Well done Kezia!

[High-On-Hibs]

Telling people in Scotland to vote tactically for the tories has really paid off! Now they have enough seats to form the next government with Northern Irish extremists! :aok:

[marinello59]

Telling people in Scotland to vote tactically for the tories has really paid off! Now they have enough seats to form the next government with Northern Irish extremists! :aok:
She didn't do that.

[High-On-Hibs]

She didn't do that.

Yes she did...

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/807559/Kezia-Dugdale-Nicola-Sturgeon-SNP-Scottish-independence-poll-Ruth-Davidson
(http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/807559/Kezia-Dugdale-Nicola-Sturgeon-SNP-Scottish-independence-poll-Ruth-Davidson)
I even recall her saying on Sky News that who ever is "best placed" to beat the SNP candidate in each constituency should be supported.

[marinello59]

Yes she did...

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/807559/Kezia-Dugdale-Nicola-Sturgeon-SNP-Scottish-independence-poll-Ruth-Davidson
(http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/807559/Kezia-Dugdale-Nicola-Sturgeon-SNP-Scottish-independence-poll-Ruth-Davidson)
I even recall her saying on Sky News that who ever is "best placed" to beat the SNP candidate in each constituency should be supported.

Read the article. She didn't say anything about Labour supporters voting tactically.
You need to make your mind up. Did the SNP lose ground to the Tories because Labour voters voted tactically. Or because ( and this is my favourite) Labour voters voted for Labour? Or because every other party except the SNP were obsessed with Independence. Or because everybody except you was far too stupid to be trusted with a democratic choice? :greengrin

[High-On-Hibs]

Read the article. She didn't say anything about Labour supporters voting tactically.
You need to make your mind up. Did the SNP lose ground to the Tories because Labour voters voted tactically. Or because ( and this is my favourite) Labour voters voted for Labour? Or because every other party except the SNP were obsessed with Independence. Or because everybody except you was far too stupid to be trusted with a democratic choice? :greengrin

She clearly states that there are areas in Scotland were the tories are "better placed" to beat the SNP. Watch the video on the article. It's a clear endorsement for the tories in seats where the SNP can be defeated.

She should hand in her resignation ASAP.

[lord bunberry]

The campaign labour fought in Scotland has helped the Tories stay in power.

[Northernhibee]

Well done SNP! By ignoring 55% of the electorate and playing to the crowd you've driven Scots to vote Tory. Even the Tories couldn't manage that.

[marinello59]

She clearly states that there are areas in Scotland were the tories are "better placed" to beat the SNP. Watch the video on the article. It's a clear endorsement for the tories in seats where the SNP can be defeated.

She should hand in her resignation ASAP.

The leader of Scottish Labour should resign because the SNP lost seats to the Tories? Brilliant. I actually thought you were being serious for a second. :faf:

[High-On-Hibs]

Well done SNP! By ignoring 55% of the electorate and playing to the crowd you've driven Scots to vote Tory. Even the Tories couldn't manage that.

Driven Scots to vote tory? It's their own blind hatred of the SNP that has resulted in this outcome. Cutting of their nose to spite their face.

[High-On-Hibs]

The leader of Scottish Labour should resign because the SNP lost seats to the Tories? Brilliant. I actually thought you were being serious for a second. :faf:

The SNP lost seats to Labour, Labour handed seats over to the tories.

[marinello59]

The campaign labour fought in Scotland has helped the Tories stay in power.

You could also argue that the campaign the SNP fought had more influence on the outcome.:greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

She clearly states that there are areas in Scotland were the tories are "better placed" to beat the SNP. Watch the video on the article. It's a clear endorsement for the tories in seats where the SNP can be defeated.

She should hand in her resignation ASAP.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

She said that apart from a few seats, Labour was the only party that could beat the Tories. Yes, she acknowledged that in those few seats, the Tories were better placed (than Labour) to do so.

That's not even close to a recommendation to vote for them. It's simply a statement of fact.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale asked the SNP for a job as a researcher before launching her political career.
The Sun reported that Ms Dugdale contacted a senior SNP MSP in February 2003 during her final year studying law at Aberdeen University to offer her services as a researcher free of charge.
She contacted the MSP again after she'd finished her studies in June 2003, stating the role would be 'be useful before starting a master's degree in politics'.
However, Ms Dugdale was told that there were no vacancies available at the time.

She went on to study politics at university in Edinburgh before getting a job as a researcher with Scottish Labour.


jeez kezia, talk about a woman scorned and all that :hilarious

[Slavers]

For some it seems that is just too bitter a pill to swallow that it is the SNP & Nicola Sturgeon that are one of the main reasons that Tories have surged in Scotland.

So they will blame everyone else and anything else just so they don't need to face up to the reality that indyref 2 was not wanted by the majority of Scottish people and it was the SNP that drove people into the hands of the Tories in Scotland.

[lord bunberry]

You could also argue that the campaign the SNP fought had more influence on the outcome.:greengrin

There's no doubt it did. The snp allowed the other 2 to make the election a referendum decider. I very much doubt we'll have a referendum now and we have another Tory government. The worst possible outcome for what I believe in.

[Pretty Boy]

Was there such a tantrum when the SNP where the beneficiaries of much of the electorate voting on the basis of their constituional viewpoint in 2015?

[marinello59]

Was there such a tantrum when the SNP where the beneficiaries of much of the electorate voting on the basis of their constituional viewpoint in 2015?

Some of the stuff on social media is pretty ugly. The party leadership have played it well so far though.

[lord bunberry]

Was there such a tantrum when the SNP where the beneficiaries of much of the electorate voting on the basis of their constituional viewpoint in 2015?

Tantrum? People saying things as they see them is hardly a tantrum.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Dugdale is a very poor leader. Labour should replace her.

[marinello59]

Dugdale is a very poor leader. Labour should replace her.

That's a whole different argument. I don't think she will be in position much longer.

[marinello59]

Tantrum? People saying things as they see them is hardly a tantrum.

I think it was aimed more at the OP than you.

[Pretty Boy]

Tantrum? People saying things as they see them is hardly a tantrum.
There's plenty people making valid points. There's also borderline hysteria going on.

There's numerous reasons why people voted in the way they did and all the 'traitors' stuff that's coming out again is piss poor and fine well the more level headed SNP supporters know it. Put into historical context many of the Tory gains in certain constituencies are far from as shocking as they are being painted. That's being ignored in favour of the 'all unionists together' card that is being played. The fact the SNP have enjoyed a lot of success painting Labour as the enemy in the last few years probably has a lot to do with it.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[lord bunberry]

There's plenty people making valid points. There's also borderline hysteria going on.

There's numerous reasons why people voted in the way they did and all the 'traitors' stuff that's coming out again is piss poor and fine well the more level headed SNP supporters know it. Put into historical context many of the Tory gains in certain constituencies are far from as shocking as they are being painted. That's being ignored in favour of the 'all unionists together' card that is being played. The fact the SNP have enjoyed a lot of success painting Labour as the enemy in the last few years probably has a lot to do with it.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
I'm guessing you're talking about social media as a whole rather than just on here.

[Pretty Boy]

I'm guessing you're talking about social media as a whole rather than just on here.
Bit of both. Primarily social media but it hardly takes Columbo to work out who I am referencing on here.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[Northernhibee]

Driven Scots to vote tory? It's their own blind hatred of the SNP that has resulted in this outcome. Cutting of their nose to spite their face.

Believe me, it's not "blind" hatred. Many have reasons for wanting the SNP out and for me the possibility of an indyref is only low on the agenda.

Until the nationalists realise that people didn't vote "no" because they were scared or criticism of the SNP isn't just aimless or misguided the slide will continue. If they offered a credible socialist agenda I'd consider voting for them but on the times I've had a chance to speak to a prominent SNP member I don't feel listened to or represented. That's a big reason why people were prepared to vote tactically to get rid as I know I'm not alone in this.

[ronaldo7]

Believe me, it's not "blind" hatred. Many have reasons for wanting the SNP out and for me the possibility of an indyref is only low on the agenda.

Until the nationalists realise that people didn't vote "no" because they were scared or criticism of the SNP isn't just aimless or misguided the slide will continue. If they offered a credible socialist agenda I'd consider voting for them but on the times I've had a chance to speak to a prominent SNP member I don't feel listened to or represented. That's a big reason why people were prepared to vote tactically to get rid as I know I'm not alone in this.

That'll be the one that Jeremy copied and pasted. Stuff that's already implemented here in Scotland. He was correct to do so.

More to do of course, and it may just focus minds in the SNP to drive further left.

[Northernhibee]

That'll be the one that Jeremy copied and pasted. Stuff that's already implemented here in Scotland. He was correct to do so.

More to do of course, and it may just focus minds in the SNP to drive further left.
:faf: **** me you are deluded.

[marinello59]

:faf: **** me you are deluded.

It looks like Kezia should be sacked because the SNP lost seats to the Tories and Nicola Sturgeon deserves the credit for Corbyn's gains. :greengrin

[pacoluna]

Well done SNP! By ignoring 55% of the electorate and playing to the crowd you've driven Scots to vote Tory. Even the Tories couldn't manage that.

SNP vote only 1.7% down... Tories revival down to tactical voting promoted by kezia. Disgrace

[Hibbyradge]

SNP vote only 1.7% down... Tories revival down to tactical voting promoted by kezia. Disgrace

No matter how many threads you post that figure on, the truth is that it was down by 13.1%.

That's a lot of tactical voting caused by one deliberately misinterpreted interview. :hilarious

[marinello59]

SNP vote only 1.7% down... Tories revival down to tactical voting promoted by kezia. Disgrace

It's 13% down.

[pacoluna]

It looks like Kezia should be sacked because the SNP lost seats to the Tories and Nicola Sturgeon deserves the credit for Corbyn's gains. :greengrin

Paint it all you like tories gained seats from through tactical voting from unionist parties. Thjs nice about SNP voters going tories is BS. 1.7% down in vote doesn't you lose that many seats, tactical by 3 party's does.

[Pretty Boy]

SNP vote only 1.7% down... Tories revival down to tactical voting promoted by kezia. Disgrace

13.1% down. Reference about a 3rd away down this article:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-40192707

Just for clarity as I wouldn't want you accidentally continuing to preach false figures.

[stantonhibby]

Paint it all you like tories gained seats from through tactical voting from unionist parties. Thjs nice about SNP voters going tories is BS. 1.7% down in vote doesn't you lose that many seats, tactical by 3 party's does.

If it wasn't for that pesky electorate.....

[pacoluna]

It's 13% down.
I'm talking about UK as a whole.

[marinello59]

Paint it all you like tories gained seats from through tactical voting from unionist parties. Thjs nice about SNP voters going tories is BS. 1.7% down in vote doesn't you lose that many seats, tactical by 3 party's does.

Yet again... the SNP vote is down by 13%. Why are you insisting on repeating that lie?

[marinello59]

I'm talking about UK as a whole.

Good grief. :faf:

[Hibbyradge]

I'm talking about UK as a whole.

FFS :faf:

Edit: it's true though. The SNP didn't lose a single vote or seat in England, wales or Northern Ireland.

Astonishing performance.

[stantonhibby]

I'm talking about UK as a whole.

Desperate stuff.

[Pretty Boy]

I'm talking about UK as a whole.

FFS you can't actually be serious.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I'm talking about UK as a whole.


Come on now, you know that's meaningless, when the party doesn't stand across the UK. It was a very bad election for the SNP, but not disastrous. They still have more MPs than all other parties combined and won the popular vote. It was always impossible to hold 56 seats, but 35 is still very healthy and could well increase again in the future. Whilst last night may have delayed a second referendum, at some point there is going to be one.

[Moulin Yarns]

Come on now, you know that's meaningless, when the party doesn't stand across the UK. It was a very bad election for the SNP, but not disastrous. They still have more MPs than all other parties combined and won the popular vote. It was always impossible to hold 56 seats, but 35 is still very healthy and could well increase again in the future. Whilst last night may have delayed a second referendum, at some point there is going to be one.

2nd highest seats won in a UK election by the snp. Ever.

[Pete]

Dugdale is a very poor leader. Labour should replace her.

:agree:

We'll never know now but a strong figurehead up here is a must for the next campaign.

[pacoluna]

As said before the SNP where always going to lose seats. However tactical voting which was promoted by all unionist parties worked a treat. It represents the constitutional divide. But hey indyref2 yes dead even though just like on scotgov SNP have more seats than all other unionist party's put together. I understand their is going to be bias but from any outsider looking in the SNP are the party with clearly the most power in scotgov and WM.

[makaveli1875]

Paint it all you like tories gained seats from through tactical voting from unionist parties. Thjs nice about SNP voters going tories is BS. 1.7% down in vote doesn't you lose that many seats, tactical by 3 party's does.

50% into 37% does not make 1.7%

you must have went to the SNP school of numeracy :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

As said before the SNP where always going to lose seats. However tactical voting which was promoted by all unionist parties worked a treat. It represents the constitutional divide. But hey indyref2 yes dead.

It was not promoted by Labour.

However:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/19/scottish-greens-tactical-voting-block-conservatives-general-election

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/19/ruth-davidson-scottish-labour-supporters-should-vote-tory-stop/

[ronaldo7]

:faf: **** me you are deluded.

Can you direct me to those policies which were different?

[pacoluna]

It was not promoted by Labour.

However:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/19/scottish-greens-tactical-voting-block-conservatives-general-election

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/19/ruth-davidson-scottish-labour-supporters-should-vote-tory-stop/

They were all at it, but its a sad day when Labour voters turn to tories. I wonder if these tactical voters are happy that they cut SNPs seats down or disappointed that they've cut down the chance of Labour forming gvment. It's bit them in the arse big time.

[marinello59]

They were all at it, but its a sad day when Labour voters turn to tories. I wonder if these tactical voters are happy that they cut SNPs seats down or disappointed that they've cut down the chance of Labour forming gvment. It's bit them in the arse big time.

It was the tactical voting against the SNP in Maidenhead that did it. :agree:

[Hibrandenburg]

There's no doubt it did. The snp allowed the other 2 to make the election a referendum decider. I very much doubt we'll have a referendum now and we have another Tory government. The worst possible outcome for what I believe in.

I don't get this line of thinking. The SNP hold more seats in Holyrood than any other party and have more MPs in Westminster than all the other parties put together. This would have been considered sensational 10 years ago.

[Hibbyradge]

They were all at it

No, Labour wasn't "at it". You may want that to have been the case, but it wasn't and, like your 1.7% posts, no matter how often you say it, it won't become true.


its a sad day when Labour voters turn to tories.

It was SNP voters that turned to the Tories. That's why their share went down by 13%, the same amount as the Tories gained.


I wonder if these tactical voters are happy that they cut SNPs seats down or disappointed that they've cut down the chance of Labour forming gvment. It's bit them in the arse big time.

The folk who voted conservative will be pleased they now have MPs. Same applies to Labour voters.

Your tactical voters are a myth, a comfort blanket, if you will.

[Mon Dieu4]

Believe it or not the SNP down 1.7% over the whole UK was on the BBC ticker all morning, so the people mentioning were telling the truth, when I saw it it took me a while to see what it meant

[overdrive]

I'm talking about UK as a whole.

I think you need to learn how percentages work.

[Hibrandenburg]

No, Labour wasn't "at it". You may want that to have been the case, but it wasn't and, like your 1.7% posts, no matter how often you say it, it won't become true.



It was SNP voters that turned to the Tories. That's why their share went down by 13%, the same amount as the Tories gained.



The folk who voted conservative will be pleased they now have MPs. Same applies to Labour voters.

Your tactical voters are a myth, a comfort blanket, if you will.

I hold the vote swappers responsible. :wink:

[McD]

It's sad but unsurprising how some people's idea of democracy is to belittle other people's choices and call them all sorts, all because their opinion is different from their own.

[pacoluna]

No, Labour wasn't "at it". You may want that to have been the case, but it wasn't and, like your 1.7% posts, no matter how often you say it, it won't become true.



It was SNP voters that turned to the Tories. That's why their share went down by 13%, the same amount as the Tories gained.



The folk who voted conservative will be pleased they now have MPs. Same applies to Labour voters.

Your tactical voters are a myth, a comfort blanket, if you will.
Comfort blanket? it's usually the opposition who use that.

[ronaldo7]

Believe it or not the SNP down 1.7% over the whole UK was on the BBC ticker all morning, so the people mentioning were telling the truth, when I saw it it took me a while to see what it meant

Never trust the BBC.:wink:

[makaveli1875]

Comfort blanket? it's usually the opposition who use that.

what happened to Alex 'the arrogant tories will never take my seat' Salmond ? is that kezias fault too :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

I hold the vote swappers responsible. :wink:

:hilarious

:thumbsup:

[Hibbyradge]

Comfort blanket? it's usually the opposition who use that.

Is it? I thought they were used by people who need comforting. Like you.

You don't want to accept that the SNP's popularity had waned to such a degree that they lost 21 seats, so your comfort blanket is to invent tactical voting.

Big bad Kezia did it. Except she didn't.

[pacoluna]

what happened to Alex 'the arrogant tories will never take my seat' Salmond ? is that kezias fault too :greengrin

He'll be back. The most iconic Scottish politician there has ever been. Level of political engagement in Scotland particularly within my generation he has generated will never be forgotten and won't go away. A political giant.

[Hibernia&Alba]

He'll be back. The most iconic Scottish politician there has ever been. Level of political engagement in Scotland particularly within my generation he has generated will never be forgotten and won't go away. A political giant.

He'll get a seat somewhere if he wants one. Whatever one's view of independence, nobody can doubt Salmond's place in Scottish politics.

[ronaldo7]

what happened to Alex 'the arrogant tories will never take my seat' Salmond ? is that kezias fault too :greengrin

One of the sad things to see today, is Labour supporters on my timeline, happy that Salmond lost his seat to a Tory. :bitchy:

[pacoluna]

Is it? I thought they were used by people who need comforting. Like you.

You don't want to accept that the SNP's popularity had waned to such a degree that they lost 21 seats, so your comfort blanket is to invent tactical voting.

Big bad Kezia did it. Except she didn't.
Kezia is absolutely useless it's clear for everyone to see. Inept and naive, way out of her depth. Jeremy Corbyn should treat Labour like a branch again and get rid of her. His positive attitude towards politics and the prosperity he promotes, its like Chalk and cheese compared to that dark cloud.

[pacoluna]

One of the sad things to see today, is Labour supporters on my timeline, happy that Salmond lost his seat to a Tory. :bitchy:

Unbelievable

[makaveli1875]

Kezia is absolutely useless it's clear for everyone to see. Inept and naive, way out of her depth. Jeremy Corbyn should treat Labour like a branch again and get rid of her. His positive attitude towards politics and the prosperity he promoted its like Chalk e and cheese compared to that dark cloud.

Kezia is the next First Minister of Scotland , you better get used to her . She's going to be about for a while :greengrin

[pacoluna]

He'll get a seat somewhere if he wants one. Whatever one's view of independence, nobody can doubt Salmond's place in Scottish politics.
Someone should stand down as an msp so he can be nominated for a by-election. Demote swinney from the front line.

[Hibbyradge]

Kezia is absolutely useless it's clear for everyone to see. Inept and naive, way out of her depth.

So why are you trying to credit her with almost mythical powers of persuasion?


Jeremy Corbyn should treat Labour like a branch again and get rid of her.

I'm not sure I twig what you mean.

Are you trunk? Maybe just barking up the wrong tree.

[pacoluna]

So why are you trying to credit her with almost mythical powers of persuasion?



I'm not sure I twig what you mean.

Are you trunk? Maybe just barking up the wrong tree.

I resonate with Corbyn I find him as a principled politician. As said before I am willing to be patient with an indy ref2 it will happen in time. In the mean time I would consider voting for Corbyn but I could under no circumstances vote for Scottish Labour under kezia, who have nothing in common with him.

[Mr White]

It's sad but unsurprising how some people's idea of democracy is to belittle other people's choices and call them all sorts, all because their opinion is different from their own.

:agree:

[Hibbyradge]

I resonate with Corbyn I find him as a principled politician. As said before I am willing to be patient with an indy ref2 it will happen in time. In the mean time I would consider voting for Corbyn but I could under no circumstances vote for Scottish Labour under kezia, who have nothing in common with him.

Super. Thanks for sharing.

I'm much the same, but that's mostly a geographical issue.

However, why would a principled SNP supporter like yourself, betray the party to vote Labour?

Tactical?

[Mon Dieu4]

http://i64.tinypic.com/wwg9bp.png

Knew I'd seen it this morning and wasn't going mental, must have changed to -2 when the Kensington result came in, either way it's hardly anything to boast about

[Beefster]

Driven Scots to vote tory? It's their own blind hatred of the SNP that has resulted in this outcome. Cutting of their nose to spite their face.

What about all the SNP voters who switched to Tory? They all blind hate the SNP too?


jeez kezia, talk about a woman scorned and all that

I was reading earlier about how one of the deposed SNP MPs had been a Tory candidate, then joined Labour before switching to the SNP. Yet she was lauded by the party faithful. Asking for a job doesn't seem that bad in comparison.

[pacoluna]

Super. Thanks for sharing.

I'm much the same, but that's mostly a geographical issue.

However, why would a principled SNP supporter like yourself, betray the party to vote Labour?

Tactical?
I meant Scottish Labour politicians in a UK election. I am a principled supporter of the independence movement . it's not tactical, I like Corbyn and his ideas I would be voting for his policies obviously I disagree with him on the constitutional debate however

[Hibbyradge]

I meant Scottish Labour politicians in a UK election. I am a principled supporter of the independence movement . it's not tactical, I like Corbyn and his ideas I would be voting for his policies obviously I disagree with him on the constitutional debate however

Why wouldn't you vote SNP in a UK election?

[lord bunberry]

One of the sad things to see today, is Labour supporters on my timeline, happy that Salmond lost his seat to a Tory. :bitchy:

It is sad. We have another Tory government and the only people who should be happy about that are the Tories.

[lord bunberry]

I don't get this line of thinking. The SNP hold more seats in Holyrood than any other party and have more MPs in Westminster than all the other parties put together. This would have been considered sensational 10 years ago.

The problem is that Labour and the Tories are already claiming that every vote for them was s vote for the union.

[pacoluna]

Why wouldn't you vote SNP in a UK election?
Because corbyn can implement his polices in gvment if elected.

[marinello59]

One of the sad things to see today, is Labour supporters on my timeline, happy that Salmond lost his seat to a Tory. :bitchy:

That's awful. Don't you just hate it when people insist on gloating like that after an election result?
I wouldn't take any delight in a Tory win at all but there are some who will have been pleased to see Salmond taken down no matter who did it. That's only natural with a high profile figure like Salmond. I'm sorry to see him go, he made politics interesting. I remember him arriving as a fresh faced new candidate in Banff and Buchan. He nearly caused the local SNP worthies to have heart attacks when he described himself as a Socialist. :greengrin

[snooky]

Labour done well in spite of their Scottish leader rather than because of her. She always looks like a deer in headlights. That kinda find myself feeling sorry for her.

[marinello59]

Because corbyn can implement his polices in gvment if elected.

People would vote Labour for that reason?:confused:

[pacoluna]

People would vote Labour for that reason?:confused:

He asked the question.

[givescotlandfreedom]

Labour done well in spite of their Scottish leader rather than because of her. She always looks like a deer in headlights. That kinda find myself feeling sorry for her.

Inabree apart from the feeling sorry for here part. Corbyn's Labour is what Scottish Labour should be. I think they should bin her, the diet Tory experiment is over.

[lucky]

Great posts on this thread. Firstly,Kezia never told people to vote tactically, secondly she will lead the party in Scotland into the next Scottish parliamentary elections ,thirdly the SNP lost seats because Voters did not like their message on indey 2, finally I doubt many Labour activists cheered Tory victories over any other party but it's also insulting to SNP MSPs and the electorate to say one should resign so Salmond can get back into politics. Wonder if he'll accept a seat in the Lords?

[snooky]

Great posts on this thread. Firstly,Kezia never told people to vote tactically, secondly she will lead the party in Scotland into the next Scottish parliamentary elections ,thirdly the SNP lost seats because Voters did not like their message on indey 2, finally I doubt many Labour activists cheered Tory victories over any other party but it's also insulting to SNP MSPs and the electorate to say one should resign so Salmond can get back into politics. Wonder if he'll accept a seat in the Lords?
Tbh, I don't think there's a chance in hell he would sit with that parcel of rogues.

[BullsCloseHibs]

It'll stop a divisive second referendum.....
At least we won't see Dug tail or the Jock Tory Crankie or that twat Rennie on TV for a while. What agendas they had.... Absolutely consumed by bitterness towards a free Scotland. Shame on them.

[pacoluna]

That's awful. Don't you just hate it when people insist on gloating like that after an election result?
I wouldn't take any delight in a Tory win at all but there are some who will have been pleased to see Salmond taken down no matter who did it. That's only natural with a high profile figure like Salmond. I'm sorry to see him go, he made politics interesting. I remember him arriving as a fresh faced new candidate in Banff and Buchan. He nearly caused the local SNP worthies to have heart attacks when he described himself as a Socialist. :greengrin

Considering he was an original and leading member of the 79 group I doubt they would have had heart attacks.

[CropleyWasGod]

It'll stop a divisive second referendum.....
At least we won't see Dug tail or the Jock Tory Crankie or that twat Rennie on TV for a while. What agendas they had.... Absolutely consumed by bitterness towards a free Scotland. Shame on them.
Who or what is a Jock Tory Crankie?

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Hibernia&Alba]

Who or what is a Jock Tory Crankie?

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

I'm guessing wee Ruth

[stantonhibby]

I'm guessing wee Ruth

Yep....more top banter from an SNP bod.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm guessing wee Ruth
Ah ok.

I'm trying to work out where the bitterness is now. 🙄

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Hibernia&Alba]

Yep....more top banter from an SNP bod.

I prefer Davidshun :greengrin

[marinello59]

Considering he was an original and leading member of the 79 group I doubt they would have had heart attacks.

I'm aware of his involvement in the '79 group. You still didn't declare yourself a Socialist to your local SNP group at that time in Banffshire without causing some anguish, the local movement were mostly ex-Tories.

[Betty Boop]

Tbh, I don't think there's a chance in hell he would sit with that parcel of rogues.




Thought the same about Neil Kinnock.:rolleyes:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Someone should stand down as an msp so he can be nominated for a by-election. Demote swinney from the front line.

Swinney? The single most capable member of the Scottish Govt? That would be mental

[Hibbyradge]

Because corbyn can implement his polices in gvment if elected.

So you're not an SNP supporter after all.

[The_Sauz]

Every time I see Ruth Davidson, I keep thinking she is trying to impersonate Kim Jong-un:agree:

[cabbageandribs1875]

Every time I see Ruth Davidson, I keep thinking she is trying to impersonate Kim Jong-un:agree:


absolute nonsense


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ch4BV8wWwAAPgyy.jpg


but then again :eek:

[lord bunberry]

absolute nonsense


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ch4BV8wWwAAPgyy.jpg


but then again :eek:
Have they ever been seen in the same room together?

[cabbageandribs1875]

Have they ever been seen in the same room together?


they would both just deny it anyway

[lord bunberry]

they would both just deny it anyway
The plot thickens :greengrin

[JimBHibees]

Read the article. She didn't say anything about Labour supporters voting tactically.
You need to make your mind up. Did the SNP lose ground to the Tories because Labour voters voted tactically. Or because ( and this is my favourite) Labour voters voted for Labour? Or because every other party except the SNP were obsessed with Independence. Or because everybody except you was far too stupid to be trusted with a democratic choice? :greengrin

She clearly did.

[ronaldo7]

[QUOTE=lucky;5065952]Great posts on this thread. Firstly,Kezia never told people to vote tactically, secondly she will lead the party in Scotland into the next Scottish parliamentary elections ,thirdly the SNP lost seats because Voters did not like their message on indey 2, finally I doubt many Labour activists cheered Tory victories over any other party but it's also insulting to SNP MSPs and the electorate to say one should resign so Salmond can get back into politics.Wonder if he'll accept a seat in the Lords?[QUOTE]


:faf:

Is this the place Labour were going to abolish around 100 years ago.

[Jack]

Kezia let down the Scottish electorate. She failed to get behind Corbyn when that manifesto hit a sweet note not just the party but many of the disenfranchised Labour voters throughout the UK. Scottish Labour held a grudge.

It's got nothing to do with the SNP or the Torys or the ineffectual Libdems who probably in their own minds did better than Scottish Labour!

If the party in Scotland had performed close to how a Scottish Labour party should perform the odious Mayhem would not have been forming a government backed by the uber odious OO.

[Hibrandenburg]

She clearly did.

Yes, senior politicians need to be very careful about what they say to the media in case it's misinterpreted. I think in this case she was very careful. :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

Kezia let down the Scottish electorate. She failed to get behind Corbyn when that manifesto hit a sweet note not just the party but many of the disenfranchised Labour voters throughout the UK. Scottish Labour held a grudge.

It's got nothing to do with the SNP or the Torys or the ineffectual Libdems who probably in their own minds did better than Scottish Labour!

If the party in Scotland had performed close to how a Scottish Labour party should perform the odious Mayhem would not have been forming a government backed by the uber odious OO.

:agree: But you'll get pelters for this.

[lucky]

Kezia let down the Scottish electorate. She failed to get behind Corbyn when that manifesto hit a sweet note not just the party but many of the disenfranchised Labour voters throughout the UK. Scottish Labour held a grudge.

It's got nothing to do with the SNP or the Torys or the ineffectual Libdems who probably in their own minds did better than Scottish Labour!

If the party in Scotland had performed close to how a Scottish Labour party should perform the odious Mayhem would not have been forming a government backed by the uber odious OO.

Where did the party in Scotland not get behind Corbyn? Kezia backed Smith in the election which was her choice but the SEC and membership did. As for performing not how Labour should, not sure what you mean. The people of Scotland have spoken and that includes sending Tories to Westminster. Ideally I want to win all the seats buts that's not how it works in our countries democracy.

It was the loss of SNP seats that's given May an opportunity to stay at No10 not Labours failure to win more seats in Scotland

[wookie70]

I thought Kezia ran an extremely poor campaign, as did the Sturgeon and the SNP. The Tories ran a campaign purely based on the fear of Indy2 which was nothing to do with the vote but was enough to get the Unionists out. It is a mixture of all the factors. Labour got more votes because of Corbyn and maybe a wee bit from Kezia's Unionist stance, The Tories got the Unionist and the The Rangers vote and the SNP imo lost many votes because they simply are not far enough to the left for most Scots and they have not done as well as most hoped in the NHS and education. That further encouraged voters, like me, to return to Labour even though I would still vote for Independence in a heartbeat.

[The Harp Awakes]

Well done SNP! By ignoring 55% of the electorate and playing to the crowd you've driven Scots to vote Tory. Even the Tories couldn't manage that.

:faf::faf::faf:

Voted Labour most of my life but it's opinions like that which will stop me ever voting for Labour again. Absolute nonsense. I like Corbyn but Scottish Labour is rotten to the core. Forming Councils with Tories in Scotland to keep the SNP out. Dispicable for the people they are supposed to represent.

[Bristolhibby]

One of the sad things to see today, is Labour supporters on my timeline, happy that Salmond lost his seat to a Tory. :bitchy:

We are through the looking glass now!

[Bristolhibby]

Have they ever been seen in the same room together?

Her next policy is to agitate the West with nuclear weapons tests.

[snooky]

:faf::faf::faf:

Voted Labour most of my life but it's opinions like that which will stop me ever voting for Labour again. Absolute nonsense. I like Corbyn but Scottish Labour is rotten to the core. Forming Councils with Tories in Scotland to keep the SNP out. Dispicable for the people they are supposed to represent.
Agreed, THA. Scottish Labour is paper tiger just like it's UK master. The Tories record is appalling and their leader is 'weak and wobbly'. Labour should be ripping THEM to bits in House but instead all their energies are directed at knocking at the SNP. Deck chairs and the Titanic come to mind.

[McD]

Hypocrisy abound

[High-On-Hibs]

Here's a stat of some of the seats the tories gained in Scotland.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18951509_10212899253374065_4160385254249257652_n.j pg?oh=0a2f514f98f22178df74a2c30b82f9b7&oe=59E27812

If the Labour voters had swallowed their pride and voted SNP. The tories would not be forming a majority government with the DUP right now.

People can say whatever they want. But anything else said is a lie, pure and simple.

[marinello59]

Here's a stat of some of the seats the tories gained in Scotland.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18951509_10212899253374065_4160385254249257652_n.j pg?oh=0a2f514f98f22178df74a2c30b82f9b7&oe=59E27812

If the Labour voters had swallowed their pride and voted SNP. The tories would not be forming a majority government with the DUP right now.

People can say whatever they want. But anything else said is a lie, pure and simple.

If the SNP voters had swallowed their pride and voted Labour the Tories would not be forming a majority Government with the DUP right now.
People can say whatever they like but anything else is a lie, pure and simple.

[McD]

Here's a break down of some of the seats the tories gained in Scotland.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18951509_10212899253374065_4160385254249257652_n.j pg?oh=0a2f514f98f22178df74a2c30b82f9b7&oe=59E27812

If the Labour voters had swallowed their pride and voted SNP. The tories would not be forming a majority government with the DUP right now.

People can say whatever they want. But anything else said is a lie, pure and simple.


Wow! What arrogance, to presume you know exactly why people voted as they did!

maybe, just maybe, some people voted Labour because they actually wanted to vote for Labour. How dare they.

And people wonder why the SNP have less seats today...I see the inclusive society is being demonstrated well. Someone else used the word tantrum, I can see why.

[pacoluna]

she claimed her 7 MPs as a victory for the union. not socialism. the union. which should tell you everything.

[Hibbyradge]

Here's a stat of some of the seats the tories gained in Scotland.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18951509_10212899253374065_4160385254249257652_n.j pg?oh=0a2f514f98f22178df74a2c30b82f9b7&oe=59E27812

If the Labour voters had swallowed their pride and voted SNP. The tories would not be forming a majority government with the DUP right now.

People can say whatever they want. But anything else said is a lie, pure and simple.

Unbelievable arrogance and ignorance.

First you said that the electorate are all sheep who, unlike all knowing you, can't think for themselves and meekly follow what the media tell them to.

Then when Labour's popularity rises and, contrary to the demands of the MSM, they vote accordingly, you blame them for "not swallowing their pride".

It's always someone else's fault in your world.

[Hibbyradge]

she claimed her 7 MPs as a victory for the union. not socialism. the union. which should tell you everything.

:faf:

Please explain what this "everything" is.

[pacoluna]

:faf:

Please explain what this "everything" is.

She has sweat FA in common with Corbyn.

[Moulin Yarns]

Here's a stat of some of the seats the tories gained in Scotland.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18951509_10212899253374065_4160385254249257652_n.j pg?oh=0a2f514f98f22178df74a2c30b82f9b7&oe=59E27812

If the Labour voters had swallowed their pride and voted SNP. The tories would not be forming a majority government with the DUP right now.

People can say whatever they want. But anything else said is a lie, pure and simple.

On that premise we should have a government of the 'Did not vote' party, based on the chart. #just saying.

[Hibbyradge]

She has sweat FA in common with Corbyn.

That's silly and wrong.

Corbyn supports the union.

Corbyn didn't welcome the new MPs as a victory for socialism.

Corbyn is a member of the Labour Party.

And, in direct answer to the highlighted part in your post, when hot or nervous they both show signs of diaphoresis.

[High-On-Hibs]

It's ignorance to say that it's ignorant after i've presented figures.

To say "maybe they just wanted to vote Labour" doesn't wash. Because they either did so in the knowledge of knowing that it would land them with tory representation and a stronger possibility of a Tory government, or it's a complete misunderstanding of how the FPTP system actually works.

[High-On-Hibs]

That's silly and wrong.

Corbyn supports the union.

Corbyn didn't welcome the new MPs as a victory for socialism.

Corbyn is a member of the Labour Party.

And, in direct answer to the highlighted part in your post, when hot or nervous they both show signs of diaphoresis.

No. He supports the union (without Northern Ireland).

[Hibbyradge]

It's ignorance to say that it's ignorant after i've presented figures.

To say "maybe they just wanted to vote Labour" doesn't wash. Because they either did so in the knowledge of knowing that it would land them with tory representation and a stronger possibility of a Tory government, or it's a complete misunderstanding of how the FPTP system actually works.

Eh?

How could anyone know that? The Tories were supposed to be getting a landslide victory.

In any case, it is ignorant because the SNP lost their votes to the Tory party, not Labour.

The Tories share of the vote rose by almost exactly what the SNP lost, over 13%.

Labour share rose by a mere 2.8%.

The Tartan Tories went home.

[McD]

It's ignorance to say that it's ignorant after i've presented figures.

To say "maybe they just wanted to vote Labour" doesn't wash. Because they either did so in the knowledge of knowing that it would land them with tory representation and a stronger possibility of a Tory government, or it's a complete misunderstanding of how the FPTP system actually works.


No, it's ignorant to tell other people why they voted.

You've presented figures. Everything else is your interpretation of them.

People voting for Labour (or Green, or Lib Dem) voted that way for their own reasons, maybe some of them even agreed with the manifesto their chosen party laid out.

[marinello59]

It's ignorance to say that it's ignorant after i've presented figures.

To say "maybe they just wanted to vote Labour" doesn't wash. Because they either did so in the knowledge of knowing that it would land them with tory representation and a stronger possibility of a Tory government, or it's a complete misunderstanding of how the FPTP system actually works.

You need to look at the actual vote spread in each consituency to show what happened. Humour me by taking a wee look at these figures from Banff and Buchan. You could select one of the others but I've used this one because I used to live there and the boundary has barely changed in the past 30 years. You can check out any of the others, it's a similar story.

1983 when the Buchan Bulldog, Albert Macquarrie held the seat for the Tories. An odious old style Tory but very popular with the locals.
SNP -37%
Tory -39%
Lab - 8%

1987. Enter Alex Salmond. :greengrin
SNP -44%
Tory - 38 %
Lab -8%

We can fast forward to the last election but it's easy to find the other figures if you want. %ages varied a wee bit with Labour hitting a high of 14% in 2010 when Scots being Scots decided to increase their vote for Labour while the rest of the UK were ditching them.:greengrin

2015 The year Nicola Sturgeon told all to vote tactically for her to keep the Tories out.
SNP - 60%
Tory - 28%
Lab - 6%

Now this election where you claim it was a tactical vote for Labour that saw the SNP lose.
SNP - 39%
Tory -48%
Lab - 10%


Please tell me where the evidence is that it was Labour votes that won this seat for the Tories? Now I can only look at the figures and and say that my opinion is that it looks very much like SNP voters deserted for the Tories. I can also say that I know that there was a lot of SNP voters up there who were happy with the Brexit vote, in particular the fishing community who despise the common fisheries malarkey. (I can't remember the official name.:greengrin) They want an Independent Scotland outside the EU so the whole IndyRef2 campaign alienated them.
What is clear is that tactical voting by Labour supporters was not the game changer here. We can agree on that surely. It's the same story across the rural areas, they were traditional Tory areas in the past and many feel less of a connection to a party they see, rightly or wrongly, as being more concerned with the central belt. For Nicola Sturgeon to take those areas for granted though was a mistake.
As an aside I was struck by how similar the figures were for those three parties in 1987 when the SNP first took the seat and thirty years later.

[Jack]

It would have perhaps been better having a pop at those who didn't vote!

[marinello59]

It would have perhaps been better having a pop at those who didn't vote!

They were the real winners. They didn't care much beforehand and they don't care much now. :greengrin

[McD]

You need to look at the actual vote spread in each consituency to show what happened. Humour me by taking a wee look at these figures from Banff and Buchan. You could select one of the others but I've used this one because I used to live there and the boundary has barely changed in the past 30 years. You can check out any of the others, it's a similar story.

1983 when the Buchan Bulldog, Albert Macquarrie held the seat for the Tories. An odious old style Tory but very popular with the locals.
SNP -37%
Tory -39%
Lab - 8%

1987. Enter Alex Salmond. :greengrin
SNP -44%
Tory - 38 %
Lab -8%

We can fast forward to the last election but it's easy to find the other figures if you want. %ages varied a wee bit with Labour hitting a high of 14% in 2010 when Scots being Scots decided to increase their vote for Labour while the rest of the UK were ditching them.:greengrin

2015 The year Nicola Sturgeon told all to vote tactically for her to keep the Tories out.
SNP - 60%
Tory - 28%
Lab - 6%

Now this election where you claim it was a tactical vote for Labour that saw the SNP lose.
SNP - 39%
Tory -48%
Lab - 10%


Please tell me where the evidence is that it was Labour votes that won this seat for the Tories? Now I can only look at the figures and and say that my opinion is that it looks very much like SNP voters deserted for the Tories. I can also say that I know that there was a lot of SNP voters up there who were happy with the Brexit vote, in particular the fishing community who despise the common fisheries malarkey. (I can't remember the official name.:greengrin) They want an Independent Scotland outside the EU so the whole IndyRef2 campaign alienated them.
What is clear is that tactical voting by Labour supporters was not the game changer here. We can agree on that surely. It's the same story across the rural areas, they were traditional Tory areas in the past and many feel less of a connection to a party they see, rightly or wrongly, as being more concerned with the central belt. For Nicola Sturgeon to take those areas for granted though was a mistake.
As an aside I was struck by how similar the figures were for those three parties in 1987 when the SNP first took the seat and thirty years later.



:top marksTerrific post

[ronaldo7]

Eh?

How could anyone know that? The Tories were supposed to be getting a landslide victory.

In any case, it is ignorant because the SNP lost their votes to the Tory party, not Labour.

The Tories share of the vote rose by almost exactly what the SNP lost, over 13%.

Labour share rose by a mere 2.8%.

The Tartan Tories went home.

:lips seal:wink:

[Hibbyradge]

:lips seal:wink:

I have absolutely no idea what those emoji are supposed to mean.

[marinello59]

I have absolutely no idea what those emoji are supposed to mean.

They make perfect sense if you totally ignore the middle section of your post.
Keep up! :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

They make perfect sense if you totally ignore the middle section of your post.
Keep up! :greengrin

Nah. It's still a whoosh from me.

:tumble:

[marinello59]

Nah. It's still a whoosh from me.

:tumble:

Try totally ignoring the context of your opening question as well. You are really making this hard work. :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

Try totally ignoring the context of your opening question as well. You are really making this hard work. :greengrin

How could anyone know that the tartan Tories went home?

:lips seal:wink:

Big Ronnie knew? :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

You need to look at the actual vote spread in each consituency to show what happened. Humour me by taking a wee look at these figures from Banff and Buchan. You could select one of the others but I've used this one because I used to live there and the boundary has barely changed in the past 30 years. You can check out any of the others, it's a similar story.

1983 when the Buchan Bulldog, Albert Macquarrie held the seat for the Tories. An odious old style Tory but very popular with the locals.
SNP -37%
Tory -39%
Lab - 8%

1987. Enter Alex Salmond. :greengrin
SNP -44%
Tory - 38 %
Lab -8%

We can fast forward to the last election but it's easy to find the other figures if you want. %ages varied a wee bit with Labour hitting a high of 14% in 2010 when Scots being Scots decided to increase their vote for Labour while the rest of the UK were ditching them.:greengrin

2015 The year Nicola Sturgeon told all to vote tactically for her to keep the Tories out.
SNP - 60%
Tory - 28%
Lab - 6%

Now this election where you claim it was a tactical vote for Labour that saw the SNP lose.
SNP - 39%
Tory -48%
Lab - 10%


Please tell me where the evidence is that it was Labour votes that won this seat for the Tories? Now I can only look at the figures and and say that my opinion is that it looks very much like SNP voters deserted for the Tories. I can also say that I know that there was a lot of SNP voters up there who were happy with the Brexit vote, in particular the fishing community who despise the common fisheries malarkey. (I can't remember the official name.:greengrin) They want an Independent Scotland outside the EU so the whole IndyRef2 campaign alienated them.
What is clear is that tactical voting by Labour supporters was not the game changer here. We can agree on that surely. It's the same story across the rural areas, they were traditional Tory areas in the past and many feel less of a connection to a party they see, rightly or wrongly, as being more concerned with the central belt. For Nicola Sturgeon to take those areas for granted though was a mistake.
As an aside I was struck by how similar the figures were for those three parties in 1987 when the SNP first took the seat and thirty years later.


Brilliant post, if you'd bothered to mention that the Lib dems, Christine Jardine, got 19,030 people to vote for them in 2015, and their vote collapsed in 2017 to 6,230.

I would offer the thought, that most of those folk voted Tory, considering the Tories only polled 6,807 in 2015. Tactical voting? it's only an opinion though.:greengrin

Two jobs going in the Tory spin room.:wink:

Any reason you left out the second biggest Lib dem poll in 2015?

[ronaldo7]

I have absolutely no idea what those emoji are supposed to mean.

You've just told another poster "How could anyone know that", and then offer us that the "Tartan tories went home".

How could anyone know that?:greengrin

You only have to look at M59's post where he misses out the Lib dems who polled second in Gordon to Salmond with over 19,000 in 2015 to see where "some" of the votes came from.

[marinello59]

You've just told another poster "How could anyone know that", and then offer us that the "Tartan tories went home".

How could anyone know that?:greengrin

You only have to look at M59's post where he misses out the Lib dems who polled second in Gordon to Salmond with over 19,000 in 2015 to see where "some" of the votes came from.

The Gordon constituency is an interesting one, solid LibDem for years when Malcolm Bruce held it. As I said in my earlier post Banff and Buchan has had no major boundary change over the past 30 years. Gordon changed significantly after the last review when a chunk of Aberdeen City was added. That makes any direct comparisions difficult.
The charge I was answering from H on H and others was that Labour voters had indulged in widespread tactical voting to unseat the SNP. Of course you could say after looking at the Lib Dem that some votes come from there. I haven't heard the Lib Dems being accused of tactical voting so perhaps they just found the Tories a more attractive option and if that's the case the SNP need to be asking themselves why as I'm sure you would agree.

[Hibbyradge]

You've just told another poster "How could anyone know that", and then offer us that the "Tartan tories went home".

How could anyone know that?:greengrin

You only have to look at M59's post where he misses out the Lib dems who polled second in Gordon to Salmond with over 19,000 in 2015 to see where "some" of the votes came from.

I see. You're right.

Nothing should be read into the fact that Labour's vote share remained almost the same as in 2015 and the Tories went up 13 while the SNP dropped 13.

However, the other poster implied that people knew that the Tories would need Scottish seats, and they knew that by voting Labour, they'd be helping them achieve that which is nonsense.

I'm in an English pub now so wish me luck. 😉

[Beefster]

This is like the aftermath of the independence referendum. I'm unable to use any kind of social media without tantrums everywhere. I used to use the Internet for escapism. Now it's more depressing than real life.

[Hibbyradge]

This is like the aftermath of the independence referendum. I'm unable to use any kind of social media without tantrums everywhere. I used to use the Internet for escapism. Now it's more depressing than real life.

It's a lot better than that. :wink:

[jonty]

You need to look at the actual vote spread in each consituency to show what happened. Humour me by taking a wee look at these figures from Banff and Buchan. You could select one of the others but I've used this one because I used to live there and the boundary has barely changed in the past 30 years. You can check out any of the others, it's a similar story.

1983 when the Buchan Bulldog, Albert Macquarrie held the seat for the Tories. An odious old style Tory but very popular with the locals.
SNP -37%
Tory -39%
Lab - 8%

1987. Enter Alex Salmond. :greengrin
SNP -44%
Tory - 38 %
Lab -8%

We can fast forward to the last election but it's easy to find the other figures if you want. %ages varied a wee bit with Labour hitting a high of 14% in 2010 when Scots being Scots decided to increase their vote for Labour while the rest of the UK were ditching them.:greengrin

2015 The year Nicola Sturgeon told all to vote tactically for her to keep the Tories out.
SNP - 60%
Tory - 28%
Lab - 6%

Now this election where you claim it was a tactical vote for Labour that saw the SNP lose.
SNP - 39%
Tory -48%
Lab - 10%


Please tell me where the evidence is that it was Labour votes that won this seat for the Tories? Now I can only look at the figures and and say that my opinion is that it looks very much like SNP voters deserted for the Tories. I can also say that I know that there was a lot of SNP voters up there who were happy with the Brexit vote, in particular the fishing community who despise the common fisheries malarkey. (I can't remember the official name.:greengrin) They want an Independent Scotland outside the EU so the whole IndyRef2 campaign alienated them.
What is clear is that tactical voting by Labour supporters was not the game changer here. We can agree on that surely. It's the same story across the rural areas, they were traditional Tory areas in the past and many feel less of a connection to a party they see, rightly or wrongly, as being more concerned with the central belt. For Nicola Sturgeon to take those areas for granted though was a mistake.
As an aside I was struck by how similar the figures were for those three parties in 1987 when the SNP first took the seat and thirty years later.

I don't normally post on these types of threads but, going by the numbers, (of which the initial % only adds up to 84, but the final figures hit 97) it seems to me that the voters left tories and labour to vote SNP only to return again. After a fantastic win (by anyones standards) in 2015 the uptick for the SNP was never going to keep up.

Of other things to note :greengrin
I wish the parties had campaigned on their plans, and not the anti-referendum nonsense. Politicians really can be a bunch of dirty lying ********s. Yes, things have changed since the first one, (the 'vow', brexit etc) but I don't really understand what upsets so many people at the thought of a referendum? that they might not get the result they want? surely if they dont like it they can vote no?
yes it was decisive, but because it of that (in my experience anyway) discussion and interest in politics is much more widespread by more of the population.

It seems that running a govt is simiar to any large business (or football club). you can distribute as much cash as you like to various departments, but if your managers cant spend it wisely or use it effectively, you get **** for it. Even if you are providing more and more money each year.

I found the west fife re-count most interesting. It really does put into perspective the "im only one vote, what difference can that make" nonsense. A friend of mine, wife and son, who normally voted lib dem (for Menzies Campbell, not necessarily for the party) all voted SNP. If they'd had a change of heart..... who knows.

[marinello59]

Brilliant post, if you'd bothered to mention that the Lib dems, Christine Jardine, got 19,030 people to vote for them in 2015, and their vote collapsed in 2017 to 6,230.

I would offer the thought, that most of those folk voted Tory, considering the Tories only polled 6,807 in 2015. Tactical voting? it's only an opinion though.:greengrin

Two jobs going in the Tory spin room.:wink:

Any reason you left out the second biggest Lib dem poll in 2015?

Sorry I hadn't seen this post before I answered another one. The joys of a phone browser.:greengrin
Malcolm Bruce left a large residual LibDem vote in that constituency but it was though to be personal, hence the reason why Salmond took the decision to stand there, proof of what a good political operator he was/is. You can read my other reply if you want to avoid me having to repeat myself.:greengrin

[marinello59]

How could anyone know that the tartan Tories went home?

:lips seal:wink:

Big Ronnie knew? :greengrin

#bigronnieknew Trending on Twitter right now. :greengrin

[pacoluna]

So you're not an SNP supporter after all.

I'm an SNP voter.

[Hibbyradge]

I'm an SNP voter.

But you'll vote for Corbyn?

[Mibbes Aye]

The Gordon constituency is an interesting one, solid LibDem for years when Malcolm Bruce held it. As I said in my earlier post Banff and Buchan has had no major boundary change over the past 30 years. Gordon changed significantly after the last review when a chunk of Aberdeen City was added. That makes any direct comparisions difficult.
The charge I was answering from H on H and others was that Labour voters had indulged in widespread tactical voting to unseat the SNP. Of course you could say after looking at the Lib Dem that some votes come from there. I haven't heard the Lib Dems being accused of tactical voting so perhaps they just found the Tories a more attractive option and if that's the case the SNP need to be asking themselves why as I'm sure you would agree.

I think you're right to play down the notion that there was some sort of orchestrated mass tactical voting. There simply wasn't.

This forum isn't representative of real life in that firstly, it's a site for fans of one football team. That makes it tribal to begin with. Then you have a sub-forum that has political threads on it, mostly involving people with strongly-held views who often don't want to back down :greengrin

In real life though, people don't act as tribally or as definitively. It's probably more common in England but people genuinely do shift from Labour to Tory or vice versa and that's actually not unreasonable.

People also shift their opinion on things like independence. I have no proof but would bet my house that there will have been people who voted for independence in 1979 and who then voted to stay in 2014.

The threads on here make stuff appear very binary but the reality is most people aren't binary and don't treat their vote like an allegiance to a football team.

People do change their views and at different times and different stages, different parties will appeal more or less.

[cabbageandribs1875]

I don't normally post on these types of threads but, going by the numbers, (of which the initial % only adds up to 84, but the final figures hit 97) it seems to me that the voters left tories and labour to vote SNP only to return again. After a fantastic win (by anyones standards) in 2015 the uptick for the SNP was never going to keep up.

Of other things to note :greengrin
I wish the parties had campaigned on their plans, and not the anti-referendum nonsense. Politicians really can be a bunch of dirty lying ********s. Yes, things have changed since the first one, (the 'vow', brexit etc) but I don't really understand what upsets so many people at the thought of a referendum? that they might not get the result they want? surely if they dont like it they can vote no?
yes it was decisive, but because it of that (in my experience anyway) discussion and interest in politics is much more widespread by more of the population.

It seems that running a govt is simiar to any large business (or football club). you can distribute as much cash as you like to various departments, but if your managers cant spend it wisely or use it effectively, you get **** for it. Even if you are providing more and more money each year.

I found the west fife re-count most interesting. It really does put into perspective the "im only one vote, what difference can that make" nonsense. A friend of mine, wife and son, who normally voted lib dem (for Menzies Campbell, not necessarily for the party) all voted SNP. If they'd had a change of heart..... who knows.

you're not alone

[Hibbyradge]

I think you're right to play down the notion that there was some sort of orchestrated mass tactical voting. There simply wasn't.

This forum isn't representative of real life in that firstly, it's a site for fans of one football team. That makes it tribal to begin with. Then you have a sub-forum that has political threads on it, mostly involving people with strongly-held views who often don't want to back down :greengrin

In real life though, people don't act as tribally or as definitively. It's probably more common in England but people genuinely do shift from Labour to Tory or vice versa and that's actually not unreasonable.

People also shift their opinion on things like independence. I have no proof but would bet my house that there will have been people who voted for independence in 1979 and who then voted to stay in 2014.

The threads on here make stuff appear very binary but the reality is most people aren't binary and don't treat their vote like an allegiance to a football team.

People do change their views and at different times and different stages, different parties will appeal more or less.

Pish.

[Hibbyradge]

Pish.

Ha ha. Only kidding.

You're absolutely right. Good post.

[ronaldo7]

Sorry I hadn't seen this post before I answered another one. The joys of a phone browser.:greengrin
Malcolm Bruce left a large residual LibDem vote in that constituency but it was though to be personal, hence the reason why Salmond took the decision to stand there, proof of what a good political operator he was/is. You can read my other reply if you want to avoid me having to repeat myself.:greengrin

The whole premise of the discussion re tactical voting was on the "Unionists" voting tactically, not only Labour. For the life of me, I can't understand why your post #127 omitted the second placed party in Gordon on 19,000 votes, after all, it was Christine Graham who got the votes in 2015, and not Malcolm Bruce, he was long gone. Ukip never stood in 2017 either, I'd suggest their votes went Tory too.

People voted in their own way, and for their own reasons, good on them, at least they bothered, but to say their wasn't an element of tactical voting in the North east is disingenuous.

[marinello59]

The whole premise of the discussion re tactical voting was on the "Unionists" voting tactically, not only Labour. For the life of me, I can't understand why your post #127 omitted the second placed party in Gordon on 19,000 votes, after all, it was Christine Graham who got the votes in 2015, and not Malcolm Bruce, he was long gone. Ukip never stood in 2017 either, I'd suggest their votes went Tory too.

People voted in their own way, and for their own reasons, good on them, at least they bothered, but to say their wasn't an element of tactical voting in the North east is disingenuous.
:confused:
I think the smelling salts they gave you after Salmond lost his seat are still affecting you R. Read my post again and I didn't omit anything. I used Banff and Buchan as an example and explained why. You have made no comment on that post other than to try and shift ground.
The SNP lost seats because they failed to attract enough votes. That's entirely their own faiult. As for who got the votes in Gordon in 2015, I know fine well that Malcolm Bruce was well gone, I didn't say otherwise. More smoke screens.
As for the premise of the discussion check out the thread title and the OP. You are really off form tonight.

[ronaldo7]

:confused:
I think the smelling salts they gave you after Salmond lost his seat are still affecting you R. Read my post again and I didn't omit anything. I used Banff and Buchan as an example and explained why. You have made no comment on that post other than to try and shift ground.
The SNP lost seats because they failed to attract enough votes. That's entirely their own faiult. As for who got the votes in Gordon in 2015, I know fine well that Malcolm Bruce was well gone, I didn't say otherwise. More smoke screens.
As for the premise of the discussion check out the thread title and the OP. You are really off form tonight.

I was commenting on the North east, and tactical voting in general, but do concede that you mentioned B&B instead of my Gordon numbers.

[marinello59]

Richard Lochhead, SNP MSP for Moray has called for a period of reflection whilst they consider the reason's for SNP voters switching directly to the Tories. Somebody needs to tell him that was Kezias fault. :greengrin

[Jack]

Richard Lochhead, SNP MSP for Moray has called for a period of reflection whilst they consider the reason's for SNP voters switching directly to the Tories. Somebody needs to tell him that was Kezias fault. :greengrin

Joking aside I think Kezia, although a good Hibee, is not a good leader. The Scottish branch, given the success of the recent UK manifesto and with it Corbyn, need to consider their position. Are they part of the UK party or or a huffy wee side line?

Personally I'd like to see Scottish Labour do what Ruth the mooth is considering for the Scottish Torys but do the separate under the UK whip before they do. After that I'd like to see Scottish Labour with free thoughts on independence. I genuinely think that would put the SNP firmly back in their box with around a dozen MPs.

The SNP is a broad church. It's not surprising there will be voters going between the two (SNP/Tory) depending on the circumstances at the time of the vote i.e. not independence related.

I am absolutely flabbergasted at the extent of the switch at this recent election!

It's something the Torys will look to capitalise on, although the current Tory self destruction will make that very difficult, while the SNP will need to reflect on what happened for different reasons. It's all very well being the biggest party but their raison d'être is not to be the largest Scottish party in Westminster.

The SNP may need to consider that to achieve their goal it may be better to be a party of influence in the big pond rather than a thistle.

[High-On-Hibs]

Richard Lochhead, SNP MSP for Moray has called for a period of reflection whilst they consider the reason's for SNP voters switching directly to the Tories. Somebody needs to tell him that was Kezias fault. :greengrin

Perhaps you can ask Kezia why Labour didn't bother campaigning at all in my own constituency. Not one single leaflet through my door from the Labour Party. I did however recieve a bundle of Lib Dem leaflets (source of funding still a mystery) and one tory leaflet showing a graph that the lib dems were best placed to beat the SNP candidate.

Kid on she never played a hand in this if you want. But the reality is, she did not campaign in areas where other parties were much better placed to defeat the SNP.

[Geo_1875]

Perhaps you can ask Kezia why Labour didn't bother campaigning at all in my own constituency. Not one single leaflet through my door from the Labour Party. I did however recieve a bundle of Lib Dem leaflets (source of funding still a mystery) and one tory leaflet showing a graph that the lib dems were best placed to beat the SNP candidate.

Kid on she never played a hand in this if you want. But the reality is, she did not campaign in areas where other parties were much better placed to defeat the SNP.

Don't know where you are but in Edinburgh West the Lib Dems flooded me with leaflets. I even got cold called at home and on my mobile, from Chelmsford of all places.

The Tories sent a few with "Ruth Davidson's Candidate" instead of the candidates name on it. SNP sent plenty leaflets and a couple of phone calls.

Labour? Nothing at all.

[CropleyWasGod]

Don't know where you are but in Edinburgh West the Lib Dems flooded me with leaflets. I even got cold called at home and on my mobile, from Chelmsford of all places.

The Tories sent a few with "Ruth Davidson's Candidate" instead of the candidates name on it. SNP sent plenty leaflets and a couple of phone calls.

Labour? Nothing at all.

Snap.

I have Ronaldo coming here next week to paper my wee room with the LibDem leaflets. :greengrin

[pacoluna]

In 6 particular seats libdems lost over 53,000 thousand votes, tories gaining roughly the same amount. Maybe we should have a well done Willie thread :D

[stantonhibby]

Snap.

I have Ronaldo coming here next week to paper my wee room with the LibDem leaflets. :greengrin

Same here.

I don't think there has ever been a Labour MP in this constituency. Was Tory for years (Lord James DH) then Liberal. SNP won in 2015 and was always a straight fight between Lib-dems & SNP. I assume Labour concentrated their resources more on where they thought they had a chance of winning.

[CropleyWasGod]

Same here.

I don't think there has ever been a Labour MP in this constituency. Was Tory for years (Lord James DH) then Liberal. SNP won in 2015 and was always a straight fight between Lib-dems & SNP. I assume Labour concentrated their resources more on where they thought they had a chance of winning.

...which is entirely sensible.

Much more likely than the conspiracy theory that they stood back to allow the Tories or anyone else in.

[stantonhibby]

...which is entirely sensible.

Much more likely than the conspiracy theory that they stood back to allow the Tories or anyone else in.

Indeed.....all parties do it. I was surprised by how little SNP literature I got compared to the mountain of stuff from Lib-dems.

[marinello59]

Perhaps you can ask Kezia why Labour didn't bother campaigning at all in my own constituency. Not one single leaflet through my door from the Labour Party. I did however recieve a bundle of Lib Dem leaflets (source of funding still a mystery) and one tory leaflet showing a graph that the lib dems were best placed to beat the SNP candidate.

Kid on she never played a hand in this if you want. But the reality is, she did not campaign in areas where other parties were much better placed to defeat the SNP.

No comment on what Lochhead had to say about the reasons the SNP lost seats then?
In my constituency I received one Labour Party Leaflet and that was it. No sign of the candidate, no door to door canvassing, no street stalls in evidence. It was a straight fight between the SNP and Labour. The SNP won so using your logic Kezia is to blame.:thumbsup:
I love how you are now ramping up the conspiracy theory by suggesting now that Labour or other persons unknown may have financed LibDem leaflets. :faf:

[High-On-Hibs]

No comment on what Lochhead had to say about the reasons the SNP lost seats then?
In my constituency I received one Labour Party Leaflet and that was it. No sign of the candidate, no door to door canvassing, no street stalls in evidence. It was a straight fight between the SNP and Labour. The SNP won so using your logic Kezia is to blame.:thumbsup:
I love how you are now ramping up the conspiracy theory by suggesting now that Labour or other persons unknown may have financed LibDem leaflets. :faf:

You're the one jumping to that conclusion, I never said anything of the sort. Interesting.

[High-On-Hibs]

Don't know where you are but in Edinburgh West the Lib Dems flooded me with leaflets. I even got cold called at home and on my mobile, from Chelmsford of all places.

The Tories sent a few with "Ruth Davidson's Candidate" instead of the candidates name on it. SNP sent plenty leaflets and a couple of phone calls.

Labour? Nothing at all.

Same, Edinburgh West. There wasn't even any Labour or Conservative candidate boards up at my local polling station, just a Lib Dem and an SNP one.

[High-On-Hibs]

...which is entirely sensible.

Much more likely than the conspiracy theory that they stood back to allow the Tories or anyone else in.

Not one leaflet. Not one single leaflet. No mention of them at my polling station either. Completely non existent.

[CropleyWasGod]

Same, Edinburgh West. There wasn't even any Labour or Conservative candidate boards up at my local polling station, just a Lib Dem and an SNP one.

The snap election caught most people by surprise, and must have been a drain on the parties' resources.

It wouldn't make commercial sense to spend money on unnecessary stuff in areas of low priority.

[marinello59]

Perhaps you can ask Kezia why Labour didn't bother campaigning at all in my own constituency. Not one single leaflet through my door from the Labour Party. I did however recieve a bundle of Lib Dem leaflets (source of funding still a mystery) and one tory leaflet showing a graph that the lib dems were best placed to beat the SNP candidate.

Kid on she never played a hand in this if you want. But the reality is, she did not campaign in areas where other parties were much better placed to defeat the SNP.


You're the one jumping to that conclusion, I never said anything of the sort. Interesting.

OK, you never even implied it. :greengrin

So what do you think about what Lochhead said?

[High-On-Hibs]

OK, you never even implied it. :greengrin

So what do you think about what Lochhead said?

I said it was a mystery. But you seem to have an idea.

[marinello59]

The snap election caught most people by surprise, and must have been a drain on the parties' resources.

It wouldn't make commercial sense to spend money on unnecessary stuff in areas of low priority.

Even when they were an election winning machine with much bigger resources Labour didn't waste money on unwinnable seats.

[marinello59]

I said it was a mystery. But you seem to have an idea.

Eh? You made the comment, perhaps you'd care to expand on it, you must have been implying something, otherwise why say it?

Anyway, what so you think about the reasons Lochhead gave for the SNP losing in Moray?

[High-On-Hibs]

Eh? You made the comment, perhaps you'd care to expand on it, you must have been implying something, otherwise why say it?

Anyway, what so you think about the reasons Lochhead gave for the SNP losing in Moray?

I said it was a mystery, so I don't know where the funding came from, hense why I called it a mystery. But you offered up your own idea on what may have occured which is perfectly ok.

He gave his opinion on why he felt the SNP lost seats claiming that they did not listen to what people wanted. I agree with him. It was a huge mistake for the SNP to say that this general election wasn't about independence.

[CropleyWasGod]

I said it was a mystery, so I don't know where the funding came from, hense why I called it a mystery. But you offered up your own idea on what may have occured which is perfectly ok.

He gave his opinion on why he felt the SNP lost seats claiming that they did not listen to what people wanted. I agree with him. It was a huge mistake for the SNP to say that this general election wasn't about independence.

I don't really see it as a mystery.

Just as Labour didn't see Edinburgh Western as a priority, and thus didn't spend much money on it, the Lib Dems saw it otherwise.

[marinello59]

I said it was a mystery, so I don't know where the funding came from, hense why I called it a mystery. But you offered up your own idea on what may have occured which is perfectly ok.

He gave his opinion on why he felt the SNP lost seats claiming that they did not listen to what people wanted. I agree with him. It was a huge mistake for the SNP to say that this general election wasn't about independence.

Nope, I just mentioned what you had clearly implied.

[Hibbyradge]

What a load of nonsense being spouted on this thread. Again.

I never received a Labour it Greens leaflet through my door.

Labour were second to the Tories here.

Make of that what you will, but it's highly unlikely Kezia was involved. :rolleyes:

[marinello59]

What a load of nonsense being spouted on this thread. Again.

I never received a Labour it Greens leaflet through my door.

Labour were second to the Tories here.

Make of that what you will, but it's highly unlikely Kezia was involved. :rolleyes:

I wouldn't be so sure. Didn't she visit Hilary Clinton before the US Presidential election? Her evil powers reach further than you think.

[Hibbyradge]

I wouldn't be so sure. Didn't she visit Hilary Clinton before the US Presidential election? Her evil powers reach further than you think.

She deliberately didn't campaign in areas Trump was more likely to beat the Democrats.

FACT.

[ronaldo7]

Snap.

I have Ronaldo coming here next week to paper my wee room with the LibDem leaflets. :greengrin

Costs have increased due to Brexit :wink::aok:

[lucky]

Perhaps you can ask Kezia why Labour didn't bother campaigning at all in my own constituency. Not one single leaflet through my door from the Labour Party. I did however recieve a bundle of Lib Dem leaflets (source of funding still a mystery) and one tory leaflet showing a graph that the lib dems were best placed to beat the SNP candidate.

Kid on she never played a hand in this if you want. But the reality is, she did not campaign in areas where other parties were much better placed to defeat the SNP.

Every party gets to send 1 leaflet out delivered for free by the Royal Mail. So it's unlikely your household never got any. Also Kezia does not control how local campaigns are run. She like all party leaders have control over the national campaign. But don't let the truth get in the way of your conspiracy stories

[Just Alf]

Every party gets to send 1 leaflet out delivered for free by the Royal Mail. So it's unlikely your household never got any. Also Kezia does not control how local campaigns are run. She like all party leaders have control over the national campaign. But don't let the truth get in the way of your conspiracy stories
The free bit... I can understand that when the PO was government owned but is it still the case now? Can't see private share holders being happy about that sort of expenditure :-/



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

The free bit... I can understand that when the PO was government owned but is it still the case now? Can't see private share holders being happy about that sort of expenditure :-/



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

It's still the case now, it's written in to the Representation of the People Act.

[lucky]

The free bit... I can understand that when the PO was government owned but is it still the case now? Can't see private share holders being happy about that sort of expenditure :-/



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
It's free to the political parties and is paid for by the government

[Just Alf]

It's still the case now, it's written in to the Representation of the People Act.


It's free to the political parties and is paid for by the government

:aok:

when i was at work i suddenly guessed it was probably something to do with the universal service provision that's incumbent on the post office.

[snooky]

I don't know why but, there's something about the title of this thread really irks me.

[Mantis Toboggan]

I don't know why but, there's something about the title of this thread really irks me.

The idea of Kezia having done at all well in this election is irk worthy I would say.

[marinello59]

A direct response to seats being lost in the rural heartlands?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-40357585

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

A direct response to seats being lost in the rural heartlands?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-40357585

SNP and tories teaming-up to roll-back legislation on animal rigjts.

Jeezo, at this rate the FM will be coming into the parliament in a tweed jacket with a freshly mauled fox over her shoulder...

[Moulin Yarns]

SNP and tories teaming-up to roll-back legislation on animal rigjts.

Jeezo, at this rate the FM will be coming into the parliament in a tweed jacket with a freshly mauled fox over her shoulder...

The SNP took a battering on social media yesterday. I have no idea what they were thinking!!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The SNP took a battering on social media yesterday. I have no idea what they were thinking!!

I dont know anything about the rights and wrongs of tail docking. But it is very unusual for SNP members to defy the whip.

Seems a strange one from them i agree, but that is not to say it is right or wrong.

Im interested in what our SNP/Hibs.Net liaison officer had to say on the matter...?

[easty]

It's an odd decision I think.

My missus is a vet, I've just messaged her for her opinion on it.

[Just Alf]

Im interested in what our SNP/Hibs.Net liaison officer had to say on the matter...?



:hahaha::kettle:

[Mr White]

It's an odd decision I think.

My missus is a vet, I've just messaged her for her opinion on it.

I've heard people say it's better for working springer spaniels to be docked soon after birth as a tail injury as an adult can happen easily and be very serious for them. But as a quote from someone in the article points out it's impossible to know if a 5 day old pup is going to make it as a working dog. I'm interested to hear your wife's take on it.

[Just Alf]

I've heard people say it's better for working springer spaniels to be docked as a tail injury as an adult can be very serious but as a quote from someone in the article points out it's impossible to know if a 5 day old pup is going to make it as a working dog. I'm interested to hear your wife's take on it.

Interested too :agree:

I also noticed right at the end of the article its not actually a full "dock", they remove the last third (dunno if that makes any difference).... I suppose the question is, how painful is it for the dogs involved compared to those that don't get the procedure and get injured later when it evidently is painful.

[easty]

I've heard people say it's better for working springer spaniels to be docked soon after birth as a tail injury as an adult can happen easily and be very serious for them. But as a quote from someone in the article points out it's impossible to know if a 5 day old pup is going to make it as a working dog. I'm interested to hear your wife's take on it.


Interested too :agree:

I also noticed right at the end of the article its not actually a full "dock", they remove the last third (dunno if that makes any difference).... I suppose the question is, how painful is it for the dogs involved compared to those that don't get the procedure and get injured later when it evidently is painful.

She's working just now so I'll probably no hear back from her til lunch.

She works at the PDSA, so I don't think she'll ever have many/any cases of clients bringing in working dogs!

[easty]

She's working just now so I'll probably no hear back from her til lunch.

She works at the PDSA, so I don't think she'll ever have many/any cases of clients bringing in working dogs!

She said

Completely disagree - this opens up the door for backstreet breeders docking puppies tails, and how can breeders justify it as at 5 days old they don't know whether these puppies will be bought by people who want to work them anyway. It's a nonsense.

[Geo_1875]

It's a strange one. I wonder who in the SNP hierarchy woke up one morning and thought lets chop dogs tails off. It must have been the after effects of a weekend long drug binge that made them come up with that one.

Or maybe it was the result of an evidence led investigation.

[ronaldo7]

She said

Completely disagree - this opens up the door for backstreet breeders docking puppies tails, and how can breeders justify it as at 5 days old they don't know whether these puppies will be bought by people who want to work them anyway. It's a nonsense.

Totally agree with her. It's a nonsense to go back on this.

Who can tell which dogs will go on to become working dogs.

[lord bunberry]

I've heard people say it's better for working springer spaniels to be docked soon after birth as a tail injury as an adult can happen easily and be very serious for them. But as a quote from someone in the article points out it's impossible to know if a 5 day old pup is going to make it as a working dog. I'm interested to hear your wife's take on it.
When I was still using Facebook I was part of a group called Scottish springer spaniels and lots of people on there used to suggest that it was better to have their tails docked as dogs could get pretty nasty tail injuries. If I'm being honest I didn't think it was possible for a dog to break its tail.
I wonder what % of dogs actually go on to be working dogs.

[Mr White]

When I was still using Facebook I was part of a group called Scottish springer spaniels and lots of people on there used to suggest that it was better to have their tails docked as dogs could get pretty nasty tail injuries. If I'm being honest I didn't think it was possible for a dog to break its tail.
I wonder what % of dogs actually go on to be working dogs.
It'll vary from breeder to breeder I would think. Some kennels will breed with the intention of the pups becoming working dogs but of course there's no guarantee that they do.

I don't like to see dogs with docked tails personally but I suppose the working aspect of this means it's better not to judge it through the eyes of a pet owner?

[lord bunberry]

It'll vary from breeder to breeder I would think. Some kennels will breed with the intention of the pups becoming working dogs but of course there's no guarantee that they do.

I don't like to see dogs with docked tails personally but I suppose the working aspect of this means it's better not to judge it through the eyes of a pet owner?
If it's something that's done for a good reason then I don't have a problem with it, but if it's done purely for show then I don't agree with it.

[Mr White]

If it's something that's done for a good reason then I don't have a problem with it, but if it's done purely for show then I don't agree with it.

I'm not sure about breeds like dobermans etc who sometimes have it done but my understanding of why working spaniels have traditionally had it done is that it's for the welfare of dogs who spend hours each day running through undergrowth.

I could be wrong there but as far as I know the procedure should be carried out by a vet who agrees that it's in the interest of the dog. I'm sure it's a pretty controversial topic in vetinary circles; I suspect the majority these days agree with Eastys wife.

It's an interesting thing for the government to back track on. I wonder how much consultation was done with vets? Presumably the lobbying was done by the owners of working dogs.

[lord bunberry]

I'm not sure about breeds like dobermans etc who sometimes have it done but my understanding of why working spaniels have traditionally had it done is that it's for the welfare of dogs who spend hours each day running through undergrowth.

I could be wrong there but as far as I know the procedure should be carried out by a vet who agrees that it's in the interest of the dog. I'm sure it's a pretty controversial topic in vetinary circles; I suspect the majority these days agree with Eastys wife.

It's an interesting thing for the government to back track on. I wonder how much consultation was done with vets? Presumably the lobbying was done by the owners of working dogs.
I think Scotland was the only country to stop it as I believe it's still done down south. I would like to think that the government took advice from vets before making the decision. Owners of working animals don't always have the best interests of the animal as their main concern and breeders are often the same.

[lucky]

I'm not really clued up on this but it just seems cruel. Not sure why this has been brought back in. The SNP appear to have lost directon at the moment and siding with the Tories on what's being perceived as animal cruelty seems a poor political decision.

[Mr White]

I think Scotland was the only country to stop it as I believe it's still done down south. I would like to think that the government took advice from vets before making the decision. Owners of working animals don't always have the best interests of the animal as their main concern and breeders are often the same.

Good point mate.

[Geo_1875]

She said

Completely disagree - this opens up the door for backstreet breeders docking puppies tails, and how can breeders justify it as at 5 days old they don't know whether these puppies will be bought by people who want to work them anyway. It's a nonsense.

I doubt there are many backstreet breeders supplying working dogs. Just like breeding show dogs or greyhounds it will be a small market with most people known to each other. If the process and ownership is well documented I doubt there would be a widespread return to tail-less devil dogs roaming the streets.

As an aside, do PDSA still cut off adult dogs testicles free of charge?

[easty]

As an aside, do PDSA still cut off adult dogs testicles free of charge?

I'm not sure, I'll ask tonight.

The only things I know they don't cover are breeding costs (c-sections and the like) and you can only have 3 animals (with only one being a pedigree dog).

[HappyAsHellas]

When I used to go out shooting all the dogs were docked and all of them came from known reputable breeders/trainers and cost about £300 a pup in the 1980's. I would doubt very much if there's a big market for back street hunting dogs.