Petrie and Infrastructure

[Dashing Bob S]

There's no doubt about it, we took a bad hit when Petrie was developing the stadia and training centre etc. Our eye was off what was happrning on the field of play.

I personally always thought it was a worthwhile gamble. Many disagreed, and I do understand why, and fair enough. Not interest in point scoring.

Given the ST's we expect to sell this year, we are now poised to reap the rewards.

As somebody who has continually criticized Petrie over the years, albeit for other things, I would like to commend him for sticking to his guns. I think, over the piece, he got it right.

[hibs#1]

There's no doubt about it, we took a bad hit when Petrie was developing the stadia and training centre etc. Our eye was off what was happrning on the field of play.

I personally always thought it was a worthwhile gamble. Many disagreed, and I do understand why, and fair enough. Not interest in point scoring.

Given the ST's we expect to sell this year, we are now poised to reap the rewards.

As somebody who has continually criticized Petrie over the years, albeit for other things, I would like to commend him for sticking to his guns. I think, over the piece, he got it right.



Amen to that 👏

[Bostonhibby]

There's no doubt about it, we took a bad hit when Petrie was developing the stadia and training centre etc. Our eye was off what was happrning on the field of play.

I personally always thought it was a worthwhile gamble. Many disagreed, and I do understand why, and fair enough. Not interest in point scoring.

Given the ST's we expect to sell this year, we are now poised to reap the rewards.

As somebody who has continually criticized Petrie over the years, albeit for other things, I would like to commend him for sticking to his guns. I think, over the piece, he got it right.
Fair comments. I'm at the point where I've started to recover from the pre stubbs appointments. Might reach forgiveness of some sort eventually though I have a horrible feeling that "Chipgate" will be the bullet that finally finishes him off.

How he allowed Mrs Budge to get that announcement out there before we'd even worked out what a chip was is just beyond me.

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[Ozyhibby]

Don't think anyone has a problem with our infrastructure. Most fans were happy with cash being diverted towards it.
It was the shambolic way the club was run in the 5 years before Leeann arrived that was the problem. The amount of money wasted on huge player and management turnover, lack of direction in the club and complete hands off attitude to what was going on at East Mains is why he was such a bad CEO.
Just wish he had realised sooner that he was as bad as he was.
Good job on the stadium and training centre though.


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[NORTHERNHIBBY]

We swapped facilities that were not good enough for players for players that were not good enough for the facilities. Balance is coming back though. Would like to see the squad being our own players brought through with the odd add on rather than the other way around but we are not the only club in that place.

[Crazyhorse]

There's no doubt about it, we took a bad hit when Petrie was developing the stadia and training centre etc. Our eye was off what was happrning on the field of play.

I personally always thought it was a worthwhile gamble. Many disagreed, and I do understand why, and fair enough. Not interest in point scoring.

Given the ST's we expect to sell this year, we are now poised to reap the rewards.

As somebody who has continually criticized Petrie over the years, albeit for other things, I would like to commend him for sticking to his guns. I think, over the piece, he got it right.

I would partially agree. The stadium was always worth finishing off, he is to be commended for that. East Mains I'm still in two minds about.
However I think if LD hadn't arrived and transformed things we would still be stumbling about in the same fashion we were in the years before she arrived.
The past year of glory has I'm sure also made me the most positive I've ever been about Hibs.

[HoboHarry]

I would partially agree. The stadium was always worth finishing off, he is to be commended for that. East Mains I'm still in two minds about.
However I think if LD hadn't arrived and transformed things we would still be stumbling about in the same fashion we were in the years before she arrived.
The past year of glory has I'm sure also made me the most positive I've ever been about Hibs.
It could be argued that RP also recognized that possibility by appointing LD long before the season ended.

[CraigHibee]

There's no doubt about it, we took a bad hit when Petrie was developing the stadia and training centre etc. Our eye was off what was happrning on the field of play.

I personally always thought it was a worthwhile gamble. Many disagreed, and I do understand why, and fair enough. Not interest in point scoring.

Given the ST's we expect to sell this year, we are now poised to reap the rewards.

As somebody who has continually criticized Petrie over the years, albeit for other things, I would like to commend him for sticking to his guns. I think, over the piece, he got it right.

absolutely :top marks

[BSEJVT]

At the time we built the East Stand & East Mains and sold the family silver to finance it I told Rod Petrie at an AGM in a private conversation that he should tell the support exactly what the implications of doing so would be (although I didn't expect things to get quite that bad)

I thought that if he was honest with people they would be more accepting of the relative decline if it was to be played out over a short time for long term betterment, he wouldn't hear of it.

I knew why he wouldn't hear of it but thought it then and as things unfolded a big mistake.

As I say I didn't foresee the extent of the fall off or imagine anything quite that bad, I saw us going from a team of your vibrant entertaining footballers to something dull and boring for a few years.

Rod Petrie rightly got pelters for what unfolded and to many remains a divisive figure, my perspective is that he compounded the error of what turned out to be poor managerial appointments, although few were seen as poor at the time of their appointment, by indulging those appointments to sign their own dross and get rid off the previous incumbents dross in an exercise that wasted vast amounts of money and hastened our decline.

Quite who saw that a change of dynamic was needed we will probably never know, but although Leanne & George Craig have done a great job, anything other than Petrie would have been more popular and consequently would have had a far easier ride.

BTW that is not in anyway meant to detract from their achievements, I doubt we could have chosen better than them, just to apply context to their comparative standing with the support and Rod Petrie's

It would be churlish though not to acknowledge the years of effort Rod Petrie has put in at the helm of the club and the transformation of our off field and laterally on field positions compared to what he initially presided over when STF bought the club.

Anyone who has seen his Time for Heroes interview can be in no doubt exactly what the club and that moment have come to mean to him.

In conclusion, did he mean to muck things up as badly as he did for a while, I don't believe for a moment he did.

Should we then forgive him for those errors I have no doubt we should.

I don't have any doubt that we would have arrived at this point in the journey at some point as a result of the changes that he and STF put in place regarding ownership and investment in the club. I would say it is to Leanne and George Craig's credit that we have got here so soon thereafter.

[Chip shop Joe]

If I remember we also got a really good deal on the build due to the economic crash I am sure that both steel and labour prices were far lower than today.

[Crazyhorse]

It could be argued that RP also recognized that possibility by appointing LD long before the season ended.

Fair enough, if he was instrumental in the appointment I'll give him credit for that.
We did suffer years of embarrassment due to mismanagement though and I suppose the past year has made the memory of how grim that period was fade. Thank goodness it has!

[dunedinhibs]

At the time we built the East Stand & East Mains and sold the family silver to finance it I told Rod Petrie at an AGM in a private conversation that he should tell the support exactly what the implications of doing so would be (although I didn't expect things to get quite that bad)

I thought that if he was honest with people they would be more accepting of the relative decline if it was to be played out over a short time for long term betterment, he wouldn't hear of it.

I knew why he wouldn't hear of it but thought it then and as things unfolded a big mistake.

As I say I didn't foresee the extent of the fall off or imagine anything quite that bad, I saw us going from a team of your vibrant entertaining footballers to something dull and boring for a few years.

Rod Petrie rightly got pelters for what unfolded and to many remains a divisive figure, my perspective is that he compounded the error of what turned out to be poor managerial appointments, although few were seen as poor at the time of their appointment, by indulging those appointments to sign their own dross and get rid off the previous incumbents dross in an exercise that wasted vast amounts of money and hastened our decline.

Quite who saw that a change of dynamic was needed we will probably never know, but although Leanne & George Craig have done a great job, anything other than Petrie would have been more popular and consequently would have had a far easier ride.

BTW that is not in anyway meant to detract from their achievements, I doubt we could have chosen better than them, just to apply context to their comparative standing with the support and Rod Petrie's

It would be churlish though not to acknowledge the years of effort Rod Petrie has put in at the helm of the club and the transformation of our off field and laterally on field positions compared to what he initially presided over when STF bought the club.

Anyone who has seen his Time for Heroes interview can be in no doubt exactly what the club and that moment have come to mean to him.

In conclusion, did he mean to muck things up as badly as he did for a while, I don't believe for a moment he did.

Should we then forgive him for those errors I have no doubt we should.

I don't have any doubt that we would have arrived at this point in the journey at some point as a result of the changes that he and STF put in place regarding ownership and investment in the club. I would say it is to Leanne and George Craig's credit that we have got here so soon thereafter.

Great well balanced post, thank you 👍🏻

[Viva_Palmeiras]

I have a sneaking suspicion that the blue print for what we see before us today had foundations laid by in part Brian Houston.

So whilst LD is the perfect fit the die had been likely cast in preparations beforehand. It of wasnt her someone else would have been brought in to tackle the challenges we faced although it would take some beating to surpass the perfect ten that LD has achieved.

Perhaps some of the LWT/Working Together folks that have been there throughout might have a view on that...

[Hibbyradge]

Don't think anyone has a problem with our infrastructure. Most fans were happy with cash being diverted towards it.
It was the shambolic way the club was run in the 5 years before Leeann arrived that was the problem. The amount of money wasted on huge player and management turnover, lack of direction in the club and complete hands off attitude to what was going on at East Mains is why he was such a bad CEO.
Just wish he had realised sooner that he was as bad as he was.
Good job on the stadium and training centre though.


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The money wasted on player turnover was welcomed by our supporters and was the board backing the managers.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

It's interesting that Rod and McCann* shared a similar philosophy - they steered the road less travelled and charted a path away from the lemming mentality of Rangers and Hearts. To be proved ultimately correct particularly in Bunnets case it's a pity Tommy Burns didn't live to see events turn to Celtics favour the way they have. His heart was broken by cheating.

Absolutely pointless going toe-to-toe with reckless / lunatic stewardship of other clubs ala Romanov/Murray.

* remember the bunnet? With the biscuit tin mentality the Cellic fans berated him for?

[NAE NOOKIE]

The decision to build the east stand and East Mains were right for the club at the time. The east terrace was way past its sell by date for a modern stadium and a club hoping to make a dent simply couldn't go on training players on public parks and our lack of facilities was no doubt hampering our attempts to attract players as well.

I think the correlation between the money we spent on the infrastructure and the car crash we became on the pitch is overplayed a wee bit .... even though we weren't ploughing the millions made from Scott Brown and the like into the team we still had a player budget that was better than two thirds of the clubs who didn't manage to get themselves relegated. It was how that budget was spent and the guys we employed to spend it that was the main problem.

Petrie's problem was that he didn't move quickly enough to address the on field problems and his failure to see the writing on the wall until it was too late, even though it had been clear to most observers for some time that we were sleepwalking towards disaster ...... if the story is true, his refusal to sanction the couple of hundred quid extra it would have taken to prize Adam Rooney from the clutches of Aberdeen, which may well have saved us, showed that he couldn't see far enough past the accounts to realise that the good health of this club is tied in every way to what happens on the pitch, how many million pounds did that decision cost us in the end?

We now have the balance right .... Petrie still controls the purse strings when push comes to shove, but we now have people in place at the club who are in a position to convince him of the right way to spend it, especially in a Rooney type situation where the wisdom of spending that few extra quid ( not busting the bank I hasten to add ) would perhaps be clear to them where it wouldn't be to Petrie.

There is definitely still a place for Rod Petrie at Easter Road because apart from anything else the stadium isn't finished ..... its absolutely fine as it is, but IMO it will only be finished when all 4 stands are joined up to make a totally enclosed stadium, its not a priority, but it has to be a goal.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Taking the eye off the ball was on the managerial appointments - some of whom on paper should have fitted the bill but it wasn't to be again, again and again. But it was argued by Scott Lindsay as we met him after that awful day in May that they had both built the infrastructure AND supported the manager - Liam Miller, Stokes there were others I forget but I took his point. Petrie after all didn't pick the team like Vlad !

[IanM]

I no longer think Petrie is a bawbag

[Ozyhibby]

The money wasted on player turnover was welcomed by our supporters and was the board backing the managers.

Doesn't make it a good decision. Fans always want new signings. Even now not every new signing can be a success but there now appears to be a strategy in place. When Rod was in charge we were signing players we knew very little about on short term deals and wondering why it was not working. Backing the manager is not just about giving him cash.


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[blackpoolhibs]

I'm sure his 5 year plan never included getting us relegated, although his actions certainly caused it. :rolleyes:

[Keith_M]

I would partially agree. The stadium was always worth finishing off, he is to be commended for that. East Mains I'm still in two minds about.....


That's pretty much where I'm at.

Hibs needed somewhere to train but not 100% convinced that East Mains is actually worth the cost.

However, I've always backed replacing the East Stand.

[Jack]

Don't think anyone has a problem with our infrastructure. Most fans were happy with cash being diverted towards it.
It was the shambolic way the club was run in the 5 years before Leeann arrived that was the problem. The amount of money wasted on huge player and management turnover, lack of direction in the club and complete hands off attitude to what was going on at East Mains is why he was such a bad CEO.
Just wish he had realised sooner that he was as bad as he was.
Good job on the stadium and training centre though.


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I'd go with that pretty much.

There's no doubt Rod is a very good businessman, shown by the fact that even in the bad times we still made regular profits in the accounts.

I think though by the time he's gotten all the infrastructure in place he'd forgotten he was running a football club.

[Jack]

I have a sneaking suspicion that the blue print for what we see before us today had foundations laid by in part Brian Houston.

So whilst LD is the perfect fit the die had been likely cast in preparations beforehand. It of wasnt her someone else would have been brought in to tackle the challenges we faced although it would take some beating to surpass the perfect ten that LD has achieved.

Perhaps some of the LWT/Working Together folks that have been there throughout might have a view on that...

I think you're right. Brian led a number of streams all involving passionate Hibbies and produced a document that made sense, good sense. I did recognise many ideas coming through after that without that previous work being mentioned.

I'm not sure he was ever given proper credit for that work.

Well done Brian, I know you look in here ;-)

[where'stheslope]

Its really, "the great look back in anger" thread!

When you look back, its easy to say, we should have done this rather than that.

The main thing is, look at us now, stadium finished, back in the Premiership, East Mains training facility and have a good honest team on the park!

Given we were down, we still managed to win the Scottish Cup and finally won the Championship!

All that does not happen unless everyone on the Board is working tirelessly to make it happen!

We are making good progress as a team now, and with some good additions could be better.

[Ozyhibby]

Its really, "the great look back in anger" thread!

When you look back, its easy to say, we should have done this rather than that.

The main thing is, look at us now, stadium finished, back in the Premiership, East Mains training facility and have a good honest team on the park!

Given we were down, we still managed to win the Scottish Cup and finally won the Championship!

All that does not happen unless everyone on the Board is working tirelessly to make it happen!

We are making good progress as a team now, and with some good additions could be better.

And the additions need to reflect the massive amount of money the fans are putting in just now.


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[JDHibs]

On the field took a hit whilst we were doing East Mains AND the stadium. We always knew that it was going to take a few years for us to get the benefits.

However, as you rightly said, looks like now we are going to start getting the season tickets to fill the stadium and it looks like our academy is going to start paying off soon with youngsters like Porteous, Martin, Crane, Shaw, Murray and a few others looking very promising!

Never been a great fan of Petries, but he loves our club and it looks like he may have made the correct decisions for the future of Hibernian Fc no matter what the fans thought at the time!

Bringing in Dempster has to be one of his best moves!

[The Modfather]

Still don't have any time for Petrie and personally think he has a brass neck in still being at the club.

He did a good job building the new stand and training centre to the quality they are, and by all accounts in negotiating a good deal. However he wasn't some kind of visionary, we had a unique crop of youngsters come through that provided a massive windfall. It was the obvious option to use that money to complete the infrastructure as who knows when we would be in a position to do so again.

I think some are forgetting just how bad those dark days were. A goalkeeping coach doubling up as a scout, signing players based on their Wikipedia page, a toxic culture at the club under Petrie's watch that even he has to admit needed changed. Culminating in relegation at a time when any competent chairman would have taken advantage of there being no Rangers and Hearts in financial crisis.

IMO we are where we currently are despite Petrie and the 5 years (as BH mentioned, that 5 year plan that was a secret to all but Petrie) proceeding Dempster joining. She deserves a knighthood for doing the impossible and transforming us into a well run club.

I would still like him gone, but appreciate it's a topic that divides the support so only voice my opinion on specific Petrie threads as no need for potential infighting.

[AndyM_1875]

I think Rod's problem up to 2014 was that he was spreading himself too thin. He was Chairman and CEO of Hibs and they are two very separate roles. Add the SFA stuff he was doing and it's fair to say he took his eye off the ball and the club suffered. Still, he actively sought to bring Leeann in as CEO and it's been the best thing that has happened to out club in a long time.

His tenure will also show a fully built modern stadium and wholly owned Training Centre. Our neighbours are playing catch up there and they have still to pay for it.

[Hfcwilson3192]

There's no doubt about it, we took a bad hit when Petrie was developing the stadia and training centre etc. Our eye was off what was happrning on the field of play.

I personally always thought it was a worthwhile gamble. Many disagreed, and I do understand why, and fair enough. Not interest in point scoring.

Given the ST's we expect to sell this year, we are now poised to reap the rewards.

As somebody who has continually criticized Petrie over the years, albeit for other things, I would like to commend him for sticking to his guns. I think, over the piece, he got it right.


A personally believe it's down to leeann that there's a feel good factor between the club and the fans again. I wholeheartedly thank him for her appointment.

[Dashing Bob S]

Petrie's Scottish Cup tears were the best I've seen since Sinead O'Connor did Nothing Compares 2U on TOTP.

[greenginger]

A personally believe it's down to leeann that there's a feel good factor between the club and the fans again. I wholeheartedly thank him for her appointment.


I think the Scottish Cup win helps a bit as well. :thumbsup:

[jacomo]

I'm sure his 5 year plan never included getting us relegated, although his actions certainly caused it. :rolleyes:


Petrie appointed Butcher. Disastrous decision although it was the catalyst for changing the way the club was run.

Petrie did not cause us to be relegated. That rests with Butcher.

[proud_and_green]

Petrie appointed Butcher. Disastrous decision although it was the catalyst for changing the way the club was run.

Petrie did not cause us to be relegated. That rests with Butcher.

I recall that there was a very loud demand for Butcher's appointment when he was appointed and at the time of Pat's appointment so clearly the ability to overestimate manager's suitability is not confined to Rod!

[bigwheel]

The infrastructure being in place has allowed LD to focus on creating a football structure that would work , and an engagement with fans and community that was much stronger than we had .....if she had had stands to build or training Center - her job would have been harder ...there are very few football CEO's in a Scotland that would have had the infra that she adopted in her new role...there is no doubt that has allowed her to focus on the things that matter in recent years

[RoYO!]

The infrastructure being in place has allowed LD to focus on creating a football structure that would work , and an engagement with fans and community that was much stronger than we had .....if she had had stands to build or training Center - her job would have been harder ...there are very few football CEO's in a Scotland that would have had the infra that she adopted in her new role...there is no doubt that has allowed her to focus on the things that matter in recent years

Great points. Although it will be interesting to see how she handles the tricky corner filling situation... :P

[Baw187]

The Adam Rooney example mentioned earlier in the thread is typical of the things I've heard from people in and about the club, that Petrie was doing for many a year.

Skint or not, this hamstrung managers, some of whom were already hamstrung with a severe lack of managerial nouse.

I think (hope) the most significant change that has occurred in the last 3 years has been that he has let LD and GC essentially run the footballing part of the model so this kind of shortsightedness doesn't occur.

There's no doubt our managerial and player recruitment has improved 100 fold since he stepped back and long may that continue.

I don't necessarily blame him for what happened in the sense it would clearly not be his intent to run the club in to the **** hole it ended up but he is an accountant at the end of the day and accountants can't run football operations.

[blackpoolhibs]

Petrie appointed Butcher. Disastrous decision although it was the catalyst for changing the way the club was run.

Petrie did not cause us to be relegated. That rests with Butcher.


Butcher was the last of a long line of incompetent managers, all appointed by teflon. It took him a while, but his 5 year plan which we dont really know what that plan was, was certainly not to get us relegated, but useless managerial appointment after appointment resulted in our relegation.

Who is accountable if its not those running the bloody place, is Hibernian Football Club the only place where those in charge are not accountable for what happens?

[jacomo]

Butcher was the last of a long line of incompetent managers, all appointed by teflon. It took him a while, but his 5 year plan which we dont really know what that plan was, was certainly not to get us relegated, but useless managerial appointment after appointment resulted in our relegation.

Who is accountable if its not those running the bloody place, is Hibernian Football Club the only place where those in charge are not accountable for what happens?


Of course he's accountable. Hibs fans were justifiably angry after relegation and made their feelings known. RP was left in no doubt about the need for change.

But he didn't cause relegation. That was Butcher alone.

[blackpoolhibs]

Of course he's accountable. Hibs fans were justifiably angry after relegation and made their feelings known. RP was left in no doubt about the need for change.

But he didn't cause relegation. That was Butcher alone.

Well we will just need to disagree, the buck stops at the top, and imo he was running the place into the ground.

[The Modfather]

Petrie appointed Butcher. Disastrous decision although it was the catalyst for changing the way the club was run.

Petrie did not cause us to be relegated. That rests with Butcher.

Relegation didn't come out of the blue, we'd been heading that way for a good few years before it inevitably happened.

[jacomo]

Well we will just need to disagree, the buck stops at the top, and imo he was running the place into the ground.


Sure. But people talk like he's Craig Whyte or Romanov.

There is a difference between making bad appointments and 'running the place into the ground'.

RP deserves credit for the things he got right and for having the best interests of the club at heart.

[The Modfather]

I recall that there was a very loud demand for Butcher's appointment when he was appointed and at the time of Pat's appointment so clearly the ability to overestimate manager's suitability is not confined to Rod!

I've never understood this line of thought. Petrie was responsible for picking the right man, not the popular man. We as fans have no idea what the criteria for selecting a manager is or what budgets are etc. Otherwise why not just open up managerial appointment to a poll for season ticket holders.

It's with the benefit of hindsight yes, but Williamson was the right man for that time, but not the popular choice. Petrie should have had a philosophy in place in terms of how we wanted to play and bring through youngsters etc, which then influences who we choose. We ended up with no plan, zero continuity and massive squad turnovers each season/new manager. The inevitable consequence of that was relegation eventually.

[blackpoolhibs]

I've never understood this line of thought. Petrie was responsible for picking the right man, not the popular man. We as fans have no idea what the criteria for selecting a manager is or what budgets are etc. Otherwise why not just open up managerial appointment to a poll for season ticket holders.

It's with the benefit of hindsight yes, but Williamson was the right man for that time, but not the popular choice. Petrie should have had a philosophy in place in terms of how we wanted to play and bring through youngsters etc, which then influences who we choose. We ended up with no plan, zero continuity and massive squad turnovers each season/new manager. The inevitable consequence of that was relegation eventually.

:top marksI'm surprised the famous 5 year plan didn't include chips.

[greenpaper55]

Petrie thought he knew it all after he picked Mowbray, every other appointment after that was a disaster and it just shows what can happen when you appoint an accountant with no knowledge of football to run a club. The new stand and EM were decisions that you or i could have made but i still question why we had to spend 5 million on so much land we will never use !

[Hibbyradge]

I'm sure his 5 year plan never included getting us relegated, although his actions certainly caused it. :rolleyes:

Pat Fenlon wouldn't have got us relegated, we were 5 points off 2nd place when he left, but he resigned because he couldn't handle the pressure from the fans. That wasn't Petrie's fault.

Recruiting Butcher and Malpas was the obvious move and it cost Hibs a lot of cash to do so, but how could any CEO predict that a manager would ostracise players by telling them they weren't wanted months before the end of he season, only to ask them to play for the jersey when the going got tough?

Nor could anyone envisage losing a 2 - 0 1st leg advantage to a championship side at Easter Road.

Those things were also not Rod Petrie's fault.

The blame for our relegation lies squarely at Terry Butcher's feet.

[stantonhibby]

Petrie thought he knew it all after he picked Mowbray, every other appointment after that was a disaster and it just shows what can happen when you appoint an accountant with no knowledge of football to run a club. The new stand and EM were decisions that you or i could have made but i still question why we had to spend 5 million on so much land we will never use !

Wouldnt class any Hibs manager who won us a trophy as a failure (Collins)

[Baw187]

Pat Fenlon wouldn't have got us relegated, we were 5 points off 2nd place when he left, but he resigned because he couldn't handle the pressure from the fans. That wasn't Petrie's fault.

Recruiting Butcher and Malpas was the obvious move and it cost Hibs a lot of cash to do so, but how could any CEO predict that a manager would ostracise players by telling them they weren't wanted months before the end of he season, only to ask them to play for the jersey when the going got tough?

Nor could anyone envisage losing a 2 - 0 1st leg advantage to a championship side at Easter Road.

Those things were also not Rod Petrie's fault.

The blame for our relegation lies squarely at Terry Butcher's feet.

But had Petrie backed Butcher in that January window, he'd have got players in who possibly would have kept us up and the fact he told the others they were horse, wouldn't have had such a detrimental effect.

Of course, if that story is true, which I strongly believe it was.

[Hibbyradge]

But had Petrie backed Butcher in that January window, he'd have got players in who possibly would have kept us up and the fact he told the others they were horse, wouldn't have had such a detrimental effect.

Of course, if that story is true, which I strongly believe it was.

Why do you strongly believe that? I don't. Butcher planned a whole-scale clear out in the summer and was going to bring his own men. He only wanted to sign players on loan deals until he could do that. Rooney wanted a permanent deal so we didn't pursue him. This was Butcher's plan, which was backed by the board.

It's a totally unfounded internet rumour, spread in order to stoke resentment against Rod Petrie which is, clearly, a position that people are happy to take.

Even if there was any merit in it, which there isn't, Hibs would always put a value on a player and we would have a budget to work within.

Every decent negotiator has a limit to work within. I certainly wouldn't want someone negotiating on my behalf who would capitulate easily and commit me to more than I wanted to spend, or that I could afford, regardless of how attractive the offering was.

Imagine buying a car or a house with that kind of negotiating stance.

See Hearts or The Rangers for football examples.

[Baw187]

Why do you strongly believe that? I don't. Butcher planned a whole-scale clear out in the summer and was going to bring his own men. He only wanted to sign players on loan deals until he could do that. Rooney wanted a permanent deal so we didn't pursue him. This was Butcher's plan, which was backed by the board.

It's a totally unfounded internet rumour, spread in order to stoke resentment against Rod Petrie which is, clearly, a position that people are happy to take.

Even if there was any merit in it, which there isn't, Hibs would always put a value on a player and we would have a budget to work within.

Every decent negotiator has a limit to work within. I certainly wouldn't want someone negotiating on my behalf who would capitulate easily and commit me to more than I wanted to spend, or that I could afford, regardless of how attractive the offering was.

Imagine buying a car or a house with that kind of negotiating stance.

See Hearts or The Rangers for football examples.

I could turn it back on you and ask why you believe it to be a load of bull?

I'm basing it on many a conversation with people who have been in and around the club for years, ex players and such like, who have all told very similar tales of Petrie pulling the rug away from managers and changing the terms of deals at the last minute.

I still think he did these things with the right intent but he clearly didn't get how football worked.

[Hibbyradge]

I could turn it back on you and ask why you believe it to be a load of bull?

I'm basing it on many a conversation with people who have been in and around the club for years, ex players and such like, who have all told very similar tales of Petrie pulling the rug away from managers and changing the terms of deals at the last minute.

I still think he did these things with the right intent but he clearly didn't get how football worked.

Well, ex-players and the like have agendas too, but the only official information I've received was from the horse's mouth.

“A load of rubbish,” stressed Butcher. “I spoke to Adam’s agent and he wanted a permanent deal, whereas we are looking more at loan deals. But we never got around to talking figures or anything like that,” he added. “I couldn’t commit to a long- term contract, albeit I’ve worked with him before and I was optimistic he would come to us on loan. “But the lure of a very lucrative deal was obviously what he wanted. It was never a case of us offering him anything, he just wanted a permanent deal somewhere. We were on a different wavelength.”

Read more at: http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/competitions/premiership/terry-butcher-hibs-didn-t-offer-rooney-a-deal-1-3281432

[Scott Allan Key]

It's interesting that Rod and McCann* shared a similar philosophy - they steered the road less travelled and charted a path away from the lemming mentality of Rangers and Hearts. To be proved ultimately correct particularly in Bunnets case it's a pity Tommy Burns didn't live to see events turn to Celtics favour the way they have. His heart was broken by cheating.

Absolutely pointless going toe-to-toe with reckless / lunatic stewardship of other clubs ala Romanov/Murray.

* remember the bunnet? With the biscuit tin mentality the Cellic fans berated him for?

A bit too Celtc minded. They only like jelly and ice cream not biscuits or Scotch bonnets as the latter are for grown-ups. I think that's what broke Tommy Burns, rest his soul, that which also got Jock Stein. And what are Celtic doing for the gambling addiction of our very own Leigh? Probably, actively encouraging it to 'keep him hungry', and desperate for chips.

I'm not liking Brendan Rogers denigration of 'Scottish' players, being from Ulster himself, that is a very divide and rule 📏 tactic that is drawing havoc not only to beat other football teams but is the essence of the cause of sectarianism.

They can stuff their jelly and icecream where the sun don't shine...

...Glasgow.

I'll get to Rangers later. Toot toot.

[Baw187]

Well, ex-players and the like have agendas too, but the only official information I've received was from the horse's mouth.

“A load of rubbish,” stressed Butcher. “I spoke to Adam’s agent and he wanted a permanent deal, whereas we are looking more at loan deals. But we never got around to talking figures or anything like that,” he added. “I couldn’t commit to a long- term contract, albeit I’ve worked with him before and I was optimistic he would come to us on loan. “But the lure of a very lucrative deal was obviously what he wanted. It was never a case of us offering him anything, he just wanted a permanent deal somewhere. We were on a different wavelength.”

Read more at: http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/competitions/premiership/terry-butcher-hibs-didn-t-offer-rooney-a-deal-1-3281432

Everyone has an agenda especially managers when speaking to the press. Football clubs and football people are notorious at keeping what goes on behind the scenes out of the public eye. It's ingrained in their culture. So anything said on the record should be treated with a pinch of salt.

Maybe it was all Butcher's fault re Rooney but I am 100% certain Petrie has scuppered many a deal in spite of our managers best efforts that would have been in the bet interest of the team and club.

[Hibbyradge]

Everyone has an agenda especially managers when speaking to the press. Football clubs and football people are notorious at keeping what goes on behind the scenes out of the public eye. It's ingrained in their culture. So anything said on the record should be treated with a pinch of salt.

Maybe it was all Butcher's fault re Rooney but I am 100% certain Petrie has scuppered many a deal in spite of our managers best efforts that would have been in the bet interest of the team and club.

Why would he want to scupper the team and the club? :confused:

[blackpoolhibs]

Pat Fenlon wouldn't have got us relegated, we were 5 points off 2nd place when he left, but he resigned because he couldn't handle the pressure from the fans. That wasn't Petrie's fault.

Recruiting Butcher and Malpas was the obvious move and it cost Hibs a lot of cash to do so, but how could any CEO predict that a manager would ostracise players by telling them they weren't wanted months before the end of he season, only to ask them to play for the jersey when the going got tough?

Nor could anyone envisage losing a 2 - 0 1st leg advantage to a championship side at Easter Road.

Those things were also not Rod Petrie's fault.

The blame for our relegation lies squarely at Terry Butcher's feet.

Since Mowbray we've had Collins, Mixu, Hughes, Calderwood, Fenlon, and Butcher. 2 of them success in Collins and Hughes, then it was downhill with relegation and struggling sides playing the kind of football that bored the tits off of everyone.

It took its time, but the club and the team were on the slide under teflons tenure, it took someone else to get hold of the steering wheel for it it get better, under Petrie id put all i own on that we'd still be struggling in the championship.

Blame butcher all you like, but without Petries input we'd not have appointed butcher in the first place. He was the man at the top, and the buck stops with him in my opinion.

[Baw187]

Why would he want to scupper the team and the club? :confused:

I'm sure he didn't! I mentioned before that he would be making these calls based on what he thought was right but the point is, he didn't have the skill set to make these calls effectively.

LD and GC are evidently much more in touch win football needs, and work more collaboratively with the management team to make the right calls on player recruitment that get the best out of the resources we have available. Petrie thought that playing hardball with agents and players was the right thing to do to get the best for the club but it ultimately it hamstrung and alienated the managers and made their job harder than it needed to be.

Nothing against Rod operating in his role in the current model. But leave the manager and people who know how football works to navigate the club effectively with the budget we have.

[Hibbyradge]

Since Mowbray we've had Collins, Mixu, Hughes, Calderwood, Fenlon, and Butcher. 2 of them success in Collins and Hughes, then it was downhill with relegation and struggling sides playing the kind of football that bored the tits off of everyone.

It took its time, but the club and the team were on the slide under teflons tenure, it took someone else to get hold of the steering wheel for it it get better, under Petrie id put all i own on that we'd still be struggling in the championship.

Blame butcher all you like, but without Petries input we'd not have appointed butcher in the first place. He was the man at the top, and the buck stops with him in my opinion.

We've also had Stubbs and Lennon, remember, and Petrie appointed Dempster.

However, if Petrie is responsible when it goes wrong, he's also responsible when it goes right, and you should be happy to give him full credit when it does. We have a fantastic stadium and training ground, we finally won the Scottish Cup, we're back in the SPFL and we seem to be building a strong squad.

If Petrie had buckled and left when the fans were screaming for his head, who knows where we'd be now.

See, we can all crystal ball gaze to our own conclusions. :wink:

[Hibbyradge]

I'm sure he didn't! I mentioned before that he would be making these calls based on what he thought was right but the point is, he didn't have the skill set to make these calls effectively.

LD and GC are evidently much more in touch win football needs, and work more collaboratively with the management team to make the right calls on player recruitment that get the best out of the resources we have available. Petrie thought that playing hardball with agents and players was the right thing to do to get the best for the club but it ultimately it hamstrung and alienated the managers and made their job harder than it needed to be.

Nothing against Rod operating in his role in the current model. But leave the manager and people who know how football works to navigate the club effectively with the budget we have.

I don't know of any player who we wanted, that wanted to come to Hibs, and that we could realistically afford, that we didn't recruit.

Petrie simply refused to spend money that we didn't have, and managers who came here would have been well aware of that approach, and what our budget was. The job is hard, but some seemed to make a better fist of it than others.

[tamig]

I would partially agree. The stadium was always worth finishing off, he is to be commended for that. East Mains I'm still in two minds about.
However I think if LD hadn't arrived and transformed things we would still be stumbling about in the same fashion we were in the years before she arrived.
The past year of glory has I'm sure also made me the most positive I've ever been about Hibs.
What is it you are still in two minds about regarding East Mains? My view is that it has always been a fantastic facility but was grossly under untilised/misused by the various footballing regimes that have been in place up until George Craig arrived. Now it's manned with the right staff and is functioning properly. It's a fantastic asset and we are now beginning to reap the rewards of it's introduction. Just my view though.

[blackpoolhibs]

We've also had Stubbs and Lennon, remember, and Petrie appointed Dempster.

However, if Petrie is responsible when it goes wrong, he's also responsible when it goes right, and you should be happy to give him full credit when it does. We have a fantastic stadium and training ground, we finally won the Scottish Cup, we're back in the SPFL and we seem to be building a strong squad.

If Petrie had buckled and left when the fans were screaming for his head, who knows where we'd be now.

See, we can all crystal ball gaze to our own conclusions. :wink:

We had just been relegated when the fans were screaming for his head, should he have been praised for it Dave?

I have praised him and the club for building a terrific stadium and training ground, and slaughtered him for relegating us.

He went on about some mythical 5 year plan, which i'm pretty sure nobody knows any of the details of? What was his strategy of hiring and firing managers, as each manager he appointed all had different ways of playing the game?

We had collins who wanted the ball to roll on the carpet, to Butcher who wanted it punted long. What continuity was Petrie trying to get, how could he hire managers who had such differing ideas on how the game should be played, what was his thinking on how the team should be going forward as it appears to me it was just hire and hope rather than any sort of plan?

Stubbs and Lennon are Dempsters appointments, proving conclusively that it needed someone else rather than Petrie to be the one who appointed football managers, and manage the football side of things, as he couldnt spot one if one was perched on the end of his nose.

We now have a football philosophy and a plan that the backroom staff are all working to, and this is all down to Dempster and Craig.

Its about bloody time too.

[Hibbyradge]

We had just been relegated when the fans were screaming for his head, should he have been praised for it Dave?



Indeed not. The fans were right to be angry, but most of that fury should have been directed at Butcher.




Stubbs and Lennon are Dempsters appointments, proving conclusively that it needed someone else rather than Petrie to be the one who appointed football managers, and manage the football side of things, as he couldnt spot one if one was perched on the end of his nose.

We now have a football philosophy and a plan that the backroom staff are all working to, and this is all down to Dempster and Craig.

Its about bloody time too.

Does the buck now stop at Dempster?

PS Petrie appointed Mowbray.

Thirdly, I know you'll come round to my point of view eventually. :hilarious

[blackpoolhibs]

Indeed not. The fans were right to be angry, but most of that fury should have been directed at Butcher.



Does the buck now stop at Dempster?

PS Petrie appointed Mowbray.

Thirdly, I know you'll come round to my point of view eventually. :hilarious

Yes the buck should now stop at Dempster, and i know he appointed Mowbray. Which again shows you just how he had no plan of continuity, he brought in managers who all had different ways they liked to play. So each new manager did not have his type of players to play the game the way he wanted.

So it was a case each time of getting rid of lots of bodies and filling their places with more. If you could go back over the years, you would see i was right behind Petrie for building the ground up and the training centre.

Yet while doing so, the team were gradually weakened year on year until the inevitable happened, on his watch.

Petrie has not been all bad, but i'd say anyone who was in his position at the club should have walked the day we were relegated.

It should have been a given he was sacked/walked/shot. Nobody who's in charge at the club who presides over a relegation season should be kept on at any level in my opinion.

Come round to your way of thinking, never going to happen. :wink:

[Hibbyradge]

Come round to your way of thinking, never going to happen. :wink:

Aww. I was so sure you would, too. :greengrin

[Crazyhorse]

What is it you are still in two minds about regarding East Mains? My view is that it has always been a fantastic facility but was grossly under untilised/misused by the various footballing regimes that have been in place up until George Craig arrived. Now it's manned with the right staff and is functioning properly. It's a fantastic asset and we are now beginning to reap the rewards of it's introduction. Just my view though.
Perhaps it is functioning better now but it seemed to be a bit of a bricks and mortar white elephant for a long time. My view is that we should have maybe explored the potential of a partnership with Queen Margaret who were moving to East Lothian then. They have an excellent reputation for physio studies which could have had mutual benefits beyond just sharing space. It would have meant less funds diverted away from the team.
And to be honest even something like the yams (when they pay for them!) Heriot Watt facilities are probably all we would have ever needed for training.
Only my opinion but I'd like to see more concrete evidence of the benefits of EM (I can with the new stand).

[Diclonius]

I would question whether or not Petrie actually "backed the managers". We may have signed a high volume of players but very few of them were seen as "coups" or players that our rivals were also after. Transfer windows more than often came down to bargain basement signings on the last day of the window because our 1st, 2nd and 27th targets had turned us down - the managers were given free reign to buy as many players as they wanted, but whether they got the ones they wanted in the first place is up for debate. Saving money was considered the absolute priority even when it had massive collateral damage on the playing squad.

I can think of more than a few examples:

Selling Stokes to Celtic and "replacing" him with Darryl Duffy (on loan) who promptly broke down in training and was again "replaced" by Valdas Trakys, an ageing journeyman striker.
Calderwood complaining endlessly of "stumbling blocks" throughout the entire January transfer window as we continued to lose games (i.e. not getting first choice players) before we eventually signed six in the last week of the window (all of whom were out of the club within a year).
Taking Cillian Sheridan on trial (where he was pretty good and scored a few goals in friendlies) and then dicking about long enough with offering a contract that he eventually went to St Johnstone instead.
Panic buying a clutch of loan signings and free transfers in 2012 which whilst doing just about enough to stave off relegation were clearly not of a high enough standard to play at our club as evidenced by the cup final.
"Replacing" Griffiths and Doyle (the former having almost single-handedly carried us through the prior season) with Rowan Vine (a player released by St Johnstone after scoring 7 goals) and James Collins (eventually, after our entire pre-season).
Offering Jim Goodwin a contract which apparently was small enough for him to sign a new deal with St Mirren instead.
Going an entire transfer window without signing anyone, before doing loan deals for three players in literally the last second of the window, an exercise I fully believe to be down to saving money.
And finally, the one I believe in retrospect may have had the biggest impact of all - refusing to even compete with Aberdeen for the signing of Rooney, offering a loan deal when they offered him a full contract. Obviously he may have chosen to go to them anyway, but what was the outcome? We were relegated and he's scored 77 for them in three and a half years.

[greenpaper55]

Perhaps it is functioning better now but it seemed to be a bit of a bricks and mortar white elephant for a long time. My view is that we should have maybe explored the potential of a partnership with Queen Margaret who were moving to East Lothian then. They have an excellent reputation for physio studies which could have had mutual benefits beyond just sharing space. It would have meant less funds diverted away from the team.
And to be honest even something like the yams (when they pay for them!) Heriot Watt facilities are probably all we would have ever needed for training.
Only my opinion but I'd like to see more concrete evidence of the benefits of EM (I can with the new stand).

I agree we needed a training complex but being in the depths of East Lothian does nothing for the community, you only have to look at the impact the Spartans place has on the surrounding area and surely there must have been options along these lines.

[AndyM_1875]

I agree we needed a training complex but being in the depths of East Lothian does nothing for the community, you only have to look at the impact the Spartans place has on the surrounding area and surely there must have been options along these lines.

Hibs attempted to get the Training Centre off the ground for a number of years. Edinburgh City Council which was invariably intransigent and full of of maroon minded types who blocked us at every step of the way. Prior to this they had stitched Sir Tom up over the Lochend Butterfly land.

I also seem to recall an attempt to get things moving out at Vogrie before Hibs were alerted to the old farm at East Mains coming up for sale. East Lothian council had no such objections and Hibs were welcomed in.