Local elections - STV explained

[marinello59]

I'd disagree.

The term is explicit in the title of the "Scottish Conservative & Unionist Party". It was (maybe still is) used in every party political broadcast, and on election literature.

http://www.scottishconservatives.com/

Do you remember anybody dismissing Thatcher and co as Unionists? I can't. Or Alex Salmond routinely dismissing Labour as unionists at FM questions. He didn't.

[CropleyWasGod]

Do you remember anybody dismissing Thatcher and co as Unionists? I can't. Or Alex Salmond routinely dismissing Labour as unionists at FM questions. He didn't.

I remember the consistent and regular use of the word, which is what GBY was denying.

I don't remember it being used as a pejorative, which is your angle.

[G B Young]

I'd disagree.

The term is explicit in the title of the "Scottish Conservative & Unionist Party". It was (maybe still is) used in every party political broadcast, and on election literature.

http://www.scottishconservatives.com/

Yes, fair enough, although they are generally referred to as the Conservatives or the Tories and if, has been pointed out, they changed their name from the Unionist Party in 1965 you'd need to be of an older generation or more interested in political history than I used to be for that word to be your primary association with the party.

To be honest, my political knowledge was so sketchy as a kid that I recall assuming that a Unionist and a member of a Trade Union were one and the same thing...

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

So it's derogatory to call a party by the name they call themselves? C'mon.

Lots of SNP supporters dont seem to like being labelled as nationalists.

I dont understand how anyone can deny that this term has come to prominence since 2014.

[ronaldo7]

Do you remember anybody dismissing Thatcher and co as Unionists? I can't. Or Alex Salmond routinely dismissing Labour as unionists at FM questions. He didn't.

I'll grant you that Unionist was lower down the pecking order for Thatcher in my day.:wink:

Ruth on the other hand wallows in the word.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/02/ruth-davidson-warns-nicola-sturgeon-unionists-would-win-second/

[Hibrandenburg]

Lots of SNP supporters dont seem to like being labelled as nationalists.

I dont understand how anyone can deny that this term has come to prominence since 2014.

I've no problem calling the strive for independence a nationalist movement. Why should anyone who wants to preserve the union have a problem being called a Unionist?

Important is what's in the box not what's written outside.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I've no problem calling the strive for independence a nationalist movement. Why should anyone who wants to preserve the union have a problem being called a Unionist?

Important is what's in the box not what's written outside.

I didnt particuarly, but i did object to the obvious sectarian undertones being flung about by some on here.

Equating 'unionism' with the orange order is like equating scottish nationalism with seed of gael or thosd other crackpots.

[ronaldo7]

It looks like the SNP got more than 105,000 more votes in 2017 than in 2012.

Not a bad outcome.

608,000 first preference votes.

[pacoluna]

I didn't know there were different categories of resurgence.

resurgence1.rising or tending to rise again; reviving; renascent. A renewed increase in interest or activity in a particular subject.




Less than 24% of the vote, some resurgence that. Of course the media won't tell you this though.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Less than 24% of the vote, some resurgence that. Of course the media won't tell you this though.

Its trends and expectations that are important. Nobody is disputing that the SNP 'won' this election, but how anyone can deny that the it was also an impressive set of results for the tories is beyond me.

It doesnt necessarily mean a resurgence, but after strong showing at holyrood, and now council elections and polling pretty well, im not sure how, or why, anyone would try amd argue that there hasn't been an obvious upturn in their support in scotland.

The nats problem is that being in such a good starting positiob, gains are harder to make and losses become more likely.

The tories are starting from a low position and so have much more potential to grow.

Its really not difficult to understand, but obviously doesnt fit with the party lines being pushed by a few posters on here, even in the face of the evidence and reasoned analysis.

[Hibrandenburg]

I didnt particuarly, but i did object to the obvious sectarian undertones being flung about by some on here.

Equating 'unionism' with the orange order is like equating scottish nationalism with seed of gael or thosd other crackpots.

Like it or not there is a connection. How many of the Orange Order would have voted SNP compared to Tory? Likewise im sure there are several unsavoury groups voting SNP, it doesn't define the party though.

[pacoluna]

Its trends and expectations that are important. Nobody is disputing that the SNP 'won' this election, but how anyone can deny that the it was also an impressive set of results for the tories is beyond me.

It doesnt necessarily mean a resurgence, but after strong showing at holyrood, and now council elections and polling pretty well, im not sure how, or why, anyone would try amd argue that there hasn't been an obvious upturn in their support in scotland.

The nats problem is that being in such a good starting positiob, gains are harder to make and losses become more likely.

The tories are starting from a low position and so have much more potential to grow.

Its really not difficult to understand, but obviously doesnt fit with the party lines being pushed by a few posters on here, even in the face of the evidence and reasoned analysis.
According to mundell the tories were the only winners in this election 😂. It's the media with their pro conservative BS that gets to me the most.

[IGRIGI]

Looking forward to seeing Ruth campaign under the No Surrender 1690 FTP Rule Brittania Follow Follow Loyal ticket for the 2nd independence referendum:agree:

[lucky]

Looking forward to seeing Ruth campaign under the No Surrender 1690 FTP Rule Brittania Follow Follow Loyal ticket for the 2nd independence referendum:agree:

That's the sort of nonsense which causes offense. As a nation we can not allow the independence debate to move towards sectarianism. I personally think your post is offensive and you should delete it

[marinello59]

Looking forward to seeing Ruth campaign under the No Surrender 1690 FTP Rule Brittania Follow Follow Loyal ticket for the 2nd independence referendum:agree:

I hope that followers of all parties call you out for that post. Very poor.

[johnbc70]

Looking forward to seeing Ruth campaign under the No Surrender 1690 FTP Rule Brittania Follow Follow Loyal ticket for the 2nd independence referendum:agree:

What a great way to engage with people who may share a different view to yourself. Sure the Yes voters will be horrified with your statement.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

So the SNP got around one third of the vote at the local elections (32%) - down 18% on its 2015 general election share of the vote.

Tories second on 25%.

According to the electoral management board for Scotland.

[pacoluna]

in 2016 the SNP sought a mandate for a referendum, and won. in 2017 the no more referendum party sought to overturn that mandate, and lost.

People tell me I should try and engage and converse with those that believe in the UK, I will when they accept democracy and discredit May for her anti democratic stance.

[lucky]

It looks like the SNP got more than 105,000 more votes in 2017 than in 2012.

Not a bad outcome.

608,000 first preference votes.

Great spinning the SNP vote is down 18% from the GE in 2015. Whilst I fully expect the SNP to perform very in the GE with the outdated FPTP voting system I doubt they'll get more than 45 MPs returned

[marinello59]

So the SNP got around one third of the vote at the local elections (32%) - down 18% on its 2015 general election share of the vote.

Tories second on 25%.

According to the electoral management board for Scotland.

You really can't compare Local elections and the general Election. All we can say is that the SNP were run away winners in both.

[Moulin Yarns]

So the SNP got around one third of the vote at the local elections (32%) - down 18% on its 2015 general election share of the vote.

Tories second on 25%.

According to the electoral management board for Scotland.

Comparing apples and bananas!!


Different voting system, and lower turnout.

FWIW, Electorate = 4.11milion, votes cast 1.92million so a 47% turnout. there are no figures for 2015 on the EMBS website to compare, so here is the 2016 Scottish election figures votes cast = 2.29million a 56% turnout, I therefore conclude that all parties votes were down last week compared to both Scottish and General elections.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Comparing apples and bananas!!


Different voting system, and lower turnout.

FWIW, Electorate = 4.11milion, votes cast 1.92million so a 47% turnout. there are no figures for 2015 on the EMBS website to compare, so here is the 2016 Scottish election figures votes cast = 2.29million a 56% turnout, I therefore conclude that all parties votes were down last week compared to both Scottish and General elections.

But its percentage share, not votes cast.

Otherwise yeah, it comes with a bit of a health warning.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You really can't compare Local elections and the general Election. All we can say is that the SNP were run away winners in both.

No youre right, thats an obvious caveat and i did lift that from elsewhere!

But most commentators accept that the local elections are a signpost to the GE.

So it tells us something, but obviously its significance is very much debateable.

[Moulin Yarns]

But its percentage share, not votes cast.

A better comparison ill be the last two council elections

in 2012

SNP first vote 32.35 Seats 34.75%
Labour first vote 31.39% seats 32.22%
Conservative and Unionist first Vote 13.27% seats 9.4%


2017

SNP first vote 32.3% Seats 35.1%
Labour first vote 20.2% seats 21.4%
Conservative and Unionist first Vote 25.3% seats 22.5%

Which shows the SNP vote is pretty much the same in the last 5 years in Council elections. That is comparing like with like.

[Hibrandenburg]

A better comparison ill be the last two council elections

in 2012

SNP first vote 32.35 Seats 34.75%
Labour first vote 31.39% seats 32.22%
Conservative and Unionist first Vote 13.27% seats 9.4%


2017

SNP first vote 32.3% Seats 35.1%
Labour first vote 20.2% seats 21.4%
Conservative and Unionist first Vote 25.3% seats 22.5%

Which shows the SNP vote is pretty much the same in the last 5 years in Council elections. That is comparing like with like.

:agree: All that's happened is the Tories and Labour have swapped some voters :wink:

[G B Young]

Comprehensive round-up of the local results here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39846268

[ronaldo7]

Great spinning the SNP vote is down 18% from the GE in 2015. Whilst I fully expect the SNP to perform very in the GE with the outdated FPTP voting system I doubt they'll get more than 45 MPs returned

Thought you were better than this.

You are asking me to compare the Local elections with a General election. :rolleyes:

The SNP have won 3 different campaigns, under 3 different electoral systems, in the last 3 years.

FPTP, D'hondt, and STV, but you knew that.

[Just Alf]

Looking forward to seeing Ruth campaign under the No Surrender 1690 FTP Rule Brittania Follow Follow Loyal ticket for the 2nd independence referendum:agree:
Not one of the better posts on here I have to say!



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

Ive heard the figure of £500m underfunded, and in huge need of reform.

One of the major reforms required, and desired by many, is to close down inefficient local hospitals. But the SG dont like that because the SNP got lots of local support for 'saving local hospitals'.

Everyone who knows anything about health policy in Scotland k ow this is a ridiculous situation.

Classic example of politics getting in the way of good policy and running the NHS properly.

Obviously not just the SNP do this, bit health in scotland is firmly an SNP issue.


Who have you heard about the £500m from?

Who is the "everyone" you speak of, that knows anything about health policy in Scotland?


Still waiting on the answers to these questions if you'd oblige, please. Southsideharp Bhoy.


You may have forgotten about this SB?

Any answers bud:aok:

[G B Young]

You may have forgotten about this SB?

Any answers bud:aok:

Zero expertise on this myself, but I'm guessing the figure he alluded to may relate to this story, with ministers reported to have 'hiked their savings targets to nearly £500 million' in the third paragraph.

And yes, I know it's a Telegraph report...

[pacoluna]

The SNP have won 3 different campaigns under 3 different electoral systems in the last 3 years, none of which are comparable.

[ronaldo7]

Zero expertise on this myself, but I'm guessing the figure he alluded to may relate to this story, with ministers reported to have 'hiked their savings targets to nearly £500 million' in the third paragraph.

And yes, I know it's a Telegraph report...

Or maybe the BBC just weren't telling us the whole picture.:wink:

https://wingsoverscotland.com/a-little-more-certainty/

[G B Young]

[QUOTE=ronaldo7;5038352]Or maybe the BBC just weren't telling us the whole picture.:wink:

Sorry, I just noticed I don't seem to have actually posted the link I was referring to:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/27/audit-shows-scottish-nhs-failing-to-keep-up-with-rising-demand-a/

It wasn't about council seat numbers, it was about the NHS shortfall you were asking SouthsideHarp about. As I said, I'm not actually sure if this is what he was referring to but it does make mention of the £500 million.

[ronaldo7]

[QUOTE=ronaldo7;5038352]Or maybe the BBC just weren't telling us the whole picture.:wink:

Sorry, I just noticed I don't seem to have actually posted the link I was referring to:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/27/audit-shows-scottish-nhs-failing-to-keep-up-with-rising-demand-a/

It wasn't about council seat numbers, it was about the NHS shortfall you were asking SouthsideHarp about. As I said, I'm not actually sure if this is what he was referring to but it does make mention of the £500 million.

Thanks for that. I quoted the wrong post from you regarding the local election seat numbers and the BBC.:greengrin

Thanks for the link, the £500 Million mentioned in the article says it's for government savings in the NHS, not about underfunding.:aok:

[ronaldo7]

Tories set to go into coalition with the Lib Dems in Aberdeenshire council.

https://t.co/ZAdRatQ3V0

Any news on Edinburgh, anyone?

[makaveli1875]

Tories set to go into coalition with the Lib Dems in Aberdeenshire council.

https://t.co/ZAdRatQ3V0

Any news on Edinburgh, anyone?

Edinburgh coalition talks are in a deadlock . SNP accusing jambo Murray of interfering with the process

[G B Young]

Edinburgh coalition talks are in a deadlock . SNP accusing jambo Murray of interfering with the process

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/coalition-talks-in-deadlock-amid-claims-of-outside-pressure-1-4441425

[degenerated]

Great spinning the SNP vote is down 18% from the GE in 2015. Whilst I fully expect the SNP to perform very in the GE with the outdated FPTP voting system I doubt they'll get more than 45 MPs returned

You're comparing apples and Aardvarks though, compare their vote share with what they got in 2012 and its the same. 18579

[lucky]

Thought you were better than this.

You are asking me to compare the Local elections with a General election. :rolleyes:

The SNP have won 3 different campaigns, under 3 different electoral systems, in the last 3 years.

FPTP, D'hondt, and STV, but you knew that.

The reality is the SNP vote is going down from an extremely high position to a high position. I wish Labour had these problems. On today's opinion polls in London Labour are in front of the Tories. This election may give people some difficult choices. Pro Europe, anti Europe, pro independence anti independence pro or anti Tory this could lead to lots of tactical voting. Instead of voting for candidates or party choice some may choose to vote to stop a party they dislike more.

[lucky]

Tories set to go into coalition with the Lib Dems in Aberdeenshire council.

https://t.co/ZAdRatQ3V0

Any news on Edinburgh, anyone?

More spin from SNP who are desperate for a deal. They can only deal with Labour as Strugeon has said no deals with the Tories. As such Labour can demand a favorable deal. Ian Murray only has a say on deals when they go in front of the SEC. I think we may see a lot of minority administrations

[pacoluna]

More spin from SNP who are desperate for a deal. They can only deal with Labour as Strugeon has said no deals with the Tories. As such Labour can demand a favorable deal. Ian Murray only has a say on deals when they go in front of the SEC. I think we may see a lot of minority administrations
Labour are in no position to demand anything. Either way they will be criticized.

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-39869887

A new councillor has resigned only days after being elected in Moray.

Sandy Cooper was one of three people chosen to represent the Elgin City North ward in last week's election.

He tendered his resignation in a letter to the council's chief executive.

It is understood the cost of the by-election could be about £25,000.

Moray Council said Mr Cooper's nomination papers contained no party or political affiliation.

strange yin :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-39869887

A new councillor has resigned only days after being elected in Moray.

Sandy Cooper was one of three people chosen to represent the Elgin City North ward in last week's election.

He tendered his resignation in a letter to the council's chief executive.

It is understood the cost of the by-election could be about £25,000.

Moray Council said Mr Cooper's nomination papers contained no party or political affiliation.

strange yin :greengrin


He was elected at the 4th stage, but he was not recorded as an independent, it was blank, and I think there may have been a possible enquiry.

[ronaldo7]

More spin from SNP who are desperate for a deal. They can only deal with Labour as Strugeon has said no deals with the Tories. As such Labour can demand a favorable deal. Ian Murray only has a say on deals when they go in front of the SEC. I think we may see a lot of minority administrations

Is this what Labour have become then?

Ask a question, and it becomes spin.:rolleyes:

Deals will be done all over Scotland, and as you said the SNP won't do deals with the Tories. I'm surprised at Labour, after the Kezia saying the SNP were passing on Tory austerity, she'd do a deal with them.

How things change eh.

[ronaldo7]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-39869887

A new councillor has resigned only days after being elected in Moray.

Sandy Cooper was one of three people chosen to represent the Elgin City North ward in last week's election.

He tendered his resignation in a letter to the council's chief executive.

It is understood the cost of the by-election could be about £25,000.

Moray Council said Mr Cooper's nomination papers contained no party or political affiliation.

strange yin :greengrin

This guy had previously stood for the Tories

[lucky]

Labour are in no position to demand anything. Either way they will be criticized.

But your wrong, the SNP can only go into coalition with Labour therefore it reduces their hand in the negotiations.

[pacoluna]

But your wrong, the SNP can only go into coalition with Labour therefore it reduces their hand in the negotiations.
Labour have a choice, coalition with the SNP or a pan unionist coalition with Tory and libdems, the latter choice being one of the reasons they are being decimated in Scotland. Will they learn?

[marinello59]

Labour have a choice, coalition with the SNP or a pan unionist coalition with Tory and libdems, the latter choice being one of the reasons they are being decimated in Scotland. Will they learn?

Pan Unionist?
We are talking about councils here, the constitution really has nothing to do with whether our bins get emptied etc. The way these people are sticking to rigid party lines when it's really no more than a management job is ludicrous. The leadership of both the SNP and Labour should be keeping their noses out of any deals done at local level and shouldn't be constraining them in any way.

[pacoluna]

Pan Unionist?
We are talking about councils here, the constitution really has nothing to do with whether our bins get emptied etc. The way these people are sticking to rigid party lines when it's really no more than a management job is ludicrous. The leadership of both the SNP and Labour should be keeping their noses out of any deals done at local level and shouldn't be constraining them in any way.

That's the Tories idea, according to them it would be the most stable administration.
Yet it wouldn't involve the party with the most councillors :rolleyes:

[marinello59]

That's the Tories idea, according to them it would be the most stable administration.
Yet it wouldn't involve the party with the most councillors :rolleyes:

If they have used the term Pan-Unionist whoever came up with it should be given a good hard kick up the arse.

[speedy_gonzales]

But your wrong, the SNP can only go into coalition with Labour therefore it reduces their hand in the negotiations.

Apart from Ms Sturgeon saying they won't, is there any other reason why they can't go in to a coalition with the Tories?
They had a reasonable relationship in their coalition 10 years ago!

[ronaldo7]

Who have you heard about the £500m from?

Who is the "everyone" you speak of, that knows anything about health policy in Scotland?


Still waiting on the answers to these questions if you'd oblige, please. Southsideharp Bhoy.


You may have forgotten about this SB?

Any answers bud:aok:

18584

[ronaldo7]

SNP and Labour pact in South Ayrshire council.:greengrin Tories get bumped.:flag:

https://t.co/XrUlvyh9KS

[Pretty Boy]

SNP and Labour pact in South Ayrshire council.:greengrin Tories get bumped.:flag:

https://t.co/XrUlvyh9KS

Tories were ueful for the SNP when they voted with them to reject the bill to scrap the 1% pay rise cap (a real time pay reduction) in the NHS though weren't they?

[ronaldo7]

Tories were ueful for the SNP when they voted with them to reject the bill to scrap the 1% pay rise cap (a real time pay reduction) in the NHS though weren't they?

The Tories will vote whatever way they like, just as they did on the budget.

I believe our nurses in Scotland are the highest paid in the uk, and the bursary for student nurses have been protected here, whilst being scrapped elsewhere.

https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/education/bursary-protected-for-scottish-student-nurses-in-2017-18/7015117.article

Maybe if we didn't have to pay the Labour debt on PFI, we'd have more to spend on the services we now currently need.

You can only pish with the cock you've got though.

Not sure what this has got to do with Local gov elections though:wink:

I should also have mentioned there is no cap on Nurses wage negotiations. It's determined by an Independent review body, which was then funded in full by the Scottish Government.

[ronaldo7]

North Lanarkshire council.

Labour coalition with the Tories

SNP 33 Seats
Labour 32 Seats
Tories 10 seats

[Hibrandenburg]

north lanarkshire council.

Labour coalition with the tories

snp 33 seats
labour 32 seats
tories 10 seats

"no surrrrrrrrendar"!

[Moulin Yarns]

North Lanarkshire council.

Labour coalition with the Tories

SNP 33 Seats
Labour 32 Seats
Tories 10 seats

Perth and Kinross

CON/LIBDEM/IND coalition


Edit

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/perth-kinross/426665/tories-announce-new-team-up-to-take-control-of-perth-and-kinross-council/


Political Party

Number of Councillors



Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party

17



Scottish National Party

15



Scottish Liberal Democrats

4



Scottish Labour Party

1



Independents

3



Total

40

[High-On-Hibs]

At Aberdeen Council.... but party higher ups warn of councilor suspensions, unless they opt out of the coalition deal....

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15291055.Labour_councillors_defy_party_to_lead_Abe rdeen_with_the_Tories/

[marinello59]

At Aberdeen Council.... but party higher ups warn of councilor suspensions, unless they opt out of the coalition deal....

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15291055.Labour_councillors_defy_party_to_lead_Abe rdeen_with_the_Tories/

I wouldn't put it past that group to stay put as Independents, brass necked charlatans.

[Hibbyradge]

18584

Enough already!

You've made your point. No need to rub his nose in it, you
big bully. 👊👊

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

18584

This is what you were referring to that other thread

I heard that figure from senior NHS people.

And if you speak to professionals within the service, most will agree. Privately, so will many politicians.

I stopped engaging, because that thread went a werid direction, and frankly i dont see the point in diacussing with tou - its like trying to have a rational discussion about religion with a very religious person.

Dont worry, you didnt rub my nose in anything.

[marinello59]

At Aberdeen Council.... but party higher ups warn of councilor suspensions, unless they opt out of the coalition deal....

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15291055.Labour_councillors_defy_party_to_lead_Abe rdeen_with_the_Tories/

It gerts better. A LIb Dem Councillor has switched to Independent after standing on her parties ticket a few weeks ago to allow this shoddy deal to go ahead.

[High-On-Hibs]

It gerts better. A LIb Dem Councillor has switched to Independent after standing on her parties ticket a few weeks ago to allow this shoddy deal to go ahead.

Well expect more of this kind of thing in the future. It's no longer about who is best placed to represent the people in each constituency, it's all about one constitutional issue and one constitutional issue only and using dirty underhanded tactics to make utter fools out of the electorate. :brickwall

[marinello59]

Well expect more of this kind of thing in the future. It's no longer about who is best placed to represent the people in each constituency, it's all about one constitutional issue and one constitutional issue only and using dirty underhanded tactics to make utter fools out of the electorate. :brickwall

This is nothing to do with the constitution and everything to do with a group of councillors who think they have a divine right to remain in power.

[High-On-Hibs]

This is nothing to do with the constitution and everything to do with a group of councillors who think they have a divine right to remain in power.

I can assure you that this is all about keeping the SNP out of power in local constituencies.

[marinello59]

I can assure you that this is all about keeping the SNP out of power in local constituencies.

Not in this case.

[High-On-Hibs]

So now Labour have "suspended" their nine councilors in Aberdeen for refusing to back down on a tory coalition.... which means they now become "independents" and the tories will still run the council anyway...

What an absolute slap in the face to the Aberdeen electorate.

[Pretty Boy]

So now Labour have "suspended" their nine councilors in Aberdeen for refusing to back down on a tory coalition.... which means they now become "independents" and the tories will still run the council anyway...

What an absolute slap in the face to the Aberdeen electorate.

And Labour wonder why the electorate are struggling to believe they can run the country.

[ronaldo7]

All this on the day the Tory party suspend two councillors for bigoted and racist tweets. The Labour party decide to usurp them on the news at 6. :rolleyes:

Vote Labour, get Tory.

Seen on Twitter

"It must be easy for Labour and Tories to go into coalition when they're all mates at the Orange Lodge".

I wonder how much truth is in that?

[High-On-Hibs]

I just wonder if the remaining Labour supporters in Scotland are even aware of any of these shenanigans, or if they are but just don't care?

[marinello59]

All this on the day the Tory party suspend two councillors for bigoted and racist tweets. The Labour party decide to usurp them on the news at 6. :rolleyes:

Vote Labour, get Tory.

Seen on Twitter

"It must be easy for Labour and Tories to go into coalition when they're all mates at the Orange Lodge".

I wonder how much truth is in that?

Are there many Orange lodges outside of the central belt? I'd say that is a particularly nasty slur.

[High-On-Hibs]

Are there many Orange lodges outside of the central belt? I'd say that is a particularly nasty slur.

There are, but they don't call themselves orange lodges. They hide behind the banner of freemasonry and there are plenty of these lodges across Scotland

[ronaldo7]

Are there many Orange lodges outside of the central belt? I'd say that is a particularly nasty slur.

Yeah, pretty nasty eh. I wondered if there was any truth in it.

[marinello59]

There are, but they don't call themselves orange lodges. They hide behind the banner of freemasonry and there are plenty of these lodges across Scotland

Behave yourself, they are a totally different organisation with no sectarian baggage. The attempts to dismiss any opposition as being sectarian in nature is quite simply lazy and wrong.

[marinello59]

Yeah, pretty nasty eh. I wondered if there was any truth in it.

In a rare case or two its possible. But on a widespread basis,no chance. This mainly comes down to political obstinacy and plain stupidity.

[ronaldo7]

In a rare case or two its possible. But on a widespread basis,no chance. This mainly comes down to political obstinacy and plain stupidity.

Having never dealt with anyone of that persuasion (at least, to my knowledge:greengrin) I was concerned about the Orange Lodge Grand masters statement, just after the local elections, that they'd got their people elected onto local councils.

I've seen it mentioned a number of times on social media, and it's now getting covered in the MSM.

[marinello59]

Having never dealt with anyone of that persuasion (at least, to my knowledge:greengrin) I was concerned about the Orange Lodge Grand masters statement, just after the local elections, that they'd got their people elected onto local councils.

I've seen it mentioned a number of times on social media, and it's now getting covered in the MSM.

I rather suspect the big giant orange... or whatever he calls himself... would like to think that his crackpot organisation has more influence than it has, hence his statement. Of course there will be members of the orange lodge serving as councillors. Has it had any effect on the forming of coalitions etc. Where's the proof? I will say with 100% certainly it isn't the case with Aberdeen, like most of the geographical area of Scotland there are no sectarian issues.

[High-On-Hibs]

Behave yourself, they are a totally different organisation with no sectarian baggage. The attempts to dismiss any opposition as being sectarian in nature is quite simply lazy and wrong.

You couldn't be more wrong. They used to be totally different organisations, but it has been hijacked over the years. I'm not just randomly throwing this out there, i've witnessed it first hand.

[marinello59]

You couldn't be more wrong. They used to be totally different organisations, but it has been hijacked over the years. I'm not just randomly throwing this out there, i've witnessed it first hand.

There a few Freemasons on here who could comment on that I'm sure. Are you saying the Aberdeen Council deal comes down to a sectarian meeting of minds then, it's all an Orange plot?
My comment about dismissing opposition as sectarian stands by the way. It is lazy.

[High-On-Hibs]

There a few Freemasons on here who could comment on that I'm sure. Are you saying the Aberdeen Council deal comes down to a sectarian meeting of minds then, it's all an Orange plot?
My comment about dismissing opposition as sectarian stands by the way. It is lazy.

It is written off as lazy which is exactly how they get away with it. I have no doubt that there will be OO/NF sympathizers in that council coalition, i'm under no doubt about it at all.

But it's one of those things that's such a shock, that people don't want to believe it. So it gets dismissed.

[marinello59]

It is written off as lazy which is exactly how they get away with it. I have no doubt that there will be OO/NF sympathizers in that council coalition, i'm under no doubt about it at all.

But it's one of those things that's such a shock, that people don't want to believe it. So it gets dismissed.

I bow to your superior knowledge of politics and sectarianism in Aberdeen then.
I'd love to see your proof , if you want to paint sectarianism as part a major nationwide conspiracy against the SNP gaining control of councils I assume you have some. Got any?

[lucky]

For me it's a well done to Labour leadership. If our councillors think of themselves before the party it's clear labour leaders won't allow it. This strong leadership from Kez as for the Aberdeen councillors; bye bye you've sold your soul for a shilling

[degenerated]

If they have used the term Pan-Unionist whoever came up with it should be given a good hard kick up the arse.
"Crucially, we now have a Unionist coalition that will put the interests of Aberdeen first, not obsess over a second independence referendum"

Not sure how big Douglas lumsden is but make sure you don't hold back when you put your big toe up the crack of his erse 😁

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election/labour-suspends-aberdeen-councillors-over-tory-coalition-deal-1-4447944

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

"Crucially, we now have a Unionist coalition that will put the interests of Aberdeen first, not obsess over a second independence referendum"

Not sure how big Douglas lumsden is but make sure you don't hold back when you put your big toe up the crack of his erse 😁

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election/labour-suspends-aberdeen-councillors-over-tory-coalition-deal-1-4447944

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

I'm not so sure Lumsden could be credited with coming up with the original slogan. Or any original idea. The queue to give Labour councillors a kick up the backside will probably be longer though, such is the anger at what they have done. I'm happy to give the Tory a good kick up the backside as a warm up though. :greengrin

[marinello59]

For me it's a well done to Labour leadership. If our councillors think of themselves before the party it's clear labour leaders won't allow it. This strong leadership from Kez as for the Aberdeen councillors; bye bye you've sold your soul for a shilling

I hope she sticks to that and makes it clear there is no way back for them. That means expulsion.

[GlesgaeHibby]

For me it's a well done to Labour leadership. If our councillors think of themselves before the party it's clear labour leaders won't allow it. This strong leadership from Kez as for the Aberdeen councillors; bye bye you've sold your soul for a shilling

Agree with her stance, but don't agree that her leadership is strong. (Now former) Labour Councillor's ignored her request to stand down from the coalition deal and gave her the two fingers. Added to that it looks like Aberdeen won't be the only place Labour and the Tories are looking to jump into bed together demonstrates that the party is all over the place.

Kezia says Labour are fed up talking about another referendum and want to make this election about their policies, in jumps their only MP Ian Murray:

We’ve got one message and one message only right across Scotland as we go into the general election on the 8th of June. And that is, we can put another nail in the independence referendum coffin by voting Labour on the 8th of June and sending a very strong message to Nicola Sturgeon that the people of Scotland do not want another divisive independence referendum.

I quite like Dugdale and reckon she means well, but Scottish Labour are a total mess with nobody singing from the same hymn sheet.

[ronaldo7]

SNP take control of Falkirk council from Labour for the first time in 10 years as a minority administration.

No more funding out of the roads budget to fund Orange Order marches.:wink:

West Lothian, and North Lanarkshire councils looking like Lab/Tory coalitions, I wonder if Kezia will have something to say about this?

[Beefster]

All this on the day the Tory party suspend two councillors for bigoted and racist tweets. The Labour party decide to usurp them on the news at 6. :rolleyes:

Vote Labour, get Tory.

Seen on Twitter

"It must be easy for Labour and Tories to go into coalition when they're all mates at the Orange Lodge".

I wonder how much truth is in that?


Yeah, pretty nasty eh. I wondered if there was any truth in it.

I read on the Internet that llamas are actually the reincarnated forms of grumpy folk but I didn't feel the need to unquestioningly pass it on in the form of a 'I wonder...'. It's akin to the conspiracy theorist tactic of 'just asking the question'. Throw enough bull**** and some will inevitably stick.

And I'm a Catholic whose political views fall right across the majority of the mainstream political parties. Just before you accuse me of being an Orangeman/Tory/Labourite/Nazi etc.

[ronaldo7]

I read on the Internet that llamas are actually the reincarnated forms of grumpy folk but I didn't feel the need to unquestioningly pass it on in the form of a 'I wonder...'. It's akin to the conspiracy theorist tactic of 'just asking the question'. Throw enough bull**** and some will inevitably stick.

And I'm a Catholic whose political views fall right across the majority of the mainstream political parties. Just before you accuse me of being an Orangeman/Tory/Labourite/Nazi etc.

Good for you.

The recent piece in the Sunday Herald, and other pieces regarding the Falkirk council diverting funds from roads to allow Orange Order marches to proceed tell me it's more than the bull**** you allude to.

"However, McHarg said most of the Protestant Order’s members are Labour supporters as he revealed the organisation’s attempt to extend its political influence. He said the majority of Orange Lodge members who had successfully been elected as councillors were Labour, but added that at least one Tory had also been voted in.
McHarg said at least six of members had been elected as councillors, with dozens more sympathisers also returned in the local elections.
The Grand Master said the Orange Order now had more elected politicians in Scotland among its membership than at any time in nearly 20 years. He said the organisation had members on councils in North and East Ayrshire, as well as in South and North Lanarkshire".

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/homenews/15270068.Orange_Order_elected_to_councils_as_Labou r_and_Tory_members/

[marinello59]

Good for you.

The recent piece in the Sunday Herald, and other pieces regarding the Falkirk council diverting funds from roads to allow Orange Order marches to proceed tell me it's more than the bull**** you allude to.

"However, McHarg said most of the Protestant Order’s members are Labour supporters as he revealed the organisation’s attempt to extend its political influence. He said the majority of Orange Lodge members who had successfully been elected as councillors were Labour, but added that at least one Tory had also been voted in.
McHarg said at least six of members had been elected as councillors, with dozens more sympathisers also returned in the local elections.
The Grand Master said the Orange Order now had more elected politicians in Scotland among its membership than at any time in nearly 20 years. He said the organisation had members on councils in North and East Ayrshire, as well as in South and North Lanarkshire".

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/homenews/15270068.Orange_Order_elected_to_councils_as_Labou r_and_Tory_members/


Six members elected with dozens more sympathisers returned? What does that mean exactly? It's hardly the widespread infiltration of the Labour Party that you seem determined to portray it as. There are a multitude of reasons why I won't be voting Labour any time soon but religous intolerance is not one of them.
There is a nasty little campaign being run by SNP supporters on social media to keep throwing this stuff about as they know that by doing so plenty of it will stick and unfairly tarnish decent people by association. What has this type of thing got to do with Civic Nationalism? It's simply poisonous.

[ronaldo7]

Six members elected with dozens more sympathisers returned? What does that mean exactly? It's hardly the widespread infiltration of the Labour Party that you seem determined to portray it as. There are a multitude of reasons why I won't be voting Labour any time soon but religous intolerance is not one of them.
There is a nasty little campaign being run by SNP supporters on social media to keep throwing this stuff about as they know that by doing so plenty of it will stick and unfairly tarnish decent people by association. What has this type of thing got to do with Civic Nationalism? It's simply poisonous.

So reporting what the MSM have printed to hundreds of thousands of people is now wrong? Are we not to discuss it here?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

So reporting what the MSM have printed to hundreds of thousands of people is now wrong? Are we not to discuss it here?

His question about civic nationalism is a fair one though?

Why does religion come into it?

[One Day Soon]

Six members elected with dozens more sympathisers returned? What does that mean exactly? It's hardly the widespread infiltration of the Labour Party that you seem determined to portray it as. There are a multitude of reasons why I won't be voting Labour any time soon but religous intolerance is not one of them.
There is a nasty little campaign being run by SNP supporters on social media to keep throwing this stuff about as they know that by doing so plenty of it will stick and unfairly tarnish decent people by association. What has this type of thing got to do with Civic Nationalism? It's simply poisonous.


Desperate stuff. And this is when they've only just started the downward curve. It will get a lot worse.

Remember the heady days when they used to berate everyone else for negative campaigning?

[marinello59]

So reporting what the MSM have printed to hundreds of thousands of people is now wrong? Are we not to discuss it here?

Maybe I didn't make my point clear because that's certainly not what I was suggesting.
My point is that the campaign to tarnish SNP opponents as being widely infiltrated by and sympathetic to the Orange order is dishonest and downright nasty. It's certainly at odds with the all inclusive civic nationalism we like to boast about. Isn't it?

[ronaldo7]

Maybe I didn't make my point clear because that's certainly not what I was suggesting.
My point is that the campaign to tarnish SNP opponents as being widely infiltrated by and sympathetic to the Orange order is dishonest and downright nasty. It's certainly at odds with the all inclusive civic nationalism we like to boast about. Isn't it?

We should call out all forms of religious bigotry wherever it raises it's head, and from whichever party it eminates from. This time it's in the form of the orange order. To do and say nothing, will only further fuel their fire. Where is this campaign you speak about?

[marinello59]

We should call out all forms of religious bigotry wherever it raises it's head, and from whichever party it eminates from. This time it's in the form of the orange order. To do and say nothing, will only further fuel their fire. Where is this campaign you speak about?

What decent person would disagree with that? I hope you are not implying I have suggested otherwise.
I must be having a bad day here because yet again I have failed to make my point clearly so I will try again. :greengrin
Suggesting that there is widespread infiltration of the Labour party by the Orange Order and that the vast majority of members of that party are in any more tolerant of that organisation than the rest of us is wrong. I'm sure you agree with that statement as you previously agreed it is a pretty nasty slur.
Where is this campaign? Perhaps the wrong choice of word by myself but it is gaining ground.We have one poster here who asssures me that the dirty deal done by the Aberdeen Labour group was down to a masonic conspiracy so that's one person who believes the main opposition to the SNP is driven by bigotry. Now we both know that's not true, we've been around long enough to know that the current divisions between SNP and Labour are, sadly, more than enough reason for some Councillors to refuse to deal with those they see as the enemy.
However the depiction of those on the No side as being happy to embrace bigots is becoming common parlance on socal media. In fact you quoted some of it yourself but only because you wondered if it was true or not of course.




Seen on Twitter

"It must be easy for Labour and Tories to go into coalition when they're all mates at the Orange Lodge".

I wonder how much truth is in that?

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-39973655

The SNP and Labour are set to run East Renfrewshire Council despite the Conservatives winning the most seats.

The two parties, along with a local independent councillor, have said they will work together to protect local services.

[ronaldo7]

Labour councillors get round their party rules. Disciplinary issues?

https://t.co/sSRX9hxWxD

[marinello59]

Labour councillors get round their party rules. Disciplinary issues?

https://t.co/sSRX9hxWxD

Kezia' s attempts to lay down the law have been awful. Any chances of Labour in Scotland riding on the coat tails of Corbyn's relative success down south have been blown.

[Just Alf]

Kezia' s attempts to lay down the law have been awful. Any chances of Labour in Scotland riding on the coat tails of Corbyn's relative success down south have been blown.
And here's me been thinking if we were ever independent they'd be my 1st choice.... Sigh....

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[JimBHibees]

Depressing to be honest. Better together. Sold their soul more like. Dugdale should resign now.

[Pretty Boy]

Kezia' s attempts to lay down the law have been awful. Any chances of Labour in Scotland riding on the coat tails of Corbyn's relative success down south have been blown.

The strategy of Labour in Scotland has been baffling.

Every bit of literature I have seen from the has referenced a referendum multiple times, everyone knows they don't want another referendum so tell us something else.

Labour are doing relatively well in England and Wales because Corbyn is highlighting the differences between him and the other parties and campaigning as positively as we can expect in this day and age. Kez droning on and on about a referendum is bringing nothing to the table.

[High-On-Hibs]

SNP council in Glasgow sued for decisons made by the previous Labour council, despite being strongly opposed by the SNP and the unions at the time. :rolleyes:

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/15316300.New_SNP_rulers_in_Glasgow_sued_over_Labou r_s_IT_privatisation/

[CropleyWasGod]

SNP council in Glasgow sued for decisons made by the previous Labour council, despite being strongly opposed by the SNP and the unions at the time. :rolleyes:

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/15316300.New_SNP_rulers_in_Glasgow_sued_over_Labou r_s_IT_privatisation/

The Council isn't just its elected reps, so I don't see what the issue is.

[High-On-Hibs]

The Council isn't just its elected reps, so I don't see what the issue is.

No, but it's the elected reps who get the slap on the wrists.

[CropleyWasGod]

No, but it's the elected reps who get the slap on the wrists.

Do they? They get the chance to blame the previous administration. Councils and Governments do it all the time.

And the taxpayer pays for it, no matter what.

[High-On-Hibs]

Do they? They get the chance to blame the previous administration. Councils and Governments do it all the time.

And the taxpayer pays for it, no matter what.

Of course they can blame the previous administration. But the previous administration will not be held legally accountable for, which is exactly why they did what they did in the first place. A cowardly political stunt that has a negative impact on the people of Glasgow.

[CropleyWasGod]

Of course they can blame the previous administration. But the previous administration will not be held legally accountable for, which is exactly why they did what they did in the first place. A cowardly political stunt that has a negative impact on the people of Glasgow.

And what if the civil action fails? What if it's found that it was the correct decision to take?

[Moulin Yarns]

No, but it's the elected reps who get the slap on the wrists.

The elected members are the public face of local government, they sit in committees and occasionally vote on recommendations from Council Officers, but the Council work is all done by us officers. Believe me, I should know.

How else do you think I can be on .net during the day? :wink:

[High-On-Hibs]

And what if the civil action fails? What if it's found that it was the correct decision to take?

It wasn't the correct decision to take though. It should have been put out to bid. Labour knew this at the time and did this entirely on purpose. I just wonder what other bombshells they've left behind.


The elected members are the public face of local government, they sit in committees and occasionally vote on recommendations from Council Officers, but the Council work is all done by us officers. Believe me, I should know.

How else do you think I can be on .net during the day? :wink:

I'm not debating who does the real work behind the scenes. I'm talking about the people who take the stick on the face of it all.

[ronaldo7]

SNP council in Glasgow sued for decisons made by the previous Labour council, despite being strongly opposed by the SNP and the unions at the time. :rolleyes:

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/15316300.New_SNP_rulers_in_Glasgow_sued_over_Labou r_s_IT_privatisation/

This was already in train prior to the local gov elections, and the SNP in the form of Susan Aitken has already met with council officers, and will now meet the relevant TU officials to agree a fair settlement.

We've been on the side of the workers throughout this debacle, and are already clearing up Labours mess.

No further appeals will happen under the SNP.

https://t.co/HxQGoEe8zE

Around 6000 claimants are understood to be affected by today's decision. It is still unclear what the scale of the payouts will be or the impact on the authority's financial position. The new SNP administration on the council had made a manifesto commitment to resolve all outstanding equal pay disputes. Unison, Scotland’s largest public service union, said it represented 1400 claimants, many of whom had equal pay claims dating back to 2006.*
Union sources said the payouts from this case alone will cost the city council tens of millions of pounds, with one citing a figure "of at least £50million".
One said: "The old regime resisted what had been decided in other cases across the UK from 2009, while new administration indicated during the local government election that they would* address the issue. This has been repeated since and we look forward them holding to that through early discussions."

:aok:

As an aside,

It took the SNP administration in Aberdeen to resolve equal pay unfairness. We can now add Glasgow to the list.:greengrin