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View Full Version : What should happen to honours won by Rangers in the EBT years?



JeMeSouviens
07-07-2017, 12:08 PM
The Old Rangers FC have finally been found guilty of tax dodging by the Supreme Court.

They were previously found guilty of failing to disclose the EBT payments (and side letters that guaranteed them) to the SFA and fined £250000. However, nothing was done regarding the honours the club won while it was making the payments as at the time of the SFA's verdict, a First Tier Tax Tribunal had found the payments weren't liable to tax. Therefore the SFA maintained that no sporting advantage was gained because other clubs could have done the same thing.

Now the Supreme Court verdict is finally in, what should happen?

CallumLaidlaw
07-07-2017, 12:09 PM
The Old Rangers FC have finally been found guilty of tax dodging by the Supreme Court.

They were previously found guilty of failing to disclose the EBT payments (and side letters that guaranteed them) to the SFA and fined £250000. However, nothing was done regarding the honours the club won while it was making the payments as at the time of the SFA's verdict, a First Tier Tax Tribunal had found the payments weren't liable to tax. Therefore the SFA maintained that no sporting advantage was gained because other clubs could have done the same thing.

Now the Supreme Court verdict is finally in, what should happen?

They should be stripped but the titles should remain vacant for those years. If they had not used the EBT scheme there's no proof as to how results would've panned out.


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hfc rd
07-07-2017, 12:15 PM
Should be stripped. Cheated to win those trophies and should have them removed from their name

Carheenlea
07-07-2017, 12:19 PM
Doesn't bother me really. Lost interest in the Rangers saga a long time ago and the eyes glaze over when the subject raises it's head. Has no bearing on us really.

MichaelTheCelt
07-07-2017, 12:19 PM
Stripped and voided. An asterisk should go beside those years in the history books with a statement as to why they were voided.

* For cheating and bringing the game into disrepute, or something like that.

Sweet Left Peg
07-07-2017, 12:23 PM
Void them. They cheated to win them but it's impossible to say how other teams would have fared against Rangers teams full of players that they could afford. There was clearly a sporting advantage sought, otherwise why do it in the first place? Why go to such lengths to put players on the pitch that they couldn't otherwise afford? But you can't say that because the team placed first cheated, the team that was second should be awarded it in their place. There are far too many variables in football. Replace the players that benefitted from EBTs with different players and every single match played would turn out differently due to different individuals making different decisions at different points of the game. Some of the scores may have been the same but only through chance. So the only way to alter the history books, as it were, is to say that because Rangers cheated, their records should become null and void.

Jag7
07-07-2017, 12:23 PM
I see Barry Ferguson could owe the taxman £1.4m what kind of money were they paying him !!! 😱

Hibbycol
07-07-2017, 12:26 PM
Strip them of trophies and titles , incidentally on this subject will eufa want to take the Huns to court to get the money back that was given to the Huns for the European games , leagues they where in ? I do hope so because they are CHEATING BAR STEWARDS ( proven guilty in court by the law) 😁

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Keith_M
07-07-2017, 12:27 PM
I see Barry Ferguson could owe the taxman £1.4m what kind of money were they paying him !!! 😱


I think that's an estimate based on a 50% tax rate, at least it was in the DR.

makaveli1875
07-07-2017, 12:33 PM
Strip them of everything they won by cheating

GreenNWhiteArmy
07-07-2017, 12:33 PM
I don't think its as black and white as a lot of people have been making out since the ruling. The knock on effect is huge.

Do all points awarded become null and void? What about the impact its had on the other teams not directly impacted by being a runners up. clubs that suffered relegation as a consequence of this?

What about the titles Rangers didn't win how do we compensate clubs who were directly behind them? the year we finished third for example would we have been bumped up to 2nd so potentially missed out on CL revenue?

lapsedhibee
07-07-2017, 12:35 PM
The Supreme Court ruling is neither here nor there. The Old Thes should have forfeited every game in which they fielded 'imperfectly registered players' as soon as the side letters became public knowledge. Either league standings should be recalculated for those years assuming The Old Thes lost every match 3-0, and titles awarded accordingly, or - if the rest of the SPFL clubs prefer - asterisks should be put against all the titles and trophies won by the Huns during the period. And if the total of asterisked titles and trophies comes to 13, the Thes should be made to wear 13 asterisks on their tops for five years. (Unless the Thes are a new club, in which case they shouldn't.)

Issue for me is not about tax dodging. They embarked on a risky tax strategy which failed - a bad business decision. Issue is about corrupt governance. Small clubs are made to suffer for accidentally contravening the sport's regulations, and Rangers should suffer (by more than a nominal fine) for wantonly flouting the sport's regulations. Heartily sick of the huns being above and beyond the rules in every way. When I see a hun forearm smash a Hibs player at Ibrox (Boyd/Zemmama), I want to see an immediate red card for the hun. Doing away with some of their historic titles might be a small start in creating a level-playing-field culture.

Ozyhibby
07-07-2017, 12:36 PM
I think that's an estimate based on a 50% tax rate, at least it was in the DR.

Ferguson a bill will be nearer £4.5m when penalties and interest are applied.


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IncredibleHibee
07-07-2017, 12:37 PM
Tax evasion is illegal and that is oldco's crime. Now, someone who for example deals drugs for money is committing a crime. under the law the drug money , ill gotten gains, is forfeited/taken away. Oldco's ill gotten gains are the trophies so it only follows that they too are taken away.

SirDavidsNapper
07-07-2017, 12:37 PM
Stripped 100% They gained an advantage on the field through dodgy deals. End of. If it doesn't happen it's another disgrace.

KWJ
07-07-2017, 12:39 PM
They should be stripped but the titles should remain vacant for those years. If they had not used the EBT scheme there's no proof as to how results would've panned out.


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This. Voted the 2nd one but this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004%E2%80%9305_Serie_A

Ozyhibby
07-07-2017, 12:40 PM
If the poll results in a vote in favour of stripping the titles, would the admins consider releasing a statement from Hibs.net similar to those released by Aberdeen and Dundee Utd fans?

MacGruber
07-07-2017, 12:42 PM
They're not the only team to have been cheating!
Not naming any names, let's just say those that stole the poppies and leave it at that

lapsedhibee
07-07-2017, 12:47 PM
This. Voted the 2nd one but this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004%E2%80%9305_Serie_A
Astonishingly competitive league table - only 3 points separated UEFA Cup qualifiers Roma from relegated Bologna, and they had exactly the same goal difference!

Bristolhibby
07-07-2017, 12:55 PM
I don't think its as black and white as a lot of people have been making out since the ruling. The knock on effect is huge.

Do all points awarded become null and void? What about the impact its had on the other teams not directly impacted by being a runners up. clubs that suffered relegation as a consequence of this?

What about the titles Rangers didn't win how do we compensate clubs who were directly behind them? the year we finished third for example would we have been bumped up to 2nd so potentially missed out on CL revenue?

Yes, we did get cheated.

Strip titles and Cup wins.

Practically it makes no difference, but it makes a massive statement that cheats shouldn't prosper.

J

guthrie01
07-07-2017, 12:56 PM
Should they be stripped of titles ?
Yes

Will they be stripped of the titles ?
Not a chance

There will be a few days of outrage then fans will slowly forget about it and Rangers will once again dodge any real penalty for their cheating

blackpoolhibs
07-07-2017, 01:03 PM
Every cup win that was won from cheating should be stripped from their cup tally, and every league game should be given now as a 3-0 defeat.

Resulting in those title wins also being stripped from them.

Every season they cheated and won something, their name should be wiped from that list, and a star put next to the winners that says, no winner and give the reason.

People will then look at the records and see there was no winner and also see why.

Ozyhibby
07-07-2017, 01:05 PM
Every cup win that was won from cheating should be stripped from their cup tally, and every league game should be given now as a 3-0 defeat.

Resulting in those title wins also being stripped from them.

Every season they cheated and won something, their name should be wiped from that list, and a star put next to the winners that says, no winner and give the reason.

People will then look at the records and see why there was no winner and also see why.

Agree 100%.


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Hibrandenburg
07-07-2017, 01:07 PM
Change the history books and leave the relevant years blank so that future generations will ask the question as to why there are no winners honours for those particular years. That way the scars they have left will be a reminder for generations to come that Glasgow Rangers were cheats and cheats can't be allowed to prosper.

Ozyhibby
07-07-2017, 01:10 PM
If the poll results in a vote in favour of stripping the titles, would the admins consider releasing a statement from Hibs.net similar to those released by Aberdeen and Dundee Utd fans?

lapsedhibee
07-07-2017, 01:10 PM
Every cup win that was won from cheating should be stripped from their cup tally, and every league game should be given now as a 3-0 defeat.

Resulting in those title wins also being stripped from them.

Every season they cheated and won something, their name should be wiped from that list, and a star put next to the winners that says, no winner and give the reason.

People will then look at the records and see why there was no winner and also see why.

You can't have both the 3-0 defeats and the asterisks, imo. If you have the 3-0 defeats you have a different league winner shirley?

.Sean.
07-07-2017, 01:26 PM
If the poll results in a vote in favour of stripping the titles, would the admins consider releasing a statement from Hibs.net similar to those released by Aberdeen and Dundee Utd fans?
They absolutely should.

The should have the titles stripped and the winners left blank.

blackpoolhibs
07-07-2017, 01:43 PM
You can't have both the 3-0 defeats and the asterisks, imo. If you have the 3-0 defeats you have a different league winner shirley?

I disagree, i believe you can give them 3-0 defeats and then have no winner, and give the reason why.

Super_JMcGinn
07-07-2017, 01:48 PM
Stripped and voided. An asterisk should go beside those years in the history books with a statement as to why they were voided.

* For cheating and bringing the game into disrepute, or something like that.

Aye right then :aok:

Ozyhibby
07-07-2017, 01:52 PM
88% voting for stripping the titles so far. Views of Hibs fans beginning to become clear.


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Hibernia&Alba
07-07-2017, 01:53 PM
The supreme court has spoken and given a unanimous decision about misuse of EBTs; the question now is what should be done in relation to trophies won as a consequence of that financial doping. Something MUST be done.

I prefer trophies removed and handed to the runners up in each case. Teams who played by the rules should be ruled the winners, IMO.

Crazyhorse
07-07-2017, 01:54 PM
Every cup win that was won from cheating should be stripped from their cup tally, and every league game should be given now as a 3-0 defeat.

Resulting in those title wins also being stripped from them.

Every season they cheated and won something, their name should be wiped from that list, and a star put next to the winners that says, no winner and give the reason.

People will then look at the records and see there was no winner and also see why.

Agree with all of that.

Hibernia&Alba
07-07-2017, 01:57 PM
So far three votes for no action. Come out Keith Jackson, Chick Young and fatty Traynor, we know you're there :greengrin

Super_JMcGinn
07-07-2017, 02:03 PM
So far three votes for no action. Come out Keith Jackson, Chick Young and fatty Traynor, we know you're there :greengrin

Guilty as charged :greengrin. it makes no difference to anyone other than their equally unstomachable neighbours imo and should be left well alone.

Ozyhibby
07-07-2017, 02:12 PM
Guilty as charged :greengrin. it makes no difference to anyone other than their equally unstomachable neighbours imo and should be left well alone.

It makes a difference to me. I want Hibs to be playing in a fair competition.


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Super_JMcGinn
07-07-2017, 02:17 PM
It makes a difference to me. I want Hibs to be playing in a fair competition.


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I have news for you Mr Oz, it's not been a level playing field for decades. Do you think we're playing on a level playing field with celtic now? Not a chance.

Smartie
07-07-2017, 02:18 PM
At the start of this week I'd have probably voted Don't know/ don't care.

The priority for me is to ensure that our current game stands up to scrutiny. I'd rather focus on ensuring the rules we have in place and the people enforcing them were worthy, so we know that next season's competition is a fair one.

I haven't in the past really seen the point in retrospectively docking titles.


Having said all of that, I've read a lot on the subject this week and have come to change my mind. The whole issue revolves around these side letters. The side letters meant that players were incorrectly registered and the penalties for that have always been severe. Given that the side letters were issued in order to obtain an unfair advantage, I believe that the titles are tainted and therefore should be removed.

I don't have a problem with the general concept of the EBTs. If a tax loophole exists and a club finds a way to exploit it then that's their look out. The thing about any tax loophole though is that you must get your paperwork in order and you must be able to stand up in court and defend your LEGAL actions.

It is now clear that nobody at Rangers can do so. This is probably a paperwork issue and they have been poorly advised as much as anything. But people who are poorly advised and don't have a good grip on their paperwork go to prison on a daily basis, therefore Rangers must face an equivalent footballing punishment.

BegbieHSC
07-07-2017, 02:19 PM
Do we have a couple of hun sleeper agents on this or something? Who are the 3 who have voted against any action?

Smartie
07-07-2017, 02:23 PM
I have news for you Mr Oz, it's not been a level playing field for decades. Do you think we're playing on a level playing field with celtic now? Not a chance.

If it's not a level playing field then why bother following a team?

Some teams have more fans, more income, better players than others. That doesn't mean it isn't a level playing field.

We might in years to come qualify for Europe, the Champions League, win more trophies and end up being a much bigger club. If we do it by running a business well, by doing things right on the park then we've earned it.

If we end up a bigger club than most because of that, it is because we've earned it, not because we've benefitted from a non-level playing field.

As it stands we're the 3rd/4th/5th biggest club in Scotland, bigger than most clubs. Do we benefit from an advantage over the smaller clubs? Or have we just earned our advantageous position in the game over them?

Ozyhibby
07-07-2017, 02:26 PM
I have news for you Mr Oz, it's not been a level playing field for decades. Do you think we're playing on a level playing field with celtic now? Not a chance.

What rules are Celtic breaking just now? I'm all for going after them if they are at it as well.


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Ozyhibby
07-07-2017, 02:27 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170707/3fde256b506f4bf8b5d5cd1ca73301af.jpg



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Super_JMcGinn
07-07-2017, 02:42 PM
If it's not a level playing field then why bother following a team?

Some teams have more fans, more income, better players than others. That doesn't mean it isn't a level playing field.

We might in years to come qualify for Europe, the Champions League, win more trophies and end up being a much bigger club. If we do it by running a business well, by doing things right on the park then we've earned it.

If we end up a bigger club than most because of that, it is because we've earned it, not because we've benefitted from a non-level playing field.

As it stands we're the 3rd/4th/5th biggest club in Scotland, bigger than most clubs. Do we benefit from an advantage over the smaller clubs? Or have we just earned our advantageous position in the game over them?

We might be the 3rd/4th/5th biggest club but that doesn't guarantee us to even finish in the top 6, or even stay in the league. Whereas celtic's advantage over the rest guaranteed them the title ( when Rangers weren't there ) and guarantees the old firm the title when they are.

Ozyhibby
07-07-2017, 02:46 PM
We might be the 3rd/4th/5th biggest club but that doesn't guarantee us to even finish in the top 6, or even stay in the league. Whereas celtic's advantage over the rest guaranteed them the title ( when Rangers weren't there ) and guarantees the old firm the title when they are.

Your talking about something else altogether then. This is a poll about playing by the rules.


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Since90+2
07-07-2017, 02:47 PM
Celtic being the biggest club in the country and them almost being guaranteed to win the league has absolutely nothing to do with how Rangers cheated to win trophies. To even try and equate the two issues is daft.

Is It On....
07-07-2017, 02:48 PM
I see Barry Ferguson could owe the taxman £1.4m what kind of money were they paying him !!! 😱

£1.4m doesn't include any late penalty payments which could add another £1m to it.

Hibernia&Alba
07-07-2017, 02:49 PM
£1.4m doesn't include any late penalty payments which could add another £1m to it.

I remember he had plenty of those!

Super_JMcGinn
07-07-2017, 02:55 PM
Celtic being the biggest club in the country and them almost being guaranteed to win the league has absolutely nothing to do with how Rangers cheated to win trophies. To even try and equate the two issues is daft.

The thing is though the club and the players didn't cheat did they, they were poorly advised by qualified accountants. I don't think the staff who took out the loans wouldn't have done so knowing they were breaking any law, and I don't think the club would have either.

All just my opinion of course and I don't really care enough to be bothered about it either way, it won't make a difference to my life if they're stripped of titles or not.

blackpoolhibs
07-07-2017, 02:57 PM
I have news for you Mr Oz, it's not been a level playing field for decades. Do you think we're playing on a level playing field with celtic now? Not a chance.

Ah well thats fine then, let's have cheating allowed, lets all do what we want and bump the taxman.

SChibs
07-07-2017, 03:00 PM
Does anyone know what happened to the juventus titles when they were caught match fixing and relegated?

lapsedhibee
07-07-2017, 03:06 PM
The thing is though the club and the players didn't cheat did they, they were poorly advised by qualified accountants.

Side letters.

Hibernia&Alba
07-07-2017, 03:10 PM
Side letters.

:agree:

The smoking gun. Rumbled, you corrupt Hun *****.

Super_JMcGinn
07-07-2017, 03:10 PM
Ah well thats fine then, let's have cheating allowed, lets all do what we want and bump the taxman.

No self respecting citizen would ever dream of bumping the tax man now would they, what a silly suggestion.

blackpoolhibs
07-07-2017, 03:11 PM
No self respecting citizen would ever dream of bumping the tax man now would they, what a silly suggestion.

And if they are caught................

Ozyhibby
07-07-2017, 03:13 PM
The thing is though the club and the players didn't cheat did they, they were poorly advised by qualified accountants. I don't think the staff who took out the loans wouldn't have done so knowing they were breaking any law, and I don't think the club would have either.

All just my opinion of course and I don't really care enough to be bothered about it either way, it won't make a difference to my life if they're stripped of titles or not.

Did their tax advisors advise them to conceal the 2nd contracts from the SFA? No they did not.
Why do you think they did that? They did it because they were cheating. The rules are very clear. All players contracts must be registered with the SFA and there are very good reasons for that.
If Rangers did not know they were breaking the law then why did they conceal the 2nd contracts from HMRC? They knew that what they were doing was tax evasion on a grand scale.
They were cheating, plain and simple.


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Jones28
07-07-2017, 03:16 PM
So do all points won then change for everyone else if their league games are voided? Eg those in the bottom six at the end of the season will recieve an extra 9 and those in the top six an extra 12? Should have any baring on relegation etc etc but just for histories sake.

Super_JMcGinn
07-07-2017, 03:16 PM
Did their tax advisors advise them to conceal the 2nd contracts from the SFA? No they did not.
Why do you think they did that? They did it because they were cheating. The rules are very clear. All players contracts must be registered with the SFA and there are very good reasons for that.
If Rangers did not know they were breaking the law then why did they conceal the 2nd contracts from HMRC? They knew that what they were doing was tax evasion on a grand scale.
They were cheating, plain and simple.


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I'm sorry Mr Oz I don't know enough about it as you so I'll bow out before I make a fool of myself ( if I haven't already done so ) I should have just left it at my vote without comment. :aok:

bill_reed
07-07-2017, 03:18 PM
Does anyone know what happened to the juventus titles when they were caught match fixing and relegated?


Juventus finished as champions, however they were later stripped of the title due to their involvement in the 2006 Serie A scandal. Runners-up Milan were also implicated in the scandal, and as a result that season's title was not awarded to any club.

A Hi-Bee
07-07-2017, 03:23 PM
All titles percieved to have been won while the financial doping was going on, must be stripped from them, let the history books show this with an Asterix against the name and year, explanation for future generations to see under the heading something like-Title/cup stripped due to this club bringing the game into disrepute.

End off, no requirement for any other club to benefit from their cheating.

As for level playing fields, Scottish football has never been a level playing field never will be, just have to look at the referees in this country while most teams do try to play the game under the present rules.

The SFA should go, if required the fans should boycott the SFA until they go.

All just my humble opinion of course, but I am ******ing right.:cb

Carheenlea
07-07-2017, 03:36 PM
All titles percieved to have been won while the financial doping was going on, must be stripped from them, let the history books show this with an Asterix against the name and year, explanation for future generations to see under the heading something like-Title/cup stripped due to this club bringing the game into disrepute.

End off, no requirement for any other club to benefit from their cheating.

As for level playing fields, Scottish football has never been a level playing field never will be, just have to look at the referees in this country while most teams do try to play the game under the present rules.

The SFA should go, if required the fans should boycott the SFA until they go.

All just my humble opinion of course, but I am ******ing right.:cb

How do you boycott the SFA?

Ozyhibby
07-07-2017, 03:37 PM
I'm sorry Mr Oz I don't know enough about it as you so I'll bow out before I make a fool of myself ( if I haven't already done so ) I should have just left it at my vote without comment. :aok:

No probs. There is a lot of misinformation being put out by our Rangers friendly media so it's no surprise there are fans out there who think they did nothing wrong.


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lapsedhibee
07-07-2017, 03:41 PM
All titles percieved to have been won while the financial doping was going on, must be stripped from them, let the history books show this with an Asterix against the name and year

Would certainly be galling for the huns. :agree:

Pete
07-07-2017, 03:43 PM
What should happen and what will happen are two very different things.

There's no way titles will be stripped.

WhileTheChief..
07-07-2017, 03:50 PM
Don't care either way but I guess stripping titles from them would be a good laugh for the rest of us.

BegbieHSC
07-07-2017, 03:53 PM
Check King's Statement: absolutely delusional https://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/dave-king-message

My Highlights:

"We should continue to ignore those responsible by boycotting their publications and outlets.

DK on Celtic: "It is disappointing that they have attempted to influence the footballing authorities to alter its historic football honours by calling on administrators and lawyers to achieve off the pitch what its teams failed to do on the pitch"

"It is reassuring to note that the SFA promptly and correctly put out a statement confirming, against Celtic’s attempt to influence that the final tax ruling has no impact whatsoever on the practical and legal findings already made"

Lets get a statement, Hibs!!

Hibernia&Alba
07-07-2017, 04:00 PM
What should happen and what will happen are two very different things.

There's no way titles will be stripped.

I agree they'll get away with it, sadly; but the rest of Scottish football should fight it all the way.

Ozyhibby
07-07-2017, 04:01 PM
Check King's Statement: absolutely delusional https://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/dave-king-message

My Highlights:

"We should continue to ignore those responsible by boycotting their publications and outlets.

DK on Celtic: "It is disappointing that they have attempted to influence the footballing authorities to alter its historic football honours by calling on administrators and lawyers to achieve off the pitch what its teams failed to do on the pitch"

"It is reassuring to note that the SFA promptly and correctly put out a statement confirming, against Celtic’s attempt to influence that the final tax ruling has no impact whatsoever on the practical and legal findings already made"

Lets get a statement, Hibs!!

That statement just make me want justice even more. We need to hear from Hibs on this.


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Ozyhibby
07-07-2017, 04:03 PM
I agree they'll get away with it, sadly; but the rest of Scottish football should fight it all the way.

The only way they get away with it is if we all let them. It's down to the fans of all the decent clubs who did not cheat to let the SFA and the SPFL know that this can't stand.


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Mr White
07-07-2017, 04:04 PM
Check King's Statement: absolutely delusional https://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/dave-king-message

My Highlights:

"We should continue to ignore those responsible by boycotting their publications and outlets.

DK on Celtic: "It is disappointing that they have attempted to influence the footballing authorities to alter its historic football honours by calling on administrators and lawyers to achieve off the pitch what its teams failed to do on the pitch"

"It is reassuring to note that the SFA promptly and correctly put out a statement confirming, against Celtic’s attempt to influence that the final tax ruling has no impact whatsoever on the practical and legal findings already made"

Lets get a statement, Hibs!!

While I am Chairman, Rangers’ overspending will always be on a sustainable and robust basis and one that safeguards the future of our Club."

:faf:

Looks like he's taking a leaf out of David Southern's book for his interpretation of the word "sustainable" there.

Ozyhibby
07-07-2017, 04:08 PM
Hearts fans stepping up the pressure on Budge and FoH to release a statement. Be good if we can beat them to it.


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Keith_M
07-07-2017, 04:21 PM
Would certainly be galling for the huns. :agree:


I bet a lot of people didn't get that one, but it's a real bug-bear of mine.

:greengrin

660
07-07-2017, 04:46 PM
Hearts fans stepping up the pressure on Budge and FoH to release a statement. Be good if we can beat them to it.


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Hearts up in arms over another clubs financial mismanagement shows a lack of self awareness on their part.

Pete
07-07-2017, 04:46 PM
Hearts fans stepping up the pressure on Budge and FoH to release a statement. Be good if we can beat them to it.


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What do you want us to say?

Souter96Mac
07-07-2017, 04:51 PM
I'm mainly peeved at when people/pundits talk about Rangers' 'relegation'

guthrie01
07-07-2017, 04:55 PM
Hearts fans stepping up the pressure on Budge and FoH to release a statement. Be good if we can beat them to it.


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Hearts fans upset about another club spending money they didn't have....

:hmmm:

therealgavmac
07-07-2017, 05:02 PM
What should happen and what will happen are two very different things.

There's no way titles will be stripped.

My thoughts exactly, for this reason I didn't bother to add to this threads vote......

Eyrie
07-07-2017, 05:06 PM
The correct answer, as so many of us have voted, is that they should be stripped of the trophies which are then left vacant.

Putting an asterisk next to Huns RIP on the winners list will mean nothing to most people, and awarding the trophy to the runner up is difficult since it's impossible to know how any given competition would have worked out if Huns RIP had used players they could afford. It would also cover up what happened as a winner would still be listed.

Having the trophy winners void would make clear that the team who lifted the trophy that year did so using means which have now been found in a court of law to be illegal.

The footballing authorities are not above the rule of law and should have to respect the judgment of the court. The problem is that they'd rather upset the rest of Scottish football than do anything to upset Sevco.

Hibs need to get the finger out. If not, then I'd be in favour of .net and the Bounce speaking out on our behalf.

Redford Raj
07-07-2017, 05:06 PM
Why don't we start the ball rolling by agitating to having David Mirray's his Honary Degree awarded by Edinburgh University suspended or revoked

Onion
07-07-2017, 05:10 PM
They simply MUST be stripped of those titles to retain the integrity of the game. Anything else would be a disgrace and every pressure needs to be placed on the SFA/SPFL to do the right thing - just as it was when Sevco was placed into the 3rd tier.

emerald green
07-07-2017, 05:16 PM
My feeling is that this will be swept under the carpet, as per usual, and the old Ibrox club will not be stripped of any titles and/or trophies obtained unfairly during the "EBT years".

This doesn't mean that they don't deserve to have these titles taken away from them. They are forever tainted anyway, no matter what eventually happens.

What I find strange is why over the decade or so that this was going on at Ibrox, absolutely nobody (from any club) raised a red flag at the time? Or did they, and that was kicked into the long grass too?

Redford Raj
07-07-2017, 05:24 PM
Why don't we start the ball rolling by agitating to having David Mirray's his Honary Degree awarded by Edinburgh University suspended or revoked

Eyrie
07-07-2017, 05:42 PM
Why don't we start the ball rolling by agitating to having David Mirray's his Honary Degree awarded by Edinburgh University suspended or revoked

That would be up to people who attended Edinburgh Uni.

I'm a fan of a football club who potentially lost out due to Huns RIP cheating the taxman and being dishonest to the football authorities about player contracts, which is why I want those illegally gained trophies removed.

Ozyhibby
07-07-2017, 05:45 PM
My feeling is that this will be swept under the carpet, as per usual, and the old Ibrox club will not be stripped of any titles and/or trophies obtained unfairly during the "EBT years".

This doesn't mean that they don't deserve to have these titles taken away from them. They are forever tainted anyway, no matter what eventually happens.

What I find strange is why over the decade or so that this was going on at Ibrox, absolutely nobody (from any club) raised a red flag at the time? Or did they, and that was kicked into the long grass too?

Nobody knew they were running a dual contract scheme until City of London police raided Ibrox in 2007 and stumbled across all the illegal 2nd contracts. Without that raid this may never have come to light.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/jul/17/football.mattscott



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Colr
07-07-2017, 05:46 PM
That would be up to people who attended Edinburgh Uni.

I'm a fan of a football club who potentially lost out due to Huns RIP cheating the taxman and being dishonest to the football authorities about player contracts, which is why I want those illegally gained trophies removed.

Why don't the SFA take the trophies and ram them one by one up David Murray's arse?

A Hi-Bee
07-07-2017, 06:00 PM
Would certainly be galling for the huns. :agree:

Sharp as a knitting needle lapsed, this is no gladiatorial contest, only justice. :cb

A Hi-Bee
07-07-2017, 06:01 PM
Why don't the SFA take the trophies and ram them one by one up David Murray's arse?

The SFA are part of the problem.

Ozyhibby
07-07-2017, 06:05 PM
https://www.change.org/p/spfl-rangers-fc-to-be-stripped-of-14-league-titles?recruiter=625847876&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition&utm_term=autopublish

Only takes 1 minute


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lapsedhibee
07-07-2017, 06:06 PM
They simply MUST be stripped of those titles to retain the integrity of the game. Anything else would be a disgrace and every pressure needs to be placed on the SFA/SPFL to do the right thing - just as it was when Sevco was placed into the 3rd tier.

Don't think that was the right thing. According to the rules didn't other clubs have at the time better claims to be accepted into the bottom tier (actually fourth)? Way I remember it is that Sevco got in because rules don't necessarily apply to them.

lapsedhibee
07-07-2017, 06:10 PM
Why don't the SFA take the trophies and ram them one by one up David Murray's arse?
Ridiculous suggestion which will never happen.

Completely impossible to do from the inside.

MichaelTheCelt
07-07-2017, 06:11 PM
Are any fan groups getting in touch with one another to do something about this? Celtic Hibs Aberdeen Hearts and so on? Supporters showing a united front something like a massive protest outside Hampden which I would absolutely attend. Something like that would surely force their hand?

Pete
07-07-2017, 06:17 PM
Probably not going to be popular but I have no real desire to get involved in what is primarily a Celtic driven campaign. They will be the only real winners in this little tit for tat trophy count they have between themselves which I couldn't care less about. Getting into bed with Celtic makes me slightly nauseous as they've both been shafting us for decades and are as bad as each other. Nine in a row, ten in a row...not bothered.

No offence. :-)

A Hi-Bee
07-07-2017, 06:18 PM
Are any fan groups getting in touch with one another to do something about this? Celtic Hibs Aberdeen Hearts and so on? Supporters showing a united front something like a massive protest outside Hampden which I would absolutely attend. Something like that would surely force their hand?

As many football suporters as could make it, to all do a dump on the steps of Hampden as this whole long episode stinks.

lapsedhibee
07-07-2017, 06:18 PM
Probably not going to be popular but I have no real desire to get involved in what is primarily a Celtic driven campaign. They will be the only real winners in this little tit for tat trophy count they have between themselves which I couldn't care less about. Getting into bed with Celtic makes me slightly nauseous as they've both been shafting us for decades and are as bad as each other. Nine in a row, ten in a row...not bothered.

No offence. :-)

Don't think what the Sheepies and Arabs have done so far is anything to do with Celtc.

MichaelTheCelt
07-07-2017, 06:23 PM
It's not Celtic alone, it's each and every individual supporter of clubs who paid good money during these years for a rigged game in favour of the establishment club. Fans missed out Clubs missed out. The MSM are gonna go into overdrive and make this out to be a Celtic Rangers thing to put off supporters of other teams make any noise, don't listen tae their *****!

Pete
07-07-2017, 06:23 PM
Don't think what the Sheepies and Arabs have done so far is anything to do with Celtc.

That's up to them and it seems driven by revenge...and I bet it pales into insignificance compared to what Celtic are doing though. Where did that petition start?

Like I said I'm not bothered. How will any of this benefit jobs?

Ozyhibby
07-07-2017, 06:27 PM
That's up to them and it seems driven by revenge...and I bet it pales into insignificance compared to what Celtic are doing though. Where did that petition start?

Like I said I'm not bothered. How will any of this benefit jobs?

It may force through changes that make sure that the competition we play in is fairer. How can that not be of benefit to Hibs?


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Pete
07-07-2017, 06:30 PM
It may force through changes that make sure that the competition we play in is fairer. How can that not be of benefit to Hibs?


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Such as?

If you think anything drastic will come of this, such as proper wealth distribution, then you are kidding yourself. That's the only thing that will make any difference and certainly won't be on any agenda involving Celtic.

MichaelTheCelt
07-07-2017, 06:32 PM
Surprised any Hibby wouldn't want to stick the boot into these cheating carrots, especially after the Scottish cup final last year. Remember when you's viciously assaulted Rangers players and their fans had to rush onto the pitch and protect their players :rolleyes:

#StripTheTitles

:gwa:

Pete
07-07-2017, 06:34 PM
It's not Celtic alone, it's each and every individual supporter of clubs who paid good money during these years for a rigged game in favour of the establishment club. Fans missed out Clubs missed out. The MSM are gonna go into overdrive and make this out to be a Celtic Rangers thing to put off supporters of other teams make any noise, don't listen tae their *****!

That's the same MSM that's benefited the pair of you in equal measure. For decades they have enforced the idea that there are only two shows in Scotland and the rest are insignificant side shows that should bow down when asked. The end result is streets full of kids in places like Fife wearing Celtic shirts.

Sorry but any sob stories or suggestions of media bias against Celtic won't wash with me.

Saying that, I'll sign the petition for a laugh. ;-)

MichaelTheCelt
07-07-2017, 06:40 PM
That's the same MSM that's benefited the pair of you in equal measure. For decades they have enforced the idea that there are only two shows in Scotland and the rest are insignificant side shows that should bow down when asked. The end result are streets full of kids in places like Fife wearing Celtic shirts.

Sorry but any sob stories or suggestions of media bias against Celtic won't wash with me.

Saying that, I'll sign the petition for a laugh. ;/)

The MSM do not represent me or my club they do what they do to make Ra Rangers relevant. Anyway this whole fiasco has nothing to do with kids in fife wearing Celtic jerseys.

There isn't only two shows in Scotland, the last 4 years without Rangers have proved that, the championship with Hibs Hearts was exciting, an Aberdeen side that ran us close, and managed two cup final runners up places this year, Kilmarnock winning the League Cup, Hibs with the Scottish cup, ICT with the Scottish cup. Funny how Scottish football was getting more interesting without those ****s!

Mr White
07-07-2017, 06:41 PM
Surprised any Hibby wouldn't want to stick the boot into these cheating carrots, especially after the Scottish cup final last year. Remember when you's viciously assaulted Rangers players and their fans had to rush onto the pitch and protect their players :rolleyes:

#StripTheTitles

:gwa:
We stuck the boot into them the best way possible that day. We get the chance to rub it in now every time we play them. This isn't a major concern for me, it's Celtc who were wronged, the rest of us may as well have been playing a different ****ing sport for at least the last 30 years as far as the league trophy is concerned.

Hibernia&Alba
07-07-2017, 06:49 PM
Probably not going to be popular but I have no real desire to get involved in what is primarily a Celtic driven campaign. They will be the only real winners in this little tit for tat trophy count they have between themselves which I couldn't care less about. Getting into bed with Celtic makes me slightly nauseous as they've both been shafting us for decades and are as bad as each other. Nine in a row, ten in a row...not bothered.

No offence. :-)

I disagree; it wasn't only Celtic who were cheated, it was the whole of Scottish football and the fans who paid money to watch what was a loaded competition. Every club and every football fan was swindled by Rangers' financial doping. The question of justice and punishment also affects us all.

O'Rourke3
07-07-2017, 06:49 PM
Probably not going to be popular but I have no real desire to get involved in what is primarily a Celtic driven campaign. They will be the only real winners in this little tit for tat trophy count they have between themselves which I couldn't care less about. Getting into bed with Celtic makes me slightly nauseous as they've both been shafting us for decades and are as bad as each other. Nine in a row, ten in a row...not bothered.

No offence. :-)
I couldn't give a monkeys whether Celtic are involved or not. Athletes get medals removed after new testing technique show they cheated. Lance Armstrong anyone. It's simply the right thing to do. TBF the fact it's Rangers helps - I can admit that much :greengrin

.Sean.
07-07-2017, 06:50 PM
88% voting for stripping the titles so far. Views of Hibs fans beginning to become clear.


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I'd say it's a fair reflection of Scottish football minus those of a Hunnish persuasion.

Ozyhibby
07-07-2017, 06:50 PM
Such as?

If you think anything drastic will come of this, such as proper wealth distribution, then you are kidding yourself. That's the only thing that will make any difference and certainly won't be on any agenda involving Celtic.

Wealth redistribution is a separate issue. I'm just trying to get existing rules enforced so that all clubs are treated the same.


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NAE NOOKIE
07-07-2017, 06:53 PM
Without even reading the thread I voted that the competitions they won in that period should be declared void ..... they clearly used nefarious methods to field a team they otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford and that gave them an unfair advantage on the field. But having said that you cant say with utter certainty what the actual outcome would have been in each competition because even without cheating they would still have been competitive.

For the same reason in my opinion the Yams cup win in 2012 should be looked at too ..... we were so weak that there is no guarantee that even with a 'normal' Hearts team on the pitch we could have won that final, but the big question is would a 'normal' Hearts team have been able to knock Celtic out in the semi final? ....... that's far more open to question ...... and I fail to see what the difference is between what Rangers did and what Hearts did .... both clubs paid players they couldn't afford by failing to pay their taxes.

In Hearts case you could say it was even worse .... Rangers thought they were exploiting a loophole in the system which has since been declared illegal, they were not the only business to be caught out by this, its not an excuse for the Huns because many other clubs decided against EBT's because their advisers had told them they could be illegal and not to touch them, the Huns took the risk and lost .... Hearts on the other hand simply used money they knew should have paid their tax, VAT and national insurance to pay players instead, players they simply knew were out of their price range .... it was even worse than that because they were also using money the owners knew was in effect stolen for the same purpose.

Ozyhibby
07-07-2017, 06:55 PM
I'd say it's a fair reflection of Scottish football minus those of a Hunnish persuasion.

Up to 90% now in favour of stripping the titles. Are the admins up for releasing a statement on behalf of Hibs.net? Would definitely carry a bit of weight given how many Hibs fans use the site every day.


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.Sean.
07-07-2017, 06:55 PM
Surprised any Hibby wouldn't want to stick the boot into these cheating carrots, especially after the Scottish cup final last year. Remember when you's viciously assaulted Rangers players and their fans had to rush onto the pitch and protect their players :rolleyes:

#StripTheTitles

:gwa:
Correct. Get a statement out Leanne and hit the ****s wi baith barrels :greengrin

Pete
07-07-2017, 06:59 PM
The MSM do not represent me or my club they do what they do to make Ra Rangers relevant. Anyway this whole fiasco has nothing to do with kids in fife wearing Celtic jerseys.

There isn't only two shows in Scotland, the last 4 years without Rangers have proved that, the championship with Hibs Hearts was exciting, an Aberdeen side that ran us close, and managed two cup final runners up places this year, Kilmarnock winning the League Cup, Hibs with the Scottish cup, ICT with the Scottish cup. Funny how Scottish football was getting more interesting without those ****s!

When you start mentioning the MSM it does become relevant if you're talking to anyone outside the old firm. They have represented the pair of you with blanket coverage for decades and they've contributed to the situation we are in now: disproportionately big Glasgow clubs. You are that far ahead that an "nteresting" season will now probably be a team finishing only 20 points behind you instead of 30.

Anyway, good luck with the campaign. It is quite funny seing any of you squirm. :greengrin

Pete
07-07-2017, 07:01 PM
I disagree; it wasn't only Celtic who were cheated, it was the whole of Scottish football and the fans who paid money to watch what was a loaded competition. Every club and every football fan was swindled by Rangers' financial doping. The question of justice and punishment also affects us all.

Aye, we probably would have only been slaughtered 3-0 instead of 4-0 on a few occasions. :-/

MichaelTheCelt
07-07-2017, 07:07 PM
When you start mentioning the MSM it does become relevant if you're talking to anyone outside the old firm. They have represented the pair of you with blanket coverage for decades and they've contributed to the situation we are in now: disproportionately big Glasgow clubs. You are that far ahead that an "nteresting" season will now probably be a team finishing only 20 points behind you instead of 30.

Anyway, good luck with the campaign. It is quite funny seing any of you squirm. :greengrin

Fair enough I do understand your position here. Undoubtedly the blanket bias from the Scottish media has been a detriment to our game, outsiders looking in think only Celtic and Rangers exist and the rest are here to make up the numbers. You see it when supporters of teams like Hull City, Burnley, Bolton, and so on think they are bigger than Hibernian, Dundee United, Aberdeen etc etc (I disagree with that).

Stripping the dead club of it's titles could see a massive change from top to bottom in the SFA and the media will be exposed for all their false reporting so maybe the change that you want and is desperately needed starts here...

Super_JMcGinn
07-07-2017, 07:09 PM
I'd say it's a fair reflection of Scottish football minus those of a Hunnish persuasion.

They're called the Old Firm for a reason you know, both have been in bed with each other for decades shafting the rest of Scottish football. All of a sudden celtic want to get out of bed with them because they are now wealthier.

I say we let them get on with it and make an arse of each other in public without our help. We have a celtic fan on here pushing their agenda and they will be on other fans forums doing the same upfront or incognito, I personally find it galling and condescending and had to put it on ignore.

lapsedhibee
07-07-2017, 07:13 PM
I fail to see what the difference is between what Rangers did and what Hearts did ....

Side letters.

Is It On....
07-07-2017, 07:15 PM
While I am Chairman, Rangers’ overspending will always be on a sustainable and robust basis and one that safeguards the future of our Club."

:faf:

Looks like he's taking a leaf out of David Southern's book for his interpretation of the word "sustainable" there.

"Over spending will always be on a sustainable and robust basis"...that is a legendary quote.

Since90+2
07-07-2017, 07:18 PM
They're called the Old Firm for a reason you know, both have been in bed with each other for decades shafting the rest of Scottish football. All of a sudden celtic want to get out of bed with them because they are now wealthier.

I say we let them get on with it and make an arse of each other in public without our help. We have a celtic fan on here pushing their agenda and they will be on other fans forums doing the same upfront or incognito, I personally find it galling and condescending and had to put it on ignore.

This is nothing to do with the Old firm or a Celtic fan posting on here pushing support for action to be taken (which I'd agree is mildly annoying but that's not the point).

As far as I'm aware Celtic have never been found to have illegaly avoided paying tax for almost a decade on salaries worth close to £50 million. I'm shocked that any Hibs supporter would not want a suitable punishement to be dished out for such action.

emerald green
07-07-2017, 07:22 PM
Nobody knew they were running a dual contract scheme until City of London police raided Ibrox in 2007 and stumbled across all the illegal 2nd contracts. Without that raid this may never have come to light.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/jul/17/football.mattscott



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OK thanks for reminding me about that. It's amazing to think that was 10 years ago now.

However, it still seems hard to believe that this was kept under wraps, or certainly out of the public domain, from 2001 until 2007. Were all those benefiting from EBTs sworn to secrecy? Nobody said a word to anyone in footballing circles? Nobody knew?

MichaelTheCelt
07-07-2017, 07:26 PM
They're called the Old Firm for a reason you know, both have been in bed with each other for decades shafting the rest of Scottish football. All of a sudden celtic want to get out of bed with them because they are now wealthier.

I say we let them get on with it and make an arse of each other in public without our help. We have a celtic fan on here pushing their agenda and they will be on other fans forums doing the same upfront or incognito, I personally find it galling and condescending and had to put it on ignore.

I know you have me on ignore but I also know on forums you can click to show what they have said which I know you will do anyway :wink:

Celtic don't pay my wages or put food on my table and in the grand scheme of things this isn't going to affect my life all that much I'll still be working 9 to 5 struggling to get by, makes me wonder why I effing bother actually football doesn't do much for me these days. To suggest me posting in here is condescending is nonsense this is a topic that affects all of Scottish football many in here echo my thoughts, I'm just adding my two bobs worth into the discussion. My agenda goes no further than I like the rest of us payed good money to go and watch a game that was rigged in favour of one particular team, I feel cheated and so should you.

Hibs finished 3rd in the 00/01 season played well against us that season too and Rangers goal difference was one better than Hibs. Hibernian lost the same amount of games as the Dead club but drew more games. This was a Rangers team operating under its EBT scheme, did Hibs miss out on second place that year and along with it a Champions League qualifying round? Maybe. You should find that more galling than a fellow Scottish football fan posting here.

But by all means keep me on ignore and pass this scandal off as a Celtic Rangers thing but in my opinion your letting your personal feelings interfere towards what you call the old firm cloud your judgement in this case.

CropleyWasGod
07-07-2017, 07:26 PM
OK thanks for reminding me about that. It's amazing to think that was 10 years ago now.

However, it still seems hard to believe that this was kept under wraps, or certainly out of the public domain, from 2001 until 2007. Were all those benefiting from EBTs sworn to secrecy? Nobody said a word to anyone in footballing circles? Nobody knew?
The contributions to the Trusts would have been referred to in their accounts...but no-one would have commented because EBT's were "ok" at that time.

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Ozyhibby
07-07-2017, 07:28 PM
OK thanks for reminding me about that. It's amazing to think that was 10 years ago now.

However, it still seems hard to believe that this was kept under wraps, or certainly out of the public domain, from 2001 until 2007. Were all those benefiting from EBTs sworn to secrecy? Nobody said a word to anyone in footballing circles? Nobody knew?

Loads of people in the SFA knew. Campbell Ogilvie was at Hearts by then but was also on the board of the SFA. He signed off the first EBTs.
That why we are having to fight so hard for this to be re opened. I personally don't think they would care about stripping the titles if it were not for the exposure of their own positions that would come with it. It's no longer about protecting Rangers, I think they would happily throw them under the bus now. It's about protecting themselves.


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Super_JMcGinn
07-07-2017, 07:29 PM
This is nothing to do with the Old firm or a Celtic fan posting on here pushing support for action to be taken (which I'd agree is mildly annoying but that's not the point).

As far as I'm aware Celtic have never been found to have illegaly avoided paying tax for almost a decade on salaries worth close to £50 million. I'm shocked that any Hibs supporter would not want a suitable punishement to be dished out for such action.

A suitable punishment was delivered when they were demoted to the 2nd division, anything else only benefits their neighbours which I want nothing to do with.

I honestly couldn't care either way but anyone thinking and believing this is not driven by celtic is deluding themselves.

Pete
07-07-2017, 07:33 PM
A suitable punishment was delivered when they were demoted to the 2nd division

Uh-oh :greengrin

Since90+2
07-07-2017, 07:35 PM
A suitable punishment was delivered when they were demoted to the 2nd division, anything else only benefits their neighbours which I want nothing to do with.

I honestly couldn't care either way but anyone thinking and believing this is not driven by celtic is deluding themselves.

They were not demoted.The club seized to exist and a new club was admitted back into the league against the governing bodies own rules.

Hibernia&Alba
07-07-2017, 07:35 PM
'Demotion' wasn't a punishment for anything; it was a consequence of liquidation. The EBT issue is a different thing.

Pete
07-07-2017, 07:41 PM
They weren't "demoted" or "relegated".


They were "voted down".

Ozyhibby
07-07-2017, 07:43 PM
A suitable punishment was delivered when they were demoted to the 2nd division, anything else only benefits their neighbours which I want nothing to do with.

I honestly couldn't care either way but anyone thinking and believing this is not driven by celtic is deluding themselves.

It has the support of 90% of Hibs fans. You complain about people reducing Scottish football to a duopoly but here you are doing exactly that? This is not a Celtic-Rangers thing. Scottish football is about more than those two clubs and I don't see why you want to make it just about them?


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lapsedhibee
07-07-2017, 07:44 PM
they clearly used nefarious methods to field a team they otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford and that gave them an unfair advantage on the field. But having said that you cant say with utter certainty what the actual outcome would have been in each competition because even without cheating they would still have been competitive.

A few people have alluded to this point in the thread, but I'm not getting the relevance. Should Ben Johnson get his gold medal back if he argues convincingly that he might have won the 100m Olympic final even if he'd been clean? He was disqualified, runner up awarded the gold. Perfectly satisfactory outcome without any need to go into the hypotheticals of who might have won it if things had been different.

emerald green
07-07-2017, 07:45 PM
The contributions to the Trusts would have been referred to in their accounts...but no-one would have commented because EBT's were "ok" at that time.

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Technically, EBTs may have been "ok" at the time, but I'm just not understanding why no directors of any other Scottish clubs didn't ever think to at least query the Ibrox club's use of EBTs.

Maybe they did and this is something I'm unaware of.


Loads of people in the SFA knew. Campbell Ogilvie was at Hearts by then but was also on the board of the SFA. He signed off the first EBTs.
That why we are having to fight so hard for this to be re opened. I personally don't think they would care about stripping the titles if it were not for the exposure of their own positions that would come with it. It's no longer about protecting Rangers, I think they would happily throw them under the bus now. It's about protecting themselves.


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If loads of people at the SFA knew, it's beyond belief that directors at other Scottish clubs wouldn't have become aware of this at the time.

See also my comment above.

Super_JMcGinn
07-07-2017, 07:50 PM
It has the support of 90% of Hibs fans. You complain about people reducing Scottish football to a duopoly but here you are doing exactly that? This is not a Celtic-Rangers thing. Scottish football is about more than those two clubs and I don't see why you want to make it just about them?


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90% of Hibs fans on here you mean and even then who's to say they are all Hibs fans? I take it brother Michael had a vote.

Mr White
07-07-2017, 07:53 PM
90% of Hibs fans on here you mean and even then who's to say they are all Hibs fans? I take it brother Michael had a vote.

I doubt Michael's a mason gail :greengrin

Ozyhibby
07-07-2017, 08:03 PM
90% of Hibs fans on here you mean and even then who's to say they are all Hibs fans? I take it brother Michael had a vote.

I'm surprised it's only 90%. I haven't met any fans who don't think they cheated.
Do you think they cheated?


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Slavers
07-07-2017, 08:10 PM
Punish them to the maximum so that it serves as a warning to any future cheats. Take the titles of them!

Jack Hackett
07-07-2017, 08:12 PM
90% of Hibs fans on here you mean and even then who's to say they are all Hibs fans? I take it brother Michael had a vote.

What difference does it make who he supports? There's nothing to stop zombies from voting either.

The Scotsman are running a poll where 69% of 27,000 respondents are in favour of stripping the titles... take an educated guess as to how many of the 31% against it support The Rangers http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/rangers/poll-should-rangers-be-stripped-of-their-ebt-titles-1-4496550

SCOTTISH supporters want this because that rancid club DESERVE it. No responsibility, no shame. They should have died but wormed their way out of it. Branding them as cheats in the record book is the least that should happen to them. Sticking your head in the sand is a victory for corruption.

Super_JMcGinn
07-07-2017, 08:20 PM
I'm surprised it's only 90%. I haven't met any fans who don't think they cheated.
Do you think they cheated?


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I don't think they knowingly cheated but I'm clearly in the minority. I have said before I don't care either way what happens but good luck in cleansing Scottish football.

CropleyWasGod
07-07-2017, 08:21 PM
I don't think they knowingly cheated but I'm clearly in the minority. I have said before I don't care either way what happens but good luck in cleansing Scottish football.
Before Lapsedhibee gets in....[emoji14]

Side letters. Boom.

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Andy74
07-07-2017, 08:24 PM
Hearts up in arms over another clubs financial mismanagement shows a lack of self awareness on their part.

Indeed. Signing players in full knowledge of non payments of millions of pounds worth of bills.

If they want to hand back their Scottish Cup won then we can listen to what they have to say on the matter.

CropleyWasGod
07-07-2017, 08:30 PM
Technically, EBTs may have been "ok" at the time, but I'm just not understanding why no directors of any other Scottish clubs didn't ever think to at least query the Ibrox club's use of EBTs.

Maybe they did and this is something I'm unaware of.



If loads of people at the SFA knew, it's beyond belief that directors at other Scottish clubs wouldn't have become aware of this at the time.

See also my comment above.
Hindsight, as they say, is an amazing gift.

You have to put things in the context of the time. Not just in football, but throughout the corporate world, tax avoidance schemes were being heavily marketed. Many of those, not just EBT's, involved the use of "loans". It took HMRC a while to catch up with them...but, for many people, they were a legitimate tax-saving device. And...get this... there are still some loan-based schemes out there that are indeed legal. (The Jimmy Carr case springs to mind)

Against that background, you can understand why relatively few people would question EBT'S and the like. "They're for people richer than us" is a common reaction to tax-avoidance schemes.

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InchHibby
07-07-2017, 08:40 PM
It's been proven they cheated and it should be obvious to all that an advantage was gained and it doesn't take a genius to suss out that they knew they were gaining an advantage in signing players.
They should be thrown out the leagues, but we all know that won't happen, but the least that should happen is that any trophies gained during that period should be taken from them.
This is what happens in any other sport.

CropleyWasGod
07-07-2017, 08:43 PM
It's been proven they cheated and it should be obvious to all that an advantage was gained and it doesn't take a genius to suss out that they knew they were gaining an advantage in signing players.
They should be thrown out the leagues, but we all know that won't happen, but the least that should happen is that any trophies gained during that period should be taken from them.
This is what happens in any other sport.
To be thrown out the leagues, that would mean they were the same club. 😈

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ancient hibee
07-07-2017, 08:56 PM
It has the support of 90% of Hibs fans. You complain about people reducing Scottish football to a duopoly but here you are doing exactly that? This is not a Celtic-Rangers thing. Scottish football is about more than those two clubs and I don't see why you want to make it just about them?


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90 percent of Hibs fans?An interesting stat.but with no foundation in fact.

JK Rolling
07-07-2017, 09:04 PM
The Old Rangers FC have finally been found guilty of tax dodging by the Supreme Court.

They were previously found guilty of failing to disclose the EBT payments (and side letters that guaranteed them) to the SFA and fined £250000. However, nothing was done regarding the honours the club won while it was making the payments as at the time of the SFA's verdict, a First Tier Tax Tribunal had found the payments weren't liable to tax. Therefore the SFA maintained that no sporting advantage was gained because other clubs could have done the same thing.

Now the Supreme Court verdict is finally in, what should happen?


It doesn't really matter 'cause they'll be dead again soon.

Mr White
07-07-2017, 09:06 PM
It doesn't really matter 'cause they'll be dead again soon.

No way. Dave says this kind of over spending is sustainable. When he's says it won't damage the future of the club I believe him. After all he was on the board the last time overspending killed a club called Rangers so I reckon he knows what he's talking about :cb

Hibrandenburg
07-07-2017, 09:47 PM
They weren't "demoted" or "relegated".


They were "voted down".

They weren't demoted, relegated or voted down, they ceased to exist and then "the Rangers" were born and got preferential treatment by being fast tracked into the Scottish League ahead of other more worthy clubs.

Deansy
07-07-2017, 09:49 PM
Hearts fans stepping up the pressure on Budge and FoH to release a statement. Be good if we can beat them to it.


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They'll change their tune when the Hun start their 'Whatabootery' ! It's only natural the first team in their sights will be their tribute-act at the PBS as the only difference between the 2 clubs is 'Modus Operandi' - both cheated but in different ways.

Is It On....
07-07-2017, 09:55 PM
A suitable punishment was delivered when they were demoted to the 2nd division, anything else only benefits their neighbours which I want nothing to do with.

I honestly couldn't care either way but anyone thinking and believing this is not driven by celtic is deluding themselves.

I know it was a type-o but they were not demoted. They were liquidated and ceased to exist before a new entity, Sevco 2012, bought the assets and applied for membership of the Scottish League.

Pete
07-07-2017, 09:55 PM
They weren't demoted, relegated or voted down, they ceased to exist and then "the Rangers" were born and got preferential treatment by being fast tracked into the Scottish League ahead of other more worthy clubs.

I know, I was just kidding. :greengrin

It's was just another example of an incorrect term Rangers, and even the media, have used.

Hibrandenburg
07-07-2017, 09:58 PM
I know, I was just kidding. :greengrin

It's was just another example of an incorrect term Rangers, and even the media, have used.

"Just Kidding" is that the predecessor to "Fake News? :greengrin

Eyrie
07-07-2017, 10:23 PM
A few people have alluded to this point in the thread, but I'm not getting the relevance. Should Ben Johnson get his gold medal back if he argues convincingly that he might have won the 100m Olympic final even if he'd been clean? He was disqualified, runner up awarded the gold. Perfectly satisfactory outcome without any need to go into the hypotheticals of who might have won it if things had been different.

It's relevant to say that we don't know what the outcome of the league and cup competitions would have been if Huns RIP had competed legally because that is the reason why the trophies can't simply be awarded to the runners up. Due to that uncertainty the only possible outcome is to void those trophies.

It's certainly not an attempt to let Sevco continue to claim trophies won by Huns RIP.

CropleyWasGod
07-07-2017, 10:35 PM
It's relevant to say that we don't know what the outcome of the league and cup competitions would have been if Huns RIP had competed legally because that is the reason why the trophies can't simply be awarded to the runners up. Due to that uncertainty the only possible outcome is to void those trophies.

It's certainly not an attempt to let Sevco continue to claim trophies won by Huns RIP.
I'd agree with that.

Taking the cycling analogy that many have mentioned...when Floyd Landis "won" the TDF in 2006, he was subsequently disqualified for doping. The second-placed rider, Oscar Pereiro, was promoted to first.

However, the argument against that was that, as pro cycling is a team sport, it shouldn't have been assumed that OP would have won had FL not competed, or competed clean, or been kicked out after the relevant stage. IMO, that's why the Armstrong years have been "asterisked".

The Ben Johnson case is different, in that athletics is more of a solo sport. It's easier to just "shuffle up" the places.

RFC are closer to the cycling analogy than the athletics one, IMO.





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Captain Trips
07-07-2017, 10:49 PM
I vote that both Rangers clubs just **** right off

pacorosssco
07-07-2017, 11:37 PM
The SFA just wont do it. Will never happen.

lapsedhibee
08-07-2017, 06:19 AM
It's relevant to say that we don't know what the outcome of the league and cup competitions would have been if Huns RIP had competed legally because that is the reason why the trophies can't simply be awarded to the runners up. Due to that uncertainty the only possible outcome is to void those trophies.



Taking the cycling analogy that many have mentioned...when Floyd Landis "won" the TDF in 2006, he was subsequently disqualified for doping. The second-placed rider, Oscar Pereiro, was promoted to first.

However, the argument against that was that, as pro cycling is a team sport, it shouldn't have been assumed that OP would have won had FL not competed, or competed clean, or been kicked out after the relevant stage. IMO, that's why the Armstrong years have been "asterisked".

RFC are closer to the cycling analogy than the athletics one, IMO.


As far as the league goes, in 2005 Rangers finished with 93 points, Celtic were second with 92, and the third-placed team had 61. Are you both arguing that it's impossible to assess who should be awarded the league title that year if (say) Rangers' results are all voided?

Agreed the argument for awarding titles in cup competitions is muddier - but Ben Johnson going through a heat at someone else's expense is similar in principle to Rangers knocking someone out in an early round of the cup.

Cycling situation is more complicated than Ben Johnson's to the extent that if the team leader of a very strong team (say Sky) is disqualified early enough in the race the team will adopt a new leader and work for him, and the podium may well look different as a result of an early disqualification. But except in very rare one-off cases (coincidentally the final day of the 2005 season) fitba teams do not collude like the members of a cycling team (throughout a race) or indeed like (temporarily during a race) whole cycling teams.

Armstrong's Tour de France wins were not voided because of the way that cycling teams operate during races. They were not re-allocated because it was known that doping was systemic in the sport throughout Armstrong's reign.

McQuaid:
“The podium of those tours, second and third, by and large a lot of them either have been convicted of doping some way or another, or would be suspected in terms of doping,” he said. “If it’s a question that we would declare that era as a black era, then I’m not afraid to do so.”

It is not difficult to see their problem. For three of Armstrong’s Tour de France wins you would have to promote Jan Ullrich, who was retrospectively banned for drug offences by the CAS last year and stripped of all of his titles since 2005. In 2003, if you promoted Ullrich to winner that year, the next two riders on the podium would be drug cheats Alexandre Vinokourov and Tyler Hamilton.

There was no systemic abuse of dual contracts in Scottish fitba during the EBT years. There's imo no good reason other than general anti-OF sentiment (which I do count as good, though not a reason) for withholding the 2005 league title from Celtc. If, however, Celtc argue that they do not want it under the circumstances, then void it.

Pretty Boy
08-07-2017, 06:50 AM
If the poll results in a vote in favour of stripping the titles, would the admins consider releasing a statement from Hibs.net similar to those released by Aberdeen and Dundee Utd fans?

Personally speaking I don't think we should.

We moderate the forum to make sure what is posted remains within the rules. That is basically the remit we have, along with the housekeeping that keeps the lights on. I don't think we have any mandate to speak on the sites users behalf. We are always keen to stress Hibs.net has no 'editorial policy' and releasing a statement about something not directly related to the site speaking on behalf of it's users goes against that.

My personal belief is that every title should be stripped and the champions for the year declared as vacant or void or similar.

Onion
08-07-2017, 07:00 AM
Can you just imagine the reaction of Sevco, the SFA and the WC media today if Hibs or Aberdeen found an illegal method of raising huge amounts of cash, recruited players way beyond their usual level and won a chunk of trophies and Euro money - denying Sevco and their fans in the process ? There would be an outcry and demand for the harshest of punishments - and rightly so.

The SFA / SPFL, Sevco and media seem to think there's some kind of a statute or limitations on ill-gotten gains. "Get away with it long enough and the proceeds are your's" !

I've no issue with Sevco hanging onto all the titles won by the departed Rangers FC, as long as they pay back every single penny of the £45 Million that Old Co have now been deemed to owe the tax payers. Failing that, Sevco has no right to the titles won in the tax-cheating years.

CropleyWasGod
08-07-2017, 07:13 AM
As far as the league goes, in 2005 Rangers finished with 93 points, Celtic were second with 92, and the third-placed team had 61. Are you both arguing that it's impossible to assess who should be awarded the league title that year if (say) Rangers' results are all voided?

Agreed the argument for awarding titles in cup competitions is muddier - but Ben Johnson going through a heat at someone else's expense is similar in principle to Rangers knocking someone out in an early round of the cup.

Cycling situation is more complicated than Ben Johnson's to the extent that if the team leader of a very strong team (say Sky) is disqualified early enough in the race the team will adopt a new leader and work for him, and the podium may well look different as a result of an early disqualification. But except in very rare one-off cases (coincidentally the final day of the 2005 season) fitba teams do not collude like the members of a cycling team (throughout a race) or indeed like (temporarily during a race) whole cycling teams.

Armstrong's Tour de France wins were not voided because of the way that cycling teams operate during races. They were not re-allocated because it was known that doping was systemic in the sport throughout Armstrong's reign.

McQuaid:
“The podium of those tours, second and third, by and large a lot of them either have been convicted of doping some way or another, or would be suspected in terms of doping,” he said. “If it’s a question that we would declare that era as a black era, then I’m not afraid to do so.”

It is not difficult to see their problem. For three of Armstrong’s Tour de France wins you would have to promote Jan Ullrich, who was retrospectively banned for drug offences by the CAS last year and stripped of all of his titles since 2005. In 2003, if you promoted Ullrich to winner that year, the next two riders on the podium would be drug cheats Alexandre Vinokourov and Tyler Hamilton.

There was no systemic abuse of dual contracts in Scottish fitba during the EBT years. There's imo no good reason other than general anti-OF sentiment (which I do count as good, though not a reason) for withholding the 2005 league title from Celtc. If, however, Celtc argue that they do not want it under the circumstances, then void it.
All fair points, but I think the issue goes beyond just "who should have won?" It also begs the question "who should have come second, third etc?". I don't think that we could assume a shuffling-up of places. At the very least, there would have to be a recalculation of placings based on a removal of the RFC games...or a 3-0 win...or....or...or.





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blackpoolhibs
08-07-2017, 07:23 AM
The SFA just wont do it. Will never happen.

Exactly, and they will never be liquidated or made to join as a new club at the bottom tier either.:rolleyes:


Its attitudes like that, that they and the SFA want so they can just sweep it all under the carpet.

I'm glad there are folk with more heart and principles than you, who will take the time and effort to try and force through justice for all those fans who paid through either season tickets or pay at the gate prices to watch their team play against a team who were steroided up the the neck, and cheated their way to trophies they didnt deserve, and certainly don't deserve to keep.

Ozyhibby
08-07-2017, 07:29 AM
Personally speaking I don't think we should.

We moderate the forum to make sure what is posted remains within the rules. That is basically the remit we have, along with the housekeeping that keeps the lights on. I don't think we have any mandate to speak on the sites users behalf. We are always keen to stress Hibs.net has no 'editorial policy' and releasing a statement about something not directly related to the site speaking on behalf of it's users goes against that.

My personal belief is that every title should be stripped and the champions for the year declared as vacant or void or similar.

No worries. I was aware that Hibs.net had never really done anything like that before. Will try contact the fans reps although I haven't spotted them on here since the election.


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Keith_M
08-07-2017, 07:31 AM
90% of Hibs fans on here you mean and even then who's to say they are all Hibs fans? I take it brother Michael had a vote.


I doubt Michael's a mason gail :greengrin


Ah, so it's the (in)famous Gail under a new name.

That makes a lot of sense, cheers.


What would he/she know about the views of Hibs Fans.

blackpoolhibs
08-07-2017, 07:32 AM
Someone posted yesterday about the time we finished third, a few points behind rangers. Who's to say if we'd finished 2nd and taken the money it results in, and played in the champions league qualifiers, it could have made us enough money to have made us a team much better we'd have been consistent challengers for a European place?

Maybe even enough to stop us being relegated?

MKHIBEE
08-07-2017, 07:36 AM
The titles should be left vacant. If The Rangers insist they are the same club they should be made to pay back every penny of prize money they were given. With interest. Immediately.

Spike Mandela
08-07-2017, 07:39 AM
I think so much time has passed that awarding of titles or cups to other clubs is hollow and worthless.

I prefer the *asterisk approach. All titles and cups voided in the history books with acknowledgement from the authorities that these years were tainted by large scale tax evasion and improperly registered players by Rangers Football Club.

CropleyWasGod
08-07-2017, 07:39 AM
Someone posted yesterday about the time we finished third, a few points behind rangers. Who's to say if we'd finished 2nd and taken the money it results in, and played in the champions league qualifiers, it could have made us enough money to have made us a team much better we'd have been consistent challengers for a European place?

Maybe even enough to stop us being relegated?
That's when the worms start to come out of the can.

We would have a moral right to take action against someone. IIRC, we aren't allowed to sue the league. Even if we could, we would effectively suing ourselves. So would we sue the Oldco and end up getting 5p in the £? Or is that a football debt that should be paid first?

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blackpoolhibs
08-07-2017, 07:44 AM
The titles should be left vacant. If The Rangers insist they are the same club they should be made to pay back every penny of prize money they were given. With interest. Immediately.

Never understood that argument, if i robbed a bank and was caught, i wouldn't expect to get off with it if i paid the money back.

lapsedhibee
08-07-2017, 07:55 AM
All fair points, but I think the issue goes beyond just "who should have won?" It also begs the question "who should have come second, third etc?". I don't think that we could assume a shuffling-up of places. At the very least, there would have to be a recalculation of placings based on a removal of the RFC games...or a 3-0 win...or....or...or.

Don't think there's that many or ... or ... or ... s. Unless my maths/logic is severely skew-whiff, removing RFC games or counting them as 3-0 defeats would produce exactly the same outcome as far as a new league table is concerned. Do either and I don't see what would be unfair about it. Hibs might not be able to successfully argue in a court that oldhun is due us £blablabla for denying us a shot at winning the CL in 2005-2006, but giving the title to Celtc wouldn't be a thing that prevents that argument succeeding.

CropleyWasGod
08-07-2017, 08:05 AM
Don't think there's that many or ... or ... or ... s. Unless my maths/logic is severely skew-whiff, removing RFC games or counting them as 3-0 defeats would produce exactly the same outcome as far as a new league table is concerned. Do either and I don't see what would be unfair about it. Hibs might not be able to successfully argue in a court that oldhun is due us £blablabla for denying us a shot at winning the CL in 2005-2006, but giving the title to Celtc wouldn't be a thing that prevents that argument succeeding.
Haven't checked the results obviously, but a club that had previously "lost" 4 times to Rangers would gain 12 points. That might take them above another club who had already beaten them once, and who therefore only gain 9 points

And then theres the issue of the split. A club that finished 7th, ...how would we calculate their results post-split? And would those recalculations affect relegation?

And then there's the issue of RFC's notional relegation because they should finish bottom.

[emoji14] go on.... There's no game today...

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Ozyhibby
08-07-2017, 08:42 AM
Haven't checked the results obviously, but a club that had previously "lost" 4 times to Rangers would gain 12 points. That might take them above another club who had already beaten them once, and who therefore only gain 9 points

And then theres the issue of the split. A club that finished 7th, ...how would we calculate their results post-split? And would those recalculations affect relegation?

And then there's the issue of RFC's notional relegation because they should finish bottom.

[emoji14] go on.... There's no game today...

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It was not an EBT year but the year we finished 3rd behind Rangers and Motherwell would have resulted in us winning the league if all Rangers results had to be awarded as 3-0 to opponents.
I'm in favour of voiding the leagues during the EBT years.


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ancient hibee
08-07-2017, 08:48 AM
Haven't checked the results obviously, but a club that had previously "lost" 4 times to Rangers would gain 12 points. That might take them above another club who had already beaten them once, and who therefore only gain 9 points

And then theres the issue of the split. A club that finished 7th, ...how would we calculate their results post-split? And would those recalculations affect relegation?

And then there's the issue of RFC's notional relegation because they should finish bottom.

[emoji14] go on.... There's no game today...

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Don't try and teach arithmetic on here.You're on a loser.

GreenArmyyy!
08-07-2017, 08:57 AM
No worries. I was aware that Hibs.net had never really done anything like that before. Will try contact the fans reps although I haven't spotted them on here since the election.


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Tracey especially has spent alot of time in the forums since the election.

CropleyWasGod
08-07-2017, 09:30 AM
Don't try and teach arithmetic on here.You're on a loser.
Hey...I'm an accountant to trade. I can make any 2 numbers add to anything you want [emoji1]

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Ozyhibby
08-07-2017, 09:32 AM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170708/c6084856b3d72452c72360b1a8057d6e.jpg
Graham Spiers in the Times this morning.


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Bristolhibby
08-07-2017, 10:50 AM
I think so much time has passed that awarding of titles or cups to other clubs is hollow and worthless.

I prefer the *asterisk approach. All titles and cups voided in the history books with acknowledgement from the authorities that these years were tainted by large scale tax evasion and improperly registered players by Rangers Football Club.

This. Including (and it's a real shame to the gorgeous old lady), but engraving over the word "Rangers" on the Scottish Cup plinth for those years.

It makes a statement.

J

Kojock
08-07-2017, 11:09 AM
Does anyone else see the irony here. A club that has as its focal point the queen and all things British devises a scheme to avoid paying tax to that institution. Much needed tax that could have funded our HM Forces, health service and education. You couldn't make it up. Don't care about stripping titles except for the knighthood awarded to that charlatan David Murray.

Bostonhibby
08-07-2017, 11:26 AM
Does anyone else see the irony here. A club that has as its focal point the queen and all things British devises a scheme to avoid paying tax to that institution. Much needed tax that could have funded our HM Forces, health service and education. You couldn't make it up. Don't care about stripping titles except for the knighthood awarded to that charlatan David Murray.
Irony indeed.

But they made up for it when they had the armed forces on the pitch at one of their bigot fests a few years ago didn't they?!

Sadly a few of them seemed to enjoy being there.

"Loyal" my erse. Cheated their majesties revenue exactly as you describe.

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MKHIBEE
08-07-2017, 11:27 AM
Never understood that argument, if i robbed a bank and was caught, i wouldn't expect to get off with it if i paid the money back.

Do you think that leaving the titles vacant is allowing Oldco to "get off" ? I would happily make the present regime responsible for any wrongdoings of the Oldco, even up.to hammering them for failing to save me from a beating from grown men at Ibrox over 40 years ago.( I was 15)

heretoday
08-07-2017, 11:30 AM
Doesn't bother me really. Lost interest in the Rangers saga a long time ago and the eyes glaze over when the subject raises it's head. Has no bearing on us really.

Too right. Put asterisks in the record books against each one of their dubious title wins and let's get on with next season.
The game in Scotland is in a bad enough way without further disembowelment.

The Falcon
08-07-2017, 11:32 AM
Does anyone else see the irony here. A club that has as its focal point the queen and all things British devises a scheme to avoid paying tax to that institution. Much needed tax that could have funded our HM Forces, health service and education. You couldn't make it up. Don't care about stripping titles except for the knighthood awarded to that charlatan David Murray.

Or the fact that Sickbag is calling them cheats.....

Ozyhibby
08-07-2017, 11:45 AM
http://club1872.co.uk/news/club-1872-statement-on-big-tax-case-verdict/#.WWDCL0FhquU.twitter


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oldbutdim
08-07-2017, 11:52 AM
http://club1872.co.uk/news/club-1872-statement-on-big-tax-case-verdict/#.WWDCL0FhquU.twitter


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Blimey!

Velma Dinkley
08-07-2017, 11:57 AM
http://club1872.co.uk/news/club-1872-statement-on-big-tax-case-verdict/#.WWDCL0FhquU.twitter


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The The Rangers fans are allergic to reality.

blackpoolhibs
08-07-2017, 12:00 PM
Do you think that leaving the titles vacant is allowing Oldco to "get off" ? I would happily make the present regime responsible for any wrongdoings of the Oldco, even up.to hammering them for failing to save me from a beating from grown men at Ibrox over 40 years ago.( I was 15)

It's not really about anyone getting off, it's about justice, and justice is cheats ANY cheat should have whatever they have won while cheating stripped from the record books.

Doing nothing is just condoning it, i'm not bothered either if the titles are stripped that the teams who finished behind them get the titles.

That is too hard to judge, and an asterisk against the year and a reason for no winner would suffice.

Justice will have been served if that happened, anything less is not justice.

MKHIBEE
08-07-2017, 12:17 PM
It's not really about anyone getting off, it's about justice, and justice is cheats ANY cheat should have whatever they have won while cheating stripped from the record books.

Doing nothing is just condoning it, i'm not bothered either if the titles are stripped that the teams who finished behind them get the titles.

That is too hard to judge, and an asterisk against the year and a reason for no winner would suffice.

Justice will have been served if that happened, anything less is not justice.

Thats fair enough, maybe my understanding of leaving the titles vacant was vague. I hadn't intended to call for nothing to be done, just that no recognition should be given to the title winners in question.

Ozyhibby
08-07-2017, 12:50 PM
The poll at the top of the thread is still showing a whopping 89% in favour of stripping the titles.
Hibs fans firmly behind justice it would appear.


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lapsedhibee
08-07-2017, 01:06 PM
Haven't checked the results obviously, but a club that had previously "lost" 4 times to Rangers would gain 12 points. That might take them above another club who had already beaten them once, and who therefore only gain 9 points.
Indeed. Would that matter too much? You may say that the team who'd beaten Rangers once would now be 'punished' for having beaten them, but no actual real-world damage would be done to that team by the recalculation.


And then theres the issue of the split. A club that finished 7th, ...how would we calculate their results post-split?

We wouldn't particularly want to, would we?

And would those recalculations affect relegation?
Who was or who might have been relegated isn't an issue imo. That unfairness, if any, is unrightable. No team is going to be unrelegated now. The only manageable issue, imo, is what should now appear in the record books against winners (or against winners and runners-up): (1) asterisk or (b) other podium team


And then there's the issue of RFC's notional relegation because they should finish bottom.

Having an asterisk instead of "Celtc" in the record books doesn't solve that sort of hypothetical issue.

Rewriting of history is never straightforward (unless you're a yam and you rewrite it so that your club was an entirely innocent victim of a scurrilous Lithuanian) but denying runners-up the option of being declared champions for the technical reasons put forward so far seems unduly mean to me. Especially in 2005, where we deliberately colluded with Rangers to prevent Celtc from winning the title!

connerg
08-07-2017, 01:23 PM
Does anyone else see the irony here. A club that has as its focal point the queen and all things British devises a scheme to avoid paying tax to that institution. Much needed tax that could have funded our HM Forces, health service and education. You couldn't make it up. Don't care about stripping titles except for the knighthood awarded to that charlatan David Murray.

Their arrogance has no limits. They thought and still do claim to be part of the British establishment. Expecting HMRC to look the other way.

connerg
08-07-2017, 01:37 PM
Especially in 2005, where we deliberately colluded with Rangers to prevent Celtc from winning the title!

Hibs priority that day was to qualify for Europe. We did, i don't see it as preventing Celtic or any other team in that position (unlikely, i know) from winning the League.

cabbageandribs1875
08-07-2017, 01:58 PM
Ah, so it's the (in)famous Gail under a new name.

That makes a lot of sense, cheers.


What would he/she know about the views of Hibs Fans.



yup it is indeed 'GAIL', although i did suspect after her/his first defence of all things to do with the hunnery and we should all leave poor sevco alone, wish she/he would stop changing usernames :(

Posh Hibby
08-07-2017, 02:17 PM
Not sure if this has already been posted or not, but there is a petition to strip (the now defunct) Rangers F.C of the 14 trophies they won whilst cheating.

Sign it if you think this should happen. Fans need to make their voices heard.

https://www.change.org/p/spfl-rangers-fc-to-be-stripped-of-14-league-titles?recruiter=149764020&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_term=autopublish

Hibernia&Alba
08-07-2017, 03:14 PM
Not sure if this has already been posted or not, but there is a petition to strip (the now defunct) Rangers F.C of the 14 trophies they won whilst cheating.

Sign it if you think this should happen. Fans need to make their voices heard.

https://www.change.org/p/spfl-rangers-fc-to-be-stripped-of-14-league-titles?recruiter=149764020&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_term=autopublish

Signed!

Captain Trips
08-07-2017, 03:20 PM
You have to hand it to that institution. The first club were a disgrace prior to any EBT. The latest incarnation is just a horrible club.

2 clubs 1 disgrace.

oneone73
08-07-2017, 03:30 PM
Signed!

Me too

Kato
08-07-2017, 04:15 PM
One cultural aspect emerging in Scottish football through all this shows that the Italians are far more comfortable facing up to their corruption, meanwhile the SFA and all those associated with The Rangers strut around po-faced, in denial and seem to have broom handles firmly lodged in their backsides.

Velma Dinkley
08-07-2017, 04:23 PM
One cultural aspect emerging in Scottish football through all this shows that the Italians are far more comfortable facing up to their corruption, meanwhile the SFA and all those associated with The Rangers strut around po-faced, in denial and seem to have broom handles firmly lodged in their backsides.

I think that's what annoys people the most. Talk of ensuring everyone plays by the rules in future is pointless if certain people can't even bring themselves to admit that rangers didn't just cheat, but broke the law, for more than a decade. Voiding their trophies shouldn't even be seen as a punishment. It should just happen as a matter of course.

ancient hibee
08-07-2017, 04:39 PM
One cultural aspect emerging in Scottish football through all this shows that the Italians are far more comfortable facing up to their corruption, meanwhile the SFA and all those associated with The Rangers strut around po-faced, in denial and seem to have broom handles firmly lodged in their backsides.

Broom handles? Is that something you have to endure when you join the funny handshake mob?

Kato
08-07-2017, 04:44 PM
Broom handles? Is that something you have to endure when you join the funny handshake mob?

I used it as a figure of speech, but I suppose......

cabbageandribs1875
08-07-2017, 07:26 PM
Not sure if this has already been posted or not, but there is a petition to strip (the now defunct) Rangers F.C of the 14 trophies they won whilst cheating.

Sign it if you think this should happen. Fans need to make their voices heard.

https://www.change.org/p/spfl-rangers-fc-to-be-stripped-of-14-league-titles?recruiter=149764020&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_term=autopublish





signed





14 times, one for each theft

kaimendhibs
08-07-2017, 07:36 PM
Strip the titles. Horrible despicable cheating runt of the litter club.

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Deansy
08-07-2017, 09:41 PM
Not sure if this has already been posted or not, but there is a petition to strip (the now defunct) Rangers F.C of the 14 trophies they won whilst cheating.

Sign it if you think this should happen. Fans need to make their voices heard.

https://www.change.org/p/spfl-rangers-fc-to-be-stripped-of-14-league-titles?recruiter=149764020&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_term=autopublish

Not too sure if it has as I've signed so many - but just in case I'll sign, whether it be for the 1st or the 101st time it makes no difference, can't be too careful .....................

lapsedhibee
08-07-2017, 09:51 PM
Not sure if this has already been posted or not, but there is a petition to strip (the now defunct) Rangers F.C of the 14 trophies they won whilst cheating.

Sign it if you think this should happen. Fans need to make their voices heard.

https://www.change.org/p/spfl-rangers-fc-to-be-stripped-of-14-league-titles?recruiter=149764020&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_term=autopublish

Haven't signed this one as don't agree with the statement "14 trophies were won by Rangers during this period, which amounts to no more than financial doping."

Imo it amounts to nothing less than financial doping.

Standards eh.

Bostonhibby
08-07-2017, 09:56 PM
Could they be kicked out the league and join the norn irn league as well please?

Scottish based huns won't mind doing the trip that the Belfast lot currently do every week and they might even be able to do a bit of guard duty at the wall.

Everyone's a winner

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majorhibs
08-07-2017, 11:14 PM
They weren't "demoted" or "relegated".


They were "voted down".

No goin any further before chucklin while pete & his zombie buddie cont. out theirselves. Dedication, lads, but tae the maist odious excuse for a fitba team Scotland has ever had tae put up wi. Sorry, but imo, you Hun sympathisers need tae bolt.

Ozyhibby
09-07-2017, 12:37 AM
http://twohundredpercent.net/rangers-tax-case-now-forever/


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connerg
09-07-2017, 01:36 AM
Could they be kicked out the league and join the norn irn league as well please?

Scottish based huns won't mind doing the trip that the Belfast lot currently do every week and they might even be able to do a bit of guard duty at the wall.

Everyone's a winner

Sent from my SM-J320FN using Tapatalk

At last somebody has said what i've been thinking for years. Thank you.

Take Celtic too. Put them in Dublin, that's where they really want to be!

Jim Herriot
09-07-2017, 02:10 AM
We should just change the trophy.

18877

pacorosssco
09-07-2017, 02:37 AM
http://twohundredpercent.net/rangers-tax-case-now-forever/


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Yes facts are laid hunbear. Those Lords who let Murray away with did only to protect their own compliticey. Murray should be in jail for fraud. SFA will never go against lodge orders. We are the people:(

Bostonhibby
09-07-2017, 12:09 PM
Related to a hun who isn't really that bothered about them these days, he takes his daughters to ER to avoid the "atmosphere" at ibrox.

He made a good point that the authorities will take no real action as riding out the small storm,that will die away, from all the other fans is a less intimidating option than having the polarised Peepul mounting a vicious campaign against them.

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grunt
09-07-2017, 02:36 PM
I know there are many Scottish football fans who don't like this guy.

https://philmacgiollabhain.ie/2017/07/09/why-cheating-must-be-punished-if-sport-is-to-survive/

HoboHarry
09-07-2017, 02:40 PM
Personally speaking I don't think we should.

We moderate the forum to make sure what is posted remains within the rules. That is basically the remit we have, along with the housekeeping that keeps the lights on. I don't think we have any mandate to speak on the sites users behalf. We are always keen to stress Hibs.net has no 'editorial policy' and releasing a statement about something not directly related to the site speaking on behalf of it's users goes against that.

My personal belief is that every title should be stripped and the champions for the year declared as vacant or void or similar.
With respect I disagree. I'm never openly critical of Hibs but on this matter our silence has been deafening. Every club in Scotland (as well as their fan forums) who elect to say nothing are in dereliction of their duty to the game as a whole - this was cheating on an industrial scale and if we elect to remain silent then we don't have the right to say a damn word in the future at further transgressions by that appalling club.

I would be happy to write a statement (though it would be much later today) and send it to you and you can choose to issue it or not if you want me to.

lapsedhibee
09-07-2017, 03:25 PM
I know there are many Scottish football fans who don't like this guy.

https://philmacgiollabhain.ie/2017/07/09/why-cheating-must-be-punished-if-sport-is-to-survive/

Not much there to disagree with. Find it strange though that someone who fancies himself as a wordsmith appears not to know the difference between credulity and incredulity.

Standards eh.

grunt
09-07-2017, 03:41 PM
Find it strange though that someone who fancies himself as a wordsmith appears not to know the difference between credulity and incredulity.

Standards eh.I think his writing is dreadful. But I agree with him today.

The Modfather
09-07-2017, 03:45 PM
Any word from Hibs yet? Or from either of the fans reps? Really hope we don't remain silent on this and wait for it to die down.

Ozyhibby
09-07-2017, 04:00 PM
With respect I disagree. I'm never openly critical of Hibs but on this matter our silence has been deafening. Every club in Scotland (as well as their fan forums) who elect to say nothing are in dereliction of their duty to the game as a whole - this was cheating on an industrial scale and if we elect to remain silent then we don't have the right to say a damn word in the future at further transgressions by that appalling club.

I would be happy to write a statement (though it would be much later today) and send it to you and you can choose to issue it or not if you want me to.

We could have an unofficial non editorial statement from the Hibs.net users association (I've just formed it[emoji23] everybodys welcome).
If you write up a statement then post it so that we can vote on it.


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Ozyhibby
09-07-2017, 04:01 PM
Any word from Hibs yet? Or from either of the fans reps? Really hope we don't remain silent on this and wait for it to die down.

I was hopeful that they might post on this thread but silencio.


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grunt
09-07-2017, 04:03 PM
Really hope we don't ... wait for it to die down.:greengrin

majorhibs
09-07-2017, 04:31 PM
Do you think that leaving the titles vacant is allowing Oldco to "get off" ? I would happily make the present regime responsible for any wrongdoings of the Oldco, even up.to hammering them for failing to save me from a beating from grown men at Ibrox over 40 years ago.( I was 15)

Top ye on that, 4 adult huns surrounded me at top of Leith st & proceeded to hit me in the face, spinning me round so they all could have shots, till I went down with a dislocated nose in a very large pool of blood. I was a small 14 at the time, but wearing a Hibs scarf at midday in Edinburgh probably meant I deserved it. I had a few lickings at ipox in schooldays too, but as the aulder, pension aged Hibbies used to say in those days "these huns are nothing better than animals" & that was the moderate comments! They were despicable then. Absolutely despicable. Beat up anyone in green & white. Nowadays they want to be like they were before. huns!

emerald green
09-07-2017, 05:12 PM
Here's a list of some notable Ibrox names who might possibly face a large tax bill.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/rangers/big-tax-case-former-rangers-stars-who-could-face-huge-tax-bill-1-4496731

Would Rangers (as was) really have been able to afford to sign and pay wages to all of these players had they not used EBTs?

21.05.2016
09-07-2017, 05:20 PM
They cheated. Pure and simple. Strip the titles and any other trophies they acquired during the cheating years. Rangers don't want to accept the debts or the seedy history from oldco but are more than happy to accept the titles. They can't have it both ways.

Time for fans from all clubs to unite together against this.