Dad loses term-time court case

[snooky]

"Thou shalt not" .... yet again.
Do you still think you live in a free society?

[Colr]

"Thou shalt not" .... yet again.
Do you still think you live in a free society?

This the one whose gone right through the court system to get a cheap week at Disneyland? Must have been more expensive than paying the extra for the holiday.

[snooky]

This the one whose gone right through the court system to get a cheap week at Disneyland? Must have been more expensive than paying the extra for the holiday.

I get your point but that's no' my point.

[beensaidbefore]

"Thou shalt not" .... yet again.
Do you still think you live in a free society?

Could you share a link please? 😀

[ColinNish]

Happy with this. Means my holidays don't go up in price when the wee scrotes are supposed to be at school :greengrin

[speedy_gonzales]

The dad was initially "fined" £60, he refused and it escalated.
There's been no evidence he HAD to take her during term time. There's no reason why it had to be Florida so he could have spent the same amount of money during the bona-fide school holidays and had a great holiday elsewhere.
Personally, we've never taken the daughter out of school for holidays, that's our choice, but if I'd had I'd just pay the fine and move on. There's no point of principle to prove here and if pupils are allowed to come and go as they please during the year then EVERYONE is going to miss out. They get at least 11 weeks a year holiday, is that not enough?


(I understand some parents can't get time off during traditional holidays, where this happens and can be proved, schools will not fine)

[Jay]

The dad was initially "fined" £60, he refused and it escalated.
There's been no evidence he HAD to take her during term time. There's no reason why it had to be Florida so he could have spent the same amount of money during the bona-fide school holidays and had a great holiday elsewhere.
Personally, we've never taken the daughter out of school for holidays, that's our choice, but if I'd had I'd just pay the fine and move on. There's no point of principle to prove here and if pupils are allowed to come and go as they please during the year then EVERYONE is going to miss out. They get at least 11 weeks a year holiday, is that not enough?


(I understand some parents can't get time off during traditional holidays, where this happens and can be proved, schools will not fine)

His point was that his daughter had 97% attendance, his kids are at different schools and have different holidays. I agree with him, he shouldnt be fined. Ive taken my kids out for holidays. I try and work round the oct hols and take them out as few days as possible but they still miss some days. They have perfect attendance otherwise. So many kids rarely turn up, chase their parents. It seems daft that its expected to spend more money on a different holiday, one he can get hundreds of pounds cheaper if he waits a week or goes a week earlier.

[Bishop Hibee]

Commonplace for kids to be out of Edinburgh primary schools in term time for holidays.

[RyeSloan]

His point was that his daughter had 97% attendance, his kids are at different schools and have different holidays. I agree with him, he shouldnt be fined. Ive taken my kids out for holidays. I try and work round the oct hols and take them out as few days as possible but they still miss some days. They have perfect attendance otherwise. So many kids rarely turn up, chase their parents. It seems daft that its expected to spend more money on a different holiday, one he can get hundreds of pounds cheaper if he waits a week or goes a week earlier.

Exactly. His point was that this one week had no impact overall on her education or attainment nor indeed any meaningful impact on her excellent attendance record.

I find it strange that every court on the way up agreed with him until this point.

[G B Young]

I guess it's each to their own on this issue, but life changes when you have kids and it's my contention that you sign up to what goes with it, good and bad. You have four or five years before kids start school when you can still go away at any time of year, but in my view once they start school you just have to accept you can no longer take off on holiday whenever it suits you. A couple of days here and there, especially at the end of term is no big deal, but I know from friends who are teachers that it irritates the hell out of them when kids disappear off for a week or more on holiday during term time (and there are some serial offenders at my kids' school). It's unfair on the teachers as well as the majority of parents who abide by the term dates. The dad in this instance never even notified the school about the term time holiday so I can't say I have much sympathy for him. To blame the state is absurd.

[Colr]

I guess it's each to their own on this issue, but life changes when you have kids and it's my contention that you sign up to what goes with it, good and bad. You have four or five years before kids start school when you can still go away at any time of year, but in my view once they start school you just have to accept you can no longer take off on holiday whenever it suits you. I know from friends who are teachers that it irritates the hell out of them when kids disappear off on holiday during term time (and there are some serial offenders at my kids' school). It's unfair on the teachers as well as the majority of parents who abide by the term dates. The dad in this instance never even notified the school about the term time holiday so I can't say I have much sympathy for him. To blame the state is absurd.

I go along with that.

[Mr Grieves]

I guess it's each to their own on this issue, but life changes when you have kids and it's my contention that you sign up to what goes with it, good and bad. You have four or five years before kids start school when you can still go away at any time of year, but in my view once they start school you just have to accept you can no longer take off on holiday whenever it suits you. A couple of days here and there, especially at the end of term is no big deal, but I know from friends who are teachers that it irritates the hell out of them when kids disappear off for a week or more on holiday during term time (and there are some serial offenders at my kids' school). It's unfair on the teachers as well as the majority of parents who abide by the term dates. The dad in this instance never even notified the school about the term time holiday so I can't say I have much sympathy for him. To blame the state is absurd.

I agree.

And the ruling was not based on how the absence would impact the daughter, but the disruption it would cause to the rest of the class.

[beensaidbefore]

As far as I am concerned, there should be a stronger argument for the educational benefit of children being taken on a foreign break. The opportunity for them to experience the airport,flight,climate,different food,eating out, foreign language,kids from othern countries,swimming, playing games, building sand castles etc etc etc is priceless IMO, and potentially more than they would learn at school over the same period.

[ColinNish]

As far as I am concerned, there should be a stronger argument for the educational benefit of children being taken on a foreign break. The opportunity for them to experience the airport,flight,climate,different food,eating out, foreign language,kids from othern countries,swimming, playing games, building sand castles etc etc etc is priceless IMO, and potentially more than they would learn at school over the same period.

Sorry but that really depends on where you take them. A week in Benidorm is like being in Blackpool but with guaranteed sun. Really cultural. 😎

[G B Young]

Sorry but that really depends on where you take them. A week in Benidorm is like being in Blackpool but with guaranteed sun. Really cultural. 😎

Indeed. But that aside, why would these supposed educational benefits be any greater when taking a holiday in term time?

[snooky]

Could you share a link please? 😀

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-39504338

[RyeSloan]

I agree.

And the ruling was not based on how the absence would impact the daughter, but the disruption it would cause to the rest of the class.

Must admit I didn't fully understand that argument...what disruption can a kid cause by NOT being in class?

[ColinNish]

Indeed. But that aside, why would these supposed educational benefits be any greater when taking a holiday in term time?

I've no idea, ask @beensaidbefore, he's the one that said it. 😊

[snooky]

Kids will learn far more in travelling the world with their parents for a couple of weeks, be it Disneyland or wherever, than two weeks of your everyday learning at school.

[ColinNish]

Must admit I didn't fully understand that argument...what disruption can a kid cause by NOT being in class?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here but would it not be a disruption to other pupils when they are trying to catch up on work they missed whilst being on holiday? Teacher having to give extra attention to them?

[ColinNish]

Kids will learn far more in travelling the world with their parents for a couple of weeks, be it Disneyland or wherever, than two weeks of your everyday learning at school.

What exactly, I'm genuinely interested?

[Colr]

Kids will learn far more in travelling the world with their parents for a couple of weeks, be it Disneyland or wherever, than two weeks of your everyday learning at school.

That's one hell of a condemnation of state education!

That said, as working parents, we find it hard enough to ensure that we cover school holidays without taking additional leave during term time.

[northstandhibby]

Kids will learn far more in travelling the world with their parents for a couple of weeks, be it Disneyland or wherever, than two weeks of your everyday learning at school.

Agree with this.

Kids who travel to further afield normally (not always) learn from the experience of even simply just being abroad and in a different country and culture.

Mind you I enjoyed Butlins Ayr as a kid and all these beautiful Redcoats sent my young pulses racing :greengrin

glory glory

[G B Young]

I'm just playing devil's advocate here but would it not be a disruption to other pupils when they are trying to catch up on work they missed whilst being on holiday? Teacher having to give extra attention to them?

That's it pretty much. Anyone who knows a teacher will be aware that most are at their wit's end with the increasingly onerous levels of paperwork piled on top of the actual teaching part of the job. Why should they also be lumbered with having to bring kids up to speed whose parents simply disregard the official holiday dates? As I said, I'm not talking about a day or two here and there at the end of term but those who disappear for a week or two whenever suits them. It's more of an issue as kids get older and their curriculum more intense, but there's still a lot of formative learning which can be missed at a very young age when it comes to the basics of letters and numbers.

[Mr Grieves]

Must admit I didn't fully understand that argument...what disruption can a kid cause by NOT being in class?


When they come back from their holiday they require extra attention from the teacher to catch up. Meaning all the other kids, who haven't been on holiday, are held back.

[Mr Grieves]

I'm just playing devil's advocate here but would it not be a disruption to other pupils when they are trying to catch up on work they missed whilst being on holiday? Teacher having to give extra attention to them?

Beat me to it

[snooky]

That's one hell of a condemnation of state education!

That said, as working parents, we find it hard enough to ensure that we cover school holidays without taking additional leave during term time.

I'm not condemning the education system at all - far from it.
From personal experience, I've learned much more from travelling than I ever did over the same time in a classroom.

[Colr]

I'm not condemning the education system at all - far from it.
From personal experience, I've learned much more from travelling than I ever did over the same time in a classroom.

Sounds like one hell of a condemnation to me.

[Jay]

That's it pretty much. Anyone who knows a teacher will be aware that most are at their wit's end with the increasingly onerous levels of paperwork piled on top of the actual teaching part of the job. Why should they also be lumbered with having to bring kids up to speed whose parents simply disregard the official holiday dates? As I said, I'm not talking about a day or two here and there at the end of term but those who disappear for a week or two whenever suits them. It's more of an issue as kids get older and their curriculum more intense, but there's still a lot of formative learning which can be missed at a very young age when it comes to the basics of letters and numbers.

Teachers are at their wits end for far better reasons than a child having two weeks once a year off school. The teachers I know would say its the least of their problems...as for it being disruptive to the rest of the class and other parents, i must live in a different world. I couldnt care less if kids from my sons classes are off on holiday, and neither could my kids. Id have been more than happy for my boys to have done the catch up work as homework if necessary.

[ColinNish]

I'm not condemning the education system at all - far from it.
From personal experience, I've learned much more from travelling than I ever did over the same time in a classroom.

Still waiting on an explanation....

[Colr]

Still waiting on an explanation....

Didn't you know? Minnie Mouse explains Boyle's Law as part of the Disneyland Tour these days!

Just before creationism!

[ColinNish]

Didn't you know? Minnie Mouse explains Boyle's Law as part of the Disneyland Tour these days!

Just before creationism!

I must've missed that when i went to Disney - too much time spent on Soarin'. :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm not condemning the education system at all - far from it.
From personal experience, I've learned much more from travelling than I ever did over the same time in a classroom.

With that logic then 95% of ballistic missile scientists will come from gypsy/nomad families. :wink:

[ihibs7]

It would seem to me that the truth lies somewhere in between.

My two eldest are in different education authorities with nearly always different holidays. My wife and I can't pick and choose our holidays and have to work around colleagues to make sure we get two summer weeks together. Plus the fact we're effectively priced out of certain holidays at certain times of the year - not a comment on the right or wrongs but the realities.

But, i really feel for the working poor in these situations who are viified for taking kids out of school when they wouldn't otherwise be able to afford holidays. I've heard that certain schools in Edinburgh are missing around a third of pupils in the first couple of weeks after summer hols - incredibly disruptive for schools for sure, but sometimes a bloody good effort on the parents part to make sure the kids get a holiday at all.



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[Bishop Hibee]

If parents/guardians are the prime educators, shouldn't they decide if it's ok for them to miss a week's schooling to go on holiday? As I've said, in Edinburgh if you put a decent case you'll get the leave approved.

Only time I did it was when myself and my eldest 2 then at primary came up from England for the Livi final and I asked their headmaster for the Monday off. As a massive Toon fan he understood and agreed. Didn't need to bother as no after game party 😩.

A lot depends when they take them out. The last week of summer term is usually off timetable anyway for example.

[Just Jimmy]

Schools get too many holidays as it is...

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[RyeSloan]

I'm just playing devil's advocate here but would it not be a disruption to other pupils when they are trying to catch up on work they missed whilst being on holiday? Teacher having to give extra attention to them?

Well schools must have changed a lot since my day....special attention for a pupil cause they missed one whole week? Fat chance.

Primary level I doubt it would make much difference at all and at secondary it would be a case of here's the class notes on what you missed, that's the section in the textbook and here's the home work and that would be that. Assuming of course the teacher was that interested, they did have 30 other bammer teenagers to keep them occupied.

The concept of this kid getting all this extra special attention at the material cost of others because of one week seems rather overblown to me (I.e. Bollox [emoji57])

[Colr]

Well schools must have changed a lot since my day....special attention for a pupil cause they missed one whole week? Fat chance.

Primary level I doubt it would make much difference at all and at secondary it would be a case of here's the class notes on what you missed, that's the section in the textbook and here's the home work and that would be that. Assuming of course the teacher was that interested, they did have 30 other bammer teenagers to keep them occupied.

The concept of this kid getting all this extra special attention at the material cost of others because of one week seems rather overblown to me (I.e. Bollox [emoji57])

In my opinion (and experience), education is the most accessible aspect of social mobility. If one spurns it they are making an important choice about what they value.

This man's priorities are different from my own but I'm paying for his.

[G B Young]

Teachers are at their wits end for far better reasons than a child having two weeks once a year off school. The teachers I know would say its the least of their problems...as for it being disruptive to the rest of the class and other parents, i must live in a different world. I couldnt care less if kids from my sons classes are off on holiday, and neither could my kids. Id have been more than happy for my boys to have done the catch up work as homework if necessary.

I didn't say it was their biggest problem. I said it was an additional and unnecessary issue to add on to the already unreasonable workload many teachers are expected to take on (and I'm talking about teachers in both Scotland and England here). Personally I do care if other kids are led to believe it's fine to just bunk off on holiday whenever their parents decide. I think it's a poor example to set not only to their own kids but to those who stick to official holidays. If the parents go through the proper channels with a valid reason as to why they can't the break at any other time then it's up to the school to use their discretion but to give the green light to holidays whenever the families feel like it would surely open up a lot of problems. As I said, it's only my view but when you become a parent there are certain boundaries you should accept you need to work within.

[G B Young]

Kids will learn far more in travelling the world with their parents for a couple of weeks, be it Disneyland or wherever, than two weeks of your everyday learning at school.

Whether that's true or not I still don't see why the educational value of such trips would be any less if they did so during the school holidays instead of term time?

[Jay]

I didn't say it was their biggest problem. I said it was an additional and unnecessary issue to add on to the already unreasonable workload many teachers are expected to take on (and I'm talking about teachers in both Scotland and England here). Personally I do care if other kids are led to believe it's fine to just bunk off on holiday whenever their parents decide. I think it's a poor example to set not only to their own kids but to those who stick to official holidays. If the parents go through the proper channels with a valid reason as to why they can't the break at any other time then it's up to the school to use their discretion but to give the green light to holidays whenever the families feel like it would surely open up a lot of problems. As I said, it's only my view but when you become a parent there are certain boundaries you should accept you need to work within.

Well its not done my boy any harm. He missed school throughout primary and up to 3rd year in high school for family hols. Hes just passed his prelims with flying colours, is sitting 7 Nat 5s and aiming for 5 highers next year. Currently sitting with 100% attendance and is attending easter school lessons over this fortnight. Never had a complaint from his teachers or other parents about our family hols holding him or anybody else back. I set a very good example for my kids with a strong work ethic, dont do sick time and have high standards, we dont just bunk off on holiday, we plan carefully but i refuse to pay hundreds, if not more, for going a week or two earlier because the airlines and hotels make us pay a premium for school hols. Each to their own i suppose but i think its harsh to punish decent parents.

[snooky]

Well its not done my boy any harm. He missed school throughout primary and up to 3rd year in high school for family hols. Hes just passed his prelims with flying colours, is sitting 7 Nat 5s and aiming for 5 highers next year. Currently sitting with 100% attendance and is attending easter school lessons over this fortnight. Never had a complaint from his teachers or other parents about our family hols holding him or anybody else back. I set a very good example for my kids with a strong work ethic, dont do sick time and have high standards, we dont just bunk off on holiday, we plan carefully but i refuse to pay hundreds, if not more, for going a week or two earlier because the airlines and hotels make us pay a premium for school hols. Each to their own i suppose but i think its harsh to punish decent parents.

There lies the problem. It's not each to their own. We are being told by bureaucrats that we have no choice.
This is not 'the crime of the century' stuff we're talking about. You're spot on, Mrs S - and so was Orwell, it would appear.

[beensaidbefore]

Indeed. But that aside, why would these supposed educational benefits be any greater when taking a holiday in term time?

Some families just can't afford the prices in the school holidays. So if it was a choice between no holiday or one during the school term I would be for one in then school term.

[beensaidbefore]

Sorry but that really depends on where you take them. A week in Benidorm is like being in Blackpool but with guaranteed sun. Really cultural. 😎

You sound like a bit of a snob saying that. A child who has never been away would still benefit hugely even if it was a holiday resort like benidorm. Or is it only for those that can afford fancy holidays?

I have never been to benidorm and have non desire to go, but we have to be careful how we put that across. Will headmasters score holiday destinations against their own prejudices before giving permission to go?

[beensaidbefore]

There lies the problem. It's not each to their own. We are being told by bureaucrats that we have no choice.
This is not 'the crime of the century' stuff we're talking about. You're spot on, Mrs S - and so was Orwell, it would appear.

Not in Scotland though.

[CropleyWasGod]

You sound like a bit of a snob saying that. A child who has never been away would still benefit hugely even if it was a holiday resort like benidorm. Or is it only for those that can afford fancy holidays?

I have never been to benidorm and have non desire to go, but we have to be careful how we put that across. Will headmasters score holiday destinations against their own prejudices before giving permission to go?

I'm with you on that.

Experiences, be they travel or otherwise, are educational in themselves. Being in Benidorm would be exactly that. It may be a positive experience, it may be a negative one. Either way, a child going there must, by definition, learn something.

Indeed, from my experience, a child is likely to be as interested or as bored stiff, in Benidorm, Bognor or Bangkok. (notice I didn't use Blackpool, lest I P off the man himself.... :greengrin)

[beensaidbefore]

In my opinion (and experience), education is the most accessible aspect of social mobility. If one spurns it they are making an important choice about what they value.

This man's priorities are different from my own but I'm paying for his.

I'm not sure I understand how you are paying for it?

[beensaidbefore]

I'm with you on that.

Experiences, be they travel or otherwise, are educational in themselves. Being in Benidorm would be exactly that. It may be a positive experience, it may be a negative one. Either way, a child going there must, by definition, learn something.

Indeed, from my experience, a child is as likely to be interested or as bored stiff, in Benidorm, Bognor or Bangkok. (notice I didn't use Blackpool, lest I P off the man himself.... :greengrin)

Exactly.

[Steve-O]

When they come back from their holiday they require extra attention from the teacher to catch up. Meaning all the other kids, who haven't been on holiday, are held back.

To what extent? 'Held back' for maybe 10-15 minutes?

I went away in high school for 2 weeks once and don't recall any huge effort having to catch up, nor anyone else suffering for my absence.

[Colr]

I'm not sure I understand how you are paying for it?

Taxes pay for state education.

[beensaidbefore]

You are hardly paying for this guys family. OK you make a contribution but so do I. He's maybe owe you 1p?

[NAE NOOKIE]

If the education system wets its knickers over a kid missing a week of school because it affects their education and future development who in the Scottish education system do I sue over that fact that an administrative error meant I had to miss the whole of primary 7 back in the day :grr:

[Hibrandenburg]

I can understand the arguments on both sides but I can't help but feel there's an important lesson being overlooked here and that's the "you can't always just do what the **** you like" lesson.

[ColinNish]

I can understand the arguments on both sides but I can't help but feel there's an important lesson being overlooked here and that's the "you can't always just do what the **** you like" lesson.

This is where I'm at. Imagine if you could take your kids out of school whenever you wanted?

In fact, why don't we just go down the road of scrapping school holidays altogether, and kids just get same holiday entitlement as adults - minimum 4 weeks whenever you want plus public holidays? How would that suit folk?

[CropleyWasGod]

This is where I'm at. Imagine if you could take your kids out of school whenever you wanted?

In fact, why don't we just go down the road of scrapping school holidays altogether, and kids just get same holiday entitlement as adults - minimum 4 weeks whenever you want plus public holidays? How would that suit folk?
Easy Jet would love it 😁

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[Hibrandenburg]

Easy Jet would love it 😁

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Easyjet love that everyone needs to book their holidays at the same time. That's why they have a dynamic computerised booking system that recognises when there's a demand on certain routes at a certain time and pumps up the prices accordingly. That's where they make their money and summer holidays, concerts, festivals and football games are where they make the most profits. All other low demand flights try and cover the cost. It's a bit like "Build it and they will come" except it's "offer the flight and some of them will be in high demand".

[Danderhall Hibs]

This is where I'm at. Imagine if you could take your kids out of school whenever you wanted?

In fact, why don't we just go down the road of scrapping school holidays altogether, and kids just get same holiday entitlement as adults - minimum 4 weeks whenever you want plus public holidays? How would that suit folk?

:agree: makes sense. If it's not disruptive to the other kids and the teacher to take kids out at anytime why not just make it a whenever you like style process.

[RyeSloan]

This is where I'm at. Imagine if you could take your kids out of school whenever you wanted?

In fact, why don't we just go down the road of scrapping school holidays altogether, and kids just get same holiday entitlement as adults - minimum 4 weeks whenever you want plus public holidays? How would that suit folk?

Well the long summer holiday was originally so the kids could help with the harvest (or so legend has it) and I doubt that such a long break is overly good from a continuous education perspective....bloomin' loved them as a kid tho.

A better idea would be to give adults the same holidays as the kids. Now that would be something [emoji23]

[Colr]

Easyjet love that everyone needs to book their holidays at the same time. That's why they have a dynamic computerised booking system that recognises when there's a demand on certain routes at a certain time and pumps up the prices accordingly. That's where they make their money and summer holidays, concerts, festivals and football games are where they make the most profits. All other low demand flights try and cover the cost. It's a bit like "Build it and they will come" except it's "offer the flight and some of them will be in high demand".

The trick is spotting destinations that aren't subject to these peaks like business destinations and holidaying there.

[Sir David Gray]

I like to think that school is preparing you for a life in the workplace, when you can only take holidays when you have available time off to take leave from your job.

I fully understand and sympathise with parents who face a huge increase in the cost of a holiday during the school holiday period. However schools are off for a total of around 3 months every year so I think it's reasonable to suggest that no holidays are taken during term time, except in extreme circumstances.

I also think airlines and holiday companies should be made to put a cap on the increase that they put on their holidays during school holiday time. It's a scandal that holidays are hundreds of pounds (if not thousands) more expensive when the schools are off.

[ColinNish]

I like to think that school is preparing you for a life in the workplace, when you can only take holidays when you have available time off to take leave from your job.

I fully understand and sympathise with parents who face a huge increase in the cost of a holiday during the school holiday period. However schools are off for a total of around 3 months every year so I think it's reasonable to suggest that no holidays are taken during term time, except in extreme circumstances.

I also think airlines and holiday companies should be made to put a cap on the increase that they put on their holidays during school holiday time. It's a scandal that holidays are hundreds of pounds (if not thousands) more expensive when the schools are off.

It's called supply and demand. Thats how business works.

[speedy_gonzales]

I also think airlines and holiday companies should be made to put a cap on the increase that they put on their holidays during school holiday time. It's a scandal that holidays are hundreds of pounds (if not thousands) more expensive when the schools are off.
There's an argument that package holidays during the summer are based on peak rates and the shoulder seasons are discounted to encourage travel for those that normally wouldn't?
It's the same price fluctuation you find when buying a caravan or a motorbike either in March or October.
Supply & demand * market forces!

[danhibees1875]

The trick is spotting destinations that aren't subject to these peaks like business destinations and holidaying there.

Ah, family holidays in Frankfurt. What a time.

I had time out of school on a few occasions when I was younger as my dad worked shifts and I don't think it done me any harm. I remember doing some school work on flights right enough, probably came back further ahead of the class - the last week of school before the summer holidays didn't tend to be the most productive.

I'd agree with the poster who pointed out the benefits of the experience that going abroad brings and exploring different cultures and learning how others live.

I'll back the idea that adults should get 7 weeks summer holidays and weeks around Christmas, Easter and October though - that's a winner in my eyes! :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

The trick is spotting destinations that aren't subject to these peaks like business destinations and holidaying there.


Actually, the real trick is to holiday in the UK, then Easyjet don't make anything :wink:

[Jack]

Kids learning from travel during term time would learn just as much traveling during holiday time. It's a pretty lame excuse for dragging kids out of school.

Where do you draw the line? 1 week, 2 weeks? Would it be ok to take kids out of school for 3 months visiting family in Australia or India, New Zealand or Pakistan?

I wonder if in private schools, where parents are paying cash upfront for their kids education, they have the same problems? I wonder how far they'd get in demanding a rebate for the time their kids miss?

[Killiehibbie]

Actually, the real trick is to holiday in the UK, then Easyjet don't make anything :wink:Just swap your flip flops for wellies and have a wonderful time.

[Steve-O]

This is where I'm at. Imagine if you could take your kids out of school whenever you wanted?

In fact, why don't we just go down the road of scrapping school holidays altogether, and kids just get same holiday entitlement as adults - minimum 4 weeks whenever you want plus public holidays? How would that suit folk?

Would be better for parents!

[ColinNish]

Ah, family holidays in Frankfurt. What a time.

I had time out of school on a few occasions when I was younger as my dad worked shifts and I don't think it done me any harm. I remember doing some school work on flights right enough, probably came back further ahead of the class - the last week of school before the summer holidays didn't tend to be the most productive.

I'd agree with the poster who pointed out the benefits of the experience that going abroad brings and exploring different cultures and learning how others live.

I'll back the idea that adults should get 7 weeks summer holidays and weeks around Christmas, Easter and October though - that's a winner in my eyes! :greengrin

Come on, the bit in bold is just complete tosh! Learning how others live on a weeks holiday in a hotel in Torremolinos or Dubai. Explain that one to me.

[CropleyWasGod]

Come on, the bit in bold is just complete tosh! Learning how others live on a weeks holiday in a hotel in Torremolinos or Dubai. Explain that one to me.
Picking up bits of language for one thing.

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[speedy_gonzales]

Picking up bits of language for one thing.


Holá, dos cerveza por favor!

All you'll ever REALLY need surely?

[CropleyWasGod]

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[danhibees1875]

Come on, the bit in bold is just complete tosh! Learning how others live on a weeks holiday in a hotel in Torremolinos or Dubai. Explain that one to me.

Well, i tend to do a few excursion on a holiday that tend to have some form of educational benefit on top of the wider geographical knowledge i pick up. I'll concede, not everyone will do that though - perhaps just the way my parents done it and what i now enjoy doing.

As mentioned previously, the whole experience builds understanding of the world - from time keeping and organisation (get to the airport with hours to spare and bring your passport, tickets and enough clothes for 2 weeks) to thinking about how aeroplanes work and the reasons why the time and climate is different when you get there. All of which id argue are more valuable than the maths lessons learning Pythagoras theorem and how to differentiate equations have been...


If there is no difference to the family between going away during term time and the alloted holidays then i think the later should be chosen but if there are circumstances - and that includes financial reasons- then i think the educational and character building experience of a holiday should be considered before taking action against parents taking their children out of school.

[Jack]

Well, i tend to do a few excursion on a holiday that tend to have some form of educational benefit on top of the wider geographical knowledge i pick up. I'll concede, not everyone will do that though - perhaps just the way my parents done it and what i now enjoy doing.

As mentioned previously, the whole experience builds understanding of the world - from time keeping and organisation (get to the airport with hours to spare and bring your passport, tickets and enough clothes for 2 weeks) to thinking about how aeroplanes work and the reasons why the time and climate is different when you get there. All of which id argue are more valuable than the maths lessons learning Pythagoras theorem and how to differentiate equations have been...


If there is no difference to the family between going away during term time and the alloted holidays then i think the later should be chosen but if there are circumstances - and that includes financial reasons- then i think the educational and character building experience of a holiday should be considered before taking action against parents taking their children out of school.

To be honest I see no difference between doing that during term time or holiday time so there's no extra benefits anywhere in this in pulling the child from school. Maybe, given no benefit it's more important that a child learns to live within the bounds of the society they live in.

[ColinNish]

Well, i tend to do a few excursion on a holiday that tend to have some form of educational benefit on top of the wider geographical knowledge i pick up. I'll concede, not everyone will do that though - perhaps just the way my parents done it and what i now enjoy doing.

As mentioned previously, the whole experience builds understanding of the world - from time keeping and organisation (get to the airport with hours to spare and bring your passport, tickets and enough clothes for 2 weeks) to thinking about how aeroplanes work and the reasons why the time and climate is different when you get there. All of which id argue are more valuable than the maths lessons learning Pythagoras theorem and how to differentiate equations have been...


If there is no difference to the family between going away during term time and the alloted holidays then i think the later should be chosen but if there are circumstances - and that includes financial reasons- then i think the educational and character building experience of a holiday should be considered before taking action against parents taking their children out of school.

Sorry, you were doing fine until your 2nd paragraph, and as far as I'm concerned the points you make are just silly. Time keeping? Packing clothes for a holiday? Thinking how a plane works? Did you think about these things when you were a bairn or even get involved with them? I certainly didn't.

Lets just cut to the chase here (and this isn't aimed at you BTW). Folk can dress it up how they like but it really does just boil down to saving money.

[snooky]

To be honest I see no difference between doing that during term time or holiday time so there's no extra benefits anywhere in this in pulling the child from school. Maybe, given no benefit it's more important that a child learns to live within the bounds of the society they live in.

And the bindings are getting tighter by day - that's kinda my point. They're squeezing us into submission bit by bit.

[northstandhibby]

Sorry, you were doing fine until your 2nd paragraph, and as far as I'm concerned the points you make are just silly. Time keeping? Packing clothes for a holiday? Thinking how a plane works? Did you think about these things when you were a bairn or even get involved with them? I certainly didn't.

Lets just cut to the chase here (and this isn't aimed at you BTW). Folk can dress it up how they like but it really does just boil down to saving money.

What does reading books do for a kid?

Answer - it expands their mindset just the same as travelling does especially abroad. It develops them same as any type learning does. It gets them away from the same old closed minds of some folk who've never travelled or read a book or ever done anything unexpected. Its not easy for folk without pots of cash and why should they be denied the same opportunity to help their kids widen their horizons as folks who can afford to take their kids away during the vastly more expensive set holiday time.

glory glory

[McD]

I understand the supply and demand argument, however the crucial difference here is that one doesn't get fined depending on when they buy a car, or anything else.

I also understand the 'missing education time' argument also.

Surely there could be a happy medium where there is a cap on how much the price can fluctuate by?

[RyeSloan]

I understand the supply and demand argument, however the crucial difference here is that one doesn't get fined depending on when they buy a car, or anything else.

I also understand the 'missing education time' argument also.

Surely there could be a happy medium where there is a cap on how much the price can fluctuate by?

Who would set such a cap and why?

[McD]

Who would set such a cap and why?


Why - less/no need or desire to take children out of school if holidays are kept to a fairly consistent cost

who - government and/or independent body

[Hibrandenburg]

Why - less/no need or desire to take children out of school if holidays are kept to a fairly consistent cost

who - government and/or independent body

Why would a government hinder the profit margin made by companies that they then tax to build and sustain things like schools in the first place?

[Scouse Hibee]

I have little sympathy for him, my son has long since left school but my wife works in a high school so school holiday prices for me too.

[RyeSloan]

Why - less/no need or desire to take children out of school if holidays are kept to a fairly consistent cost

who - government and/or independent body

And what would government know about pricing holidays?

And if you were to write said legislation would all holidays count or just ones that suit kids? What would count as a holiday that would therefore be under the cap? Is it the price of the flight you are capping or the food or the accommodation or the transfers or the activities?

I could go on (and on [emoji23]) but I'll politely suggest yer idea is totally bonkers even if it may be well intentioned [emoji12]

[McD]

And what would government know about pricing holidays?

And if you were to write said legislation would all holidays count or just ones that suit kids? What would count as a holiday that would therefore be under the cap? Is it the price of the flight you are capping or the food or the accommodation or the transfers or the activities?

I could go on (and on [emoji23]) but I'll politely suggest yer idea is totally bonkers even if it may be well intentioned [emoji12]


All fair points 😂

[RyeSloan]

All fair points [emoji23]

[emoji38][emoji106][emoji108]

[heretoday]

Wasn't the father taking his kid to Florida for the holiday? Wouldn't a holiday in Spain be cheaper even in the school vacation?

Personally I'd have been mortified if my parents had suggested I miss a week of school for holidays. There's important stuff goes on that a kid doesn't want to miss out on - not just the lessons.

[snooky]

Wasn't the father taking his kid to Florida for the holiday? Wouldn't a holiday in Spain be cheaper even in the school vacation?

Personally I'd have been mortified if my parents had suggested I miss a week of school for holidays. There's important stuff goes on that a kid doesn't want to miss out on - not just the lessons.

It would appear we have two schools (no pun intended) of thought on this matter, and that's fine.
What isn't fine is that one school of thought is being dictated to by the officials of the other school of thought.
That's where I have the problem.

[Hibrandenburg]

The rules are the rules. Personally I think the biggest lesson this guy's kids will get is that school is of less importance than holidays and rules are there to be broken or at least only those rules you agree with are to be followed.

School is there to prepare kids for integration in our society and bit by bit year after year the effectiveness of the system has been undermined by a shift in values that has diminished the authority of schools and school teachers. Some kids see little or no rules and responsibility at home, if we continually chip away at our schools authority and the lesson that gives then we need not be surprised at the knock on effects.

[sleeping giant]

When my eldest kids were wee Bairns , I always booked our holidays to start on their last week of school.
This was the only way we could have afforded it and this was in the days when we went to Haven parks for our holidays.
I was horrified when I first priced it for mid july. £900 p/w for a caravan in Devon. This drops the earlier you can go so we ended up going late June for £400 p/w.
The English holidays are the killer. This is where the price hike really kicks in.

As an aside , I've just booked a 2 week self catering holiday in Gran Canaria for 4 for July for £825 flying from Birmingham.
Not expecting much for that price :greengrin

[Allant1981]

i was taken out of school a couple of times as a kid to go on holiday as my parents couldnt afford to go during the holidays, didnt do me any harm, i have a good job, nice house and nice car, as far as i know none of my school friends suffered due to me being out of school for a week either, i personally havent done it wih my boy but if it meant him getting a holiday and missing the last week or so of school then i may be tempted at some point also

[ColinNish]

i was taken out of school a couple of times as a kid to go on holiday as my parents couldnt afford to go during the holidays, didnt do me any harm, i have a good job, nice house and nice car, as far as i know none of my school friends suffered due to me being out of school for a week either, i personally havent done it wih my boy but if it meant him getting a holiday and missing the last week or so of school then i may be tempted at some point also

The point being "a couple of times". Not every year you were at school, twice a year.

[Andy74]

The rules are the rules. Personally I think the biggest lesson this guy's kids will get is that school is of less importance than holidays and rules are there to be broken or at least only those rules you agree with are to be followed.

School is there to prepare kids for integration in our society and bit by bit year after year the effectiveness of the system has been undermined by a shift in values that has diminished the authority of schools and school teachers. Some kids see little or no rules and responsibility at home, if we continually chip away at our schools authority and the lesson that gives then we need not be surprised at the knock on effects.

His argument is that he thought he was playing within the rules though.

The rules were worded to reflect the need for 'regular' attendance. He believed this was viewed as an overall record, which could certainly be classed as regular.

[Hibrandenburg]

His argument is that he thought he was playing within the rules though.

The rules were worded to reflect the need for 'regular' attendance. He believed this was viewed as an overall record, which could certainly be classed as regular.

Ignorantia juris non excusat!

[Andy74]

Ignorantia juris non excusat!

Indeed bur this wasn't a case of not knowing the rules, it was the way the rules were written and is an interpretation point. Previous case law on the issue appears to have been overturned with this one too.

[Hibrandenburg]

Indeed bur this wasn't a case of not knowing the rules, it was the way the rules were written and is an interpretation point. Previous case law on the issue appears to have been overturned with this one too.

The rules are quite clear. Only with the agreement of the head teacher is he allowed to take his kid out of school, he had no such permission.

[snooky]

The rules are quite clear. Only with the agreement of the head teacher is he allowed to take his kid out of school, he had no such permission.

The result of your leave request therefore bearing heavily on what kind of headmaster you happens to be at your school. A laissez-fairer or a disciplinarian.

[beensaidbefore]

The result of your leave request therefore bearing heavily on what kind of headmaster you happens to be at your school. A laissez-fairer or a disciplinarian.

Or if you get on with the school, or if your big brother used to be a dick in his maths class, or if you are on the pta council, or you run the school team, etc etc

[Colr]

Kids learning from travel during term time would learn just as much traveling during holiday time. It's a pretty lame excuse for dragging kids out of school.

Where do you draw the line? 1 week, 2 weeks? Would it be ok to take kids out of school for 3 months visiting family in Australia or India, New Zealand or Pakistan?

I wonder if in private schools, where parents are paying cash upfront for their kids education, they have the same problems? I wonder how far they'd get in demanding a rebate for the time their kids miss?

Private schools get longer holidays so holidays can be booked just outside of the peak period.

Nevertheless some parents still prefer an additional week in Dubai to returning their child on time. Tends to be the less academic kids with the less academic parents IMO. Might be different at senior school.

[Baw187]

I personally think the school holiday system is keek. There's no need for 6/7 weeks off in the summer. Shorten it to 4 weeks and give all kids and teachers the option for 2 weeks off when they want with exceptions around exam times. Not beyond the wit of man to provide a system of catch up and cover for teachers. It's not just the price for somewhere like Florida or DL Paris. It's heaving in the school holidays and basically detracts from the experience with all the queuing.

[snooky]

Private schools get longer holidays so holidays can be booked just outside of the peak period.

Nevertheless some parents still prefer an additional week in Dubai to returning their child on time. Tends to be the less academic kids with the less academic parents IMO. Might be different at senior school.

If your kids go to boarding school you probably don't give a damn about the brats being with you on holiday anyway. They won't be missed. That's definitely one of the benefits of being high falutin'.

[ColinNish]

If your kids go to boarding school you probably don't give a damn about the brats being with you on holiday anyway. They won't be missed. That's definitely one of the benefits of being high falutin'.

He never said boarding schools, he said private schools.

[Colr]

If your kids go to boarding school you probably don't give a damn about the brats being with you on holiday anyway. They won't be missed. That's definitely one of the benefits of being high falutin'.

Yes. I was referring to day schools but, yes, boarding school would be different again.

I can't comment on them. They're quite a way above my social bracket!

[snooky]

He never said boarding schools, he said private schools.

I know CN, I said boarding schools because my point wouldn't work otherwise :wink:

[ColinNish]

I know CN, I said boarding schools because my point wouldn't work otherwise :wink:

:greengrin

[heretoday]

Whether that's true or not I still don't see why the educational value of such trips would be any less if they did so during the school holidays instead of term time?

Is Disneyland a mind-broadening experience? I would have thought the reverse was the case.

Go camping in France or whatever and get your kids to try and speak the lingo. It's not too pricey. Just takes a bit of effort.

[ColinNish]

Is Disneyland a mind-broadening experience? I would have thought the reverse was the case.

Go camping in France or whatever and get your kids to try and speak the lingo. It's not too pricey. Just takes a bit of effort.

Woah there! That would take way too much effort for some folk!! 😊

[Mr Grieves]

To what extent? 'Held back' for maybe 10-15 minutes?

I went away in high school for 2 weeks once and don't recall any huge effort having to catch up, nor anyone else suffering for my absence.

Good for you. The fact the courts disagree perhaps means that your recollections are wrong. Maybe the fact that foreign travel is easier now than it's ever been, schools are now seeing a real disruptive effect, with more and more kids missing classes? But you know better than the teachers and courts :aok:

Anyway, these rules have affected me since August when my 5 year old son started school. He's pretty well travelled, as we were previously able to go on holiday when we wanted. This Summer we're just sticking to our usual holiday budget but being a bit more adventurous. We've booked cheap flights to Romania in July, and booked an apartment in Transylvania for two weeks. it may not be Florida, but atleast we're spending time together, nice weather and he gets to experience another culture, all without setting a bad example or causing disruption.

[Colr]

Good for you. The fact the courts disagree perhaps means that your recollections are wrong. Maybe the fact that foreign travel is easier now than it's ever been, schools are now seeing a real disruptive effect, with more and more kids missing classes? But you know better than the teachers and courts :aok:

Anyway, these rules have affected me since August when my 5 year old son started school. He's pretty well travelled, as we were previously able to go on holiday when we wanted. This Summer we're just sticking to our usual holiday budget but being a bit more adventurous. We've booked cheap flights to Romania in July, and booked an apartment in Transylvania for two weeks. it may not be Florida, but atleast we're spending time together, nice weather and he gets to experience another culture, all without setting a bad example or causing disruption.

Kind of my approach but then he's missing out on the lifechanging, dizzying intellectual heights of Disneyland or Dubai.

The one time I did take my boy out of school for a few days for a family event, I jammed something educational into the visit and asked the school for permission first.

[Hibby Bairn]

Last two weeks of June at school are a farce anyway. Teachers winding down for the big break. Not much curriculum learning going on at all.

[HibernianJK]

Wasn't the father taking his kid to Florida for the holiday? Wouldn't a holiday in Spain be cheaper even in the school vacation?

Personally I'd have been mortified if my parents had suggested I miss a week of school for holidays. There's important stuff goes on that a kid doesn't want to miss out on - not just the lessons.

If your parents offered you a family holiday to Florida in exchange for missing one week of school you would have been mortified? Just not seeing it IMO.

I missed a week of primary school over October holidays for a family holiday to Florida but I believe my mum had informed the school first. No problem.

[snooky]

Generally, I have found that school teachers treat/talk to people as if they are pupils in their classroom.
They don't seem to be able to switch off the "I'm in charge" mode.
(Please note I did use the word "GENERALLY").

[Danderhall Hibs]

Generally, I have found that school teachers treat/talk to people as if they are pupils in their classroom.
They don't seem to be able to switch off the "I'm in charge" mode.
(Please note I did use the word "GENERALLY").

I agree it's not all of them, however definitely some do. I put it down to them never having left school - primary to secondary to uni back to school.

Institutionalised.

[Hibby Bairn]

Generally, I have found that school teachers treat/talk to people as if they are pupils in their classroom.
They don't seem to be able to switch off the "I'm in charge" mode.
(Please note I did use the word "GENERALLY").

Even down to providing children's chairs to sit on at primary school parents' nights!!

[Danderhall Hibs]

Even down to providing children's chairs to sit on at primary school parents' nights!!

That's so they are in control and can look down on you.

[calumhibee1]

I once went to Florida for 3 weeks and got back the day the summer holidays started. Done me no harm what so ever, was the best summer I've ever had. The price increase between going on holiday to Florida for a family of say 4 going in June and going in July can literally be about £2500 - the flights alone in July can be around £1000 a head. No wonder people are taking them out of school to go.