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Captain Trips
08-05-2017, 08:19 PM
Cannot believe he was signed for £5.5m with his record over last few seasons.

This pisses me right off when we get ripped right off up here. I would have JC everytime.

hibs#1
08-05-2017, 08:24 PM
He's English though so automatically that adds to the price.and in the eyes of the English teams Cummings is Scottish so that takes away from the price.

Andy74
08-05-2017, 08:27 PM
Cannot believe he was signed for £5.5m with his record over last few seasons.

This pisses me right off when we get ripped right off up here. I would have JC everytime.

He's scored goals for them before. Maybe sometime Cummings can score goals for the likes of Middlesbrough. At that point maybe he'd be worth that cash to someone.

As well as record clubs pay for what they assess the quality and potential of the player might be. Bamford has been very highly rated for a wee while.

HIBERNIAN-0762
08-05-2017, 08:28 PM
Who's Patrick Bamford? :confused:

Captain Trips
08-05-2017, 08:33 PM
He's scored goals for them before. Maybe sometime Cummings can score goals for the likes of Middlesbrough. At that point maybe he'd be worth that cash to someone.

As well as record clubs pay for what they assess the quality and potential of the player might be. Bamford has been very highly rated for a wee while.

He has been on loan at 3 clubs since first spell at Boro and it appears he never scored once nor since his move on a permanent deal. Just think its a pile of pish.

Hibs1972
08-05-2017, 08:53 PM
Who's Patrick Bamford? :confused:
Was thinking that myself!!:confused::confused:

Unseen work
08-05-2017, 08:57 PM
To be fair to him, less than 2 years ago he scored 19 goals and got player of the season in the English championship.

So 5.5 in England isn't too bad.

i would say he is quite a bit ahead of Cummings and would score a lot in Scotland.


Addmittedly he has been poor since then.

Captain Trips
08-05-2017, 09:04 PM
Just a heads up incase the newly relegated Boro are planning on looking up here for anyone. I will totally disagree on better than Cummings from what I have seen of him in past.

brianmc
08-05-2017, 09:04 PM
Was thinking that myself!!:confused::confused:

Me tae! If Wiki is to be believed he's an English striker at Middlesbrough who hasn't scored a goal in the last 2 years...

Unseen work
08-05-2017, 09:08 PM
Just a heads up incase the newly relegated Boro are planning on looking up here for anyone. I will totally disagree on better than Cummings from what I have seen of him in past.

You genuinely think Cummings is better than Bamford?

Andy74
08-05-2017, 09:14 PM
Just a heads up incase the newly relegated Boro are planning on looking up here for anyone. I will totally disagree on better than Cummings from what I have seen of him in past.

Bamford was Championship player of the year when he played for them. His loans since then have been short term. Chelsea also recalled him. His loans have been in the EPL.

Cummings might play in the Championship one day. He might not. If he ever wins Championship player of the year I'd be surprised. If and when he does and maybe gets some playing time in the EPL then comparisons can start to be made.

brog
08-05-2017, 09:14 PM
You genuinely think Cummings is better than Bamford?

I've seen both live. Trust me JC has at least as much potential as Bamford. A duck is not a swan just because it's in Engerlund!

jgl07
08-05-2017, 09:22 PM
Me tae! If Wiki is to be believed he's an English striker at Middlesbrough who hasn't scored a goal in the last 2 years...

That's funny, it's telling me that he has scored 123 goals in the last five years?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Bamford

Andy74
08-05-2017, 09:23 PM
I've seen both live. Trust me JC has at least as much potential as Bamford. A duck is not a swan just because it's in Engerlund!

Perhaps they could have saved themselves £3 or £4 million pounds then? Doesn't sound from the chat below that they would quite agree with you.



Middlesbrough boss Steve Agnew has revealed Patrick Bamford has barely featured over the last month after picking up a niggling injury.

The former Chelsea forward, who arrived for £6m in January, has been training through the pain barrier as he battles with a hernia problem.


His last Boro outing came during an impressive seven-minute cameo against Burnley on April 8, but despite catching the eye, he has not made a single appearance since.

Agnew admits Bamford has endured a frustrating few years since his scintillating 2014/15 on loan at Boro, but says the 23-year-old is in contention to feature against former club Chelsea at Stamford Bridge on Monday.


"I think any young player who goes to a big, big club like Chelsea and never gets the opportunity to get a run of games, yes - he's a bit frustrated (with how it worked out),"

"I think probably Patrick's biggest frustrations are after leaving here, having scored all those goals in the Championship, he never got the opportunity to play regularly at the teams he went on loan to.

"That's the thing that we have to take into consideration and get him going again.

"I've had several chats with Patrick and he missed football for 18 months. It does take a long time to catch up but he did come on against Burnley and caused a problem.


"He has trained really well, he has had a bit of a niggle - it's his groin or a potential hernia problem, and that has been an issue.

"But over the last few days he's been terrific in training. I do think Patrick is definitely a big player for the future of this football club."

Marco G
08-05-2017, 09:23 PM
Bamford was Championship player of the year when he played for them. His loans since then have been short term. Chelsea also recalled him. His loans have been in the EPL.

Cummings might play in the Championship one day. He might not. If he ever wins Championship player of the year I'd be surprised. If and when he does and maybe gets some playing time in the EPL then comparisons can start to be made.
Point is, JC is scoring goals, plenty, year on year and PB is not. So maybe comparisons don't mean a lot, but goals do?

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Andy74
08-05-2017, 09:26 PM
Point is, JC is scoring goals, plenty, year on year and PB is not. So maybe comparisons don't mean a lot, but goals do?

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Goals in our championship against goals scored in their championship? Playing time in EPL.

See above, he has been injured and in and out of things with pretty big teams.

I'm sorry, I'm not buying the comparisons in any way. Cummings is miles away from that sort of comparison being a serious one just now.

frazeHFC
08-05-2017, 09:28 PM
Point is, JC is scoring goals, plenty, year on year and PB is not. So maybe comparisons don't mean a lot, but goals do?

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Quite a difference in quality between playing in the English Championship and the Scottish Championship.

Bamford certainly hasn't been living up to the media hype that has surrounded him, but I'd imagine he's better than Cummings though.

Unseen work
08-05-2017, 09:28 PM
Point is, JC is scoring goals, plenty, year on year and PB is not. So maybe comparisons don't mean a lot, but goals do?

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Bamford has scored a lot of goals at a much higher level, earned a lot of good moves and was highly regarded by England and Chelsea.

JC has a lot of potential, but he's not as good as Bamford.

Once JC tests himself in the English a championship we can compare them

Marco G
08-05-2017, 09:34 PM
Bamford has scored a lot of goals at a much higher level, earned a lot of good moves and was highly regarded by England and Chelsea.

JC has a lot of potential, but he's not as good as Bamford.

Once JC tests himself in the English a championship we can compare them
Good grief, you are talking about a guy who has hardly played for 18 months, and whose manager thinks he might become a good player!

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Marco G
08-05-2017, 09:36 PM
Goals in our championship against goals scored in their championship? Playing time in EPL.

See above, he has been injured and in and out of things with pretty big teams.

I'm sorry, I'm not buying the comparisons in any way. Cummings is miles away from that sort of comparison being a serious one just now.
See my reply to the same sort of response.

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Unseen work
08-05-2017, 09:38 PM
Good grief, you are talking about a guy who has hardly played for 18 months, and whose manager thinks he might become a good player!

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Because of injuries and playing in the premier league.

doesnt take away the fact what he has achieved compared to JC yet, good argument tho..

Marco G
08-05-2017, 09:38 PM
Quite a difference in quality between playing in the English Championship and the Scottish Championship.

Bamford certainly hasn't been living up to the media hype that has surrounded him, but I'd imagine he's better than Cummings though.
See my reply to the same sort of response. Anyway puzzled why you all underestimate how good JC can be.

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Captain Trips
08-05-2017, 09:40 PM
JC and SJM to name 2 do not need to have played at a higher level to be better than players already playing at a higher level.

JC and SJM are better than lots of players that have gone for high fees IMO anyway.

Andy74
08-05-2017, 09:40 PM
Good grief, you are talking about a guy who has hardly played for 18 months, and whose manager thinks he might become a good player!

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His manager thinks he can be a big player for them. He's already been a good player for them. More than that actually. At a higher level than we are.

jgl07
08-05-2017, 09:41 PM
Point is, JC is scoring goals, plenty, year on year and PB is not. So maybe comparisons don't mean a lot, but goals do?

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Except that Bamford has scored 123 goals over a period when Cummings has scored 55.

This thread is very tedious.

Andy74
08-05-2017, 09:42 PM
JC and SJM to name 2 do not need to have played at a higher level to be better than players already playing at a higher level.

JC and SJM are better than lots of players that have gone for high fees IMO anyway.

Yes but they do actually need to be better players than the ones we are discussing. JC is not better than Bamford and taking all the hypothetical stuff out of it that's all there is to it just now.

Captain Trips
08-05-2017, 09:44 PM
His manager thinks he can be a big player for them. He's already been a good player for them. More than that actually. At a higher level than we are.

But for me that playing at a higher level should not be a default he is better. That argument therefore could suggest then for every player that plays at a higher level than ours none of our players can be better than any Championship player at any club?

BoomtownHibees
08-05-2017, 09:46 PM
That's funny, it's telling me that he has scored 123 goals in the last five years?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Bamford

It's telling me he's made 123 appearences in that time, not 123 goals

Captain Trips
08-05-2017, 09:46 PM
Yes but they do actually need to be better players than the ones we are discussing. JC is not better than Bamford and taking all the hypothetical stuff out of it that's all there is to it just now.

I think he is better than Bamford and quite a few others actually as of now without kicking a ball in EPL or Championship JC is better than a fair few.

Marco G
08-05-2017, 09:47 PM
Except that Bamford has scored 123 goals over a period when Cummings has scored 55.

This thread is very tedious.
Guff. Bamford has scored 43 goals in his whole career. Where are you getting your info from, before it gets too tedious[emoji3]

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Captain Trips
08-05-2017, 09:48 PM
Yes but they do actually need to be better players than the ones we are discussing. JC is not better than Bamford and taking all the hypothetical stuff out of it that's all there is to it just now.

Are you talking about what you have seen of both players or just the fact he plays at higher level so automatically makes him better?

brianmc
08-05-2017, 09:49 PM
That's funny, it's telling me that he has scored 123 goals in the last five years?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Bamford

Right, you've got me beat.
Where are you getting that info?
As far as I can make out he last scored a club goal 2 years ago.


Ahhhhh, I think I understand!! You're counting appearances NOT goals.

Andy74
08-05-2017, 09:52 PM
But for me that playing at a higher level should not be a default he is better. That argument therefore could suggest then for every player that plays at a higher level than ours none of our players can be better than any Championship player at any club?

Rubbish. I'm talking about the fact he's a better player due to the fact he is.

Playing at a higher level and winning player of the year just backs that up but currently he just is a better player.

If Middlesbrough agreed with you they could have saved a few quid.

Captain Trips
08-05-2017, 09:55 PM
Rubbish. I'm talking about the fact he's a better player due to the fact he is.

Playing at a higher level and winning player of the year just backs that up but currently he just is a better player.

If Middlesbrough agreed with you they could have saved a few quid.

Thats your opinion and not an actual fact. Boro do not need to agree with me in anyway they sign who they sign. There are lots of players better than JC they possibly could have signed also.

tamig
08-05-2017, 09:55 PM
Except that Bamford has scored 123 goals over a period when Cummings has scored 55.

This thread is very tedious.

Where are you getting 123 goals from? He's scored nowhere near that. I did like him in his first spell at Boro when he had a very productive season.

Unseen work
08-05-2017, 09:55 PM
Bamford has scored 48 league goals in his career.

Like most have said he has barely kicked a ball in the past 18 months owing to injuries etc etc.

Imagine Cummings got a move to England and barely played for 18 months and then we got linked with him, how many folk would be moaning? I would suggest none

Bamford has played at a high level and is only 23 years old, he has had a lot of clubs after him and is highly rated.

Cummings has done brilliantly for us in the Scottish championship and has a lot of potential, he deserves a lot of credit, a move to England will see how good he is.

But for me Bamford is a very good player and a fair bit ahead of JC, he is the sort you can see Celtic signing imo.

Any player that wins English championship player of the year has real quality and to try dismiss that is ridiculous

brianmc
08-05-2017, 09:55 PM
Except that Bamford has scored 123 goals over a period when Cummings has scored 55.

This thread is very tedious.

Ooft! Lol 🤔

Andy74
08-05-2017, 10:03 PM
Thats your opinion and not an actual fact. Boro do not need to agree with me in anyway they sign who they sign. There are lots of players better than JC they possibly could have signed also.

It's not just my opinion. When JC wins Championship player of the year, signs for Chelsea or someone pays £6m for him then there might be some scope to reach different opinions.

As it stands it's a fairly ridiculous discussion to have wasted my time on!

Captain Trips
08-05-2017, 10:18 PM
It's not just my opinion. When JC wins Championship player of the year, signs for Chelsea or someone pays £6m for him then there might be some scope to reach different opinions.

As it stands it's a fairly ridiculous discussion to have wasted my time on!

All of the above does not make him a better player. I think he is better than Stephen Fletcher at this point and Fletcher did ok down there not amazing but ok. It is your opinion though still not a fact. Being sold for £6m and being player of the year 2 years ago still as of today does not make him any better or indeed worse.

He doesn't need to sign for Chelsea or go for 6m either. What has signing for Chelsea got to do with it? Islam Feruz signed for Chelsea.

You think Bamford is a better forward based on his play then thats fine. Just signing for a club or being highly rated 2yrs ago does not simply make him better.

To use he signed for Chelsea as a point IMO is ridiculous, lots of big clubs sign players who do not make it. He never even played for Chelsea.

Bamford is better because he is better finisher? More pace? better reader of game? Better at assists? Better positional sense? Can use head better? Any other attributes? Being better at any of these be it 1,2 or all make Bamford better not signing for Chelsea.

Allant1981
09-05-2017, 04:31 AM
Except that Bamford has scored 123 goals over a period when Cummings has scored 55.

This thread is very tedious.

bamford has not scored that many goals

Brightside
09-05-2017, 06:48 AM
You genuinely think Cummings is better than Bamford?

I think this is where we lose the plot up in Scotland. Bamford is playing at a level way above Scottish football. Our game is very poor. To say Cummings is better than Bamford is nonsense.

SirDavidsNapper
09-05-2017, 07:25 AM
I didn't know who Bamford was until I read this thread

Captain Trips
09-05-2017, 07:26 AM
I think this is where we lose the plot up in Scotland. Bamford is playing at a level way above Scottish football. Our game is very poor. To say Cummings is better than Bamford is nonsense.

Plot not lost. There are players up here better than some down south who have went for millions and play at bigger clubs. JC and SJM are but 2.

Brightside
09-05-2017, 07:47 AM
Plot not lost. There are players up here better than some down south who have went for millions and play at bigger clubs. JC and SJM are but 2.

JC and SJM play in a lower league in Scotland. They don't play for bigger clubs than Bamford. Do think otherwise is madness.

Captain Trips
09-05-2017, 07:56 AM
JC and SJM play in a lower league in Scotland. They don't play for bigger clubs than Bamford. Do think otherwise is madness.

Not at all, you are just sweepingly saying just playing for a bigger club automatically means that players are better. That is utter nonsense. If you think he or others are better fine just being a boro player or Sunderland player or Leeds player does not make you better than others playing below.

So is every midfielder that plays in Championship for a bigger club than ours all better than SJM? Every forward better than JC? Not once have you mentioned ability just he played for big clubs so must be better.

Brightside
09-05-2017, 08:14 AM
Not at all, you are just sweepingly saying just playing for a bigger club automatically means that players are better. That is utter nonsense. If you think he or others are better fine just being a boro player or Sunderland player or Leeds player does not make you better than others playing below.

So is every midfielder that plays in Championship for a bigger club than ours all better than SJM? Every forward better than JC? Not once have you mentioned ability just he played for big clubs so must be better.

Both are playing lower level football at the moment. I do actually think that both could potentially do a job in the English championship but they are completely unproven. Especially based on recent football. The English championship is miles better technically than the Scottish.
Right now Patrick Bamford is a better all round player than Jason Cummings by some distance.

Unseen work
09-05-2017, 08:17 AM
Jason Cummings is actually a better player than Batshuyai

John Mcginn is better than Zidane

Fyvie is better than Scholes

18Hibee75
09-05-2017, 08:21 AM
Who's Patrick Bamford? :confused:
Some over hyped English player who was a failure at Chelsea and crystal Palace and decent for a few months for Middlesbrough but then turned into a failure for them too. Pretty sure he was very very smart and had a place at harvard university, shouldve probably stuck to that...

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Captain Trips
09-05-2017, 08:21 AM
We can go around all day but IMO both JC and SJM are as good and better than lots of players whom have gone for lots of money.

Yes clubs down South will see the standard here and base fees accordingly and Hibs will accept based on their criteria.

For me both are £5m+ players all day long but I know we will not see that.

That is the only thing for me I have ever thought well done Hearts, the fee they got for Craig Gordon was totally fair and right.

Allant1981
09-05-2017, 08:22 AM
Both are playing lower level football at the moment. I do actually think that both could potentially do a job in the English championship but they are completely unproven. Especially based on recent football. The English championship is miles better technically than the Scottish.
Right now Patrick Bamford is a better all round player than Jason Cummings by some distance.

might be a better all round player but is he a better goal scorer? obviously we wont know until cummings moves up a level but bamford is no where near as good as he was hyped up by the english media to be

since90plustwo
09-05-2017, 08:23 AM
JC is a good player but remember he has played alot of games against part time opposition. He isnt playing at the highest level in this country so its crazy to be comparing him against a guy whos won championship player of the year. Granted hes not played well for the last couple of years but JC is not at that level unless he can prove otherwise. If he was at that level prem teams would be all over him.

Captain Trips
09-05-2017, 08:29 AM
JC is a good player but remember he has played alot of games against part time opposition. He isnt playing at the highest level in this country so its crazy to be comparing him against a guy whos won championship player of the year. Granted hes not played well for the last couple of years but JC is not at that level unless he can prove otherwise. If he was at that level prem teams would be all over him.

You seem to be basing your thoughts on who he plays for and a 2yr old reward rather than his ability. I can see regardless of opposition JC is an excellent player as is SJM. I have seem a good bit of both and JC IMO is a better player regardless of playing for Boro and a player award.

Thecat23
09-05-2017, 08:29 AM
JC has improved hugely past two years. But come on he's a long way to go yet just like Bamform who I think is a better player as it stands!

Peevemor
09-05-2017, 08:33 AM
JC is a good player but remember he has played alot of games against part time opposition. He isnt playing at the highest level in this country so its crazy to be comparing him against a guy whos won championship player of the year. Granted hes not played well for the last couple of years but JC is not at that level unless he can prove otherwise. If he was at that level prem teams would be all over him.

A lot?

JDHibs
09-05-2017, 08:33 AM
People need to take the green tinted glasses off.

Bamford plays at a much higher level than what Cummings has in his career. Scoring 19 goals in the championship down south makes him very valuable. Scoring 19 goals against teams like Dumbarton, Ayr, QoS and Dunfermline not so much.

Ridiculous to suggest that Cummings is anywhere near the level of Bamford. Even more ridiculous to compare their goalscoring exploits given the massive gulf in opponent. Cummings is a good player and may do well down south, but may also come back up after 2 seaspns and have done nothing, like many other youngsters who have went down south after impressing up here, such as Allan, looked like Messi up here, cant even get a game for a relegated championship team.

Captain Trips
09-05-2017, 08:42 AM
People need to take the green tinted glasses off.

Bamford plays at a much higher level than what Cummings has in his career. Scoring 19 goals in the championship down south makes him very valuable. Scoring 19 goals against teams like Dumbarton, Ayr, QoS and Dunfermline not so much.

Ridiculous to suggest that Cummings is anywhere near the level of Bamford. Even more ridiculous to compare their goalscoring exploits given the massive gulf in opponent. Cummings is a good player and may do well down south, but may also come back up after 2 seaspns and have done nothing, like many other youngsters who have went down south after impressing up here, such as Allan, looked like Messi up here, cant even get a game for a relegated championship team.

Well I am comparing and I think JC is better than him. JC is not defined by me by the league he is in he is defined in what I believe he is capable of as of now. As of now I believe more than able to score in Championship.

Unseen work
13-05-2017, 10:20 PM
Started today and scored a goal for Middlesbrough.

Captain Trips
13-05-2017, 10:39 PM
Started today and scored a goal for Middlesbrough.

Good for him, he is a forward I expect him to score. Lots of players not as good as JC scored today lots of players not as good as Bamford scored today also.

Andy74
13-05-2017, 10:50 PM
This thread doesn't get any less hilarious.

IF Cummings ever scores in the EPL or wins player of the year in the Championship then he could consider himself to have had a great career.

Both those things in reality are a few years away from Cummings, if they happen at all.

Bamford has done those things already and there's some disappointment that due to injury he hasn't achieved much more.

To say with a straight face that Cummings is currently a better player is mental.

Captain Trips
13-05-2017, 10:54 PM
This thread doesn't get any less hilarious.

IF Cummings ever scores in the EPL or wins player of the year in the Championship then he could consider himself to have had a great career.

Both those things in reality are a few years away from Cummings, if they happen at all.

Bamford has done those things already and there's some disappointment that due to injury he hasn't achieved much more.

To say with a straight face that Cummings is currently a better player is mental.

Face is straight add to that he is currently a better player than a fair few players who have been sold for millions.

Hilarious if you like its totally subjective and not a fact on either side so I am not wrong and neither are you.

CapitalGreen
13-05-2017, 11:35 PM
This thread doesn't get any less hilarious.

IF Cummings ever scores in the EPL or wins player of the year in the Championship then he could consider himself to have had a great career.

Both those things in reality are a few years away from Cummings, if they happen at all.

Bamford has done those things already and there's some disappointment that due to injury he hasn't achieved much more.

To say with a straight face that Cummings is currently a better player is mental.

I don't think Cummings is a better player than Bamford but the amount of time you invest in dismissing Cummings talent is weird IMO.

IIRC you wanted us to sell him last summer. Do you still stand by that opinion or do you admit that you were wrong and we were correct to hold onto him this season?

Forza Fred
14-05-2017, 01:08 AM
I've seen both live. Trust me JC has at least as much potential as Bamford. A duck is not a swan just because it's in Engerlund!

Very philosophical Brian.

I agree, and remember too

"It is decreed that the seagulls, will have no need for sandals"

SanFranHibs
14-05-2017, 03:00 AM
Except that Bamford has scored 123 goals over a period when Cummings has scored 55.

This thread is very tedious.

He has?

Not what I am reading. not even 50 league goals. However, maybe he is better because he is not scoring at a higher level?

Sorry you are finding it tedious and thanks for the wonderfully entertaining post you added.

brog
14-05-2017, 07:19 AM
There's an awful lot of opinions on here which are being stated as FACTS. :wink: Some facts only. 2-3 years ago PB was a highly regarded young talent who scored a decent amount of goals in one season at English Championship level. Since then, for various reasons, including injury, he has underperformed scoring his 1st goal in 25 months, a deflection I believe, yesterday. I saw PB, briefly in the last 2 years & while you could see he had ability he was largely anonymous. I can't say much on this board but I know at that particular club they had zero interest in extending his loan period. We all know about JC, he's unproven at a higher level but has raw talent & is a natural goal scorer. I agree with the poster who says he could see Bamford going to Celtc. I agree & I believe he would be a success. However if you put JC in that current Celtc team does anyone doubt he would score plenty goals? I do find it strange however that on a Hibs board there are so many posters who seem keen to knock one of our own players but defend the value & reputation of a player they have almost certainly never seen.

Andy74
14-05-2017, 08:40 AM
I don't think Cummings is a better player than Bamford but the amount of time you invest in dismissing Cummings talent is weird IMO.

IIRC you wanted us to sell him last summer. Do you still stand by that opinion or do you admit that you were wrong and we were correct to hold onto him this season?

There's a lot wrong in that post.

Saying a very highly rated player who is playing in the EPL, who has already scored goals and won Championship player of the season and has gone for £7m to a club who think he will be a big player for them is better than Jason Cummings is not the same as dismissing his talent.

It's the type of conclusion from a discussion my 10 year old daughter would make.

No I didn't want us to sell Cummings last year. Again you are really understanding some of the discussion if that was your conclusion.

What I did say was that there comes a point in an offer when you can do more for the team, and in the longer term, by taking money and reinvesting it, whilst getting the same end result this season.

I think at the time that I'd said if we could have sold Cummings and brought in some of the players we were looking at or could have got at the time like Mallan, Henderson and Dobbie, we could have had a better squad overall. Those are just examples.

That's not the same as saying I would actively have wanted to sell him, which I wouldn't have.

cmcd
14-05-2017, 08:47 AM
See my reply to the same sort of response. Anyway puzzled why you all underestimate how good JC can be.

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JC is miles away from being the finished article.

Captain Trips
14-05-2017, 08:52 AM
There's a lot wrong in that post.

Saying a very highly rated player who is playing in the EPL, who has already scored goals and won Championship player of the season and has gone for £7m to a club who think he will be a big player for them is better than Jason Cummings is not the same as dismissing his talent add to that these awards and goals were 2yrs ago since then nothing.

It's the type of conclusion from a discussion my 10 year old daughter would make.

No I didn't want us to sell Cummings last year. Again you are really understanding some of the discussion if that was your conclusion.

What I did say was that there comes a point in an offer when you can do more for the team, and in the longer term, by taking money and reinvesting it, whilst getting the same end result this season.

I think at the time that I'd said if we could have sold Cummings and brought in some of the players we were looking at or could have got at the time like Mallan, Henderson and Dobbie, we could have had a better squad overall. Those are just examples.

That's not the same as saying I would actively have wanted to sell him, which I wouldn't have.

No Andy have you watched PB as often as me? What a 10 year old might do is just decide a guy got an award 2yrs ago and plays for a big club automatically makes him better.

Is Feruz better tgan SJM? Played for bigger clubs. JC and SJM and others at other clubs that I have seen are better than players who have went for more.

I think JC is a better player based on ability not status of club playing for. Joe Garner won the same Award in same season as PB in the league below at Preston.

JC being better than someone doesn't make that player crap. All you have done is mention an award and a fee nothing about the actual players ability. Lots of players are sold for millions and millions that alone does not make them better.

matty_f
14-05-2017, 10:49 AM
I didn't know who Bamford was until I read this thread

Same here!

oldbutdim
14-05-2017, 10:51 AM
Nor me.

neil7908
14-05-2017, 11:00 AM
Strange thread - it is silly season after all

Baader
14-05-2017, 11:19 AM
Except that Bamford has scored 123 goals over a period when Cummings has scored 55.

This thread is very tedious.

He hasn't. Bamford isn't even close to those figures. Cummings has scored goals more to date.

Scouse Hibee
14-05-2017, 11:24 AM
Never heard of Bamford or seen him play. I have no idea of his quality compared to Cummings other than using his current club status,stats and other people's opinions or the history of his value in transfers.

Pretty sure that is how most of us come to conclusion of so many players we have never seen so what's so different here?

Andy74
14-05-2017, 11:35 AM
He hasn't. Bamford isn't even close to those figures. Cummings has scored goals more to date.

Which is lovely if we are just talking about who has scored more goals for their respective teams, which we aren't. The original point of this thread seemed to be suggesting Cummings should be valued in the same way as Bamford.

In assuming by using the goals argument.

It gets you the wrong answer though.

His career might have stalled slightly but check out the goals ratio at MK Dons, Derby, Middlesbrough etc previously and the fact he's been thought well enough of to have been bought by Chelsea, for £7m for Middlesbrough, won Championship player of the year and represented England up to under 21 level.

Cummings might reach those figures at that level if he develops. Bamford has already done all that.

Someone mentioned Celtic earlier buying him. Would Celtic be able to pay the £10m or so he would cost? Middlesbrough just bought him and rate him as a future star for them.

If he was to come to Celtic he'd be one of the best if not the best player in Scotland.

Seriously, it's not just about club or level, he's just a better player than Cummings. The only argument I've seen against that is just pure goals scored which means nothing given the disparity in where these two have been playing their football.

brog
14-05-2017, 11:46 AM
Never heard of Bamford or seen him play. I have no idea of his quality compared to Cummings other than using his current club status,stats and other people's opinions or the history of his value in transfers.

Pretty sure that is how most of us come to conclusion of so many players we have never seen so what's so different here?

I pretty much agree with you but here's a genuine question for you (& anyone) My mates are Charlton fans & are a bit excited that Bournemouth may be buying Joe Gomez from you guys for £10m. Charlton are due a sell on fee having sold him to Liverpool for £3m a year or so ago. He's only played 3 cup games for Liverpool. What has he done by not playing to increase his value 3fold & is he now a great player, worth 5 X JC because someone may pay £10m for him?

Scouse Hibee
14-05-2017, 11:53 AM
I pretty much agree with you but here's a genuine question for you (& anyone) My mates are Charlton fans & are a bit excited that Bournemouth may be buying Joe Gomez from you guys for £10m. Charlton are due a sell on fee having sold him to Liverpool for £3m a year or so ago. He's only played 3 cup games for Liverpool. What has he done by not playing to increase his value 3fold & is he now a great player, worth 5 X JC because someone may pay £10m for him?

Great point he has done virtually nothing at Liverpool due to a bad injury a and has spent most of his time recovering. Who even knows how the injury will affect the him long term. It happens all the time though, the fact he is at Liverpool has increased his worth alone.....crazy.

Andy74
14-05-2017, 11:59 AM
I pretty much agree with you but here's a genuine question for you (& anyone) My mates are Charlton fans & are a bit excited that Bournemouth may be buying Joe Gomez from you guys for £10m. Charlton are due a sell on fee having sold him to Liverpool for £3m a year or so ago. He's only played 3 cup games for Liverpool. What has he done by not playing to increase his value 3fold & is he now a great player, worth 5 X JC because someone may pay £10m for him?

The market has moved though. The question would be could you instead get a better player than that for less? If the answer is yes then you do it.

Captain Trips
14-05-2017, 12:00 PM
As I have stated its easy to come up here and buy cheap. Bamford has done nothing for 2 years and IMO has been signed on memory for 5m. I think anything less for JC and SJM is a joke. Opinions though.

Andy74
14-05-2017, 12:54 PM
As I have stated its easy to come up here and buy cheap. Bamford has done nothing for 2 years and IMO has been signed on memory for 5m. I think anything less for JC and SJM is a joke. Opinions though.

He was signed on ability, potential and record.

If they or any team could confidently come up here and buy Cummings or anyone else for less and get as good a player then they would.

Cummings might achieve the things Bamford already has sometime. They bought a player though they know has already reached that level.

brog
14-05-2017, 01:22 PM
The market has moved though. The question would be could you instead get a better player than that for less? If the answer is yes then you do it.

The market now is not 300% of what it was 2 years ago! The English market is however out of control which is why most Prem teams now have a majority of non English players & why very few English/UK players are in demand abroad.

Captain Trips
14-05-2017, 01:36 PM
Jason Cummings is worth every penny of £5m all day IMO regardless for me whom his goals have been against. For me a talent now and will get better.

Baader
14-05-2017, 05:27 PM
Which is lovely if we are just talking about who has scored more goals for their respective teams, which we aren't. The original point of this thread seemed to be suggesting Cummings should be valued in the same way as Bamford.

In assuming by using the goals argument.

It gets you the wrong answer though.

His career might have stalled slightly but check out the goals ratio at MK Dons, Derby, Middlesbrough etc previously and the fact he's been thought well enough of to have been bought by Chelsea, for £7m for Middlesbrough, won Championship player of the year and represented England up to under 21 level.

Cummings might reach those figures at that level if he develops. Bamford has already done all that.

Someone mentioned Celtic earlier buying him. Would Celtic be able to pay the £10m or so he would cost? Middlesbrough just bought him and rate him as a future star for them.

If he was to come to Celtic he'd be one of the best if not the best player in Scotland.

Seriously, it's not just about club or level, he's just a better player than Cummings. The only argument I've seen against that is just pure goals scored which means nothing given the disparity in where these two have been playing their football.

Just righting the record pal, not passing judgement on who is better. That's subjective and don't see much point to it. I've seen a lot of Championship football and seen Bamford a good few times. He's a good player. Rowan Vine was a Championship regular before he came to us and I tend to think the level is somewhat overexaggerated.

Anyway, someone said Bamford has scored 123 goals. He's not even hit half that. False facts don't add anything to a debate.

greenlex
14-05-2017, 07:20 PM
When does the season start?

Dunbar Hibee
15-05-2017, 03:58 AM
Who the **** cares 😂 Strange thread