Dortmund model

[madhatter]

I'll admit that with no direct ties and without any German heritage my 2nd team is probably Dortmund. Love what they stand for and how they approach the game as well.

I think Hibs should emulate what Dortmund have done recently, obviously within our budgets etc. What they've done is kept hold of their homegrown talent as best as they could (brought through some useful players and kept them before selling them for good money - Gotze being an example).

Whilst they do this they've cherry picked German talent and when possible European talent (Dembele) and they build good teams. Even if they lose a player they seem to maintain such a high standard.

obviously for Hibs I think they should do similar as we've done with McGinn, looked a good prospect at St Mirren but now he's a top player in Scotland and an internationalist. Although, I have to admit for most of this season he has been mince compared to last. Hanlon should be an example, he used to look a fairly poor defender but now is quite solid with a decent partner beside him, keeping our homegrown and developing whilst recruiting hungry British/European talent surely has to be the aim. Opinions?

[yonder1875]

Went to a Dortmund game in the Bundesliga last season and stood on the Südtribüne and it was everything like they say it is, I was blown away. 25,000 crammed into behind that goal which was full to capacity 30/45 mins before kick off and the noise, colour and passion coming from that terrace for a run in the mill league game was unbelievable.

Anyone looking to go to a football game abroad.. look no further!!

[lord bunberry]

I'll admit that with no direct ties and without any German heritage my 2nd team is probably Dortmund. Love what they stand for and how they approach the game as well.

I think Hibs should emulate what Dortmund have done recently, obviously within our budgets etc. What they've done is kept hold of their homegrown talent as best as they could (brought through some useful players and kept them before selling them for good money - Gotze being an example).

Whilst they do this they've cherry picked German talent and when possible European talent (Dembele) and they build good teams. Even if they lose a player they seem to maintain such a high standard.

obviously for Hibs I think they should do similar as we've done with McGinn, looked a good prospect at St Mirren but now he's a top player in Scotland and an internationalist. Although, I have to admit for most of this season he has been mince compared to last. Hanlon should be an example, he used to look a fairly poor defender but now is quite solid with a decent partner beside him, keeping our homegrown and developing whilst recruiting hungry British/European talent surely has to be the aim. Opinions?
Our problem with that model seems to be the bringing through our own young talent. There seems to be a few right now with potential, but that's been the case since I first started watching hibs 35 years ago. Apart from the obvious generation, we've not really had a successful youth system. None of my hibs heroes apart from Kevin Harper have come through our youth system(apart from the golden generation ) we've had 1 successful generation in all my time supporting hibs.
i much prefer the atletico Bilbao philosophy of recruiting players from our area. There's far too many youngsters from Edinburgh and incredibly leith that sign for teams other than hibs. We should make it a matter of extreme pride to grow up in leith and sign for hibs. Celtic and hearts shouldn't get a look in.

[jgl07]

Borussia Dortmund are a product of the German model. That is a top league of 18 teams in a country of 80 million.

Generally it is one team per city. Hamburg and Munich do have two teams but St Pauli and Munich 1860 are in Bundesliga Two.

I really don't see that model working in Scotland.

Maybe with a combined English and Scottish League with one team for Edinburgh, one for Glasgow, one for Manchester, one for Liverpool, one for Birmingham, one for Sheffield, etc. etc.?

On reflexion it's a really bad idea!

[green day]

Difficult to replicate a model without the enormous amount of TV and sponsor dough they get.

From what I see, Hibs are doing no real different, just on a lot smaller budget.

[madhatter]

Our problem with that model seems to be the bringing through our own young talent. There seems to be a few right now with potential, but that's been the case since I first started watching hibs 35 years ago. Apart from the obvious generation, we've not really had a successful youth system. None of my hibs heroes apart from Kevin Harper have come through our youth system(apart from the golden generation ) we've had 1 successful generation in all my time supporting hibs.
i much prefer the atletico Bilbao philosophy of recruiting players from our area. There's far too many youngsters from Edinburgh and incredibly leith that sign for teams other than hibs. We should make it a matter of extreme pride to grow up in leith and sign for hibs. Celtic and hearts shouldn't get a look in.

I know what you mean but in terms of our failing to bring through youth - I actually think we've developed good squad level players and instead of keeping them and investing in better players for 1st team and keeping our homegrown to learn and flourish later in their career plus be ample deputes, we've binned them and signed some absolute garbage. I do agree we need to look at local area but lets be honest it has to go further than local area and should anyway because Scotland is a tiny country really...

As I said, our plan should be scout and sign the best youth from all over Scotland but primarily locally (we should be high up in the pecking order as our history of giving youth a great platform is well documented - Flecther, Miller, Brown, Whittacker, Riordan, O'Connor, Hanlon to list but a few, plus the development of McGinn since he came). We should develop them in to 1st team/squad player level and sign other more developed youth players from other Scottish/British/European clubs (e.g. McGinn). I understand us signing experienced players to help us get out this league (Holt) but I'd be concerned if that is the approach we are going to take after we get promoted...

Booth when he originally broke through looked outstanding and he is by no means a brilliant player but can someone explain why we regularly go scrambling to get LB cover for Stevenson but let Booth go for nothing? He is currently playing at a higher level than us as well, all a bit embarrassing and is sort of my point. We seem to let players go after they've broke on to the scene but lost their way slightly. Hoping the same doesn't happen to Harris especially as we can all see he has a good first touch and pace, he needs games and I hope we don't bin another decent youngster who will then likely do well in a team we compete against...

Are we really saying that Stanton and Handling aren't good enough to provide ample cover in midfield? I know Handling is not long back from a very long injury but we are in the Championship and we view these players as not good enough for cover? Are people forgetting how good Stanton was in approximately 10 games under Butcher I think it was, scored a fair few goals from outside the box from recollection. Just a shame, I think they still have potential and I think we have even better soon breaking through, hope we don't lose them too early (manager stability and better club management should hopefully prevent this).

[lord bunberry]

I know what you mean but in terms of our failing to bring through youth - I actually think we've developed good squad level players and instead of keeping them and investing in better players for 1st team and keeping our homegrown to learn and flourish later in their career plus be ample deputes, we've binned them and signed some absolute garbage. I do agree we need to look at local area but lets be honest it has to go further than local area and should anyway because Scotland is a tiny country really...

As I said, our plan should be scout and sign the best youth from all over Scotland but primarily locally (we should be high up in the pecking order as our history of giving youth a great platform is well documented - Flecther, Miller, Brown, Whittacker, Riordan, O'Connor, Hanlon to list but a few, plus the development of McGinn since he came). We should develop them in to 1st team/squad player level and sign other more developed youth players from other Scottish/British/European clubs (e.g. McGinn). I understand us signing experienced players to help us get out this league (Holt) but I'd be concerned if that is the approach we are going to take after we get promoted...

Booth when he originally broke through looked outstanding and he is by no means a brilliant player but can someone explain why we regularly go scrambling to get LB cover for Stevenson but let Booth go for nothing? He is currently playing at a higher level than us as well, all a bit embarrassing and is sort of my point. We seem to let players go after they've broke on to the scene but lost their way slightly. Hoping the same doesn't happen to Harris especially as we can all see he has a good first touch and pace, he needs games and I hope we don't bin another decent youngster who will then likely do well in a team we compete against...

Are we really saying that Stanton and Handling aren't good enough to provide ample cover in midfield? I know Handling is not long back from a very long injury but we are in the Championship and we view these players as not good enough for cover? Are people forgetting how good Stanton was in approximately 10 games under Butcher I think it was, scored a fair few goals from outside the box from recollection. Just a shame, I think they still have potential and I think we have even better soon breaking through, hope we don't lose them too early (manager stability and better club management should hopefully prevent this).
It was strange reading all that as I went from agreeing to disagreeing with what you said. I agree with what you say about Handling and Stanton(i would put Harris in there as well). Where I disagree is on our policy on recruiting young players. There's no way a promising young player from a leith school or a boys club like leith athletic should be singing for hearts or Celtic. We should be so close to these boys clubs that signing for hibs is the preferred option. We've got kids signing for other clubs because hibs are nowhere to be seen. That's not good enough.

[madhatter]

Difficult to replicate a model without the enormous amount of TV and sponsor dough they get.

From what I see, Hibs are doing no real different, just on a lot smaller budget.

Fail to see how TV and sponsor dough comes into it really. I didn't ask Hibs to challenge in the Champions league or to win the Bundesliga.

I want Hibs to challenge high up in the top division in Scotland to which all but 1 club have the same restrictions on finances (Rangers may one day have more or may one day be wiped out again by financial ruin).

I hope you are correct about Hibs doing roughly the same but I fear we may flip back to journeyman signings etc. Aberdeen have suddenly become quite successful, Ryan Jack I've always rated but Andrew Considine looked poor but yet they held on to him and now. Point I'm making is they've held on to a good batch of their young players and signed some of the best talents in Scottish football (getting older now though): Kenny McLean, Graeme Shinnie, Jonny Hayes. Plus scouted and recruited cleverly from further a field.

Imagine returning to days of: Owain Tudur Jones, Shelton Martis, Heffernan, and possibly the biggest joker in a Hibs shirt I've seen Rowan Vine. I could honestly list so many awful players we've signed whilst simultaneously showing decent youngsters the door. Hope it doesn't happen and on current form Shaw should be getting games next season. Porteous, Stirling, Mackie, Murray should not be far behind. I don't think this will happen and that saddens me. Hence why I said we need to be careful with how we approach recruitment.

[greenlex]

I know what you mean but in terms of our failing to bring through youth - I actually think we've developed good squad level players and instead of keeping them and investing in better players for 1st team and keeping our homegrown to learn and flourish later in their career plus be ample deputes, we've binned them and signed some absolute garbage. I do agree we need to look at local area but lets be honest it has to go further than local area and should anyway because Scotland is a tiny country really...

As I said, our plan should be scout and sign the best youth from all over Scotland but primarily locally (we should be high up in the pecking order as our history of giving youth a great platform is well documented - Flecther, Miller, Brown, Whittacker, Riordan, O'Connor, Hanlon to list but a few, plus the development of McGinn since he came). We should develop them in to 1st team/squad player level and sign other more developed youth players from other Scottish/British/European clubs (e.g. McGinn). I understand us signing experienced players to help us get out this league (Holt) but I'd be concerned if that is the approach we are going to take after we get promoted...

Booth when he originally broke through looked outstanding and he is by no means a brilliant player but can someone explain why we regularly go scrambling to get LB cover for Stevenson but let Booth go for nothing? He is currently playing at a higher level than us as well, all a bit embarrassing and is sort of my point. We seem to let players go after they've broke on to the scene but lost their way slightly. Hoping the same doesn't happen to Harris especially as we can all see he has a good first touch and pace, he needs games and I hope we don't bin another decent youngster who will then likely do well in a team we compete against...

Are we really saying that Stanton and Handling aren't good enough to provide ample cover in midfield? I know Handling is not long back from a very long injury but we are in the Championship and we view these players as not good enough for cover? Are people forgetting how good Stanton was in approximately 10 games under Butcher I think it was, scored a fair few goals from outside the box from recollection. Just a shame, I think they still have potential and I think we have even better soon breaking through, hope we don't lose them too early (manager stability and better club management should hopefully prevent this).
I get what you are saying but we have never spent any time scrambling for a left back since Stevenson made it his own. Cover or otherwise and certainly not regularly.

[yonder1875]

Difficult to replicate a model without the enormous amount of TV and sponsor dough they get.

From what I see, Hibs are doing no real different, just on a lot smaller budget.

The biggest difference is a designated safe-standing signing section, the foundations to it all.

[madhatter]

It was strange reading all that as I went from agreeing to disagreeing with what you said. I agree with what you say about Handling and Stanton(i would put Harris in there as well). Where I disagree is on our policy on recruiting young players. There's no way a promising young player from a leith school or a boys club like leith athletic should be singing for hearts or Celtic. We should be so close to these boys clubs that signing for hibs is the preferred option. We've got kids signing for other clubs because hibs are nowhere to be seen. That's not good enough.

I never said a promising young player from Leith should be getting signed by Hearts or Celtic. I don't think I even disagreed on that. What I was saying is they should be coming to Hibs and some of the best from Glasgow, Dundee, Aberdeen etc should be getting pinched from under the respective clubs' noses.

Ultimately we've got ourselves relegated and it was failure after failure - didn't trust youth so hired journeymen, journeymen are failures, manager gets sacked, clear out, new manager, new journeymen, journeymen fail, manager sacked, youth ignored as we are now in a relegation battle, relegated, new manager, now need to get up as soon as possible, good players signed, youth ignored largely because unfair to expect so much early and promotion crucial, fail to get promoted, youth ignored, go again with same manager, fail to get promoted, youth ignored, new manager after winning the cup, promotion ever more crucial, youth ignored. We are years behind sadly, Harris, Handling and Stanton could have been getting game time in a strong squad but instead are loaned out etc. because they cannot be relied on and the reason they can't be relied on is that their development is probably 1-2 years behind where it should be.


We've had stable squad since we've been down but with so many potentially leaving in the summer I'm hoping the loop we had been in for god knows how long doesn't start again. Hence why I raised Dortmund model - ignoring finances and what league they are in etc. they have seemingly created a sustainable model. Lose some of their top players and they just keep going.

[madhatter]

I get what you are saying but we have never spent any time scrambling for a left back since Stevenson made it his own. Cover or otherwise and certainly not regularly.

Eckersley. Example of right back being Neal Eardley for David Gray. Even ignoring Booth. Is Crane not good enough even to be Stevenson's depute? Is Dunsmore not good enough at RB to be David Gray's depute? Why waste funds on players that virtually never play?

[pacorosssco]

Great stadium fans but dortmund have resource way ahead other german teams fc hollywood aside and disliked equal measure bayern by rest german teams. Cologne 3rd biggest german city has dortmund supporter bars. All the money in EPL Leicester carry flag

[DC_Hibs]

As Hibs fans go over and provide support to one of the other great German clubs who don't have 1000 British day trippers for each home game. Just like you would appreciate visitors to Scotland going elsewhere than Celtc or Rangers. The atmosphere will be as good if not better and the city will definitely be better.

I agree the stadium and standing section is a cracker but having lived over there for many years and seen all stadiums and fans, the supposed yellow wall is way overhyped by many.

Will be there tomorrow actually but in an away end that will put them to shame once again.

As for suggesting we follow a Dortmund model.......

[greenlex]

Eckersley. Example of right back being Neal Eardley for David Gray. Even ignoring Booth. Is Crane not good enough even to be Stevenson's depute? Is Dunsmore not good enough at RB to be David Gray's depute? Why waste funds on players that virtually never play?
Exactly my point MH. Crane is stevensons cover. (Although Lennon did dick about with a solid back four rather than a straight swap for a couple of games after he was suspended) We haven't signed left back cover.

[Ozyhibby]

Bringing through youth players is a very difficult undertaking. Even at 16/17 it is very difficult to tell which boys will make that next step up to playing professional football against men at the level Hibs require.
Handling, Stanton and Harris haven't managed to make that step up and every other premier league club thinks so too.
A better example of a player we could have kept is Wotherspoon who continually is one of the most creative (in terms of assists) players in Scotland.
What we should be doing is making sure we grab the best young players who do make that step up before they go out our price range.


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[Ozyhibby]

On Dortmund, I was there a few weeks back as my boy is a big fan and while I was impressed and had a great time and the German people were really friendly, I couldn't help but think that with 81,000 at every game and massive tv and sponsorship income that they don't half under achieve. So maybe they are a bit like Hibs after all. [emoji3]


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[JDHibs]

Dundee Utd were doing quite well from following this model, unfortunately they sold more than they were bringing in players/prospect wise, so it ended in relegation.

Cherry picking players from down the leagues is a good model to follow, along with improving your own academy.

We seem to have the academy working reasonably well, they are sitting close to the top of the dev league, players like Martin, Crane and Murray have all been in or around the first team this season, with Allan, Porteous, Dunsmore & Shaw getting good plaudits from their loan teams or dev team performances. So theres a potential for 5 or 6 dev players getting to first team, if we do cherry pick players, Sibbald and Mallan (who im hearing we will move on) should be the players we aim for. May cost in fees, but both are young, hungry and great prospects, both have been involved in over 40 goals this season from midfield!

[madhatter]

Bringing through youth players is a very difficult undertaking. Even at 16/17 it is very difficult to tell which boys will make that next step up to playing professional football against men at the level Hibs require.
Handling, Stanton and Harris haven't managed to make that step up and every other premier league club thinks so too.
A better example of a player we could have kept is Wotherspoon who continually is one of the most creative (in terms of assists) players in Scotland.
What we should be doing is making sure we grab the best young players who do make that step up before they go out our price range.


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Making the step up requires games and all 3 haven't had enough, especially Stanton and Harris.

I pointed to Booth - we all thought he hadn't made the step up but is now, for the moment, playing for a team in the higher division.

Cummings has earned his place but lets not deny the fact he's been lucky in the regard of we were forced to use him during relegation year and his position normally gets extraordinary praise/criticism when compared to other positions - e.g. Suarez, Neymar and Messi get talked about more than Iniesta. Ever questioned why we seem to be good at bringing through goalscorers but are pretty shocking at every other position? When was the last time we brought through a successful goalkeeper? When was the last time we had a really successful defender come through (ignoring Hanlon who is getting on a bit now)? When was the last time we brought through a steady midfielder of McGinn or better quality? Only players I can think of are: Whittacker in defence, Brown, Thomson and Wotherspoon in midfield.

There is definitely a problem in getting non-attackers through our youth ranks and in to our first team. Are we really saying that sitting on the bench helps them learn a lot? Being in the dressing room helps them learn a lot? Rubbish, they need to be playing, they need to be making mistakes and learning from them. I guess following our current thinking Scott Martin will be a classy midfielder playing first-team football for us in 1 year (with getting no more than two 20min sub appearances next season), miraculously he'll learn everything he needs to know about mens football in 40mins. What age is he now anyway, 20? Crane is what? 21? These are becoming borderline youngsters, we certainly dropped in most of our "talented" players before now and I personally don't think it is because of talent, I think it is because of timing (we were relegated) and there is a reluctance to use the youth in these games. What game was it this season that Lennon moved someone on to cover at CB rather than bring on Crane and then later on in the match fixed that by bringing on Crane. I remember we were getting absolutely hammered and I remember the players asking for a change. Pretty sure he played Bartley at CB after Fontaine got injured. Bartley couldn't play CB in a million years. Lennon finally worked out that it would be better to play a defender and his option was Crane who actually did ok after he came on.

If we sign journeyman from other Scottish clubs then I will worry a lot for our future...its not the approach we should be taking. We surely have learnt that from years gone by...probably not though as we had a Kris Doolan thread here...People are even suggesting Stephen Dobbie!?!

[Ozyhibby]

Making the step up requires games and all 3 haven't had enough, especially Stanton and Harris.

I pointed to Booth - we all thought he hadn't made the step up but is now, for the moment, playing for a team in the higher division.

Cummings has earned his place but lets not deny the fact he's been lucky in the regard of we were forced to use him during relegation year and his position normally gets extraordinary praise/criticism when compared to other positions - e.g. Suarez, Neymar and Messi get talked about more than Iniesta. Ever questioned why we seem to be good at bringing through goalscorers but are pretty shocking at every other position? When was the last time we brought through a successful goalkeeper? When was the last time we had a really successful defender come through (ignoring Hanlon who is getting on a bit now)? When was the last time we brought through a steady midfielder of McGinn or better quality? Only players I can think of are: Whittacker in defence, Brown, Thomson and Wotherspoon in midfield.

There is definitely a problem in getting non-attackers through our youth ranks and in to our first team. Are we really saying that sitting on the bench helps them learn a lot? Being in the dressing room helps them learn a lot? Rubbish, they need to be playing, they need to be making mistakes and learning from them. I guess following our current thinking Scott Martin will be a classy midfielder playing first-team football for us in 1 year (with getting no more than two 20min sub appearances next season), miraculously he'll learn everything he needs to know about mens football in 40mins. What age is he now anyway, 20? Crane is what? 21? These are becoming borderline youngsters, we certainly dropped in most of our "talented" players before now and I personally don't think it is because of talent, I think it is because of timing (we were relegated) and there is a reluctance to use the youth in these games. What game was it this season that Lennon moved someone on to cover at CB rather than bring on Crane and then later on in the match fixed that by bringing on Crane. I remember we were getting absolutely hammered and I remember the players asking for a change. Pretty sure he played Bartley at CB after Fontaine got injured. Bartley couldn't play CB in a million years. Lennon finally worked out that it would be better to play a defender and his option was Crane who actually did ok after he came on.

If we sign journeyman from other Scottish clubs then I will worry a lot for our future...its not the approach we should be taking. We surely have learnt that from years gone by...probably not though as we had a Kris Doolan thread here...People are even suggesting Stephen Dobbie!?!

I agree, I wouldn't bother with Dobbie or Doolan. It's the 20 year olds who have proved they can play with senior pros we need to look at.
I also agree it's not looking good for Crane and Martin but the reality is they need games and they have not got them. If they are not regulars next season then I don't see them making it.
A 20 year old player should have 50-100 games under his belt. If he's not then he's in trouble as far as making a career out the game.


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[Jag7]

If we can't bring through our own we poach others ... Henderson for a glaring example... this boy will make it !!

[Itsnoteasy]

I'll admit that with no direct ties and without any German heritage my 2nd team is probably Dortmund. Love what they stand for and how they approach the game as well.

I think Hibs should emulate what Dortmund have done recently, obviously within our budgets etc. What they've done is kept hold of their homegrown talent as best as they could (brought through some useful players and kept them before selling them for good money - Gotze being an example).

Whilst they do this they've cherry picked German talent and when possible European talent (Dembele) and they build good teams. Even if they lose a player they seem to maintain such a high standard.

obviously for Hibs I think they should do similar as we've done with McGinn, looked a good prospect at St Mirren but now he's a top player in Scotland and an internationalist. Although, I have to admit for most of this season he has been mince compared to last. Hanlon should be an example, he used to look a fairly poor defender but now is quite solid with a decent partner beside him, keeping our homegrown and developing whilst recruiting hungry British/European talent surely has to be the aim. Opinions?

Why not follow the Southampton method. Half the population of the capital. How much have they raked in through transfer fees & replace them with talented players. As always it's the money that talks

[madhatter]

Why not follow the Southampton method. Half the population of the capital. How much have they raked in through transfer fees & replace them with talented players. As always it's the money that talks


Is that not pretty much what I'm suggesting?

Dortmund sold: Lewandowski, Gotze (bought back now), Hummels etc. but still perform really well and they always sign the talented players to replace outgoing. We've never really done that properly. McGinn is the first I can remember for a long time. Again, forgetting how much money these teams have, we only need to sign talent to help us in the league/cup competitions we compete in which clearly won't cost 10-30million like Dortmund and Southampton spend on players.

[Keith_M]

All we need now is another 65k+ every home game and the tens of millions paid by German TV and Sponsors.


No problem.

[madhatter]

All we need now is another 65k+ every home game and the tens of millions paid by German TV and Sponsors.


No problem.

Thats precisely what I said right enough...