Religion

[Navids Numpties]

Just wondering what everyone's religion is and what the statistics are

[Moulin Yarns]

Football is my religion, Hibees are my gods.

[Navids Numpties]

Football is my religion, Hibees are my gods.

Easter road is your church.

[Speedy]

Somewhere between Atheist and Agnostic. God could exist but I highly doubt it.

[WeeRussell]

Have voted for what I was christened as - but I wouldn't claim to be the most religious person in the world, shall we say :greengrin

[Scouse Hibee]

WTF - I have stumbled onto an old firm forum!


Where's the option for religion has no place in my mind to associate it with football and being asked my religion on a football forum is wrong?

[Hibee87]

WTF - I have stumbled onto an old firm forum!


Where's the option for religion has no place in my mind to associate it with football and being asked my religion on a football forum is wrong?Unless this post has been moved from the main board, whats the problem with starting it in the holy ground? :confused:

I am a firm non believer in god and I like to discuss the subject. I have close family who are very religious and it really does confuse the hell out of me that people of are in all aspects of life very clever people but seem brainwashed into believing a fictional book

[Slavers]

But why do many of the elites worship Satan? That's the real question.

[Jack]

Had a discussion in the pub like this recently and I discovered one of my long term pals actually went to church!

Never found out which franchise and nobody else declared either!

It's wasn't important. More important was being good friends and all that involved.

[easty]

No options for Scientology or Mormon in the voting...or Jedi even. All more interesting made up stories than Christianity.

[heretoday]

Episcopal. I'm outside in the churchyard but as I get older I'm inching closer to the door.

[Future17]

WTF - I have stumbled onto an old firm forum!


Where's the option for religion has no place in my mind to associate it with football and being asked my religion on a football forum is wrong?

Seems ironic to me that you're having a moan about the mix of football and religion on "The Holy Ground" part of the messageboard. :greengrin

[snooky]

Where's Agnostic?
(or "Other")

[heretoday]

Had a discussion in the pub like this recently and I discovered one of my long term pals actually went to church!

Never found out which franchise and nobody else declared either!

It's wasn't important. More important was being good friends and all that involved.

Perhaps he goes to church because he and his family always have.

I think a sense of nostalgia for the familiar words and songs of childhood is a strong part of the churchgoing mindset, rather than any particularly fervent belief in the deity. I know it is for me.

Perhaps he just likes the music and the exciting social scene!

[Geo_1875]

Unless this post has been moved from the main board, whats the problem with starting it in the holy ground? :confused:

I am a firm non believer in god and I like to discuss the subject. I have close family who are very religious and it really does confuse the hell out of me that people of are in all aspects of life very clever people but seem brainwashed into believing a fictional book

Are you a convert to the Church of Condescending Assholes or is it a family tradition?

[Navids Numpties]

Unless this post has been moved from the main board, whats the problem with starting it in the holy ground? :confused:

I am a firm non believer in god and I like to discuss the subject. I have close family who are very religious and it really does confuse the hell out of me that people of are in all aspects of life very clever people but seem brainwashed into believing a fictional book

Was indeed posted onto the holy ground.

[Hibee87]

Are you a convert to the Church of Condescending Assholes or is it a family tradition?
Is it condescending for a religious person to tell me I am wrong for not believing in it?
The most amazing thing I think religion has achieved is not that people believe it, but making everyone else feel and think its wrong to point our how absurd it is.
If i were to say to you or anyone else I believe in dragons, despite there being no physical evidence other than a book telling me they are real I would rightly be laughed at and ridiculed. In my opinion the existence of god is the same.

[Navids Numpties]

Is it condescending for a religious person to tell me I am wrong for not believing in it?
The most amazing thing I think religion has achieved is not that people believe it, but making everyone else feel and think its wrong to point our how absurd it is.
If i were to say to you or anyone else I believe in dragons, despite there being no physical evidence other than a book telling me they are real I would rightly be laughed at and ridiculed. In my opinion the existence of god is the same.

I am a Christian and would never tell you that you are wrong for not believing in God. IMO there are far more Athiest's who would ridicule me for believing in God because there is no evidence of him. It's two way thing.

[northstandhibby]

I am a Christian and would never tell you that you are wrong for not believing in God. IMO there are far more Athiest's who would ridicule me for believing in God because there is no evidence of him. It's two way thing.

Great post.

I too am a Christian who would never be afraid or ashamed to openly admit it no matter the atheist or disbeliever who might ridicule. I'm always respectful of everyone's views and other religions as long as they are tolerant and peaceful.

glory glory

[Hibrandenburg]

I've no problem with people who are religious, it's a free world and should stay that way. My problem is when it gets organised, it then can take on a whole new shape and inevitably becomes political. By all means believe in whichever deity you wish to, just don't expect me to share, abide by or agree to the views you gain from your beliefs.

[Hibee87]

I am a Christian and would never tell you that you are wrong for not believing in God. IMO there are far more Athiest's who would ridicule me for believing in God because there is no evidence of him. It's two way thing.

Don't take this the wrongn way, and I don't mean to sound patronising or ridicule you but believing in something with no evidence and not believing in something because of no evidence are 2 different things.

I am by no means on a mission here to offend or ridicule anyone who doesn't think like me, and if someone is religious and quietly goes about their business then that's their choice. What I find with a lot, not all, religious people is they find it acceptable to preach their beliefs to me, because most religious text tell them to spread the word but get offended at me arguing against their beliefs

[NAE NOOKIE]

It really doesn't matter if someone has a religion or has none for that matter ........ the only two classes of people that really impact on anybody's life are assholes and non assholes.

For my part, I identify as Christian, though as my mum would often say to me "if you were up in court accused of being one, would there be enough evidence to convict you?" ....... I don't know, probably not .... but I struggle with the terrible problem that I've yet to meet anybody who can prove to me that God in some form doesn't exist :greengrin

I have discussed religion many times with folk, but what has always struck me is that the most passionate, vociferous and heated arguments I've come across in support of their point of view has always been from professed atheists. Like it or not for a lot of people their religion gives them a reason to hope, quite often in their very darkest hours ( my late first wife being a case in point ) and I cant for the life of me see why anybody would want to take that away from them just to prove what at the end of the day can only be an intellectual point from an atheists side of the argument.

I absolutely understand that for a lot of people their argument is that the removal of religion from the world would stop all the loonies who think their path to Paradise will be made wide and smooth by the vicious and from any sane persons point of view totally pointless slaughter of people who they have never met before, never mind did them any harm ...... I wouldn't for a second argue that there is no merit in that point of view, but it should also be remembered that many people are inspired by their religion to make huge sacrifices and commitments that also do a lot of good.

There will always be bad people, there will always be good people ..... that would be the case if the concept of religion had never existed, it seems to be in human DNA that we will always find a reason to put ourselves into opposing camps, sometimes to the extent that destruction of the other side becomes the mission. Sure, take away religion and you would stop the nutters who kill and persecute in its name ... but at the same time you would also take away the hope ( whether you agree with the concept its based on or not ) of the millions and millions out of whom the nutters are a tiny minority .... what you would not do away with is another type of 'belief' taking its place that would throw up the next set of murderous nut cases.

If it is an intellectual argument then from my personal point of view it probably boils down to this: If we are indeed merely the product of an accident of nature ( no I'm not a creationist, you don't have to disprove science to prove God ) and our lives serve no purpose other than to live, procreate, and die in a universe that science has proven will one day either expand to the point where no life is possible or retract to a point where no life is possible .... then what the hell was or is the point?

When you look at God many people make the point that if he does exist he must indeed be a cruel one to allow all of the terrible things that happen in the world, both man made and natural ...... but for the life of me I cant think of anything to blame on God that would be crueller on humanity than to finally find out that our existence was in the end utterly pointless.

Finally, I know that there is a theory that the universe had to eventually create a species like humanity ( we are perhaps one of many, who knows? ) the purpose of this creation being so that the universe could in effect be self aware, be able to study itself if you like and have a way to acknowledge its own existence ... but if you ask me that's the equivalent of saying the human race has gone through eons of evolution and progress in order to invent the mirror to look at ourselves in and opposable thumbs so that we could pick fluff out of our navels ....... hardly an inspiring thought.

Anyway that's me :greengrin

[RyeSloan]

It really doesn't matter if someone has a religion or has none for that matter ........ the only two classes of people that really impact on anybody's life are assholes and non assholes.

For my part, I identify as Christian, though as my mum would often say to me "if you were up in court accused of being one, would there be enough evidence to convict you?" ....... I don't know, probably not .... but I struggle with the terrible problem that I've yet to meet anybody who can prove to me that God in some form doesn't exist :greengrin

I have discussed religion many times with folk, but what has always struck me is that the most passionate, vociferous and heated arguments I've come across in support of their point of view has always been from professed atheists. Like it or not for a lot of people their religion gives them a reason to hope, quite often in their very darkest hours ( my late first wife being a case in point ) and I cant for the life of me see why anybody would want to take that away from them just to prove what at the end of the day can only be an intellectual point from an atheists side of the argument.

I absolutely understand that for a lot of people their argument is that the removal of religion from the world would stop all the loonies who think their path to Paradise will be made wide and smooth by the vicious and from any sane persons point of view totally pointless slaughter of people who they have never met before, never mind did them any harm ...... I wouldn't for a second argue that there is no merit in that point of view, but it should also be remembered that many people are inspired by their religion to make huge sacrifices and commitments that also do a lot of good.

There will always be bad people, there will always be good people ..... that would be the case if the concept of religion had never existed, it seems to be in human DNA that we will always find a reason to put ourselves into opposing camps, sometimes to the extent that destruction of the other side becomes the mission. Sure, take away religion and you would stop the nutters who kill and persecute in its name ... but at the same time you would also take away the hope ( whether you agree with the concept its based on or not ) of the millions and millions out of whom the nutters are a tiny minority .... what you would not do away with is another type of 'belief' taking its place that would throw up the next set of murderous nut cases.

If it is an intellectual argument then from my personal point of view it probably boils down to this: If we are indeed merely the product of an accident of nature ( no I'm not a creationist, you don't have to disprove science to prove God ) and our lives serve no purpose other than to live, procreate, and die in a universe that science has proven will one day either expand to the point where no life is possible or retract to a point where no life is possible .... then what the hell was or is the point?

When you look at God many people make the point that if he does exist he must indeed be a cruel one to allow all of the terrible things that happen in the world, both man made and natural ...... but for the life of me I cant think of anything to blame on God that would be crueller on humanity than to finally find out that our existence was in the end utterly pointless.

Finally, I know that there is a theory that the universe had to eventually create a species like humanity ( we are perhaps one of many, who knows? ) the purpose of this creation being so that the universe could in effect be self aware, be able to study itself if you like and have a way to acknowledge its own existence ... but if you ask me that's the equivalent of saying the human race has gone through eons of evolution and progress in order to invent the mirror to look at ourselves in and opposable thumbs so that we could pick fluff out of our navels ....... hardly an inspiring thought.

Anyway that's me :greengrin

Interesting perspective and in general I agree but I would suggest that the point of our existence is our existence...I really don't get the argument that there has to be something more beyond the life that is lived otherwise it's all pointless. Is life itself not the entire point? OK we could all do without the modern drudgery of paying 25 year mortgages but you get drift :wink:

[Hibs90]

Ahhh religion, biggest load of *****.

[Mr White]

I like some of Christplopher Brookmyre's thoughts on religious organisations. Particularly christians who pass judgement on athiests for not believing in the god that they worship. To which he responds:

There are hundreds of gods you don't believe in either, it just so happens that my list of gods i don't believe in is longer than yours. By one.

[Pretty Boy]

Was raised a Catholic and went to church until I was about 16. Stopped going for many years but have recently found myself drawn back on occasion.

No real idea why but I think the current Pope plays a part in my thinking. He seems a fundementally decent man and infinitely more liberal (by Catholic standards) than his 2 immediate predecessors. I really don't know what I am and I don't even know if I believe in God sometimes.

A Catholic who became an atheist who is now an agnostic who sometimes attends Catholic mass sums me up.

[Sir David Gray]

I would describe myself as a non involved Christian at the moment.

I was raised in the Church of Scotland and I used to go to Church with my brother, mum and grandmother on most Sundays throughout my childhood and early teens and was even going up until the age of around 18 or 19. However when my grandmother passed away a few years ago, my mum lost a lot of her faith and she hasn't been back since. I suppose I just followed her lead in that regard.

I still do believe in there being a God and I would class myself as a Christian if I was asked in a poll but I'm not as devout as I once was when I was growing up.

[northstandhibby]

I like some of Christplopher Brookmyre's thoughts on religious organisations. Particularly christians who pass judgement on athiests for not believing in the god that they worship. To which he responds:

There are hundreds of gods you don't believe in either, it just so happens that my list of gods i don't believe in is longer than yours. By one.

Why would the likes of Christopher Brookmyre feel the need to make such a snide remark against folk who believe in a higher peaceful deity?

glory glory

[Mr White]

Why would the likes of Christopher Brookmyre feel the need to make such a snide remark against folk who believe in a higher peaceful deity?

glory glory

I'm not sure about "the likes of" Christopher Brookmyre but that particular sentiment was expressed in a book by the actual Christopher Brookmyre in the context of those with religious beliefs casting judgment on those who don't. I don't see anything snide about it at all. Nobody knows for certain whether there is a higher deity but some people like to elevate their guesswork above that of others. That deserves ridicule imo.

[northstandhibby]

I'm not sure about "the likes of" Christopher Brookmyre but that particular sentiment was expressed in a book by the actual Christopher Brookmyre in the context of those with religious beliefs casting judgment on those who don't. I don't see anything snide about it at all. Nobody knows for certain whether there is a higher deity but some people like to elevate their guesswork above that of others. That deserves ridicule imo.

Please bud enlighten me and other Christian brothers who believe in ancient text and scripture why Christopher Brookmyre has any authority on 'guesswork'?

glory glory

[Mr White]

Please bud enlighten me and other Christian brothers who believe in ancient text and scripture why Christopher Brookmyre has any authority on 'guesswork'?

glory glory

He doesn't. He doesn't claim to either. I didn't say he does or he did.

[northstandhibby]

He doesn't. He doesn't claim to either. I didn't say he does or he did.

Correct answer.

Thank you.

glory glory

[Mr White]

Correct answer.

glory glory

He does like to ridicule dogma and intolerance however. So do I as it happens.

[northstandhibby]

He does like to ridicule dogma and intolerance however. So do I as it happens.

It seems to me the intolerant one is Mr Brookmyre?

glory glory

[Mr White]

It seems to me the intolerant one is Mr Brookmyre?

glory glory

You'd need to take that up with him. It'll be a difficult case to argue though imo.

[snooky]

It seems to me the intolerant one is Mr Brookmyre?

glory glory

For stating a fact? :dunno:

[northstandhibby]

You'd need to take that up with him. It'll be a difficult case to argue though imo.

I don't want to sound arrogant but I think I could very easily argue the case for Christianity. Compassion, kindness, charity, empathy, care, humanity, selflessness, truth, honesty, bravery - etc etc etc.

Maybe that's what the likes of Mr Brookmyre and others who argue against religion don't care for?

glory glory

[Mr White]

I don't want to sound arrogant but I think I could very easily argue the case for Christianity. Compassion, kindness, charity, empathy, care, humanity, selflessness, truth, honesty, bravery - etc etc etc.

Maybe that's what the likes of Mr Brookmyre and others who argue against religion don't care for?

glory glory

You're missing the point. He (and I) have no problem with people believing whatever the hell they want. He wasn't attacking or arguing against religion with that quote and neither was I. It's the suggestion by some with religious belief that everyone else is wrong and either in need of saving or due to face eternal damnation that deserves ridicule.

I had hoped the "passing judgment" part of my initial post was clear enough on that. I'm very much a live and let live kind of guy and don't have a lot of time for intolerance, religious or otherwise. I see enough of that on a regular basis in Ulster to know it's a pointless way to live.

[snooky]

I don't want to sound arrogant but I think I could very easily argue the case for Christianity. Compassion, kindness, charity, empathy, care, humanity, selflessness, truth, honesty, bravery - etc etc etc.

Maybe that's what the likes of Mr Brookmyre and others who argue against religion don't care for?

glory glory

Admirable qualities I grant you, NSH, but they are not confined to people of the Christian faith.

[northstandhibby]

You're missing the point. He (and I) have no problem with people believing whatever the hell they want. He wasn't attacking or arguing against religion with that quote and neither was I. It's the suggestion by some with religious belief that everyone else is wrong and either in need of saving or due to face eternal damnation that deserves ridicule.

I had hoped the "passing judgment" part of my initial post was clear enough on that. I'm very much a live and let live kind of guy and don't have a lot of time for intolerance, religious or otherwise. I see enough of that on a regular basis in Ulster to know it's a pointless way to live.

I'm genuinely apologetic if I missed the main point possibly being you and Mr Brookes feel a 'sense of freedom' from being exposed to the more fanatical extreme fringes of religion if I'm reading correctly?

From my own point of view I would find retaining the faith a comfort against the folks who use it to frighten other folk.

glory glory

[northstandhibby]

Admirable qualities I grant you, NSH, but they are not confined to people of the Christian faith.

Maybe not Snooky but they are a must have set of qualities for true Christians and not for others who may pretend to possess them.

glory glory

[Mr White]

I'm genuinely apologetic if I missed the main point possibly being you and Mr Brookes feel a 'sense of freedom' from being exposed to the more fanatical extreme fringes of religion if I'm reading correctly?

From my own point of view I would find retaining the faith a comfort against the folks who use it to frighten other folk.

glory glory

Sorry to hark back down the missing the point track again but that's an unlikely path for an aithiest to choose in the face of judgment from an intolerant Christian don't you think? :greengrin

[northstandhibby]

Sorry to hark back down the missing the point track again but that's an unlikely path for an aithiest to choose in the face of judgment from an intolerant Christian don't you think? :greengrin

As I was indeed sermonising from a normal tolerant Christian viewpoint it seems I entirely missed the point from an atheist vantage spot. Deary me. :greengrin.

glory glory

[21.5.16]

Just wondering what everyone's religion is and what the statistics are
Roman Catholic as my Mum and her family are all Irish Catholics, baptised as a baby, Dads staunch orange proddy side of the family came over to the replublic of ireland for my christening which makes me so happy and had my holy communion age 10.

Sent from my SM-A300FU using Tapatalk

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't want to sound arrogant but I think I could very easily argue the case for Christianity. Compassion, kindness, charity, empathy, care, humanity, selflessness, truth, honesty, bravery - etc etc etc.

Maybe that's what the likes of Mr Brookmyre and others who argue against religion don't care for?

glory glory

Great values but they certainly aren't exclusive to Christians, in fact many so called Christians practise exactly the opposite.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I don't want to sound arrogant but I think I could very easily argue the case for Christianity. Compassion, kindness, charity, empathy, care, humanity, selflessness, truth, honesty, bravery - etc etc etc.

Maybe that's what the likes of Mr Brookmyre and others who argue against religion don't care for?

glory glory

Yeah, the history of christianity is full of those virtues!

I think i get why people are religious, and i have close family who are quite devout chatholics.

Whay jars with me, both from an infellectual point of view andand also because of my interest in politics is just how obviously it has beem used, corrupted whatever into a political form of control (over history i mean, less so now).

Has anyone seen the film stigmata? I always thought the form of religion preached by the heretic was quite worthy. But it was only a film.

The other thing that annoys me is how churches lobby governments to have their beliefa taken into account in public policy making. Their beliefs only apply to their believers, and absolutely should not be foisted on society. Always likes alastair campbell's line about new labour - "we dont do god"

[Ryan69]

But why do many of the elites worship Satan? That's the real question.

Satanism is nothing todo with devil worshipping....it's about power.

[northstandhibby]

Great values but they certainly aren't exclusive to Christians, in fact many so called Christians practise exactly the opposite.

Maybe not but I far prefer folk to have a set of moral virtues or looser ones even and I'll give a reason why some want to break down such moral compasses.

I wrote some years ago now to the DWP arguing against medical decisions being taken by so called 'health professionals whom (normally nurses whom unlike doctors don't have to live by the loosely worded Hippocratic oath that sets out 'not to harm the patient') are under no obligation whatsoever to be truthful and honest when reporting back to the DWP and normally in some of the cases I've seen they the 'health professionals' are let's say - less than truthful and honest.

The purpose of the DWP was to break free from the doctor's Hippocratic oath moral compass whereby bypassing normal values of truth and honesty by hiring teams of folk who don't live by a similar set of moral virtues.

True Christians and true folks of other faiths would never abandon their moral compass to dishonestly assess a great number of disabled folk as being fit for work when they clearly were not.

I'm sure you'll understand the point I'm making.

glory glory

[Moulin Yarns]

It seems to me the intolerant one is Mr Brookmyre?

glory glory

Except, you are the one showing intolerance towards Christopher Brookmyre? And even misname him "Mr Brookes" FFS as if you think it 'lightens' the tone.

[Speedy]

Maybe not but I far prefer folk to have a set of moral virtues or looser ones even and I'll give a reason why some want to break down such moral compasses.

I wrote some years ago now to the DWP arguing against medical decisions being taken by so called 'health professionals whom (normally nurses whom unlike doctors don't have to live by the loosely worded Hippocratic oath that sets out 'not to harm the patient') are under no obligation whatsoever to be truthful and honest when reporting back to the DWP and normally in some of the cases I've seen they the 'health professionals' are let's say - less than truthful and honest.

The purpose of the DWP was to break free from the doctor's Hippocratic oath moral compass whereby bypassing normal values of truth and honesty by hiring teams of folk who don't live by a similar set of moral virtues.

True Christians and true folks of other faiths would never abandon their moral compass to dishonestly assess a great number of disabled folk as being fit for work when they clearly were not.

I'm sure you'll understand the point I'm making.

glory glory

You're right in that it's nice for people to abide by their morals and do what's right, honest and fair.

Whether they are religious or not shouldn't come in to it.

[PeeJay]

...... but for the life of me I cant think of anything to blame on God that would be crueller on humanity than to finally find out that our existence was in the end utterly pointless.



Leaving "God" out of the equation need not mean that life is "utterly pointless", surely? Maybe life is like being at the the Olympics, i.e. it is not winning that is important, but simply being there and taking part in the experience?

[Moulin Yarns]

Especially for you, Northstandhibby. Enjoy.


The notion that faith - belief in spite of an absence of proof or even in the face of compelling contrary evidence - is a form of mental and moral fortitude needs not merely to be challenged, but to be given the full point-and-laugh treatment, so that we can see afresh how this absurdity deserves ridicule rather than reverence.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/aug/01/comment.religion

[northstandhibby]

Especially for you, Northstandhibby. Enjoy.



https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/aug/01/comment.religion

Dearie Dearie Dearie me.

I don't wish to be insulting so its better I don't comment on Mr Brookmyre.

:aok:

glory glory

[Moulin Yarns]

Dearie Dearie Dearie me.

I don't wish to be insulting so its better I don't comment on Mr Brookmyre.

:aok:

glory glory


RESULT :greengrin

[snooky]

Especially for you, Northstandhibby. Enjoy.



https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/aug/01/comment.religion

Sorry, GF. I could resist the connection. :greengrin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd5ZLJWQmss

[Moulin Yarns]

Sorry, GF. I could resist the connection. :greengrin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd5ZLJWQmss

Yeah breaker one nine this here's the Unsinkable Rubber Duck

[AndyM_1875]

Athiest/Agnostic/Dudist but y'know, to each their own.
The religion transplant just never worked with me although my mum was a regular Church attender and I studied RE in school..... I just never really got it and it isn't part of my life. My mum abandoned her faith when I was 13 after her mother died, it didn't give her comfort rather she felt incredibly let down by it.

But I'm not going to criticise those who follow a faith, if it works for you then I'm happy for you. In fact I do find that whilst I have enjoyed the works of Christopher Hitchens I cannot quite stick Richard Dawkins though his work as a scientist is superb he often comes over as arrogant and bombastic when engaging those who follow a faith.

[Moulin Yarns]

I used to be a regular at Church of Scotland Sunday School but evolved to Darwinism. Admittedly I'm a bit of an old fossil, no bones about it.

[snooky]

I used to be a regular at Church of Scotland Sunday School but evolved to Darwinism. Admittedly I'm a bit of an old fossil, no bones about it.

Altogether now :singing:
"Charlie is a Darwin, a Darwin, a Darwin
Charlie is a Darwin, evolution's pioneer"

[northstandhibby]

Incredibly disappointing to find over half who've voted are non-religious atheists. I don't think its co-incidence the GM voting poll on the other thread is showing a big nationalist majority.

Dearie me.

I'm confident if this thread had been on the main board there would be a majority of folk with a religious outlook. However we won't know.

glory glory

[CropleyWasGod]

Incredibly disappointing to find over half who've voted are non-religious atheists. I don't think its co-incidence the GM voting poll on the other thread is showing a big nationalist majority.

Dearie me.

I'm confident if this thread had been on the main board there would be a majority of folk with a religious outlook. However we won't know.

glory glory

What's the link?

[northstandhibby]

What's the link?

The link being I think its no coincidence, is that okay?

glory glory

[CropleyWasGod]

The link being I think its no coincidence, is that okay?

glory glory

I'm struggling to see any link, which is why I asked for clarification.

[Mon Dieu4]

The link being I think its no coincidence, is that okay?

glory glory

Are you trying to insinuate that being a Nationalist has any direct correlation with if you are religious or not?

[northstandhibby]

I'm struggling to see any link, which is why I asked for clarification.

I simply put two and two together and sometimes make the correct answer not always being the case. Just think there's one okay? There's the clarification for you, I just think there's one.

glory glory

[CropleyWasGod]

I simply put two and two together and sometimes make the correct answer not always being the case. Just think there's one okay? There's the clarification for you, I just think there's one.

glory glory

So the link is you don't like non-religious people and you don't like Nationalists?

:greengrin

[northstandhibby]

So the link is you don't like non-religious people and you don't like Nationalists?

:greengrin

Gosh that was putting 2 and 2 together and making 2000 000 o00.

:greengrin

I'm just very surprised especially at the religious poll albeit based on a very small number.

glory glory

[northstandhibby]

Are you trying to insinuate that being a Nationalist has any direct correlation with if you are religious or not?

I'm simply looking at the two polls and the results are so far the Nationalists and Atheists are winning very comfortably indeed. That's the last I'm saying on it.

glory glory

[SanFranHibs]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

— Epicurus, philosopher (c. 341-270 BCE)


I really don't care if people believe in a God. I just wish they would not confuse God and Christianity with peace, compassion and generosity. Indeed, I wish they would stop confusing the so called Jesus Christ with Christianity.

[Hibrandenburg]

Incredibly disappointing to find over half who've voted are non-religious atheists. I don't think its co-incidence the GM voting poll on the other thread is showing a big nationalist majority.

Dearie me.

I'm confident if this thread had been on the main board there would be a majority of folk with a religious outlook. However we won't know.

glory glory

Awe FFS, it's bad enough that project fear were telling us Scotland can't stand on its own but apparently now we're also going to hell. You don't happen to live in Falkirk do you? :wink:

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm simply looking at the two polls and the results are so far the Nationalists and Atheists are winning very comfortably indeed. That's the last I'm saying on it.

glory glory

No, you also said you don't think it's just coincidence.

[northstandhibby]

No, you also said you don't think it's just coincidence.

If that's what I said that's what I think.

I've already said I'm saying no more on this subject so don't expect an answer from me if you were expecting one. No disrespect to you.

glory glory

[Hibrandenburg]

If that's what I said that's what I think.

I've already said I'm saying no more on this subject so don't expect an answer from me if you were expecting one. No disrespect to you.

glory glory

So no disrespect to me and the other people that want independence but we're apparently influenced by our atheist/agnostic beliefs? I'd find that pretty insulting if it wasn't completely ludicrous. :crazy:

[CropleyWasGod]

So no disrespect to me and the other people that want independence but we're apparently influenced by our atheist/agnostic beliefs? I'd find that pretty insulting if it wasn't completely ludicrous. :crazy:

To be fair, it's on the internet, so it must be true.

https://voat.co/v/HeavenonEarth/comments/1148835

[Hibrandenburg]

To be fair, it's on the internet, so it must be true.

https://voat.co/v/HeavenonEarth/comments/1148835

:faf: Did I just visit the twilight zone. But at least it'll be me doing the burning, that's what antichrist do isn't it?

[Mr White]

Incredibly disappointing to find over half who've voted are non-religious atheists. I don't think its co-incidence the GM voting poll on the other thread is showing a big nationalist majority.

Dearie me.

I'm confident if this thread had been on the main board there would be a majority of folk with a religious outlook. However we won't know.

glory glory

Why is it incredibly disappointing? It really doesn't matter what other people believe as long as you're comfortable with your own beliefs surely? We're a football club not a church after all and it's to our club's great credit that varied outlooks and beliefs are welcome and accepted within our support imo.

As for the political link, that's just utterly bizarre.

[northstandhibby]

Why is it incredibly disappointing? It really doesn't matter what other people believe as long as you're comfortable with your own beliefs surely? We're a football club not a church after all and it's to our club's great credit that varied outlooks and beliefs are welcome and accepted within our support imo.

As for the political link, that's just utterly bizarre.

You make some civilised points worthy enough for me to break my silence on the subject.

I was just shocked to see the amount of atheists compared to those of a religious faith especially in light of the Christian origins of our club, albeit its only a small number of votes cast.

I am very comfortable with all faiths and none at all being supporters at the club of course i am.

As for the political link I was merely putting two and two together.

That's the last now.

glory glory

[The Harp Awakes]

You make some civilised points worthy enough for me to break my silence on the subject.

I was just shocked to see the amount of atheists compared to those of a religious faith especially in light of the Christian origins of our club, albeit its only a small number of votes cast.

I am very comfortable with all faiths and none at all being supporters at the club of course i am.

As for the political link I was merely putting two and two together.

That's the last now.

glory glory

Looks like the question of whether there is a correlation between atheism and Scottish nationalism is a bit more complex:

https://www.premier.org.uk/News/UK/Catholics-voted-yes-Protestants-no-claims-Salmond

Catholics and those of no faith are more likely to be pro nationalist and Protestants less likely.

[Speedy]

Incredibly disappointing to find over half who've voted are non-religious atheists. I don't think its co-incidence the GM voting poll on the other thread is showing a big nationalist majority.

Dearie me.

I'm confident if this thread had been on the main board there would be a majority of folk with a religious outlook. However we won't know.

glory glory

Maybe we should allow atheists to live a little before they receive their hibs.net voting rights?

[Hibrandenburg]

You make some civilised points worthy enough for me to break my silence on the subject.

I was just shocked to see the amount of atheists compared to those of a religious faith especially in light of the Christian origins of our club, albeit its only a small number of votes cast.

I am very comfortable with all faiths and none at all being supporters at the club of course i am.

As for the political link I was merely putting two and two together.

That's the last now.

glory glory

No, you've put 2 and 2 together and got 666.

But this is typical of one explanation as to why people like to believe in something there is no proof of or even proof that actually refutes their belief. Humans have evolved and thrived partly because of our ability to recognise patterns. The stars in the sky for example, we recognised the correlation between the stars and the seasons, when food would be plenty and where. It's our ability to recognise patterns and attach meaning to them that gives us a great advantage over competitors. Unfortunately when we can't explain something we still look for answers and if no explanation is forthcoming we tend to make assumptions that can explain what we're seeing, this is the origin of gods, ghosts and even UFOs. We also like to put people in boxes for the same reason, it helps us easily explain characteristics we don't understand. You've done both in your post attributing atheism with a certain political persuasion and it's not only insulting to atheists but also to people who are religious but would like to see Scotland independent.

You say you're not going to say any more on the subject but I suspect that's because you know you made a mistake but are unwilling to admit it. Expect more churlish remarks until you do.

[Hibrandenburg]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

— Epicurus, philosopher (c. 341-270 BCE)


I really don't care if people believe in a God. I just wish they would not confuse God and Christianity with peace, compassion and generosity. Indeed, I wish they would stop confusing the so called Jesus Christ with Christianity.

Love that quote.

[northstandhibby]

No, you've put 2 and 2 together and got 666.

But this is typical of one explanation as to why people like to believe in something there is no proof of or even proof that actually refutes their belief. Humans have evolved and thrived partly because of our ability to recognise patterns. The stars in the sky for example, we recognised the correlation between the stars and the seasons, when food would be plenty and where. It's our ability to recognise patterns and attach meaning to them that gives us a great advantage over competitors. Unfortunately when we can't explain something we still look for answers and if no explanation is forthcoming we tend to make assumptions that can explain what we're seeing, this is the origin of gods, ghosts and even UFOs. We also like to put people in boxes for the same reason, it helps us easily explain characteristics we don't understand. You've done both in your post attributing atheism with a certain political persuasion and it's not only insulting to atheists but also to people who are religious but would like to see Scotland independent.

You say you're not going to say any more on the subject but I suspect that's because you know you made a mistake but are unwilling to admit it. Expect more churlish remarks until you do.

I'm saying not a dicky bird more on the subject. Be churlish if you wish. I certainly did not set out to insult anyone and if I did it certainly wasn't intentional.

glory glory

Reason for edit - cheap shot.

[easty]

Makes nonsense correlation.

Backs it up with more nonsense.

Tries to take some kind of higher ground...only some responses to your nonsense are "worthy" of your reply?

I'm putting 2+2 together here, and getting...dumpling.

[Slavers]

The elites are mostly Luciferian and these are the *******s that run the world.

[JeMeSouviens]

There is bound to be some correlation given the prevalence of the more mature end of society among both No voters and church attenders. Doesn't imply causation though. :wink:

Btw, I'm as atheist as they come. :greengrin

No problem with anyone else believing whatever they like but I don't like any of the churches having influence over the state.

[RyeSloan]

Makes nonsense correlation.

Backs it up with more nonsense.

Tries to take some kind of higher ground...only some responses to your nonsense are "worthy" of your reply?

I'm putting 2+2 together here, and getting...dumpling.

That made me laugh!

Not heard someone called a dumpling for ages [emoji23][emoji106]

[Mr Grieves]

Incredibly disappointing to find over half who've voted are non-religious atheists. I don't think its co-incidence the GM voting poll on the other thread is showing a big nationalist majority.

Dearie me.

I'm confident if this thread had been on the main board there would be a majority of folk with a religious outlook. However we won't know.

glory glory

What the **** are you on about?

[Mr Grieves]

Makes nonsense correlation.

Backs it up with more nonsense.

Tries to take some kind of higher ground...only some responses to your nonsense are "worthy" of your reply?

I'm putting 2+2 together here, and getting...dumpling.

Ha Ha, bang on

[Just Alf]

Makes nonsense correlation.

Backs it up with more nonsense.

Tries to take some kind of higher ground...only some responses to your nonsense are "worthy" of your reply?

I'm putting 2+2 together here, and getting...dumpling.

If I was drinking coffee it would now be all over my keyboard :greengrin

[lord bunberry]

I'm simply looking at the two polls and the results are so far the Nationalists and Atheists are winning very comfortably indeed. That's the last I'm saying on it.

glory glory
That's known as a false correlation.

[Moulin Yarns]

Incredibly disappointing to find over half who've voted are non-religious atheists. I don't think its co-incidence the GM voting poll on the other thread is showing a big nationalist majority.

Dearie me.

I'm confident if this thread had been on the main board there would be a majority of folk with a religious outlook. However we won't know.

glory glory

That has to be the most crass comment I have ever seen on any forum.

What information do you have, that is not available to the rest of us, that the 25 people who have declared themselves to be 'non-religious atheists' (are there any other kind of atheist he asks himself?) are the same 25 who offered the opinion that they would vote SNP in the General Election?

The coincidence you see has no basis in fact, it is just a coincidence. To suggest there is any correlation between religion and voting intention is so middle ages. Do you realise we have enough problems with religion and football mixing in this country that to suggest there is any link between religion and politics is really not helpful (look at the middle East, or Northern Ireland* to see how that played out!)

Your, apologies in advance, 'holier than thou' attitude towards those 'non-religious atheists' that you consider lesser than you just because you believe them to support a different political party (and are not Christian) is bordering on the type of hatred that is usually aimed towards races and religions by right wing fascists and is not welcome, and certainly doesn't help your case any.



Rant over.


* I know they still vote along broadly religious lines in NI.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Well i think its fair to say that this thread has taken a slightly unexpected turn...

Me amd my mates were outside montfords before the semi - amd when the police came to tell us, in typically aggressive glasgow polis way, that we wouldn't be getting in, a younger guy behind me asked the policeman, quick as a flash, if it was because he was jewish, and started accusing the glasgow policeman of hating edinburgh jews. It made me smile anyway, im not sure the policeman knew what to say!

So wr even have that well known tribe of Edinburgh jews in our support... no idea who 'they' vote for though!

[easty]

Well i think its fair to say that this thread has taken a slightly unexpected turn...

Me amd my mates were outside montfords before the semi - amd when the police came to tell us, in typically aggressive glasgow polis way, that we wouldn't be getting in, a younger guy behind me asked the policeman, quick as a flash, if it was because he was jewish, and started accusing the glasgow policeman of hating edinburgh jews. It made me smile anyway, im not sure the policeman knew what to say!

So wr even have that well known tribe of Edinburgh jews in our support... no idea who 'they' vote for though!

When we turned up at Montfords (bout half an hour before kick off) it looked fairly quiet inside, but they weren't letting anyone else in. No sure why?

[lord bunberry]

When we turned up at Montfords (bout half an hour before kick off) it looked fairly quiet inside, but they weren't letting anyone else in. No sure why?
Are you Jewish? :greengrin

[easty]

Are you Jewish? :greengrin

Dunno. I'm voting SNP, so what religion does that make me? :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Dunno. I'm voting SNP, so what religion does that make me? :greengrin

Heathen :wink:

[Hibrandenburg]

That has to be the most crass comment I have ever seen on any forum.

What information do you have, that is not available to the rest of us, that the 25 people who have declared themselves to be 'non-religious atheists' (are there any other kind of atheist he asks himself?) are the same 25 who offered the opinion that they would vote SNP in the General Election?

The coincidence you see has no basis in fact, it is just a coincidence. To suggest there is any correlation between religion and voting intention is so middle ages. Do you realise we have enough problems with religion and football mixing in this country that to suggest there is any link between religion and politics is really not helpful (look at the middle East, or Northern Ireland* to see how that played out!)

Your, apologies in advance, 'holier than thou' attitude towards those 'non-religious atheists' that you consider lesser than you just because you believe them to support a different political party (and are not Christian) is bordering on the type of hatred that is usually aimed towards races and religions by right wing fascists and is not welcome, and certainly doesn't help your case any.



Rant over.


* I know they still vote along broadly religious lines in NI.

To be fair I've done a similar scientifically based study as Northern Stand, I've asked all my work colleagues who they intend to vote for in the election and was surprised to see that there's a correlation between those colleagues who I find to be ****s and those who will vote Tory. I therefore surmise that all Tories are ****s.

[CropleyWasGod]

When we turned up at Montfords (bout half an hour before kick off) it looked fairly quiet inside, but they weren't letting anyone else in. No sure why?

Montfords is well know as a hang-out for the Mount Florida chapter of Hamas.

[G B Young]

Incredibly disappointing to find over half who've voted are non-religious atheists. I don't think its co-incidence the GM voting poll on the other thread is showing a big nationalist majority.

Dearie me.

I'm confident if this thread had been on the main board there would be a majority of folk with a religious outlook. However we won't know.

glory glory

Had the question been 'Were you christened/baptised?' you'd probably see a bigger number confirming that they are, by that token, of a certain faith.

I was christened but like many who were I've never regarded myself as religious. However, I can vouch for what wonderfully peaceful and therapeutic places churches (of any faith) can be if you simply drop in when passing at any time of day for a quiet few moments of reflection - not necessarily religious reflection but just a gathering of thoughts away from the ever more manic world outside. The amazing architecture alone in some of these buildings can be inspiring and in a sense uplifting.

That all probably sounds a bit daft, but it's as close as I'd say I get to being 'religious'.

[Mantis Toboggan]

That has to be the most crass comment I have ever seen on any forum.

What information do you have, that is not available to the rest of us, that the 25 people who have declared themselves to be 'non-religious atheists' (are there any other kind of atheist he asks himself?) are the same 25 who offered the opinion that they would vote SNP in the General Election?

The coincidence you see has no basis in fact, it is just a coincidence. To suggest there is any correlation between religion and voting intention is so middle ages. Do you realise we have enough problems with religion and football mixing in this country that to suggest there is any link between religion and politics is really not helpful (look at the middle East, or Northern Ireland* to see how that played out!)

Your, apologies in advance, 'holier than thou' attitude towards those 'non-religious atheists' that you consider lesser than you just because you believe them to support a different political party (and are not Christian) is bordering on the type of hatred that is usually aimed towards races and religions by right wing fascists and is not welcome, and certainly doesn't help your case any.



Rant over.


* I know they still vote along broadly religious lines in NI.

Well done that man. The idea that being religious is in any way preferable to being an atheist is absolutely laughable. Who bases their life on a bunch of fairy tales?

[Mantis Toboggan]

Had the question been 'Were you christened/baptised?' you'd probably see a bigger number confirming that they are, by that token, of a certain faith.

I was christened but like many who were I've never regarded myself as religious. However, I can vouch for what wonderfully peaceful and therapeutic places churches (of any faith) can be if you simply drop in when passing at any time of day for a quiet few moments of reflection - not necessarily religious reflection but just a gathering of thoughts away from the ever more manic world outside. The amazing architecture alone in some of these buildings can be inspiring and in a sense uplifting.

That all probably sounds a bit daft, but it's as close as I'd say I get to being 'religious'.

Agree that the church does provide a useful social service to communities. That's kind of 'soft' religion which is fine in itself. But it also goes hand in hand with full on religion which is largely divisive.

[Colr]

Agree that the church does provide a useful social service to communities. That's kind of 'soft' religion which is fine in itself. But it also goes hand in hand with full on religion which is largely divisive.

A goog proportion of charity work is done bu people of a religious persuasion as well.

As an aetheist, I have to recognise that. There is no god but religion doesnprovide people with a philosophical construct for living their lives which, for a large part is built around the priniciples for being a good person and the basis to examine and consider how they behave.

I think it falls on atheists to do the same but we do have to work it out more for ourselves and don't have the support network to assist.

[northstandhibby]

Had the question been 'Were you christened/baptised?' you'd probably see a bigger number confirming that they are, by that token, of a certain faith.

I was christened but like many who were I've never regarded myself as religious. However, I can vouch for what wonderfully peaceful and therapeutic places churches (of any faith) can be if you simply drop in when passing at any time of day for a quiet few moments of reflection - not necessarily religious reflection but just a gathering of thoughts away from the ever more manic world outside. The amazing architecture alone in some of these buildings can be inspiring and in a sense uplifting.

That all probably sounds a bit daft, but it's as close as I'd say I get to being 'religious'.

Not at all.

The cathedrals and churches are indeed tremendously inspiring. There is a deep feeling of peace and tranquility when stepping into their unique surroundings and are suitable places for those who simply wish to pause and reflect on life or those who are no longer with us etc.

glory glory

[northstandhibby]

A goog proportion of charity work is done bu people of a religious persuasion as well.

As an aetheist, I have to recognise that. There is no god but religion doesnprovide people with a philosophical construct for living their lives which, for a large part is built around the priniciples for being a good person and the basis to examine and consider how they behave.

I think it falls on atheists to do the same but we do have to work it out more for ourselves and don't have the support network to assist.

You make very good thought provoking points bud.

The only one I would disagree with is the no god part and that's obviously a highly personal choice for myself to choose to believe.

glory glory

[ronaldo7]

Makes nonsense correlation.

Backs it up with more nonsense.

Tries to take some kind of higher ground...only some responses to your nonsense are "worthy" of your reply?

I'm putting 2+2 together here, and getting...dumpling.

18460:greengrin

[Stranraer]

Catholic, although not a very good one. I haven't been to mass in ages due to transport issues but I intend to go back as soon as I get my licence.

[Mantis Toboggan]

A goog proportion of charity work is done bu people of a religious persuasion as well.

As an aetheist, I have to recognise that. There is no god but religion doesnprovide people with a philosophical construct for living their lives which, for a large part is built around the priniciples for being a good person and the basis to examine and consider how they behave.

I think it falls on atheists to do the same but we do have to work it out more for ourselves and don't have the support network to assist.

A lot of the ethics in Christianity are fine and indeed unarguable. But you can also look to things like ****ian or virtue ethics which will tell you the same and more but based on something closer to reality and without all the other negative aspects of religon.

[Colr]

A lot of the ethics in Christianity are fine and indeed unarguable. But you can also look to things like ****ian or virtue ethics which will tell you the same and more but based on something closer to reality and without all the other negative aspects of religon.

Indeed.

I left my son to make his own mind up about religion. He decided he was an atheist so I took him through a number of philosophical schools of thought (with the help of a book!!) to help make sure he still thinks about life and his actions. Funnily enough he gets top marks in RE anyway and the school are very supportive of all points of view as long as they are considered.

I have to say it stand it contrast to the day I said I was an atheist in primary school!!! ****!! There was hell to pay that day, I can tell you!!

[barcahibs]

As a non SNP supporting athiest :/ I've always felt that the church does serve a useful role in society - providing hope for those who dont have any and comfort for those who have been bereaved. I can't see a problem with that really so long as it doesn't become exploitation by those with power within the church structure.

The only time i have any real problem with religion is when it tries to force its views/rules on society as a whole.

I used to agree with the above statement on churches being a place of tranquility and awe... But a few years ago I visited the Vatican and as I walked around I just felt myself getting angry about the amount of wealth and social effort a structure like that represented.

It was the first time I'd ever experienced a feeling like that, but its stuck with me and really has begun to colour my view on religion.

Local religious stuctures/people, embedded within a community, I can suppprt to a certain extent but I do find the idea of the levels above that to be pretty repellent.

(I dont mean that to be aimed at catholicism obviously, it was the vatican that sparked the feeling but i think most organised religions have the same issue.)

Some churches do great work in the community but i think thats down to the people not the religion. I suspect the people involved would find another focus for their good works absent the church.

[northstandhibby]

As a non SNP supporting athiest :/ I've always felt that the church does serve a useful role in society - providing hope for those who dont have any and comfort for those who have been bereaved. I can't see a problem with that really so long as it doesn't become exploitation by those with power within the church structure.

The only time i have any real problem with religion is when it tries to force its views/rules on society as a whole.

I used to agree with the above statement on churches being a place of tranquility and awe... But a few years ago I visited the Vatican and as I walked around I just felt myself getting angry about the amount of wealth and social effort a structure like that represented.

It was the first time I'd ever experienced a feeling like that, but its stuck with me and really has begun to colour my view on religion.

Local religious stuctures/people, embedded within a community, I can suppprt to a certain extent but I do find the idea of the levels above that to be pretty repellent.

(I dont mean that to be aimed at catholicism obviously, it was the vatican that sparked the feeling but i think most organised religions have the same issue.)

Some churches do great work in the community but i think thats down to the people not the religion. I suspect the people involved would find another focus for their good works absent the church.

Most of the folk I know who involve themselves with the Christian faith do so for no reward bud other than to serve their beliefs. Without such folk there would be a chasm filled with those of ulterior motives. Religion keeps those in power who have no morals in check. The state that has no moral compass is for me one that can do what it likes to the 'plebs' and believe me that's not a good thing. We need checks and balances.

glory glory

[Mantis Toboggan]

A lot of the ethics in Christianity are fine and indeed unarguable. But you can also look to things like ****ian or virtue ethics which will tell you the same and more but based on something closer to reality and without all the other negative aspects of religon.

Swear filter has done me there.
I was of course referring to the great Immanuel K ant.

[Hibrandenburg]

Most of the folk I know who involve themselves with the Christian faith do so for no reward bud other than to serve their beliefs. Without such folk there would be a chasm filled with those of ulterior motives. Religion keeps those in power who have no morals in check. The state that has no moral compass is for me one that can do what it likes to the 'plebs' and believe me that's not a good thing. We need checks and balances.

glory glory

I'd have to disagree with most of that and suggest the opposite is true. Where ever you look around the world and see religion creeping into government you'll find conflict, war and social unrest. Some of the world's most ghoulish regimes have been religiously motivated or at least used religion as a way into power. Of course there have also been atheistic movements that also been gruesome but throughout the centuries they've been dwarfed by religious zealots and opportunists. The thought of religion steering political power sends a cold shiver down my spine and together with fascism it would be one of the few things that would make me take up arms again.

[danhibees1875]

I'm surprised that almost half of people are religious. That doesn't really correlate with what I've experienced throughout school, university​, and work.

I'm not religious, but I have no issues with people who choose to be. I recognise religion can, and does, do a lot of good in the world while also being at the centre of a lot of the bad unfortunately (when not practiced as it is intended).


A goog proportion of charity work is done bu people of a religious persuasion as well.

As an aetheist, I have to recognise that. There is no god but religion doesnprovide people with a philosophical construct for living their lives which, for a large part is built around the priniciples for being a good person and the basis to examine and consider how they behave.

I think it falls on atheists to do the same but we do have to work it out more for ourselves and don't have the support network to assist.

I think that surmises it nicely tbh. :aok:

[northstandhibby]

I'd have to disagree with most of that and suggest the opposite is true. Where ever you look around the world and see religion creeping into government you'll find conflict, war and social unrest. Some of the world's most ghoulish regimes have been religiously motivated or at least used religion as a way into power. Of course there have also been atheistic movements that also been gruesome but throughout the centuries they've been dwarfed by religious zealots and opportunists. The thought of religion steering political power sends a cold shiver down my spine and together with fascism it would be one of the few things that would make me take up arms again.

Some fair points in what you say.

I still think though that Europe is very broadly a set of countries with Christian ethics at its center allied with diversity and ever evolving human rights and is all the better for it.

I don't know much about atheism to be frank with you and I've never met any prior (sheltered life possibly :greengrin) but a quick glance shows atheism is almost singularly for being a non-believer?

There's so much more to Christianity than simply believing in a higher being with ancient philosophers and texts having developed Christian ethics and morals over many centuries that help to maintain a decent society with freedoms and prevents abuses by those in power who would do so. I think there are many out there who would abuse 'plebs' like us without such checks and balances by folk looking out for them and holding them to account.

Adolf Hitler is believed to have rejected Christianity and its well known what he did and I'm not saying he was an atheist because I don't know if he was or not.

I'm not against atheists in any shape or form, but I do believe in Christianity however and it has a very important role in helping to keep those in power in check.

glory glory

[CropleyWasGod]

Most of the folk I know who involve themselves with the Christian faith do so for no reward bud other than to serve their beliefs. Without such folk there would be a chasm filled with those of ulterior motives. Religion keeps those in power who have no morals in check. The state that has no moral compass is for me one that can do what it likes to the 'plebs' and believe me that's not a good thing. We need checks and balances.

glory glory
There are those who would suggest that Saudi Arabia, a state based on religion, has little or no moral compass.

On the other hand, France, with its avowed secular approach.... would you say that it has no moral compass?

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[northstandhibby]

There are those who would suggest that Saudi Arabia, a state based on religion, has little or no moral compass.

On the other hand, France, with its avowed secular approach.... would you say that it has no moral compass?

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

I don't know would be the honest answer. I touched on some points highlighting my thoughts on Christianity and that I don't know anything about Atheism. I believe Christianity to be a force for good and will never change on that overarching viewpoint. I'll be attending the evening service tonight locally as I had more than a good few drinks last night as I'm off until Tuesday.

Why don't you enlighten me on atheism and its moral compasses instead, it might help me understand what its all about?

glory glory

[makaveli1875]

There are those who would suggest that Saudi Arabia, a state based on religion, has little or no moral compass.

On the other hand, France, with its avowed secular approach.... would you say that it has no moral compass?

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Saudi Arabia , the only country that completely bans women from driving ... they have the safest roads in the world :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

I don't know would be the honest answer. I touched on some points highlighting my thoughts on Christianity and that I don't know anything about Atheism. I believe Christianity to be a force for good and will never change on that overarching viewpoint. I'll be attending the evening service tonight locally as I had more than a good few drinks last night as I'm off until Tuesday.

Why don't you enlighten me on atheism and its moral compasses instead, it might help me understand what its all about?

glory glory
I'm not atheist, so I can't.

What I suppose I'm getting at is that you seem to be conflating "religious" with "Christian ". Apologies if I have misunderstood.

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[CropleyWasGod]

Saudi Arabia , the only country that completely bans women from driving ... they have the safest roads in the world :greengrin
Do they have any problems with women ripping off petrol stations?

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[northstandhibby]

I'm not atheist, so I can't.

What I suppose I'm getting at is that you seem to be conflating "religious" with "Christian ". Apologies if I have misunderstood.

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I assumed you were so I unreservedly apologise to you also bud.

:aok:

glory glory

[CropleyWasGod]

I assumed you were so I unreservedly apologise to you also bud.

:aok:

glory glory
OK.

So, back to Saudi Arabia. Religious, absolutely. Moral compass?

The Daesh caliphate?



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[northstandhibby]

OK.

So, back to Saudi Arabia. Religious, absolutely. Moral compass?

The Daesh caliphate?



Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk


And I'll answer in the same manner. I don't know anything about them. I was making general points in relation to my own Christianity and of it being a force for good.

glory glory

[northstandhibby]

OK.

So, back to Saudi Arabia. Religious, absolutely. Moral compass?

The Daesh caliphate?



Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

Why don't you enlighten me of your thoughts of them?

glory glory

[CropleyWasGod]

And I'll answer in the same manner. I don't know anything about them. I was making general points in relation to my own Christianity and of it being a force for good.

glory glory
So you were conflating religion with Christianity. Thanks for clarifying.

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[CropleyWasGod]

Why don't you enlighten me of your thoughts of them?

glory glory
Neither regime has a set of morals that chime with mine.

Moderate Islam, however, like all of the Abrahamic religions (including yours) ....I can relate to on some level.

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[northstandhibby]

So you were conflating religion with Christianity. Thanks for clarifying.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

If you say so :dunno:]

Merely making general points on my Christianity.

Where's the enlightenment from you in regards to the subject matter you referred to?

glory glory

Edit - posted above.

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't know would be the honest answer. I touched on some points highlighting my thoughts on Christianity and that I don't know anything about Atheism. I believe Christianity to be a force for good and will never change on that overarching viewpoint. I'll be attending the evening service tonight locally as I had more than a good few drinks last night as I'm off until Tuesday.

Why don't you enlighten me on atheism and its moral compasses instead, it might help me understand what its all about?

glory glory

Asking someone to define the principles of atheism is the same as asking someone to enlighten you on religion. There's a very wide spectrum of atheists.

[northstandhibby]

Neither regime has a set of morals that chime with mine.

Moderate Islam, however, like all of the Abrahamic religions (including yours) ....I can relate to on some level.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

Thanks for sharing.

I know we're both similarly in tune with human rights as per posting history.

:agree:

glory glory

[northstandhibby]

Asking someone to define the principles of atheism is the same as asking someone to enlighten you on religion. There's a very wide spectrum of atheists.

Fair enough, I was just asking as i'm fairly unenlightened as to atheism.

glory glory

[CropleyWasGod]

Thanks for sharing.

I know we're both similarly in tune with human rights as per posting history.

:agree:

glory glory
No we're not. I have no desire to see SNP leaders dangling from lampposts.



[emoji14]

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[northstandhibby]

No we're not. I have no desire to see SNP leaders dangling from lampposts.



[emoji14]

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If you say so.

:rolleyes:

glory glory

[Moulin Yarns]

Incredibly disappointing to find over half who've voted are non-religious atheists. I don't think its co-incidence the GM voting poll on the other thread is showing a big nationalist majority.

Dearie me.

I'm confident if this thread had been on the main board there would be a majority of folk with a religious outlook. However we won't know.

glory glory


I love the logic in this post so much I have revisited it.

Christians Good - SNP BAAAAAD

OK, Northsandhibby, if your christians are so wonderful explain the following links to me. It list some atrocities perpetrated by your beloved 'christians'. Let's not forget that there has been similar atrocities by other religions, at the present time islamic extremists are randomly attacking 'non believers'

http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

http://markhumphrys.com/christianity.killings.html

All in the name of Christianity, or religion. Now, I wonder how many atrocities have been perpetrated in the name of atheism?

[Colr]

Asking someone to define the principles of atheism is the same as asking someone to enlighten you on religion. There's a very wide spectrum of atheists.

How can there be principles of atheism. Its a lack of beleive in a deity.

You would effectively be asking what are the principles of philosophy.

[Hibrandenburg]

How can there be principles of atheism. Its a lack of beleive in a deity.

You would effectively be asking what are the principles of philosophy.

Like everything else in humans, as soon as people hold any kind of convictions on any subject, they seek out and bind with like minded people. There's many different atheist groups and like religious groups they club together depending on their convictions and principles.

http://bornatheist.com/organizaitons.html

[northstandhibby]

I love the logic in this post so much I have revisited it.

Christians Good - SNP BAAAAAD

OK, Northsandhibby, if your christians are so wonderful explain the following links to me. It list some atrocities perpetrated by your beloved 'christians'. Let's not forget that there has been similar atrocities by other religions, at the present time islamic extremists are randomly attacking 'non believers'

http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

http://markhumphrys.com/christianity.killings.html

All in the name of Christianity, or religion. Now, I wonder how many atrocities have been perpetrated in the name of atheism?

For me Christianities fundamental underpinning principles such as - being kind to your neighbours, truth, forgiveness, charity, holding authorities to account, enlightenment, hope, compassion, etc etc etc are overwhelming and are a big part of my love for my faith.

glory glory

[Just Alf]

If you say so.

:rolleyes:

glory glory

Missed the smilie then? :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

For me Christianities fundamental underpinning principles such as - being kind to your neighbours, truth, forgiveness, charity, holding authorities to account, enlightenment, hope, compassion, etc etc etc are overwhelming and are a big part of my love for my faith.

glory glory

All of the above are not the exclusive right of Christians, indeed, if you look at my links you will see that some Christian have no values whatsoever. Where is your counter that non believing atheists have carried out similar such atrocities?


But it doesn't matter that millions have been killed in the name of Christianity because you think you are right and everyone else is wrong.


I've seen less effective blinkers on a racehorse.

[Pretty Boy]

For me Christianities fundamental underpinning principles such as - being kind to your neighbours, truth, forgiveness, charity, holding authorities to account, enlightenment, hope, compassion, etc etc etc are overwhelming and are a big part of my love for my faith.

glory glory

As I've said above I'm somewhat undecided on where I stand with regards to religion and even the existence of a God. I just don'to believe I have the intelligence to fully comprehend questions that have puzzled people for thousands of years.

With regards to your post are those qualities and values listed exclusive to Christianity or indeed any person of faith? How does say compassion and forgiveness sit alongside harrassing women outside an abortion clinic at a traumatic time? How does love and kindness sit with the prejudices and judgement many Christians show towards homosexuals or the divorced?

Some of the most judgemental, uncaring and spiteful people I have known have professed to be Christians, likewise many atheists I have known have displayed the values listed above in abundance. That's not a statement or a verdict on all Christians or atheists but rather expresses my view that a faith or otherwise doesn't define the good in a person.

[northstandhibby]

As I've said above I'm somewhat undecided on where I stand with regards to religion and even the existence of a God. I just don'to believe I have the intelligence to fully comprehend questions that have puzzled people for thousands of years.

With regards to your post are those qualities and values listed exclusive to Christianity or indeed any person of faith? How does say compassion and forgiveness sit alongside harrassing women outside an abortion clinic at a traumatic time? How does love and kindness sit with the prejudices and judgement many Christians show towards homosexuals or the divorced?

Some of the most judgemental, uncaring and spiteful people I have known have professed to be Christians, likewise many atheists I have known have displayed the values listed above in abundance. That's not a statement or a verdict on all Christians or atheists but rather expresses my view that a faith or otherwise doesn't define the good in a person.

I've no idea if some of the underpinning Christian values I referred to are exclusive to Christianity. I don't know anything much regarding atheism or other faiths.

Folk will always be able to pick faults with one faith or another or of no faith at all, however the principles I referred to are underlying core Christian values and principles and as a Christian myself I am very happy to try to live my life with them as a guiding light of how to.

glory glory

[Moulin Yarns]

I've no idea if some of the underpinning Christian values I referred to are exclusive to Christianity. I don't know anything much
Folk will always be able to pick faults with one faith or another or of no faith at all, however the principles I referred to are underlying core Christian values and principles and as a Christian myself I am very happy to try to live my life with them as a guiding light of how to.

glory glory

You could just have stopped there :wink:


Christian values eh!?

http://www.history.com/topics/crusades

http://www.christianpost.com/news/kkk-leader-were-a-christian-organization-claims-the-klan-is-not-a-hate-group-116614/

[CropleyWasGod]

You could just have stopped there :wink:


Christian values eh!?

http://www.history.com/topics/crusades

http://www.christianpost.com/news/kkk-leader-were-a-christian-organization-claims-the-klan-is-not-a-hate-group-116614/

Oh come on, GF.

He didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.......

:greengrin

[snooky]

Oh come on, GF.

He didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.......

:greengrin

Nobody does - well, except their pre-natal mothers. :wink:

[Navids Numpties]

Oh dear. What have I started. I myself identify as Catholic. I find the use of wars caused by Christians hundreds and sometimes thousands of years ago unforgiving and unacceptable but to use that as a argument against Christianity and religion as a whole not viable. You only have to look at Athiest's like Hitler, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, etc. Who got hundreds of millions killed. I would argue that things would have been a lot worse had religion never existed. Albeit all the wars. Including Muslim sectarian wars some of which are still on going.

[Moulin Yarns]

Oh dear. What have I started. I myself identify as Catholic. I find the use of wars caused by Christians hundreds and sometimes thousands of years ago unforgiving and unacceptable but to use that as a argument against Christianity and religion as a whole not viable. You only have to look at Athiest's like Hitler, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, etc. Who got hundreds of millions killed. I would argue that things would have been a lot worse had religion never existed. Albeit all the wars. Including Muslim sectarian wars some of which are still on going.


When a poster compared the 2 polls, your one on religious beliefs and how people intended to vote in the General Election this thread took a wrong turning.

He suggested if you were not a Christian then you were an SNP voter. He has repeatedly been asked to explain his thoughts but all he can say is he believes in Christian values. As it happens I am neither, but that is beside the point. I was directing my replies to him as a way of pointing out that his supposed Christian values are not followed by al Christians.

Sorry for taking it off topic and hope you are not offended.

PS Hitler was raised a catholic. :wink:

[Navids Numpties]

When a poster compared the 2 polls, your one on religious beliefs and how people intended to vote in the General Election this thread took a wrong turning.

He suggested if you were not a Christian then you were an SNP voter. He has repeatedly been asked to explain his thoughts but all he can say is he believes in Christian values. As it happens I am neither, but that is beside the point. I was directing my replies to him as a way of pointing out that his supposed Christian values are not followed by al Christians.

Sorry for taking it off topic and hope you are not offended.

PS Hitler was raised a catholic. :wink:

Well as it turns out I am Catholic and SNP :greengrin

Yes he was although he disbanded and became atheist. Your point being?

[barcahibs]

I always find it slightly odd when religious folk start "whataboutery" when comparing moral history... Aye Stalin, pol pot and Hitler were monsters - but they werent supposed to be being guided by the hand of an all powerful, infallible, ever loving god.

Judging by the crusades, the sectarian wars, the persecutions, the empire building, and the just about endless list of genocides across the old and new worlds, God historically hasnt been very good at choosing or guiding his representatives on Earth - a bit Petrie-esque in fact, every now and again he lucks out on a Mowbray or Lennon but theres a lot of Butchers and Calderwoods in there. :)

As forthe argument that religious institutions provide moral guidance or temper the excesses of secular power... I'm struggling to think when this has ever happened?

Judging by their palaces and cathedrals, religious authorities seem to have spent most of their time getting rich and acquiring power. Could the wealth represented by the physical structures of places like the Vatican or St Paul's (not picking on any religion these are just those I'm most used to) have been better used alleviating the suffering of the faithful poor?

Hitler might have been an athiest (i think there's still some debate there though) but every soldier in his army had the slogan "Gott mit us" (God is with us) written on their uniform.

The church in Italy seemed more interested in what women were allowed to wear, who got the revenues from church lands and who got to control children than preventing or moderating Mussolini's fascism.

Further back and you've got the European colonial excesses which were often undertaken - at least initially - on the churches behalf. Even slavery was endorsed from the pulpit when it suited the elite. At its height how many churches in the British empire were preaching against the White man's burden?

You can go even further back - how many died to build pyramids in Egypt? Or to have their heart ripped out atop one in central America? How many were sacrificed in the cold northern European midwinter to ensure the Gods made the sun and the crops come again?

Each to their own of course :) but i find it hard as an athiest to be judged morally inferior to those of faith.

[Hibrandenburg]

I always find it slightly odd when religious folk start "whataboutery" when comparing moral history... Aye Stalin, pol pot and Hitler were monsters - but they werent supposed to be being guided by the hand of an all powerful, infallible, ever loving god.

Judging by the crusades, the sectarian wars, the persecutions, the empire building, and the just about endless list of genocides across the old and new worlds, God historically hasnt been very good at choosing or guiding his representatives on Earth - a bit Petrie-esque in fact, every now and again he lucks out on a Mowbray or Lennon but theres a lot of Butchers and Calderwoods in there. :)

As forthe argument that religious institutions provide moral guidance or temper the excesses of secular power... I'm struggling to think when this has ever happened?

Judging by their palaces and cathedrals, religious authorities seem to have spent most of their time getting rich and acquiring power. Could the wealth represented by the physical structures of places like the Vatican or St Paul's (not picking on any religion these are just those I'm most used to) have been better used alleviating the suffering of the faithful poor?

Hitler might have been an athiest (i think there's still some debate there though) but every soldier in his army had the slogan "Gott mit us" (God is with us) written on their uniform.

The church in Italy seemed more interested in what women were allowed to wear, who got the revenues from church lands and who got to control children than preventing or moderating Mussolini's fascism.

Further back and you've got the European colonial excesses which were often undertaken - at least initially - on the churches behalf. Even slavery was endorsed from the pulpit when it suited the elite. At its height how many churches in the British empire were preaching against the White man's burden?

You can go even further back - how many died to build pyramids in Egypt? Or to have their heart ripped out atop one in central America? How many were sacrificed in the cold northern European midwinter to ensure the Gods made the sun and the crops come again?

Each to their own of course :) but i find it hard as an athiest to be judged morally inferior to those of faith.

Close the thread now please.

[Navids Numpties]

I always find it slightly odd when religious folk start "whataboutery" when comparing moral history... Aye Stalin, pol pot and Hitler were monsters - but they werent supposed to be being guided by the hand of an all powerful, infallible, ever loving god.

Judging by the crusades, the sectarian wars, the persecutions, the empire building, and the just about endless list of genocides across the old and new worlds, God historically hasnt been very good at choosing or guiding his representatives on Earth - a bit Petrie-esque in fact, every now and again he lucks out on a Mowbray or Lennon but theres a lot of Butchers and Calderwoods in there. :)

As forthe argument that religious institutions provide moral guidance or temper the excesses of secular power... I'm struggling to think when this has ever happened?

Judging by their palaces and cathedrals, religious authorities seem to have spent most of their time getting rich and acquiring power. Could the wealth represented by the physical structures of places like the Vatican or St Paul's (not picking on any religion these are just those I'm most used to) have been better used alleviating the suffering of the faithful poor?

Hitler might have been an athiest (i think there's still some debate there though) but every soldier in his army had the slogan "Gott mit us" (God is with us) written on their uniform.

The church in Italy seemed more interested in what women were allowed to wear, who got the revenues from church lands and who got to control children than preventing or moderating Mussolini's fascism.

Further back and you've got the European colonial excesses which were often undertaken - at least initially - on the churches behalf. Even slavery was endorsed from the pulpit when it suited the elite. At its height how many churches in the British empire were preaching against the White man's burden?

You can go even further back - how many died to build pyramids in Egypt? Or to have their heart ripped out atop one in central America? How many were sacrificed in the cold northern European midwinter to ensure the Gods made the sun and the crops come again?

Each to their own of course :) but i find it hard as an athiest to be judged morally inferior to those of faith.



Athiest's seem to believe that ever Religious person has a chip on their shoulder against them therefore putting them further against Religious people. 99% (there's always gonna be that 1% eh) of all Religious people I know could not give 2****s what athiests think. Each to their own. What annoys me is the ideology ofathiests that think Religious people are out to get them because they don'tagree with what we do. Which is certainly not the case.


I think that a lot of athiestsget their information from radical Christian churches like the Westboro BaptistChurch in the USA which is some of the 1%. Who preach death and damnation to all who do not do what they say. Some of these places take everything they’ve got from the bible and live their lifes by it and preach straight from it. Which is simply ludocris IMO.

My father explained to me quite some time ago why I should never do that after his girlfriend went loopy and joined a religious sect which lives their life’s by the bible and does everything it says. They all live in a massive house studying every nook and cranny of the bible and doing everything to live their life’s by it. To even join she had to marry someone from within the massive house they live in. Sounds like some sort of pre-historic times. Crazy stuff. Anyway when my Dad said that it was a load of bull**** I understood it and it made sense but for the life of me I can’t remember what he said.


Anyway as you said each to their own and all that eh!

Glory Glory

[Navids Numpties]

I do like the way that some of my atheist friends think. Don't believe in god but live their life by one rule. Just don't be a prick.

[CropleyWasGod]

I do like the way that some of my atheist friends think. Don't believe in god but live their life by one rule. Just don't be a prick.

Indeed....

https://laymansbible.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/thus-spoke-the-lord-dont-be-a-dick.jpg

[easty]

Athiest's seem to believe that ever Religious person has a chip on their shoulder against them therefore putting them further against Religious people. 99% (there's always gonna be that 1% eh) of all Religious people I know could not give 2****s what athiests think. Each to their own. What annoys me is the ideology ofathiests that think Religious people are out to get them because they don'tagree with what we do. Which is certainly not the case.


I think that a lot of athiestsget their information from radical Christian churches like the Westboro BaptistChurch in the USA which is some of the 1%. Who preach death and damnation to all who do not do what they say. Some of these places take everything they’ve got from the bible and live their lifes by it and preach straight from it. Which is simply ludocris IMO.

My father explained to me quite some time ago why I should never do that after his girlfriend went loopy and joined a religious sect which lives their life’s by the bible and does everything it says. They all live in a massive house studying every nook and cranny of the bible and doing everything to live their life’s by it. To even join she had to marry someone from within the massive house they live in. Sounds like some sort of pre-historic times. Crazy stuff. Anyway when my Dad said that it was a load of bull**** I understood it and it made sense but for the life of me I can’t remember what he said.


Anyway as you said each to their own and all that eh!

Glory Glory


I'm an atheist and I don't think religious people have a chip on their shoulder. I have something in common with 99% of the religious people you know, in that I don't give a ****.

Atheism isn't an ideology.

Getting to the point you make about living your life exactly to the bible, like the Westboro Baptist Church...well...you should, shouldn't you? If you believe some of it is true, then why not all of it? If you believe that God, or Jesus, or whoever, exists/existed, and through their existence the bible came to be, then who are you to decide which parts you choose to live your life by? Either it's Gods will, or it's not. No?

[Navids Numpties]

I'm an atheist and I don't think religious people have a chip on their shoulder. I have something in common with 99% of the religious people you know, in that I don't give a ****.

Atheism isn't an ideology.

Getting to the point you make about living your life exactly to the bible, like the Westboro Baptist Church...well...you should, shouldn't you? If you believe some of it is true, then why not all of it? If you believe that God, or Jesus, or whoever, exists/existed, and through their existence the bible came to be, then who are you to decide which parts you choose to live your life by? Either it's Gods will, or it's not. No?

I never said atheism is an ideology. I said the idea that we are all out to tell you what is wrong because you don't believe what we do is your ideology of many of us. Which is much the contrary.

Now I haven't read the full bible, only some verses and what I have read of it if we all lived our life's by it we would all be locked up in houses. Doing exactly what my dads ex is. I believe in the existence of God because I believe that we are not here to live and die that's it. There is something else IMO. I have read a lot into Athiesm and its not for me. You say you do have something in common with the 99% yet you seem to have something against me although I clearly stated that Westboro Baptist Church's beliefs are lucocris yet you still spout your garbage about my beliefs to which you state who am I to chose how to live my life in my opinion of Christianity. Who am I to decide which parts I live my life by you say? I am the same person as you to chose not believe in it. It's a free world. I chose what I believe in as do you. So please respect my choice as I respect yours.

[Mr White]

I never said atheism is an ideology. I said the idea that we are all out to tell you what is wrong because you don't believe what we do is your ideology of many of us. Which is much the contrary.

Now I haven't read the full bible, only some verses and what I have read of it if we all lived our life's by it we would all be locked up in houses. Doing exactly what my dads ex is. I believe in the existence of God because I believe that we are not here to live and die that's it. There is something else IMO. I have read a lot into Athiesm and its not for me. You say you do have something in common with the 99% yet you seem to have something against me although I clearly stated that Westboro Baptist Church's beliefs are lucocris yet you still spout your garbage to my beliefs to which you state who am I to chose how to live my life in my opinion of Christianity. Who am I to decide which parts I live my life by you say? I am the same person as you to not believe in it. It's a free world. I chose what I believe in as do you. So please respect my choice as I respect yours.

You sure about that?

[Navids Numpties]

You sure about that?

Yes I am. I don't give a flying **** what he believes in or choses not to it's a free world. By garbage I was talking about what he was saying in the latter paragraph.

[Mr White]

Yes I am. I don't give a flying **** what he believes in or choses not to it's a free world. By garbage I was talking about what he was saying in the latter paragraph.

He's asking a fairly reasonable question imo. Calling it garbage isn't very respectful is it?

[Navids Numpties]

He's asking a fairly reasonable question imo. Calling it garbage isn't very respectful is it?

Oh gee it a rest. I respect atheist's end of and inturn any decent person would give respect back. He would not have said that had I not brought it up. Each to their own though. My son is in actual fact an atheist athough his mother and I are catholic. That's what he believes in, then fine. So be it.

[Mr White]

Oh gee it a rest. I respect atheist's end of and inturn any decent person would give respect back. He would not have said that had I not brought it up. Each to their own though. My son is in actual fact an atheist athough his mother and I are catholic. That's what he believes in, then fine. So be it.
Ok we'll just agree to disagree on what constitutes respect then.

[Navids Numpties]

Ok we'll just agree to disagree on what constitutes respect then.

:aok:

[Mr White]

:aok:

Oh ee oh Darren McGregor
Oh ee oh he's a mass attender



I'll get my coat :greengrin

[Navids Numpties]

Oh ee oh Darren McGregor
Oh ee oh he's a mass attender



I'll get my coat :greengrin

You missed out the he never gives the ball away:wink:

I liked that one though:greengrin

[Mr White]

You missed out the he never gives the ball away:wink:

I liked that one though:greengrin

I thought I'd keep it short :greengrin

[Navids Numpties]

I thought I'd keep it short :greengrin

Atleast one thing unites us all and that being football.

And it truly is the best sport in the world.

Keep it classy guys.

[easty]

I never said atheism is an ideology. I said the idea that we are all out to tell you what is wrong because you don't believe what we do is your ideology of many of us. Which is much the contrary.

Now I haven't read the full bible, only some verses and what I have read of it if we all lived our life's by it we would all be locked up in houses. Doing exactly what my dads ex is. I believe in the existence of God because I believe that we are not here to live and die that's it. There is something else IMO. I have read a lot into Athiesm and its not for me. You say you do have something in common with the 99% yet you seem to have something against me although I clearly stated that Westboro Baptist Church's beliefs are lucocris yet you still spout your garbage about my beliefs to which you state who am I to chose how to live my life in my opinion of Christianity. Who am I to decide which parts I live my life by you say? I am the same person as you to chose not believe in it. It's a free world. I chose what I believe in as do you. So please respect my choice as I respect yours.

Touchy a bit?

I've got nothing against you, I don't know you. You say what you think, I'll say what I think, as long as we're not just throwing insults at each other, then that's fair enough isn't it? It's what a message board is for.

Whether what you think what I have to say is garbage or not, my point stands, if you believe in the whole God thing, then believe in the whole God thing, not just the bits and pieces you like. Now before you get all touchy again, I'm not having a dig at you! I just find it odd (mostly because I'm atheist obviously) that there are Christians who are happy to believe this part of the bible is worth adhering to, but those bits aren't.

[Navids Numpties]

Touchy a bit?

I've got nothing against you, I don't know you. You say what you think, I'll say what I think, as long as we're not just throwing insults at each other, then that's fair enough isn't it? It's what a message board is for.

Whether what you think what I have to say is garbage or not, my point stands, if you believe in the whole God thing, then believe in the whole God thing, not just the bits and pieces you like. Now before you get all touchy again, I'm not having a dig at you! I just find it odd (mostly because I'm atheist obviously) that there are Christians who are happy to believe this part of the bible is worth adhering to, but those bits aren't.

I take it you have never read the bible? It's more stories than telling people what to do and how to live their life although some of it is. As I said I have not read the full shabang. Probably should have said that before I went off on one. But from where I was standing it seemed like you were having a dig. Apologies.

[Just Alf]

I'm busy read "the thunder of war" on my kindle, you've got me considering queueing up the Bible for a "wee" read next.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm busy read "the thunder of war" on my kindle, you've got me considering queueing up the Bible for a "wee" read next.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Don't want to spoil it for you, but I have to say that the ending is apocalytpic. Kinda Stuart Regan-esque....:greengrin

[Navids Numpties]

Don't want to spoil it for you, but I have to say that the ending is apocalytpic. Kinda Stuart Regan-esque....:greengrin

I take it Cropley is your god:greengrin

[barcahibs]

Athiest's seem to believe that ever Religious person has a chip on their shoulder against them therefore putting them further against Religious people. 99% (there's always gonna be that 1% eh) of all Religious people I know could not give 2****s what athiests think. Each to their own. What annoys me is the ideology ofathiests that think Religious people are out to get them because they don'tagree with what we do. Which is certainly not the case.


I think that a lot of athiestsget their information from radical Christian churches like the Westboro BaptistChurch in the USA which is some of the 1%. Who preach death and damnation to all who do not do what they say. Some of these places take everything they’ve got from the bible and live their lifes by it and preach straight from it. Which is simply ludocris IMO.

My father explained to me quite some time ago why I should never do that after his girlfriend went loopy and joined a religious sect which lives their life’s by the bible and does everything it says. They all live in a massive house studying every nook and cranny of the bible and doing everything to live their life’s by it. To even join she had to marry someone from within the massive house they live in. Sounds like some sort of pre-historic times. Crazy stuff. Anyway when my Dad said that it was a load of bull**** I understood it and it made sense but for the life of me I can’t remember what he said.


Anyway as you said each to their own and all that eh!

Glory Glory


I don't think that at all really - to be honest in day to day life I don't give any thought to religion. The only religious person I know is my mum - and even she has given up on the church (she's of a mainstream faith but when her son (my brother) married outside that faith it caused a bit of a stooshie from some of the more closed minded members of the kirk).

I agree with you on cults, very, very dangerous organisations - I think we might disagree on exactly what constitutes one though.

I'm not talking about weird sects or cults though, I'm talking mainstream religion. If the Churches sold all of the buildings they own across the world - prime development land in places like central London and New York - how much would it raise for the poor and needy? If the Vatican and Church of England melted down all its gold and sold all of its silks how many could it save from disease and starvation? In the Middle Ages how many Prince's of the Church died of cold or hunger?

How many could the churches have saved if they hadn't preached that Black people were the son of Ham and deserved their fate as slaves (and not denying the role that people of faith eventually had in ending slavery - the key word there though is eventually)? How many witches and heretics died screaming at the stake - on fires set by the established church not by weird cults.

Even here in Edinburgh - and not as long ago as we'd like to think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aikenhead

We've already mentioned Hitler and Mussolini - What were the priests of Germany saying when the Kaiser's armies were marching across Europe? What did the preachers of the West say as the US Cavalry burned Native American villages? When the Spanish and Portuguese 'converted' the Americas by steel and fire? When the European and American missionaries 'civilised' Africa, Asia and Australasia? Where was 'turn the other cheek' when the Crusades raged across the Holy Lands? Not to mention Islam, Judaism, Hinduism etc etc, each of which has at times spread itself by the sword for the benefit of those at the top.

Where was Christian Germany's tolerance and love when they were lighting the ovens? Some individuals of faith bravely made a stand. The churches and congregations as a whole did not.

Note that I'm not saying athiests are any better.

I'm saying people are people and the presence or absence of religious faith doesn't seem to have much effect on the behaviour of society as a whole. There have been great men and women who have been inspired to great deeds by their faith. And there have been great men and women who have done the same without any faith at all. Likewise there have been monsters - and a great many more who committed petty little acts of evil and intolerance - with and without the excuse of religion.

As an athiest I point to the lack of difference and say that it shows there is no God (or at least not one who cares in any way about people) - a person of religion can turn around and say it is all part of His/Her/Their/Its plan and who are we to try and interpret it.

What we need to do is reset the whole thing and run the last 10,000 years again but this time without religion, then we can compare and contrast the differences. That's a hell of a grant proposal though. :greengrin

I also object slightly to the idea (again mentioned above) that religion leads to people questioning authority and holding it to account... I kind of think religion does the exact opposite. Isn't the whole point of religion that you can't question the guy/gal/things/entity at the top? And by extension those that He/She/They/It have appointed as their Human representatives?

Whatever.

The only thing that really bothers me (and when i say 'bothers' I mean I only think about it once in a Blue Moon when I read threads like this) is the idea that some religious people have - espoused earlier in this thread - that their faith makes them relatively superior to those who lack it - or that their faith means they should have extra rights and privileges over the rest of society. We've made a good start on removing hereditary peers from the House of Lords, I hope the next target is the Bishops.

People are people. Mostly we're a decent bunch. Mostly. Some of us however are hearts fans. :greengrin

But I suspect this thread isn't going to change anyone's views! So in the words of The Prophet (I can never remember if it was Bill or Ted) let's all just be Excellent to one another. :greengrin

[Navids Numpties]

I don't think that at all really - to be honest in day to day life I don't give any thought to religion. The only religious person I know is my mum - and even she has given up on the church (she's of a mainstream faith but when her son (my brother) married outside that faith it caused a bit of a stooshie from some of the more closed minded members of the kirk).

I agree with you on cults, very, very dangerous organisations - I think we might disagree on exactly what constitutes one though.

I'm not talking about weird sects or cults though, I'm talking mainstream religion. If the Churches sold all of the buildings they own across the world - prime development land in places like central London and New York - how much would it raise for the poor and needy? If the Vatican and Church of England melted down all its gold and sold all of its silks how many could it save from disease and starvation? In the Middle Ages how many Prince's of the Church died of cold or hunger?

How many could the churches have saved if they hadn't preached that Black people were the son of Ham and deserved their fate as slaves (and not denying the role that people of faith eventually had in ending slavery - the key word there though is eventually)? How many witches and heretics died screaming at the stake - on fires set by the established church not by weird cults.

Even here in Edinburgh - and not as long ago as we'd like to think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aikenhead

We've already mentioned Hitler and Mussolini - What were the priests of Germany saying when the Kaiser's armies were marching across Europe? What did the preachers of the West say as the US Cavalry burned Native American villages? When the Spanish and Portuguese 'converted' the Americas by steel and fire? When the European and American missionaries 'civilised' Africa, Asia and Australasia? Where was 'turn the other cheek' when the Crusades raged across the Holy Lands? Not to mention Islam, Judaism, Hinduism etc etc, each of which has at times spread itself by the sword for the benefit of those at the top.

Where was Christian Germany's tolerance and love when they were lighting the ovens? Some individuals of faith bravely made a stand. The churches and congregations as a whole did not.

Note that I'm not saying athiests are any better.

I'm saying people are people and the presence or absence of religious faith doesn't seem to have much effect on the behaviour of society as a whole. There have been great men and women who have been inspired to great deeds by their faith. And there have been great men and women who have done the same without any faith at all. Likewise there have been monsters - and a great many more who committed petty little acts of evil and intolerance - with and without the excuse of religion.

As an athiest I point to the lack of difference and say that it shows there is no God (or at least not one who cares in any way about people) - a person of religion can turn around and say it is all part of His/Her/Their/Its plan and who are we to try and interpret it.

What we need to do is reset the whole thing and run the last 10,000 years again but this time without religion, then we can compare and contrast the differences. That's a hell of a grant proposal though. :greengrin

I also object slightly to the idea (again mentioned above) that religion leads to people questioning authority and holding it to account... I kind of think religion does the exact opposite. Isn't the whole point of religion that you can't question the guy/gal/things/entity at the top? And by extension those that He/She/They/It have appointed as their Human representatives?

Whatever.

The only thing that really bothers me (and when i say 'bothers' I mean I only think about it once in a Blue Moon when I read threads like this) is the idea that some religious people have - espoused earlier in this thread - that their faith makes them relatively superior to those who lack it - or that their faith means they should have extra rights and privileges over the rest of society. We've made a good start on removing hereditary peers from the House of Lords, I hope the next target is the Bishops.

People are people. Mostly we're a decent bunch. Mostly. Some of us however are hearts fans. :greengrin

But I suspect this thread isn't going to change anyone's views! So in the words of The Prophet (I can never remember if it was Bill or Ted) let's all just be Excellent to one another. :greengrin

Nevr created it to change any opinions it kind of took off in free fall, all very good points you made there :agree:

[CropleyWasGod]

I take it Cropley is your god:greengrin

Not any more. Divine as he was, Crops was never a DJ. :greengrin

[Colr]

Investigation for blasphemy!!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/06/stephen-fry-police-investigation-blasphemy-branding-god-utter/

Let that one run!

[Mr White]

Stephen Fry under police (well Gardai but it's the closest thing they've got down there) investigation for a possible act of blasphemy in Ireland in 2015.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39830447

Interesting that the legislation in question only came into force in 2009. If it had been around in Father Ted's day then presumably the entire cast and production team would have faced charges :greengrin

[lord bunberry]

Stephen Fry under police (well Gardai but it's the closest thing they've got down there) investigation for a possible act of blasphemy in Ireland in 2015.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39830447

Interesting that the legislation in question only came into force in 2009. If it had been around in Father Ted's day then presumably the entire cast and production team would have faced charges :greengrin
Here's the interview in question. I've kept out of this debate up until now as my views would offend anyone of a religious persuasion. I'll let Steven Fry do it :greengrin
https://youtu.be/2-d4otHE-YI
https://youtu.be/2-d4otHE-YI

[Moulin Yarns]

When you're not doing so well, vote for a better life for yourself. If you are doing quite nicely, vote for a better life for others.

https://mobile.twitter.com/IrvineWelsh/status/596263263928713216

[Ozymandias]

I've no idea if some of the underpinning Christian values I referred to are exclusive to Christianity. I don't know anything much regarding atheism or other faiths.

Folk will always be able to pick faults with one faith or another or of no faith at all, however the principles I referred to are underlying core Christian values and principles and as a Christian myself I am very happy to try to live my life with them as a guiding light of how to.

glory glory

One of the things I find quite difficult to get my head around as an atheist looking at and interested in faith is the ability for people to need to take on the supernatural side of religious teachings in order to follow principles of what might be described as general decency.

"Christian" principles, in your case, can easily be found in the bible to match good ways to behave. (There is a necessity, I think, to turn something of a blind eye to some of the less palatable directions found in both Old and New testament, but that's an other discussion). What I don't get is the need to have belief in the divinity of Jesus, the resurrection, the virgin birth etc? It seems unnecessary to me that in order to follow a moral compass that spans cultures one has to choose a particular set of religious tenets to believe in, and that the ability to choose the "right" one is pretty limited as a result of the location, time and circumstance of ones birth.