look at the extra output from another half dozen nuclear power stations by 2050. Doesn't seem all that green to me as people are still going to be buying cars, which is the biggest problem to overcome.

[lord bunberry]

It looks like there will be a ban on diesel cars in Stuttgart with other German cities sure to follow. That together with the announcement from Mercedes that they will withdraw from Touring Car racing and will instead invest more in the Formula E.

https://www.google.com.cy/amp/amp.dw.com/en/diesel-car-ban-likely-in-stuttgart/a-39870235
I think it's really unfair on drivers who have bought diesel cars. For years we were told that diesel cars were better for the environment. A more phased introduction of something like this would be more appropriate. It seems that most cars will be electric in the near future and diesel cars will be a thing of the past.

[Pete]

2040 is the target over here which gives us time to adapt.

You wonder how the top end manufacturers will react. An electric Ferrari?

[lord bunberry]

2040 is the target over here which gives us time to adapt.

You wonder how the top end manufacturers will react. An electric Ferrari?
I think supercars will get an exemption. There's not enough of them on the road to make a difference. I think they will all have to go down the hybrid route, but that's already happening. The Porsche can do something around 50 miles on its electric motor which would be fine for driving in town.

[RyeSloan]

I think it's really unfair on drivers who have bought diesel cars. For years we were told that diesel cars were better for the environment. A more phased introduction of something like this would be more appropriate. It seems that most cars will be electric in the near future and diesel cars will be a thing of the past.

I take you point but anyone who believed that putting dirty fuel into a car then cleaning the emissions was actually BETTER than putting cleaner fuel into a car and still cleaning the emissions clearly lack the ability of objective thinking!

A better example of effective lobbying from the (European) car makers that had invested billions into Diesel engines we shall probably never see.

Anyway the government targets and ideas around this area are already way behind the real world. The change is already happening, the investment has been going on for years and years already and most major car manufacturers have pretty much already committed to full electric (with hybrids bridging the gap).

If they were really serious and wanted to promote quicker take up then they should force the oil companies to install plug in chargers in all forecourts. Instead they will probably throw public money at poor value incentive schemes and the like.

And they could finally do something about the power market in the U.K...which they have finally stated to do last week by removing the perverse disincentives that were cooked into the electricity market against storage. For a small window on what technology already exists there is a UK company called RedT that have developed a vanadium flow battery that you could easily see being used to store large amounts of renewables to be used for all manner of uses, not least charging commercial fleets of electric vans/trucks.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think it's really unfair on drivers who have bought diesel cars. For years we were told that diesel cars were better for the environment. A more phased introduction of something like this would be more appropriate. It seems that most cars will be electric in the near future and diesel cars will be a thing of the past.

It's a difficult one. My new diesel is ready to be picked up when I get back from holiday, it's concerning that it might soon be restricted where I can actually drive it. Add to that I've just ordered a caravan, what type of vehicle will I need to pull it around Europe in 10 years?

On the other hand I understand the Stuttgart decision, the city is in a bowl where all the fumes just hang in the air and it takes ages before they're dispersed. The people there are already having health issues due to the poisonous particles produced by diesel. I guess the decision is between health and practicality. I think for any government intending to look after its people it's an easy choice.

[Hibrandenburg]

The rush for so called clean cars is certainly popular with politicians just now but without any details of how it will be achieved and at what cost. The estimated 400,000 charging points needed to be installed in Britain will cost somewhere around £30 billion, and that's before we look at the extra output from another half dozen nuclear power stations by 2050. Doesn't seem all that green to me as people are still going to be buying cars, which is the biggest problem to overcome.

Germany would ideally like to take all it's nuclear reactors off line and are planning to do so. They're investing big in renewables, the question is will it be enough without major advances in E technology.

[BroxburnHibee]

I was listening to a radio discussion through the night and they had a Stanford university professor talking about the 2040 target. He said that the target wouldn't mean much as in his expert opinion we will ALL be driving electric cars by 2030. 13 years? I found that hard to believe.

He also said that car ownership will drop by 80% in that time as driverless technology kicks in.

Sounded a bit pie in the sky to me but you'd imagine he would know his stuff.

[The_Exile]

Germany would ideally like to take all it's nuclear reactors off line and are planning to do so. They're investing big in renewables, the question is will it be enough without major advances in E technology.


I think the advances in E technology are already advancing at a fantastic rate. It's the energy storage that is the issue, batteries etc and the like will need to catch up soon. This is where the next big leap is needed.

[lord bunberry]

I was listening to a radio discussion through the night and they had a Stanford university professor talking about the 2040 target. He said that the target wouldn't mean much as in his expert opinion we will ALL be driving electric cars by 2030. 13 years? I found that hard to believe.

He also said that car ownership will drop by 80% in that time as driverless technology kicks in.

Sounded a bit pie in the sky to me but you'd imagine he would know his stuff.
The switch to electric cars will almost certainly happen, but I can't see ownership dropping by 80%. I certainly don't ever want to have my car taken away and replaced with a shared driverless car.

[Colr]

It looks like there will be a ban on diesel cars in Stuttgart with other German cities sure to follow. That together with the announcement from Mercedes that they will withdraw from Touring Car racing and will instead invest more in the Formula E.

https://www.google.com.cy/amp/amp.dw.com/en/diesel-car-ban-likely-in-stuttgart/a-39870235

It's the way it's going. All the housing developments we're doing at the moment are being asked for charging points.

Given the fumes in central London, can't come soon enough!

[Colr]

I think the advances in E technology are already advancing at a fantastic rate. It's the energy storage that is the issue, batteries etc and the like will need to catch up soon. This is where the next big leap is needed.

You get pretty good range from a Tesla or VW golf now.

Hastle for me is charging points in the street. As the Council manage the public realm can't see anything moving very fast there. It'll take them to 2050 to approve a policy paper on the subject.

[Jack]

You get pretty good range from a Tesla or VW golf now.

Hastle for me is charging points in the street. As the Council manage the public realm can't see anything moving very fast there. It'll take them to 2050 to approve a policy paper on the subject.

Good point!

How will people in flats, multistories etc. charge their cars?

[lord bunberry]

Good point!

How will people in flats, multistories etc. charge their cars?
I believe the plan is to have charging points on lampposts . Maybe by the time this becomes reality there will be a charger that you can charge in your house before fitting to your car when needed.

[HappyAsHellas]

Much of the hype concerning diesel being the new bad guy in town is laughable. Daf test drove their new lorries (diesel) a few years ago in London and the fumes coming out the exhaust were cleaner than the air going into the intake system. Hybrid are about as green as a blast furnace, which goes for all cars, which is of course the problem. The aforementioned 80% drop in vehicle ownership will have to happen if we really want to reach the figures for clean air being touted about. Will the oil companies start r & d in renewable energy, or offer charging facilities instead of fuel? A long long way to go with this but I suppose we have to start somewhere and a statement of intent is the easiest thing to do.

[snooky]

By 2040 I'll be pushing up the daisies anyway.

I'd like to see a true analysis of where all the pollution in the world is coming from i.e cars/planes/lorries/rockets/factories/volcanos/cows (methane)/sewage & waste/etc. - the whole sheebang - and see where cars are on the graph.

[lord bunberry]

By 2040 I'll be pushing up the daisies anyway.

I'd like to see a true analysis of where all the pollution in the world is coming from i.e cars/planes/lorries/rockets/factories/volcanos/cows (methane)/sewage & waste/etc. - the whole sheebang - and see where cars are on the graph.
I'd like to see that now before we're all pushing up daisies. The issue has become so policalised that none of us really know the full facts. Everything is just forced upon us as a general threat. It's not helpful in any way.

[Colr]

Much of the hype concerning diesel being the new bad guy in town is laughable. Daf test drove their new lorries (diesel) a few years ago in London and the fumes coming out the exhaust were cleaner than the air going into the intake system. Hybrid are about as green as a blast furnace, which goes for all cars, which is of course the problem. The aforementioned 80% drop in vehicle ownership will have to happen if we really want to reach the figures for clean air being touted about. Will the oil companies start r & d in renewable energy, or offer charging facilities instead of fuel? A long long way to go with this but I suppose we have to start somewhere and a statement of intent is the easiest thing to do.

What'll happen to the demand for petrol. Aberdeen will have to go back to sheep farming!

[snooky]

What'll happen to the demand for petrol. Aberdeen will have to go back to sheep farming!

I'm kinda worried about the Larry Hagman Fan Club too.
It might just be a dream though.

[Pete]

The switch to electric cars will almost certainly happen, but I can't see ownership dropping by 80%. I certainly don't ever want to have my car taken away and replaced with a shared driverless car.

I can't see ownership dropping by 80% either, even in the home of the big-business dominated, free market society that is the US. However, getting rid of pesky overheads like paying drivers would be a lot of people's ultimate goal, regardless of the consequences. The Indian government have taken a stand though, using the simple logic that driverless technology will lead to unemployment...which they have enough of already.

There's also the fact that people like driving. Something that is almost always forgotten in this rush (by the billion dollar companies and their investors) to embrace this technology.

[Jack]

Is pollution maybe just a cover for there's not really that much oil left at the rate we're using it? What we have left needs to be preserved for stuff that there's no real alternative to oil based products, like aircraft.

As has been hinted at earlier road vehicles probably don't account for a lot of pollution in comparison with many heavily industrialised countries that don't give a monkeys, USA, China, Russia, India etc. about it. And if course there's natural pollution that can even out so that!

[RyeSloan]

Is pollution maybe just a cover for there's not really that much oil left at the rate we're using it? What we have left needs to be preserved for stuff that there's no real alternative to oil based products, like aircraft.

As has been hinted at earlier road vehicles probably don't account for a lot of pollution in comparison with many heavily industrialised countries that don't give a monkeys, USA, China, Russia, India etc. about it. And if course there's natural pollution that can even out so that!

I think we can safely say that the concept of running out of oil just isn't a reality...the world has plenty of oil. In fact the concern for big oil is starting to be the fact that technology changes may leave them with stranded assets rather than ever growing demand for an ever depleting resource.

Pollution rather than oil use is two different questions. Depending on what stats you read about half to 60% of the worlds oil goes towards transportation so it's easy to see that electrification of said transportation would have a dramatic effect on the worlds oil demand.

Pollution comes in many forms, not just the burning of oil in it's many guises but the recent maritime accords on the use of bunker oil shows that radical steps can be taken even in a divided world.

I think though the main thrust here is air pollution in cities. There is no doubting that transportation is responsible for a large part of that so electric cars (but probably more importantly buses, vans and trucks) will have a huge positive impact. This is developing at a significant pace...we all know about Tesla and the likes but there is many many other developments being worked on. This link is just one example: https://www.daimler.com/products/trucks/mercedes-benz/urban-etruck.html


As for aircraft always needing oil based fuels...well I wouldn't bet on that either. There is already vast R&D going into all manner of batteries that will ultimately feed into aviation as well as the development in the aviation industry itself, again just one example would be Airbus E-aircraft technology.

[snooky]

Back in the sixties there were loads of stories about discoveries of alternatives to petrol. The oil companies allegedly bought them out to protect their product. I'm surprised there hasn't been any rumblings from them regarding this big push to E-power.
I also wonder what is going to produce all this new E-power. Diesel turbines? :wink:

[Andy74]

I was at the BP AGM earlier in the year and the discussion on this was interesting.

Electric cars still need fuel to produce the electricity so BP will be focusing more on their production than the end use in garages. They are also switching from mainly oil to mainly gas which they believe to be 'greener' to produce.

They fully expected non electric cars not to be sold anymore over the next 10 to 15 years.

I've been tempted by Tesla but probably not this time, will wait until the network is in place.

I'm certainly not put off diesel yet though. I'm petrol just now but will just depend on what engines my next choice has to offer!

[Jack]

I think we can safely say that the concept of running out of oil just isn't a reality...the world has plenty of oil. In fact the concern for big oil is starting to be the fact that technology changes may leave them with stranded assets rather than ever growing demand for an ever depleting resource.

Pollution rather than oil use is two different questions. Depending on what stats you read about half to 60% of the worlds oil goes towards transportation so it's easy to see that electrification of said transportation would have a dramatic effect on the worlds oil demand.

Pollution comes in many forms, not just the burning of oil in it's many guises but the recent maritime accords on the use of bunker oil shows that radical steps can be taken even in a divided world.

I think though the main thrust here is air pollution in cities. There is no doubting that transportation is responsible for a large part of that so electric cars (but probably more importantly buses, vans and trucks) will have a huge positive impact. This is developing at a significant pace...we all know about Tesla and the likes but there is many many other developments being worked on. This link is just one example: https://www.daimler.com/products/trucks/mercedes-benz/urban-etruck.html


As for aircraft always needing oil based fuels...well I wouldn't bet on that either. There is already vast R&D going into all manner of batteries that will ultimately feed into aviation as well as the development in the aviation industry itself, again just one example would be Airbus E-aircraft technology.

Thanks.

[snooky]

I was at the BP AGM earlier in the year and the discussion on this was interesting.

Electric cars still need fuel to produce the electricity so BP will be focusing more on their production than the end use in garages. They are also switching from mainly oil to mainly gas which they believe to be 'greener' to produce.

They fully expected non electric cars not to be sold anymore over the next 10 to 15 years.

I've been tempted by Tesla but probably not this time, will wait until the network is in place.

I'm certainly not put off diesel yet though. I'm petrol just now but will just depend on what engines my next choice has to offer!

Interesting.
Thanks, Andy

BTW, will the AA still come out and get you going if you have a flat battery? They will all be flat shaped by then.
Okay, I'm getting silly now. :dead:

[Colr]

I think we can safely say that the concept of running out of oil just isn't a reality...the world has plenty of oil. In fact the concern for big oil is starting to be the fact that technology changes may leave them with stranded assets rather than ever growing demand for an ever depleting resource.

Pollution rather than oil use is two different questions. Depending on what stats you read about half to 60% of the worlds oil goes towards transportation so it's easy to see that electrification of said transportation would have a dramatic effect on the worlds oil demand.

Pollution comes in many forms, not just the burning of oil in it's many guises but the recent maritime accords on the use of bunker oil shows that radical steps can be taken even in a divided world.

I think though the main thrust here is air pollution in cities. There is no doubting that transportation is responsible for a large part of that so electric cars (but probably more importantly buses, vans and trucks) will have a huge positive impact. This is developing at a significant pace...we all know about Tesla and the likes but there is many many other developments being worked on. This link is just one example: https://www.daimler.com/products/trucks/mercedes-benz/urban-etruck.html


As for aircraft always needing oil based fuels...well I wouldn't bet on that either. There is already vast R&D going into all manner of batteries that will ultimately feed into aviation as well as the development in the aviation industry itself, again just one example would be Airbus E-aircraft technology.

Not being dependent on nutters like the Russians and Saudis is a good enough motivation to switch away from oil.

[Moulin Yarns]

I see tesla are producing an affordable everyday electric car. Aye £26650 worth of affordable!!!!

[Hibrandenburg]

I see tesla are producing an affordable everyday electric car. Aye £26650 worth of affordable!!!!

That's ok if you consider you're not dependent on the oil oligarchs.

[Andy74]

I see tesla are producing an affordable everyday electric car. Aye £26650 worth of affordable!!!!

That's pretty average or less than average in the UK for a new car.

It's meant to go against the likes of the BMW 3 series so the price is fine. You can forget about petrol costs too which is pretty significant.

It also gets you to 60 mph in less than 6 seconds. Not sure what in the price range does that.

[Scouse Hibee]

That's pretty average or less than average in the UK for a new car.

It's meant to go against the likes of the BMW 3 series so the price is fine. You can forget about petrol costs too which is pretty significant.

It also gets you to 60 mph in less than 6 seconds. Not sure what in the price range does that.

Yes, the average price is just under £29k for a new car in UK.

[BroxburnHibee]

Oil companies will turn their attention to energy production.

[RyeSloan]

That's pretty average or less than average in the UK for a new car.

It's meant to go against the likes of the BMW 3 series so the price is fine. You can forget about petrol costs too which is pretty significant.

It also gets you to 60 mph in less than 6 seconds. Not sure what in the price range does that.

The base model does 5.9sec...the more expensive one 5.1 sec.

The equiv mpg is 100 miles per gallon!

The additional costs are more associated with their autonomous driving package and the extra range but even the base model does over 200 miles on a single charge...the bigger battery does 310!

It's not the first and it certainly won't be the last but the model 3 will surely go down in history as the turning point of when electric cars became 'affordable' and desirable.

[RyeSloan]

The base model does 5.9sec...the more expensive one 5.1 sec.

The equiv mpg is 100 miles per gallon!

The additional costs are more associated with their autonomous driving package and the extra range but even the base model does over 200 miles on a single charge...the bigger battery does 310!

It's not the first and it certainly won't be the last but the model 3 will surely go down in history as the turning point of when electric cars became 'affordable' and desirable.

Oh and it comes with an 8 year 100,000 mile warranty!

[Moulin Yarns]

Yes, the average price is just under £29k for a new car in UK.

The 3 most popular cars by sales in the UK are VW Golf, Ford Fiesta and Ford Focus, none of which are £29k. Most people don't spend £26k on a new car, which is my point about the Tesla still not being mainstream.

[HappyAsHellas]

There is no doubting the advances made recently in the design and manufacture of electric vehicles. I remember back in the 70's working on an electric car which had 48 normal car batteries, a top speed of about 15 mph and was constantly on charge and only had one seat. The underlying problem is still that to manufacture each car leaves a carbon footprint of around 22 metric tonnes, and that's before you even drive the thing. What fuel source is all this extra requirement going to use? Be it nuclear, gas, coal whatever, we have to address the fact that there are simply too many vehicles on the go and something drastic, or perhaps brilliant needs to be done.

[Andy74]

The 3 most popular cars by sales in the UK are VW Golf, Ford Fiesta and Ford Focus, none of which are £29k. Most people don't spend £26k on a new car, which is my point about the Tesla still not being mainstream.

To get an average of £29k then of course people must pay that.

The top 3 on the list may come under that, for most of their models, however, within the top 10 there are still plenty cars that will cost more than that - it is firmly within the mainstream on pricing.

When considering a monthly cost it becomes even more affordable.

I know when looking at the Model S I was able to chuck it in with cars that on the face of it were a bit lower but would have cost me more in total. Don't think I will go for it this time as the network isn't quite there yet.

[Sergio sledge]

There is no doubting the advances made recently in the design and manufacture of electric vehicles. I remember back in the 70's working on an electric car which had 48 normal car batteries, a top speed of about 15 mph and was constantly on charge and only had one seat. The underlying problem is still that to manufacture each car leaves a carbon footprint of around 22 metric tonnes, and that's before you even drive the thing. What fuel source is all this extra requirement going to use? Be it nuclear, gas, coal whatever, we have to address the fact that there are simply too many vehicles on the go and something drastic, or perhaps brilliant needs to be done.

Local generation with battery storage is going to become a requirement for all new developments (generation already is pretty much essential on new-build houses), this should be able to provide for some of the needs of electric cars, but nowhere near enough I'd imagine.

You are correct about the number of vehicles around, I live on a street with 2, 3 and 4 bedroom houses and almost all of them have at least two cars outside them. a fair number have three or four cars outside them.

I love Tesla's, we lease our (only) car and when the model 3 comes out over here I'm definitely going to crunch some numbers on the lease cost. The majority of our driving is short range city driving with the occasional trip to the borders about as far as we go, so the base model would do us range wise. I reckon we would save approximately £1,500 - £1,800 per year on fuel costs so if the lease cost is less than £100 per month more than a Golf or similar then that would pay for itself.

We're also building a house in the next year, so (as long as budget allows) I'm planning on getting some battery storage and solar panels put in which should make it an even better proposition.

[RyeSloan]

Local generation with battery storage is going to become a requirement for all new developments (generation already is pretty much essential on new-build houses), this should be able to provide for some of the needs of electric cars, but nowhere near enough I'd imagine.

You are correct about the number of vehicles around, I live on a street with 2, 3 and 4 bedroom houses and almost all of them have at least two cars outside them. a fair number have three or four cars outside them.

I love Tesla's, we lease our (only) car and when the model 3 comes out over here I'm definitely going to crunch some numbers on the lease cost. The majority of our driving is short range city driving with the occasional trip to the borders about as far as we go, so the base model would do us range wise. I reckon we would save approximately £1,500 - £1,800 per year on fuel costs so if the lease cost is less than £100 per month more than a Golf or similar then that would pay for itself.

We're also building a house in the next year, so (as long as budget allows) I'm planning on getting some battery storage and solar panels put in which should make it an even better proposition.

Tesla are suggesting that even if they hit their ambitious production target the Model 3 is already reserved to those who placed deposits until near end 2018.

There can surely never have been a car that has had such a demand prior to launch!

And you are spot on re the local generation theme...Tesla of course have the solar tiles to power wall to car concept and is already selling that in the US. Sure it will take time to go mainstream but the technology is there it's all now a matter of adoption rates.

As for commercial scale then this is just a taste of what is going on https://networks.online/gphsn/news/1000108/eon-test-storage-potential-commercial-customers

There really is massive development across the power production and storage areas which allied to massive investment in electric and autonomous vehicles the world really will be a different place in the coming decades.

The internal combustion engine is not dead (Thermal efficiency rates are still climbing and in some car engines are now twice what they were 20 years ago) but it's surely now at a tipping point where electric will start to get a bigger and bigger market share.

[lord bunberry]

I remember seeing a programme about hydrogen powered cars. This seems to me to be the perfect solution to the problem of replacing petrol fulled cars. I don't know if the technology is still being developed or if they've given up on the idea.

[RyeSloan]

I remember seeing a programme about hydrogen powered cars. This seems to me to be the perfect solution to the problem of replacing petrol fulled cars. I don't know if the technology is still being developed or if they've given up on the idea.

I think Toyota are still pursuing this approach but if so I believe they are the only major car company doing so.

There are many drawbacks to using hydrogen so I very very much doubt we will ever see hydrogen powered cars as the norm.

[Sergio sledge]

I remember seeing a programme about hydrogen powered cars. This seems to me to be the perfect solution to the problem of replacing petrol fulled cars. I don't know if the technology is still being developed or if they've given up on the idea.

It is still being developed but is generally still pretty expensive to produce (despite its abundance) compared to fossil fuels or even renewable electricity. You can either use electricity to generate hydrogen from water, or use a process to separate hydrogen from methane, however both these methods are expensive and the second method releases CO2 into the atmosphere.

Once produced, the hydrogen could be stored in tanks like a fuel stations forecourts and pumped into cars. It could them be burned or used to produce electricity to drive an electric motor with the only products of the process being water and oxygen.

However, Hydrogen is difficult to store, being a volatile gas it needs to be stored at liquid form under pressure. It also is expensive as mentioned earlier.

As an electricity storage method, it is less efficient than batteries in terms of storage but cleaner. In cars, it would offer the benefit of being able to refill quicker than charging is currently.

[lord bunberry]

It is still being developed but is generally still pretty expensive to produce (despite its abundance) compared to fossil fuels or even renewable electricity. You can either use electricity to generate hydrogen from water, or use a process to separate hydrogen from methane, however both these methods are expensive and the second method releases CO2 into the atmosphere.

Once produced, the hydrogen could be stored in tanks like a fuel stations forecourts and pumped into cars. It could them be burned or used to produce electricity to drive an electric motor with the only products of the process being water and oxygen.

However, Hydrogen is difficult to store, being a volatile gas it needs to be stored at liquid form under pressure. It also is expensive as mentioned earlier.

As an electricity storage method, it is less efficient than batteries in terms of storage but cleaner. In cars, it would offer the benefit of being able to refill quicker than charging is currently.
If those problems could be overcome it would be the ideal fuel for the future. Electric cars are obviously limited by the fact that they have to be charged and the majority of the people who own cars don't live in a house that is suitable for charging their car overnight. There is going to have to be a massive investment in infrastructure to pull this off by the time electric cars are being mass produced.
I don't buy that ownership will drop by anywhere near the amount people seem to think when driverless cars hit the roads.

[Haymaker]

There's plenty of them round my way (it is a very wealthy area though), even a dealership, and almost everyone I know here is thinking about a tesla in the next 3-5 years when their current cars need upgrading/leases end.

Its a start although they are bloody eerie zooming by you with no sound.

[Bishop Hibee]

Ill be keeping my old banger on the road for as long as possible before I'm forced to take it off. Hopefully the second hand electric car market will make these sorts of vehicles affordable to those of us on an average UK income.

An 80% reduction in any sort of car seems very unlikely. People will want the privacy of their own vehicle as they do now.

[Colr]

Oh and it comes with an 8 year 100,000 mile warranty!

There was a scheme to buy them on salary sacrifice, I think. Doubt it would survive any level of popularity!!

[Colr]

Tesla are suggesting that even if they hit their ambitious production target the Model 3 is already reserved to those who placed deposits until near end 2018.

There can surely never have been a car that has had such a demand prior to launch!

And you are spot on re the local generation theme...Tesla of course have the solar tiles to power wall to car concept and is already selling that in the US. Sure it will take time to go mainstream but the technology is there it's all now a matter of adoption rates.

As for commercial scale then this is just a taste of what is going on https://networks.online/gphsn/news/1000108/eon-test-storage-potential-commercial-customers

There really is massive development across the power production and storage areas which allied to massive investment in electric and autonomous vehicles the world really will be a different place in the coming decades.

The internal combustion engine is not dead (Thermal efficiency rates are still climbing and in some car engines are now twice what they were 20 years ago) but it's surely now at a tipping point where electric will start to get a bigger and bigger market share.
I quite tile the solar tiles that look like slates. Most PV retrofits look utterly **** but they should look OK and may vene be acceptable in conservation areas like where I live. Edinburgh planners may be a bit more fussy, though!

[Scouse Hibee]

The 3 most popular cars by sales in the UK are VW Golf, Ford Fiesta and Ford Focus, none of which are £29k. Most people don't spend £26k on a new car, which is my point about the Tesla still not being mainstream.

The average price paid is still just under £29k though.

[RyeSloan]

I quite tile the solar tiles that look like slates. Most PV retrofits look utterly **** but they should look OK and may vene be acceptable in conservation areas like where I live. Edinburgh planners may be a bit more fussy, though!

I'm with you...the solar panels stuck on roof look is rarely a good one!

Elon's tiles tho are superb (of a bit pricey) but you can see the potential there.

If it was me in charge I would be changing the building regs to have every new build have something similar (with powerwall style storage) pretty sharpish. OK that would drive up the basic cost but the running costs of the house would be dramatically reduced as would their use of fossil fuels for heating or from the grid.

[lord bunberry]

The average price paid is still just under £29k though.
The average price doesn't bare any relevance to the price most people can afford though. The average wage is far more than most people in this country earn. It's a meaningless figure.

[Moulin Yarns]

The average price paid is still just under £29k though.

Because 1 Bentley Continental bumps the average considerably more than any Toyota Aygo. (the Bentley is 18x the cost of the Toyota)

[Scouse Hibee]

Because 1 Bentley Continental bumps the average considerably more than any Toyota Aygo. (the Bentley is 18x the cost of the Toyota)

Yes I understand how average costs are calculated.

[GreenLake]

That's pretty average or less than average in the UK for a new car.

It's meant to go against the likes of the BMW 3 series so the price is fine. You can forget about petrol costs too which is pretty significant.

It also gets you to 60 mph in less than 6 seconds. Not sure what in the price range does that.

It can do that with tax payer subsidies but look what happens when those are withdrawn (http://nordic.businessinsider.com/teslas-sales-fell-a-jaw-dropping-94-in-denmark-last-year--and-elon-musk-could-see-it-from-miles-away-2017-6/).

[lord bunberry]

It can do that with tax payer subsidies but look what happens when those are withdrawn (http://nordic.businessinsider.com/teslas-sales-fell-a-jaw-dropping-94-in-denmark-last-year--and-elon-musk-could-see-it-from-miles-away-2017-6/).
180% import tax!! No wonder the electric cars were so popular.

[Moulin Yarns]

The average price paid is still just under £29k though.

Base price at launch £35k and it has less range than a Renault Zoe. 2019 before a British Spec car is available as well.

https://www.whatcar.com/news/tesla-model-3/?utm_medium=EMAIL&utm_campaign=Enews%20bulletins&utm_content=WCAR%20Enews%20Bulletin%20(02.08.2017) ::image1&utm_source=20170802

[Sergio sledge]

Base price at launch £35k and it has less range than a Renault Zoe. 2019 before a British Spec car is available as well.

https://www.whatcar.com/news/tesla-model-3/?utm_medium=EMAIL&utm_campaign=Enews%20bulletins&utm_content=WCAR%20Enews%20Bulletin%20(02.08.2017) ::image1&utm_source=20170802

Bit unfair to compare the range of the base spec Tesla with the top spec ZOE isn't it? You can also take the £4,500 grant from the government off the £35,000 price.

A top spec ZOE, with a slightly longer range than the Tesla base spec and quick charging (which the Tesla has as standard) will cost you nearly £30,000 before the government grant. Only £5,000 less than the Tesla.

They're not even comparable in terms of car type anyway, the Tesla has much more space in it, is faster and a higher spec of interiors etc.

[Moulin Yarns]

Bit unfair to compare the range of the base spec Tesla with the top spec ZOE isn't it? You can also take the £4,500 grant from the government off the £35,000 price.

A top spec ZOE, with a slightly longer range than the Tesla base spec and quick charging (which the Tesla has as standard) will cost you nearly £30,000 before the government grant. Only £5,000 less than the Tesla.

They're not even comparable in terms of car type anyway, the Tesla has much more space in it, is faster and a higher spec of interiors etc.

And not on sale in the UK for another 2 years minimum.

[Just Jimmy]

I've got a 2015 diesel. i live in manchester. i can pop home to see family in Fife or more importantly watch Hibs on a tank of diesel. right now it costs me £40ish to fill up. the Train at cheap time is usually £60 return. I can go Manchester to Fife and back on one tank. If my other half comes with me that saves us £80 plus we have the car in Scotland for getting around.

Until they produce a car that can match the range without charge of even a good petrol car then it's not going to happen.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[RyeSloan]

I've got a 2015 diesel. i live in manchester. i can pop home to see family in Fife or more importantly watch Hibs on a tank of diesel. right now it costs me £40ish to fill up. the Train at cheap time is usually £60 return. I can go Manchester to Fife and back on one tank. If my other half comes with me that saves us £80 plus we have the car in Scotland for getting around.

Until they produce a car that can match the range without charge of even a good petrol car then it's not going to happen.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

500,000 reservations for the model 3 would suggest otherwise!

To be fair though this is just the start...who knows what another 10 or so years of development will bring in terms of range, charging speeds etc.

[GreenLake]

I might buy a Tesla when I get tired of a V12 and have a house with a detached fireproof garage.

[Colr]

I would buy one on salary sacrifice if I could charge it at work.