War with Spain

[lucky]

Just when you things could not get any worse the Tory right claiming May would go to war over the sovereignty of Gibraltar.
https://www.indy100.com/article/michael-howard-theresa-may-brexit-gibraltar-war-eu-referendum-independence-7663006

[SkintHibby]

Seriously, the sooner Scotland splits from the United Kingdom the better.

The tories are dragging us all in to a dark place.

[Hibrandenburg]

Even just talking about **** like this in the media is mental. The sooner we get out of this nuthouse the better. If this doesn't persuade the majority of sensible Scots that we need to ditch Westminster ASAP then nothing will.

[makaveli1875]

i saw a large convoy of tanks pass my house earlier , was wondering what they were upto . Better get the windows blacked out tonight lads

[johnbc70]

https://youtu.be/r3BO6GP9NMY

[stoneyburn hibs]

Mental, All because the Spanish won't veto the Scots on joining the EU ?
Spain has played a stormer regarding Gibraltar, meanwhile the Tories continue to paint themselves into a corner.

[Hibrandenburg]

i saw a large convoy of tanks pass my house earlier , was wondering what they were upto . Better get the windows blacked out tonight lads

Aye, because rattling your sabre after navigating yourself into a corner is a sane thing to do. The union you support is imploding in on itself and you think it's funny.

[The Green Goblin]

One of the worst things I have ever heard from a politician. "another Spanish speaking country" was an unbelievable comment. Just unbelievable. Still, it's good to see that some folk on here don't have a problem with it. Makes you proud. :aok:

[makaveli1875]

Aye, because rattling your sabre after navigating yourself into a corner is a sane thing to do. The union you support is imploding in on itself and you think it's funny.

i actually dont support the union , nor do i support independence at the moment. Id just rather stay in the union for now amid all the uncertainty, allow things to settle down and see what comes of the Brexit negotiations - that to me is the sane thing to do.
Back on topic , do you guys seriously think that a military war with spain is imminent ?

[northstandhibby]

Aye, because rattling your sabre after navigating yourself into a corner is a sane thing to do. The union you support is imploding in on itself and you think it's funny.

I appreciate you support separation and nationalism however we're all still part of the ongoing UK and until then we should support the UK government if its being held to ransom over Gibraltar. Gibraltar doesn't want anything to do with being part of Spain and its only right the UK states its support of Gibraltar at this time.

glory glory

[The Green Goblin]

I appreciate you support separation and nationalism however we're all still part of the ongoing UK and until then we should support the UK government if its being held to ransom over Gibraltar. Gibraltar doesn't want anything to do with being part of Spain and its only right the UK states its support of Gibraltar at this time.

glory glory

Fair enough, but surely they can do that diplomatically and not with the irresponsible pish that Michael Howard was spouting earlier?

[johnbc70]

Back on topic , do you guys seriously think that a military war with spain is imminent ?

Surely nobody does?

[northstandhibby]

Fair enough, but surely they can do that diplomatically and not with the irresponsible pish that Michael Howard was spouting earlier?

I would always agree 100% with diplomacy, tact and peaceful rhetoric until there was nothing else for it but to raise the stakes. I didn't read what Howard was saying so will believe you that he was talking irresponsible pish as a number of tories are prone to doing.

glory glory

[snooky]

Wonderin' which side to fight for. :hmmm:

[lucky]

I appreciate you support separation and nationalism however we're all still part of the ongoing UK and until then we should support the UK government if its being held to ransom over Gibraltar. Gibraltar doesn't want anything to do with being part of Spain and its only right the UK states its support of Gibraltar at this time.

glory glory

Regardless off anyone's views on independence only a deranged person would support war over an issue like this. It's not as if Spain is threatening to invade Gibraltar. The rhetoric coming out over Brexit and Indy 2 is nuts.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Wonderin' which side to fight for. :hmmm:

Spanish, biased because I'm currently in Fuerteventura 😁

[CropleyWasGod]

I appreciate you support separation and nationalism however we're all still part of the ongoing UK and until then we should support the UK government if its being held to ransom over Gibraltar. Gibraltar doesn't want anything to do with being part of Spain and its only right the UK states its support of Gibraltar at this time.

glory glory
Does that mean that the UK Government should support the Gilbratarians in their almost unanimous desire to remain in the EU?

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[northstandhibby]

Does that mean that the UK Government should support the Gilbratarians in their almost unanimous desire to remain in the EU?

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I would have loved to have stayed in the EU and voted to remain but it didn't happen unfortunately. Its up to the Gibraltarians to decide what they want would be my answer. They appear to want to be under UK control?

glory glory

[CropleyWasGod]

I would have loved to have stayed in the EU and voted to remain but it didn't happen unfortunately. Its up to the Gibraltarians to decide what they want would be my answer. They appear to want to be under UK control?

glory glory
Have they been asked which is more important?

That would be an interesting debate.

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[The Green Goblin]

I would always agree 100% with diplomacy, tact and peaceful rhetoric until there was nothing else for it but to raise the stakes. I didn't read what Howard was saying so will believe you that he was talking irresponsible pish as a number of tories are prone to doing.

glory glory


Speaking minutes later, Howard used a broadcast interview to ramp up the rhetoric after saying there was “no question” of Britain weakening its stance with regards to the sovereignty of one of its overseas territories.
“Thirty-five years ago this week, another woman prime minister sent a taskforce halfway across the world to defend the freedom of another small group of British people against another Spanish-speaking country, and I’m absolutely certain that our current prime minister will show the same resolve in standing by the people of Gibraltar,” Howard told Sophy Ridge on Sunday on Sky News.

[Hibrandenburg]

Regardless off anyone's views on independence only a deranged person would support war over an issue like this. It's not as if Spain is threatening to invade Gibraltar. The rhetoric coming out over Brexit and Indy 2 is nuts.

I find myself agreeing with you. The rethoric is absolutely mental and **** like this is likely to whip already frothing British Nationalism up to the next level. War is not imminent because of this but anybody with a basic knowledge of history knows that this is how wars start.

[northstandhibby]

Have they been asked which is more important?

That would be an interesting debate.

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I've always said brexit was a disastrous outcome and beyond complex so everything is up for debate it seems.

glory glory

[Hibrandenburg]

I've always said brexit was a disastrous outcome and beyond complex so everything is up for debate it seems.

glory glory

That would be great but unfortunately May seems to be of a different opinion.

[CropleyWasGod]

I've always said brexit was a disastrous outcome and beyond complex so everything is up for debate it seems.

glory glory
Here's an idea.....

Why don't they have a referendum in Gibraltar and find out what the people want?

It would be fair. 😈

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[northstandhibby]

Speaking minutes later, Howard used a broadcast interview to ramp up the rhetoric after saying there was “no question” of Britain weakening its stance with regards to the sovereignty of one of its overseas territories.
“Thirty-five years ago this week, another woman prime minister sent a taskforce halfway across the world to defend the freedom of another small group of British people against another Spanish-speaking country, and I’m absolutely certain that our current prime minister will show the same resolve in standing by the people of Gibraltar,” Howard told Sophy Ridge on Sunday on Sky News.

Certainly could and should have used a more diplomatic tactful approach absolutely. Its quite unbelievable a former PM would publicly adopt such a threatening tone in the first instance. He should be kept away from doing any more interviews.

glory glory

[Colr]

This is what happens when there's no opposition to the Government.

[ronaldo7]

This is what happens when there's no opposition to the Government.


This is what happens when the government of the "WHOLE COUNTRY", is not looking out for everyone, but the few.

To be even speaking in these terms imo is absolutely disgusting.

https://t.co/5vCVJnRBjC

[ronaldo7]

https://twitter.com/gavmacn/status/848537444857372672

18314

[allmodcons]

i actually dont support the union , nor do i support independence at the moment. Id just rather stay in the union for now amid all the uncertainty, allow things to settle down and see what comes of the Brexit negotiations - that to me is the sane thing to do.
Back on topic , do you guys seriously think that a military war with spain is imminent ?


Surely nobody does?

I don't think anybody is suggesting we're about to go to war with Spain but the rhetoric used by Howard is ****ing disgraceful.

To deflect like you have and for neither of you two to condemn him for this is embarrassing.

[northstandhibby]

That would be great but unfortunately May seems to be of a different opinion.

I've posted on here before stating brexit unleashed a set of uniquely damaging circumstances to not only Scotland but also to the UK that there were grounds for revisiting Scotland's relationship with the UK by way of an indy ref 2. I think the time will come eventually for an indy ref 2 that the Scots Nationalists would win quite emphatically.

glory glory

[The Green Goblin]

I don't think anybody is suggesting we're about to go to war with Spain but the rhetoric used by Howard is ****ing disgraceful.

To deflect like you have and for neither of you two to condemn him for this is embarrassing.

I agree.

[ronaldo7]

We've just launched an attack on Spain with our most up to date aircraft.

18315

[northstandhibby]

This is what happens when there's no opposition to the Government.

Sensibly put.

We need a strong Labour party and while Kezia does a fine job in Edinburgh Jeremy has been a less than compelling overall leader and frankly has to go very soon. I would like to see either David Milliband or Ed Balls on the comeback trail or anyone with a bit charisma and who can command a centrist position while working with the unions which worked very well indeed for Blair.

glory glory

[Moulin Yarns]

i actually dont support the union , nor do i support independence at the moment. Id just rather stay in the union for now amid all the uncertainty, allow things to settle down and see what comes of the Brexit negotiations - that to me is the sane thing to do.
Back on topic , do you guys seriously think that a military war with spain is imminent ?

Naw. They don't have neuks!!

[CropleyWasGod]

Naw. They don't have neuks!!

Fife has one.

[Smartie]

Have they been asked which is more important?

That would be an interesting debate.

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Now is not the time.

[CropleyWasGod]

Now is not the time.

Yeah, I noticed that I got no answer :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

Here's an idea.....

Why don't they have a referendum in Gibraltar and find out what the people want?

It would be fair. 😈

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The people of Gibraltar voted clearly in the referendum in 2002, nothing has changed since then. :rolleyes:

[northstandhibby]

Yeah, I noticed that I got no answer :greengrin

You should have already determined from my postings I'm generally for fairness and truth and should have concluded what my answer would be without my having to post a reply that they should indeed be asked.

For the record it was I don't know if they've been asked previously although I think they were in the recent past and decided to stick with the UK although could be wrong.

:greengrin

glory glory

[northstandhibby]

The people of Gibraltar voted clearly in the referendum in 2002, nothing has changed since then. :rolleyes:

Thanks for clarifying.

glory glory

[CropleyWasGod]

You should have already determined from my postings I'm generally for fairness and truth and should have concluded what my answer would be without my having to post a reply that they should indeed be asked.

For the record it was I don't know if they've been asked previously although I think they were in the recent past and decided to stick with the UK although could be wrong.

:greengrin

glory glory
You do know that my post was in jest, in response to the other (in jest) post, yeah?
[emoji13]

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[Hibrandenburg]

Thanks for clarifying.

glory glory

I couldn't find a Theresa May smiley so I improvised with the rolleyes one. :wink:

[northstandhibby]

You do know that my post was in jest, in response to the other (in jest) post, yeah?
[emoji13]

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Fair dos. I don't generally do much jesting so apologies for not cottoning on.

glory glory

[northstandhibby]

I couldn't find a Theresa May smiley so I improvised with the rolleyes one. :wink:

This is all going over the top of my head now so fair dos.

glory glory

[CropleyWasGod]

Fair dos. I don't generally do much jesting so apologies for not cottoning on.

glory glory
No worries. Now is not the time for jesting.

[emoji48]

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[northstandhibby]

No worries. Now is not the time for jesting.

[emoji48]

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I assume because I'm not a nationalist its apparently time to dissuade me from posting my opinions on here? Its not an appealing position for most if that is the case?

glory glory

[CropleyWasGod]

I assume because I'm not a nationalist its apparently time to dissuade me from posting my opinions on here? Its not an appealing position for most if that is the case?

glory glory
It was another jest....😂

As for your question, I'm not sure what that has to do with an old ****wit banging drums, rattling sabres and singing "next year we're off to sunny Spain"





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[northstandhibby]

It was another jest....😂



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:greengrin

I'll have to get used to this jesting lark. Seriously i'm really pleased you've said that as I'd hate to think free speech would be a casualty in an independent Scotland. Diversity and tolerance as I know you're also a fan of as am I should be a yardstick of any welcoming culture.

glory glory

[Hibrandenburg]

:greengrin

I'll have to get used to this jesting lark. Seriously i'm really pleased you've said that as I'd hate to think free speech would be a casualty in an independent Scotland. Diversity and tolerance as I know you're also a fan of as am I should be a yardstick of any welcoming culture.

glory glory

I'm absolutely baffled as to the fact that you assumed that anyone was trying to curb free speech. I'm really not having a dig, I'm just completely baffled.

[northstandhibby]

I'm absolutely baffled as to the fact that you assumed that anyone was trying to curb free speech. I'm really not having a dig, I'm just completely baffled.

Hibrandenburg you don't strike me as a person who becomes 'completely baffled' as I think you're an intelligent person with a formed opinion. You called out 'British Nationalism' as opposed to 'Scottish Nationalism' and termed 'Civic Nationalism' instead which illustrates a deliberate sensitivity to actual Nationalism which is understandable as you probably see Scottish Nationalism as a means to breaking up the UK and the horrid BNP type mentality which all of us reasoned folk are against.

I'm also not thinned skinned just used to having debate and conversation as opposed to outright jesting which is relatively unknown to me.

The free speech aspect is one of if there was to be an independent Scotland we would have to engage with all of the Scots folk including those not of a necessarily Nationalist position and address their issues without simply ignoring them. Also there are many UK based Hibernian fans who probably feel alienated by some (not necessarily yours) Scots Nationalists naked narrow agendas and I would like to state they are part of the family as much as anybody else is no matter which part of the UK they happen to come from.

glory glory

[Bishop Hibee]

As we are in NATO and so are Spain we'd have to go to war with ourselves after attacking Spain wouldn't we?

On a more serious note, Howard and his ilk are not a ranting right fringe but represent a large rump of the Tory party. These jingoistic nut jobs feel their off the leash now we're leaving the EU. All grist to the Scottish independence mill.

[northstandhibby]

As we are in NATO and so are Spain we'd have to go to war with ourselves after attacking Spain wouldn't we?

On a more serious note, Howard and his ilk are not a ranting right fringe but represent a large rump of the Tory party. These jingoistic nut jobs feel their off the leash now we're leaving the EU. All grist to the Scottish independence mill.

A very fair point of view indeed Bishop as brexiting from the EU has let loose the likes of Dracula to roam free with foaming mouth and scare ordinary folk. The EU laws and regulations which gave ordinary folk protection from the likes of Howard Dracula have been declared null and void because of brexit and allowed the tory dead to walk among us again.

glory glory

[Slavers]

I think instead of using the disgraceful comments as another reason to break up the 300 year old and most successful union on the planet, instead we should remain in the union to provide a counter voice of reason and sensibility. Instead of running away we should stay and provide stability and a calming voice of reason within the UK.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think instead of using the disgraceful comments as another reason to break up the 300 year old and most successful union on the planet, instead we should remain in the union to provide a counter voice of reason and sensibility. Instead of running away we should stay and provide stability and a calming voice of reason within the UK.

The most successful Union on the planet? You're having a laugh. Successful for who? Certainly not the people of Scotland. How can it be considered a success when despite having national resources pouring out from below the seabed around our shores for 40 years we're in debt?

[pacoluna]

I think instead of using the disgraceful comments as another reason to break up the 300 year old and most successful union on the planet, instead we should remain in the union to provide a counter voice of reason and sensibility. Instead of running away we should stay and provide stability and a calming voice of reason within the UK.

Stockholm syndrome

[CropleyWasGod]

Stockholm syndrome
****ing swedes. Coming over here, furnishing our houses.....

We'll have them an aw.

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[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Not defending Howard - what he said was ridiculous.

But just to be the contrary voice in this Scottish Nationalist echo-chamber...

The Govt havent said this, it was a peer, and not former PM as someone earlier said.

I know peers are also in govt, but i dont think Howard is - although i stand to.be corrected on that.

I also find it slightly odd that people are slamming the UK govt for this, despite.it not being them that said it, but not condemning the EU for bringing this.into the debate.

Anyway, if this whole process leadd to us, and Gib leaving the UK i would watch out if i were Spain - im sure England will become Catalunya's biggest supporter in its quest for self determination!!

In all seriousness, i find it all quite depressing that this has happened, but i think Spain / EU have a lot to answer for for conflating the two issues.

[Slavers]

Stockholm syndrome

C'mon now that's just nonsense.

[Moulin Yarns]

C'mon now that's just norsense.

FTFY :wink:

[Slavers]

The most successful Union on the planet? You're having a laugh. Successful for who? Certainly not the people of Scotland. How can it be considered a success when despite having national resources pouring out from below the seabed around our shores for 40 years we're in debt?

I think you are well aware the UK has been a success in it's time, you just don't like that it has been so successful.

[Hibrandenburg]

Not defending Howard - what he said was ridiculous.

But just to be the contrary voice in this Scottish Nationalist echo-chamber...

The Govt havent said this, it was a peer, and not former PM as someone earlier said.

I know peers are also in govt, but i dont think Howard is - although i stand to.be corrected on that.

I also find it slightly odd that people are slamming the UK govt for this, despite.it not being them that said it, but not condemning the EU for bringing this.into the debate.

Anyway, if this whole process leadd to us, and Gib leaving the UK i would watch out if i were Spain - im sure England will become Catalunya's biggest supporter in its quest for self determination!!

In all seriousness, i find it all quite depressing that this has happened, but i think Spain / EU have a lot to answer for for conflating the two issues.

All the EU said is that all deals made in the EU regarding Gibraltar will be null and void after brexit. That is the logical consequence of the UK leaving the EU and what the brexiters claim to want. You can't leave the club but still hang on to the things you want.

[CropleyWasGod]

I think you are well aware the UK has been a success in it's time, you just don't like that it has been so successful.

I'd suggest that the US has been more successful than the UK.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think you are well aware the UK has been a success in it's time, you just don't like that it has been so successful.

I suppose if you are of the mindset that conquering foreign nations and systematically stripping them of their assets and resources is tantamount to success, then I suppose you're right.

[Slavers]

I suppose if you are of the mindset that conquering foreign nations and systematically stripping them of their assets and resources is tantamount to success, then I suppose you're right.

Hmmm I was thinking along the lines of the NHS, Social Care and Prosperity.

[Moulin Yarns]

Hmmm I was thinking along the lines of the NHS, Social Care and Prosperity.

Soon knock that on the head.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8d5_WnWAAQPPPA.jpg:large

[Hibrandenburg]

Hmmm I was thinking along the lines of the NHS, Social Care and Prosperity.

LOL, we're about bottom of the league in Europe in almost all of them. Not because of Europe but because of our own mismanagement and delusion that we're still some kind of super power. NHS is crumbling, cuts in social care at record high and our currency a fraction of its 2007 value.

[snooky]

C'mon now that's just nonsense.

Case proven? :wink:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

All the EU said is that all deals made in the EU regarding Gibraltar will be null and void after brexit. That is the logical consequence of the UK leaving the EU and what the brexiters claim to want. You can't leave the club but still hang on to the things you want.

I thought it said that any new deal agreed would not apply to Gib unless Spain agreed?

Thats quite different.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Soon knock that on the head.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8d5_WnWAAQPPPA.jpg:large

MPs pay is nothing to do with the tory party, it is set independently.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

LOL, we're about bottom of the league in Europe in almost all of them. Not because of Europe but because of our own mismanagement and delusion that we're still some kind of super power. NHS is crumbling, cuts in social care at record high and our currency a fraction of its 2007 value.

Careful Hibrandenburg, i got a lot of stick on the indyref2 thred for darinf to suggest that the NHS isnt amazing, or that public services werent being run brilliantly.

The SNP guys will be on you in minute...

[Moulin Yarns]

MPs pay is nothing to do with the tory party, it is set independently.

My post is in response to this post, and the MP's pay rise is indicative of everything wrong with this(Dis)united Kingdom


Hmmm I was thinking along the lines of the NHS, Social Care and Prosperity.

[Moulin Yarns]

Careful Hibrandenburg, i got a lot of stick on the indyref2 thred for darinf to suggest that the NHS isnt amazing, or that public services werent being run brilliantly.

The SNP guys will be on you in minute...


I doubt it, as his analysis is on the NHS in general, not NHS Scotland. At least that's what I took from the post

[Slavers]

Case proven? :wink:

What case has been proven?

[Hibrandenburg]

Careful Hibrandenburg, i got a lot of stick on the indyref2 thred for darinf to suggest that the NHS isnt amazing, or that public services werent being run brilliantly.

The SNP guys will be on you in minute...

Whilst the Scottish NHS seems to be riding the current wave of cuts better than its English counterpart, it doesn't mean it can't be improved in an independent Scotland. Even though health is devolved the truth is that ultimately the NHS purse strings are still held in Westminster.

[allmodcons]

I think you are well aware the UK has been a success in it's time, you just don't like that it has been so successful.

Is this how you measure success.

http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Whilst the Scottish NHS seems to be riding the current wave of cuts better than its English counterpart, it doesn't mean it can't be improved in an independent Scotland. Even though health is devolved the truth is that ultimately the NHS purse strings are still held in Westminster.

Well no, the NHSScotland purse strings are not held in Westminster, they have been devolved since 1999.

Of course indy could lead to improvement, just as it could lead to them getting worse. Indy, im itself, would have no affect on the NHS per se.

The rest of your post is of course debateable, but weve had that discussion on another thread.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Is this how you measure success.

http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/

So is debt a bad thing?

But 'tory cuts' are also a bad thing?

Im confused...

[Hibrandenburg]

Well no, the NHSScotland purse strings are not held in Westminster, they have been devolved since 1999.

Of course indy could lead to improvement, just as it could lead to them getting worse. Indy, im itself, would have no affect on the NHS per se.

The rest of your post is of course debateable, but weve had that discussion on another thread.

Of course Westminster really hold the purse strings. Until we have total control on how we raise or reduce taxation and what we do with the funds we raise, we will always be dependent on the handout we receive from Westminster. It's not rocket science.

[allmodcons]

Well no, the NHSScotland purse strings are not held in Westminster, they have been devolved since 1999.

Of course indy could lead to improvement, just as it could lead to them getting worse. Indy, im itself, would have no affect on the NHS per se.

The rest of your post is of course debateable, but weve had that discussion on another thread.

The NHS purse strings are held at Westminster. This is where all the big Macro Economic decisions are made.

Sure, we get a (reducing) fixed budget to spend on devolved issues but there is no doubt as to who holds the purse strings.

[The Green Goblin]

I think instead of using the disgraceful comments as another reason to break up the 300 year old and most successful union on the planet, instead we should remain in the union to provide a counter voice of reason and sensibility. Instead of running away we should stay and provide stability and a calming voice of reason within the UK.

A self-sacrifing approach that unhelpfully prolongs many an unhappy or destructive relationship.

[allmodcons]

So is debt a bad thing?

But 'tory cuts' are also a bad thing?

Im confused...

You're confused because your priorities are completely different to mine.

Judging by the vast majority of your posts, you appear to believe that 'Charity Begins at Home'.

Can you not see that, in an effort to reduce the deficit (not National Debt), that the Conservatives have a history of taking it out on those least able to pay.

If you'd like to answer the question, does the current UK level of debt reflect 300 years of a successful Union.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You're confused because your priorities are completely different to mine.

Judging by the vast majority of your posts, you are appear to believe that 'Charity Begins at Home'.

Can you not see that, in an effort to reduce the deficit (not National Debt), that the Conservatives have a history of taking it out on those least able to pay.

If you'd like to answer the question, does the current UK level of debt reflect 300 years of a successful Union.

So which is it then?

I would say the current debt reflects successive bad policy decisions. It is moot whether similar, better or worse policy decisions would have been taken in indy Scotland.

I would say being part of a very successful country indicates the union has been pretty successful.

But that of course doesnt preclude or confirm how successful we could have been, or will be in an indy scotland, amd i fully accept that our (either scotlands or the UKs depending on your perspective) was squandered.

[Hibrandenburg]

So which is it then?

I would say the current debt reflects successive bad policy decisions. It is moot whether similar, better or worse policy decisions would have been taken in indy Scotland.

I would say being part of a very successful country indicates the union has been pretty successful.

But that of course doesnt preclude or confirm how successful we could have been, or will be in an indy scotland, amd i fully accept that our (either scotlands or the UKs depending on your perspective) was squandered.

Almost every other European country has a better quality of life than the UK but we're coincidently not part of our fantastic union, how on earth did they manage that without the benefit of the union?

[allmodcons]

So which is it then?

I would say the current debt reflects successive bad policy decisions. It is moot whether similar, better or worse policy decisions would have been taken in indy Scotland.

I would say being part of a very successful country indicates the union has been pretty successful.

But that of course doesnt preclude or confirm how successful we could have been, or will be in an indy scotland.

I'm glad you agree we've been badly governed, maybe now we're getting somewhere.

For what it's worth, IMO you reduce deficit and debt by hitting those with the broadest shoulders, not by picking on the weakest in our society.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Almost every other European country has a better quality of life than the UK but we're coincidently not part of our fantastic union, how on earth did they manage that without the benefit of the union?

This is a bit of a pointless debate. The union is 300 years old. It has been successful enough to see Scotland emerge from middle ages, host and contribute hugely to rhe european enlightenment, end (or at least diminish greatly) hundreds of years of conflict, amd saw scotland benefit hugely as part of the greatest empire the world ever saw.

So yes, the Union has been a big success for Scotland.

Whether that means it is worth persevering with, well that i ls another debate. It also tells us nothing about what scotland would have done without the Union. We cant know.

Well partly europe has achieved that because of the USA guaranteeing and paying for our secirity for 70 years. Partly due to the EU. Surely people can recognise that there is nuance, amd that both Unions have / had good and bad points. And both have had referenda in the UK in the last 3 years.

I highly doubt the quality of life point, but that is also highly subjective. And of course, many habe gained as a result of net contributors such as the UK effectively suppprting them via the EU.

I dont know if scotland will be better or worse in the future, and which unions we should or should not be in.

But this whole 'UK bad, EU good' or 'UK bad, Scotland good' stuff is reductive, clearly bollox and serves nobody well.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I'm glad you agree we've been badly governed, maybe now we're getting somewhere.

For what it's worth, IMO you reduce deficit and debt by hitting those with the broadest shoulders, not by picking on the weakest in our society.

Of course we have. And Scotland played its part in that.

Great, lets live in a country where the state 'hits' people, sounds delightful.

We are clearly not going to agree, but i do wonder how much tax, apllied to how many people, would the state have to hit people with to plug a deficit in the tens of billions? Do you know?

[allmodcons]

Of course we have. And Scotland played its part in that.

Great, lets live in a country where the state 'hits' people, sounds delightful.

We are clearly not going to agree, but i do wonder how much tax, apllied to how many people, would the state have to hit people with to plug a deficit in the tens of billions? Do you know?

The state is already hitting people. The poorest and weakest in our society.

Like you, I make a good living but your 'I'm Alright Jack' attitude does suggest that you and I are not going to agree on anything anytime soon.

At the risk of sounding patronising, sometimes you should look little further than your own front door.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The state is already hitting people. The poorest and weakest in our society.

Like you, I make a good living but your 'I'm Alright Jack' attitude does suggest that you and I are not going to agree on anything anytime soon.

At the risk of sounding patronising, sometimes you should look little further than your own front door.

So do you not have that answer then? Do you not then think that makes the policy proposition a little flimsy.

I take your point on looking beyond my front door, but that doesn't mean i shpuld look at somebody with a nicer house, amd demand i get some of that because its unfair.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Of course Westminster really hold the purse strings. Until we have total control on how we raise or reduce taxation and what we do with the funds we raise, we will always be dependent on the handout we receive from Westminster. It's not rocket science.

Westminster holds macro economic powers, but they do not hold fhe purse strings of NHS Scotland as you well know. So no, not rocket science, just not true.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The NHS purse strings are held at Westminster. This is where all the big Macro Economic decisions are made.

Sure, we get a (reducing) fixed budget to spend on devolved issues but there is no doubt as to who holds the purse strings.

Youre right, there is no dount that the NHS purse strings are held in Edinburgh.

[allmodcons]

So do you not have that answer then?

Quality response!

Maybe your beloved Conservative Government could start by making a serious attempt to take back some of the £40 billion that's lost every year because of tax evasion by the very well off.

Maybe they could spend less money on defence, in particular, a leased nuclear defence system that costs billions and IMO serves little or no purpose against the security threats our country faces.

I don't have all the answers but one thing I know for sure is that, in times of austerity, this Conservative Government has been happy to hammer the weakest in our society whilst handing out tax cuts to people (like you and me) who, quite simply, do not need them.

If that's the kind of society you want then that's your prerogative but it's not for me.

[allmodcons]

So do you not have that answer then? Do you not then think that makes the policy proposition a little flimsy.

I take your point on looking beyond my front door, but that doesn't mean i shpuld look at somebody with a nicer house, amd demand i get some of that because its unfair.

Last post from me today (too busy).

You and I are so far apart it's almost funny.

You should look beyond your front door at the family who doesn't have a house and think what could I do to make things fairer.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Last post from me today (too busy).

You and I are so far apart it's almost funny.

You should look beyond your front at the family who doesn't have a house and think what could I do make things fairer.

Lets just agree to disagree mate!

[Just Alf]

Westminster holds macro economic powers, but they do not hold fhe purse strings of NHS Scotland as you well know. So no, not rocket science, just not true.
Actually that's not right...

"Much of Scotland's budget for public services is funded by a "block grant"

Since 1998 the Scottish government has had full control over how much of its overall budget for public services it spends on the NHS in Scotland. What it can't currently control, however, is the size of this overall budget, which depends on the level of spending on the equivalent services in England."


Edit... Actually, maybe that's what you are actually saying! Lol


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[snooky]

May Laughs Off Spain 'War' Talk.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39475127
Is oor Theresa no' a big hoot! It's great to have a PM that can laugh about a wee thing like war.
Stop it Theresa :faf::faf::faf: - oh ma sides.

[Slavers]

May Laughs Off Spain 'War' Talk.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39475127
Is oor Theresa no' a big hoot! It's great to have a PM that can laugh about a wee thing like war.
Stop it Theresa :faf::faf::faf: - oh ma sides.

She is giving the talk of war the respect is deserves by laughing at it or would you like her to give these comments made be a house of lords peer more credibility?

[The Green Goblin]

I'm surprised she had the time to mention it at all, what with the cosy visit to Saudi Arabia and cutting bereavement benefits. Still, at least she's getting on with the day job...

[Jonnyboy]

Not defending Howard - what he said was ridiculous.

But just to be the contrary voice in this Scottish Nationalist echo-chamber...

The Govt havent said this, it was a peer, and not former PM as someone earlier said.

I know peers are also in govt, but i dont think Howard is - although i stand to.be corrected on that.

I also find it slightly odd that people are slamming the UK govt for this, despite.it not being them that said it, but not condemning the EU for bringing this.into the debate.

Anyway, if this whole process leadd to us, and Gib leaving the UK i would watch out if i were Spain - im sure England will become Catalunya's biggest supporter in its quest for self determination!!

In all seriousness, i find it all quite depressing that this has happened, but i think Spain / EU have a lot to answer for for conflating the two issues.

True, but he's still considered to be a leading figure in the Tory party and as such, the PM should have slapped his remarks down rather than laughing at them when asked about it by the press

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

True, but he's still considered to be a leading figure in the Tory party and as such, the PM should have slapped his remarks down rather than laughing at them when asked about it by the press

Yeah i agree she should have slapped him down, very publically.

I wasn't trying to defend him, just calling out some of the disinformation that people use.

[Pretty Boy]

It's ok. Theresa May is dealing with the big issues such as what Cadburys call their annual egg hunt.

[steakbake]

It's ok. Theresa May is dealing with the big issues such as what Cadburys call their annual egg hunt.

...after stepping off the plane from our new apparent business partners, the Saudis. Lots of lovely weapons to sell them to continue the murder of Yemen and subjugation of their people.

[The Green Goblin]

...after stepping off the plane from our new apparent business partners, the Saudis. Lots of lovely weapons to sell them to continue the murder of Yemen and subjugation of their people.

Trump, Erdogan and the Saudis. Who needs the EU when we can deal with these guys? :aok: Makes me so proud.

[wpj]

I see the sun have responded with a measured diplomatic response to Spain, salivating at the thought of Britain ruling the waves again

[CropleyWasGod]

I see the sun have responded with a measured diplomatic response to Spain, salivating at the thought of Britain ruling the waves again

...whilst, on the same page, advertising cheap Holidays in the Sun.....in Spain. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

I have friends who moved to Spain last month to live permanently, I'll need to ask which side they will be on. Both have military backgrounds so I think I know the answer :wink:

They are living in a gated community with golf course and Irish Pub!!!

[ronaldo7]

I have friends who moved to Spain last month to live permanently, I'll need to ask which side they will be on. Both have military backgrounds so I think I know the answer :wink:

They are living in a gated community with golf course and Irish Pub!!!

Did they take their yacht?:greengrin

https://t.co/acxWeieEqM

[Moulin Yarns]

Did they take their yacht?:greengrin

https://t.co/acxWeieEqM

OH NO!! It's started. What is the term, Gunboat Diplomacy ?? :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

OH NO!! It's started. What is the term, Gunboat Diplomacy ?? :greengrin

I always thought Nato member countries were welcome in other Nato countries waters too.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I always thought Nato member countries were welcome in other Nato countries waters too.

Juat ask Greece and Turkey!!

[ronaldo7]

Juat ask Greece and Turkey!!

I wish .net would provide a tongue in cheek smiley.:greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

I wish .net would provide a tongue in cheek smiley.:greengrin
We've got a submarine one. [emoji48]

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[ronaldo7]

We've got a submarine one. [emoji48]

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

Ah, Vladimir, those were the days.:greengrin

[heretoday]

We shall fight them on the beaches.....

[snooky]

We shall fight them on the beaches.....

I like the cut of your Gib. :wink: