PDA

View Full Version : Macron



CropleyWasGod
21-06-2017, 10:23 AM
Someone on FB has just suggested that Macron make their gear in sweatshops.

I know that's a criticism of other manufacturers. However, can anyone tell me where ours are made? Does it say on the label?

Jones28
21-06-2017, 10:25 AM
I think pretty much every stitch of clothing you buy nowadays is made in sweatshops. It's a **** situation but is pretty much unavoidable. Our previous manufacturers Nike are among the worst in world.

Lago
21-06-2017, 10:26 AM
Someone on FB has just suggested that Macron make their gear in sweatshops.

I know that's a criticism of other manufacturers. However, can anyone tell me where ours are made? Does it say on the label?
Thought he was the French President.

Golden Bear
21-06-2017, 10:29 AM
Is this todays bad news thread ? 😏

makaveli1875
21-06-2017, 10:41 AM
Its fair to say that most of the clothes we wear are made in sweat shops , most likely made in the peoples republic of china

1van Sprou7e
21-06-2017, 10:42 AM
Yeah good luck finding a major sportswear company that doesn't use sweatshops

Just another reason not to spend £50 on a football shirt IMO

Saturday Boy
21-06-2017, 11:01 AM
Someone on FB has just suggested that Macron make their gear in sweatshops.

I know that's a criticism of other manufacturers. However, can anyone tell me where ours are made? Does it say on the label?

Was it not "macaroons and they're made in a sweet shop " 😉

CropleyWasGod
21-06-2017, 11:02 AM
Was it not "macaroons and they're made in a sweet shop " 😉

I'm using that :greengrin

Ozyhibby
21-06-2017, 11:06 AM
There is also an argument that the sweatshops represent progress from what went before. China is a lot richer now as a result of those sweatshops than it was 25 years ago. As far as eliminating poverty goes, the Chinese government over the last 25 years is probably the most successful in history.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

1van Sprou7e
21-06-2017, 11:13 AM
There is also an argument that the sweatshops represent progress from what went before. China is a lot richer now as a result of those sweatshops than it was 25 years ago. As far as eliminating poverty goes, the Chinese government over the last 25 years is probably the most successful in history.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've never really bought this argument. Sweatshops are almost a form of slave labour, to claim that it is a solution to poverty is ridiculous

Ozyhibby
21-06-2017, 11:30 AM
I've never really bought this argument. Sweatshops are almost a form of slave labour, to claim that it is a solution to poverty is ridiculous

So how did China get as rich as they have?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

McSwanky
21-06-2017, 11:33 AM
So how did China get as rich as they have?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When you say 'China is rich,' what do you mean by that? The country? The basic fact is that unless the wealth is distributed fairly, it means naff all to those who are 'employed' in the sweat shops. So I'm struggling to see how China being 'rich' is a good thing, or worth supporting slave labour over?

Ozyhibby
21-06-2017, 11:45 AM
When you say 'China is rich,' what do you mean by that? The country? The basic fact is that unless the wealth is distributed fairly, it means naff all to those who are 'employed' in the sweat shops. So I'm struggling to see how China being 'rich' is a good thing, or worth supporting slave labour over?

Show me where the wealth is distributed fairly?
Factory wages in China have now risen to the point where they are the same as countries like Portugal and are about 5 times the likes of India or Sri Lanka who are now taking those jobs from them. The Chinese are now moving to the next stage where the all work in offices in service industries.
Inequality will continue to rise but almost everyone in China is richer now than they were 25 years ago.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

iwasthere1972
21-06-2017, 12:21 PM
Is this todays bad news thread ? 😏

I see what you did there. :wink:

Moulin Yarns
21-06-2017, 12:24 PM
I see what you did there. :wink:

It's all unravelling

Brightside
21-06-2017, 01:41 PM
So how did China get as rich as they have?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

By having no Human Rights and using Slaves for cheap manufacturing. Oh and also by killing kids at stuff.

lucky
21-06-2017, 01:45 PM
There is also an argument that the sweatshops represent progress from what went before. China is a lot richer now as a result of those sweatshops than it was 25 years ago. As far as eliminating poverty goes, the Chinese government over the last 25 years is probably the most successful in history.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Kensington is a rich borough in London but as we've see on the news not everyone is rich. As for China huge parts or rural china is poverty stricken. Your argument is too simplistic

Ozyhibby
21-06-2017, 01:51 PM
By having no Human Rights and using Slaves for cheap manufacturing. Oh and also by killing kids at stuff.

You keep saying slaves but if that was the case then wages would not be rising so fast. And it's not true that they have no human rights, they are just a bit behind us. They'll get there eventually. It's only about 25 years since companies in Scotland refused to employ Catholics and you could be jailed for being gay.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CropleyWasGod
21-06-2017, 01:57 PM
You keep saying slaves but if that was the case then wages would not be rising so fast. And it's not true that they have no human rights, they are just a bit behind us. They'll get there eventually. It's only about 25 years since companies in Scotland refused to employ Catholics and you could be jailed for being gay.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yet, according to Amnesty, "The government continued to draft and enact a series of new national security laws that presented serious threats to the protection of human rights. "

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/asia-and-the-pacific/china/report-china/

mcohibs
21-06-2017, 02:01 PM
Roll on the new season by the way... 😂

Ozyhibby
21-06-2017, 02:14 PM
Yet, according to Amnesty, "The government continued to draft and enact a series of new national security laws that presented serious threats to the protection of human rights. "

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/asia-and-the-pacific/china/report-china/

I'm not saying they don't have a problem. Part of the reason they are having to curb freedoms in such ways is that the new found wealth of the citizens means they are starting to look seriously at the way things are done in their country in a way they couldn't when they were living on less than a dollar a day and starving on a family farm. Eventually the dam will break.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Baker9
21-06-2017, 02:27 PM
There is also an argument that the sweatshops represent progress from what went before. China is a lot richer now as a result of those sweatshops than it was 25 years ago. As far as eliminating poverty goes, the Chinese government over the last 25 years is probably the most successful in history.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Large corporations, with Nike a well-known case in point, were accused of exploiting young children in third world countries and they did exactly that. Bottom-line profit, as nearly always, is the driver for these companies and they cared not a jot. That is, until enough of their existing and target customer base started to protest by not buying. I know of no statistical basis for saying just how many customers it would need to stop a corporation exploiting in this way but there is speculation that around 8% would be enough for them to take enough notice and act. The challenge is that for example some of us on Hibs net might genuinely care but not enough to stop buying Nike / Macron gear.

Third world governments are reluctant to act on the children’s behalf as having them off the streets in the sweat shops solves a problem for the government.

The children themselves are likely not to thank you for saving them unless you replace the money or give them an alternative life perhaps through education. Nike are now pumping large amounts of money into third world countries to do this in social responsibility programmes. Good for them though a bit late.

If you have a conscience about this, check with Macron to find what their policy is and form a view whether to buy or not. If like most of us you kind of care but not enough to act then get down to the shop and buy the gear.

Elephant Stone
21-06-2017, 02:31 PM
Macron makes his gear in his bath and it is very good stuff.

No more questions please.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/04/24/00/3F8A406300000578-0-image-a-1_1492988745691.jpg

Jones28
21-06-2017, 02:40 PM
To the Holy Ground with you

CropleyWasGod
21-06-2017, 03:01 PM
To the Holy Ground with you

Actually, if we could get back on track, we can avoid the Holy Ground :greengrin

I take it nobody knows the answer.....

ian cruise
21-06-2017, 03:08 PM
"Macron is a European company. The head office is in Italy, in Bologna, with a production office in China, Tianjin. 135 is the number of people who work for Macron".

http://www.macron.com/eu/en/work-with-us

Don't know if that gets you any closer to an answer?

CropleyWasGod
21-06-2017, 03:11 PM
"Macron is a European company. The head office is in Italy, in Bologna, with a production office in China, Tianjin. 135 is the number of people who work for Macron".

http://www.macron.com/eu/en/work-with-us

Don't know if that gets you any closer to an answer?

Thanks.

135 people? Doesn't sound much.

ian cruise
21-06-2017, 03:15 PM
Thanks.

135 people? Doesn't sound much.

Would depend how much is automated but I agree, considering the size of the brand it sounds like a very small number

Ozyhibby
21-06-2017, 03:19 PM
Would depend how much is automated but I agree, considering the size of the brand it sounds like a very small number

Their production is likely outsourced to a Chinese company and the 135 are employed in design and sales etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Golden Bear
21-06-2017, 03:26 PM
I've got a suspicion that our old friend Mr Petrie is going to be brought in to this very shortly. Just saying.

Ozyhibby
21-06-2017, 03:32 PM
https://capx.co/even-marx-understood-the-importance-of-factories/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

WhileTheChief..
21-06-2017, 04:13 PM
It's great taking the moral high ground but everyone would be complaining like mad if the prices shot up.

I'm not talking Hibs strips here, I'm taking about consumer goods in general.

Asda and Tesco can sell a pair of jeans for under a fiver. No chance the folk that make them are receiving a decent wage.

One of the perks of living in a mature economy I guess.

1van Sprou7e
21-06-2017, 04:26 PM
https://capx.co/even-marx-understood-the-importance-of-factories/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is just an article claiming that the only way to achieve decent wages is by having competing corporations drive up wages. Doesn't really give any reason as to why decent wages aren't possible from the beginning in a non-capitalist system

superfurryhibby
21-06-2017, 04:28 PM
It's great taking the moral high ground but everyone would be complaining like mad if the prices shot up.

I'm not talking Hibs strips here, I'm taking about consumer goods in general.

Asda and Tesco can sell a pair of jeans for under a fiver. No chance the folk that make them are receiving a decent wage.

One of the perks of living in a mature economy I guess.

Makes you wnder who makes all the profit from a 40 quid football top ( gyessing the price a little here)?
Struggling to see the connection between the final cost to the consumer and production costs, we are being screwed senseless anyway.

I'm old enough to remember when companies like Levis, Lee and Wrangler all made clothing in Scotland. Imagine that, reduction of carbon footprint and creating employment in places where you market your product.....

ian cruise
21-06-2017, 04:42 PM
Makes you wnder who makes all the profit from a 40 quid football top ( gyessing the price a little here)?
Struggling to see the connection between the final cost to the consumer and production costs, we are being screwed senseless anyway.

I'm old enough to remember when companies like Levis, Lee and Wrangler all made clothing in Scotland. Imagine that, reduction of carbon footprint and creating employment in places where you market your product.....

Interesting point. There's a very good manufacturer of cycling clothing called Endura, be interesting if a Scottish club went to them to see if they fancied a unique tie in and see how it worked out for both financially.

Part of the problem I would guess is there is a younger generation who want Nike, Puma etc on their kit instead of a smaller, less well-known brand.

Ozyhibby
21-06-2017, 04:48 PM
Interesting point. There's a very good manufacturer of cycling clothing called Endura, be interesting if a Scottish club went to them to see if they fancied a unique tie in and see how it worked out for both financially.

Part of the problem I would guess is there is a younger generation who want Nike, Puma etc on their kit instead of a smaller, less well-known brand.

I hadn't heard of Macron until recently.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

hibsbollah
21-06-2017, 04:51 PM
There is also an argument that the sweatshops represent progress from what went before. China is a lot richer now as a result of those sweatshops than it was 25 years ago. As far as eliminating poverty goes, the Chinese government over the last 25 years is probably the most successful in history.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Statistically, South Korea 1960-1990 wins the most successful poverty reduction. Coming out of wartime makes it a lot easier. But that also depends how much you believe in trickle-down economics. Cuba under Castro also has a good shout.

Agree with the other comments that all the big manufacturers will use sweat shop labour at some point in the process.

Ozyhibby
21-06-2017, 05:15 PM
Makes you wnder who makes all the profit from a 40 quid football top ( gyessing the price a little here)?
Struggling to see the connection between the final cost to the consumer and production costs, we are being screwed senseless anyway.

I'm old enough to remember when companies like Levis, Lee and Wrangler all made clothing in Scotland. Imagine that, reduction of carbon footprint and creating employment in places where you market your product.....

The company in China that makes iPhones gets 5USD a phone but it retails at 650USD. Production costs and price have long since been divorced.
When we made jeans here they were a lot more expensive to buy than they are now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

1van Sprou7e
21-06-2017, 06:00 PM
For anyone wondering how to get cheap clothes in a slightly more ethical way you can find some interesting stuff at second hand shops, co-ops and charities

Ozyhibby
21-06-2017, 06:30 PM
For anyone wondering how to get cheap clothes in a slightly more ethical way you can find some interesting stuff at second hand shops, co-ops and charities

What's unethical about giving your money to Chinese people?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ian cruise
21-06-2017, 06:34 PM
I hadn't heard of Macron until recently.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agree they're not a big name but they have over the last few years become a bit more established and provide kit for a good number of teams. I may be doing you a disservice but I'm guessing you fall out with the age brackets I was assuming are influenced by the brand (I do too if it any consolation). I was meaning more teens and early twenties who are probably a bit more brand driven than some older fans who buy a Hibs top because it's our team.

1van Sprou7e
21-06-2017, 06:45 PM
What's unethical about giving your money to Chinese people?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hardly any of that money is going to China, and even less is going to the working class in China. An huge amount of that money is just going straight into the pockets of people who already have too much money to know what to do with, whether they're in China or in the West somewhere

And anyway all major manufacturers/producers have unethical practices. Not saying co-ops and charities are perfect but surely it's not difficult to realise that it's more ethical to buy your clothes from these kinds of places

Ozyhibby
21-06-2017, 07:04 PM
Hardly any of that money is going to China, and even less is going to the working class in China. An huge amount of that money is just going straight into the pockets of people who already have too much money to know what to do with, whether they're in China or in the West somewhere

And anyway all major manufacturers/producers have unethical practices. Not saying co-ops and charities are perfect but surely it's not difficult to realise that it's more ethical to buy your clothes from these kinds of places

The working class of China is very much getting richer. I'm not sure how anyone can dispute that?
I'm not sure what's so ethical about the co-op? Anytime I've been in one their prices seem a lot higher that tesco, sainsburys etc. If that is so they can give more money to farmers at the expense of struggling families buying their groceries then I'm not sure that seems very ethical to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CropleyWasGod
21-06-2017, 07:38 PM
The working class of China is very much getting richer. I'm not sure how anyone can dispute that?
I'm not sure what's so ethical about the co-op? Anytime I've been in one their prices seem a lot higher that tesco, sainsburys etc. If that is so they can give more money to farmers at the expense of struggling families buying their groceries then I'm not sure that seems very ethical to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Think he was meaning co-operative organisations rather than the Co-Op....

hibee
21-06-2017, 08:25 PM
Hardly any of that money is going to China, and even less is going to the working class in China. An huge amount of that money is just going straight into the pockets of people who already have too much money to know what to do with, whether they're in China or in the West somewhere

And anyway all major manufacturers/producers have unethical practices. Not saying co-ops and charities are perfect but surely it's not difficult to realise that it's more ethical to buy your clothes from these kinds of places

How much of the money spent on second hand clothes in a charity shop actually goes to those who need it though when they pay their top staff £300,000 per year?

The clothes could still have come from a Chinese sweatshop anyway so does it really matter where you buy them.

cocteautwin
22-06-2017, 03:58 AM
I live and work in China and I have my own business sourcing textiles and selling around the world. The main factory I work with has workers from all around China. They get paid piece rate and live in a level of accommodation what might be similar to a student hall of residence in the UK. They all have their own small rooms with air con and a tv and their take home pay is around £700 per month (at current exchange rates). On this salary they can afford to send a fair bit of it home to their families and have a decent standard of living. Certainly a better standard of living than a lot of people living on some crappy council estate in the UK on benefits struggling to meet their next Sky payments or scrabbling down the back of their sofa for a few pennies to make up the price of a packet of fags.

The suggestion that all these people are akin to slaves is quite ridiculous. They can walk away from these jobs at any point. The alternative for a lot of these workers would be working in a field for a few quid a day or for the young women, perhaps a life of prostitution.

If there’s 135 workers for Macron in Tianjin that will probably include all the production workers as well as the design team, admin etc. It really doesn’t take long to churn out a football top for a hemmer – they can probably get through 200pcs a day x 50 hemmers = 10,000 football tops a day. No need to outsource I reckon, although at this time of the year they might need to outsource due to all the new designs coming out from all the clubs.

I’m sure there are some pretty poor conditions in some of the factories here but I know, generally, the conditions are worse in places like Vietnam, Bangladesh etc.

Not sure what the point of my post is – just to give a little more info on what conditions are like, not here to start an argument. It’s not as bad as you might think (although there will be some bad apples in the pot).

Beefster
22-06-2017, 04:11 AM
For anyone wondering how to get cheap clothes in a slightly more ethical way you can find some interesting stuff at second hand shops, co-ops and charities

Unless they refuse stuff that was made in Asia, I'm not sure how it's more ethical other than some hipsters easing their guilt by donating to charity at the same time as buying their retro leather coat.

ian cruise
22-06-2017, 09:24 AM
I live and work in China and I have my own business sourcing textiles and selling around the world. The main factory I work with has workers from all around China. They get paid piece rate and live in a level of accommodation what might be similar to a student hall of residence in the UK. They all have their own small rooms with air con and a tv and their take home pay is around £700 per month (at current exchange rates). On this salary they can afford to send a fair bit of it home to their families and have a decent standard of living. Certainly a better standard of living than a lot of people living on some crappy council estate in the UK on benefits struggling to meet their next Sky payments or scrabbling down the back of their sofa for a few pennies to make up the price of a packet of fags.

The suggestion that all these people are akin to slaves is quite ridiculous. They can walk away from these jobs at any point. The alternative for a lot of these workers would be working in a field for a few quid a day or for the young women, perhaps a life of prostitution.

If there’s 135 workers for Macron in Tianjin that will probably include all the production workers as well as the design team, admin etc. It really doesn’t take long to churn out a football top for a hemmer – they can probably get through 200pcs a day x 50 hemmers = 10,000 football tops a day. No need to outsource I reckon, although at this time of the year they might need to outsource due to all the new designs coming out from all the clubs.

I’m sure there are some pretty poor conditions in some of the factories here but I know, generally, the conditions are worse in places like Vietnam, Bangladesh etc.

Not sure what the point of my post is – just to give a little more info on what conditions are like, not here to start an argument. It’s not as bad as you might think (although there will be some bad apples in the pot).

Glad you shared the detail, always interesting from someone who has or is actually involved. As you say it's probably not ideal but it could be a lot worse and certainly doesn't sound like slave labour. There are plenty in the UK who are also living and working in terrible conditions so maybe we shouldn't be so quick to criticise.

We would all like much better living and working conditions for all but it's not a quick fix and hopefully these things are improving. Main problem is that while large corporations (not Macron to best of my knowledge) are so driven by maximum profit they will take liberties with workers rights, pay and safety. That is taking this conversation right in to Holy Ground territory though....

Ozyhibby
22-06-2017, 10:42 AM
I live and work in China and I have my own business sourcing textiles and selling around the world. The main factory I work with has workers from all around China. They get paid piece rate and live in a level of accommodation what might be similar to a student hall of residence in the UK. They all have their own small rooms with air con and a tv and their take home pay is around £700 per month (at current exchange rates). On this salary they can afford to send a fair bit of it home to their families and have a decent standard of living. Certainly a better standard of living than a lot of people living on some crappy council estate in the UK on benefits struggling to meet their next Sky payments or scrabbling down the back of their sofa for a few pennies to make up the price of a packet of fags.

The suggestion that all these people are akin to slaves is quite ridiculous. They can walk away from these jobs at any point. The alternative for a lot of these workers would be working in a field for a few quid a day or for the young women, perhaps a life of prostitution.

If there’s 135 workers for Macron in Tianjin that will probably include all the production workers as well as the design team, admin etc. It really doesn’t take long to churn out a football top for a hemmer – they can probably get through 200pcs a day x 50 hemmers = 10,000 football tops a day. No need to outsource I reckon, although at this time of the year they might need to outsource due to all the new designs coming out from all the clubs.

I’m sure there are some pretty poor conditions in some of the factories here but I know, generally, the conditions are worse in places like Vietnam, Bangladesh etc.

Not sure what the point of my post is – just to give a little more info on what conditions are like, not here to start an argument. It’s not as bad as you might think (although there will be some bad apples in the pot).

Thanks for sharing. Sounds like a win-win situation. Good jobs for Chinese people, cheap clothes for us. Everyone is happy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

1van Sprou7e
22-06-2017, 10:53 AM
Unless they refuse stuff that was made in Asia, I'm not sure how it's more ethical other than some hipsters easing their guilt by donating to charity at the same time as buying their retro leather coat.

Once the clothes are in the charity shop it doesn't matter as much where they came from and how they were made. The big companies have already been paid for the item and now the shop is recycling it to raise money for a good cause.

BullsCloseHibs
22-06-2017, 02:34 PM
Stone Island is made in sweat shops :agree:

(mind you, who wears it these days, it looks trash-chav)

Northern Hibby
23-06-2017, 08:55 AM
Really fancy an away style training top for the gym, I can't do the FKW thing 😂

Brightside
23-06-2017, 08:56 AM
I wish the season would start

FilipinoHibs
23-06-2017, 11:35 AM
Any job would improve the life of Asia's poor. These factory jobs are luxury compared to what I have seen in India and the Philippines over the last three years. Shop worker in Philippines paid £3 a day for 12 hour shift. Two days off a month. 7 days annual leave a year. Or go and work as maid for £150 a month. Have no days off for two years. Get home to see your chikdren for one week a year.

Ozyhibby
23-06-2017, 12:03 PM
Any job would improve the life of Asia's poor. These factory jobs are luxury compared to what I have seen in India and the Philippines over the last three years. Shop worker in Philippines paid £3 a day for 12 hour shift. Two days off a month. 7 days annual leave a year. Or go and work as maid for £150 a month. Have no days off for two years. Get home to see your chikdren for one week a year.

I'm beginning to feel guilty about not buying more clothes. [emoji3]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk