Manchester Arena explosion

[Sir David Gray]

Reports of a major incident this evening following a concert by Ariana Grande at the Manchester Arena.

Greater Manchester Police have confirmed there have been several fatalities.

No further news just now or any other official confirmation as to what's caused this but there are suggestions of it being terror related.

[Hibee87]

Horrible events unfolding

[frazeHFC]

Awful stuff. When the news first broke through I thought/hoped it was a false panic, but seems as if something awful has happened. A gig full of young kids, just horrific!

[frazeHFC]

19 confirmed dead. Heartbreaking :(

[Hibernia&Alba]

19 confirmed dead. Heartbreaking :(

Just text a cousin in Manchester who lives only a couple of miles outside the city centre. Was it a pop concert?

[frazeHFC]

Just text a cousin in Manchester who lives only a couple of miles outside the city centre. Was it a pop concert?

Yeah Ariana Grande, who's audience will mostly be younger people. Horrific.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Yeah Ariana Grande, who's audience will mostly be younger people. Horrific.

I don't know who that is, but the news footage does show lots of youngsters running out. It's the latest soft target by the look of things: GMP are saying they think it's a terrorist attack.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Controlled explosion of a second suspected device heard on the news just there.

[silverhibee]

Now confirmed as a terrorist attack, controlled explosion has just taken place on a second device in the arena.

Reports of shots being fired at Oldham hospital.

[frazeHFC]

Now confirmed as a terrorist attack, controlled explosion has just taken place on a second device in the arena.

Reports of shots being fired at Oldham hospital.

Just read that the Oldham one is a hoax. Hopefully that's true but who in the right mind would make something like that up. :bitchy:

[silverhibee]

Just read that the Oldham one is a hoax. Hopefully that's true but who in the right mind would make something like that up. :bitchy:

Sick f***ers.

Now reports of a car being stopped by armed police and detaining a man.

[Hibee87]

Whats more worrying is there is no suggestion of suicide so means whoever is responsible is still out there

[silverhibee]

Whats more worrying is there is no suggestion of suicide so means whoever is responsible is still out there

American news reporting it was a suicide bomber.

[Hibernia&Alba]

American news reporting it was a suicide bomber.

All kinds of rumours and counter-rumours will be on the go at this early stage. I suppose that's a consequence of the social media age. Whatever the truth is, when it emerges, this is already one of the worst terrorist attacks in British history. It's hard to process the knowledge that so many people can be there one second and then gone the next.

[SRHibs]

This Reddit thread is probably the best place to get updates: https://www.reddit.com/live/yz4k8674h837

[Just Jimmy]

I'm down here. I work right beside the arena. This afternoon i spoke with a load of fellow Scots who were down for the gig. A couple of Hibbies too. One young lass was telling me she'd renewed her season ticket.

In shock tbh. Really close to home. Manchester has been great to me since i moved down, such an open and friendly city.

I hope everyone i spoke to today is ok.

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[Hibernia&Alba]

I'm down here. I work right beside the arena. This afternoon i spoke with a load of fellow Scots who were down for the gig. A couple of Hibbies too. One young lass was telling me she'd renewed her season ticket.

In shock tbh. Really close to home. Manchester has been great to me since i moved down, such an open and friendly city.

I hope everyone i spoke to today is ok.

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It's sobering, mate. Your work mightn't be open in the morning.

[Just Jimmy]

It's sobering, mate. Your work mightn't be open in the morning.
I doubt it. I'm not that concerned right now.

Sobering indeed.

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[Sir David Gray]

Yeah Ariana Grande, who's audience will mostly be younger people. Horrific.

Yep it's tragic whatever age the victims are but there's likely to have been a lot of children at this concert as she is very popular with youngsters having been an actress on children's TV before going into music.

[pontius pilate]

Absolutely horrific and appaling what has taken place in Manchester overnight. Thoughts and prayers to everybody involved. Reminds me so much of the way the ira done their bombing campaign the location and the secondary device. No matter who done it they are cowards.

[Sir David Gray]

22 deaths confirmed now and 59 injured. The police have just confirmed the attacker died at the scene and children have died. Sounds like a suicide bombing.

Just so sad thoughts and sympathies with everyone involved.

[Northernhibee]

Whoever did this is a cowardly, deplorable, lowest of the low ****. Targeting children. ****ing pathetic and I hope that those who were there won't change the way they go about their lives. Don't let them win.

Saddened and angry that people can go to a pop concert and not return home.

[Mr White]

Absolutely awful. Thoughts are with all those affected though it's hard to comprehend what that must be like. Horrific.

[DH1875]

Sickening. My wee girl has friends who were there and just hope that they are all alright. How anyone can attack an arena that's obviously going to be filled with kids in the name of any god or religion is beyond me.

[Just Jimmy]

As expected work is inside the police cordon. We got told to stay home until further notice. Town is locked down around that area with armed police everywhere.




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[JeMeSouviens]

Whoever did this is a cowardly, deplorable, lowest of the low ****. Targeting children. ****ing pathetic and I hope that those who were there won't change the way they go about their lives. Don't let them win.

Saddened and angry that people can go to a pop concert and not return home.

I get this argument but I've got tickets to see Radiohead at the Manchester Arena in July. We'll probably still go but be nervous and half-crapping it. Same as I always wonder when sitting on a plane waiting for takeoff if this is going to be one of the times some **** tries to blow it up.

[JeMeSouviens]

Suicide bomber confirmed by police:


Chief constable Ian Hopkins said: “We have been treating this as a terrorist incident and we believe that while the attack last night was conducted by one man, the priority is to establish whether he was acting alone or as part of a network.”

“The attacker, I can confirm, died at the arena. We believe the attacker was carrying an improvised explosive device, which he detonated, causing this atrocity.”

He blew himself up in the foyer as people were leaving. There probably would have been minimum security and a big crowd milling around. Security nightmare.

[Moulin Yarns]

I get this argument but I've got tickets to see Radiohead at the Manchester Arena in July. We'll probably still go but be nervous and half-crapping it. Same as I always wonder when sitting on a plane waiting for takeoff if this is going to be one of the times some **** tries to blow it up.

I was at a big concert in Dublin, in a 15,000 capacity arena. on the night of the Battaclan attack, we heard about it when we got back to the hotel and also wondered what would it have been like hat been where we had just been. But you can't let it stop you going to concerts or events or thy win.

[ekhibee]

Awful and tragic news from the Manchester Arena. I know it's not, as we speak, been confirmed that ISIL were involved, it could have been an isolated nutter. I've actually seen Ariana Grande interviewed on US tv before, she's quite outspoken about women's rights although not necessarily a feminist. We all know that in some extreme cultures, women's rights are very low in their list of priorities, so there's a possibility that some sick point was being made here, but it's really early days yet in the investigation. I can't imagine how the families of missing people at the gig must be feeling right now.

[Mr Grieves]

I can't comprehend how someone could do this. They've intentionally targeted children, absolutely sickening.

And making the situation even worse, you've got the usual bell ends, who have a lot more in common with terrorists than they'd like to admit, spreading their racist bull**** and hatred. Katie Hopkins was tweeting about 'a final solution' earlier.

[Betty Boop]

The Arndale Centre evacuated.

[G B Young]

Whoever did this is a cowardly, deplorable, lowest of the low ****. Targeting children. ****ing pathetic and I hope that those who were there won't change the way they go about their lives. Don't let them win.

Saddened and angry that people can go to a pop concert and not return home.

As you say, it's a terrible mix of sadness and anger, rage in fact, that such insanity is now embedded in our way of lives. And you have to term somebody capable of such an atrocity as insane.

What depresses me is that we are so weak in the face of this madness. The default mantra that we will continue to go about our daily lives and never let the terrorists win is, sadly, a hollow one. Of course we shouldn't barricade ourselves in our homes for ever more, but the fact is the terrorists DO win every time this sort of unspeakable act occurs and that for all our 'going about our daily lives' in defiance of terrorism all we are really doing is awaiting the next atrocity, wherever that may occur in the world. Worldwide publicity is the oxygen of terrorism and today will be seen as a great 'victory' for those of such a depraved mindset.

Yes, we should be thankful for those involved in the counter-terrorism work which has thwarted numerous attempts on the lives of innocent civilians, many of which we will probably never even know about, but in reality it must be impossible to legislate against all such murderous ambitions - in particular the seeming move towards lone wolf attacks.

Where next? Who knows, but for today all we can do is mourn the senseless loss of so many young lives and the reflect on the wider, devastating impact it will have on their families and friends.

Life is tough enough for many, but when we're at a stage where you have to worry about terrorist attacks on children at a pop concert you can't help but despair.

[Moulin Yarns]

BreakingMan arrested in connection with attack
Posted at 11:51 Breaking
A 23-year-old man has been arrested in connection with the Manchester bomb attack, Greater Manchester Police said.

[ekhibee]

As you say, it's a terrible mix of sadness and anger, rage in fact, that such insanity is now embedded in our way of lives. And you have to term somebody capable of such an atrocity as insane.

What depresses me is that we are so weak in the face of this madness. The default mantra that we will continue to go about our daily lives and never let the terrorists win is, sadly, a hollow one. Of course we shouldn't barricade ourselves in our homes for ever more, but the fact is the terrorists DO win every time this sort of unspeakable act occurs and that for all our 'going about our daily lives' in defiance of terrorism all we are really doing is awaiting the next atrocity, wherever that may occur in the world. Worldwide publicity is the oxygen of terrorism and today will be seen as a great 'victory' for those of such a depraved mindset.

Yes, we should be thankful for those involved in the counter-terrorism work which has thwarted numerous attempts on the lives of innocent civilians, many of which we will probably never even know about, but in reality it must be impossible to legislate against all such murderous ambitions - in particular the seeming move towards lone wolf attacks.

Where next? Who knows, but for today all we can do is mourn the senseless loss of so many young lives and the reflect on the wider, devastating impact it will have on their families and friends.

Life is tough enough for many, but when we're at a stage where you have to worry about terrorist attacks on children at a pop concert you can't help but despair.
Very true. The sad reality is that any major event where a large amount of people are congregated, old or young, is a potential forum for terrorists to promote their extreme views and/or carry out attrocities like this. Of course we should all remember that it is all to easy to blame a culture or religion for things like that, but there would have been plenty of muslim children and their families attending that concert too. The politicians are expected to make some sort of comment after something like this happens, but the majority of the public will know that anything that's said will provide little or no solace to the families of people that were killed or injured.

My worry is that as ISIL becomes more and more desperate after suffering heavy losses, more of these actions could very well be inevitable.

[JeMeSouviens]

As you say, it's a terrible mix of sadness and anger, rage in fact, that such insanity is now embedded in our way of lives. And you have to term somebody capable of such an atrocity as insane.

What depresses me is that we are so weak in the face of this madness. The default mantra that we will continue to go about our daily lives and never let the terrorists win is, sadly, a hollow one. Of course we shouldn't barricade ourselves in our homes for ever more, but the fact is the terrorists DO win every time this sort of unspeakable act occurs and that for all our 'going about our daily lives' in defiance of terrorism all we are really doing is awaiting the next atrocity, wherever that may occur in the world. Worldwide publicity is the oxygen of terrorism and today will be seen as a great 'victory' for those of such a depraved mindset.

Yes, we should be thankful for those involved in the counter-terrorism work which has thwarted numerous attempts on the lives of innocent civilians, many of which we will probably never even know about, but in reality it must be impossible to legislate against all such murderous ambitions - in particular the seeming move towards lone wolf attacks.

Where next? Who knows, but for today all we can do is mourn the senseless loss of so many young lives and the reflect on the wider, devastating impact it will have on their families and friends.

Life is tough enough for many, but when we're at a stage where you have to worry about terrorist attacks on children at a pop concert you can't help but despair.

Agree with this. If there are enough nutcases prepared to die in their attacks, then it is practically inevitable that some of them will get through. I just can't understand how people can be persuaded to do things like this. Man's capacity for inhumanity to man is a ****ing awful thing.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Agree with this. If there are enough nutcases prepared to die in their attacks, then it is practically inevitable that some of them will get through. I just can't understand how people can be persuaded to do things like this. Man's capacity for inhumanity to man is a ****ing awful thing.

I posted a thread last week asking if anyone had seen the c4 doc isis:history of violence. I would highly recommend it to people, it gave some fascinating insight and was a very good, if slightly uncomfortable watch.

They dont win from these attacks, because the attacks are not the end in itself. Despite some characterisation, radical islam has always had overt political aims, and the truth is thry are probably further from achieving them than ever.

They wont win, because they genuinely want, and expect the word to submit to their religion, which obviously wont ever happen. And they wont ever get their caliphate either.

They will be able to kill people here in the west, but terrorism, particuarly these soft attacks afe a symptom of weakness, not strenth.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Many still unaccounted for. That poor mother holding a picture of her daughter and asking for information.

[Mantis Toboggan]

I can't comprehend how someone could do this. They've intentionally targeted children, absolutely sickening.

And making the situation even worse, you've got the usual bell ends, who have a lot more in common with terrorists than they'd like to admit, spreading their racist bull**** and hatred. Katie Hopkins was tweeting about 'a final solution' earlier.

That tweet is a ****ing disgrace. Who tries to capitalise for their own benefit on something like this?

[Hibernia&Alba]

That tweet is a ****ing disgrace. Who tries to capitalise for their own benefit on something like this?

Some always will, sadly. Knee jerk reactions for opportunistic ends. Even dead children can provide a chance to mouth off ignorantly. No humanity, just calculated point scoring.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

That tweet is a ****ing disgrace. Who tries to capitalise for their own benefit on something like this?

People really need to just ignore her...

(Not a dig at you, i just find it frustrating when people share something to say how bad it is - thats what she wants, and its what keeps her in employment)

[Moulin Yarns]

That tweet is a ****ing disgrace. Who tries to capitalise for their own benefit on something like this?

This is disgusting

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-tren...alflow_twitter (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-40010376?ocid=socialflow_twitter)

Some people seem to get some kind of thrill out of people retweeting fake images of 'lost' relatives.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The identities of a few victims are starting to be revealed. A nineteen year old girl and an eight year old girl. This time yesterday they had their whole lives ahead of them and were looking forward to a pop concert. Gone in the blink of an eye.

[Sylar]

BBC reporting the attacker is 'British or British born'.

[Just Jimmy]

They've arrested a 23 year old and performed a controlled explosion around the corner from where I live. Chorlton is a nice area, welcoming and friendly. Has a village feel to it. People support local business etc.

Unbelievable really. I don't expect to be back at work maybe even tomorrow. I tried to do some work from home but my mind isn't really on it.

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[Navids Numpties]

8 year old confirmed dead.

[High-On-Hibs]

Nobody should be trying to politicize this incident. The division that this is stirring up between people with different political view points is the intended effect.

[JimBHibees]

8 year old confirmed dead.

Truly horrific.

[wpj]

Nobody should be trying to politicize this incident. The division that this is stirring up between people with different political view points is the intended effect.

Sadly I have seen several posts on FB credited to Britain First, Knights Templar etc. posted by people who I thought knew better! I think it is because these tw@ts adopt the "stand by Manchester" pictures and people don't check the source before they share the post.

[Mantis Toboggan]

People really need to just ignore her...

(Not a dig at you, i just find it frustrating when people share something to say how bad it is - thats what she wants, and its what keeps her in employment)

I know but she needs to be called out on it. How anyone with any sort of conscience could employ her I don't​ know. But luckily for her there are tons of conscience free people around so she continues on with her horrific schtick.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I know but she needs to be called out on it. How anyone with any sort of conscience could employ her I don't​ know. But luckily for her there are tons of conscience free people around so she continues on with her horrific schtick.

Being called is her aim though. Ignore her and she will go away.

[CropleyWasGod]

I know but she needs to be called out on it. How anyone with any sort of conscience could employ her I don't​ know. But luckily for her there are tons of conscience free people around so she continues on with her horrific schtick.

One word. Ratings.

[pontius pilate]

Sadly I have seen several posts on FB credited to Britain First, Knights Templar etc. posted by people who I thought knew better! I think it is because these tw@ts adopt the "stand by Manchester" pictures and people don't check the source before they share the post.

Not just by those you have mentioned either so far in my Facebook fees I have saw a celtic fan saying thier would be more bombings in Manchester untill Bamfors is there's. Also some idiot sayin the more the merrier as they are English and if it happened in Scotland it wouldnt have the same coverage. Words absolutely fail me at this time over there idiots children and young people families destroyed and devasted.

[cabbageandribs1875]

two young girls from isle of barra unaccounted for

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40011126

Laura MacIntyre, 15, and Eilidh MacLeod, 14, have not been seen since the attack on Monday night.


so sad

[Pretty Boy]

Not just by those you have mentioned either so far in my Facebook fees I have saw a celtic fan saying thier would be more bombings in Manchester untill Bamfors is there's. Also some idiot sayin the more the merrier as they are English and if it happened in Scotland it wouldnt have the same coverage. Words absolutely fail me at this time over there idiots children and young people familiar destroyed and devasted.

The extemities of social media are best avoided at times like this.

There are a lot of decent people doing good things who are far more worthy of attention.

[G B Young]

Suspect named by police:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40020168

With pictures of the young victims starting to appear it just gets all the more upsetting.

[Slavers]

The extemities of social media are best avoided at times like this.

There are a lot of decent people doing good things who are far more worthy of attention.

Got to agree with you. Why give the idiots airtime, they are not worth commenting on.

[Bishop Hibee]

All very grim. It could easily been my own boys at a club or concert. Thoughts and prayers with the victims and their families. Dark days but hope will triumph over hate.

[lucky]

So sad and evil that anyone would target children and young people.

[G B Young]

I can't comprehend how someone could do this. They've intentionally targeted children, absolutely sickening.

And making the situation even worse, you've got the usual bell ends, who have a lot more in common with terrorists than they'd like to admit, spreading their racist bull**** and hatred. Katie Hopkins was tweeting about 'a final solution' earlier.

I confess I wasn't actually sure who Katie Hopkins was until I checked her out earlier. Probably because I don't usually read the Daily Mail. But I now recall her as an annoying contestant on The Apprentice a good few years back.

However, I don't mind admitting her newspaper column today chimes in many ways with the anger and sense of futility I alluded to earlier about the default response of 'we'll carry on as normal and show the terrorists they can't win'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4534016/Katie-Hopkins-Manchester-Arena-terrorist-attack.html

[Aldo]

Cowardice to an all time low last nite at the MEN! No stone left unturned and anyone else involved in this brought to the most sternest of justice. I know what my justice would be but this is for another time and place! All I will say is fitting punishment for a heinous crime!

[McD]

Nobody should be trying to politicize this incident. The division that this is stirring up between people with different political view points is the intended effect.


:agree:

[NYHibby]

The Arndale Centre evacuated.

Not to make a joke out of this, but my Chinese flatmate, who doesn't speak great english, was in the shopping centre bathroom pooping when the evacuation started. Since he didn't know what was going on, he stayed in the stall to finish his business. But then a security guard came into the bathroom and also almost banged down the door trying to get my flatmate out of the bathroom. He couldn't finish wiping.

[Sir David Gray]

Some of the eyewitness accounts of what happened last night are truly heartbreaking. I was listening to Five Live this morning on my way to work and the account of what one woman said she witnessed was horrific. Nicky Campbell was struggling to compose himself at one point.

For someone to target beautiful, innocent young children going to a concert to watch their favourite popstar is just beyond comprehension. I hope and pray that those who are injured and those who are traumatised by what they experienced last night can somehow come to terms with what's happened.

[Aldo]

Some of the eyewitness accounts of what happened last night are truly heartbreaking. I was listening to Five Live this morning on my way to work and the account of what one woman said she witnessed was horrific. Nicky Campbell was struggling to compose himself at one point. For someone to target beautiful, innocent young children going to a concert to watch their favourite popstar is just beyond comprehension. I hope and pray that those who are injured and those who are traumatised by what they experienced last night can somehow come to terms with what's happened.

Heard that too.

The guy on this afternoon ensured his son was safe and ran towards the foyer and grabbed t shirts etc and helped where he could. He said he was first aid trained but nothing could have ever prepared himself for what he witnessed!

Unfortunately this is gong to live with a good number of people for a long long time!!

[JeMeSouviens]

I confess I wasn't actually sure who Katie Hopkins was until I checked her out earlier. Probably because I don't usually read the Daily Mail. But I now recall her as an annoying contestant on The Apprentice a good few years back.

However, I don't mind admitting her newspaper column today chimes in many ways with the anger and sense of futility I alluded to earlier about the default response of 'we'll carry on as normal and show the terrorists they can't win'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4534016/Katie-Hopkins-Manchester-Arena-terrorist-attack.html

Her tweet called for a "final solution". She is not stupid enough to be unaware of the connotations.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

two young girls from isle of barra unaccounted for

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40011126

Laura MacIntyre, 15, and Eilidh MacLeod, 14, have not been seen since the attack on Monday night.


so sad

One of them just confirmed as alive and in hospital.

[Sir David Gray]

One of them just confirmed as alive and in hospital.

That's encouraging news although she apparently has very serious injuries, which are apparently burns.

No news on her friend unfortunately.

[G B Young]

Her tweet called for a "final solution". She is not stupid enough to be unaware of the connotations.

Yes. I've seen that tweet now. Inflammatory, no question.

My point, though, was in relation to her opinion piece which does, I think, raise some valid questions. In the wake of each atrocity, no matter where it takes place, how does it make us 'stronger' to say 'it's business as usual'? How, really, does this 'deliver a message that terrorism will never win'? What comfort, if any, do these soundbites bring to the innocent victims and the hundreds of family members and friends whose lives are now changed for ever?

As far as I can see, we are powerless as civilians to stand up to terrorism of the sort witnessed last night. We are rightly horrified and deeply saddened, but the sad truth is that unless the security forces are able to clamp down on each and every suicide bomber or maniac behind a wheel then all we're really doing is hoping against hope that there won't be another such incident.

How many such incidents would it take before most parents decided it simply isn't worth the risk to let their kids go to a concert? One more? Two more? Personally even one such incident is enough to give me pause for thought when it comes to my own kids going to such an event. By that token, the line between being able to carry on 'as usual' and no longer being able to feel confident about going about your daily life is a frighteningly fine one and with each passing atrocity it seems to me we become weaker, not stronger.

I mean no disrespect by raising these questions and I offer no better solution than those who continue to advocate a 'shoulder to shoulder' response. But I'm angry today. Exceptionally angry and desperately sad at what happened in Manchester. It plumbed new depths and I fear what's yet to come.

[Sir David Gray]

The UK threat level is being raised to critical which is the highest level available meaning that a further terrorist attack is considered to be imminent.

I would suspect that they must have some solid intelligence to go on if they're raising the level for an attack.

[Mon Dieu4]

The UK threat level is being raised to critical which is the highest level available meaning that a further terrorist attack is considered to be imminent.

I would suspect that they must have some solid intelligence to go on if they're raising the level for an attack.


I'd say they are just being careful, they can't say for sure so are making the right decision

[Alex Trager]

The UK threat level is being raised to critical which is the highest level available meaning that a further terrorist attack is considered to be imminent.

I would suspect that they must have some solid intelligence to go on if they're raising the level for an attack.

It does nothing to instil confidence in the public though that's for sure.

She said it's not only likely, it may be imminent.

Scary stuff

[Sir David Gray]

I'd say they are just being careful, they can't say for sure so are making the right decision

I hope so. It is the first time that the threat level's been raised to critical for almost 10 years since the Glasgow airport attack so they've obviously not taken the decision lightly. On that occasion it was only raised to that level for 4 days before being downgraded again to severe.

To be honest with you, if some lunatic wants to strap explosives to himself and go into a crowded place and blow himself up killing and maiming many others then there's not an awful lot that the security forces can do to defend us against such a threat.

[.Sean.]

I hope so. It is the first time that the threat level's been raised to critical for almost 10 years since the Glasgow airport attack so they've obviously not taken the decision lightly. On that occasion it was only raised to that level for 4 days before being downgraded again to severe.

To be honest with you, if some lunatic wants to strap explosives to himself and go into a crowded place and blow himself up killing and maiming many others then there's not an awful lot that the security forces can do to defend us against such a threat.
This is what I find the most frightening thing.

How the **** do you police against a brainwashed lunatic who makes a bomb in their kitchen and thinks it's acceptable to put it in a backpack and walk into a crowd. You can't.

[Mon Dieu4]

I hope so. It is the first time that the threat level's been raised to critical for almost 10 years since the Glasgow airport attack so they've obviously not taken the decision lightly. On that occasion it was only raised to that level for 4 days before being downgraded again to severe.

To be honest with you, if some lunatic wants to strap explosives to himself and go into a crowded place and blow himself up killing and maiming many others then there's not an awful lot that the security forces can do to defend us against such a threat.

Correct, if someone is going to do it and doesn't tell anyone about it then you are only going to stop it with a big slice of luck, if it's true that he's only just back from Libya then you need to ask what the security forces have been up to, anyone who has been away to countries like Libya, Syria etc should be subject to extra checks once they are back

[Hibernia&Alba]

This is what I find the most frightening thing.

How the **** do you police against a brainwashed lunatic who makes a bomb in their kitchen and thinks it's acceptable to put it in a backpack and walk into a crowd. You can't.

Aye, we can't have guaranteed safety in a free society; it isn't possible. There is going to be some level of risk, meaning that, sadly, innocent people are going to find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time. Measures can be taken to reduce risk as much as possible, but the risk can't be eliminated.

[Scouse Hibee]

The UK threat level is being raised to critical which is the highest level available meaning that a further terrorist attack is considered to be imminent.

I would suspect that they must have some solid intelligence to go on if they're raising the level for an attack.

Not such a bad thing as it also means every major organisation outside the normal government ones will also raise their own security levels in response. Can make a massive difference in disruption to anything being planned.

[Sir David Gray]

This is what I find the most frightening thing.

How the **** do you police against a brainwashed lunatic who makes a bomb in their kitchen and thinks it's acceptable to put it in a backpack and walk into a crowd. You can't.


Correct, if someone is going to do it and doesn't tell anyone about it then you are only going to stop it with a big slice of luck, if it's true that he's only just back from Libya then you need to ask what the security forces have been up to, anyone who has been away to countries like Libya, Syria etc should be subject to extra checks once they are back

Exactly, I agree with both posts.

I was absolutely no fan of the IRA and hate what they did to innocent people but at least on many occasions they left clues about their plans and would often make anonymous phone calls to police to warn them of an attack. At least we could try to guard against that sort of enemy and they were eventually prepared to discuss things diplomatically.

However ISIS and al-Qaeda before them have taken terrorism to a completely new level of depravity by involving the use of suicide bombers. If you're someone who is prepared to die for your "cause" whilst taking out many innocent civilians then there's very little you can do to stop that, if that person is prepared to act alone or within a tight knit group.

Totally agree about anyone found to have visited countries like Libya and Syria etc. If you've been to any country like that any time recently then you should be prepared to be quizzed on the reasons for that journey when you return back to the UK. I don't know many people that have gone on an 18-30 holiday to Tripoli or Damascus in the past few years.

[Scouse Hibee]

Exactly, I agree with both posts.

I was absolutely no fan of the IRA and hate what they did to innocent people but at least on many occasions they left clues about their plans and would often make anonymous phone calls to police to warn them of an attack. At least we could try to guard against that sort of enemy and they were eventually prepared to discuss things diplomatically.

However ISIS and al-Qaeda before them have taken terrorism to a completely new level of depravity by involving the use of suicide bombers. If you're someone who is prepared to die for your "cause" whilst taking out many innocent civilians then there's very little you can do to stop that, if that person is prepared to act alone or within a tight knit group.

Totally agree about anyone found to have visited countries like Libya and Syria etc. If you've been to any country like that any time recently then you should be prepared to be quizzed on the reasons for that journey when you return back to the UK. I don't know many people that have gone on an 18-30 holiday to Tripoli or Damascus in the past few years.

Yes agreed, the only chance is intelligence. It's a war based on intelligence gathering which is sometimes the only hope of intercepting these people. Literally hundreds are thwarted yet just one can cause so much carnage it's frightening.

[silverhibee]

I'd say they are just being careful, they can't say for sure so are making the right decision

I really hope so, but why not do this first thing this morning if the Government were being careful, the worry is that it has happened after a few raids on houses and arrests which may have gave enough thought that other people are involved in this incident and now on the run with possibly suicide vests, soldiers being deployed on the streets of the UK tonight might suggest that they are acting on a live situation where the threat of another attack is imminent.

Sad times.

[frazeHFC]

Brother just told me he has read that the mother of the 8 year old girl killed is seriously ill in hospital and does not yet know that her daughter has died. Truly heartbreaking.

[Sir David Gray]

Brother just told me he has read that the mother of the 8 year old girl killed is seriously ill in hospital and does not yet know that her daughter has died. Truly heartbreaking.

There are literally no words to describe how sad that is. I can't imagine knowing how she will feel if she ever wakes up and recovers from her injuries and is then told that her daughter didn't make it.

I don't know how you would even begin to process that information in your mind, never mind come to terms with it.

[Hibrandenburg]

Her tweet called for a "final solution". She is not stupid enough to be unaware of the connotations.

In these tragic hours I've seen the best and worst in humans. I've seen people open their houses to complete strangers and offer them shelter and comfort, I've seen people striving to help their fellow humans and go beyond exhaustion to do so.

I've also seen the worst, I've seen fake profiles on Facebook using the atrocity for political haymaking. One particular one claiming to be a SNP supporter reveling in the fact that it was English kids getting what they deserve for being English. Utterly utterly soul destroying to see how low people can stoop. I hope those perpetrating such odious ***** get a knock on the door in the wee wee hours and get named and shamed.

Hopefully the name of this murderous ******* will soon be forgotten and those who went out their way to help and comfort will be rewarded and made the real story and heirs to the legacy of yesterday.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Exactly, I agree with both posts.

I was absolutely no fan of the IRA and hate what they did to innocent people but at least on many occasions they left clues about their plans and would often make anonymous phone calls to police to warn them of an attack. At least we could try to guard against that sort of enemy and they were eventually prepared to discuss things diplomatically.

However ISIS and al-Qaeda before them have taken terrorism to a completely new level of depravity by involving the use of suicide bombers. If you're someone who is prepared to die for your "cause" whilst taking out many innocent civilians then there's very little you can do to stop that, if that person is prepared to act alone or within a tight knit group.

Totally agree about anyone found to have visited countries like Libya and Syria etc. If you've been to any country like that any time recently then you should be prepared to be quizzed on the reasons for that journey when you return back to the UK. I don't know many people that have gone on an 18-30 holiday to Tripoli or Damascus in the past few years.

Frpm what i read, the security svces dont havr the resources to monitor all of the 500 people they are most worried about. It must be incredibly resource intensive to surveil someone.

Personally, anyone coming back from syria who cant accou t for why they were there should denied re-entry, or interned for a set period.

Or we shpuld be tracking them in syria / libya and letting the drone teams take care of them.

Unfortunately there are no easy answers, it will be the price we pay for living in a society they despise. And there is no way to stop it.

Also read conflicting reports in guardian witj one community elder saying he was shocked, but the imam at their mosque saying their father had reacted with disgust at a sermon of tolerance he had preached at mosque.

[Aldo]

Exactly, I agree with both posts.

I was absolutely no fan of the IRA and hate what they did to innocent people but at least on many occasions they left clues about their plans and would often make anonymous phone calls to police to warn them of an attack. At least we could try to guard against that sort of enemy and they were eventually prepared to discuss things diplomatically.

However ISIS and al-Qaeda before them have taken terrorism to a completely new level of depravity by involving the use of suicide bombers. If you're someone who is prepared to die for your "cause" whilst taking out many innocent civilians then there's very little you can do to stop that, if that person is prepared to act alone or within a tight knit group.

Totally agree about anyone found to have visited countries like Libya and Syria etc. If you've been to any country like that any time recently then you should be prepared to be quizzed on the reasons for that journey when you return back to the UK. I don't know many people that have gone on an 18-30 holiday to Tripoli or Damascus in the past few years.

Your last paragraph is spot on and I mentioned this at work yesterday. One person mentioned it was a 'breach of their civil liberties'. I admit at this point I burst out laughing as I couldn't believe what I had heard!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pretty Boy]

You know what really gets on my nerves after attacks like this happen?

The inevitable ****wit who takes to social media to post along the lines of 'everyone is so worried about Manchester, what about Yemen and Syria?'. Always posted with a certain smugness that implies they are the only person who has had such a thought. Just **** off. No one should think you are oh so caring and informed; you're a bit of a dick who is using death to try and score petty political points. Is it really that hard to accept that people can be moved/worried/angered etc by events elsewhere but when they happen that bit closer to home in a setting most of us recognise they hit home just that little bit harder.

It's the 'political' equivalent of a hipster. 'Oh everyone is eating avocado now but I'm totally into eating dead rats mixed with my own piss these days'. If everyone was posting about Syria, Yemen, Iraq and so on then these clowns would be telling us we should 'actually be concentrating on the little known civil war in the autonomous Outer *****lian Republic of Wherever'.

[ronaldo7]

In these tragic hours I've seen the best and worst in humans. I've seen people open their houses to complete strangers and offer them shelter and comfort, I've seen people striving to help their fellow humans and go beyond exhaustion to do so.

I've also seen the worst, I've seen fake profiles on Facebook using the atrocity for political haymaking. One particular one claiming to be a SNP supporter reveling in the fact that it was English kids getting what they deserve for being English. Utterly utterly soul destroying to see how low people can stoop. I hope those perpetrating such odious ***** get a knock on the door in the wee wee hours and get named and shamed.

Hopefully the name of this murderous ******* will soon be forgotten and those who went out their way to help and comfort will be rewarded and made the real story and heirs to the legacy of yesterday.

The people opening their houses, hotels opening their doors to groups of kids, and taxi firms offering to get people home are the many good things that come out of this atrocious and heinous act.

My heart goes out to those affected, and words cannot describe how they must be feeling.

[ronaldo7]

I'd say they are just being careful, they can't say for sure so are making the right decision

They must think he wasn't working alone. I just hope we can get to the core of the cell/cells he was working with, if that is indeed the case.

I wouldn't want it to become the norm for our troops to be on our streets. Brussels have had troops on the streets for over a year now.

[Hibrandenburg]

They must think he wasn't working alone. I just hope we can get to the core of the cell/cells he was working with, if that is indeed the case.

I wouldn't want it to become the norm for our troops to be on our streets. Brussels have had troops on the streets for over a year now.

Not sure this conflict can be won on the streets. The battleground is in cyberspace and far flung rogue states. If we bring the war to our streets then we've given them exactly that what they seek.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

They must think he wasn't working alone. I just hope we can get to the core of the cell/cells he was working with, if that is indeed the case.

I wouldn't want it to become the norm for our troops to be on our streets. Brussels have had troops on the streets for over a year now.

Yeah, although i believe it is just to free the police up fromguarding senstive sites. Have to say i dont have a problem with it, we dont have enough firearms police so it makes sense.

I think they have been doing it in Brussels a while, i remembet seeing some heavily tooled up soldiers at train stations a couple of years back, but that was near the European Parliament so maybe that wasnt typical.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Not sure this conflict can be won on the streets. The battleground is in cyberspace and far flung rogue states. If we bring the war to our streets then we've given them exactly that what they seek.

I agree to an extent, and i hesitate to use the word war - its not a war as such.

But the problem is on our streets, and if having the military around helps, i dont have a problem with it, as an emergency measure.

[frazeHFC]

You know what really gets on my nerves after attacks like this happen?

The inevitable ****wit who takes to social media to post along the lines of 'everyone is so worried about Manchester, what about Yemen and Syria?'. Always posted with a certain smugness that implies they are the only person who has had such a thought. Just **** off. No one should think you are oh so caring and informed; you're a bit of a dick who is using death to try and score petty political points. Is it really that hard to accept that people can be moved/worried/angered etc by events elsewhere but when they happen that bit closer to home in a setting most of us recognise they hit home just that little bit harder.

It's the 'political' equivalent of a hipster. 'Oh everyone is eating avocado now but I'm totally into eating dead rats mixed with my own piss these days'. If everyone was posting about Syria, Yemen, Iraq and so on then these clowns would be telling us we should 'actually be concentrating on the little known civil war in the autonomous Outer *****lian Republic of Wherever'.

Spot on, after attacks like this I tend to stay away from social media as posts like the ones you've mentioned drive me mad!

[Sir David Gray]

Yes agreed, the only chance is intelligence. It's a war based on intelligence gathering which is sometimes the only hope of intercepting these people. Literally hundreds are thwarted yet just one can cause so much carnage it's frightening.

That reminds me of the phrase that was always trotted out by the IRA - "We only need to be lucky once."

The security forces do a brilliant job in keeping us safe but they can only do so much and it will be very easy for just one of these people to slip under the radar and the consequences could be catastrophic.

[JeMeSouviens]

Yes. I've seen that tweet now. Inflammatory, no question.

My point, though, was in relation to her opinion piece which does, I think, raise some valid questions. In the wake of each atrocity, no matter where it takes place, how does it make us 'stronger' to say 'it's business as usual'? How, really, does this 'deliver a message that terrorism will never win'? What comfort, if any, do these soundbites bring to the innocent victims and the hundreds of family members and friends whose lives are now changed for ever?

As far as I can see, we are powerless as civilians to stand up to terrorism of the sort witnessed last night. We are rightly horrified and deeply saddened, but the sad truth is that unless the security forces are able to clamp down on each and every suicide bomber or maniac behind a wheel then all we're really doing is hoping against hope that there won't be another such incident.

How many such incidents would it take before most parents decided it simply isn't worth the risk to let their kids go to a concert? One more? Two more? Personally even one such incident is enough to give me pause for thought when it comes to my own kids going to such an event. By that token, the line between being able to carry on 'as usual' and no longer being able to feel confident about going about your daily life is a frighteningly fine one and with each passing atrocity it seems to me we become weaker, not stronger.

I mean no disrespect by raising these questions and I offer no better solution than those who continue to advocate a 'shoulder to shoulder' response. But I'm angry today. Exceptionally angry and desperately sad at what happened in Manchester. It plumbed new depths and I fear what's yet to come.

It's certainly a more subtle piece than the tweet. But it's still full of inflammatory language. "Eunuch politicians", this country is "disgusting", etc. etc. It seeks to build a lynch mob mentality that "something must be done", that idiots like her who preach intolerance were "right all along". The Daily Mail wants a reaction because they are reactionary ********s. Their "final solution" involves a lot less brown people.

[steakbake]

As Home Secretary, May was warned that cuts to the police will affect the country's ability to cope with terror attacks. She said they were crying wolf. We're now looking at the army taking to the streets to free up police resources. Symbolic, probably popular with a "strong and stable" mentality but an admission of failure.

We've had military adventures in Syria, Libya and Iraq - all on the premise of keeping our streets safe from terrorism. Having suffered no attacks from Islamist inspired attackers which were largely contained to increasingly losing causes in East Africa, Afghanistan and pockets of the Middle East, we are now under constant watch to see where the next is coming from. 9/11 could and should have been their last ditch, desperate attempt to seize the agenda. But the response created new space for jihadis to go, with new scores to settle reinvigorated. Now it's not just Europe, but areas of North and West Africa, Asia, Australia - places that have never really had to contend with any serious and sustained threat from radicalised militants on this scale at any time in the past.

We sell arms to the Saudis who we know as the single largest state sponsor of Wahhabism which spreads its chaos throughout the Islamic world and infects the minds of the vulnerable, impressionable and isolated loners across the world looking for a cause. When they do, we wonder how people became so radicalised and sociopathic arguably even mentally ill, that they simply don't care about themselves or others. We export arms to Saudi, while they export explosive ideas and funding to 'radical' preachers throughout the world.

As Home Secretary, Theresa May announced the Prevent strategy. A singularly ineffective policy which was meant to enable, encourage and even compel people to report radicalised behaviour. Derided by experts, unworkable on a practical and sometimes even legal level, it's just a gimmick.

On immigration - to which I would say this particular incident is only tangentially related given the lad was British albeit born to Libyan refugee parents, it's one thing to have a tough immigration policy. It's unrealistic and simplistic to believe that in the modern world you can have a zero immigration policy, but the backdrop is that there has been a huge failure in integration policy. As Home Secretary, May wanted there to be a "hostile environment" for immigrants. She still does. A blunt and unsophisticated system that creates outsiders, dehumanises and keeps people as outsiders with no reward and no remission for those who do as much as they can to include themselves.

There's no follow up to see if people are here for the reasons they said. The system - and I know it well - has no resource to provide checkpoints to objectively and fairly assess what someone does with their life here apart from the expiry date of a visa. There's a multiple choice English language exam and a multiple choice 'life in the UK' test and a pledge of loyalty to an assumed identity and flag but there's no plan. The whole thing needs rethought in a massive way. There are huge cost-recovery based application fees, but Border Force has been cut by 5,000, local expertise on-shored to the UK to save money and swathes of the immigration service on temp contracts. We are pretty much unique in the world for not having any exit checks: without these, we don't know who is here, who has left, who is returning and from where and for why.

We rely on partial IPC data and even then, that is only glanced at for statistical purposes and patterns. When the Coalition Gov mooted these (to the credit of the LibDems), one meeting I was at in London discussed the fact that the physical space required for exit checks would have a negative effect on an airport's retail and commercial activity.

On religious organisations: tax breaks, charitable status but who is checking that they are making a socially cohesive contribution across the board? Who funds them? Why? Which politician has the spine to stand up to baying anti-immigration politics to point out that this isn't about being a soft touch or 'social justice warriors' but that social cohesion and integration policy it is about having a holistic plan.

It's all small state, austerity-fixated, short termist, hardline rhetoric with no follow through. A massive failure to have a plan for the realities of globalisation sometimes even to deny its existence altogether. A lack of courage to take responsibility for the country in anything more than a superficial and simplistic way.

In the end, these things will continue to play out. The public will demand all kinds of retribution while many of the underlying aspects go unresolved. Too complex to explain in a soundbite, too costly to implement in austerity and too long term a project to leave in the fleeting hands of career politicians.

As they say, war is politics by other means, but war is a failure of politics. Innocent people will continue to be killed by isolated sociopaths, while governments rearrange the deck chairs to limit the damage and seize the narrative from the hurt it leaves behind.

[JeMeSouviens]

Frpm what i read, the security svces dont havr the resources to monitor all of the 500 people they are most worried about. It must be incredibly resource intensive to surveil someone.

Personally, anyone coming back from syria who cant accou t for why they were there should denied re-entry, or interned for a set period.

Or we shpuld be tracking them in syria / libya and letting the drone teams take care of them.

Unfortunately there are no easy answers, it will be the price we pay for living in a society they despise. And there is no way to stop it.

Also read conflicting reports in guardian witj one community elder saying he was shocked, but the imam at their mosque saying their father had reacted with disgust at a sermon of tolerance he had preached at mosque.

The problem with a security crackdown response is that these people are being attracted from a starting point of being disaffected members of our own society, not external actors from somewhere else. In that way, they're similar to the IRA of the 70s and 80s. A heavy handed clumsiness to deliver justice will inevitably also cause genuine injustice. Internment, curfews, jury-free courts, military patrols and house searches. All these things failed big time in Ireland. Let's not make all the same mistakes again.

Sometimes you just have to accept that you're already doing all the right things. Maybe you need to devote more resource to them but because one tragedy has happened it's not the time for a knee jerk that will only make everything worse.

[Betty Boop]

http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/05/23/manchester-attacks-what-price-hypocrisy/

[ekhibee]

I have seen and heard Katie Hopkins' right-wing rantings and racist comments before, and tragic events like this are just the kind of thing leaches like her exploit. Nobody should pay any attention to her, or give her the public attention that she constantly craves.

[Pretty Boy]

http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/05/23/manchester-attacks-what-price-hypocrisy/

The continued blind eye being turned to the Saudis will ensure such attacks continue, I don't think there is any doubt about that. It's a sick joke when you see them paraded as our 'strategic ally'.

[CropleyWasGod]

The continued blind eye being turned to the Saudis will ensure such attacks continue, I don't think there is any doubt about that. It's a sick joke when you see them paraded as our 'strategic ally'.

... and even more so when you consider than Trump has just presented the Pope with a collection of Martin Luther King's writings. :rolleyes:

[steakbake]

Could have been worse - he could have presented the complete works of Martin Luther.

[CropleyWasGod]

Could have been worse - he could have presented the complete works of Martin Luther.

:not worth

On a very dark thread, that has lightened the mood. :greengrin

[Dinkydoo]

http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/05/23/manchester-attacks-what-price-hypocrisy/
Yep, it's actually quite infuriating to read the same old bull**** rhetoric about "standing together", "we love <insert european city here>", "Don't change, don't let them win" .... after each attack knowing that if our foreign policy doesn't change then these atrocities will continue to happen.

The final paragraph from the quoted article"



It bears repeating: you cannot continue to invade, occupy, and subvert Muslim and Arab countries and not expect consequences. And when those consequences amount to the slaughter and maiming of your own citizens, the same tired and shallow platitudes we are ritually regaled with by politicians and leaders intent on bolstering their anti-terrorism and security credentials achieve little except induce nausea.


Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[G B Young]

As Home Secretary, Theresa May announced the Prevent strategy. A singularly ineffective policy which was meant to enable, encourage and even compel people to report radicalised behaviour. Derided by experts, unworkable on a practical and sometimes even legal level, it's just a gimmick.

On immigration - to which I would say this particular incident is only tangentially related given the lad was British albeit born to Libyan refugee parents, it's one thing to have a tough immigration policy. It's unrealistic and simplistic to believe that in the modern world you can have a zero immigration policy, but the backdrop is that there has been a huge failure in integration policy. As Home Secretary, May wanted there to be a "hostile environment" for immigrants. She still does. A blunt and unsophisticated system that creates outsiders, dehumanises and keeps people as outsiders with no reward and no remission for those who do as much as they can to include themselves.

There's no follow up to see if people are here for the reasons they said. The system - and I know it well - has no resource to provide checkpoints to objectively and fairly assess what someone does with their life here apart from the expiry date of a visa. There's a multiple choice English language exam and a multiple choice 'life in the UK' test and a pledge of loyalty to an assumed identity and flag but there's no plan. The whole thing needs rethought in a massive way. There are huge cost-recovery based application fees, but Border Force has been cut by 5,000, local expertise on-shored to the UK to save money and swathes of the immigration service on temp contracts. We are pretty much unique in the world for not having any exit checks: without these, we don't know who is here, who has left, who is returning and from where and for why.

We rely on partial IPC data and even then, that is only glanced at for statistical purposes and patterns. When the Coalition Gov mooted these (to the credit of the LibDems), one meeting I was at in London discussed the fact that the physical space required for exit checks would have a negative effect on an airport's retail and commercial activity.



Some interesting points, which by the sounds of it are made with the benefit of a fair degree of inside knowledge?

I'm a little confused by the origins of the Prevent scheme, which this BBC article seems to imply had its origins in the 7/7 London bombings of 2005, long before Theresa May was Home Secretary?:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38440939

Timelines aside, I see Amber Rudd has today confirmed that the scheme is in the process of being stepped up. Out of interest, do you know how involved Muslim bodies (eg Muslim Council of Britain) are involved in its implementation and is this an area where improvements could be made? eg do they feel sidelined in the process and see it as an 'us' and 'them' situation? Is there a better way of showing that both the government and Muslim bodies share a joint commitment to tackling extremism?

As for the immigration system, from what you say it does indeed sound as though a massive overhaul is needed. I think what baffles a lot of people in the wake of each passing atrocity is that so often it is subsequently announced that the perpetrator was 'known' to the authorities. Abedi had returned from Libya just a few days ago. On the surface, being 'known' to the authorities and recently returning from Libya would strike many as sufficient reason to at least keep closer checks on him. Or is it not that simple? When you see quotes like this (again on the BBC) you can't help but wonder why wasn't this guy picked up earlier?

"Mohammed Saeed El-Saeiti, the imam at the Didsbury Mosque, remembers Abedi as an dangerous extremist. "Salman showed me the face of hate after my speech on Isis [an acronym for the Islamic State group]," said the imam. "He used to show me the face of hate and I could tell this person does not like me. It's not a surprise to me."

Sorry, a lot of questions there which are probably just too complicated to provide simple answers to!

[marinello59]

They must think he wasn't working alone. I just hope we can get to the core of the cell/cells he was working with, if that is indeed the case.

I wouldn't want it to become the norm for our troops to be on our streets. Brussels have had troops on the streets for over a year now.

I'm not comfortable with having armed troops on the streets at all. Hopefully it is a very short term thing whilst they organise police resources.

[Scouse Hibee]

I'm not comfortable with having armed troops on the streets at all. Hopefully it is a very short term thing whilst they organise police resources.


There are currently no plans to have armed troops on the streets or assisting the Police in Scotland.

[EH6 Hibby]

There are currently no plans to have armed troops on the streets or assisting the Police in Scotland.

Not exactly on the streets, but there are armed police at Waverley Station and the Parliament today.

[Scouse Hibee]

Not exactly on the streets, but there are armed police at Waverley Station and the Parliament today.


Armed Police yes but not troops, armed Police have been stationed at the parliament for months I see them every day. I also regularly see armed Police at Waverley and the airport. No doubt numbers have increased after yesterday though, sad times indeed.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The problem with a security crackdown response is that these people are being attracted from a starting point of being disaffected members of our own society, not external actors from somewhere else. In that way, they're similar to the IRA of the 70s and 80s. A heavy handed clumsiness to deliver justice will inevitably also cause genuine injustice. Internment, curfews, jury-free courts, military patrols and house searches. All these things failed big time in Ireland. Let's not make all the same mistakes again.

Sometimes you just have to accept that you're already doing all the right things. Maybe you need to devote more resource to them but because one tragedy has happened it's not the time for a knee jerk that will only make everything worse.

I agree to an extent, and the policy of criminalisatiob worked very well in ireland. But underpinning all of that was, in effect a covert war, that may or may not habe involved collusion with death sqauds, shoot on sight policies and the SAS. We just did it all out of the public view. That option isnt really available to us.

Also we were negotiating with them, which again ismt an option here.

I agree there shouldnt be any reflex reactions, but i think using military in this way as a short term measure is ok.

Long term, i agree with you that it is juat the price we pay for having a society that offends backwards religious idiots.

I for one am proud of that.

[cabbageandribs1875]

the father of abedi says his son is innocent and has confirmed police have arrested another son, sky news

[heretoday]

Armed Police yes but not troops, armed Police have been stationed at the parliament for months I see them every day. I also regularly see armed Police at Waverley and the airport. No doubt numbers have increased after yesterday though, sad times indeed.

Armed police don't make me feel any safer.

[Colr]

the father of abedi says his son is innocent and has confirmed police have arrested another son, sky news

His son was an Arriane Grande fan who was at the gig? Or a taxi driver, perhaps?

[Just Jimmy]

I'm back at work. Had to get the tram to 2 stops down from my regular stop and walk up as Victoria is still shut but it's fine. There's 2 armed police basically at the front door. Town feels strange but not unsafe considering.

More names coming out sadly.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[cabbageandribs1875]

One of them just confirmed as alive and in hospital.


had a quick sketch at the BBC page which was just updated 20 mins ago and oddly the other girl is still unaccounted for, i can only imagine what her family and friends are going through emotionally waiting for news, any news

[cabbageandribs1875]

His son was an Arriane Grande fan who was at the gig? Or a taxi driver, perhaps?


no idea mate, it was that ticker tape thing on sky news, i'm thinking he's in denial that the piece of filth he helped spawn is a murderous ****bag, i'l apologise to him if i'm wrong

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

had a quick sketch at the BBC page which was just updated 20 mins ago and oddly the other girl is still unaccounted for, i can only imagine what her family and friends are going through emotionally waiting for news, any news

Doesnt bare thinking about

[Dinkydoo]

Long term, i agree with you that it is juat the price we pay for having a society that offends backwards religious idiots.

I for one am proud of that.

You're romanticising a bit too much here.

I highly doubt that giving rights to women and gay people matter as much to these martyrs as our foreign policy does.

We should be doing more to avoid dicking around in that part of the world in future. We can't stop every attack from being successful, but we can control the business we conduct in other parts of the world.

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[Hibernia&Alba]

As Home Secretary, May was warned that cuts to the police will affect the country's ability to cope with terror attacks. She said they were crying wolf. We're now looking at the army taking to the streets to free up police resources. Symbolic, probably popular with a "strong and stable" mentality but an admission of failure.

We've had military adventures in Syria, Libya and Iraq - all on the premise of keeping our streets safe from terrorism. Having suffered no attacks from Islamist inspired attackers which were largely contained to increasingly losing causes in East Africa, Afghanistan and pockets of the Middle East, we are now under constant watch to see where the next is coming from. 9/11 could and should have been their last ditch, desperate attempt to seize the agenda. But the response created new space for jihadis to go, with new scores to settle reinvigorated. Now it's not just Europe, but areas of North and West Africa, Asia, Australia - places that have never really had to contend with any serious and sustained threat from radicalised militants on this scale at any time in the past.

We sell arms to the Saudis who we know as the single largest state sponsor of Wahhabism which spreads its chaos throughout the Islamic world and infects the minds of the vulnerable, impressionable and isolated loners across the world looking for a cause. When they do, we wonder how people became so radicalised and sociopathic arguably even mentally ill, that they simply don't care about themselves or others. We export arms to Saudi, while they export explosive ideas and funding to 'radical' preachers throughout the world.

As Home Secretary, Theresa May announced the Prevent strategy. A singularly ineffective policy which was meant to enable, encourage and even compel people to report radicalised behaviour. Derided by experts, unworkable on a practical and sometimes even legal level, it's just a gimmick.

On immigration - to which I would say this particular incident is only tangentially related given the lad was British albeit born to Libyan refugee parents, it's one thing to have a tough immigration policy. It's unrealistic and simplistic to believe that in the modern world you can have a zero immigration policy, but the backdrop is that there has been a huge failure in integration policy. As Home Secretary, May wanted there to be a "hostile environment" for immigrants. She still does. A blunt and unsophisticated system that creates outsiders, dehumanises and keeps people as outsiders with no reward and no remission for those who do as much as they can to include themselves.

There's no follow up to see if people are here for the reasons they said. The system - and I know it well - has no resource to provide checkpoints to objectively and fairly assess what someone does with their life here apart from the expiry date of a visa. There's a multiple choice English language exam and a multiple choice 'life in the UK' test and a pledge of loyalty to an assumed identity and flag but there's no plan. The whole thing needs rethought in a massive way. There are huge cost-recovery based application fees, but Border Force has been cut by 5,000, local expertise on-shored to the UK to save money and swathes of the immigration service on temp contracts. We are pretty much unique in the world for not having any exit checks: without these, we don't know who is here, who has left, who is returning and from where and for why.

We rely on partial IPC data and even then, that is only glanced at for statistical purposes and patterns. When the Coalition Gov mooted these (to the credit of the LibDems), one meeting I was at in London discussed the fact that the physical space required for exit checks would have a negative effect on an airport's retail and commercial activity.

On religious organisations: tax breaks, charitable status but who is checking that they are making a socially cohesive contribution across the board? Who funds them? Why? Which politician has the spine to stand up to baying anti-immigration politics to point out that this isn't about being a soft touch or 'social justice warriors' but that social cohesion and integration policy it is about having a holistic plan.

It's all small state, austerity-fixated, short termist, hardline rhetoric with no follow through. A massive failure to have a plan for the realities of globalisation sometimes even to deny its existence altogether. A lack of courage to take responsibility for the country in anything more than a superficial and simplistic way.

In the end, these things will continue to play out. The public will demand all kinds of retribution while many of the underlying aspects go unresolved. Too complex to explain in a soundbite, too costly to implement in austerity and too long term a project to leave in the fleeting hands of career politicians.

As they say, war is politics by other means, but war is a failure of politics. Innocent people will continue to be killed by isolated sociopaths, while governments rearrange the deck chairs to limit the damage and seize the narrative from the hurt it leaves behind.

A well thought out post, Steak Bake. There are complex geopolitical and domestic problems that are playing out in terrible ways, even upon kids at pop concerts. There are no short term solutions, sadly.

[Moulin Yarns]

no idea mate, it was that ticker tape thing on sky news, i'm thinking he's in denial that the piece of filth he helped spawn is a murderous ****bag, i'l apologise to him if i'm wrong

Taken from the BBC



Ramadan Abedi told Bloomberg he hadn’t been contacted by British authorities about his son, who was reportedly known to the security services before Monday’s bombing.

He said: “I was really shocked when I saw the news, I still don’t believe it. The holy month of Ramadan starts this weekend.


My son was as religious as any child who opens his eyes in a religious family. As we were discussing news of similar attacks earlier, he was always against those attacks, saying there’s no religious justification for them. I don’t understand how he’d have become involved in an attack that led to the killing of children.”

[steakbake]

Some interesting points, which by the sounds of it are made with the benefit of a fair degree of inside knowledge?

I'm a little confused by the origins of the Prevent scheme, which this BBC article seems to imply had its origins in the 7/7 London bombings of 2005, long before Theresa May was Home Secretary?:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38440939

Timelines aside, I see Amber Rudd has today confirmed that the scheme is in the process of being stepped up. Out of interest, do you know how involved Muslim bodies (eg Muslim Council of Britain) are involved in its implementation and is this an area where improvements could be made? eg do they feel sidelined in the process and see it as an 'us' and 'them' situation? Is there a better way of showing that both the government and Muslim bodies share a joint commitment to tackling extremism?

As for the immigration system, from what you say it does indeed sound as though a massive overhaul is needed. I think what baffles a lot of people in the wake of each passing atrocity is that so often it is subsequently announced that the perpetrator was 'known' to the authorities. Abedi had returned from Libya just a few days ago. On the surface, being 'known' to the authorities and recently returning from Libya would strike many as sufficient reason to at least keep closer checks on him. Or is it not that simple? When you see quotes like this (again on the BBC) you can't help but wonder why wasn't this guy picked up earlier?

"Mohammed Saeed El-Saeiti, the imam at the Didsbury Mosque, remembers Abedi as an dangerous extremist. "Salman showed me the face of hate after my speech on Isis [an acronym for the Islamic State group]," said the imam. "He used to show me the face of hate and I could tell this person does not like me. It's not a surprise to me."

Sorry, a lot of questions there which are probably just too complicated to provide simple answers to!

GB - will get back to you in more time. Definitely have things to say about that.

MCB are not particularly supportive of Prevent, but more because it is about ideology and not about identifying people who are leaning towards violence.

On TM - agreed, it's not her creation but she did make it statutory in July 2015 and since then, people have a duty to act and engage with Prevent.

More soon but cheers for your thoughts...

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

This is what I find the most frightening thing.

How the **** do you police against a brainwashed lunatic who makes a bomb in their kitchen and thinks it's acceptable to put it in a backpack and walk into a crowd. You can't.

I was saying that to my old man last night, lone wolves who don't need to be contacting folk over the internet must be pretty much untraceable. Scary but, what are we meant to do? Carry on and hope you aint in the wrong place at the wrong time, its very arbitrary but, whats the other option?

[cabbageandribs1875]

Taken from the BBC


thanks for that GF, ignorance on my part re his father, i'm wondering why he didn't do an interview with a UK based TV company....the mans not even in this country


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-24/manchester-bomber-s-father-says-son-made-regular-visits-to-libya


although his father did have links to al queda in the past and was a member of some islamist fighting group, although appears to have renounced all that stuff in recent years

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I was saying that to my old man last night, lone wolves who don't need to be contacting folk over the internet must be pretty much untraceable. Scary but, what are we meant to do? Carry on and hope you aint in the wrong place at the wrong time, its very arbitrary but, whats the other option?

Sorry H&A has pretty much said most of this already.

[Scouse Hibee]

Armed police don't make me feel any safer.


I agree they don't make me feel any safer either,however I would much rather one was on hand sooner rather than later to stop an attacker in a car or with a knife etc.

[G B Young]

I was saying that to my old man last night, lone wolves who don't need to be contacting folk over the internet must be pretty much untraceable. Scary but, what are we meant to do? Carry on and hope you aint in the wrong place at the wrong time, its very arbitrary but, whats the other option?

Police now seem to be clear it's a 'network' that they're investigating rather than a lone wolf over the attack and that the bomber himself may have been a 'mule' carrying a bomb made by somebody else.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40032504

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Police now seem to be clear it's a 'network' that they're investigating rather than a lone wolf over the attack and that the bomber himself may have been a 'mule' carrying a bomb made by somebody else.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40032504

Fair enough, I was basing my post on a convo i'd had last night, the gist of which still stands, its nae time for pettiness though. (On my part).

[G B Young]

I agree they don't make me feel any safer either,however I would much rather one was on hand sooner rather than later to stop an attacker in a car or with a knife etc.

I may be wrong, but the way I'm reading it is that when you raise the UK threat level to 'critical' that automatically means troops are deployed where necessary.

It's an unnerving step and one I hope we don't have to get used to, but as somebody else pointed out it's become the daily reality in Paris and Brussels and in the current climate there seems no indication that the 'critical' threat level can be lowered in the UK any day soon.

[Scouse Hibee]

I may be wrong, but the way I'm reading it is that when you raise the UK threat level to 'critical' that automatically means troops are deployed where necessary.

It's an unnerving step and one I hope we don't have to get used to, but as somebody else pointed out it's become the daily reality in Paris and Brussels and in the current climate there seems no indication that the 'critical' threat level can be lowered in the UK any day soon.


I think you're right but according to the chief constable on the radio Scotland does not deem it necessary to have troops deployed on the streets just now.

[G B Young]

Fair enough, I was basing my post on a convo i'd had last night, the gist of which still stands, its nae time for pettiness though. (On my part).

Yes, I absolutely agree with the gist of your post. What ARE we supposed to do? How long do you just go about your business hoping you don't end up in the wrong place at the wrong time? What would it take for the mantra that by showing our solidarity we will 'never let terrorism win' to completely fall apart? Another couple such attacks and I'm not sure how strongly that message would stand up.

Take Paris, for example. A beautiful city, easy to reach and a tourist haven (albeit with long documented problems outwith the showpiece centre). I've visited a number of times but I wouldn't go there now, especially not with my kids. A sad state of affairs, but I don't mind admitting I just don't want to take the risk.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You're romanticising a bit too much here.

I highly doubt that giving rights to women and gay people matter as much to these martyrs as our foreign policy does.

We should be doing more to avoid dicking around in that part of the world in future. We can't stop every attack from being successful, but we can control the business we conduct in other parts of the world.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Yeah maybe, but we cant undo the past.

And what about when part of ghe world is crying out fpr us to dick about and intervene, or what about when millions from there are trying very hard to escape war and are trying to get to europe in their millions?

Its not as simplistic as just leaving them to it, unfortunately

[G B Young]

I think you're right but according to the chief constable on the radio Scotland does not deem it necessary to have troops deployed on the streets just now.

Here's hoping that's a reassuring sign that Scotland really is not a high profile target. Mind you, I think the last time the troops were deployed was in the wake of the Glasgow Airport attack.

You can't help wondering in the light of what happened in Manchester what sort of security operation takes place around events like the Edinburgh Festival and Hogmanay. I'd assume the hidden levels of surveillance/security are a lot more than we're aware of as these sort of events would seem to be ideal targets for the type of person who thinks nothing of detonating a bomb at a pop concert.

[Dinkydoo]

Yeah maybe, but we cant undo the past.

And what about when part of ghe world is crying out fpr us to dick about and intervene, or what about when millions from there are trying very hard to escape war and are trying to get to europe in their millions?

Its not as simplistic as just leaving them to it, unfortunately

If you remember though, part of the reason why Syria and Lybia are an absolute mess is because we picked a side in their respective civil wars in an attempt to get rid of some guys in power that we didn't fancy. I agree that ISIS should be stopped but we're partly responsible for their inception in the first place.

Personally I'm sick of our respective governments in the west side-stepping any ****ing accountability when atrocities like this happen. You'd think that children being blown-up at a pop concert would give them a kick up the arse to re-evaluate foreign policy in north africa and the middle east, but no, instead we'll all grieve and repeat the usual mantras about "going about our daily lives in defiance" whilst achieving absolutely nothing.

We need to challenge the idea that these radicalised nutters hate us because we have a free and wonderful society that contradicts principles within their religion. That may be a small part of it, but believing that to be the main motivation is symptomatic of having your head up your arse, I'm afraid.



Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

If you remember though, part of the reason why Syria and Lybia are an absolute mess is because we picked a side in their respective civil wars in an attempt to get rid of some guys in power that we didn't fancy. I agree that ISIS should be stopped but we're partly responsible for their inception in the first place.

Personally I'm sick of our respective governments in the west side-stepping any ****ing accountability when atrocities like this happen. You'd think that children being blown-up at a pop concert would give them a kick up the arse to re-evaluate foreign policy in north africa and the middle east, but no, instead we'll all grieve and repeat the usual mantras about "going about our daily lives in defiance" whilst achieving absolutely nothing.

We need to challenge the idea that these radicalised nutters hate us because we have a free and wonderful society that contradicts principles within their religion. That may be a small part of it, but believing that to be the main motivation is symptomatic of having your head up your arse, I'm afraid.



Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Ok, lets just respectfully agree to disagree.

[Hibernia&Alba]

If you remember though, part of the reason why Syria and Lybia are an absolute mess is because we picked a side in their respective civil wars in an attempt to get rid of some guys in power that we didn't fancy. I agree that ISIS should be stopped but we're partly responsible for their inception in the first place.

Personally I'm sick of our respective governments in the west side-stepping any ****ing accountability when atrocities like this happen. You'd think that children being blown-up at a pop concert would give them a kick up the arse to re-evaluate foreign policy in north africa and the middle east, but no, instead we'll all grieve and repeat the usual mantras about "going about our daily lives in defiance" whilst achieving absolutely nothing.

We need to challenge the idea that these radicalised nutters hate us because we have a free and wonderful society that contradicts principles within their religion. That may be a small part of it, but believing that to be the main motivation is symptomatic of having your head up your arse, I'm afraid.



Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Theresa May was confronted about her vote in favour of the Iraq war by Andrew Marr a couple of weeks ago. She refused to say whether she regrets it. Whilst there is absolutely no justification for killing kids at pop concerts, there is no doubt that our government(s) are responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people across the middle east and North Africa, which has created fury. Merely adding to the number of innocent casualties can't possibly achieve anything, however.

[silverhibee]

Sky news. Brother of attacker has been arrested in Tripoli.

[Dinkydoo]

Ok, lets just respectfully agree to disagree.
The head up your arse comment was a general slur towards our society in general, don't take it personally. ;)

Yep, happy to do that if there's nothing to discuss

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The head up your arse comment was a general slur towards our society in general, don't take it personally. ;)

Yep, happy to do that if there's nothing to discuss

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

No worries mate, my skin (and my head!) are too thick to take things too personally!!!

Just doesnt seem like the time or the place for such a debate.

[Slavers]

The head up your arse comment was a general slur towards our society in general, don't take it personally. ;)

Yep, happy to do that if there's nothing to discuss

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

I'm not sure you understand the motivation of these people. The brand of Islam they adhere to hates the west and everything we stand for. If you think keeping out there way and or appeasing them will change their minds then your gravely mistaken.

[Dinkydoo]

No worries mate, my skin (and my head!) are too thick to take things too personally!!!

Just doesnt seem like the time or the place for such a debate.
You could be right, it probably isn't the thread for a drawn out debate.

Like everyone else I'm just feeling a bit frustrated and upset about the whole thing, but I've said what I felt I needed to add.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Hibernia&Alba]

I'm not sure you understand the motivation of these people. The brand of Islam they adhere to hates the west and everything we stand for. If you think keeping out there way and or appeasing them will change their minds then your gravely mistaken.

Starting illegal wars and creating failed states hasn't helped either. So what's the answer?

[Dinkydoo]

I'm not sure you understand the motivation of these people. The brand of Islam they adhere to hates the west and everything we stand for. If you think keeping out there way and or appeasing them will change their minds then your gravely mistaken.
I didn't say anything about appeasement, more along the lines of if we hadn't have been so careless in the past (and that's affording an awful lot of ignorance to politicians, which is probably being too kind), we wpuldn't have as big a mess to try to cleanup (and deal with the backlash of) now.

Let's continue this another time and not derail the thread any more.

Cheers,

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Pete]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/05/24/world/europe/100000005126056.mobile.html

American news agencies seem to be willing to publish the most information.

A very well made bomb with a low risk of failure. There's obviously an organised cell behind this.

[Leith Green]

I dont get how 8 folk are still missing? Could they be in a hospital somewhere (unlikely to not have been found yet if they were) , or are they more likley to have been blown up and are unrecognisable ??

[Smartie]

I dont get how 8 folk are still missing? Could they be in a hospital somewhere (unlikely to not have been found yet if they were) , or are they more likley to have been blown up and are unrecognisable ??

The aftermath of these attacks are normally about 100x worse than the worst you could possibly imagine them to be.

[Leith Green]

The aftermath of these attacks are normally about 100x worse than the worst you could possibly imagine them to be.

Yeah , i just read that the police believe all the missing people are now accounted for . Obviously they must have been in a really bad way .. such a shame for their families to have 2 days of the unknown prior to finding this out.

[silverhibee]

There are currently no plans to have armed troops on the streets or assisting the Police in Scotland.


A strange decision to make considering we have Obama visiting Edinburgh on Friday, security will be hugely stretched for this visit and may leave other parts of Scotland open for attack, with Obama himself being a huge target for these nutters as well if they are still out there and not fled back to another country then Obama would be the perfect target for these monsters.

[ronaldo7]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/05/24/world/europe/100000005126056.mobile.html

American news agencies seem to be willing to publish the most information.

A very well made bomb with a low risk of failure. There's obviously an organised cell behind this.

You've got to wonder how our police are dealing with this, if the make up of the bomb is making it's way to the NYT.

I know the press will be seeking information to fill column inches, however, it seems to me, they're releasing way too much evidence here, unless it's leaked of course.

[Scouse Hibee]

A strange decision to make considering we have Obama visiting Edinburgh on Friday, security will be hugely stretched for this visit and may leave other parts of Scotland open for attack, with Obama himself being a huge target for these nutters as well if they are still out there and not fled back to another country then Obama would be the perfect target for these monsters.

Edinburgh is well versed in providing protection and Security for high profile visits. Plus his own security detail and advance party will have done their homework. It won't stretch or leave anywhere else vulnerable you can be assured.

[cabbageandribs1875]

teve Swann
BBC Home Affairs Unit



Posted at16:35
A Muslim community worker has told BBC News that members of the public called the police anti-terrorism hotline warning about the Manchester suicide bomber’s extreme and violent views several years ago.
The BBC also understands that Abedi was in Manchester earlier this year when he told people of the value of dying for a cause and made hardline statements about suicide operations and the conflict in Libya.
The community worker – who did not want to be identified – said two people who knew Salman Abedi at college made separate calls to the police.
They had been worried that “he was supporting terrorism” and had expressed the view that “being a suicide bomber was OK.” The friends had argued with him, telling him he was wrong but had become so concerned they contacted the police.
The community worker told the BBC “all of the publicity is about Muslims not coming forward and this shows that they are coming forward and expressing their concerns.”
The calls are thought to have been made around five years ago after Abedi left school, where he was known to have smoked marijuana and mixed with gangs in south Manchester.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The aftermath of these attacks are normally about 100x worse than the worst you could possibly imagine them to be.

I'm sure this is the case. One can't imagine the sight that confronted the survivors, the emergency services and the forensic units. It would haunt you forever.

[The Harp Awakes]

teve Swann
BBC Home Affairs Unit



Posted at16:35
A Muslim community worker has told BBC News that members of the public called the police anti-terrorism hotline warning about the Manchester suicide bomber’s extreme and violent views several years ago.
The BBC also understands that Abedi was in Manchester earlier this year when he told people of the value of dying for a cause and made hardline statements about suicide operations and the conflict in Libya.
The community worker – who did not want to be identified – said two people who knew Salman Abedi at college made separate calls to the police.
They had been worried that “he was supporting terrorism” and had expressed the view that “being a suicide bomber was OK.” The friends had argued with him, telling him he was wrong but had become so concerned they contacted the police.
The community worker told the BBC “all of the publicity is about Muslims not coming forward and this shows that they are coming forward and expressing their concerns.”
The calls are thought to have been made around five years ago after Abedi left school, where he was known to have smoked marijuana and mixed with gangs in south Manchester.




I think there are 3 conclusions you can draw from this report:

1. The information from the BBC and community worker about Abedi are inaccurate (unlikely); or

2. The Police and MI5 have been negligent and missed the opportunity to stop this atrocity; or

3. The Police and MI5 could not have prevented this atrocity because the the magnitude of the the IS terrorist threat is so great that they do not have the resources to deal with that threat.

God help us if it is no3.

[steakbake]

I think there are 3 conclusions you can draw from this report:

1. The information from the BBC and community worker about Abedi are inaccurate (unlikely); or

2. The Police and MI5 have been negligent and missed the opportunity to stop this atrocity; or

3. The Police and MI5 could not have prevented this atrocity because the the magnitude of the the IS terrorist threat is so great that they do not have the resources to deal with that threat.

God help us if it is no3.

4. The previous Home Secretary, who had oversight of counter terrorism has overseen a system where 5 opportunities were missed.

[Steve-O]

There could well have been intel and concern about this guy but it may well have been some way off looking like he was planning an imminent attack. You can't just go in and arrest someone because someone phoned the Police saying they're worried about someone.

I'm sure he's just one of thousands that are on the radar for one reason or another.

You're just never going to stop these things completely, even with the best intel in the world.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

4. The previous Home Secretary, who had oversight of counter terrorism has overseen a system where 5 opportunities were missed.

Didnt takr long for the political point scoring to begin.

Well done, take a bow.

[Moulin Yarns]

The outcry about the New York Times publishing photographs is the right thing to do, UK security passes info to US security and it appears immediately in the press in America, but, it is a bit hypocritical IMO when all UK media then start publishing the same photographs.

If it is sensitive info, type of detonators and material used in the bomb, why are the press and media not fined for this breach of security.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40040210

Are the BBC et al not making things worse?

[marinello59]

The outcry about the New York Times publishing photographs is the right thing to do, UK security passes info to US security and it appears immediately in the press in America, but, it is a bit hypocritical IMO when all UK media then start publishing the same photographs.

If it is sensitive info, type of detonators and material used in the bomb, why are the press and media not fined for this breach of security.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40040210

Are the BBC et al not making things worse?

Once the info has appeared in public somewhere in the world the damage is done. The BBC etc publishing this after that really makes no difference, the people under investigation already know what the authorities know.

[ronaldo7]

Didnt takr long for the political point scoring to begin.

Well done, take a bow.

You're going to have to accept that the Government will come under scrutiny on their policies on policing and security in the aftermath of this tragic event.

[marinello59]

You're going to have to accept that the Government will come under scrutiny on their policies on policing and security in the aftermath of this tragic event.

And so they should. We have troops on the streets because May slashed the police budgets whilst she was Home Secretary. And when the police tried to point out that it would limit their ability to deal with the threat of Terrorism she accused them of crying wolf.

[Hibrandenburg]

Didnt takr long for the political point scoring to begin.

Well done, take a bow.

Questions have to be asked and when the security alert is at critical it might already be too late. You're defence of the prime minister is admirable but I'd like this investigated before the election.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

For the record, im not defending this govt per se, but i dont believe this PM or Home Secretary is any more responsible, culpable or implicated in this attack than Blair, Blunkett or Straw werr in 2007, or than Salmond and Mackaskill were where Gladgow airport was attacked.

There may well have been cuts to police, but id bet that anti-terrorism funding, MI5 funding have increased exponentially in the last 15 years or so.

This isnt a partisan point because it is not a partisan issue. Oir elected officials will bow to the recommendations of the experts on matters like this. Of course the PM had the ultinate say, but why on earth would any PM go against the recommendations of our renowned security services, amd take a risk (however small, however unlikely) in tge aftermath of an attack like this?

If another attack happened, and it turned out that she had declined to step up security, she would be pilloried, rightly so.

Im really not sure what anyone expects in this situation? Of course our elected officials will be risk averse in this situation.

[JeMeSouviens]

For the record, im not defending this govt per se, but i dont believe this PM or Home Secretary is any more responsible, culpable or implicated in this attack than Blair, Blunkett or Straw werr in 2007, or than Salmond and Mackaskill were where Gladgow airport was attacked.

There may well have been cuts to police, but id bet that anti-terrorism funding, MI5 funding have increased exponentially in the last 15 years or so.

This isnt a partisan point because it is not a partisan issue. Oir elected officials will bow to the recommendations of the experts on matters like this. Of course the PM had the ultinate say, but why on earth would any PM go against the recommendations of our renowned security services, amd take a risk (however small, however unlikely) in tge aftermath of an attack like this?

If another attack happened, and it turned out that she had declined to step up security, she would be pilloried, rightly so.

Im really not sure what anyone expects in this situation? Of course our elected officials will be risk averse in this situation.

Actually that's one of the stand out things about May at the Home Office that's carrying on into her premiership: she routinely ignores experts and does what her and her inner circle, chiefly Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill, think is right.

[Just Alf]

What I'm finding disappointing in this is that we can share info with Libya with no security concerns (actually led to a couple of arrests) but we now don't seem able to do the same with the USA.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Actually that's one of the stand out things about May at the Home Office that's carrying on into her premiership: she routinely ignores experts and does what her and her inner circle, chiefly Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill, think is right.

I doubt she has, or will routinely ignore the security svces. I doubt any PM would.

Anyway i dont want to get this into a political debate, i just have sympathy for politicians in these circumstances where they make decisions based on info that we will never know.

In these situations im happy to trust our elected officials of whatevet hue that they are making the right calls, and are being risk averse when it comes to our safety.

From what i have read, the only way i can see that this plot would have been able to be avoided is for an enormous expansion of our security apparatus, to cover almost anyone that has ever come to their attention. This would obviously habe to be heavily focused on a the muslim community.

Im not sure that is either feasible or desirable.

[Sylar]

Bomb disposal unit and army have been sent to Trafford College now.

[Just Jimmy]

Bomb disposal unit and army have been sent to Trafford College now.
Its actually Linby street in hulme which is the castlefield campus of trafford college to the south of the city.

Its over now anyway.

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[Sylar]

Its actually Linby street in hulme which is the castlefield campus of trafford college to the south of the city.

Its over now anyway.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Cheers J. Glad it amounted to nothing - just clocked it as breaking news on the BBC site when I posted.

[G B Young]

You're going to have to accept that the Government will come under scrutiny on their policies on policing and security in the aftermath of this tragic event.

Scrutiny yes, but with a view to seeing where things could be improved - not as a means of political point scoring (as UKIP are so transparently trying to do).

Nobody should lose sight of the fact that the only people to blame for this and any similar such mass murder are the b******s who perpetrated it.

[JeMeSouviens]

Don't know anything about the source (Middle East Eye) but this report suggests British security services actively encouraged British Islamists with Libyan links to go and fight against Gaddafi.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/sorted-mi5-how-uk-government-sent-british-libyans-fight-gaddafi-1219906488

If true, how many times do we have to go down the "my enemy's enemy" route and get bitten before we learn?

[JeMeSouviens]

I doubt she has, or will routinely ignore the security svces. I doubt any PM would.

Anyway i dont want to get this into a political debate, i just have sympathy for politicians in these circumstances where they make decisions based on info that we will never know.

In these situations im happy to trust our elected officials of whatevet hue that they are making the right calls, and are being risk averse when it comes to our safety.

From what i have read, the only way i can see that this plot would have been able to be avoided is for an enormous expansion of our security apparatus, to cover almost anyone that has ever come to their attention. This would obviously habe to be heavily focused on a the muslim community.

Im not sure that is either feasible or desirable.

There are multiple strands to this and (imo) no point pretending that it's not a live political issue. Security of the population is pretty much any government's priority.

1. security apparatus, ie. the containment of the terrorists and their plots
2. "hearts and minds" in the communities they come from. The IRA used to say the nationalist population at large was the water in which they, the fish, could swim (I think that's a Maoist idea but anyway ...).
3. other domestic policy areas, immigration etc.
4. foreign policy

(1) is short term and hard, the others are long term and hard. 1-3 have been pretty much all under May's direct control for years and are simultaneously regarded as Corbyn's weak points to attack. Sadly, as per everyone's social media, they are also ripe for exploitation by populists, fascists and sundry other ****s. :no way:

Talking about what might be done to avoid similar things happening (and I think this forum does that pretty well for the most part) is surely better than just sinking into abject despair?

[Slavers]

Don't know anything about the source (Middle East Eye) but this report suggests British security services actively encouraged British Islamists with Libyan links to go and fight against Gaddafi.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/sorted-mi5-how-uk-government-sent-british-libyans-fight-gaddafi-1219906488

If true, how many times do we have to go down the "my enemy's enemy" route and get bitten before we learn?

Correct and our Government also encouraged British Citizens to go and fight against Assad in Syria.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Correct and our Government also encouraged British Citizens to go and fight against Assad in Syria.


who is 'our' government ? can you elaborate please

[Slavers]

who is 'our' government ? can you elaborate please

David Cameron at the time when he was Prime Minister.

[cabbageandribs1875]

David Cameron at the time when he was Prime Minister.



so what exactly did he say :dunno:

[Slavers]

so what exactly did he say :dunno:

Something along the lines of go and fight for your Syrian brothers sisters and help topple the brutal dictator Assad.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

There are multiple strands to this and (imo) no point pretending that it's not a live political issue. Security of the population is pretty much any government's priority.

1. security apparatus, ie. the containment of the terrorists and their plots
2. "hearts and minds" in the communities they come from. The IRA used to say the nationalist population at large was the water in which they, the fish, could swim (I think that's a Maoist idea but anyway ...).
3. other domestic policy areas, immigration etc.
4. foreign policy

(1) is short term and hard, the others are long term and hard. 1-3 have been pretty much all under May's direct control for years and are simultaneously regarded as Corbyn's weak points to attack. Sadly, as per everyone's social media, they are also ripe for exploitation by populists, fascists and sundry other ****s. :no way:

Talking about what might be done to avoid similar things happening (and I think this forum does that pretty well for the most part) is surely better than just sinking into abject despair?

Of course it is - but i dont think that is what was happening above.

Having studies a wee bit about govt responses to different terrorist threats back in my student days, the one that struck me as most effective was Thatchers criminalistion policy with the IRA.

However im not sure that woyld work here.

[Slavers]

Starting illegal wars and creating failed states hasn't helped either. So what's the answer?

I agree that hasn't helped and is one factor but there is no easy answer at all. Governments have allowed the situation where large groups who follow extreme strands of Islam have bedded themselves into the UK and throughout Europe.

Rounding the extremists up doesn't seem a palatable option.

In regards to the wars we get involved In, the media cant even be honest with us and give us the real reason as to why we get involved with the wars which is either for oil, the petro dollar or to balkanize the countries around Israel IMO.

Then we have the religious aspect. It's one big mess.

[ronaldo7]

Scrutiny yes, but with a view to seeing where things could be improved - not as a means of political point scoring (as UKIP are so transparently trying to do).

Nobody should lose sight of the fact that the only people to blame for this and any similar such mass murder are the b******s who perpetrated it.

Scrutiny and being held to account for their actions (or lack of)

I agree with your last sentence, but it brings out more about our leadership in policing policy and predominantly community policing in Manchester. I've seen numerous accounts of policemen being removed from post and in one case the guy had pleaded with Theresa May to stop her cuts to his Force.

It fell on deaf ears, and in his words, "We will lose the contacts we've made in the local community".

https://t.co/OvBMUtErMw

As has been said on the thread, their are many strands to the reasons we're here, and it's going to take some time to get fixed. IMO

[JeMeSouviens]

Of course it is - but i dont think that is what was happening above.

Having studies a wee bit about govt responses to different terrorist threats back in my student days, the one that struck me as most effective was Thatchers criminalistion policy with the IRA.

However im not sure that woyld work here.

Actually Merlyn Rees in the previous Lab government. But we don't have any kind of political status for Islamic militants anyway, they are effectively already criminalised?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Actually Merlyn Rees in the previous Lab government. But we don't have any kind of political status for Islamic militants anyway, they are effectively already criminalised?

Fair enough, i stand corrected and I remember Rees was very influential too.

I know its a different threat, but a lot of the same tactics could be used - aggressive pusuit of informants and infiltration, extensive surveillance etc. But all of this would have to be targeted at the muslim community, and so i doubt it would go down too well.

Other tactics, such as death squads, covert ops, extra-judicial killngs and sending in the SAS probably wouldn't work, and certainly wouldn't be tolerated.

Ad someonr above said, there is no answer and many of the potential answers are unpalatable.

[Hibrandenburg]

Fair enough, i stand corrected and I remember Rees was very influential too.

I know its a different threat, but a lot of the same tactics could be used - aggressive pusuit of informants and infiltration, extensive surveillance etc. But all of this would have to be targeted at the muslim community, and so i doubt it would go down too well.

Other tactics, such as death squads, covert ops, extra-judicial killngs and sending in the SAS probably wouldn't work, and certainly wouldn't be tolerated.

Ad someonr above said, there is no answer and many of the potential answers are unpalatable.

What about internment, that's worked well in the past.

[Leith Green]

This event has got me seriously re-thinking where i stand on Scottish independence. I have been a very vocal and staunch supporter for independence , I have never considered myself British and for that reason alone i have always craved Scottish independence. I did also vote for Brexit though as i dont like the way Europe is heading. Immigration is a good thing if its in a relatively small amount and it is for the good of our country, the problem here is that we see the complete opposite being the case these days.

[Just Alf]

This event has got me seriously re-thinking where i stand on Scottish independence. I have been a very vocal and staunch supporter for independence , I have never considered myself British and for that reason alone i have always craved Scottish independence. I did also vote for Brexit though as i dont like the way Europe is heading. Immigration is a good thing if its in a relatively small amount and it is for the good of our country, the problem here is that we see the complete opposite being the case these days.
How does this relate here tho? The guy was born in England... (admittedly to immigrant parents)

Arguably, and on a very selfish note, independence would remove us as a target... In the short term anyway... As "we" would in theory not be seen as a country interfering in the middle east.


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[Leith Green]

How does this relate here tho? The guy was born in England... (admittedly to immigrant parents)

Arguably, and on a very selfish note, independence would remove us as a target... In the short term anyway... As "we" would in theory not be seen as a country interfering in the middle east.


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I worry for my kids 20-30 years down the line . The amount of immigrants entering Europe is crazy and there are lots of extremists amongst them. Im totally against racism and respect all colours and creeds, but immigration for me should be minimal and offered to those who will bring something to the country.

[wookie70]

I worry for my kids 20-30 years down the line . The amount of immigrants entering Europe is crazy and there are lots of extremists amongst them. Im totally against racism and respect all colours and creeds, but immigration for me should be minimal and offered to those who will bring something to the country.

Our immigrants to the middle East tend to be bombs and soldiers. Perhaps if we stopped our terrorism activities then the need for immigration would be gone. If we continue to bomb the crap out of countries don't be surprised if the locals want to live somewhere else. At least they know they are safe here as even the British Govt isn't stupid enough to bomb Britain.

[G B Young]

Our immigrants to the middle East tend to be bombs and soldiers. Perhaps if we stopped our terrorism activities then the need for immigration would be gone. If we continue to bomb the crap out of countries don't be surprised if the locals want to live somewhere else. At least they know they are safe here as even the British Govt isn't stupid enough to bomb Britain.

Our armed forces are not terrorists.

[Slavers]

How does this relate here tho? The guy was born in England... (admittedly to immigrant parents)

Arguably, and on a very selfish note, independence would remove us as a target... In the short term anyway... As "we" would in theory not be seen as a country interfering in the middle east.


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I find this logic a little odd.

For example say in your future independent Scotland ISIS lets of a bomb in CJ Blooms killings dozens of gay people then would you apply the same logic - Well at least I am not guilty of being gay, so I'm unlikely to be caught up in any more attacks.

It's not a dig at you but at it's aimed at another misleading reason for Scottish independence and using independence as the solution to everything - I see it time and time again.

On a more wider note stopping honourable interventions in he middle east to appease Islamic religious fanatics is not only cowardly but fails the people who are killed, raped and oppressed by groups like ISIS, we should never back down from these religious fanatics.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Our immigrants to the middle East tend to be bombs and soldiers. Perhaps if we stopped our terrorism activities then the need for immigration would be gone. If we continue to bomb the crap out of countries don't be surprised if the locals want to live somewhere else. At least they know they are safe here as even the British Govt isn't stupid enough to bomb Britain.

Im not sure the Yazidis would agree with you, or the Kurds.

[Just Alf]

I find this logic a little odd.

For example say in your future independent Scotland ISIS lets of a bomb in CJ Blooms killings dozens of gay people then would you apply the same logic - Well at least I am not guilty of being gay, so I'm unlikely to be caught up in any more attacks.

It's not a dig at you but at it's aimed at another misleading reason for Scottish independence and using independence as the solution to everything - I see it time and time again.

On a more wider note stopping honourable interventions in he middle east to appease Islamic religious fanatics is not only cowardly but fails the people who are killed, raped and oppressed by groups like ISIS, we should never back down from these religious fanatics.

You make a fair point.... After posting I actually had another think and the reality would probably we'd more than likely see no real difference.

[JeMeSouviens]

This event has got me seriously re-thinking where i stand on Scottish independence. I have been a very vocal and staunch supporter for independence , I have never considered myself British and for that reason alone i have always craved Scottish independence. I did also vote for Brexit though as i dont like the way Europe is heading. Immigration is a good thing if its in a relatively small amount and it is for the good of our country, the problem here is that we see the complete opposite being the case these days.

Post-Brexit, Tory after Tory has admitted that overall levels of immigration will not fall. It was never about that for them as the economy needs a plentiful supply of youthful labour to counter the UK's ageing demographic. In fact, Brexit is likely to see a lot more immigration from non-EU countries to make up the shortfall from EU migrants that can't or don't want to come here any longer. In turn that probably means a significant increase in the Islamic population of the UK.

Anyway, the Manchester bomber was born and brought up here, the 7/7 bombers were born and brought up here ...

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Post-Brexit, Tory after Tory has admitted that overall levels of immigration will not fall. It was never about that for them as the economy needs a plentiful supply of youthful labour to counter the UK's ageing demographic. In fact, Brexit is likely to see a lot more immigration from non-EU countries to make up the shortfall from EU migrants that can't or don't want to come here any longer. In turn that probably means a significant increase in the Islamic population of the UK.

Anyway, the Manchester bomber was born and brought up here, the 7/7 bombers were born and brought up here ...

I think conflating this problem with immigration is problematic. They may usually come from 'immigrant communities' but i think most proponents are British.

[JeMeSouviens]

I find this logic a little odd.

For example say in your future independent Scotland ISIS lets of a bomb in CJ Blooms killings dozens of gay people then would you apply the same logic - Well at least I am not guilty of being gay, so I'm unlikely to be caught up in any more attacks.

It's not a dig at you but at it's aimed at another misleading reason for Scottish independence and using independence as the solution to everything - I see it time and time again.


I mostly agree with this, as in just ducking out into our own country to be less of a target seems a pretty shan thing to do. Otoh, an iScotland starting with a clean slate (and out from the oppressive influence of the Daily Mail) would have (imo) a much better chance of building an inclusive society with an ethical foreign policy much less prone to vested interest.

This is emphatically *not* to say that Scots are better or fairer than their English counterparts. People are people, wherever they are they are capable of being led into everything from heart-warming humanity to despicable barbarism (the not often seen optimistic me says the former is much more prevalent). But the UK has an establishment that clings to its faded past glory and is permanently ****ed up by a delusion of imperial grandeur. Freeing ourselves from that is among the best reasons for Scottish independence.



On a more wider note stopping honourable interventions in he middle east to appease Islamic religious fanatics is not only cowardly but fails the people who are killed, raped and oppressed by groups like ISIS, we should never back down from these religious fanatics.

How many interventions are actually honourable though? Our close chums, the Saudis have a religiously inspired society that suppresses women and various minorites and practises judicial torture on its people. We are quite happy to use Islamist fanatics when they help achieve our strategic goals. Saddam, Assad, Mubarak, Gaddafi - all authoritarian dictators but all actually keeping religious fundamentalism under control to an extent. The number 1 lesson from the last couple of decades in the Middle east surely has to be that if you're going to effect regime change in an ethnically diverse former colonial territory with no shared history as a national entity that's being held together by authoritarian dictatorship, you better have a ****ing stellar plan for what you're going to do afterwards.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I mostly agree with this, as in just ducking out into our own country to be less of a target seems a pretty shan thing to do. Otoh, an iScotland starting with a clean slate (and out from the oppressive influence of the Daily Mail) would have (imo) a much better chance of building an inclusive society with an ethical foreign policy much less prone to vested interest.

This is emphatically *not* to say that Scots are better or fairer than their English counterparts. People are people, wherever they are they are capable of being led into everything from heart-warming humanity to despicable barbarism (the not often seen optimistic me says the former is much more prevalent). But the UK has an establishment that clings to its faded past glory and is permanently ****ed up by a delusion of imperial grandeur. Freeing ourselves from that is among the best reasons for Scottish independence.



How many interventions are actually honourable though? Our close chums, the Saudis have a religiously inspired society that suppresses women and various minorites and practises judicial torture on its people. We are quite happy to use Islamist fanatics when they help achieve our strategic goals. Saddam, Assad, Mubarak, Gaddafi - all authoritarian dictators but all actually keeping religious fundamentalism under control to an extent. The number 1 lesson from the last couple of decades in the Middle east surely has to be that if you're going to effect regime change in an ethnically diverse former colonial territory with no shared history as a national entity that's being held together by authoritarian dictatorship, you better have a ****ing stellar plan for what you're going to do afterwards.

Im not sure what an ethical foreign policy is. Foreign policy is by definition about pursuing your own country's interests. I also think there is the risk of hypocrisy about being 'ethical' in fp - anti-nuclear, anti intervention etc but then jpining NATO and basking in the security that provides.

For example, am indy Scotland in NATO wpuld still have been involved in Afghanistan because, if memory serves article 5 was envoked and so we would have been obliged to participate.

Possibly a similar situation in Bosnia.

I do agree however that an indy Scotland would be less of a target because we wpuld be less relevant, we would be out of the top tier of nations and frankly few would care about us. I dont have a massive problem with that, but for many that would risk being seen as 'pulling the drawbridge up'.

Its also worth pointing put that al qaida's first attack / the first attack of note in this current phase of islamic terrorism was in Argentina, not noted for its interventionist foreign policy (except in the Falklands!)

There is also the question of what we would with our military. As quite a martial society, with lots of jobs etc i presume we would want to keep an active and effective military. If that is the case, we would have to use them every now and again, which would again suggest that we would be, to some extent or another, interventionist.

[Hibrandenburg]

I find this logic a little odd.

For example say in your future independent Scotland ISIS lets of a bomb in CJ Blooms killings dozens of gay people then would you apply the same logic - Well at least I am not guilty of being gay, so I'm unlikely to be caught up in any more attacks.

It's not a dig at you but at it's aimed at another misleading reason for Scottish independence and using independence as the solution to everything - I see it time and time again.

On a more wider note stopping honourable interventions in he middle east to appease Islamic religious fanatics is not only cowardly but fails the people who are killed, raped and oppressed by groups like ISIS, we should never back down from these religious fanatics.

But our intervention caused the vacuum that allowed groups like this to establish themselves. Just like our support for Saddam and previous meddling in the middle east helped create the other conflicts in the area.

[Stranraer]

Facebook is all of a sudden full of experts on Islam. Islamophobia is rife on my home page, mainly posted by Rangers fans. This attack was carried out by a British man, not a foreigner so can we all agree that immigration is irrelevant in this argument.

[Stranraer]

Our armed forces are not terrorists.

Some of them act like it. (Baha Mousa).

[Slavers]

But our intervention caused the vacuum that allowed groups like this to establish themselves. Just like our support for Saddam and previous meddling in the middle east helped create the other conflicts in the area.

I agree interventions by the likes of Hillary Clinton in Bengazi or Bush in Iraq have created a vacuum where the religious fanatics have filled.

But say isis for example would you stand by and watch the slaughter of Christians, gays and the sexual enslavement of Christian woman? Are you saying we should not get involved so that we don't get attacked in UK soil? I'm not sure it's as simple as that.

But just say we go along with what you seem to be suggesting and we show the Islamic fanatics that we will do as they say and stay out there affairs. What happens when our home grown Islamic fanatics decide ok we have had enough of this liberal life style we want all the gays dead in the UK as well.

How would you suggest we stop that? It's not as if gay people can stop being gay or Christians can stop being Christians in order to stop attacks bring made against them.

[Hibrandenburg]

I agree interventions by the likes of Hillary Clinton in Bengazi or Bush in Iraq have created a vacuum where the religious fanatics have filled.

But say isis for example would you stand by and watch the slaughter of Christians, gays and the sexual enslavement of Christian woman? Are you saying we should not get involved so that we don't get attacked in UK soil? I'm not sure it's as simple as that.

But just say we go along with what you seem to be suggesting and we show the Islamic fanatics that we will do as they say and stay out there affairs. What happens when our home grown Islamic fanatics decide ok we have had enough of this liberal life style we want all the gays dead in the UK as well.

How would you suggest we stop that? It's not as if gay people can stop being gay or Christians can stop being Christians in order to stop attacks bring made against them.

But the slaughter you talk of was brought about by our intervention. At some point we need to learn that our meddling only makes things worse. Yes it's hard to standby and watch on as atrocities like those carried out by Daesh happen, but we need to own up to the fact that it was a monster we helped create and meddling in things we obviously have no understanding of and no answer to but military intervention is akin to pouring petrol on the fire. Our government is ultimately responsible for our well being and can't afford or risk trying to be the world's police force, it never ends well and has brought us to where we are now.

[Slavers]

But the slaughter you talk of was brought about by our intervention. At some point we need to learn that our meddling only makes things worse. Yes it's hard to standby and watch on as atrocities like those carried out by Daesh happen, but we need to own up to the fact that it was a monster we helped create and meddling in things we obviously have no understanding of and no answer to but military intervention is akin to pouring petrol on the fire. Our government is ultimately responsible for our well being and can't afford or risk trying to be the world's police force, it never ends well and has brought us to where we are now.

I have agreed that we helped create the environment to allow Islamic extremists to take control in parts of the Middle East but the UK and he West did not create the extreme versions of Islam that carry out the slaughter of gays & Christians or non believers.

How would you suggest gay people protect themselves from extreme forms of Islam? Its no like they are bombing anyone to deserve the retribution that you seem to think the UK deserves.

[Hibrandenburg]

I have agreed that we helped create the environment to allow Islamic extremists to take control in parts of the Middle East but the UK and he West did not create the extreme versions of Islam that carry out the slaughter of gays & Christians or non believers.

How would you suggest gay people protect themselves from extreme forms of Islam? Its no like they are bombing anyone to deserve the retribution that you seem to think the UK deserves.

Now you're being silly. Nowhere have I said the UK deserves retribution, I've repeatedly said we shouldn't be surprised that others might feel that it's valid to take their grievances to us because of our policy of intervention. It certainly doesn't mean I agree with them but it is part of the tit for tat nature of violence in all its forms. For decades we've tried to influence other people's society with military intervention based on our values, we then shouldn't be surprised or take the moral high ground when they then try and do the same. This mess is of our own making and until we own up to it and take responsibility whilst mending our ways, then the carnage will continue both here and abroad. Violence breeds violence and the cycle needs to be broken not intensified.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Now you're being silly. Nowhere have I said the UK deserves retribution, I've repeatedly said we shouldn't be surprised that others might feel that it's valid to take their grievances to us because of our policy of intervention. It certainly doesn't mean I agree with them but it is part of the tit for tat nature of violence in all its forms. For decades we've tried to influence other people's society with military intervention based on our values, we then shouldn't be surprised or take the moral high ground when they then try and do the same. This mess is of our own making and until we own up to it and take responsibility whilst mending our ways, then the carnage will continue both here and abroad. Violence breeds violence and the cycle needs to be broken not intensified.

I think the carnage in that part of ghe world long pre-dates the brits, and will continue long after the british influence is but a distant memory.

I sort of agree about just leaving them to it, but then you see heart breaking stories lile the Kurds in iraq, or the yazidis, and i think we should intervene.

Also, western society is built on oil, amd so the reality is that it will always be a factor - our way of life ( probably less so now) was dependant on us having some degree of control over that resource.

And of course the reason we were so intimately involved is because we helped dismantle the ottoman empire, an empire that had repeatedly threatened and tried to subjugate Europe.

The realpolitik is that it woyld be impossible for any world power not to be involved there.

[Slavers]

Now you're being silly. Nowhere have I said the UK deserves retribution, I've repeatedly said we shouldn't be surprised that others might feel that it's valid to take their grievances to us because of our policy of intervention. It certainly doesn't mean I agree with them but it is part of the tit for tat nature of violence in all its forms. For decades we've tried to influence other people's society with military intervention based on our values, we then shouldn't be surprised or take the moral high ground when they then try and do the same. This mess is of our own making and until we own up to it and take responsibility whilst mending our ways, then the carnage will continue both here and abroad. Violence breeds violence and the cycle needs to be broken not intensified.

What are your comments on how do we stop attacks on our gay community from Islamic Terrorists? There only crime is to be gay. What is your answer to that?

[easty]

What are your comments on how do we stop attacks on our gay community from Islamic Terrorists? There only crime is to be gay. What is your answer to that?

What's your answer to it?

[Slavers]

What's your answer to it?

I'd out law the ideology and stop immigration to the UK from the parts of the world where that ideology is commonly accepted as being the norm.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'd out law the ideology and stop immigration to the UK from the parts of the world where that ideology is commonly accepted as being the norm.

There's practical issues in that.

Chechnya, for example, has an anti-gay regime. Would you prevent anyone from there getting access to the UK? Even gay men and women? And, how would you determine whether they were being honest about their sexuality?

[easty]

There's practical issues in that.

Chechnya, for example, has an anti-gay regime. Would you prevent anyone from there getting access to the UK? Even gay men and women? And, how would you determine whether they were being honest about their sexuality?

Aye, a few.

[Slavers]

Aye, a few.

Do you honestly believe that if we stop confronting groups like the Islamic state that they will leave us alone?

[easty]

Do you honestly believe that if we stop confronting groups like the Islamic state that they will leave us alone?

No.

[Slavers]

No.

OK I agree this talk of we are bringing this all onto ourselves is a very easy tale to tell and is nonsense.

[Hibrandenburg]

What are your comments on how do we stop attacks on our gay community from Islamic Terrorists? There only crime is to be gay. What is your answer to that?

But it's not just from Islamic extremists our gay community is under attack from is it? I'll bet there's not a weekend goes by without attacks on the LGB community from some of our own homegrown homophobic imbeciles. The only answer can be education and tolerance towards that that is different be it race, peaceful religion or sexual orientation.

[easty]

OK I agree this talk of we are bringing this all onto ourselves is a very easy tale to tell and is nonsense.

It's not nonsense. It's not the only reason, but it's certainly a contributing factor.

[Slavers]

There's practical issues in that.

Chechnya, for example, has an anti-gay regime. Would you prevent anyone from there getting access to the UK? Even gay men and women? And, how would you determine whether they were being honest about their sexuality?

Its not easy I agree but we cannot allow extreme forms of Islam to grow even more throughout the UK and Europe. How would you suggest we stop it?

[Hibrandenburg]

Do you honestly believe that if we stop confronting groups like the Islamic state that they will leave us alone?

No, but killing more children won't make it go away either.

[Hibrandenburg]

It's not nonsense. It's not the only reason, but it's certainly a contributing factor.

:agree:

[Slavers]

No, but killing more children won't make it go away either.

I haven't said that it would, your being silly now.

[easty]

Its not easy I agree but we cannot allow extreme forms of Islam to grow even more throughout the UK and Europe. How would you suggest we stop it?

I'd rather it be through better cultural integration and better education, I appreciate that's not the popular opinion, and in light of what's happened this week it's easy to argue against it.

That'll never work for everyone though, and there will almost certainly always be extremists.

[Slavers]

It's not nonsense. It's not the only reason, but it's certainly a contributing factor.

I have agreed it is part of the problem but it is nonsense to state if we stop intervening in the middle east then it will solve the the problem of radical Islamic terrorism.

[easty]

I have agreed it is part of the problem but it is nonsense to state if we stop intervening in the middle east then it will solve the the problem of radical Islamic terrorism.

Yes and no. I strongly believe that if the West made a public decision to stop interfering in matters in the middle east there would be less incidents like Paris and Manchester.

I'm not saying that's what we should be doing though.

[Hibrandenburg]

I haven't said that it would, your being silly now.

Fair doos, but that is what many are now calling for. Any military answer to the terrorists will inevitably involve killing innocents and fueling the fires of extremism.

I don't claim to have the answer, I just know violence or lashing out against moderate Islam isn't the answer.

[steakbake]

Corbyn's speech was good. You can tell by the number of right wing commentators who are trying to misrepresent it and coming out with pish about him "blaming Britain".

[Hibrandenburg]

Corbyn's speech was good. You can tell by the number of right wing commentators who are trying to misrepresent it and coming out with pish about him "blaming Britain".

:agree:

[Slavers]

Fair doos, but that is what many are now calling for. Any military answer to the terrorists will inevitably involve killing innocents and fueling the fires of extremism.

I don't claim to have the answer, I just know violence or lashing out against moderate Islam isn't the answer.

I agree with you there now more than ever we need to get the.moderate Muslims onside and keep them onside and to the credit of the moderate Muslim community they are doing that and standing shoulder to shoulder with the victims of the attacks.

But that doesn't take away that the epicenter of Islam is Saudi Arabia where most of the extreme versions of Islam originate. I don't have the answers either it's a very tough nut to crack.

[JeMeSouviens]

What are your comments on how do we stop attacks on our gay community from Islamic Terrorists? There only crime is to be gay. What is your answer to that?

You're going to have to drum up some size of an army!

http://i.imgur.com/h5TJJBf.png

Edit (since the text is too small):

Orange - male homosexuality illegal
Red - all homosexuality illegal
Black - ditto + death penalty

[CropleyWasGod]

You're going to have to drum up some size of an army!

http://i.imgur.com/h5TJJBf.png

Edit (since the text is too small):

Orange - male homosexuality illegal
Red - all homosexuality illegal
Black - ditto + death penalty

Given that many of the orange, red and black countries on that map, particularly in sub-Saharan Africa, perceive themselves to be Christian, it would appear that radical Islam is not the only homophobe in this issue :cb Conversely, Nigeria is "green", as is the largest Islamic country in the world, Indonesia.

As a side note, the North African situation is interesting. Although sex between men is illegal, it's "normal" for teenage boys to greet each other with a kiss on the lips, and to walk around hand-in-hand. There's something both refreshing and ****ed-up about that.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I have agreed it is part of the problem but it is nonsense to state if we stop intervening in the middle east then it will solve the the problem of radical Islamic terrorism.

A wise man discusses the history. It's a long and complex series of events; a dangerous mix of politics, economics, religion and despair.


https://youtu.be/Gp5CbMarIo8

35:00 - "Everyone in the west is such a total hypocrite (and I must include myself in this, as I don't propose this either) that for them to even talk about questions of right or wrong is a disgrace".

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I cant recommend the c4 documentary, isis: a history of violence highly enough- it really is a good watch.

Rather bravely states that the prophet mohammed's favourite wife was 9 when married, and 13 when deflowered.

I think god maybe picked the wrong man to be a prophet...

[JeMeSouviens]

Summary of the House of Commons Foreign Affairs Select Committee report on intervention in Libya:


Libya: Examination of intervention and collapse and the UK's future policy options

Summary

In March 2011, the United Kingdom and France, with the support of the United States, led the international community to support an intervention in Libya to protect civilians from attacks by forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi. This policy was not informed by accurate intelligence. In particular, the Government failed to identify that the threat to civilians was overstated and that the rebels included a significant Islamist element. By the summer of 2011, the limited intervention to protect civilians had drifted into an opportunist policy of regime change. That policy was not underpinned by a strategy to support and shape post-Gaddafi Libya. The result was political and economic collapse, inter-militia and inter-tribal warfare, humanitarian and migrant crises, widespread human rights violations, the spread of Gaddafi regime weapons across the region and the growth of ISIL in North Africa. Through his decision making in the National Security Council, former Prime Minister David Cameron was ultimately responsible for the failure to develop a coherent Libya strategy.

After Iraq and Afghanistan, it's just inexcusably pish, no?

[CropleyWasGod]

I cant recommend the c4 documentary, isis: a history of violence highly enough- it really is a good watch.

Rather bravely states that the prophet mohammed's favourite wife was 9 when married, and 13 when deflowered.

I think god maybe picked the wrong man to be a prophet...

It's probably going to take this thread off on a whole new tangent, but I'm not sure we can judge Islam on that. We're talking about 1400 (?) years ago, when the world was different, and arguably more in sympathy with "natural" bodily issues than we are today. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the norm in Christian and Jewish society at the time.

Of course, the Islamophobes (and I'm not including you in this, of course) will point to something like that as an example of the barbarity/inhumanity/decadence of Muslim culture.

[JeMeSouviens]

It's probably going to take this thread off on a whole new tangent, but I'm not sure we can judge Islam on that. We're talking about 1400 (?) years ago, when the world was different, and arguably more in sympathy with "natural" bodily issues than we are today. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the norm in Christian and Jewish society at the time.

Of course, the Islamophobes (and I'm not including you in this, of course) will point to something like that as an example of the barbarity/inhumanity/decadence of Muslim culture.

:agree:

eg. Juliet of wherefore art thou fame was 13 and Shakey makes no issue out of her youth.

[Dinkydoo]

Its not easy I agree but we cannot allow extreme forms of Islam to grow even more throughout the UK and Europe. How would you suggest we stop it?
There's no easy solution here but a good place to start would be by not carrying out actions that are likely to radicalise more people. E.g. don't make it worse.

Every single piece of collateral damage - an accidental hospital bombing, civillian casualties...etc etc whether directly or indirectly caused by actions we have carried out, creates more groups of aggrieved people that are vulnerable to radicalisation.

We have a lot of control over that.

Let's start there.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

Actually, our (as in Western society's) record on age of consent is pretty stomach churning:

https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/09/09/age-of-consent-in-european-american-history/

[Hibrandenburg]

It's probably going to take this thread off on a whole new tangent, but I'm not sure we can judge Islam on that. We're talking about 1400 (?) years ago, when the world was different, and arguably more in sympathy with "natural" bodily issues than we are today. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the norm in Christian and Jewish society at the time.

Of course, the Islamophobes (and I'm not including you in this, of course) will point to something like that as an example of the barbarity/inhumanity/decadence of Muslim culture.

Age restriction on marriage is a relatively new concept. For most cultures the deciding factor was the onset of menstruation.

[CropleyWasGod]

Actually, our (as in Western society's) record on age of consent is pretty stomach churning:

https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/09/09/age-of-consent-in-european-american-history/

Indeed.

If Jerry Lee Lewis was a guide, then rock n roll must be the Devil's own music.

Oh, wait.....

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's probably going to take this thread off on a whole new tangent, but I'm not sure we can judge Islam on that. We're talking about 1400 (?) years ago, when the world was different, and arguably more in sympathy with "natural" bodily issues than we are today. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the norm in Christian and Jewish society at the time.

Of course, the Islamophobes (and I'm not including you in this, of course) will point to something like that as an example of the barbarity/inhumanity/decadence of Muslim culture.

I know, it just made me chuckle.

The reason its included in the doc is becausd that was an accepted truth for 1400 years or so, but apparently islamic scholars are revising it in line with western norms. He uses it an example of how islam is very insecure and threatened by the west. There was a serious point in there, it just appealed to my childish side in a life of brian sort of way.

[CropleyWasGod]

I know, it just made me chuckle.

The reason its included in the doc is becausd that was an accepted truth for 1400 years or so, but apparently islamic scholars are revising it in line with western norms. He uses it an example of how islam is very insecure and threatened by the west. There was a serious point in there, it just appealed to my childish side in a life of brian sort of way.

You're a very naughty boy.

[G B Young]

Summary of the House of Commons Foreign Affairs Select Committee report on intervention in Libya:

After Iraq and Afghanistan, it's just inexcusably pish, no?

Clearly its legacy has been a mess, but I do personally recall thinking there were more solid grounds for the Libya invasion and IIRC the coalition of nations involved amounted to around 20. I notice Nicola Sturgeon has today maintained her party's belief that it was the right move:

Sturgeon: Terrorists must not use foreign policy as an excuse
The SNP leader, Nicola Sturgeon, has said that she stands by her party's support for UK military action in Libya in 2011.
She was speaking after Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn linked British military interventions abroad with the terrorist threat at home and said the war on terror was not working.
Ms Sturgeon - visiting Scottish Gas apprentices in Edinburgh - said it was right that we should debate foreign policy but that terrorists must not be allowed to use it as an excuse for atrocities like the Manchester attack.

Back on the subject of the attack, it is at least good to see that the police appear to making genuine progress in breaking up this particular network:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40056102

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You're a very naughty boy.

I thought i was the messiah...?!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Clearly its legacy has been a mess, but I do personally recall thinking there were more solid grounds for the Libya invasion and IIRC the coalition of nations involved amounted to around 20. I notice Nicola Sturgeon has today maintained her party's belief that it was the right move:

Sturgeon: Terrorists must not use foreign policy as an excuse
The SNP leader, Nicola Sturgeon, has said that she stands by her party's support for UK military action in Libya in 2011.
She was speaking after Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn linked British military interventions abroad with the terrorist threat at home and said the war on terror was not working.
Ms Sturgeon - visiting Scottish Gas apprentices in Edinburgh - said it was right that we should debate foreign policy but that terrorists must not be allowed to use it as an excuse for atrocities like the Manchester attack.

Back on the subject of the attack, it is at least good to see that the police appear to making genuine progress in breaking up this particular network:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40056102

Good on her, well played Sturgeon!

[JeMeSouviens]

Clearly its legacy has been a mess, but I do personally recall thinking there were more solid grounds for the Libya invasion and IIRC the coalition of nations involved amounted to around 20. I notice Nicola Sturgeon has today maintained her party's belief that it was the right move:

Sturgeon: Terrorists must not use foreign policy as an excuse
The SNP leader, Nicola Sturgeon, has said that she stands by her party's support for UK military action in Libya in 2011.
She was speaking after Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn linked British military interventions abroad with the terrorist threat at home and said the war on terror was not working.
Ms Sturgeon - visiting Scottish Gas apprentices in Edinburgh - said it was right that we should debate foreign policy but that terrorists must not be allowed to use it as an excuse for atrocities like the Manchester attack.

Back on the subject of the attack, it is at least good to see that the police appear to making genuine progress in breaking up this particular network:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40056102

Yes, intervention may have had justification and might have had a positive outcome if there had been a coherent strategy. After Iraq and Afghanistan, surely to god we should have had that bit copper bottomed?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Interesting article here, suggesting western foreign policy is a useful excuse, and that western non-intervention (Bosnia, Syria) is ad likely to fuel them as intetvention does -

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/26/delusion-terror-attacks-just-about-foreign-policy

[Just Alf]

Interesting article here, suggesting western foreign policy is a useful excuse, and that western non-intervention (Bosnia, Syria) is ad likely to fuel them as intetvention does -

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/26/delusion-terror-attacks-just-about-foreign-policy

The world is indeed a nightmare... Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The world is indeed a nightmare... Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.

Yeah, i think it comes down to the islamic world being weak, amf resenting the fact that us godless, unbelieving westerners actually do far better than them and their backward ways. Our very existence is a threat to them and their worldview.

And for those hardline muslims who libe in the West, there must be a fair bit of internal struggle as they enjoy the fruits of our society, yet hate the basis of it, at the same time. There muat be a fair old internal struggle going on there.

[Smartie]

Yeah, i think it comes down to the islamic world being weak, amf resenting the fact that us godless, unbelieving westerners actually do far better than them and their backward ways. Our very existence is a threat to them and their worldview.

And for those hardline muslims who libe in the West, there must be a fair bit of internal struggle as they enjoy the fruits of our society, yet hate the basis of it, at the same time. There muat be a fair old internal struggle going on there.

Not sure I go along with much of this.

There are many "believers" of one sort or another who have managed to be perfectly successful and integrate their own beliefs with those of Western society, whether they are Christian, Muslim, Jewish or whichever religion you choose to highlight (FWIW I am not religious).

There are backward, ignorant fundamentalist forms of most religions and they seldom draw wealthy, successful, good looking and charming people towards them. They prey on the weak, the people who perceive themselves to be missing out on the fruits of our society.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Not sure I go along with much of this.

There are many "believers" of one sort or another who have managed to be perfectly successful and integrate their own beliefs with those of Western society, whether they are Christian, Muslim, Jewish or whichever religion you choose to highlight (FWIW I am not religious).

There are backward, ignorant fundamentalist forms of most religions and they seldom draw wealthy, successful, good looking and charming people towards them. They prey on the weak, the people who perceive themselves to be missing out on the fruits of our society.

Yeah fair points. I should have been more specific in that i meant the west was a threat to particuarly hard line muslims. If their entire doctrine is based on islam being superior to all else, amd muslims being superior to all other people, then it is easy to see how a weak islamic world is a threat to them, especially when the west, built largely by christians amd jews, has been streaking ahead for centuries now and becomig so powerful that it has an enormous influence over the islamic world. That the west has evolved into a generally secular society, wirh values so fundamentally at odds of those of doctrinaire political islam, only accentuates that threat even further.

Our very existence is an enormously powerful counter to their belief in the absolute superiority of islam, and therefore the entire basis of their beliefs, of their entire lives.

Added to the fact that radical islam is an aggressive and expansionist religion, that is now butting up against western societies and/or power at most of its 'borders'.

Of course there will be ofher reasons at play as well.

Also i disagree about your point about other believers adapting their beliefs to fit with western values. This is quite a fundamental point, in that chrstians and jews didnt habe to, as they are western society, they habe evolved with western society and so the two are intimately linked, one doesmt exist without the other. That is not true of islam, or certainly not to same extent, if at all.

People baulk at saying it, but i think islam (or radical islam) is backward, amd unenlightened in the most literal meaning. I also think some hard line christians and jews ade likewise, but the point is they are, in the West generally an extreme fringe, rafher than the mainstream as they are in much of the muslim world.

[Smartie]

Yeah fair points. I should have been more specific in that i meant the west was a threat to particuarly hard line muslims. If their entire doctrine is based on islam being superior to all else, amd muslims being superior to all other people, then it is easy to see how a weak islamic world is a threat to them, especially when the west, built largely by christians amd jews, has been streaking ahead for centuries now and becomig so powerful that it has an enormous influence over the islamic world. That the west has evolved into a generally secular society, wirh values so fundamentally at odds of those of doctrinaire political islam, only accentuates that threat even further.

Our very existence is an enormously powerful counter to their belief in the absolute superiority of islam, and therefore the entire basis of their beliefs, of their entire lives.

Added to the fact that radical islam is an aggressive and expansionist religion, that is now butting up against western societies and/or power at most of its 'borders'.

Of course there will be ofher reasons at play as well.

Also i disagree about your point about other believers adapting their beliefs to fit with western values. This is quite a fundamental point, in that chrstians and jews didnt habe to, as they are western society, they habe evolved with western society and so the two are intimately linked, one doesmt exist without the other. That is not true of islam, or certainly not to same extent, if at all.

People baulk at saying it, but i think islam (or radical islam) is backward, amd unenlightened in the most literal meaning. I also think some hard line christians and jews ade likewise, but the point is they are, in the West generally an extreme fringe, rafher than the mainstream as they are in much of the muslim world.


In their fundamental form, most religions are incompatible with modern, liberal Western life and values.

Most religions, including Islam, have been able to evolve and are perfectly compatible with modern life.

The form of Islam that ISIS preach, that Al Qaeda did and that nutters like that numpty that blew himself up last week follow are most certainly backward and IMO have no place in the modern world, in the Middle East or wherever.

Whether you believe it or not, they remain an extreme fringe of the Muslim faith and are not any more representative of the millions/ billions of Muslims worldwide who abhor that sort of act than the IRA, UDA or the Westboro baptist church nutters are of you or I.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

In their fundamental form, most religions are incompatible with modern, liberal Western life and values.

Most religions, including Islam, have been able to evolve and are perfectly compatible with modern life.

The form of Islam that ISIS preach, that Al Qaeda did and that nutters like that numpty that blew himself up last week follow are most certainly backward and IMO have no place in the modern world, in the Middle East or wherever.

Whether you believe it or not, they remain an extreme fringe of the Muslim faith and are not any more representative of the millions/ billions of Muslims worldwide who abhor that sort of act than the IRA, UDA or the Westboro baptist church nutters are of you or I.

Im not sure that last bit is actually true anymore. There are islamic theocracies in major countries, i cant think of any christian countries run according to westboro principles etc

Im not saying all muslims, but the extreme versions habe become/ are becoming more common imo.

I can think of afghanistan, iran, saudi, egypt for a short time until the coup. And elsewhere you have major extreme factions fighting for power - iraq, syria, phillipines, libya, egypt, lebanon, sudan, mali, india, pakistan, nigeria and also turkey where it is happening through the ballot box.

Im sure islam is capable of evolving to suit western values, but this is my point. To do so requires them to leave behind aome of the main tenets, traditions etc, and so the west is a threat to radical islam precisely because of that. They dont want them to evolve, because they are literalists.

[Smartie]

Im not sure that last bit is actually true anymore. There are islamic theocracies in major countries, i cant think of any christian countries run according to westboro principles etc

Im not saying all muslims, but the extreme versions habe become/ are becoming more common imo.

I can think of afghanistan, iran, saudi, egypt for a short time until the coup. And elsewhere you have major extreme factions fighting for power - iraq, syria, phillipines, libya, egypt, lebanon, sudan, mali, india, pakistan, nigeria and also turkey where it is happening through the ballot box.

Im sure islam is capable of evolving to suit western values, but this is my point. To do so requires them to leave behind aome of the main tenets, traditions etc, and so the west is a threat to radical islam precisely because of that. They dont want them to evolve, because they are literalists.

I think I (sort of) agree with you, but it all depends on how easy it is to separate radical Islam from the more moderate Islam practiced by many in the Western world.

Many countries have been caught up by the struggle between moderate and radical Islam, and that seems to be what is going on in most of the countries you mention. I don't think it is cut and dried that one form is generally preferred over the other, it is a contentious issue and has been forever.

I don't think Islam in it's more radical form is compatible with Western life, and as a result it is probably only practiced by a handful of people, if that, and not openly, whereas millions of moderate Muslims live amongst us and manage fine. Most people manage to get their head round the fact that if they are to live here then they have to give up certain aspects of their faith, such as polygamy and female genital mutilation.

[Ryan69]

I was reading an interesting article yesterday,that kind of debunks the suicide bomber going toto paradise thing.

Explosives generally contain, gelletine and Glycerine....which comes from Pigs.

So effectively the last thing that goes through their bodies is a part of a pig....meaning rejection from their so called Allah.

Bet they dont think of that when they cause these cowardly attacks.

[CropleyWasGod]

I was reading an interesting article yesterday,that kind of debunks the suicide bomber going toto paradise thing.

Explosives generally contain, gelletine and Glycerine....which comes from Pigs.

So effectively the last thing that goes through their bodies is a part of a pig....meaning rejection from their so called Allah.

Bet they dont think of that when they cause these cowardly attacks.

Where was this article?

[easty]

Where was this article?

Sounds like the sort of thing Tommy Robinson would write.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I think I (sort of) agree with you, but it all depends on how easy it is to separate radical Islam from the more moderate Islam practiced by many in the Western world.

Many countries have been caught up by the struggle between moderate and radical Islam, and that seems to be what is going on in most of the countries you mention. I don't think it is cut and dried that one form is generally preferred over the other, it is a contentious issue and has been forever.

I don't think Islam in it's more radical form is compatible with Western life, and as a result it is probably only practiced by a handful of people, if that, and not openly, whereas millions of moderate Muslims live amongst us and manage fine. Most people manage to get their head round the fact that if they are to live here then they have to give up certain aspects of their faith, such as polygamy and female genital mutilation.

Yeah agreed. Its the rising trend that is concerning. Id also say that too many muslim communities in the west dont integrate, thus making it easier for radicals to gain ground, bit integration is probably a whole different debate.

One thing i dont see mentioned often is the general susceptibility that young men habe to radical ideas (of amy sort) - im sure there is some psychological / biologixical name, but i remembet going through a rebellious stage in my late teens/ early twenties where i got into more radical politics etc and just felt a bit discontented with the world. At this stage, most young men would be pretty easy prey for radicals.

[Smartie]

Yeah agreed. Its the rising trend that is concerning. Id also say that too many muslim communities in the west dont integrate, thus making it easier for radicals to gain ground, bit integration is probably a whole different debate.

One thing i dont see mentioned often is the general susceptibility that young men habe to radical ideas (of amy sort) - im sure there is some psychological / biologixical name, but i remembet going through a rebellious stage in my late teens/ early twenties where i got into more radical politics etc and just felt a bit discontented with the world. At this stage, most young men would be pretty easy prey for radicals.

The rising trend is concerning, although I'd put it down to various factors -

The fact that we went in and knocked out baddies like Saddam Hussein and Col Gaddafi and created power vacuums. Ruthless, barbaric, autocratic dictators they may have been, they also managed to just about keep the fanatics in check. We either had no plan or were ridiculously naive about what might happen in their countries once they were gone. The influence of the radicals has grown since then.

Modern 24 hour news coverage. These groups have always existed, we've not always given them as much oxygen of publicity within our media.



I agree about the susceptibility of young men, but I think this needs tackled on several fronts. Poverty and inequality don't help (take your pick of the Tories, SNP or Labour threads for your solution to the poverty problem we have in this country). Young men feeling a bit disillusioned with the world are vulnerable people - the isolation that affects young, poor, Muslim men is a big problem as they are ripe for radicalisation.

The friends I have who are Muslim aren't going to give up on their big cars, their businesses, their education, their jobs, their positions in the community, their friends or their families to blow themselves up any time soon, in spite of what Katie Hopkins might think.