Tim Farron - Lib Dem

[H18 SFR]

Tim Farron resigns. The bible goes against what's required of him as a politician. mentalist.

[500miles]

The Bible says is a sin to be gay. Tim Farron believes the bible. He doesn't hate gays, much like he doesn't hate idolitors (ie. any other religion), and his liberal beliefs mean that he doesn't force his own religion onto others.

It's actually EXACTLY how we ask people of faith to behave in a modern, civilised society. In fact, until we stop requiring MPs to swear loyalty to the Queen, as God's chosen defender of the faith, he's astoundingly moderate in his sincere religious beliefs.

[cabbageandribs1875]

i now have nothing but respect for the man

[Glory Lurker]

It amazes me, well depresses me actually, that belief in a man in the sky isn't something that raises serious questions about a person's fitness for any political office.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Surely liberalism means the ability to disagree, but refrain from imposing one's will upon others i.e. tolerance and the freedom to differ. As an atheist, I can understand the moral issue religious people have with issues such as homosexuality, though I disagree with them. For me the question is whether religious believers use their faith to discriminate against others, for at they point they are acting illiberally. As far as I know, Tim Farron does not believe in using the law to discriminate against LGBT people, and is therefore separating his beliefs in personal conduct from legal rights. I don't see any inconsistency in that position: to disagree with somebody, yet support their right to live as they wish, is the epitome of liberalism. If indeed this is Farron's position, I don't see the need for him to step down. Perhaps he just feels that the constant questions about his faith and personal views is reflecting badly on the party?

[GlesgaeHibby]

Surely liberalism means the ability to disagree, but refrain from imposing one's will upon others i.e. tolerance and the freedom to differ. As an atheist, I can understand the moral issue religious people have with issues such as homosexuality, though I disagree with them. For me the question is whether religious believers use their faith to discriminate against others, for at they point they are acting illiberally. As far as I know, Tim Farron does not believe in using the law to discriminate against LGBT people, and is therefore separating his beliefs in personal conduct from legal rights. I don't see any inconsistency in that position: to disagree with somebody, yet support their right to live as they wish, is the epitome of liberalism. If indeed this is Farron's position, I don't see the need for him to step down. Perhaps he just feels that the constant questions about his faith and personal views is reflecting badly on the party?

Agree with this, and I think Farron made the point on Liberalism well in his speech. I respect him a lot more now for having the courage to stand up for his faith.

[lucky]

The guy had a picture of Thatcher on his was as a teenager, to me that's a damm sight less Christian than being gay

[Smartie]

My girlfriend's father is a LibDem and a Christian and he has similarly "interesting" views on homosexuality.

I obviously don't really understand the meaning of Liberal, as this kind of mindset was what I thought was referred to as "conservative with a small c".

[easty]

The Bible says is a sin to be gay. Tim Farron believes the bible. He doesn't hate gays, much like he doesn't hate idolitors (ie. any other religion), and his liberal beliefs mean that he doesn't force his own religion onto others.

It's actually EXACTLY how we ask people of faith to behave in a modern, civilised society. In fact, until we stop requiring MPs to swear loyalty to the Queen, as God's chosen defender of the faith, he's astoundingly moderate in his sincere religious beliefs.

The bible says a lot of things that I'm sure Tim Farron doesn't live his life by.

It's far from exactly how I want people of faith to behave on modern society. In modern society being gay is not a sin, and using your faith as an excuse to be a moron isn't what I expect.

[500miles]

The bible says a lot of things that I'm sure Tim Farron doesn't live his life by.

It's far from exactly how I want people of faith to behave on modern society. In modern society being gay is not a sin, and using your faith as an excuse to be a moron isn't what I expect.
And Farron probably admits to being a sinner. However, he probably also believes in what the bible says about forgiveness and not being judgemental of others.

The Bible seems pretty explicit regarding homosexuality. As a liberal guy, Farron likely holds forgiveness and non judgement above the fire and brimstone old testament, but I can understand why anyone who sincerely believes in biblical scripture would be uncomfortable denying that outright.

[danhibees1875]

It amazes me, well depresses me actually, that belief in a man in the sky isn't something that raises serious questions about a person's fitness for any political office.

I think being religious transcends simply believing in the existence and omnipotence of God. I don't think being religious should disqualify anyone from a political role, or any other role for that matter (although certain religions may disqualify you from a sausage roll).

[Sylar]

I think being religious transcends simply believing in the existence and omnipotence of God. I don't think being religious should disqualify anyone from a political role, or any other role for that matter (although certain religions may disqualify you from a sausage roll).

In an institution where turning up to prayer is a pre-requisite to speaking in the Commons chamber, ousting religion from politics is not something that's likely to happen anytime soon.

I've no issue with people holding their own faith/beliefs - when it begins to interfere with your party agenda or you can't square the circle of your faith and party policies, then it's time to walk away.

Farron has supported a lot of LGBTQI legislation that's passed through Parliament, but has voted against some big ones (or abstained). However, his record is nowhere near as bad as fellow Christian Theresa May - her voting record on LGBTQ rights is abhorrent. No wonder she's comfortable cosying up with a group like the DUP.

[hibsbollah]

Agree with this, and I think Farron made the point on Liberalism well in his speech. I respect him a lot more now for having the courage to stand up for his faith.

Disagree, I think Farrons position is incoherent. His extreme evangelical christian faith is incompatible with liberalism, by definition. Saying liberal democracy should allow a range of beliefs makes sense, but saying liberal democracy should allow a range of illiberal beliefs doesn't.

His resignation has more to do with his crap performance as leader of his party IMO.

[easty]

Disagree, I think Farrons position is incoherent. His extreme evangelical christian faith is incompatible with liberalism, by definition. Saying liberal democracy should allow a range of beliefs makes sense, but saying liberal democracy should allow a range of illiberal beliefs doesn't.

His resignation has more to do with his crap performance as leader of his party IMO.

:agree:

[Colr]

The Bible says is a sin to be gay. Tim Farron believes the bible. He doesn't hate gays, much like he doesn't hate idolitors (ie. any other religion), and his liberal beliefs mean that he doesn't force his own religion onto others.

It's actually EXACTLY how we ask people of faith to behave in a modern, civilised society. In fact, until we stop requiring MPs to swear loyalty to the Queen, as God's chosen defender of the faith, he's astoundingly moderate in his sincere religious beliefs.

Where does the bible say its a sin to be gay?

[easty]

Where does the bible say its a sin to be gay?

Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lay with someone who has the same junk as you.

[Betty Boop]

Lord Paddick also stepped down as Home Affairs spokesman, raising concerns about Tim Farron's views on 'various issues'.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40277398

[Mikey]

It's probably for the best. We don't want superstitious folk running the country.

[Geo_1875]

In an institution where turning up to prayer is a pre-requisite to speaking in the Commons chamber, ousting religion from politics is not something that's likely to happen anytime soon.

I've no issue with people holding their own faith/beliefs - when it begins to interfere with your party agenda or you can't square the circle of your faith and party policies, then it's time to walk away.

Farron has supported a lot of LGBTQI legislation that's passed through Parliament, but has voted against some big ones (or abstained). However, his record is nowhere near as bad as fellow Christian Theresa May - her voting record on LGBTQ rights is abhorrent. No wonder she's comfortable cosying up with a group like the DUP.

I wouldn't single out Theresa May. The current incarnation of the Conservative Party has many members who would claim to be Christian. They are not.

[hibsbollah]

Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lay with someone who has the same junk as you.
:agree:
Kings 4:18 Thou shalt not look like the vicar off of Wallace and Gromit Curse of The WereRabbit.

[Future17]

I think being religious transcends simply believing in the existence and omnipotence of God. I don't think being religious should disqualify anyone from a political role, or any other role for that matter (although certain religions may disqualify you from a sausage roll).

Perhaps slightly ironically, those certain religions may have a lot in common with sexuality in that, ultimately, it comes down to how you feel about the sausage.

[Glory Lurker]

If a scientologist stood for election, they would get it tight for their beliefs. Other religions escape this because they have a longer tradition. In the wider picture, these organisations benefit from special treatment really for no reason other than popularity and longevity, but nothing that substantiates their case for such treatment. That, imo, is not good for society and tolerating it is only prolonging their unjustified position.

[beensaidbefore]

So based on the comments above, everyone agrees, we should have no members of parliament who are practicing jews or muslims either, or other religions that do not endorse homosexuality?

[Hibernia&Alba]

The bible says a lot of things that I'm sure Tim Farron doesn't live his life by.

It's far from exactly how I want people of faith to behave on modern society. In modern society being gay is not a sin, and using your faith as an excuse to be a moron isn't what I expect.

That's a good point. You often find that these things are taken a la carte, with some things from religious texts accepted and others dropped. For example, does Tim Farron believe that usury is a sin? Doesn't The Bible specifically say that the lending of money at interest is forbidden? What's his view on modern finance then?

[nairn hibee]

So based on the comments above, everyone agrees, we should have no members of parliament who are practicing jews or muslims either, or other religions that do not endorse homosexuality?
The media won't ask a Muslim if they endorse homosexuality,just the Christian ones it would seem

[easty]

So based on the comments above, everyone agrees, we should have no members of parliament who are practicing jews or muslims either, or other religions that do not endorse homosexuality?

If you're so backward thinking that you think being gay is a choice/sin/crime, then I'd rather no have you representing me in any parliament.

[easty]

That's a good point. You often find that these things are taken a la carte, with some things from religious texts accepted and others dropped. For example, does Tim Farron believe that usury is a sin? Doesn't The Bible specifically say that the lending of money at interest is forbidden? What's his view on modern finance then?

He'll no doubt be just like most of them, god does want this part of the bible, but that other bit, well it's open to interpretation and you've got to put it in to context, and anyway I don't think that counts as gods wishes anyway...but the gay thing, yeah that's real, god hates that.

[lord bunberry]

The media won't ask a Muslim if they endorse homosexuality,just the Christian ones it would seem

To be fair I think he was asked about it due to previous comments he had made. It's not something the media would normally bring up out of the blue.

[beensaidbefore]

If you're so backward thinking that you think being gay is a choice/sin/crime, then I'd rather no have you representing me in any parliament.

I'm not running for parliament mate, don't worry!😂

But seriously, there doesn't seem to be the same pressure on non-christian religious followers to let the public know their stance on the matter of homosexuality. Why do you think that is?

[easty]

I'm not running for parliament mate, don't worry!😂

But seriously, there doesn't seem to be the same pressure on non-christian religious followers to let the public know their stance on the matter of homosexuality. Why do you think that is?

Cos life's not always fair.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Disagree, I think Farrons position is incoherent. His extreme evangelical christian faith is incompatible with liberalism, by definition. Saying liberal democracy should allow a range of beliefs makes sense, but saying liberal democracy should allow a range of illiberal beliefs doesn't.

His resignation has more to do with his crap performance as leader of his party IMO.

Disagree. He has position and beliefs, and he isn't imposing them on anybody. Only beliefs that the majority agree with are liberal?

[Pretty Boy]

I always think if Jesus was around today he'd have more to worry him than whether 2 people of the same sex fancy each other. Some people in this country, especially a lot of the religious types, have an unhealthy obsession with what people get up to in their own bedrooms.

I wonder if the same people apply the same backward thinking to eating shellfish (Leviticus 11:9-12), having a foreskin (Genesis 17:10-14) or killing non believers (Deuteronomy 17:12, Exodus 22:19, Chronicles 15:12-13 Deuteronomy 13:13-19 etc etc). Homosexuality gets a few fleeting mentions in the bible yet it seems to be at the forefront of a lot of conversation where religion is involved.

[wpj]

As long as he doesn't feel the need to smite someone for looking at his neighbour's cow in a covetting way or something

[hibsbollah]

Disagree. He has position and beliefs, and he isn't imposing them on anybody. Only beliefs that the majority agree with are liberal?

If he says 'homosexuality is a sin', he IS imposing those beliefs on us because he is a public representative. Calling someone a sinner because of his or her orientation is discriminatory. He can have those beliefs, but he cant have those beliefs and call himself a Liberal. A pluralist perhaps, but not a Liberal.

[snooky]

I always think if Jesus was around today he'd have more to worry him than whether 2 people of the same sex fancy each other. Some people in this country, especially a lot of the religious types, have an unhealthy obsession with what people get up to in their own bedrooms.

I wonder if the same people apply the same backward thinking to eating shellfish (Leviticus 11:9-12), having a foreskin (Genesis 17:10-14) or killing non believers (Deuteronomy 17:12, Exodus 22:19, Chronicles 15:12-13 Deuteronomy 13:13-19 etc etc). Homosexuality gets a few fleeting mentions in the bible yet it seems to be at the forefront of a lot of conversation where religion is involved.

I've always felt that Burning Bush story would have some appeal to Democrats - both times.

[beensaidbefore]

Cos life's not always fair.

Enlightened!

[GlesgaeHibby]

If he says 'homosexuality is a sin', he IS imposing those beliefs on us because he is a public representative. Calling someone a sinner because of his or her orientation is discriminatory. He can have those beliefs, but he cant have those beliefs and call himself a Liberal. A pluralist perhaps, but not a Liberal.

He's not imposing them, but he is being clear about what his beliefs are. Many don't agree, however he's not trying to force his beliefs onto anybody. Surely a liberal society should respect and tolerate the fact that we're all different and all hold different beliefs?

[Mantis Toboggan]

He's surely away because the Libs underperformed considering their resources.
But I agree that he's not a real liberal. Not actively opposing someone's individual freedoms isn't enough.

[Mantis Toboggan]

He's not imposing them, but he is being clear about what his beliefs are. Many don't agree, however he's not trying to force his beliefs onto anybody. Surely a liberal society should respect and tolerate the fact that we're all different and all hold different beliefs?

He thinks that the thing he doesn't believe in is morally and presumably legally wrong. How can that be liberal?

[snooky]

I sometimes think there's a touch of irony that sections of society complain that they are being victimised yet they 'victimise the victimisers' because their views are not as 'liberal'.
:tin hat:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

If he says 'homosexuality is a sin', he IS imposing those beliefs on us because he is a public representative. Calling someone a sinner because of his or her orientation is discriminatory. He can have those beliefs, but he cant have those beliefs and call himself a Liberal. A pluralist perhaps, but not a Liberal.

Surely the point of a free, liberal society is that anyone can hold beliefs. Discrimination is surely an action, not a belief?

If he believes gay sex is a sin, thats his business. Personally i think gay sex is pretty rank, big hairy backsides and all that doesnt float my boat - but i dont care if it does float others' boat.

Saying you must not hold certain beliefs is illiberal.

That said, i find it odd that an evangelical Christian, or any fundamentalist religous type could be a liberal, but maybe that is what he struggled with.

[500miles]

He's surely away because the Libs underperformed considering their resources.
But I agree that he's not a real liberal. Not actively opposing someone's individual freedoms isn't enough.

But he doesn't do that, he actually votes to promote individual freedoms, as in the case of same sex marriage.

[snooky]

I'm 100% liberally minded (small 'L') and I am all for people being allowed to live their lives as they wish whatever their religion, sexual orientation, political view, etc. While I don't favour a lot of other people's lifestyle and views, I accept that they are entitled to their freedoms. Unfortunately, there are people in all factions of society who think the world should revolve around them.

e.g. cyclists :tin hat: :offski: :greengrin

[Betty Boop]

I'm 100% liberally minded (small 'L') and I am all for people being allowed to live their lives as they wish whatever their religion, sexual orientation, political view, etc. While I don't favour a lot of other people's lifestyle and views, I accept that they are entitled to their freedoms. Unfortunately, there are people in all factions of society who think the world should revolve around them.

e.g. cyclists :tin hat: :offski: :greengrin

And taxi drivers ! :duck:

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm 100% liberally minded (small 'L') and I am all for people being allowed to live their lives as they wish whatever their religion, sexual orientation, political view, etc. While I don't favour a lot of other people's lifestyle and views, I accept that they are entitled to their freedoms. Unfortunately, there are people in all factions of society who think the world should revolve around them.

e.g. cyclists :tin hat: :offski: :greengrin

Are gay cyclists ok though?

[snooky]

Are gay cyclists ok though?

As long as they're not two abreast :aok:
(no pun intended - honest!)

[hibsbollah]

Surely the point of a free, liberal society is that anyone can hold beliefs. Discrimination is surely an action, not a belief?

If he believes gay sex is a sin, thats his business. Personally i think gay sex is pretty rank, big hairy backsides and all that doesnt float my boat - but i dont care if it does float others' boat.

Saying you must not hold certain beliefs is illiberal.

That said, i find it odd that an evangelical Christian, or any fundamentalist religous type could be a liberal, but maybe that is what he struggled with.

I think what you're missing is the word SIN. Saying homosexuality is 'a sin', like evangelicals do, is very different from you describing you 'not liking' the idea of gay sex. Saying it is a 'sin' is from a religious perspective means you are breaking God's law. Hence it's not just an opinion, it's a proscription on lifestyle. So he just isn't a liberal. He isn't. It's incompatible.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I think what you're missing is the word SIN. Saying homosexuality is 'a sin', like evangelicals do, is very different from you describing you 'not liking' the idea of gay sex. Saying it is a 'sin' is from a religious perspective means you are breaking God's law. Hence it's not just an opinion, it's a proscription on lifestyle. So he just isn't a liberal. He isn't. It's incompatible.

I see what you mean, but he can think its a sin in god's eyes all he wants, as long as that view doesnt impinge upon his, or his party's actions or he doesnt try and impose his views, then it isnt an issue. He accepts it is just his view, not that of wider society amd that individuals are free to decide for themselves - i.e. it is for individuals to decide what they see as morally appropriate, i.e. a liberal view of society

I do share your scepticism/suspicion of religious views amd liberalism in a wider sense, but his actions i believe suggest he has held to his liberal principles. Its one of the reasons i struggle with the compatibility of islam and western society, but that is a different issue!

[beensaidbefore]

He's not imposing them, but he is being clear about what his beliefs are. Many don't agree, however he's not trying to force his beliefs onto anybody. Surely a liberal society should respect and tolerate the fact that we're all different and all hold different beliefs?

Thats where it falls down. Religious intollerance is rife throughout society, especially within the lgbt community who see it and its follers as fair game.

Live and let live doesnt seem to work both ways despite the constant cries for equality, and fair treatment for all regardless of their lifestyle choices.

[Mantis Toboggan]

Thats where it falls down. Religious intollerance is rife throughout society, especially within the lgbt community who see it and its follers as fair game.

Live and let live doesnt seem to work both ways despite the constant cries for equality, and fair treatment for all regardless of their lifestyle choices.

Are religious people discriminated against to the same degree as LBGT people? I wouldn't say so

[beensaidbefore]

Im not sure, but some guy was just forced to quit his job beacuse society couldnt handle the fact he believes in God. Not sure how many lgbt have recently.

Its ok to publicly criticise someone for being not of sound mind for beilieving in the religious scripture, when the lgbt community are protected by law to prevent similar comments being passed about their beliefs and choices.

That doesnt seem right to me. Why? Because a gay person will be as likely to hold discriminatory views of a christian than the other way around.

Do you think that is fair?

[Mantis Toboggan]

It's fine to believe in something.
It's not fine to believe in something that is against the rights of other group of people.
You are ultimately defending a guy with homophobic beliefs. I can't particularly understand that.

[beensaidbefore]

It's fine to believe in something.
It's not fine to believe in something that is against the rights of other group of people.
You are ultimately defending a guy with homophobic beliefs. I can't particularly understand that.

Im not really defending any individual. Just highlighting what i see to be a huge helping of irony. The very people who we have tries to avoid discriminating against are now free to discriminate against anyone who doesnt share their belief.

Why, for example. would a gay person employ a christian who they may suspect of secretly thinking they are a sinner? If they failed to do so on those grounds that would be discrimination. Difference is that would be accepted and tollerated. Thats the bit i struggle with.

[Mantis Toboggan]

Im not really defending any individual. Just highlighting what i see to be a huge helping of irony. The very people who we have tries to avoid discriminating against are now free to discriminate against anyone who doesnt share their belief.

Why, for example. would a gay person employ a christian who they may suspect of secretly thinking they are a sinner? If they failed to do so on those grounds that would be discrimination. Difference is that would be accepted and tollerated. Thats the bit i struggle with.

What are they discriminating against exactly?
The right to subjegate gay people?

[easty]

Im not sure, but some guy was just forced to quit his job beacuse society couldnt handle the fact he believes in God. Not sure how many lgbt have recently.

Its ok to publicly criticise someone for being not of sound mind for beilieving in the religious scripture, when the lgbt community are protected by law to prevent similar comments being passed about their beliefs and choices.

That doesnt seem right to me. Why? Because a gay person will be as likely to hold discriminatory views of a christian than the other way around.

Do you think that is fair?

Nobody was forced to quit their job.

I also think you're completely wrong about your discrimination point. The LGBT community are protected by law because there's absolutely nothing wrong with how they live their lives. Tim Farron believes otherwise. Tim Farron is wrong. Without Tim Farron having the opinion that what the LGBT community do is a sin, there would be no issue whatsoever.

To take it to an extreme, society hates paedophiles, we know what they do is disgusting and wrong. Society is not discriminating against paedohiles. It's holding the correct opinion about them.

Tim Farron has not been discriminated against.

[beensaidbefore]

What are they discriminating against exactly?
The right to subjegate gay people?

I'm not sure I follow?

If a Christian doesn't get something because they are a Christian I think that amounts to discrimination. The same as if a gay person doesn't t it because they are gay. That is my point.

[easty]

I'm not sure I follow?

If a Christian doesn't get something because they are a Christian I think that amounts to discrimination. The same as if a gay person doesn't t it because they are gay. That is my point.

It's a choice to be a Christian and believe that being gay is a sin.

It's not a choice to be gay, and be judged by christians as sinners.

[beensaidbefore]

Nobody was forced to quit their job.

I also think you're completely wrong about your discrimination point. The LGBT community are protected by law because there's absolutely nothing wrong with how they live their lives. Tim Farron believes otherwise. Tim Farron is wrong. Without Tim Farron having the opinion that what the LGBT community do is a sin, there would be no issue whatsoever.

To take it to an extreme, society hates paedophiles, we know what they do is disgusting and wrong. Society is not discriminating against paedohiles. It's holding the correct opinion about them.

Tim Farron has not been discriminated against.

From the tone of your post, I take that you are suggesting that there is something wrong with the way that Christians live their lives. You go on to say without Tim farrons views there is no problem. That to me suggests that you are of the view, without Christians like him the world we would be better off. Are those fair assumptions?

[Mantis Toboggan]

From the tone of your post, I take that you are suggesting that there is something wrong with the way that Christians live their lives. You go on to say without Tim farrons views there is no problem. That to me suggests that you are of the view, without Christians like him the world we would be better off. Are those fair assumptions?

Theres​ something wrong with believing homosexuality to be a sin.
Do you think it's a sin?

[beensaidbefore]

It's a choice to be a Christian and believe that being gay is a sin.

It's not a choice to be gay, and be judged by christians as sinners.

So to even things up people discriminate back?

[easty]

From the tone of your post, I take that you are suggesting that there is something wrong with the way that Christians live their lives. You go on to say without Tim farrons views there is no problem. That to me suggests that you are of the view, without Christians like him the world we would be better off. Are those fair assumptions?

My old granny opens up the church every morning and goes round Broomie to deliver mass, or something, to people too sick to go to church that day.

I don't have a problem with people having a faith.

I have a problem with people of faith judging other people based on a few verses from the bible, verses they've decided are worth believing. When there's plenty in there they don't believe.

Your broader point about without christians the world would be better off (your words not mine), is probably true and false. Religion has been the cause of loads of the worlds problems. You can say religions done a lot of good, but I'd argue people can do good without religion.

[beensaidbefore]

Theres​ something wrong with believing homosexuality to be a sin.
Do you think it's a sin?

By lack of an answer, you actually answered it mate. Do you hate other religions just as strongly?

I'm not christian, and I'm not gay. I find it an interesting subject, beacause in some ways there are similarities between the passion expressed by their respective 'communities' in the sense that both are part driven by a sense of injustice, togetherness and a little bit hatred for anyone who doesn't share their view.

I like to let people get on with it a don't give a monkeys who or what you believe in. Perhaps that makes me the biggest sinner of us all.

[easty]

By lack of an answer, you actually answered it mate. Do you hate other religions just as strongly?

I'm not christian, and I'm not gay. I find it an interesting subject, beacause in some ways there are similarities between the passion expressed by their respective 'communities' in the sense that both are part driven by a sense of injustice, togetherness and a little bit hatred for anyone who doesn't share their view.

I like to let people get on with it a don't give a monkeys who or what you believe in. Perhaps that makes me the biggest sinner of us all.

I don't know if you know that you're wrong or not, but there is no similarity between a LGBT person being discriminated against by christians, and LGBT people telling christians they're wrong for calling them sinners. That's just not the same.

[beensaidbefore]

My old granny opens up the church every morning and goes round Broomie to deliver mass, or something, to people too sick to go to church that day.

I don't have a problem with people having a faith.

I have a problem with people of faith judging other people based on a few verses from the bible, verses they've decided are worth believing. When there's plenty in there they don't believe.

Your broader point about without christians the world would be better off (your words not mine), is probably true and false. Religion has been the cause of loads of the worlds problems. You can say religions done a lot of good, but I'd argue people can do good without religion.

Change religion to any other protected group and that post would have made you sound outrageous. Of course I understand your point, and to be honest there is a little bit of devilment in me as I'm not Christian. I just find it difficult that people find it OK to slag folk off for their beliefs, when the vast majority of the time there is no chance of knowing if they think it or not. Christianity is fair game for taking pot shots at in a way that Islam Judaism are not, on the matter of sexuality at least.

[beensaidbefore]

I don't know if you know that you're wrong or not, but there is no similarity between a LGBT person being discriminated against by christians, and LGBT people telling christians they're wrong for calling them sinners. That's just not the same.

You seem to be missing the point.

[Just Alf]

There was a bit on the news this week about a guest house up north being forced to remove a "heterosexual friendly" quote (amongst others to be fair) and have been forced to remove it from their website ... I'm dam sure I've seen "gay friendly/LGBT friendly" in advertising... I've actually stayed in a couple.
I think it's that sort of double standards that make these arguments harder

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

There was a bit on the news this week about a guest house up north being forced to remove a "heterosexual friendly" quote (amongst others to be fair) and have been forced to remove it from their website ... I'm dam sure I've seen "gay friendly/LGBT friendly" in advertising... I've actually stayed in a couple.
I think it's that sort of double standards that make these arguments harder

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
The same guest house has a history of discouraging male couples. Otherwise I'd agree with you.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Pretty Boy]

I don't 'hate' Christians. I hate the hypocrisy which influences how some so called Christians live their lives. I have a problem with these people cherry picking parts of the Bible they believe to be more important or relevant than others and I find those type of people uncharitable, unforgiving and hateful. Hardly Christian characteristics. I'd happily apply the same argument to Muslims, Jews and Jedi Knights who use their religion to justify their own prejudices if that makes some people feel more comfortable.

I have long tried to reconcile my own Catholic upbringing with my generally liberal outlook and it's not proven possible. In the current Pope I see a good man who is aware the Churches obsession around contraception, homosexuality and sexuality more generally is a problem that needs tackled. Sadly he is stuck with Cardinals and Bishops appointed by his 2 conservative predecessors who are obstructing change at every turn.

No Christian denomination has an obligation to be in step with modern society. However the continuation on the current path of social conservatism regarding 'personal morality' will see active participation in doctrinal Christian faiths continue to decline and their voice become increasingly irrelevant.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Theres​ something wrong with believing homosexuality to be a sin.
Do you think it's a sin?

I dont agree. Its his right to think that, just as it is my right to think otherwise. That is the essence of liberlism, personal freedom.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I don't know if you know that you're wrong or not, but there is no similarity between a LGBT person being discriminated against by christians, and LGBT people telling christians they're wrong for calling them sinners. That's just not the same.

Is holding a belief the same as discriminating against someone? Is there anything in Farrons past to suggest that he has treated gay people differently or unfairly?

[snooky]

Is holding a belief the same as discriminating against someone? Is there anything in Farrons past to suggest that he has treated gay people differently or unfairly?

It's really is hard to find a one-size-fits-all rule when it comes to acceptable standards of morals, attitudes, etc. as everyone is different.
'Liberal' to me means the acceptance that we all have different ideals and values and we should respect that.
If someone doesn't like a certain lifestyle (no matter what end of the spectrum) then that's their prerogative.
I dislike gin and no matter what legislation or pressure group tries to persuade me to like it, I won't.
That's not a great analogy, but I use it to try and make my point.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It really is hard to find a one-size-fits-all rule when it comes to acceptable standards of morals, attitudes, etc. as everyone is different.
'Liberal' to me means the acceptance that we all have different ideals and values and we should respect that.
If someone doesn't like a certain lifestyle (no matter what end of the spectrum) then that's their prerogative.
I dislike gin and no matter what legislation or pressure group tries to persuade me to like it, I won't.
That's not a great analogy, but I use it to try and make my point.

I agree.

Liberal values are about the centrality of the individual, and individualism.

Meaning it is just as acceptable to think gay sex is a sin, as it is to do a gary locke and have someone give you a golden shower.

Its up to people, and 'societal norms' are less relevant and less important than that individual freedom.

[nairn hibee]

I dont agree. Its his right to think that, just as it is my right to think otherwise. That is the essence of liberlism, personal freedom.
Don't know if it's a sin or not but it certainly isn't natural ,fed up of this gay love in ,our local school had a lgbt celebration day,can't see what's to celebrate ,and don't want my kids thinking its normal

[lord bunberry]

Don't know if it's a sin or not but it certainly isn't natural ,fed up of this gay love in ,our local school had a lgbt celebration day,can't see what's to celebrate ,and don't want my kids thinking its normal

I don't think it's anyone's right to judge what's normal. Teaching tolerance in schools can only be a good thing imo. It's not like you can teach someone to be gay, they are either gay or they're not.
When I was growing up anyone who was gay would be ridiculed and made to feel like a freak. Thankfully things have changed.

[snooky]

I don't think it's anyone's right to judge what's normal. Teaching tolerance in schools can only be a good thing imo. It's not like you can teach someone to be gay, they are either gay or they're not.
When I was growing up anyone who was gay would be ridiculed and made to feel like a freak. Thankfully things have changed.

Sorry, I have to disagree. I think I am 'normal' and everybody else is 'abnormal'. Works for me. :coffee:

[heretoday]

I didn't like the bloke anyway so to hell with him.

[snooky]

I didn't like the bloke anyway so to hell with him.

:confused:

[lord bunberry]

Sorry, I have to disagree. I think I am 'normal' and everybody else is 'abnormal'. Works for me. :coffee:
Na that can't be right. You're definitely not normal :na na:

[CropleyWasGod]

Don't know if it's a sin or not but it certainly isn't natural ,fed up of this gay love in ,our local school had a lgbt celebration day,can't see what's to celebrate ,and don't want my kids thinking its normal
What's being celebrated is the right of people to decide for themselves what is normal or natural.

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[Pretty Boy]

Don't know if it's a sin or not but it certainly isn't natural ,fed up of this gay love in ,our local school had a lgbt celebration day,can't see what's to celebrate ,and don't want my kids thinking its normal

I want my child to think 2 people being in love is perfectly normal. Their gender is irrelevant.

Each to their own though.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Don't know if it's a sin or not but it certainly isn't natural ,fed up of this gay love in ,our local school had a lgbt celebration day,can't see what's to celebrate ,and don't want my kids thinking its normal

Sorry mate, thats not what i was saying at all.

My point is i dont give a flying one what somebody else does, or doesnt think.

Some people may get their kicks from having their same sex partner wear a rudi skacel mask and do the five one on them - thats their business and nothing to do with you, i or 'wider society'.

But your opinion is obviously yours too. That, to me is what liberalism is.

[McD]

I want my child to think 2 people being in love is perfectly normal. Their gender is irrelevant.

Each to their own though.


Post of the year PB :top marks

[danhibees1875]

Don't know if it's a sin or not but it certainly isn't natural ,fed up of this gay love in ,our local school had a lgbt celebration day,can't see what's to celebrate ,and don't want my kids thinking its normal

What a load of nonsense.

[pontius pilate]

Whilst I agree that anyone has the right to be in love with any other person regardless of sex colour or religion it's more where does it stop?. We now have lgbttqqiaap now that's alot of letters following on from what is a legitimate group of people

[snooky]

Whilst I agree that anyone has the right to be in love with any other person regardless of sex colour or religion it's more where does it stop?. We now have lgbttqqiaap now that's alot of letters following on from what is a legitimate group of people

Anybody care to have a guess as to where the 'liberal' line will be drawn?
Will there eventually be that 'step too far'? I shudder to think.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Don't know if it's a sin or not but it certainly isn't natural ,fed up of this gay love in ,our local school had a lgbt celebration day,can't see what's to celebrate ,and don't want my kids thinking its normal

You wouldnae have enjoyed the middle of Edinburgh yesterday.

[RyeSloan]

Whilst I agree that anyone has the right to be in love with any other person regardless of sex colour or religion it's more where does it stop?. We now have lgbttqqiaap now that's alot of letters following on from what is a legitimate group of people

Must admit the forever extending of LGBT thing is getting a bit bizarre..especially as the one you quoted is based around the word queer.

As for Farron...never convinced and has duly walked due to his crap showing and of course his odd inability to articulate why you can follow personal beliefs and still support others to have freedom of choice in theirs.

[Pete]

Whilst I agree that anyone has the right to be in love with any other person regardless of sex colour or religion it's more where does it stop?. We now have lgbttqqiaap now that's alot of letters following on from what is a legitimate group of people

That isn't a specific group, that acronym covers all the bases apart from those who are straight and don't care. I think.

As for where it stops? I suppose it won't stop when we still have people who believe that what another person does in the bedroom is "unnatural". You can't blame them for trying to prove a point when their physical acts are no more unnatural than Mr. Intolerant having a woman go down on him.

[CropleyWasGod]

That isn't a specific group, that acronym covers all the bases apart from those who are straight and don't care. I think.

As for where it stops? I suppose it won't stop when we still have people who believe that what another person does in the bedroom is "unnatural". You can't blame them for trying to prove a point when their physical acts are no more unnatural than Mr. Intolerant having a woman go down on him.
....the last of which is still illegal for any gender in many US states.

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[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

....the last of which is still illegal for any gender in many US states.

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Is it really??

[CropleyWasGod]

Is it really??
Apparently so.

As is anal.

Not sure how it would be policed though.....

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[snooky]

Apparently so.

As is anal.

Not sure how it would be policed though.....

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Undercover surveillance? :wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

Undercover surveillance? :wink:
Deep throat undercover

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[snooky]

Headline from "Highland News" ....
"Bishop Mark Strange welcomes vote to allow gay marriage"

Took me a few moments to realise that was actually his name.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Deep throat undercover

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That's mental eh! Fair to say those places are way down my list of potential relocation spots...!

[CropleyWasGod]

That's mental eh! Fair to say those places are way down my list of potential relocation spots...!
Read this carefully then..... 🙄

http://observationdeck.kinja.com/the-complete-list-of-weird-sex-laws-in-the-u-s-a-1485048155

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[Mantis Toboggan]

Don't know if it's a sin or not but it certainly isn't natural ,fed up of this gay love in ,our local school had a lgbt celebration day,can't see what's to celebrate ,and don't want my kids thinking its normal

Yeah **** these people and their happiness and wellbeing.
What's not normal is hating people for what they feel.
Natural is meaningless as far as modern society goes.

[Mantis Toboggan]

I want my child to think 2 people being in love is perfectly normal. Their gender is irrelevant.

Each to their own though.

Not each to their own though.
Anyone saying it's wrong and not natural can get ****ed.

[beensaidbefore]

Not each to their own though.
Anyone saying it's wrong and not natural can get ****ed.

How liberal!

[McD]

Not each to their own though.
Anyone saying it's wrong and not natural can get ****ed.


So it's ok for you to say it's wrong and not natural, but not ok for anyone to disagree with you?

Why does your opinion count more?

[danhibees1875]

So it's ok for you to say it's wrong and not natural, but not ok for anyone to disagree with you?

Why does your opinion count more?

He's not saying it's wrong and unnatural - he's pointing out that there is nothing wrong with it and anyone who thinks that it's wrong shouldn't just get a "well if that's your opinion, fair enough" reply.

[hibsbollah]

So it's ok for you to say it's wrong and not natural, but not ok for anyone to disagree with you?

Why does your opinion count more?

Because he's right.

The liberal shouldnt tolerate illiberalism. It's the 'fighting for peace is a contradiction' defence all over again.

[McD]

He's not saying it's wrong and unnatural - he's pointing out that there is nothing wrong with it and anyone who thinks that it's wrong shouldn't just get a "well if that's your opinion, fair enough" reply.


Ah, I think I may have misunderstood Mantis Toboggan's original post. Apologies to them.

I dont think there is anything wrong with 2 people who love each other. Quite the opposite :aok:

[Holmesdale Hibs]

I can see why the media asked him about gays but must be all manner of sins that people commit on a regular basis. Is working on Sunday not considered a sin? There must be thousands of people in the country that had a bit too much to eat or drink last night, which could be considered a form of gluttony. Are they all sinners too? Probably in as much that they do things forbidden in the bible and it we're interpreting 'sinner' as someone who disobeys the bible then TF is probably technically correct if he takes the bible literally. It was a question designed to trip him up.

I'm off the same opinion as most on here - nothing wrong with being gay and the sooner people start considering them as the same as everyone else the better.

[snooky]

I can see why the media asked him about gays but must be all manner of sins that people commit on a regular basis. Is working on Sunday not considered a sin? There must be thousands of people in the country that had a bit too much to eat or drink last night, which could be considered a form of gluttony. Are they all sinners too? Probably in as much that they do things forbidden in the bible and it we're interpreting 'sinner' as someone who disobeys the bible then TF is probably technically correct if he takes the bible literally. It was a question designed to trip him up.

I'm off the same opinion as most on here - nothing wrong with being gay and the sooner people start considering them as the same as everyone else the better.
If working on a Sunday is a sin, then all ministers & priests are sinners shirley?

[Holmesdale Hibs]

If working on a Sunday is a sin, then all minister & priests are sinners shirley?

Ha, true never thought of that, although maybe the church doesn't consider spreading the word of god as work. Dunno, I'm not religious.

[snooky]

Ha, true never thought of that, although maybe the church doesn't consider spreading the word of god as work. Dunno, I'm not religious.

If they are getting paid to do it surely by definition it's a job, no? :greengrin

[Holmesdale Hibs]

If they are getting paid to do it surely by definition it's a job, no? :greengrin

For me yes, and presumably the tax man too, but if the bible says working on the sabbath is sin I'm sure the church must have a more flexible definition.

Shows how dated some of the stuff in the bible is. I remember this scene from west wing: https://youtu.be/S1-ip47WYWc

[Betty Boop]

If working on a Sunday is a sin, then all ministers & priests are sinners shirley?

I'm a sinner too ! :wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

For me yes, and presumably the tax man too, but if the bible says working on the sabbath is sin I'm sure the church must have a more flexible definition.

Shows how dated some of the stuff in the bible is. I remember this scene from west wing: https://youtu.be/S1-ip47WYWc
The Bible doesn't say don't work on a Sunday. It says that we should remember the Sabbath, and keep it holy.

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[snooky]

The Bible doesn't say don't work on a Sunday. It says that we should remember the Sabbath, and keep it holy.

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Trust 'God' to find a loophole :greengrin

[Holmesdale Hibs]

The Bible doesn't say don't work on a Sunday. It says that we should remember the Sabbath, and keep it holy.

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Had a look in to this and it looks like your quite is the first part of one of the 10 commandments: http://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_sabbath.htm

But then there are other interpretations as well. Anyway, I came on to point out there was a lot of things in the bible that shouldn't be taken literally and as I had to google the 10 commandments I'm clearly not an expert.

[CropleyWasGod]

Had a look in to this and it looks like your quite is the first part of one of the 10 commandments: http://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_sabbath.htm

But then there are other interpretations as well. Anyway, I came on to point out there was a lot of things in the bible that shouldn't be taken literally and as I had to google the 10 commandments I'm clearly not an expert.
And...depending whether you are looking at it from a Christian, Jewish or Moslem perspective, the Sabbath could be any one of 3 days 😉

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[heretoday]

Tim Farron should have resigned before the election. He didn't do his party any favours hanging about.

[beensaidbefore]

And...depending whether you are looking at it from a Christian, Jewish or Moslem perspective, the Sabbath could be any one of 3 days 😉

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Not in my constituency!?!?