Who should we let in

[lord bunberry]

Anyone watching this on bbc2 right now. It's clear that the immigration issues we have at the moment aren't any different from any other period in this countries history.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Anyone watching this on bbc2 right now. It's clear that the immigration issues we have at the moment aren't any different from any other period in this countries history.

I was watching it - yeah, nothing new under the sun eh.

What struck me though was how keen the victorians were on immigration. My cynical side thinks maybe the Victorians likedan endless supply of cheap labour to power the industrial revolution.

Its kinda depressing really, how cyclical it all seems.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Immigrants have been blamed from time immemorial, when things go wrong. When things are good there isn't a problem, but when the economy hits the rocks, immigrants are the easy target. Before the Europeans e.g. Poles, it was the Asians; before them the West Indians; before them the Irish; before the them the Jews etc etc. It's easy to bully the 'other', the minority. The truth is immigration is as old as modern travel, and we wouldn't have our canals, railways, roads, docks etc without it.

As for who we let in, I would incentivise Scandinavian women under forty to enjoy the British way of life :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

Anyone watching this on bbc2 right now. It's clear that the immigration issues we have at the moment aren't any different from any other period in this countries history.

Yep, in my lifetime it's been the Irish, Caribbeans, Pakistanis, Indians, Polish and umpteen other groups of migrants who were ruining the country, all I've noticed is we've become a bit more colourful and the food is light years ahead of what it used to be.

[lord bunberry]

I was watching it - yeah, nothing new under the sun eh.

What struck me though was how keen the victorians were on immigration. My cynical side thinks maybe the Victorians likedan endless supply of cheap labour to power the industrial revolution.

Its kinda depressing really, how cyclical it all seems.
It is a bit depressing. There's an Indian guy on now saying we should be stopping Eastern European people coming here, despite the fact that he did exactly the same thing years ago. He voted for ukip.
Ive always been for open borders and I doubt that will change.

[Hibrandenburg]

Immigrants have been blamed from time immemorial, when things go wrong. When things are good there isn't a problem, but when the economy hits the rocks, immigrants are the easy target. Before the Europeans e.g. Poles, it was the Asians; before them the West Indians; before them the Irish; before the them the Jews etc etc. It's easy to bully the 'other', the minority. The truth is immigration is as old as modern travel, and we wouldn't have our canals, railways, roads, docks etc without it.

:greengrin Beat me to it.

[lord bunberry]

Yep, in my lifetime it's been the Irish, Caribbeans, Pakistanis, Indians, Polish and umpteen other groups of migrants who were ruining the country, all I've noticed is we've become a bit more colourful and the food is light years ahead of what it used to be.
I couldn't agree more on the food side. My grandmother was Greek and I grew up eating a huge amount of Greek food. I still love it now and try and cook it myself whenever possible, with varying amounts of success :greengrin.

[steakbake]

We are a migratory species. It's the nature of the world. If we weren't, we'd all still be living in Ethiopia.

[lord bunberry]

We are a migratory species. It's the nature of the world. If we weren't, we'd all still be living in Ethiopia.
I'd still be in a cave saying "it's alright in here" Thank god for people who move on and bring new cultures to new countries.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

We are a migratory species. It's the nature of the world. If we weren't, we'd all still be living in Ethiopia.

True, but we are also a tribal and greedy species.

Govts / us cant habe it both ways. They cant create, maintain us in countries, many of which are founded on ethnicity (both real and imagined) and ramp it up when iy suits, only to then expect the population to turn it off too when it suits them.

I used to be quite avid about my scots identity, but i find myself caring less and less about it as i get older. Amd if someone wants to come here to better themselves, who the **** am i to say they shouldn't, amd why shpuld i even care.

Also totally agree about the food. It may seem quite trivial, bit actually has been quite central to many immigrant groups- italian chippies, indian/pakistani curries, turkish kebabs.and has probably gone a long way to helping integration.

I onve wrote an essay at uni on the effects of mass irish immigration on scottish society, amd i used the wonderful story of Hibernian FC as a metaphor for irish integration - got a good mark too from what i remember!

[Hibrandenburg]

I'd still be in a cave saying "it's alright in here" Thank god for people who move on and bring new cultures to new countries.

:agree:

[Just Alf]

True, but we are also a tribal and greedy species.

Govts / us cant habe it both ways. They cant create, maintain us in countries, many of which are founded on ethnicity (both real and imagined) and ramp it up when iy suits, only to then expect the population to turn it off too when it suits them.

I used to be quite avid about my scots identity, but i find myself caring less and less about it as i get older. Amd if someone wants to come here to better themselves, who the **** am i to say they shouldn't, amd why shpuld i even care.

Also totally agree about the food. It may seem quite trivial, bit actually has been quite central to many immigrant groups- italian chippies, indian/pakistani curries, turkish kebabs.and has probably gone a long way to helping integration.

I onve wrote an essay at uni on the effects of mass irish immigration on scottish society, amd i used the wonderful story of Hibernian FC as a metaphor for irish integration - got a good mark too from what i remember!
Well done on the essay.... An excellent idea! :agree:

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[easty]

I usually enjoy Stewart Lee's take on things, this is pretty good from a few years ago


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKEsyIuTrO8

[High-On-Hibs]

As for who we let in, I would incentivise Scandinavian women under forty to enjoy the British way of life :greengrin

Under 30. Got to keep the immigration numbers down. :cool2:

[High-On-Hibs]

True, but we are also a tribal and greedy species.

Are we? Or have we just been naturally conditioned that way under our own system of economics?

[lapsedhibee]

The truth is immigration is as old as modern travel, and we wouldn't have our canals, railways, roads, docks etc without it.

Doesn't really follow that because immigrants built these things they wouldn't have been built without immigration. Bit like claiming we'd have scored >20 fewer goals last season if we hadn't had Jason Cummings; or that we'll score >20 fewer goals this coming season because he's left.

I guess they would have been built later, more slowly, more expensively and with less loss of life in their construction.
Incidentally, do you count The Romans as immigrants?

[lapsedhibee]

I usually enjoy Stewart Lee's take on things, this is pretty good from a few years ago


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKEsyIuTrO8

Brilliant.

[Slavers]

We are a migratory species. It's the nature of the world. If we weren't, we'd all still be living in Ethiopia.

Except 'we' didn't originate from Ethiopia.

[Don Giovanni]

It is a bit depressing. There's an Indian guy on now saying we should be stopping Eastern European people coming here, despite the fact that he did exactly the same thing years ago. He voted for ukip.
Ive always been for open borders and I doubt that will change.

Deary me.

He might want to take heed of this before voting for voting for right wing xenophobes again:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

[Slavers]

I think a sensible points based immigration system would be best suited to the UK.

Open borders is a great idea for the ideological driven people but in reality it allows both good people free movement but also the criminals and people who have no intention of working for a living.

[JeMeSouviens]

Except 'we' didn't originate from Ethiopia.

What species are you then?

[High-On-Hibs]

I think a sensible points based immigration system would be best suited to the UK.

Open borders is a great idea for the ideological driven people but in reality it allows both good people free movement but also the criminals and people who have no intention of working for a living.

Not having open borders also helps to keep criminals and those who have "no intention of working for a living" in the country. You know.... mainly British people.

[JeMeSouviens]

It is a bit depressing. There's an Indian guy on now saying we should be stopping Eastern European people coming here, despite the fact that he did exactly the same thing years ago. He voted for ukip.
Ive always been for open borders and I doubt that will change.

But also uplifting - for every Katie Hopkins type ********, there's been an Ian Hislop type sound gadgie.

[Slavers]

Not having open borders also helps to keep criminals and those who have "no intention of working for a living" in the country. You know.... mainly British people.

That really doesn't make much sense. So you want to add more of these kinds of people into the mix?

[High-On-Hibs]

That really doesn't make much sense. So you want to add more of these kinds of people into the mix?

But as you say, there are also good people who move around and if we take in more good than bad, then it's surely worth it, no? Somebodies got to do the jobs that the British white working class are too superior to do.

[Slavers]

But as you say, there are also good people who move around and if we take in more good than bad, then it's surely worth it, no? Somebodies got to do the jobs that the British white working class are too superior to do.

No it's not worth it when the situation can be avoided.

Surely points based system that allows us to control who is coming in means less criminals are allowed in the country but allows more people in the UK who want to contribute?

[beensaidbefore]

But as you say, there are also good people who move around and if we take in more good than bad, then it's surely worth it, no? Somebodies got to do the jobs that the British white working class are too superior to do.

But it doesnt have to be one or the other. Why not screen the people looking to get in and only let in non criminals, and people who have the skills we need?

[Slavers]

But as you say, there are also good people who move around and if we take in more good than bad, then it's surely worth it, no? .

"Somebodies got to do the jobs that the British white working class are too superior to do" That's a very racist statement!

[beensaidbefore]

"Somebodies got to do the jobs that the British white working class are too superior to do" That's a very racist statement!

Thats the one form of acceptable racism though. Straight white men are fair game dont you know?

[CapitalGreen]

If only there was some sort of defense league, straight white men could join to protect them from such persecution.

[Slavers]

But it doesnt have to be one or the other. Why not screen the people looking to get in and only let in non criminals, and people who have the skills we need?

That is a sensible idea yet it does not fit well with far left ideology.

[Slavers]

If only there was some sort of defense league, straight white men could join to protect them from such persecution.

It should be the government but alas i suspect they are fully signed up to the neo liberal globalist agenda so we may never be able control immigration like we should be able too.

[Slavers]

If only there was some sort of defense league, straight white men could join to protect them from such persecution.

You don't condemn the racist comment which is interesting.

[JeMeSouviens]

That is a sensible idea yet it does not fit well with far left ideology.

Not with trots but fine for the tankies. :wink:

[CapitalGreen]

You don't condemn the racist comment which is interesting.

Probably because I read it as tongue-in-cheek and don't take everything I read online deadly seriously.

[Moulin Yarns]

What species are you then?



We played in South Morocco :wink:

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/jun/07/oldest-homo-sapiens-bones-ever-found-shake-foundations-of-the-human-story

[PeeJay]

:cb
What species are you then?

:faf: ... good enough to convince me to renew my PM sub after all ...

[Slavers]

We played in South Morocco :wink:

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/jun/07/oldest-homo-sapiens-bones-ever-found-shake-foundations-of-the-human-story

We played in South Morroco but we originate from Europe

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/05/170523083548.htm

[CapitalGreen]

We played in South Morroco but we originate from Europe

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/05/170523083548.htm

"New hypothesis about the origin of humankind suggests oldest hominin lived in Europe"

hypothesis
hʌɪˈpɒθɪsɪs
noun
a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.
synonyms: theory, theorem, thesis, conjecture, supposition, speculation, postulation, postulate, proposition, premise, surmise, assumption, presumption, presupposition;

[Slavers]

"New hypothesis about the origin of humankind suggests oldest hominin lived in Europe"

hypothesis
hʌɪˈpɒθɪsɪs
noun
a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.
synonyms: theory, theorem, thesis, conjecture, supposition, speculation, postulation, postulate, proposition, premise, surmise, assumption, presumption, presupposition;

Well it the oldest known human remains so its a good place to start, or you can continue to believe that we are really all Africans.

[CapitalGreen]

Well it the oldest known human remains so its a good place to start, or you can continue to believe that we are really all Africans.

They are not human remains

"7.2-million-year-old pre-human remains found in the Balkans"

[Slavers]

They are not human remains

"7.2-million-year-old pre-human remains found in the Balkans"

Ok I stand corrected but the point remains the same our origins are not from Africa but are more than likely to be European.

[Hibbyradge]

"Somebodies got to do the jobs that the British white working class are too superior to do" That's a very racist statement!

Criticising your own race isn't racist, ffs.

😂

[High-On-Hibs]

But it doesnt have to be one or the other. Why not screen the people looking to get in and only let in non criminals, and people who have the skills we need?

But then it would have to work both ways. People that wanted to leave this country would also need to have a background check before entering other countries. Not only is this highly costly, it would also stop home grown criminals and "workshy" people from leaving. So would there really be any benefit to having such a costly system in place? How would it be funded? The government of the day prefers to slash taxes at the expense of public services and they have already cut those down to the bone. So where would they find the funding to run such a system?

[High-On-Hibs]

"Somebodies got to do the jobs that the British white working class are too superior to do" That's a very racist statement!

Why is it racist to claim that there are an element of white British people who are in fact workshy? Is it racist to claim that some Muslims are terrorists? Or is it just stating an indisputable fact?

[Moulin Yarns]

Ok I stand corrected but the point remains the same our origins are not from Africa but are more than likely to be European.

Morocco isn't in Europe though

[Slavers]

Morocco isn't in Europe though

I didn't say it was.

[Slavers]

Why is it racist to claim that there are an element of white British people who are in fact workshy? Is it racist to claim that some Muslims are terrorists? Or is it just stating an indisputable fact?

Why bring their race into it? Can you not just say lazy British people? I'm sure it's not just white British who are lazy but lazy comes in all colours!

Plus there is not a Muslim race so to say some Muslims are terrorists would be accurate not racist.

[CapitalGreen]

Ok I stand corrected but the point remains the same our origins are not from Africa but are more than likely to be European.

Origins may very well be European as opposed to African however it would be misguided to dismiss the vast amounts of evidence to the contrary based on this one new study of a small body of evidence.


Retired anthropologist and author Dr Peter Andrews, formerly at the Natural History Museum in London, said: "It is possible that the human lineage originated in Europe, but very substantial fossil evidence places the origin in Africa, including several partial skeletons and skulls.

"I would be hesitant about using a single character from an isolated fossil to set against the evidence from Africa."

[Pete]

So is god black if he's African?

[stoneyburn hibs]

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeèeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerreeeee

[Slavers]

So is god black if he's African?

Seemingly Frank Bruno is his doppelganger!

[Pretty Boy]

We should welcome more immigrants on the basis of the wonders their cultures have worked on the British food scene in the last 25 years alone.

Race relations in this country are often portrayed as being characterised by conflict, I'd wager for a majority their 1st hand experience is probably more likely to be that of harmony.

[Slavers]

Criticising your own race isn't racist, ffs.

😂

Yes it is. Criticising a race is by definition racist.

[beensaidbefore]

But then it would have to work both ways. People that wanted to leave this country would also need to have a background check before entering other countries. Not only is this highly costly, it would also stop home grown criminals and "workshy" people from leaving. So would there really be any benefit to having such a costly system in place? How would it be funded? The government of the day prefers to slash taxes at the expense of public services and they have already cut those down to the bone. So where would they find the funding to run such a system?

Its about knowing who we have here. Why should we not know if some former warlord from the Balkans, or some rapist from Spain is now roaming about our streets. We keep homegrown people under surveillance, pvg checks, new check for domestic abuse etc, so why should incomers not be checked? I think we have a duty not to let our criminals run away either, paedos going to Asia and abusing kids is not on, and all the criminal types lording it up in Spain etc is no joke either. It should work both ways regardless of the cost.

If I want to go and live in US, Australia, NZ I would have to prove who I was, declare any criminal convictions, and potentially have to 'sell myself' to get citizenship. I don't see what is wrong with that. We could advertise for the people we want or need, and target specific areas, is nursing, construction etc. We could offer seasonal work incentives similar to happens in Oz. It seems to work there without any difficulty. You break the rules whilst a 'guest' in their country and your visa yes cancelled and you have to leave. I don't have a problem with any of that.

[Hibrandenburg]

Not having open borders also helps to keep criminals and those who have "no intention of working for a living" in the country. You know.... mainly British people.

It also helps create the black markets that criminals thrive on.

[Colr]

Who should we kick out?

[High-On-Hibs]

Who should we kick out?

The one's turkin all of err jerbs!

[Slavers]

Who should we kick out?

I dont think we need to kick anyone out we probably need to integrate our communities more rather than kick people out of them.

But if i could kick anyone out id kick out the ones who are plotting to set of bombs at pop concerts and other events.

[CropleyWasGod]

I dont think we need to kick anyone out we probably need to integrate our communities more rather than kick people out of them.

But if i could kick anyone out id kick out the ones who are plotting to set of bombs at pop concerts and other events.
Given that many of those who have been involved in such acts in recent years are and were British, where would you kick them out to?

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

The one's turkin all of err jerbs!

That's OK then, because none are.

Just wait until the price of soft fruit rockets though because there is nobody to pick them..

[Slavers]

Given that many of those who have been involved in such acts in recent years are and were British, where would you kick them out to?

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

Well the numbers are said to be 22,000 who pose a threat here on the UK. If your telling me that we have 22,000 home grown terrorists then we have a major problem.

Something has gone terribly wrong in our communities and our society as a whole. If we go along with your thinking that 22000 are British born and raised then what is the true figure of terrorist or their sympathisers living in the UK, 100,000 jihadis ready to kil at the flick of a switch?

If that's the case then we must look a the politics that have created this situation. Can we hold the politicians responsible?

But to answer your question we should be able to kick out the ones who are not born here then we can focus on the ones who are born here and deal with them more effectively.

Or we can can continue with open borders and accept bombs going off on our streets and murder as part of daily life and it's worth it as the open borders means we get cheap strawberries.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Well the numbers are said to be 22,000 who pose a threat here on the UK. If your telling me that we have 22,000 home grown terrorists then we have a major problem.

Something has gone terribly wrong in our communities and our society as a whole. If we go along with your thinking that 22000 are British born and raised then what is the true figure of terrorist or their sympathisers living in the UK, 100,000 jihadis ready to kil at the flick of a switch.

If that's the case then we must look a the politics that have created this situation. Can we hold the politicians responsible?

But to answer your question we should be able to kick out the ones who are not born here then we can focus on the ones who are born here and deal with them more effectively.

Or we can can continue with open borders and accept bombs going off on our streets and murder as part of daily life and it's worth it as the open borders means we get cheap strawberries.

We've never had 'open borders'; no country in the world has. We have free movement of people within the 27 EU nations, which is a very different matter. Those wishing to enter from the rest of the world, must make the relevant applications. The terrorist attacks in London and Manchester were carried out by British citizens, and no country is going to take British people who are deemed are a high terrorist risk.

[High-On-Hibs]

That's OK then, because none are.

Just wait until the price of soft fruit rockets though because there is nobody to pick them..

I'm glad your tongue in cheek radar is fully functional. :wink:

[Slavers]

We've never had 'open borders'; no country in the world has. We have free movement of people within the 27 EU nations, which is a very different matter. Those wishing to enter from the rest of the world, must make the relevant applications. The terrorist attacks in London and Manchester were carried out by British citizens, and no country is going to take British people who are deemed are a high terrorist risk.

Your right, I did mean to say free movement of people within the EU rather than open borders.

It's not just terrorism I'm sure I read on here that sex crimes have increased by 95%, in parts of Europe the figure is much higher.

The danger is that lots of migrants from outwith the EU are getting EU passports that shouldn't be. I have also read that the Irish Navy are now picking migrants up from the Libyan coast and transporting them into Europe. It's madness.

[High-On-Hibs]

Well the numbers are said to be 22,000 who pose a threat here on the UK. If your telling me that we have 22,000 home grown terrorists then we have a major problem.

Something has gone terribly wrong in our communities and our society as a whole. If we go along with your thinking that 22000 are British born and raised then what is the true figure of terrorist or their sympathisers living in the UK, 100,000 jihadis ready to kil at the flick of a switch?

If that's the case then we must look a the politics that have created this situation. Can we hold the politicians responsible?

But to answer your question we should be able to kick out the ones who are not born here then we can focus on the ones who are born here and deal with them more effectively.

Or we can can continue with open borders and accept bombs going off on our streets and murder as part of daily life and it's worth it as the open borders means we get cheap strawberries.

Over 65 million people in the UK "pose a threat". The problem with "pose a threat" is that it doesn't really tell you anything. Any run of the mill joe could take a daft turn one day and go on a massacring rampage. It's also never stated just how many of those 22,000 who "pose a threat" are British or not. Or what percentage belong to which nationalities.

Problem with the attitude of many in this country is that they automatically think 22,000 muslims are an instant threat to them. Which is why you always get those idiots on the bus whispering between themselves as soon as a Muslim steps on the bus with a rucksack.

[Slavers]

Over 65 million people in the UK "pose a threat". The problem with "pose a threat" is that it doesn't really tell you anything. Any run of the mill joe could take a daft turn one day and go on a massacring rampage. It's also never stated just how many of those 22,000 who "pose a threat" are British or not. Or what percentage belong to which nationalities.

Problem with the attitude of many in this country is that they automatically think 22,000 muslims are an instant threat to them. Which is why you always get those idiots on the bus whispering between themselves as soon as a Muslim steps on the bus with a rucksack.

22000 is the number of people who are known to the police to be an Islamic terrorist threat.

I don't really think your comments about people on the busses whispering about Muslims is based on reality. It's not something I have witnessed and I travel around alot.

[Moulin Yarns]

Well the numbers are said to be 22,000 who pose a threat here on the UK. If your telling me that we have 22,000 home grown terrorists then we have a major problem.

Something has gone terribly wrong in our communities and our society as a whole. If we go along with your thinking that 22000 are British born and raised then what is the true figure of terrorist or their sympathisers living in the UK, 100,000 jihadis ready to kil at the flick of a switch?

If that's the case then we must look a the politics that have created this situation. Can we hold the politicians responsible?

But to answer your question we should be able to kick out the ones who are not born here then we can focus on the ones who are born here and deal with them more effectively.

Or we can can continue with open borders and accept bombs going off on our streets and murder as part of daily life and it's worth it as the open borders means we get cheap strawberries.


We already have that ability, Abu Hamza was arrested in 2004 on terrorism charges and was extradited to the USA in 2012.

I seem to have seen this type of xenophobic talk before, things like the Mass migration caused the trouble in Germany, stop all immigrants. You wouldn't have been on here with a different user name a year ago would you?

[High-On-Hibs]

22000 is the number of people who are known to the police to be an Islamic terrorist threat.

I don't really think your comments about people on the busses whispering about Muslims is based on reality. It's not something I have witnessed and I travel around alot.

I can assure you that it is. Perhaps you just don't listen out for it. But when you're a nosey barsteward like me, you take in quite a lot of talk around you and it's something I experience fairly regularly. Whether it's people making crude jokes, or behaving like they're genuinely frightened and suspicious of the individual.

Being made to feel like an outsider and not an equal member of society only helps to promote radicalization.

[beensaidbefore]

I can assure you that it is. Perhaps you just don't listen out for it. But when you're a nosey barsteward like me, you take in quite a lot of talk around you and it's something I experience fairly regularly. Whether it's people making crude jokes, or behaving like they're genuinely frightened and suspicious of the individual.

Being made to feel like an outsider and not an equal member of society only helps to promote radicalization.


People have duty to dispel myths surrounding them. There is a certain amount of onus on the muslim community to not close ranks, and to work together to dispel the myth by becoming more open as a community. Citing radcalisaion as a fallout from prejudice is a cop out and what has led us to now. Strong firm action and evidence of communities calling out their own will encourage feelings of trust.

The rest of us have to be willing and open minded enough to accept that we could do more to intrgrate too.

[Hibrandenburg]

Being made to feel like an outsider and not an equal member of society only helps to promote radicalization.

:agree: How do you integrate into a society that doesn't accept you as an equal?

[Moulin Yarns]

I can assure you that it is. Perhaps you just don't listen out for it. But when you're a nosey barsteward like me, you take in quite a lot of talk around you and it's something I experience fairly regularly. Whether it's people making crude jokes, or behaving like they're genuinely frightened and suspicious of the individual.

Being made to feel like an outsider and not an equal member of society only helps to promote radicalization.

Nothing wrong with being vigilant. https://stv.tv/news/north/1391849-beeping-inside-bin-near-prison-forces-road-shut-down/

I have also notified a bus driver when there are unattended bags.

[Hibrandenburg]

Nothing wrong with being vigilant. https://stv.tv/news/north/1391849-beeping-inside-bin-near-prison-forces-road-shut-down/

I have also notified a bus driver when there are unattended bags.

Wow!

[High-On-Hibs]

Wow!

Best outcome - Someone bags themselves a Rolex watch.

Worst outcome - They get saddled with a Casio.

[beensaidbefore]

:agree: How do you integrate into a society that doesn't accept you as an equal?

With a lot of hardwork.

[High-On-Hibs]

:agree: How do you integrate into a society that doesn't accept you as an equal?

Hardwork, tolerance and refusing to stereotype and generalize. Things we're very bad at.

[marinello59]

Hardwork, tolerance and refusing to stereotype and generalize. Things we're very bad at.

Nope. The vast majority of people across the UK are actually pretty good at those things.

[High-On-Hibs]

Nope. The vast majority of people across the UK are actually pretty good at those things.

Disagree. There's a major problem in the UK and we try to ignore it.

[Hibrandenburg]

Disagree. There's a major problem in the UK and we try to ignore it.

If the problem you're referring to is xenophobia then that's a problem that has nothing to do with migrants and more to do with the xenophobes.

[marinello59]

Disagree. There's a major problem in the UK and we try to ignore it.

Let me guess, except you because you are better informed than everybody else. :greengrin

[High-On-Hibs]

If the problem you're referring to is xenophobia then that's a problem that has nothing to do with migrants and more to do with the xenophobes.

Xenophobia isn't as black and white (unintended pun!) as it's made out to be. There is a gray area as to what constitutes as xenophobic behaviour or not and plenty of people across the UK fall into that area. People can be racist without even acknowledging that they are.

[Bristolhibby]

It is a bit depressing. There's an Indian guy on now saying we should be stopping Eastern European people coming here, despite the fact that he did exactly the same thing years ago. He voted for ukip.
Ive always been for open borders and I doubt that will change.

Selfish chunt, with no sense of irony.

J

[beensaidbefore]

Xenophobia isn't as black and white (unintended pun!) as it's made out to be. There is a gray area as to what constitutes as xenophobic behaviour or not and plenty of people across the UK fall into that area. People can be racist without even acknowledging that they are.

You make an interesting point. TV programme a year or so back interviewed people from different ethnicities, showed them photos of the opposite sex and asked them which faces they found most attractive, and why. The results suggested that people are more attracted to people who look like them. It went a bit deeper about views on life partners marriage etc and again the vast majority were significantly more inclined to want to have a family with people who are the same as them. Not saying that proves anything, but the programme certainly suggested that there are tendencies which could be considered racist in non-white ethnic groups.

There is also some question, at least in my mind, about where protecting an ethnic quality and racism begin and end, and secondly who or what qualities qualify for protected status etc. That could fall into the grey are you mention.

[Colr]

That's OK then, because none are.

Just wait until the price of soft fruit rockets though because there is nobody to pick them..

Used to locals picked the fruit when I was a kid. It was not bad work. I think the Edinburgh suburbs may have changed a bit, though.

[lord bunberry]

Used to locals picked the fruit when I was a kid. It was not bad work. I think the Edinburgh suburbs may have changed a bit, though.
I used to pick fruit when I was younger, but the owners of the allotments used to chase me and my mates away :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

Yes it is. Criticising a race is by definition racist.

No.

No, it's not.

Why doesn't hibs.net have a facepalm emoticon?

[Hibrandenburg]

Xenophobia isn't as black and white (unintended pun!) as it's made out to be. There is a gray area as to what constitutes as xenophobic behaviour or not and plenty of people across the UK fall into that area. People can be racist without even acknowledging that they are.

Xenophobia is exactly that. Either you have a fear or dislike of things that are foreign to you or you don't. The cure and the cause are the same, education.

[makaveli1875]

i think we should let anyone that wants to come in regardless of race , colour etc , with the exception of muslims , they should only be allowed in in very limited numbers .. wont go down well with some of you on here but its how i feel about it right now

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

i think we should let anyone that wants to come in regardless of race , colour etc , with the exception of muslims , they should only be allowed in in very limited numbers .. wont go down well with some of you on here but its how i feel about it right now

They're under starters orders ....!

[CapitalGreen]

i think we should let anyone that wants to come in regardless of race , colour etc , with the exception of muslims , they should only be allowed in in very limited numbers .. wont go down well with some of you on here but its how i feel about it right now

http://www.hibs.net/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=32989

[stoneyburn hibs]

i think we should let anyone that wants to come in regardless of race , colour etc , with the exception of muslims , they should only be allowed in in very limited numbers .. wont go down well with some of you on here but its how i feel about it right now

We could also put them in purpose built camps.

[Moulin Yarns]

i think we should let anyone that wants to come in regardless of race , colour etc , with the exception of muslims , they should only be allowed in in very limited numbers .. wont go down well with some of you on here but its how i feel about it right now

But. Who will you blame next time something bad happens?

[Betty Boop]

i think we should let anyone that wants to come in regardless of race , colour etc , with the exception of muslims , they should only be allowed in in very limited numbers .. wont go down well with some of you on here but its how i feel about it right now

Aye lets single Muslims out. Why is that a good idea ?

[Hibrandenburg]

i think we should let anyone that wants to come in regardless of race , colour etc , with the exception of muslims , they should only be allowed in in very limited numbers .. wont go down well with some of you on here but its how i feel about it right now

Maybe make them wear stripey pajamas with a crescent moon badge.

[hibsbollah]

wont go down well with some of you on here

I wonder why that would be. Maybe everyone else is just being unreasonable.

[lapsedhibee]

Maybe make them wear stripey pajamas with a crescent moon badge.
Quite a lot of muslims have shops. Maybe we could organise a night where other people break the window glass in them.

[Moulin Yarns]

I heard that EU citizens are being asked to register to be allowed to remain in the UK in Theresa May's future land of opportunity. Now, as a citizen of the EU as well as Scotland and the UK I feel it is my duty to also apply to remain and support all other citizens of the EU in doing the same.
Break the system.

[Moulin Yarns]

I heard that EU citizens are being asked to register to be allowed to remain in the UK in Theresa May's future land of opportunity. Now, as a citizen of the EU as well as Scotland and the UK I feel it is my duty to also apply to remain and support all other citizens of the EU in doing the same.
Break the system.


https://www.gov.uk/eea-registration-certificate

[Hibernia&Alba]

i think we should let anyone that wants to come in regardless of race , colour etc , with the exception of muslims , they should only be allowed in in very limited numbers .. wont go down well with some of you on here but its how i feel about it right now

Very sad to see a Hibs fans come out with Donald Trump policies. A very poor statement.

[Slavers]

We already have that ability, Abu Hamza was arrested in 2004 on terrorism charges and was extradited to the USA in 2012.

I seem to have seen this type of xenophobic talk before, things like the Mass migration caused the trouble in Germany, stop all immigrants. You wouldn't have been on here with a different user name a year ago would you?

I don't know what you are on about with me having a different user name.

You will need clarify your xenophobic smear? I haven't said anything xenophobic. I have welcomed immigration but only via a points based system. I have also said don't kick anyone out but only the terrorists who are not born here. I don't see anything wrong it wanting to do that.

There has been an increase In migrant crimes, so to say there has not been it's just not being truthful with people, why would you want to be dishonest about It?

You do know that 3 out of the 5 terrorist attacks in France were committed by so called 'Syrian Refugees'?

[Ryan69]

Very sad to see a Hibs fans come out with Donald Trump policies. A very poor statement.

That will be the same policy that each of these Muslim countries have against Israelis.

why don't you criticize the Muslim countries that first brought the plan into place?

i forgot.....we have to just allow this invasion!

look up Operation Kaligri. Anyone that doesn't actually see that it is exactly what IS happening....Really needs to take their head out of the sand.

[WeeRussell]

That will be the same policy that each of these Muslim countries have against Israelis.

why don't you criticize the Muslim countries that first brought the plan into place?

i forgot.....we have to just allow this invasion!

look up Operation Kaligri. Anyone that doesn't actually see that it is exactly what IS happening....Really needs to take their head out of the sand.

Oh go on then. If they started it, let's just ban them all.

I despair.

[Betty Boop]

That will be the same policy that each of these Muslim countries have against Israelis.

why don't you criticize the Muslim countries that first brought the plan into place?

i forgot.....we have to just allow this invasion!

look up Operation Kaligri. Anyone that doesn't actually see that it is exactly what IS happening....Really needs to take their head out of the sand.

No results on Google for Operation Kaligri ?

[PeeJay]

No results on Google for Operation Kaligri ?


.... Kalergi ...

[CapitalGreen]

.... Kalergi ...

Must be hard for him to get the spelling right when he's only hearing about it on YouTube videos.

[makaveli1875]

We could also put them in purpose built camps.


Maybe make them wear stripey pajamas with a crescent moon badge.


Quite a lot of muslims have shops. Maybe we could organise a night where other people break the window glass in them.

Think you're getting a bit carried away there luvvies :rolleyes:

immigration is always a thorny issue , especially in the era of the tree huggers and social justice warriors . These things need to be discussed but y'all try and shut down the discussion with this crap before it gets anywhere .

[lapsedhibee]

Think you're getting a bit carried away there luvvies :rolleyes:

immigration is always a thorny issue , especially in the era of the tree huggers and social justice warriors . These things need to be discussed but y'all try and shut down the discussion with this crap before it gets anywhere .

The post which spawned this crap wasn't primarily about immigration though. It was about discriminating against a creed. Hence the historical references. :rolleyes:

[Ryan69]

Must be hard for him to get the spelling right when he's only hearing about it on YouTube videos.

Well im very very sorry I spelt it wrong.
predictive texting sucks.(maybe there's a reason it comes out wrong at times)

why don't you take your head out your a55....and be aware of what it is instead!

[CapitalGreen]

Well im very very sorry I spelt it wrong.
predictive texting sucks.(maybe there's a reason it comes out wrong at times)

why don't you take your head out your a55....and be aware of what it is instead!

I'll take it from your lack of denial that I wasn't wrong in my a55ertion though.

[HibbyDave]

Origins may very well be European as opposed to African however it would be misguided to dismiss the vast amounts of evidence to the contrary based on this one new study of a small body of evidence.

Read a book titled Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harrari. He gives a fantastic insight into how humanity as we know it developed.

[--------]

We could also put them in purpose built camps.


Maybe make them wear stripey pajamas with a crescent moon badge.


Quite a lot of muslims have shops. Maybe we could organise a night where other people break the window glass in them.

Not one - not TWO - but THREE in row! GODWIN'S LAW! GOTCHAZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :devil:


Think you're getting a bit carried away there luvvies :rolleyes:

immigration is always a thorny issue , especially in the era of the tree huggers and social justice warriors . These things need to be discussed but y'all try and shut down the discussion with this crap before it gets anywhere .

I think that this is one reason that Hislop did the program - any discussion of this issue gets shouted down before it gets past the opening couple of comments, and not by rational argument, but by personal attacks, name-calling, mockery.

It's understandable that people will be concerned about what sort of society their children and grandchildren will be living in, and it doesn't answer those concerns to respond with abuse whenever those concerns are raised.

I totally agree that we need to resist xenophobia and racist attitudes, but the stink of moral superiority, sanctimony, and mutually admiring back-slapping emanating from the soft liberal left these days can be quite stomach-churning.

And in the end we none of us get any farther down the road to a fair and just understanding - far less a resolution of the issue - because anyone even a little outside the acceptable guidelines set out by the liberal caucus gets shouted down by the alleged advocates of "an open and free-speaking democracy".

Just a thought.

[lapsedhibee]

i think we should let anyone that wants to come in regardless of race , colour etc , with the exception of muslims , they should only be allowed in in very limited numbers .. wont go down well with some of you on here but its how i feel about it right now


Not one - not TWO - but THREE in row! GODWIN'S LAW! GOTCHAZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :devil:

I think that this is one reason that Hislop did the program - any discussion of this issue gets shouted down before it gets past the opening couple of comments, and not by rational argument, but by personal attacks, name-calling, mockery.

It's understandable that people will be concerned about what sort of society their children and grandchildren will be living in, and it doesn't answer those concerns to respond with abuse whenever those concerns are raised.

I totally agree that we need to resist xenophobia and racist attitudes, but the stink of moral superiority, sanctimony, and mutually admiring back-slapping emanating from the soft liberal left these days can be quite stomach-churning.

And in the end we none of us get any farther down the road to a fair and just understanding - far less a resolution of the issue - because anyone even a little outside the acceptable guidelines set out by the liberal caucus gets shouted down by the alleged advocates of "an open and free-speaking democracy".

Just a thought.
Nobody here was shouting until you came in with your garish capital letters and multiple exclamation marks, nor issuing abuse until you alluded to stinking, stomach-churning liberals. :wink:

[--------]

Nobody here was shouting until you came in with your garish capital letters and multiple exclamation marks, nor issuing abuse until you alluded to stinking, stomach-churning liberals. :wink:


I referred to 'the stink of moral superiority sanctimony and mutually admiring back-slapping' coming from the soft liberal left'. I stand by it. People who have genuine concerns, whether those concerns are justified or not, don't need to be patronised and written off automatically as being motivated by racism or xenophobia.

Some people are just worried about the future, and they're entitled to have their worries taken seriously.

And I've never seen three posts by different posters fulfil Godwin's Law as quickly as that before. I apologise; I was carried away.

But quoting bringing the Third Reich into the argument isn't usually taken as the sign of someone trying to understand and see the other person's point of view. It's just a smartass way of calling someone a Nazi.

[lapsedhibee]

But quoting bringing the Third Reich into the argument isn't usually taken as the sign of someone trying to understand and see the other person's point of view.
There wasn't that much that was difficult to understand, tbh. The poster made it quite clear he/she's in favour of completely unlimited immigration, except for muslims. In the spirit of better understanding all round, would you care to comment on the post itself rather than just on the sarcy responses to it?

[beensaidbefore]

I referred to 'the stink of moral superiority sanctimony and mutually admiring back-slapping' coming from the soft liberal left'. I stand by it. People who have genuine concerns, whether those concerns are justified or not, don't need to be patronised and written off automatically as being motivated by racism or xenophobia.

Some people are just worried about the future, and they're entitled to have their worries taken seriously.

And I've never seen three posts by different posters fulfil Godwin's Law as quickly as that before. I apologise; I was carried away.

But quoting bringing the Third Reich into the argument isn't usually taken as the sign of someone trying to understand and see the other person's point of view. It's just a smartass way of calling someone a Nazi.

I think you make a fair point.

[--------]

There wasn't that much that was difficult to understand, tbh. The poster made it quite clear he/she's in favour of completely unlimited immigration, except for muslims. In the spirit of better understanding all round, would you care to comment on the post itself rather than just on the sarcy responses to it?


Seems to me that there's a problem of perception - many people's perception is that there's little or no discrimination (in the proper sense of the word) between refugees and economic migrants going on at our borders. I don't think that's actually the case; unfortunately the one ethnic group among those seeking entrance which can be readily identified is Muslim. The colour of their skin, the style of their clothes, and the fact that most Muslims will have a copy of the Qu'ran in their luggage - all that tends to be a bit of a giveaway. What it doesn't say is that the possessor of that Qu'ran is ipso facto a danger to society.

[Note: Unless, of course, you're one of those people (I spotted one on this forum not so long ago) who would bar any and all religious believers from any participation in political life. And besides, not all (e.g.) Syrian refugees are Muslim - there a lot of Christian believers seeking asylum, with good reason. IS, ISIS, ISIL, whatever they're called these days hate them even more than they hate moderate Muslims.]

There's surely no reason to turn away qualified professionals and workers from anywhere who have the willingness and capacity to contribute to our economy and social infrastructure - British medical students are now studying and working in Bulgaria, for instance, and there's no reason why we shouldn't operate reciprocal arrangements. Religion should have nothing to do with whether they're admitted or not.

So no, the Trumpet approach to border control isn't acceptable - it causes great hurt to the people turned away, and it deprives Britain of competent, contributing members of society. And it refuses entrance to people who desperately need to get to a safe place NOW.

Sadly, it's the truth that refugees are increasingly less welcome in the west in direct proportion to the darkness of their skin - as the Canadian UN Colonel explained to Paul in Hotel Rwanda - 'You're black. You're not even a ******. You're an African.'

Europeans - OK. Asians - well, we need to think about it - the darker you are, the longer we think. Black Africans? You have to be joking. Muslims? 10 years ago, maybe. Right now? We-e-ell ...

We shouldn't be placing obstacles in the way of genuine refugees who come in fear of their lives. We have much, much more in the way of material goods and services in the UK compared to so many other countries and we can certainly afford to share them temporarily. As IH's documentary pointed out, most refugees want shelter for a while until it's safe for them to go home - home being the place they've come from. It may be that the root of the problem is the perception that no one in government (remember John Reid as Home Secretary?) really has a clue as to how many people are entering the country, how many are staying long-term, how many are leaving, and who any of them really are? Over-simplification, but I believe that's how a lot of folks see things.

The problem I see is that successive UK governments have failed to grasp the nettle of control. 'Control' is a bad word on the left, after all. But show folks TV pictures of the camp at Calais with guys hanging off the couplings of the trains and trying to hide in the back of the freight lorries and they see uncontrolled chaos. They feel their communities changing around them, and they're worried - even scared - because the change seems to be uncontrolled and no one in authority seems ready to address this. The folks concerned may well have no reason for their fear, but there's no obvious notice taken of their worries, fears, complaints. Anytime they do open their mouths they're told they're bad people - racists, xenophobes, nazis. The only people who seem to listen are the far right, who aren't going to tell them the truth any more than their spineless local councillors are.

A little bit of plain talking and truth would go a long way here, but there's been so much 'moral superiority sanctimony and mutually admiring back-slapping' (sorry!) on the one side and deliberate misrepresentation and lying on the other that no one's much likely to believe anyone for a very long time. I know it's so much more complicated than this but this is the best I can do right now.

When the 'democratic' parties (the inverted commas are there because I don't really trust ANY of them myself) lose the trust of the electorate, the extremists from both left and right prosper, which is what we're seeing now. And if religion and race get into the mix, we're really in the crap.

I'm done. For now. :wink:

[Just Alf]

:

Totally agree... Excellent post

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[beensaidbefore]

Seems to me that there's a problem of perception - many people's perception is that there's little or no discrimination (in the proper sense of the word) between refugees and economic migrants going on at our borders. I don't think that's actually the case; unfortunately the one ethnic group among those seeking entrance which can be readily identified is Muslim. The colour of their skin, the style of their clothes, and the fact that most Muslims will have a copy of the Qu'ran in their luggage - all that tends to be a bit of a giveaway. What it doesn't say is that the possessor of that Qu'ran is ipso facto a danger to society.

[Note: Unless, of course, you're one of those people (I spotted one on this forum not so long ago) who would bar any and all religious believers from any participation in political life. And besides, not all (e.g.) Syrian refugees are Muslim - there a lot of Christian believers seeking asylum, with good reason. IS, ISIS, ISIL, whatever they're called these days hate them even more than they hate moderate Muslims.]

There's surely no reason to turn away qualified professionals and workers from anywhere who have the willingness and capacity to contribute to our economy and social infrastructure - British medical students are now studying and working in Bulgaria, for instance, and there's no reason why we shouldn't operate reciprocal arrangements. Religion should have nothing to do with whether they're admitted or not.

So no, the Trumpet approach to border control isn't acceptable - it causes great hurt to the people turned away, and it deprives Britain of competent, contributing members of society. And it refuses entrance to people who desperately need to get to a safe place NOW.

Sadly, it's the truth that refugees are increasingly less welcome in the west in direct proportion to the darkness of their skin - as the Canadian UN Colonel explained to Paul in Hotel Rwanda - 'You're black. You're not even a ******. You're an African.'

Europeans - OK. Asians - well, we need to think about it - the darker you are, the longer we think. Black Africans? You have to be joking. Muslims? 10 years ago, maybe. Right now? We-e-ell ...

We shouldn't be placing obstacles in the way of genuine refugees who come in fear of their lives. We have much, much more in the way of material goods and services in the UK compared to so many other countries and we can certainly afford to share them temporarily. As IH's documentary pointed out, most refugees want shelter for a while until it's safe for them to go home - home being the place they've come from. It may be that the root of the problem is the perception that no one in government (remember John Reid as Home Secretary?) really has a clue as to how many people are entering the country, how many are staying long-term, how many are leaving, and who any of them really are? Over-simplification, but I believe that's how a lot of folks see things.

The problem I see is that successive UK governments have failed to grasp the nettle of control. 'Control' is a bad word on the left, after all. But show folks TV pictures of the camp at Calais with guys hanging off the couplings of the trains and trying to hide in the back of the freight lorries and they see uncontrolled chaos. They feel their communities changing around them, and they're worried - even scared - because the change seems to be uncontrolled and no one in authority seems ready to address this. The folks concerned may well have no reason for their fear, but there's no obvious notice taken of their worries, fears, complaints. Anytime they do open their mouths they're told they're bad people - racists, xenophobes, nazis. The only people who seem to listen are the far right, who aren't going to tell them the truth any more than their spineless local councillors are.

A little bit of plain talking and truth would go a long way here, but there's been so much 'moral superiority sanctimony and mutually admiring back-slapping' (sorry!) on the one side and deliberate misrepresentation and lying on the other that no one's much likely to believe anyone for a very long time. I know it's so much more complicated than this but this is the best I can do right now.

When the 'democratic' parties (the inverted commas are there because I don't really trust ANY of them myself) lose the trust of the electorate, the extremists from both left and right prosper, which is what we're seeing now. And if religion and race get into the mix, we're really in the crap.

I'm done. For now. :wink:

👍 cracking post

[lapsedhibee]

The problem I see is that successive UK governments have failed to grasp the nettle of control. 'Control' is a bad word on the left, after all. But show folks TV pictures of the camp at Calais with guys hanging off the couplings of the trains and trying to hide in the back of the freight lorries and they see uncontrolled chaos. They feel their communities changing around them, and they're worried - even scared - because the change seems to be uncontrolled and no one in authority seems ready to address this. The folks concerned may well have no reason for their fear, but there's no obvious notice taken of their worries, fears, complaints. Anytime they do open their mouths they're told they're bad people - racists, xenophobes, nazis. The only people who seem to listen are the far right, who aren't going to tell them the truth any more than their spineless local councillors are.

A little bit of plain talking and truth would go a long way here, but there's been so much 'moral superiority sanctimony and mutually admiring back-slapping' (sorry!) on the one side and deliberate misrepresentation and lying on the other that no one's much likely to believe anyone for a very long time. I know it's so much more complicated than this but this is the best I can do right now.

Agree about the virtue signalling attached to the whole issue, Angela Merkel perhaps being a recent example.

But I wonder if you may in this part of your post be fusing the issues of immigration with religious intolerance. It's one thing to say immigration must be controlled, numbers must be monitored, services are being stretched, etc. And another to say immigration isn't a problem but Islam is. I personally don't hear peeps getting called Nazis for expressing a desire to monitor immigration numbers more closely. The jibes on this thread followed a post which clearly suggested that immigration is not a problem but muslim immigrants are. A different kettle of worms imo.

[Hibrandenburg]

Not one - not TWO - but THREE in row! GODWIN'S LAW! GOTCHAZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :devil:



I think that this is one reason that Hislop did the program - any discussion of this issue gets shouted down before it gets past the opening couple of comments, and not by rational argument, but by personal attacks, name-calling, mockery.

It's understandable that people will be concerned about what sort of society their children and grandchildren will be living in, and it doesn't answer those concerns to respond with abuse whenever those concerns are raised.

I totally agree that we need to resist xenophobia and racist attitudes, but the stink of moral superiority, sanctimony, and mutually admiring back-slapping emanating from the soft liberal left these days can be quite stomach-churning.

And in the end we none of us get any farther down the road to a fair and just understanding - far less a resolution of the issue - because anyone even a little outside the acceptable guidelines set out by the liberal caucus gets shouted down by the alleged advocates of "an open and free-speaking democracy".

Just a thought.

It's probably a sign of the times when people who are concerned about the welfare of fellow human beings and are willing to accept refugees whether they be economic or those seeking refuge from war and persecution are labelled as soft liberal lefties. It's an even sadder reflection on our christian shaped society when we start asking ourselves who is worthy of help and who is responsible for helping. I don't profess to know much about the christian bible but I remember the story of the good Samaritan, I'm in no way religious but the message makes sense no matter what you believe.

[--------]

Agree about the virtue signalling attached to the whole issue, Angela Merkel perhaps being a recent example.

But I wonder if you may in this part of your post be fusing the issues of immigration with religious intolerance. It's one thing to say immigration must be controlled, numbers must be monitored, services are being stretched, etc. And another to say immigration isn't a problem but Islam is. I personally don't hear peeps getting called Nazis for expressing a desire to monitor immigration numbers more closely. The jibes on this thread followed a post which clearly suggested that immigration is not a problem but muslim immigrants are. A different kettle of worms imo.


I don't see how in the present circumstances one can divorce the question of border control and the control of immigration from the question of racial intolerance. I don't think religious intolerance is a major problem right now - not, that is, if we're thinking of adherents of one religion seeking to persecute adherents of another. The intolerance I encounter right now comes from determined, committed atheists, who strangely enough seem to find no problem attacking Christianity but don't seem to find the same willingness to have a go at Islam. It seems it's OK to make jokes about Jesus, but doing the same about Mohammed will get you into deep doo-doo. (I wouldn't like to accuse the atheists of cowardice in the face of probable accusations of racism - and threat of a fatwa - but that thought does occasionally occur to me.)

I would say here that it's my firm opinion that anyone who disrespects another person's faith discredits his own to a much greater degree. We should be able to disagree with someone without disrespecting them, and resorting to outright persecution of those who believe differently from oneself rather suggests that one isn't very secure or convinced of the rightness of one's own beliefs. I think I've already made it clear that Trumpetist singling out of one group of people for exclusion alone isn't a position I hold in any way.

As for immigration, I believe we need more control - responsible, even-handed informed control. What sets me off are the people who view any suggestion of any degree of more efficient regulation as the first step to a police state.

[--------]

It's probably a sign of the times when people who are concerned about the welfare of fellow human beings and are willing to accept refugees whether they be economic or those seeking refuge from war and persecution are labelled as soft liberal lefties. It's an even sadder reflection on our christian shaped society when we start asking ourselves who is worthy of help and who is responsible for helping. I don't profess to know much about the christian bible but I remember the story of the good Samaritan, I'm in no way religious but the message makes sense no matter what you believe.


You say you're in no way religious, yet you hold up Christian values as the underpinning of our society? :confused:

Refugees are those who are seeking safety and shelter from war and persecution. Their reception in this country has been compromised by the shambles successive governments have made of border controls.

Economic migrants are a different issue, and in their case I think it's only reasonable that the UK should question whether their admission would harm or benefit the country as a whole.

No government has a mandate to harm its own citizens for the benefit of foreign citizens. The first responsibility of any government is the defence and nurture of its own citizens.

The only exception to that is surely the case of refugees from war and political or religious persecution, but that exception is absolute.

Meeting the immediate urgent needs of one person, or even one family, as Jesus teaches His disciples in the parable of the Good Samaritan, is one thing. the Samaritan supplies the man's needs from his own pocket; he takes full personal responsibility for the man's welfare, and he see the thing through to the end involving no one else in any cost or expenditure. That's my responsibility to the man or woman I meet who needs help. I have no problem with that.

But the government of this country has a much greater and more complex responsibility to maintain and protect the people of this country from threats foreign and domestic - dangers and damage from outside and from within. That's a different issue, and one that many on the left of politics here are unwilling to confront honestly.

It's after three - much, much too late for an auld man like me. I'll see you in the morning. :bye:

[makaveli1875]

Agree about the virtue signalling attached to the whole issue, Angela Merkel perhaps being a recent example.

But I wonder if you may in this part of your post be fusing the issues of immigration with religious intolerance. It's one thing to say immigration must be controlled, numbers must be monitored, services are being stretched, etc. And another to say immigration isn't a problem but Islam is. I personally don't hear peeps getting called Nazis for expressing a desire to monitor immigration numbers more closely. The jibes on this thread followed a post which clearly suggested that immigration is not a problem but muslim immigrants are. A different kettle of worms imo.

it was me that made the post , i did not make the post because i dont like muslims , its because in my opinion there are too many here , making up a now sizable chunk of the population of this country , and alot of them breed like rabbits . Even curbing the number coming in .. their numbers will continue to grow at a much faster rate than any other sections of our society . Im not intolerant of the ones who are here , i just think letting millions more in is not a particularly great idea .

[CropleyWasGod]

it was me that made the post , i did not make the post because i dont like muslims , its because in my opinion there are too many here , making up a now sizable chunk of the population of this country , and alot of them breed like rabbits . Even curbing the number coming in .. their numbers will continue to grow at a much faster rate than any other sections of our society . Im not intolerant of the ones who are here , i just think letting millions more in is not a particularly great idea .

Substitute the word "muslims" with "Irish" in the late 19th Century, and "blacks" in the mid-20th century. It's the same argument.

What did those groups do to British society and culture, other than enrich and diversify it?

Out of interest, what is the birth rate amongst Muslims?

[Moulin Yarns]

it was me that made the post , i did not make the post because i dont like muslims , its because in my opinion there are too many here , making up a now sizable chunk of the population of this country , and alot of them breed like rabbits . Even curbing the number coming in .. their numbers will continue to grow at a much faster rate than any other sections of our society . Im not intolerant of the ones who are here , i just think letting millions more in is not a particularly great idea .

Where are you getting that figure?

The latest estimate released is that total net migration to the UK in the year ending December 2016 was 248,000 total not muslims

[WeeRussell]

Substitute the word "muslims" with "Irish" in the late 19th Century, and "blacks" in the mid-20th century. It's the same argument.

What did those groups do to British society and culture, other than enrich and diversify it?

Out of interest, what is the birth rate amongst Muslims?

Rabbitish... apparently.

[Moulin Yarns]

and alot of them breed like rabbits .

This is of course humanly impossible.

According to the proceedings of the New Zealand Ecological Society (http://nzes-nzje.grdev.co.nz/free_issues/ProNZES24_79.pdf) from 1977, a field study of wild rabbits showed an average of 29.4 babies per female rabbit during one breeding season (they are generally fertile for ~243 days per year, basically the non-cold months). They are having litters of around 5.3 babies per litter and a bit over 5 litters per season (8-9 month season, so they have ~60% of the litters they could have).

Just saying.

[Hibrandenburg]

You say you're in no way religious, yet you hold up Christian values as the underpinning of our society? :confused:

Refugees are those who are seeking safety and shelter from war and persecution. Their reception in this country has been compromised by the shambles successive governments have made of border controls.

Economic migrants are a different issue, and in their case I think it's only reasonable that the UK should question whether their admission would harm or benefit the country as a whole.

No government has a mandate to harm its own citizens for the benefit of foreign citizens. The first responsibility of any government is the defence and nurture of its own citizens.

The only exception to that is surely the case of refugees from war and political or religious persecution, but that exception is absolute.

Meeting the immediate urgent needs of one person, or even one family, as Jesus teaches His disciples in the parable of the Good Samaritan, is one thing. the Samaritan supplies the man's needs from his own pocket; he takes full personal responsibility for the man's welfare, and he see the thing through to the end involving no one else in any cost or expenditure. That's my responsibility to the man or woman I meet who needs help. I have no problem with that.

But the government of this country has a much greater and more complex responsibility to maintain and protect the people of this country from threats foreign and domestic - dangers and damage from outside and from within. That's a different issue, and one that many on the left of politics here are unwilling to confront honestly.

It's after three - much, much too late for an auld man like me. I'll see you in the morning. :bye:

I like to think of myself as a christian atheist, culturally I'm christian because the society I grew up in has it's roots in christianity and atheist because I don't believe in the supernatural mumbo jumbo associated with it.

You make valid points and all worth a discussion on their own, however the post that invoked Godwin's law 3 times and the source of your mirth is something that is in my view odious and only worthy of scorn. Calls to single out a race, religion or creed have dark connotations that cannot be allowed to become "Salonfähig" as the Germans (who know what they're talking about) would say.

[--------]

I like to think of myself as a christian atheist, culturally I'm christian because the society I grew up in has it's roots in christianity and atheist because I don't believe in the supernatural mumbo jumbo associated with it.

You make valid points and all worth a discussion on their own, however the post that invoked Godwin's law 3 times and the source of your mirth is something that is in my view odious and only worthy of scorn. Calls to single out a race, religion or creed have dark connotations that cannot be allowed to become "Salonfähig" as the Germans (who know what they're talking about) would say.


Actually, the society you and I grew up in was not and is not Christian - it's better defined as post-Enlightenment agnostic.

The last time Christianity really influenced British law and society would be in the early 19th century - Wilberforce, Shaftesbuy and the Clapham Sect, the Factory Acts and the abolition of slavery.

But I do take your point.

I haven't ever defended the view that provoked the invocation of Godwin's Law. Generalising about an ethnic or racial community with a view to discriminating against them is a method employed by racists and totalitarians throughout history - and I mean totalitarians of both left and right.

Specious comparisons between current events and the Third Reich, BTW, can be a very effective way of killing discussion when things are going hard against one - I believe that that was the reason Godwin formulated his Law in the first place, to prevent people losing the argument coming out with stuff like, "Well, of course, your friend Josef Goebbels would be in full agreement with THAT, wouldn't he?"

And at the risk of being called on Godwin's Law myself, it is a fact that antisemitism and the 'stab in the back' nonsense did indeed become "Salonfähig" in the Germany of the Weimar Republic, and THAT was a major factor in the descent of that nation into the horrors of racist militaristic totalitarianism. So your point is a good one, and I apologise for treating a very serious point with inappropriate levity.