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southsider
28-05-2017, 09:51 AM
Does anyone know why we adopted 'Arsenal' style white sleeves back in the 1930's ? Harry Swan had just become Chairman. Did he have a connection with Arsenal or was it just Harry making his mark ? One for the history guys.

NAE NOOKIE
28-05-2017, 10:05 AM
I've read that it was a simple matter of brightening up the teams image, apparently Mr Swan thought we were a bit dull. One of the best decisions made by the great Harry Swan which created one of the best strips in world football ..... not that I'm biased of course :greengrin

southern hibby
28-05-2017, 10:47 AM
Read an article a few years back when I was living down south in Englandshire about how referees seem to think it's a lot easier to spot infringements caused by the arms ( pulling shirts pushing etc) when a player is wearing white sleeves. If I remember correctly article said its a lot harder to spot infringements with darker coloured sleeves.

Not sure how correct this is but did wonder at the time if Hibs should try a season with all green tops just to see if it made a difference to amount of fouls we gave away.
GGTTH

Kato
28-05-2017, 10:55 AM
Does anyone know why we adopted 'Arsenal' style white sleeves back in the 1930's ? Harry Swan had just become Chairman. Did he have a connection with Arsenal or was it just Harry making his mark ? One for the history guys.

Hibs and Arsenal adopted white sleeves at the same time. The style was copied from the Austrian national team who had toured the UK the season before.

southsider
28-05-2017, 11:03 AM
Job and Arsenal adopted white sleeves at the same time. The style was copied from the Austrian national team who had toured the UK the season before.

Great stuff. Cheers for that

Roxyhibee
28-05-2017, 03:11 PM
Best strip in the world. Pretty sure those brilliant white sleeves are a factor in why we perform better under floodlights. I'm always more confident heading to ER for a winter night game.

Waxy
28-05-2017, 04:23 PM
I'd like to see us wear the all green top once a decade to commemorate the Hibs team who where the first Edinburgh team to win the Scottish cup. Every year ending in 7 would do me as in 1887. This would annoy some other locals.

Same Sleeves
28-05-2017, 10:19 PM
Hibs and Arsenal adopted white sleeves at the same time. The style was copied from the Austrian national team who had toured the UK the season before.

Arsenal history books have it down as Herbert Chapman noticing that someone in the crowd? or on the golf course? wearing a tank top over a white shirt was easy to pick out

Diclonius
28-05-2017, 10:28 PM
Read an article a few years back when I was living down south in Englandshire about how referees seem to think it's a lot easier to spot infringements caused by the arms ( pulling shirts pushing etc) when a player is wearing white sleeves. If I remember correctly article said its a lot harder to spot infringements with darker coloured sleeves.

Not sure how correct this is but did wonder at the time if Hibs should try a season with all green tops just to see if it made a difference to amount of fouls we gave away.
GGTTH

We did in 2014-15 - must be a way of checking our foul count.

SteveHFC
28-05-2017, 10:41 PM
We did in 2014-15 - must be a way of checking our foul count.

not sure about foul count but

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/scottish-championship/fairnesstabelle/wettbewerb/SC2/plus/1?saison_id=2014

GreenLake
29-05-2017, 04:29 AM
I'd like to see us wear the all green top once a decade to commemorate the Hibs team who where the first Edinburgh team to win the Scottish cup. Every year ending in 7 would do me as in 1887. This would annoy some other locals.

I would like to see us wear hoops at Parkhead.

Kato
29-05-2017, 07:02 AM
Arsenal history books have it down as Herbert Chapman noticing that someone in the crowd? or on the golf course? wearing a tank top over a white shirt was easy to pick out

Well they're not going to admit to copying Jonny Foreigner now are they. :wink:

That was the story I read mate, and Austria did tour around that time, with white sleeves and pretty soon after both Arsenal and Hibs had them too.

Jim44
29-05-2017, 07:11 AM
Read an article a few years back when I was living down south in Englandshire about how referees seem to think it's a lot easier to spot infringements caused by the arms ( pulling shirts pushing etc) when a player is wearing white sleeves. If I remember correctly article said its a lot harder to spot infringements with darker coloured sleeves.

Not sure how correct this is but did wonder at the time if Hibs should try a season with all green tops just to see if it made a difference to amount of fouls we gave away.
GGTTH

Interesting point about the lighter/whiter shirts being easier for refs to see infringements. I read a while ago that the wearing of brighter coloured boots made it easier for defenders to a detect and anticipate the intentions of attacking players. Don't know if that's tosh, however.

NAE NOOKIE
29-05-2017, 12:21 PM
Well they're not going to admit to copying Jonny Foreigner now are they. :wink:

That was the story I read mate, and Austria did tour around that time, with white sleeves and pretty soon after both Arsenal and Hibs had them too.

I always thought the black with white sleeves the Germans wore in 'escape to victory' was a quality strip :greengrin

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.MXnhJyAKbUW7FlVBETqarAEsEs&w=138&h=160&c=7&qlt=90&o=4&dpr=1.05&pid=1.7

delbert
29-05-2017, 01:21 PM
I'd like to see us wear the all green top once a decade to commemorate the Hibs team who where the first Edinburgh team to win the Scottish cup. Every year ending in 7 would do me as in 1887. This would annoy some other locals.

Not sure why but in the season when we did the 7-0 at Tynecastle wearing our normal white sleeves, at the home game earlier in the season we wore an all green top, won 2-0

Kato
29-05-2017, 01:53 PM
Not sure why but in the season when we did the 7-0 at Tynecastle wearing our normal white sleeves, at the home game earlier in the season we wore an all green top, won 2-0

...and Hearts wore their completely inappropriate Ajax type strip in the same match.

.Sean.
29-05-2017, 02:18 PM
Not sure why but in the season when we did the 7-0 at Tynecastle wearing our normal white sleeves, at the home game earlier in the season we wore an all green top, won 2-0
Why did they wear all green?

Bobo
29-05-2017, 02:43 PM
Hibs and Arsenal adopted white sleeves at the same time. The style was copied from the Austrian national team who had toured the UK the season before.

Arsenal adopted the white sleeves five years before Hibs made the change. IMO white sleeves look far better with the Green 🇳🇬🇳🇬

Hibs have always been innovative throughout our history, being first to introduce so many things into football. In terms of football strips we were the first to wear the Green and the first " senior" club to have a shirt sponsor but unfortunately can't lay claim to white sleeves ..... can't do everything ourselves :wink:

Hibernian .. "the team that leads where others like to follow" could be our motto. :aok:

Here's an interesting site about football strips for anyone who hasn't seen it before:

http://www.historicalkits.co.uk/Articles/History.htm

Kato
29-05-2017, 04:20 PM
Arsenal adopted the white sleeves five years before Hibs made the change. IMO white sleeves look far better with the Green 🇳🇬🇳🇬

Hibs have always been innovative throughout our history, being first to introduce so many things into football. In terms of football strips we were the first to wear the Green and the first " senior" club to have a shirt sponsor but unfortunately can't lay claim to white sleeves ..... can't do everything ourselves :wink:

Hibernian .. "the team that leads where others like to follow" could be our motto. :aok:

Here's an interesting site about football strips for anyone who hasn't seen it before:

http://www.historicalkits.co.uk/Articles/History.htm


Cheers,bud. It was a story I read, probably on here, which you've blown out the water by using facts. Very novel of you :wink:. So it looks like we did copy the Arse, there were a few friendlies between the clubs back then, maybe Swan picked up in I then.

Keith_M
29-05-2017, 05:38 PM
Arsenal definitely had white sleeves first but, to be fair, Aston Villa started the idea of having lighter sleeves.

Villa's current strip, Claret with Sky Blue Sleeves, was first worn in 1890, after a rather strange and motley collection of colours and styles.

heretoday
29-05-2017, 05:54 PM
Best strip in the world. Pretty sure those brilliant white sleeves are a factor in why we perform better under floodlights. I'm always more confident heading to ER for a winter night game.

Interesting point. I'm just happy when we're not playing in black. Can't stand that and it must be a bit harder to pick out teammates. I don't care what anyone says.

--------
29-05-2017, 05:57 PM
Hibs and Arsenal adopted white sleeves at the same time. The style was copied from the Austrian national team who had toured the UK the season before.


Arsenal history books have it down as Herbert Chapman noticing that someone in the crowd? or on the golf course? wearing a tank top over a white shirt was easy to pick out


Well they're not going to admit to copying Jonny Foreigner now are they. :wink:

That was the story I read mate, and Austria did tour around that time, with white sleeves and pretty soon after both Arsenal and Hibs had them too.


This is the story I heard, too. Austrian tour, golf course, white sleeves good, Arsenal and Hibs adopt new strips in imitation.

BTW - they weren't called 'tank tops' in those days. For most of my young life they were called 'sleeveless pullovers'; my mother knitted them for me, and I totally hated the things. Cricketers used to wear white ones with a border in the club colours on moderately chilly days until quite recently. If you got them long enough they kept your lower back and bum really warm. My mum didn't knit them long enough.

Aalborg Hibs
29-05-2017, 06:24 PM
I'm fairly certain there was something in an old program in the 80s about the white sleeves being adopted due to some connection with Arsenal, but the only notable player I know of was Bill Harper, who left Hibs for the Arse in 1925, and rejoined them again in the 30s after a stint in the States.

--------
29-05-2017, 06:35 PM
I'm fairly certain there was something in an old program in the 80s about the white sleeves being adopted due to some connection with Arsenal, but the only notable player I know of was Bill Harper, who left Hibs for the Arse in 1925, and rejoined them again in the 30s after a stint in the States.


It's in my mind that we played Arsenal in a friendly, possibly around the time of the 1938 Empire Exhibition, and Harry Swan was so impressed by their smart new shirts that he copied them for Hibs the following season?

Aalborg Hibs
29-05-2017, 06:45 PM
That rings a bell, sounds like the story I half remembered.

The transfer fee from Harper - 4 grand - was allegedly used to build the old main stand.

Colr
29-05-2017, 06:50 PM
Interesting point. I'm just happy when we're not playing in black. Can't stand that and it must be a bit harder to pick out teammates. I don't care what anyone says.

Yup. The New Zealand rugby squad really struggle with that.

Aalborg Hibs
29-05-2017, 06:54 PM
Ask Man U about THAT grey top......

Renfrew_Hibby
29-05-2017, 07:52 PM
Don't know the story behind Arsenal adopting the white sleeves but the story I was led to believe regards ourselves goes as follows...
Chapman had changed the strip and led Arsenal to 3 consecutive titles, first time in English football history.

Hibs had already decided to brighten our strip up by going from bottle green to emerald but chose to add the white sleeves in honor of Chapmans (a pround Scot and the Pride of the country at the time) achievement.

Tomsk
29-05-2017, 08:02 PM
Don't know the story behind Arsenal adopting the white sleeves but the story I was led to believe regards ourselves goes as follows...
Chapman had changed the strip and led Arsenal to 3 consecutive titles, first time in English football history.

Hibs had already decided to brighten our strip up by going from bottle green to emerald but chose to add the white sleeves in honor of Chapmans (a pround Scot and the Pride of the country at the time) achievement.

Herbert Chapman wasn't Scottish. Huddersfield won three consecutive championships in the 1920s, two of them under Herbert Chapman.

1van Sprou7e
29-05-2017, 08:08 PM
Arsenal adopted the white sleeves five years before Hibs made the change. IMO white sleeves look far better with the Green 🇳🇬🇳🇬

Hibs have always been innovative throughout our history, being first to introduce so many things into football. In terms of football strips we were the first to wear the Green and the first " senior" club to have a shirt sponsor but unfortunately can't lay claim to white sleeves ..... can't do everything ourselves :wink:

Hibernian .. "the team that leads where others like to follow" could be our motto. :aok:

Here's an interesting site about football strips for anyone who hasn't seen it before:

http://www.historicalkits.co.uk/Articles/History.htm


Apparently the first team to sing "Glory glory" as well (thanks Hector Nicol), although I can't find a proper source

ancient hibee
29-05-2017, 08:18 PM
My grandad always told me it was done to reduce the Irish Catholic influence.Swan wanted to ensure that Hibs was looked at as an entirely Scottish club.He invited the priests to pay for their tickets at the same time.

weecounty hibby
29-05-2017, 08:21 PM
Don't know the story behind Arsenal adopting the white sleeves but the story I was led to believe regards ourselves goes as follows...
Chapman had changed the strip and led Arsenal to 3 consecutive titles, first time in English football history.

Hibs had already decided to brighten our strip up by going from bottle green to emerald but chose to add the white sleeves in honor of Chapmans (a pround Scot and the Pride of the country at the time) achievement.
This is the story I was told and have always believed to be true. I was told that arsenal were originally an irish catholic club and therefore had some links to Hibs and that when Chapmans side had been so successful then Hibs changed their sleeves as a mark of respect

Renfrew_Hibby
29-05-2017, 08:23 PM
Herbert Chapman wasn't Scottish. Huddersfield won three consecutive championships in the 1920s, two of them under Herbert Chapman.

OK ok story I heard then was s h i t e

heretoday
29-05-2017, 11:00 PM
Yup. The New Zealand rugby squad really struggle with that.

Ha Ha! We're no All Blacks! But I take your point.

Baader
29-05-2017, 11:51 PM
Best strip in the world.

Indeed it is. Always had a soft spot for any other team that plays in green and white (with one notable exception...)

For such a naturally great colour match it's interesting to see how few teams worldwide actually play in green and white...

Baader
29-05-2017, 11:55 PM
This is the story I was told and have always believed to be true. I was told that arsenal were originally an irish catholic club and therefore had some links to Hibs and that when Chapmans side had been so successful then Hibs changed their sleeves as a mark of respect

Arsenal do have a big Irish contingent but probably most London clubs can claim that due to the Irish influence in the city. Certainly Highbury and especially neighbouring Finsbury Park had big Irish communities up until the mid '70s.

There's a proper old Irish boozer just up the road from The Emirates called The Auld Triangle which I used to frequent when I lived in the area. The famous Twelve Pins a bit further up the road on The Seven Sisters Road is another. Used to be in every Sunday as they showed Scottish football.

malcolm
30-05-2017, 06:44 AM
Arsenal do have a big Irish contingent but probably most London clubs can claim that due to the Irish influence in the city. Certainly Highbury and especially neighbouring Finsbury Park had big Irish communities up until the mid '70s.

There's a proper old Irish boozer just up the road from The Emirates called The Auld Triangle which I used to frequent when I lived in the area. The famous Twelve Pins a bit further up the road on The Seven Sisters Road is another. Used to be in every Sunday as they showed Scottish football.

Arsenal played in woolwich till 1913, founded by workers from an ammunitions factory with a scot prominent in their founding and with red the original colours... an Irish connection seems unlikely.. if there had been I'm sure Celtic fans would have claimed 'knees up mother brown' as their own anthem years ago :wink:

Same Sleeves
30-05-2017, 08:05 AM
Arsenal played in woolwich till 1913, founded by workers from an ammunitions factory with a scot prominent in their founding and with red the original colours... an Irish connection seems unlikely.. if there had been I'm sure Celtic fans would have claimed 'knees up mother brown' as their own anthem years ago :wink:

David Danskin a worker at the royal Arsenal from Burntisland Fife was the founder of Arsenal,he origanilly named the team Dial square fc and it was 3 ex Nottingham forest players who brought there old red kit with them when they moved south to work at the factory who determined the colour of the kit and the Irish connection is down to the Irish community's who moved to London to rebuild it after the war and the number of young Irishman who made it to the first team during the 70s
One of the most famous Arsenal songs is "Paddy got up and he sang it again,over and over and over again,bjesus said Paddy I sung it so well I think i'll get up and i'll sing it again" legend as it that it was first sung by Paddy on the terraces during the 1970 fairs cup win over Anderlecht

--------
30-05-2017, 10:25 AM
David Danskin a worker at the royal Arsenal from Burntisland Fife was the founder of Arsenal,he origanilly named the team Dial square fc and it was 3 ex Nottingham forest players who brought there old red kit with them when they moved south to work at the factory who determined the colour of the kit and the Irish connection is down to the Irish community's who moved to London to rebuild it after the war and the number of young Irishman who made it to the first team during the 70s
One of the most famous Arsenal songs is "Paddy got up and he sang it again,over and over and over again,bjesus said Paddy I sung it so well I think i'll get up and i'll sing it again" legend as it that it was first sung by Paddy on the terraces during the 1970 fairs cup win over Anderlecht


Would that be considered racist abuse of a minority these days? Has the world gone mad enough that Hibs fans couldn't sing it? The club being HIBERNIAN and having Irish roots and all?

NAE NOOKIE
30-05-2017, 11:11 AM
My grandad always told me it was done to reduce the Irish Catholic influence.Swan wanted to ensure that Hibs was looked at as an entirely Scottish club.He invited the priests to pay for their tickets at the same time.

Not sure how changing to white sleeves would have any effect on Hibs being perceived as Irish Catholic or not .... the strip would still be green & white, just with a wee bit less green in it.

This is like one of those art history programmes on BBC2 where every painting has to have a hidden meaning or agenda, where eventually you get to the stage where you begin to ask if it wasn't just the case that Leonardo Da Vinci thought Mona Lisa would be a fit bird tae paint or Van Gogh just liked the colour yellow ...... Couldn't it just be the case that Harry Swan saw Arsenal and though 'hmmm that's smart, I bet we would look good with white sleeves' :greengrin

AndyM_1875
30-05-2017, 12:19 PM
My grandad always told me it was done to reduce the Irish Catholic influence.Swan wanted to ensure that Hibs was looked at as an entirely Scottish club.He invited the priests to pay for their tickets at the same time.

Story I was told was that all Swan did was ask the priests to apply for tickets. They still got them as comps.
This was due to Hibs getting bigger crowds and nothing more than that. Harry Swan may have been the first non Catholic to hold shares but he was a supporter and a Leither.
Also when Harry Swan took over Hibs, the club was a tired old looking club, Hibs had just come out of spending 2 years in Division 2, back when there were 16 teams in each league. First thing he did was get Easter Road painted and put bright green goal nets in. Then he changed the strip to the absolute classic we have worn mainly since 1938.
And after that you have the Famous Five....... it's a pretty good legacy.

AndyM_1875
30-05-2017, 12:24 PM
Would that be considered racist abuse of a minority these days? Has the world gone mad enough that Hibs fans couldn't sing it? The club being HIBERNIAN and having Irish roots and all?

Am sure Nick Horby's "Fever Pitch" refers to Arsenal away fans singing Irish songs during the George Graham era.

Aalborg Hibs
30-05-2017, 01:58 PM
Spider Stacy from The Pogues is a massive Arsenal fan. Shane MacGowan is too....that might have something to do with the Irish songs.

Kato
30-05-2017, 03:32 PM
Story I was told was that all Swan did was ask the priests to apply for tickets. They still got them as comps.
This was due to Hibs getting bigger crowds and nothing more than that. Harry Swan may have been the first non Catholic to hold shares but he was a supporter and a Leither.
Also when Harry Swan took over Hibs, the club was a tired old looking club, Hibs had just come out of spending 2 years in Division 2, back when there were 16 teams in each league. First thing he did was get Easter Road painted and put bright green goal nets in. Then he changed the strip to the absolute classic we have worn mainly since 1938.
And after that you have the Famous Five....... it's a pretty good legacy.

He also appointed a priest as padre to the players. Hardly the of someone Anti-Catholic.

Wish idea seen those green nets.

Bishop Hibee
30-05-2017, 03:37 PM
Am sure Nick Horby's "Fever Pitch" refers to Arsenal away fans singing Irish songs during the George Graham era.

Indeed he does. Kilburn in north London has a big Irish population. Makes sense that a lot of them chose Arsenal as a team to support.

Green with white sleeves looks majestic.

ancient hibee
30-05-2017, 03:46 PM
He also appointed a priest as padre to the players. Hardly the of someone Anti-Catholic.

Wish idea seen those green nets.
Swan wasn't anti catholic but there were plenty people in Edinburgh who were .Swan didn't want Hibs thought of as a catholic club at a time when there were mobs marching against Catholics in Morningside of all places and Bailie John Cormack and his Protestant Action Neanderthals gearing up.

Thought you were in Italy.

--------
30-05-2017, 03:54 PM
Story I was told was that all Swan did was ask the priests to apply for tickets. They still got them as comps.
This was due to Hibs getting bigger crowds and nothing more than that. Harry Swan may have been the first non Catholic to hold shares but he was a supporter and a Leither.

Also when Harry Swan took over Hibs, the club was a tired old looking club, Hibs had just come out of spending 2 years in Division 2, back when there were 16 teams in each league. First thing he did was get Easter Road painted and put bright green goal nets in. Then he changed the strip to the absolute classic we have worn mainly since 1938.

And after that you have the Famous Five....... it's a pretty good legacy.


Absolutely, Andy. All he wanted was to know who was going to turn up each week so that no seat was left unoccupied.

Harry was one of the great men of Scottish football. He did so much for Hibernian, as you say, and he was also one of the small number of true visionaries who were responsible for the birth of European football in the immediate post-war years - he saw the sport as a potential healing influence in Europe after the disasters of the Second World War. That was the ideal behind the setting up of the European Champions' Cup, which Hibs played in during its inaugural season. There was a lot of opposition to the idea in the UK - Alan Hardaker refused to allow the English Champions, Chelsea, to play, and the SFA and most Scottish clubs weren't interested either. Harry Swan worked with people like Gabriel Hanot and Jacques Ferran to get the first tournament set up, and as I understand it, Hibs were invited to play as Scotland's representatives because of that.

I was too young, but my father was regularly at ER in those days, and he used to tell me that big matches - derbies, OF games, big Cup-ties and so on - were pretty well non-smoking affairs because the crowds were so packed on the terraces that no one could get into their pockets for their fags and matches. If only we could get back there ....

--------
30-05-2017, 03:56 PM
Swan wasn't anti catholic but there were plenty people in Edinburgh who were .Swan didn't want Hibs thought of as a catholic club at a time when there were mobs marching against Catholics in Morningside of all places and Bailie John Cormack and his Protestant Action Neanderthals gearing up.

Thought you were in Italy.


There still are, ancient. Just a wee bit less visible these days.

Kato
30-05-2017, 03:57 PM
Swan wasn't anti catholic but there were plenty people in Edinburgh who were .Swan didn't want Hibs thought of as a catholic club at a time when there were mobs marching against Catholics in Morningside of all places and Bailie John Cormack and his Protestant Action Neanderthals gearing up.

Thought you were in Italy.

Nup.

How does white sleeves move other peoples perception of Hibs away from being a Catholic club, whilst at the same time appoiting a Catholic priest as padre to the players? Swan has been portrayed as a bigot and "an orangeman" by others but if you look at his actions he was anything but.

AndyM_1875
31-05-2017, 12:45 PM
Nup.

How does white sleeves move other peoples perception of Hibs away from being a Catholic club, whilst at the same time appoiting a Catholic priest as padre to the players? Swan has been portrayed as a bigot and "an orangeman" by others but if you look at his actions he was anything but.

The only people who peddle that nonsense about Harry Swan are moon howling Sellik types who scrabble around looking for conspiracies at everything.

Kato
31-05-2017, 01:00 PM
The only people who peddle that nonsense about Harry Swan are moon howling Sellik types who scrabble around looking for conspiracies at everything.

The blowback being that some Hibs fans believe it too.

AndyM_1875
31-05-2017, 02:01 PM
The blowback being that some Hibs fans believe it too.

If true then I suggest they seek mental help.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
01-06-2017, 11:00 AM
Considering its very innocuous title, this thread has been a wee diamond. Learned loads i never knew.

As for our own white sleeves, id always thought it was just because arsenal were the top team, and the red body, white sleeves, white shorts combo just looked the part.

I know im biased, but i do still think ours is one of the best strips around, when it is done right.

Purple & Green
21-10-2020, 10:44 PM
Rapid Vienna have a European strip this year, green with white sleeves inspired from their strip of the 1930. We had played Rapid a few years previous to this and indeed would play them again after we had introduced white sleeves. I think there’s something in that.

heretoday
22-10-2020, 12:18 AM
The only reason that I started supporting Hibs was that they played in white sleeves. It just seemed like a groovy thing.

Since452
22-10-2020, 05:29 AM
Green top with white sleeves is the best looking shirt in world football

BILLYHIBS
22-10-2020, 06:27 AM
Green top with white sleeves is the best looking shirt in world football

Looks even better under the lights on a European Night or beating the Hearts night or day even better

:cb

oxymoron
22-10-2020, 07:13 AM
Not sure how changing to white sleeves would have any effect on Hibs being perceived as Irish Catholic or not .... the strip would still be green & white, just with a wee bit less green in it.

This is like one of those art history programmes on BBC2 where every painting has to have a hidden meaning or agenda, where eventually you get to the stage where you begin to ask if it wasn't just the case that Leonardo Da Vinci thought Mona Lisa would be a fit bird tae paint or Van Gogh just liked the colour yellow ...... Couldn't it just be the case that Harry Swan saw Arsenal and though 'hmmm that's smart, I bet we would look good with white sleeves' :greengrin

:top marks

Keith_M
22-10-2020, 07:22 AM
Rapid Vienna have a European strip this year, green with white sleeves inspired from their strip of the 1930. We had played Rapid a few years previous to this and indeed would play them again after we had introduced white sleeves. I think there’s something in that.


They've played in green with white sleeves quite a lot.

That was actually their home strip shortly before I moved to Vienna and a lot of their fans still wore it to games.

fat freddy
22-10-2020, 07:32 AM
Leonard Cohen explains everything in his classic 1974 track 'Leaving Greensleeves'
He puts himself in Harry Swans shoes and allows us an insight into his thoughts as he discarded the green sleeves.

James Stephen
22-10-2020, 09:06 AM
Swan wasn't anti catholic but there were plenty people in Edinburgh who were .Swan didn't want Hibs thought of as a catholic club at a time when there were mobs marching against Catholics in Morningside of all places and Bailie John Cormack and his Protestant Action Neanderthals gearing up.

Thought you were in Italy.

This is my take on Swan too.

Not anti-catholic or anti- Irish, but neither was he particularly pro - i think he was a pragmatist and a moderniser.

That does mean that he probably felt less affinity with our Irish symbolism than previous owners/highheidyins, and so would have been more open to change.

Personally i think its a shame that we lost what we did, but given Protestant Action won 30% of the vote in local elections and were the most successful extremist party in UK electoral history up until the BNP beat them a few years back, the extreme anti irish anti catholic feeling in wider society does provide context, and does have to be understood.

lapsedhibee
22-10-2020, 10:07 AM
Leonard Cohen explains everything in his classic 1974 track 'Leaving Greensleeves'
He puts himself in Harry Swans shoes and allows us an insight into his thoughts as he discarded the green sleeves.

:greengrin

superfurryhibby
22-10-2020, 10:09 AM
This is my take on Swan too.

Not anti-catholic or anti- Irish, but neither was he particularly pro - i think he was a pragmatist and a moderniser.

That does mean that he probably felt less affinity with our Irish symbolism than previous owners/highheidyins, and so would have been more open to change.

Personally i think its a shame that we lost what we did, but given Protestant Action won 30% of the vote in local elections and were the most successful extremist party in UK electoral history up until the BNP beat them a few years back, the extreme anti irish anti catholic feeling in wider society does provide context, and does have to be understood.

What did we lose?

Prior to Swan the club was struggling financially, it had been relegated for the first time in its history and the shares were held amongst a small group of families who lacked the vision to take the club forward. Swan built a massive terracing, oversaw three titles and made us a modern forward facing club.

Prof. Shaggy
22-10-2020, 10:14 AM
Leonard Cohen explains everything in his classic 1974 track 'Leaving Greensleeves'
He puts himself in Harry Swans shoes and allows us an insight into his thoughts as he discarded the green sleeves.

Lovely!

Keith_M
22-10-2020, 10:20 AM
What did we lose?

Prior to Swan the club was struggling financially, it had been relegated for the first time in its history and the shares were held amongst a small group of families who lacked the vision to take the club forward. Swan built a massive terracing, oversaw three titles and made us a modern forward facing club.


I was wondering that as well.

The club was still called Hibernian and still played in green and white, but after Swan took over, there was a much wider fan base.

Surely that's a gain, not a loss.

James Stephen
22-10-2020, 10:47 AM
What did we lose?

Prior to Swan the club was struggling financially, it had been relegated for the first time in its history and the shares were held amongst a small group of families who lacked the vision to take the club forward. Swan built a massive terracing, oversaw three titles and made us a modern forward facing club.

I appreciate all that, and im not saying swan was bad for hibs, quite the opposite.

But his vision did involve the club moving away, at least in part, from its roots. The harps being taken off the stadium, being a visual example.

Id say that hibs slightly confused and at times, uneasy relationship with our own history probably resulted from this.

James Stephen
22-10-2020, 10:49 AM
I was wondering that as well.

The club was still called Hibernian and still played in green and white, but after Swan took over, there was a much wider fan base.

Surely that's a gain, not a loss.

Ive answered below.

Kato
22-10-2020, 11:03 AM
I appreciate all that, and im not saying swan was bad for hibs, quite the opposite.

But his vision did involve the club moving away, at least in part, from its roots. The harps being taken off the stadium, being a visual example.

Id say that hibs slightly confused and at times, uneasy relationship with our own history probably resulted from this.It wasn't part of his vision for Hibs to have the Harp removed. The Harp was taken down as part of building works in the 1950's, 20 years after Swan arrived.

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superfurryhibby
22-10-2020, 11:17 AM
It wasn't part of his vision for Hibs to have the Harp removed. The Harp was taken down as part of building works in the 1950's, 20 years after Swan arrived.

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Apparently there was a Harp mural commissioned and presented to Swan round about the same time which sat proudly in the boardroom

There’s a very good piece written by a Hibee which totally debunks all the Swan related slurs that emanate from along the M8 in relation to his fictitious up anti-catholicism, the mythical proposal to change the colours and all other such gash talk.

I don’t think the club would have had any regrets about the direction Hibs moved in under Swan. He’s undoubtedly one of the key figures in our history. Hibs navigated impending financial ruin at the beginning of his custodianship, within ten years of his Chairmanship we were one of the World best teams, playing in a massive stadium and on a glorious journey.

James Stephen
22-10-2020, 11:38 AM
It wasn't part of his vision for Hibs to have the Harp removed. The Harp was taken down as part of building works in the 1950's, 20 years after Swan arrived.

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I think Swan was a visonary, but there is no doubt in my mind that part of that vision was to make Hibs more appealing to non traditional supporters, a large number of whom were pretty anti Irish and anti catholic.

Therefore i think his vision involved moving away from the explicitly Irish nationalist approach Hibs had taken previously. And probably it worked, and certainly helped to put Hibs in a very strong position to take advantage of the post war boom.

I dont think that makes him anti anything, it just made him either ambivalent enough, or pragmatic enough, to think Hibs traditions were holding them back. And maybe he was right.

But i think Hibs did lose something in that mindset which dominated the club into the late 90s early 00s. The fact that Hibs required 2 or 3 iterations of the badge before they reestablished the harp to its rightful place, speaks to that.

So im not saying swan was right or wrong in his approach - i think he was probably right and his approach was vindicated. But, it did come at a cost. That may have been a cost that most Hibs fans think was worth it, of course.

Keith_M
22-10-2020, 11:48 AM
I think Swan was a visonary, but there is no doubt in my mind that part of that vision was to make Hibs more appealing to non traditional supporters, a large number of whom were pretty anti Irish and anti catholic.

Therefore i think his vision involved moving away from the explicitly Irish nationalist approach Hibs had taken previously. And probably it worked, and certainly helped to put Hibs in a very strong position to take advantage of the post war boom.

I dont think that makes him anti anything, it just made him either ambivalent enough, or pragmatic enough, to think Hibs traditions were holding them back. And maybe he was right.

But i think Hibs did lose something in that mindset which dominated the club into the late 90s early 00s. The fact that Hibs required 2 or 3 iterations of the badge before they reestablished the harp to its rightful place, speaks to that.

So im not saying swan was right or wrong in his approach - i think he was probably right and his approach was vindicated. But, it did come at a cost. That may have been a cost that most Hibs fans think was worth it, of course.



I do appreciate the effort you made to explain your Pov (honestly, no sarcasm or anything) but I'm not sure we genuinely lost anything. Hibs hadn't played with a harp on their top for decades before Swan arrived, so it's not like that was actually lost.

I say that as somebody that has no Catholic Irish heritage that I'm aware of but also love the current configuration of the badge (including the Harp), as it gives the essence of who we are.

I think it would probably have been much harder, though, to re-introduce the Harp immediately after the war, as there was still some resentment to Ireland due to their neutral stance. Thankfully that mindset has long since gone in most people.

superfurryhibby
22-10-2020, 11:52 AM
I think Swan was a visonary, but there is no doubt in my mind that part of that vision was to make Hibs more appealing to non traditional supporters, a large number of whom were pretty anti Irish and anti catholic.

Therefore i think his vision involved moving away from the explicitly Irish nationalist approach Hibs had taken previously. And probably it worked, and certainly helped to put Hibs in a very strong position to take advantage of the post war boom.

I dont think that makes him anti anything, it just made him either ambivalent enough, or pragmatic enough, to think Hibs traditions were holding them back. And maybe he was right.

But i think Hibs did lose something in that mindset which dominated the club into the late 90s early 00s. The fact that Hibs required 2 or 3 iterations of the badge before they reestablished the harp to its rightful place, speaks to that.

So im not saying swan was right or wrong in his approach - i think he was probably right and his approach was vindicated. But, it did come at a cost. That may have been a cost that most Hibs fans think was worth it, of course.

Not sure there was any “cost”. You’ll need to elaborate on that one?

When you see the nonsense that accompanies the Glasgow derby, I think we absolutely did the right thing to move the club on from the perception that surrounded it up until the Swan era.

The broader climate changed and the return of the Harp to our club’s identity came with the end to the troubles and a shift in the supporters outlook. My memory tells me that there was still a strong anti orange identity amongst our fans well into the 80’s . This would particularly manifest during *games v the Hun, with songs about King Billy’s army of a 100,000 men and dying an orange bassa etc. By the late 90’s this was no longer part of our fans repertoire.

James Stephen
22-10-2020, 12:00 PM
I do appreciate the effort you made to explain your Pov (honestly, no sarcasm or anything) but I'm not sure we genuinely lost anything. Hibs hadn't played with a harp on their top for decades before Swan arrived, so it's not like that was actually lost.

I say that as somebody that has no Catholic Irish heritage that I'm aware of but also love the current configuration of the badge (including the Harp), as it gives the essence of who we are.

I think it would probably have been much harder, though, to re-introduce the Harp immediately after the war, as there was still some resentment to Ireland due to their neutral stance. Thankfully that mindset has long since gone in most people.

I think lots of Hibs fans would agree with you - and your last para kinda sums it up. There was always a reason for Hibs to shy away from their history, be it when they were founded, be it after the 1916 rising and the establishment of the free state, during the 30s with PA on the march in edinburgh, post war for the reasons you state, into the 60s 70s and 80s due to the troubles. But for many hibs fans that was surrendering theirs, and the clubs identity and history to apease prejudice and suspicion.

As i say, i think Hibs history and identity is complex and fascinating.

Also i think Swan's willingness to change the strip indicates that he wasnt afraid to slay a few sacred cows in the name of progress. I mean changing a clubs strip is no small thing, and imagine the debate it would cause now!

I am sure Swan acted in what he thought was Hibs best interests, and his ownership of the club was the golden era.

Such arguments dominate football still, as we are seeing in England regularly.

James Stephen
22-10-2020, 12:19 PM
Not sure there was any “cost”. You’ll need to elaborate on that one?

When you see the nonsense that accompanies the Glasgow derby, I think we absolutely did the right thing to move the club on from the perception that surrounded it up until the Swan era.

The broader climate changed and the return of the Harp to our club’s identity came with the end to the troubles and a shift in the supporters outlook. My memory tells me that there was still a strong anti orange identity amongst our fans well into the 80’s . This would particularly manifest during *games v the Hun, with songs about King Billy’s army of a 100,000 men and dying an orange bassa etc. By the late 90’s this was no longer part of our fans repertoire.


Yeah i remember that in the 80s and early 90s, against the huns, but this was also the era that the Irish flag was - supposedly - banned from Easter Road (may have been an apocryphal story) - its actually a good example of the complex identity of the club and its support.

Here is an example, that ties into another big discussion on the board around potential European leagues in the future.

What if, a European league emerged, and Ron Gordon wanted Hibs at its centre. So we enter, and bumble around for a few years. Then, some market research comes out that says that the main TV market for this new league find Hibernian difficult to say, and it is hindering the clubs growth, so they propose to change the name to Edinburgh Hibs instead,. The move goes through, some fans hate it, more dont like it but enough acquiesce. However, the foreign markets love it, and Hibs start to grow their commercial income hugely in overseas markets, they become associated much more closely with Edinburgh, and all of the rise in interest, crowds and sponsorship that brings. Hibs grow significantly as a result, and soon have much higher revenues, driving on field success and higher crowds, the stadium is expanded and by some miracle coming together of great manager, great players, and a wee bit of luck, Hibs win the new North European league (or whatever it is called), and go on from there.

In 60, 70 or 80 years, Ron Gordon is (correctly) lauded as the visionary man who made this happen, and while he absolutely wasn't anti Irish etc, he wasn't going to let a wee thing like whether to use our full name, or our abbreviated nickname (which most people used most of the time anyway), get in the way of the club fulfilling its potential, especially when it was preventing the club from tapping into a whole new support base and growing and becoming more successful.

Would our club have lost something in that process? Would fans in 80 years time, who had only ever known the club as Edinburgh Hibs care? And would those future fans feel like they had lost anything in the process of substantially growing the club and achieving notable success?

I would suggest that the club would have lost something, but that future fans (or a great majority) wouldn't care and wouldn't see it that way.

I would imagine that the reforms Swan introduced - none of which were huge in and of themselves - might have been a similar scenario.

And in terms of what was lost, I think an appreciation and a deference for our history and heritage was lost (thankfully not forever, and this has been rolled back to an extent), the harp was lost for generations (the fact it was reinstated suggests many also felt it had been wrongfully removed), and of course the famous green shirts were lost. Having grown up knowing nothing but our present day strips, i'm content with that, but I wonder what the people who were around at the time would think?

Apologies for the very long post, I should say I genuinely don't think there is a right or wrong answer to any of this, it is all about individual perception.

Kato
22-10-2020, 12:25 PM
I think lots of Hibs fans would agree with you - and your last para kinda sums it up. There was always a reason for Hibs to shy away from their history, be it when they were founded, be it after the 1916 rising and the establishment of the free state, during the 30s with PA on the march in edinburgh, post war for the reasons you state, into the 60s 70s and 80s due to the troubles. But for many hibs fans that was surrendering theirs, and the clubs identity and history to apease prejudice and suspicion.

As i say, i think Hibs history and identity is complex and fascinating.

Also i think Swan's willingness to change the strip indicates that he wasnt afraid to slay a few sacred cows in the name of progress. I mean changing a clubs strip is no small thing, and imagine the debate it would cause now!

I am sure Swan acted in what he thought was Hibs best interests, and his ownership of the club was the golden era.

Such arguments dominate football still, as we are seeing in England regularly.Whatever theories about attracting potential anti-catholic/anti-Irish fans you believe taking the Harp down from the front of the old entrance just isn't part of one nor is it true.

It was taken down due the frontage being demolished 20 years into Swans tenure. A new Harp was instated in the board room and presented to Swan when he sold the club on.

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Pagan Hibernia
22-10-2020, 12:28 PM
Apparently there was a Harp mural commissioned and presented to Swan round about the same time which sat proudly in the boardroom

There’s a very good piece written by a Hibee which totally debunks all the Swan related slurs that emanate from along the M8 in relation to his fictitious up anti-catholicism, the mythical proposal to change the colours and all other such gash talk.

I don’t think the club would have had any regrets about the direction Hibs moved in under Swan. He’s undoubtedly one of the key figures in our history. Hibs navigated impending financial ruin at the beginning of his custodianship, within ten years of his Chairmanship we were one of the World best teams, playing in a massive stadium and on a glorious journey.

I wonder where that mural would be now? It should be in the club museum.

James Stephen
22-10-2020, 12:37 PM
Whatever theories about attracting potential anti-catholic/anti-Irish fans you believe taking the Harp down from the front of the old entrance just isn't part of one nor is it true.

It was taken down due the frontage being demolished 20 years into Swans tenure. A new Harp was instated in the board room and presented to Swan when he sold the club on.

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I don't think there is any doubt that the Harp went from the being clubs recognised symbol, to not being, and it was 'lost' as a recognised symbol of the club for generations.

Either that was done deliberately (in which case it was done for a reason), or it was done by accident (in which case it wasn't seen as important enough to reinstate). Both scenarios tell a story, imo.

superfurryhibby
22-10-2020, 12:38 PM
I wonder where that mural would be now? It should be in the club museum.

From memory, it was presented to Swan’s widow after the great man died. You would hope it’s a family heirloom.

I remember interviewing Jim Gray years ago and asking him about archived stuff. He said that sadly people hadn’t really had the foresight to appreciate the value in old stuff, like contracts and the like. Very little had been saved for posterity. Imagine a Gordon Smith or Eddie Turnbull contract in the club’s museum.

James Stephen
22-10-2020, 12:50 PM
From memory, it was presented to Swan’s widow after the great man died. You would hope it’s a family heirloom.

I remember interviewing Jim Gray years ago and asking him about archived stuff. He said that sadly people hadn’t really had the foresight to appreciate the value in old stuff, like contracts and the like. Very little had been saved for posterity. Imagine a Gordon Smith or Eddie Turnbull contract in the club’s museum.


Its such a shame, when you think of the things that will have been lost over the decades, or are rotting in someone's attic somewhere.

Does this apply to things like the league winning flags? I don't recall ever having seen any of those on any of the tours etc?

Brizo
22-10-2020, 01:32 PM
Whatever theories about attracting potential anti-catholic/anti-Irish fans you believe taking the Harp down from the front of the old entrance just isn't part of one nor is it true.

It was taken down due the frontage being demolished 20 years into Swans tenure. A new Harp was instated in the board room and presented to Swan when he sold the club on.

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While this is true, the club had ceased using the harp to represent itself in its day to day business from the end of WW2 onwards. The crest that appeared on club blazers, League Winners medals, club correspondence and the Coronation Cup Final programme was the Edinburgh coat of arms amended to include a football and the title "Edinburgh Hibernian FC". The club had effectively re-branded itself from 1945 while retaining the mosaic harp above the main stand for historical and heritage reasons.

The most likely reason for this is that post-war football was booming and no place more than ER were the Famous Five team attracted tens of thousands of new fans, most of whom had no connection to our origins. Re-branding the club with a much stronger Edinburgh identity would recognize, and be appreciated by, this new supporter base while retaining the Harp above the main stand would continue to acknowledge our origins.

A factor that may have made this decision easier was that the post-war Board no longer contained any Directors with Irish Catholic heritage who may have been more welded to retaining our original crest than others. Keith Ms point about ROIs neutrality during WW2 is an additional factor with the sensitivities of returning servicemen and those who had lost loved ones during the war to be considered.

The late Alan Lugtons excellent trilogy firmly debunks the myth that Harry Swan was anti-Irish or anti-Catholic.

As to the Harp mosaics current whereabouts an old Southside Hibby well versed in the club's history told me that one of Swan's descendants who is a current ST holder has it in their possession.

Mick O'Rourke
22-10-2020, 04:35 PM
While this is true, the club had ceased using the harp to represent itself in its day to day business from the end of WW2 onwards. The crest that appeared on club blazers, League Winners medals, club correspondence and the Coronation Cup Final programme was the Edinburgh coat of arms amended to include a football and the title "Edinburgh Hibernian FC". The club had effectively re-branded itself from 1945 while retaining the mosaic harp above the main stand for historical and heritage reasons.

The most likely reason for this is that post-war football was booming and no place more than ER were the Famous Five team attracted tens of thousands of new fans, most of whom had no connection to our origins. Re-branding the club with a much stronger Edinburgh identity would recognize, and be appreciated by, this new supporter base while retaining the Harp above the main stand would continue to acknowledge our origins.

A factor that may have made this decision easier was that the post-war Board no longer contained any Directors with Irish Catholic heritage who may have been more welded to retaining our original crest than others. Keith Ms point about ROIs neutrality during WW2 is an additional factor with the sensitivities of returning servicemen and those who had lost loved ones during the war to be considered.

The late Alan Lugtons excellent trilogy firmly debunks the myth that Harry Swan was anti-Irish or anti-Catholic.

As to the Harp mosaics current whereabouts an old Southside Hibby well versed in the club's history told me that one of Swan's descendants who is a current ST holder has it in their possession.







You mention Alan Lugton
As a wee schoolboy, late 50s early 60s, i travelled to away games on the St Giles bus
As did Alan Lugton
I recall many Irish Songs being sung on the bus though sometimes bus convener would call a halt to some of the songs
One chant, though that i did not realise the significance till i was older, was against Harry Swan
"we'll hang Harry Swan wae a rope aroond his neck" was the chant

The removal of The Harp being responsible for this chant?

Older fans may recall that Hibs"iost"a number of supporters who objected to the removal of the.Harp
Interestingly a Celtic SC was started in Edinburgh's Southside during this period.

A Hi-Bee
22-10-2020, 04:49 PM
You mention Alan Lugton
As a wee schoolboy, late 50s early 60s, i travelled to away games on the St Giles bus
As did Alan Lugton
I recall many Irish Songs being sung on the bus though sometimes bus convener would call a halt to some of the songs
One chant, though that i did not realise the significance till i was older, was against Harry Swan
"we'll hang Harry Swan wae a rope aroond his neck" was the chant

The removal of The Harp being responsible for this chant>

Older fans may recall that Hibs"iost"a number of supporters who objected to the removal of the.Harp
Interestingly a Celtic SC was started in Edinburgh's Southside during this period.

I always thought that the chant was directed at him due to selling Joe Baker, could be wrong.

Mick O'Rourke
22-10-2020, 05:07 PM
I always thought that the chant was directed at him due to selling Joe Baker, could be wrong.

Me too at some point
Could be both reasons:greengrin
Harry certainly alienated many fans by not re erecting the Harp after building work

Change is sometimes difficult to deal with.
The Harp returning made me happy
Another chairman toyed with the idea of changing our colours !!!

Brizo
22-10-2020, 05:14 PM
You mention Alan Lugton
As a wee schoolboy, late 50s early 60s, i travelled to away games on the St Giles bus
As did Alan Lugton
I recall many Irish Songs being sung on the bus though sometimes bus convener would call a halt to some of the songs
One chant, though that i did not realise the significance till i was older, was against Harry Swan
"we'll hang Harry Swan wae a rope aroond his neck" was the chant

The removal of The Harp being responsible for this chant>

Older fans may recall that Hibs"iost"a number of supporters who objected to the removal of the.Harp
Interestingly a Celtic SC was started in Edinburgh's Southside during this period.

Interesting stuff Mick.

As an Old Town boy it's always fascinating to read your anecdotes of "The Market" and those city centre areas that, even in my childhood , still contained quite a lot of "Little Ireland" Hibbies

Mick O'Rourke
22-10-2020, 05:27 PM
Interesting stuff Mick.

As an Old Town boy it's always fascinating to read your anecdotes of "The Market" and those city centre areas that, even in my childhood , still contained quite a lot of "Little Ireland" Hibbies


Yes, at the time i mention many members of the St Giles Branch who hailed from the Market Coogate area could trace family back to Hibs origins.

Many who left the Market area for the schemes(social engineering) still returned to travel on the bus and socialise with old friends in places like O'Rourke's pub (no relation)

EI255
22-10-2020, 05:45 PM
I started supporting Hibernian in 1901 because I liked the all green.

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Since452
22-10-2020, 06:07 PM
I started supporting Hibernian in 1901 because I liked the all green.

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Gutted you've seen us win more Scottish Cups than me

James Stephen
22-10-2020, 07:38 PM
You mention Alan Lugton
As a wee schoolboy, late 50s early 60s, i travelled to away games on the St Giles bus
As did Alan Lugton
I recall many Irish Songs being sung on the bus though sometimes bus convener would call a halt to some of the songs
One chant, though that i did not realise the significance till i was older, was against Harry Swan
"we'll hang Harry Swan wae a rope aroond his neck" was the chant

The removal of The Harp being responsible for this chant>

Older fans may recall that Hibs"iost"a number of supporters who objected to the removal of the.Harp
Interestingly a Celtic SC was started in Edinburgh's Southside during this period.

Great stuff, also love reading your old town anecdotes, my faithers side are from the coogate so its great to hear.

EI255
22-10-2020, 08:16 PM
Gutted you've seen us win more Scottish Cups than meI still drink at the Hibernian Bar too.

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JimBHibees
22-10-2020, 09:16 PM
Was Harry Swan not the owner when we won 3 leagues in about ten years?

Keith_M
23-10-2020, 07:06 AM
Was Harry Swan not the owner when we won 3 leagues in about ten years?


Yeah, this thread's taken a really weird turn.

G B Young
23-10-2020, 09:54 AM
From memory, it was presented to Swan’s widow after the great man died. You would hope it’s a family heirloom.

I remember interviewing Jim Gray years ago and asking him about archived stuff. He said that sadly people hadn’t really had the foresight to appreciate the value in old stuff, like contracts and the like. Very little had been saved for posterity. Imagine a Gordon Smith or Eddie Turnbull contract in the club’s museum.

On a similar subject I recall many years ago meeting the guy who was (I think) the head librarian at the Scotsman/Evening News photo library. Bill Brady might have been his name. When I asked if it might be possible to order some old pics of the Famous Five era for my dad he said that countless glass negatives from that era had been destroyed, partly to make space in the library and also because (as you say) folk didn't really see the long-term value in such things. As a result they possessed far fewer pics of Edinburgh football in that era than they should have. I had wondered before that why you so often saw the same pic of Gordon Smith etc reprinted and why there don't appear to be many pics around of Hibs and Hearts lifting the league trophy etc.

Pagan Hibernia
23-10-2020, 10:19 AM
Was Harry Swan not the owner when we won 3 leagues in about ten years?

3 in 5 seasons

erin go bragh
23-10-2020, 10:34 AM
3 in 5 seasons
Lost out on goal average in one of them .Still the first team from the East to win back to back league titles .

Pagan Hibernia
23-10-2020, 11:00 AM
Lost out on goal average in one of them .Still the first team from the East to win back to back league titles .

yep. Champions in 48, 51 and 52.

missed out by 2 points in 47, a single point in 50, and goal average when going for the hat trick in 53.

a truly beautiful period that will never be seen again.

Keith_M
23-10-2020, 11:35 AM
I have to get dressed up today and I'm considering wearing a white shirt but, after reading this thread, I'm now worried that I might somehow be subconsciously trying to downplay Hibs' Irish Catholic heritage, what with it having white sleeves....

Kato
23-10-2020, 12:20 PM
I have to get dressed up today and I'm considering wearing a white shirt but, after reading this thread, I'm now worried that I might somehow be subconsciously trying to downplay Hibs' Irish Catholic heritage, what with it having white sleeves....Nibbling away at the green bit by bit on the off chance some bigots might think they'll now pop along and support the Hibs.

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AndyM_1875
23-10-2020, 12:45 PM
You mention Alan Lugton
As a wee schoolboy, late 50s early 60s, i travelled to away games on the St Giles bus
As did Alan Lugton
I recall many Irish Songs being sung on the bus though sometimes bus convener would call a halt to some of the songs
One chant, though that i did not realise the significance till i was older, was against Harry Swan
"we'll hang Harry Swan wae a rope aroond his neck" was the chant

The removal of The Harp being responsible for this chant?

Older fans may recall that Hibs"iost"a number of supporters who objected to the removal of the.Harp
Interestingly a Celtic SC was started in Edinburgh's Southside during this period.

My late father in law told me a few tales about following Hibs in the 50s and 60s. He was from East Lothian and knew Jimmy Kerr the keeper from the 48 league championship side (and later a director and friend of Tom Hart) who used to had him comp tickets for ER on occasion.
He said that the fans he palled about with were often critical of Mr Swan but mainly for being a tightwad and that they blamed Swan for nearly losing Lawrie Reilly over money and then losing Joe Baker over something like a fiver a week or something. There were often heated disagreements over where the money at Hibs were going when the club was doing well, playing regularly in front of huge crowds and then getting into stand offs with players over smallish sums of money.

Bishop Hibee
24-10-2020, 08:27 AM
Most club owners in Scotland were tight fisted. It took the Bosman ruling to change that.