The Law Is An Ass - Vol 1

[snooky]

I thought it was time "The Law Is An Ass" deserved a thread of it's own.
Here's a starter......
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands/1224752/family-braced-for-deportation/
"A heartbroken family will be removed from their Highland home, put in taxis bound for an airport and deported in a fortnight’s time. Canadian family the Zielsdorfs, who invested £300,000 in Laggan Stores and a cafe and holiday-let business, fought a long legal battle in an effort to remain in Scotland ..."

My advice is to just land illegally on a beach and you won't get deported.

[Scouse Hibee]

I thought it was time "The Law Is An Ass" deserved a thread of it's own.
Here's a starter......
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands/1224752/family-braced-for-deportation/
"A heartbroken family will be removed from their Highland home, put in taxis bound for an airport and deported in a fortnight’s time. Canadian family the Zielsdorfs, who invested £300,000 in Laggan Stores and a cafe and holiday-let business, fought a long legal battle in an effort to remain in Scotland ..."

My advice is to just land illegally on a beach and you won't get deported.

They can support themselves, need no benefit handouts and would not be a burden on the country. They were on a loser from the start then,never had a chance!

[GlesgaeHibby]

Absolutely disgusting. Seeing more and more cases like this with the Tories heading further to the right and increasing the immigration rhetoric.

One of my colleagues was unable to extend his visa and now has to work for us from Australia. I can't get my head round the government refusing to extend visa's for people that have came to set up a new life here, are working and contributing in taxes and to society. Even more so when they have brought their kids here and they are settled.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Does seem mental to send home people working and contributing to our society.

[northstandhibby]

It does appear to be very harsh and while rules are there to be adhered to a case by case basis could be used in circumstances in cases such as this one and allowed them to remain.

glory glory

[speedy_gonzales]

It does seem like the family was an asset to the country, is it possible them staying beyond their initial visas went against them?

[grunt]

This is dreadful, and seems to be a sign of things to come if the protectionist anti-immigrant Tories gain even more power.
But. The BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-39657447) version of the story says the family have failed to provide some requested evidence:


The Home Office said Mr Zielsdorf's application for an extension of leave to remain under the Tier 1 Entrepreneur route was refused as it did not meet the immigration rules on several counts.
These included providing evidence of self-employment, evidence of National Insurance contributions and the requirement to employ two people full-time for 12 months.


If this is true, then I think it seems a bit strange. I can understand why the third requirement might not be met in an out of the way place like the Highlands, and if that was the only issue I'd have hoped that could have been appealed. But why could they not provide the first two items of evidence?

[CropleyWasGod]

This is dreadful, and seems to be a sign of things to come if the protectionist anti-immigrant Tories gain even more power.
But. The BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-39657447) version of the story says the family have failed to provide some requested evidence:



If this is true, then I think it seems a bit strange. I can understand why the third requirement might not be met in an out of the way place like the Highlands, and if that was the only issue I'd have hoped that could have been appealed. But why could they not provide the first two items of evidence?
Sounds to me that he hasn't sorted himself out with HMRC. Registering as self-employed and paying NIC go hand-in-hand.

If that's the case, he's broken the law.

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[snooky]

Sounds to me that he hasn't sorted himself out with HMRC. Registering as self-employed and paying NIC go hand-in-hand.

If that's the case, he's broken the law.

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Hang him high!
Imagine anybody dodging taxes or fiddling expenses being allowed to stay in this country.
He should stand for election - he appears to have most of the qualifications.

[snooky]

Hoards of police pulling over cars today and spending 15 minutes lecturing the drivers on how to overtake cyclists.
Basically, if you see someone on a bike, to escape a jail sentence, you have to turn around and take another route.

[speedy_gonzales]

Hoards of police pulling over cars today and spending 15 minutes lecturing the drivers on how to overtake cyclists.
Basically, if you see someone on a bike, to escape a jail sentence, you have to turn around and take another route.

OR, adopt common sense, respect fellow road users and pass at a safe distance when clear to do so. Clearly some folk are irked at having to be reminded how to drive safely.
If everyone drove as if they were on a driving test the roads would surely be safer, so why don't we?

[snooky]

OR, adopt common sense, respect fellow road users and pass at a safe distance when clear to do so. Clearly some folk are irked at having to be reminded how to drive safely.
If everyone drove as if they were on a driving test the roads would surely be safer, so why don't we?

I assume you are meaning ALL road users, SG.
Oddly enough, cyclists don't need to pass a test.
We can only assume they know the of rules of the road and how to use them safely.

[Scouse Hibee]

I assume you are meaning ALL road users, SG.
Oddly enough, cyclists don't need to pass a test.
We can only assume they know the of rules of the road and how to use them safely.

They certainly don't seem to realise that traffic lights apply to them, imagine the chaos if car drivers applied the same logic as cyclists, ignore the lights just go when there is a clear path.

[speedy_gonzales]

I assume you are meaning ALL road users, SG.
Oddly enough, cyclists don't need to pass a test.
We can only assume they know the of rules of the road and how to use them safely.
Many road users do not need to pass a test, but for those that do and don't want to lose that privilege, then how difficult is it to follow rules.
Not only that, but treat other road users with a little respect?

[speedy_gonzales]

They certainly don't seem to realise that traffic lights apply to them, imagine the chaos if car drivers applied the same logic as cyclists, ignore the lights just go when there is a clear path.
THEM, as in cyclists? That's part of the problem. Many cyclists are motorists that choose to leave the car at home.
The other part of the problem is not all cyclists ignore traffic lights and other rules of the road, not even the majority of cyclists do that, but the perception is they do.
Two wrongs don't make a right but what's worse, a cyclist going through a red or a Citylink coach going through a red from Frederick on to Queen St?
I drive, haven't been on a bike this year but see more motorists break the law (speeding, pavement driving, blazing red lights, mobile phone use) than cyclists.
All the Police are doing is ensuring 1 road user respects another by following the law. Now whilst some cyclists are complete idiots, that does not mean we can treat all cyclists as idiots and punish pass them!

[snooky]

Many road users do not need to pass a test, but for those that do and don't want to lose that privilege, then how difficult is it to follow rules.
Not only that, but treat other road users with a little respect?

The least respect that I (and other road users) get is from the Weekend Bike Club swarmers.

[RyeSloan]

THEM, as in cyclists? That's part of the problem. Many cyclists are motorists that choose to leave the car at home.
The other part of the problem is not all cyclists ignore traffic lights and other rules of the road, not even the majority of cyclists do that, but the perception is they do.
Two wrongs don't make a right but what's worse, a cyclist going through a red or a Citylink coach going through a red from Frederick on to Queen St?
I drive, haven't been on a bike this year but see more motorists break the law (speeding, pavement driving, blazing red lights, mobile phone use) than cyclists.
All the Police are doing is ensuring 1 road user respects another by following the law. Now whilst some cyclists are complete idiots, that does not mean we can treat all cyclists as idiots and punish pass them!

There is always a few bad eggs no matter what bracket you put people in so I'm not defending one group over the other.

But I would challenge your statement about seeing more motorists breaking the law compared to cyclists. Spend 5 minutes at any set of traffic lights in and around Princess St (a not uncommon occurrence if a tram is any where near [emoji57]) and I will put a large wager on the fact you will see many more occurrences of cyclists jumping the lights, going onto the pavement etc than you will vehicle drivers.

I was sat yesterday morning waiting (as ever) to turn left from Waverley bridge onto Princess Street...4 cyclists arrived while I was sat there and every single one either went through the red light or decided that the pavement was their next port of call. I then was then sat outside Jenners in St Andrew Square for a minute and two cyclists arrived...one stopped and waited at the red light, the other just sailed right though!

It doesn't overly bother me to be honest as I'm no stickler for rules but but the volume of cyclists that do such things (in the city centre at least) is surprisingly large.

I have no problem by the way with plod doing the odd high visibility exercise to remind drivers of safe passing distances and they did seem especially proud of their super duper mat so I suppose they had better use it [emoji16]

[CropleyWasGod]

Hoards of police pulling over cars today and spending 15 minutes lecturing the drivers on how to overtake cyclists.
Basically, if you see someone on a bike, to escape a jail sentence, you have to turn around and take another route.
I'm quite happy to be inconvenienced as a driver for a few minutes, if it saves my life as a cyclist.

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[speedy_gonzales]

But I would challenge your statement about seeing more motorists breaking the law compared to cyclists. Spend 5 minutes at any set of traffic lights in and around Princess St (a not uncommon occurrence if a tram is any where near [emoji57]) and I will put a large wager on the fact you will see many more occurrences of cyclists jumping the lights, going onto the pavement etc than you will vehicle drivers.


Like you, I'm speaking from personal observation. Yesterday I seen more than one vehicle go through a blatant red light. Lost count of the number of drivers on their mobiles. Witnessed and experienced drivers speeding and also seen an old woman get harassed as a driver crept up on to the pavement behind her. The worst cycling I seen was a woman travelling along Princes St with a small dog in the front basket, the dog did not have a helmet on 🙄.
On another day that may be different!
The point remains though, regardless how people think cyclists are a nuisance, that does not give us drivers the right to endanger their lives.

[snooky]

There is always a few bad eggs no matter what bracket you put people in so I'm not defending one group over the other.

But I would challenge your statement about seeing more motorists breaking the law compared to cyclists. Spend 5 minutes at any set of traffic lights in and around Princess St (a not uncommon occurrence if a tram is any where near [emoji57]) and I will put a large wager on the fact you will see many more occurrences of cyclists jumping the lights, going onto the pavement etc than you will vehicle drivers.

I was sat yesterday morning waiting (as ever) to turn left from Waverley bridge onto Princess Street...4 cyclists arrived while I was sat there and every single one either went through the red light or decided that the pavement was their next port of call. I then was then sat outside Jenners in St Andrew Square for a minute and two cyclists arrived...one stopped and waited at the red light, the other just sailed right though!

It doesn't overly bother me to be honest as I'm no stickler for rules but but the volume of cyclists that do such things (in the city centre at least) is surprisingly large.

I have no problem by the way with plod doing the odd high visibility exercise to remind drivers of safe passing distances and they did seem especially proud of their super duper mat so I suppose they had better use it [emoji16]
I ride my bike now and again to run errands. I am well aware of my vulnerability on the roads so I try to use back roads and/or cycle paths where possible.
My main gripe is with cyclists who bash on regardless of anything else around them. I'm sure you've seen them. Head down, looking at the road two yards in front of themselves oblivious of what's ahead or behind.
On one after dark trip into town recently I passed cyclists at three different locations on the road with no lights. Crazy.

[Moulin Yarns]

I ride my bike now and again to run errands. I am well aware of my vulnerability on the roads so I try to use back roads and/or cycle paths where possible.
My main gripe is with cyclists who bash on regardless of anything else around them. I'm sure you've seen them. Head down, looking at the road two yards in front of themselves oblivious of what's ahead or behind.
On one after dark trip into town recently I passed cyclists at three different locations on the road with no lights. Crazy.

That reminds me of the time, I was driving in Woodlands Road, Glasgow heading east towards the motorway/Charing Cross when the cyclist in front of me went head first into the back of a Glasgow Corporation Bus!!! The lights had changes to red :greengrin

Like you, I do most of my cycling on cycle paths or quiet roads. but not this. http://etapecaledonia.co.uk/

[ColinNish]

To be honest, if cyclists choose to go through red lights, then that is their prerogative if they want to dice with death.

Its the ones cycling on pavements that do my nut in.

[Future17]

To be honest, if cyclists choose to go through red lights, then that is their prerogative if they want to dice with death.

Its the ones cycling on pavements that do my nut in.

It's not, as a red light means there is a high probability that pedestrians, other cyclists or vehicle drivers will be occupying (or about to occupy) the space into which they travel, potentially causing injury or death for those groups.

[Hibee87]

I ride my bike now and again to run errands. I am well aware of my vulnerability on the roads so I try to use back roads and/or cycle paths where possible.
My main gripe is with cyclists who bash on regardless of anything else around them. I'm sure you've seen them. Head down, looking at the road two yards in front of themselves oblivious of what's ahead or behind.
On one after dark trip into town recently I passed cyclists at three different locations on the road with no lights. Crazy.I nearly knocked a guy, potential junkie to be fair, off his bike in the dark as he had no lights. The gestures I received would indicate it was my fault but the guy was wearing all black, on a black bike and no lights in the dark. Fud

[snooky]

I nearly knocked a guy, potential junkie to be fair, off his bike in the dark as he had no lights. The gestures I received would indicate it was my fault but the guy was wearing all black, on a black bike and no lights in the dark. Fud

Probably angry because you ran over his box of Milk Tray.

[Moulin Yarns]

I nearly knocked a guy, potential junkie to be fair, off his bike in the dark as he had no lights. The gestures I received would indicate it was my fault but the guy was wearing all black, on a black bike and no lights in the dark. Fud

Where I live there are no pavement or street lights. My neighbour a former rector of a high school insists on walking the mile to the pub in winter in black clothes no torch and on the wrong side of the road with his back to the traffic. I am convinced he has a death wish

[lord bunberry]

These deliveroo cyclists are absolutely crazy. One of them is going to end up getting seriously hurt. I saw one of them cycle straight in a busses wing mirror yesterday. He came from the pavement on Lothian Road and was trying to weave in and out of the traffic to get to the other side of the road. I don't know if they've got a certain amount of time to get the food to the customer, but it can't be a healthy situation.

[snooky]

BBC website says 68 drivers stopped during the "operation how to pass a cyclist" Apparently all the drivers took on board what was advised. The police spokesman added that "the public all reacted in the same way". By public, do they mean the drivers? If so, what exactly was "the public's" concentric reaction to being stopped and lectured on how to pass a cyclist?

[Pete]

These deliveroo cyclists are absolutely crazy. One of them is going to end up getting seriously hurt. I saw one of them cycle straight in a busses wing mirror yesterday. He came from the pavement on Lothian Road and was trying to weave in and out of the traffic to get to the other side of the road. I don't know if they've got a certain amount of time to get the food to the customer, but it can't be a healthy situation.

Do you think the investors in Deliveroo give a **** about their driver or anyone who could have been injured. Traffic law is irrelevant to them.

Welcome to the gig economy mate.

[Jack]

I long for the time cyclists have to abide by the same guidance. How often do cyclists overtake and indeed undertake at traffic lights when there isn't the space car drivers are supposed to give them.

It also annoys me a bit on Leith Walk where the car hating council spent £7m making the street pedestrian and cycle friendly with nice wide pavements and wider than normal cycle lanes. Cyclists still use the @#£%&- pavements.

I think I'll start videoing them and putting it on Facebook!

[Mr Grieves]

I long for the time cyclists have to abide by the same guidance. How often do cyclists overtake and indeed undertake at traffic lights when there isn't the space car drivers are supposed to give them.

It also annoys me a bit on Leith Walk where the car hating council spent £7m making the street pedestrian and cycle friendly with nice wide pavements and wider than normal cycle lanes. Cyclists still use the @#£%&- pavements.

I think I'll start videoing them and putting it on Facebook!


On the flip side, how often do drivers intentionally block feeder lanes into advanced stop boxes, or stop in the advanced stop box itself? These boxes are there for a reason, but some drivers appear completely oblivious (or they don't care that they are risking cyclist's lives) to the fact that they shouldn't be stopping in them.

As for the cycle lanes on Leith Walk, are these on the pavement? The reason I ask is there are cycle lanes on the pavement, through Leith Links, which are often blocked by pedestrians. The only way to pass them is to cycle on the section designated for walking.

I know there's cyclists that are a pain in the hole - but so are some drivers and pedestrians!

[Jack]

On the flip side, how often do drivers intentionally block feeder lanes into advanced stop boxes, or stop in the advanced stop box itself? These boxes are there for a reason, but some drivers appear completely oblivious (or they don't care that they are risking cyclist's lives) to the fact that they shouldn't be stopping in them.

As for the cycle lanes on Leith Walk, are these on the pavement? The reason I ask is there are cycle lanes on the pavement, through Leith Links, which are often blocked by pedestrians. The only way to pass them is to cycle on the section designated for walking.

I know there's cyclists that are a pain in the hole - but so are some drivers and pedestrians!

I agree with your first point.

No, the cycle lanes are on the road.

There's no plausible excuse for cycling on the pavements, not that there is one for any pavement. Leith Walk is now a slow road, 20 mph aside, there are so many zebra crossings and pelican crossings it's hardly feasible to go much faster. Also drivers seem to be avoiding the road, it's really quiet in comparison with not so long ago.

[ColinNish]

I agree with your first point.

No, the cycle lanes are on the road.

There's no plausible excuse for cycling on the pavements, not that there is one for any pavement. Leith Walk is now a slow road, 20 mph aside, there are so many zebra crossings and pelican crossings it's hardly feasible to go much faster. Also drivers seem to be avoiding the road, it's really quiet in comparison with not so long ago.

Their feasible reason for riding on pavements is because roads are too dangerous. Go figure.

[speedy_gonzales]

No, the cycle lanes are on the road.



I'm fairly sure there are cycle lanes built in to the pavements on some parts of Leith Walk. There's certainly one around Shrubhill.

[speedy_gonzales]

I long for the time cyclists have to abide by the same guidance. How often do cyclists overtake and indeed undertake at traffic lights when there isn't the space car drivers are supposed to give them.


Although it might seem perverse, I'm unsure if the separation guidance does work both ways. A cyclist close passing a stationary car does not pose the same risk to the driver as a car passing close to a bike does to a cyclist.
I'm quite happy for cyclists to filter past at junctions, what does unnerve me is when cyclists can swarm around vehicles. It happens in London a lot, most of the time it's unsafe for the driver to move on the green light so the safest option is to wait, that usually just invites more cyclists to pass on both your left and right.

[snooky]

Although it might seem perverse, I'm unsure if the separation guidance does work both ways. A cyclist close passing a stationary car does not pose the same risk to the driver as a car passing close to a bike does to a cyclist.
I'm quite happy for cyclists to filter past at junctions, what does unnerve me is when cyclists can swarm around vehicles. It happens in London a lot, most of the time it's unsafe for the driver to move on the green light so the safest option is to wait, that usually just invites more cyclists to pass on both your left and right.

Not to mention the potential of scratching the car's bodywork with their pedals and handlebars.

[CropleyWasGod]

Although it might seem perverse, I'm unsure if the separation guidance does work both ways. A cyclist close passing a stationary car does not pose the same risk to the driver as a car passing close to a bike does to a cyclist.
I'm quite happy for cyclists to filter past at junctions, what does unnerve me is when cyclists can swarm around vehicles. It happens in London a lot, most of the time it's unsafe for the driver to move on the green light so the safest option is to wait, that usually just invites more cyclists to pass on both your left and right.
The separation guidance is supposed to protect the cyclist in both circumstances . I always stay at least a car door's length away when I'm passing them. That pisses off some other drivers, but my safety has to come first.

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[RyeSloan]

Although it might seem perverse, I'm unsure if the separation guidance does work both ways. A cyclist close passing a stationary car does not pose the same risk to the driver as a car passing close to a bike does to a cyclist.
I'm quite happy for cyclists to filter past at junctions, what does unnerve me is when cyclists can swarm around vehicles. It happens in London a lot, most of the time it's unsafe for the driver to move on the green light so the safest option is to wait, that usually just invites more cyclists to pass on both your left and right.

London cyclists are just mental...it's the power of the group for sure but wow it's a different world down there and makes the individual nonsense you see in Edinburgh pale into insignificance!

[Mr Grieves]

I agree with your first point.

No, the cycle lanes are on the road.

There's no plausible excuse for cycling on the pavements, not that there is one for any pavement. Leith Walk is now a slow road, 20 mph aside, there are so many zebra crossings and pelican crossings it's hardly feasible to go much faster. Also drivers seem to be avoiding the road, it's really quiet in comparison with not so long ago.

Adult cyclists should not be cycling on pavements designed for pedestrians only. I guess the point I'm trying to make is everybody(cyclists, drivers and pedestrians) could do with being a bit more respectful towards other road/path users.

[Mr Grieves]

https://twitter.com/theJeremyVine/status/860630362405437441

Pretty shocking video, the comments after are even worse! Man in a van attempts to seriously hurt a cyclist, but folk are more interested in discussing if the cyclist deserved it.