Labour federalism

[JeMeSouviens]

I guess it's not especially surprising that nobody has raised Scottish Labour's "federalism" plan on here and that's probably a good indicator of the weight attached to it by the Scottish public but just to check I'm not getting this wrong, they *really* are proposing to go into a new referendum campaign with a "plan" which is:

- "federalism" in a country that supposedly already has the "nearest thing possible to federalism".
- to have a constitutional convention across the UK where the only currently identified participant is Scottish Labour
- Scottish Labour policy but not UK Labour policy
- relies on Labour ever being in power in the UK again to even get started
- presumably consists of devolving powers they fought tooth and nail to stop being devolved in the Smith process
- consists of no as yet concrete identified powers, just example suggestions
- relies on England being broken up into regions nobody in England wants

:confused:

To call this half-arsed seems unbelievably generous.

[Geo_1875]

Seems like a cost saving exercise. They can just change the date on all the bumf they published for the last referendum.

[ACLeith]

- relies on England being broken up into regions nobody in England wants

:confused:

To call this half-arsed seems unbelievably generous.

And therefore consider Scotland to be the equivalent of an English region and not the country we are supposedly equal partners with. Anything to run us down

[steakbake]

Labour have lost their way. The federalism plan is nonsense. As you say.

I think their only way back is to be open to independence or make it a free vote.

[Colr]

And therefore consider Scotland to be the equivalent of an English region and not the country we are supposedly equal partners with. Anything to run us down

There's no appetite in England for regional assemblies and their regions do ot see themselves as distinct in the way Scotland, Wales and Ireland do.

I think an English parliament would be welcome but Labour wouldn't have much chance of controlling that at the moment - especially as they are relying on the SNP to provide opposition to the government in the UK parliament, they would be stuffed on current form.

[ronaldo7]

I guess it's not especially surprising that nobody has raised Scottish Labour's "federalism" plan on here and that's probably a good indicator of the weight attached to it by the Scottish public but just to check I'm not getting this wrong, they *really* are proposing to go into a new referendum campaign with a "plan" which is:

- "federalism" in a country that supposedly already has the "nearest thing possible to federalism".
- to have a constitutional convention across the UK where the only currently identified participant is Scottish Labour
- Scottish Labour policy but not UK Labour policy
- relies on Labour ever being in power in the UK again to even get started
- presumably consists of devolving powers they fought tooth and nail to stop being devolved in the Smith process
- consists of no as yet concrete identified powers, just example suggestions
- relies on England being broken up into regions nobody in England wants

:confused:

To call this half-arsed seems unbelievably generous.

If Labour had taken the Smith commission seriously, we might have had "as near to Federalism as was possible". Instead they blocked and stymied the process. That's probably why most folk don't believe a word they say these days.

18234

[Just Alf]

There's no appetite in England for regional assemblies and their regions do ot see themselves as distinct in the way Scotland, Wales and Ireland do.

I think an English parliament would be welcome but Labour wouldn't have much chance of controlling that at the moment - especially as they are relying on the SNP to provide opposition to the government in the UK parliament, they would be stuffed on current form.

I've always thought an English Parliament would have been a good idea, with a "UK" congress (not sure the best word?) meeting somewhere new like Birmingham for example with representation from the 4 countries and probably even a presence from Gibraltar/Channel Islands.

If that was up and running right now then the clamour for independence would be nowhere like it's been these past few years, there would probably even be room for some sort of separate brexit deals between the 4 countries and the EU.

[ACLeith]

I've always thought an English Parliament would have been a good idea, with a "UK" congress (not sure the best word?) meeting somewhere new like Birmingham for example with representation from the 4 countries and probably even a presence from Gibraltar/Channel Islands.

If that was up and running right now then the clamour for independence would be nowhere like it's been these past few years, there would probably even be room for some sort of separate brexit deals between the 4 countries and the EU.

The challenge would be getting the English parliament to accept an equal status in the federal / congress and not the dominant role they have at WM. But if that could be achieved then I believe it would be the best solution for all parts of the UK.

But that ship has sailed away I fear due to the Libs discarding all their principles and Labour being stuck with the same old record

[Mr Grieves]

Top story on the BBC website today...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39309133

"That's why Labour's plan for a people's constitutional convention and a federal UK will transform where political and economic power will lie in our country."

When do they hope to execute this plan? 2050? 2100?

[lucky]

If Labour had taken the Smith commission seriously, we might have had "as near to Federalism as was possible". Instead they blocked and stymied the process. That's probably why most folk don't believe a word they say these days.

18234

Usual crap from you on Labour but again with no proof.

As for the plans that Scottish Labour have proposed, its to set up a constitutional convention to look at a federal UK. There are no firm plans yet on what a federal UK will look like. Just a proposal to discuss it. But I have serious doubts over this. No political party in NI is calling for it and in Wales it's only the Lib Dems that support federalism. We also have a bigger problem with England as there is little demand for devolving power from Westminster. For me it just another political party wanting to talk about the constitution rather than policies.

[The Harp Awakes]

There was a time I would vote Labour without exception, but I would only vote for them now within an independent Scotland.

As a party they have lost the plot, and seem incapable of sorting out their mess. Looking at the decades ahead, the federal option is probably the only way they will retain any power in England, as they are finished in Westminster, perhaps for ever. So in that respect, I can understand why they are trying to push this. The problem is comparing Scotland with a region of England, is just perpetuating the belief of many Scots that they are in bed with the Tories.

Labour supporters in Scotland voting No at the next indyref will do so, knowing that if a No vote is carried, they will be resigning themselves to being ruled by a right-wing Tory Government in Westminster decades to come. I would have thought that in their eyes nothing could be worse.

[ronaldo7]

Usual crap from you on Labour but again with no proof.

As for the plans that Scottish Labour have proposed, its to set up a constitutional convention to look at a federal UK. There are no firm plans yet on what a federal UK will look like. Just a proposal to discuss it. But I have serious doubts over this. No political party in NI is calling for it and in Wales it's only the Lib Dems that support federalism. We also have a bigger problem with England as there is little demand for devolving power from Westminster. For me it just another political party wanting to talk about the constitution rather than policies.


You had your chance and blew it.

This is what your party said should be reserved at the time.


Financial and economic matters - Including monetary policy, the currency, regulation, debt management, and EMPLOYMENT LAW. Without these we can't have a single economy.

Foreign affairs (including International development) and defence, both of which are central to what defines a nation.

The Core of the Welfare state.

The Constitution

Immigration

Drugs, drug trafficking and related laws

Betting, Gaming and Lotteries

Broadcasting

The civil service

Abortion and analogous issues


You really should own what your party does. It's no good coming on here a couple of years later trying to re-write history. Imagine a Labour party fighting to keep Employment law with the Tories. Beggars belief, but it happened.

I thought you told us that Near Federalism or Home rule was delivered last time.

As for proof, I actually spoke to one of the people on the commission, she gave a presentation to our branch regarding what went down. Now I've not got any pictorial proof of that, so you'll just have to take that as face value or not...your choice.

Great line from Angus Robertson on Breakfast this morning. "Labour can't deliver a pizza, let alone a federal Britian".:greengrin

[snooky]

I see Gordon the Dinosaur is sticking his head above the parapet again. FFS, just stay in your hole and don't ever come out again.

[Mr Grieves]

I see Gordon the Dinosaur is sticking his head above the parapet again. FFS, just stay in your hole and don't ever come out again.

The man who had the power to make these changes when he was PM... he's not even an elected politician now.

[snooky]

The man who had the power to make these changes when he was PM... he's not even an elected politician now.

Walloper.:agree:

[ronaldo7]

I see Gordon the Dinosaur is sticking his head above the parapet again. FFS, just stay in your hole and don't ever come out again.

If Broony had bothered to read the Scottish Government paper on Brexit "Scotlands place in Europe", he'd have found all the powers he now offers to be inside the front covers. It's been clearly rebuffed from the UK Gov.

Game over Gordon, away back to making speeches for money.

Pete Wishart catches the mood...Brownhogday.:greengrin

[lucky]

You had your chance and blew it.

This is what your party said should be reserved at the time.


Financial and economic matters - Including monetary policy, the currency, regulation, debt management, and EMPLOYMENT LAW. Without these we can't have a single economy.

Foreign affairs (including International development) and defence, both of which are central to what defines a nation.

The Core of the Welfare state.

The Constitution

Immigration

Drugs, drug trafficking and related laws

Betting, Gaming and Lotteries

Broadcasting

The civil service

Abortion and analogous issues


You really should own what your party does. It's no good coming on here a couple of years later trying to re-write history. Imagine a Labour party fighting to keep Employment law with the Tories. Beggars belief, but it happened.

I thought you told us that Near Federalism or Home rule was delivered last time.

As for proof, I actually spoke to one of the people on the commission, she gave a presentation to our branch regarding what went down. Now I've not got any pictorial proof of that, so you'll just have to take that as face value or not...your choice.

Great line from Angus Robertson on Breakfast this morning. "Labour can't deliver a pizza, let alone a federal Britian".:greengrin

Labour policy at the time was against devolving more tax powers they believed that they would win power and deliver for the whole of the U.K. The Smith commission was agreed with all parties. As for sound bites from a politician who needs to try and get Labour voters to vote for independence he really needs to wake up. For Yes to win you need to get No voters to change sides not try and take the piss.

Enjoy your rally in Aberdeen I'm off to watch the Hibees

[ronaldo7]

Labour policy at the time was against devolving more tax powers they believed that they would win power and deliver for the whole of the U.K. The Smith commission was agreed with all parties. As for sound bites from a politician who needs to try and get Labour voters to vote for independence he really needs to wake up. For Yes to win you need to get No voters to change sides not try and take the piss.

Enjoy your rally in Aberdeen I'm off to watch the Hibees

Employment law, just let that sink in for a moment. They supported the Tories and left Employment law with them.

#Brownhogday #DejaVow

No conference for me today, I'm off to see the Hibees.

[lucky]

Employment law, just let that sink in for a moment. They supported the Tories and left Employment law with them.

#Brownhogday #DejaVow

No conference for me today, I'm off to see the Hibees.

22/01/97: Salmond: "I would not trust Labour to deliver a pizza let alone a Scottish Parliament." Tired old line from a party of grievance.

[ACLeith]

I see Gordon the Dinosaur is sticking his head above the parapet again. FFS, just stay in your hole and don't ever come out again.

2014 - he was a back-bench MP who had no official authority to invent the Vow and who had no power to implement it afterwards. Just panic talk.

2017 - not even a back-bench MP

But at least he supports his local football team, stick to that, they need all the help they can get just now!

[ronaldo7]

22/01/97: Salmond: "I would not trust Labour to deliver a pizza let alone a Scottish Parliament." Tired old line from a party IN POWER.

Fixed that for you.

Can you tell me one thing that broon can deliver as a resident of Fife, because he never bothered with federalism as PM.

[northstandhibby]

If Broony had bothered to read the Scottish Government paper on Brexit "Scotlands place in Europe", he'd have found all the powers he now offers to be inside the front covers. It's been clearly rebuffed from the UK Gov.

Game over Gordon, away back to making speeches for money.

Pete Wishart catches the mood...Brownhogday.:greengrin

Pete who?

I heard Gordon Brown today speaking on the third way. i had forgotten how commanding an orator he is and he came across very well. Kezia would do well to have him on board on independence issues. Its about time Labour awoke.

glory glory

[Glory Lurker]

What Gordon's Brown thinks about how things should be is as relevant as what John Major thinks.

What really gets me is that the media give him airtime, but don't scrutinise him. Then again, he's yesterday's man trying to sell politically-obsolete ideas so it's actually irrelevant, really.

[northstandhibby]

What Gordon's Brown thinks about how things should be is as relevant as what John Major thinks.

What really gets me is that the media give him airtime, but don't scrutinise him. Then again, he's yesterday's man trying to sell politically-obsolete ideas so it's actually irrelevant, really.

I seem to remember a defeated vote on independence in 2014?

:greengrin

glory glory

[Glory Lurker]

I seem to remember a defeated vote on independence in 2014?

:greengrin

glory glory

Not my point. A federal Britain? Just making it up as he goes along.

[northstandhibby]

Not my point. A federal Britain? Just making it up as he goes along.

When did politicians ever give us cause to believe they tell the general public like us the truth? He sounded convincing though and sometimes that is all that matters to the wider population who worry about stability and the economy. Its worrying times just now across the world with Putin and that animal in North Korea etc etc and the public like to be reassured. Brown sounds commanding and a voice of authority so its only natural he'll be looked upon as a person of substance which he is.

glory glory

[lucky]

Fixed that for you.

Can you tell me one thing that broon can deliver as a resident of Fife, because he never bothered with federalism as PM.

Why not fix your own mega funny post NOT that you posted earlier proclaiming how funny Angus Robertson comment was this morning. Shame it was the same regurgitate rubbish we'd heard from Salmond 10 years ago

[Glory Lurker]

When did politicians ever give us cause to believe they tell the general public like us the truth? He sounded convincing though and sometimes that is all that matters to the wider population who worry about stability and the economy. Its worrying times just now across the world with Putin and that animal in North Korea etc etc and the public like to be reassured. Brown sounds commanding and a voice of authority so its only natural he'll be looked upon as a person of substance which he is.

glory glory

So, he's making it up as he goes along, but because he has a nice voice it's ok? And he isn't a person of substance. He has as much influence as you and me. He didn't seem to give a monkey's about all this when he actually had power.

[northstandhibby]

So, he's making it up as he goes along, but because he has a nice voice it's ok? And he isn't a person of substance. He has as much influence as you and me. He didn't seem to give a monkey's about all this when he actually had power.

What power does Ms Sturgeon have? Can't even call an independence vote without being allowed to by the bosses at Westminster. Like it or not Gordon Brown resonates with the ordinary public.

glory glory

[Glory Lurker]

What power does Ms Sturgeon have? Can't even call an independence vote without being allowed to by the bosses at Westminster. Like it or not Gordon Brown resonates with the ordinary public.

glory glory

Does he? Proof?

[northstandhibby]

Does he? Proof?

What proof would you like me to produce?

glory glory

[Glory Lurker]

What proof would you like me to produce?

glory glory

Maybe him being successful in winning a mandate as prime minister?

You pointed to Sturgeon being told to gtf as indicative of her lack of influence. In terms of what you and me are debating, I think that actually show why a federal uk is pie in the sky.

[northstandhibby]

Maybe him being successful in winning a mandate as prime minister?

You pointed to Sturgeon being told to gtf as indicative of her lack of influence. In terms of what you and me are debating, I think that actually show why a federal uk is pie in the sky.

I like you Glory Lurker. I know for a fact having read your posts on here your'e undoubtedly like me a lifelong hi bee. i know you've got a good sense of humor and can be witty sarcastically so if you don't mind I'm going to duck out when I think the debate turns into an argument because I happen to think you're a good sort.

I think our Nicola was forced into the position she finds herself in as the timing was clumsy and seemed a wrecking ball position.

glory glory

[Glory Lurker]

I like you Glory Lurker. I know for a fact having read your posts on here your'e undoubtedly like me a lifelong hi bee. i know you've got a good sense of humor and can be witty sarcastically so if you don't mind I'm going to duck out when I think the debate turns into an argument because I happen to think you're a good sort.

I think our Nicola was forced into the position she finds herself in as the timing was clumsy and seemed a wrecking ball position.

glory glory

Boo! You're making me feel bad, NSH! Thanks for the joust. If we all agreed it'd be, well, wrong. GGTTH.

[northstandhibby]

Boo! You're making me feel bad, NSH! Thanks for the joust. If we all agreed it'd be, well, wrong. GGTTH.

:thumbsup:

glory glory

[ronaldo7]

Why not fix your own mega funny post NOT that you posted earlier proclaiming how funny Angus Robertson comment was this morning. Shame it was the same regurgitate rubbish we'd heard from Salmond 10 years ago

Why don't you answer my question?

Give me one thing in his current position as a resident of Fife/USA that he can deliver

[lucky]

He can't deliver nothing but is contributing to the debate very much like all the rest of us but he is a respected former PM

[snooky]

He can't deliver nothing but is contributing to the debate very much like all the rest of us but he is a respected former PM

Respected?

[lucky]

Yes respected

[snooky]

Yes respected

:hmmm:

[ronaldo7]

Yes respected

18247

[RyeSloan]

Yes respected

By some maybe.

I do think though that his statements do carry weight...they certainly did in the last Indy campaign (although it does feel like it has never really stopped!).

Or maybe I should say did rather than do. I can't help feeling the vast majority won't really care what he says now. Someone mentioned that they likened it to John Majors input and personally at least that felt about right.