Indy2 hurdles

[Hibbyradge]

Brexit will be a huge incentive for people to vote for Independence this time, but there are still some very difficult hurdles for the Yes camp to overcome.

I do hope that sensible, and credible, answers are given to important issues such as currency, the deficit and open borders.

The Yes camp only have to persuade 200000 people to change from No to Yes so if they're better prepared on those areas this time, I think there's a great chance of success.

[BroxburnHibee]

Brexit will be a huge incentive for people to vote for Independence this time, but there are still some very difficult hurdles for the Yes camp to overcome.

I do hope that sensible, and credible, answers are given to important issues such as currency, the deficit and open borders.

The Yes camp only have to persuade 200000 people to change from No to Yes so if they're better prepared on those areas this time, I think there's a great chance of success.

I think the currency question was one of the biggest mistakes of the last one. Caused confusion which led a lot of people to play safe.

Its not just a matter of switching No voters though. There will be a lot of Yes voters who've had enough of all this. They'll need to be won all over again.

[Mike Berry]

It's going to need a different approach this time. For example, I think it was a mistake to propose holding on the pound. There's no reason why we couldn't have our own currency, and the whole 'keep the pound" argument was always going to be tough to win.

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

I think the currency question was one of the biggest mistakes of the last one. Caused confusion which led a lot of people to play safe.

Its not just a matter of switching No voters though. There will be a lot of Yes voters who've had enough of all this. They'll need to be won all over again.

We keep hearing about the third of SNP voters who voted to leave the EU, but not about the those who maybe vote No and the vote remain. Any idea what their numbers were?

[Hibbyradge]

We keep hearing about the third of SNP voters who voted to leave the EU, but not about the those who maybe vote No and the vote remain. Any idea what their numbers were?

There will be plenty EU citizens who voted No last time in order to preserve our EU status. They'll vote Yes this time for sure.

[BroxburnHibee]

There will be plenty EU citizens who voted No last time in order to preserve our EU status. They'll vote Yes this time for sure.

That's true. I worked with a lot of Polish people who were scared of a Yes vote.

[Hibbyradge]

I think the currency question was one of the biggest mistakes of the last one. Caused confusion which led a lot of people to play safe.

Its not just a matter of switching No voters though. There will be a lot of Yes voters who've had enough of all this. They'll need to be won all over again.

Theres a lot of campaigning to do, of course, but being fed up won't change people's vote from Yes to No, I wouldn't have thought.

Brexit, and what was said about it in the campaign, weakens the No camp's arguments significance, imo.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think the currency question was one of the biggest mistakes of the last one. Caused confusion which led a lot of people to play safe.

Its not just a matter of switching No voters though. There will be a lot of Yes voters who've had enough of all this. They'll need to be won all over again.

Currency was undoubtedly a major factor. To recap, what happened was:

- Salmond commissioned a panel of indepdendent experts including 2 Nobel prize winning economists to design a macroeconomic framework
- they recommended a sterling zone as optimal (for both sides btw, not just us)
- the Yes camp took that forward
- UK gov realised it could throw a spanner in by saying No chance
- that left Yes in the crap position of pursuing something they had been told was best but opponents had ruled out or adopting a u-turn to something their experts had said was sub-optimal

This time, there's no chance they'll make that mistake, it'll be transitional use of sterling followed by own currency. Apart from the obviously more politically defensible position, it also makes more economic sense this time as our economy will almost certainly diverge further and faster from rUK's with us in a huge European market and them buccaneering across the globe.

So, what's the downside to our own currency? Mainly setup, as in you need ready access to a large foreign currency reserve. Now, if only we owned a population share of an already established central bank with a huge foreign currency reserve ...

[hibby rae]

One thing also worth noting, although a morbid point, is the number of voters who have passed away since the last vote. The demographics are fairly clear that No voters tended to be older and Yes voters younger.

[BroxburnHibee]

Theres a lot of campaigning to do, of course, but being fed up won't change people's vote from Yes to No, I wouldn't have thought.

Brexit, and what was said about it in the campaign, weakens the No camp's arguments significance, imo.

Well my brother says he'll switch from Yes to No :greengrin

I've got 2 years to change his mind though....

[Smartie]

Defence.

My brother's in the Navy and he would want some answers on that.

TBH there's no way in a million years he'd vote for Independence so I don't even know if it is that big a deal.


Finance, economy, currency and what that would mean will be the biggest factor - again - and I do think that the "no" side hold the upper hand in this argument. I don't necessarily think they are right (quite the opposite) but it is easy for them (whatever the SNP propose) to oppose it and terrify the old dears that they won't get their pension in an Independent Scotland.

The benefit this time though is that the status quo doesn't look quite as secure as it did 2 years ago.


It'll probably all degenerate into a load of meaningless crap about rebuilding Hadrian's wall.

[CropleyWasGod]

Defence.

My brother's in the Navy and he would want some answers on that.

TBH there's no way in a million years he'd vote for Independence so I don't even know if it is that big a deal.


Finance, economy, currency and what that would mean will be the biggest factor - again - and I do think that the "no" side hold the upper hand in this argument. I don't necessarily think they are right (quite the opposite) but it is easy for them (whatever the SNP propose) to oppose it and terrify the old dears that they won't get their pension in an Independent Scotland.

The benefit this time though is that the status quo doesn't look quite as secure as it did 2 years ago.


It'll probably all degenerate into a load of meaningless crap about rebuilding Hadrian's wall.
If we rebuild the wall, the Geordies become Scottish.

Good thing or not??? 😁

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Hibbyradge]

Well my brother says he'll switch from Yes to No :greengrin

I've got 2 years to change his mind though....

Plus, you know where he lives. :turnevil:

[Hibbyradge]

If the UK government doesn't give assurances to EU workers who currently live here, I don't expect the EU to do so for British ex-pats.

In the event of a Yes vote, think how will that affect folk from Wales, Northern Ireland and England who live in Scotland.

Most of them will be No voters already, I imagine.

[JackLadd]

Defence.

My brother's in the Navy and he would want some answers on that.

TBH there's no way in a million years he'd vote for Independence so I don't even know if it is that big a deal.


Finance, economy, currency and what that would mean will be the biggest factor - again - and I do think that the "no" side hold the upper hand in this argument. I don't necessarily think they are right (quite the opposite) but it is easy for them (whatever the SNP propose) to oppose it and terrify the old dears that they won't get their pension in an Independent Scotland.

The benefit this time though is that the status quo doesn't look quite as secure as it did 2 years ago.


It'll probably all degenerate into a load of meaningless crap about rebuilding Hadrian's wall.


You can't guarantee anybody will get the same pension or level of social care under Sturgeon's iScotland. The tax base will shrink as people will leave to avoid the tax hike, property values collapsing and loss of sterling, and the deficit is already at 9% with no means of issuing debt instruments via a central bank. That means swingeing cuts from somewhere on day one of the tartan - Brussels rule us please - utopia.

[Beefster]

There will be plenty EU citizens who voted No last time in order to preserve our EU status. They'll vote Yes this time for sure.

Not necessarily. I voted No last time and Remain last year. I'll vote Yes this time if and only if there is either an agreement that an independent Scotland will remain in the EU or we have cast-iron assurances on the timescale of our EU application (and that it will be treated as a priority).

[Bristolhibby]

Defence.

My brother's in the Navy and he would want some answers on that.

TBH there's no way in a million years he'd vote for Independence so I don't even know if it is that big a deal.


Finance, economy, currency and what that would mean will be the biggest factor - again - and I do think that the "no" side hold the upper hand in this argument. I don't necessarily think they are right (quite the opposite) but it is easy for them (whatever the SNP propose) to oppose it and terrify the old dears that they won't get their pension in an Independent Scotland.

The benefit this time though is that the status quo doesn't look quite as secure as it did 2 years ago.


It'll probably all degenerate into a load of meaningless crap about rebuilding Hadrian's wall.

If he's a lost cause, then focus your energy on those who can be swayed. Don't tie yourself up in knots. That's my take away. I'm going to be much more focused and less preachy.

Regarding the RN, he will continue to serve. As there are already a host of commonwealth service personnel in the Royal Navy, including Irish.

There will be a wealth of opportunities for a proactive agile person in the Scottish Defence Force, not to mention promotions by the bucket load.

The simple pension answer for me is to look at the hundreds of thousand of U.K. pensioners that live in Europe and draw their pensions in Euros.

They still get their pensions, why wouldn't an iScotland with the Scottish Pound not get their pensions?

J

[Bristolhibby]

You can't guarantee anybody will get the same pension or level of social care under Sturgeon's iScotland. The tax base will shrink as people will leave to avoid the tax hike, property values collapsing and loss of sterling, and the deficit is already at 9% with no means of issuing debt instruments via a central bank. That means swingeing cuts from somewhere on day one of the tartan - Brussels rule us please - utopia.

Why not? We all own 10% of the BOE.

[JackLadd]

If he's a lost cause, then focus your energy on those who can be swayed. Don't tie yourself up in knots. That's my take away. I'm going to be much more focused and less preachy.

Regarding the RN, he will continue to serve. As there are already a host of commonwealth service personnel in the Royal Navy, including Irish.

There will be a wealth of opportunities for a proactive agile person in the Scottish Defence Force, not to mention promotions by the bucket load.

The simple pension answer for me is to look at the hundreds of thousand of U.K. pensioners that live in Europe and draw their pensions in Euros.

They still get their pensions, why wouldn't an iScotland with the Scottish Pound not get their pensions?

J

You'll be selling up and coming back to Scotland then? Putting all your assets in Sturgeon's unnamed currency?

[Bristolhibby]

You'll be selling up and coming back to Scotland then? Putting all your assets in Sturgeon's unnamed currency?

Could do. Or I could work in Ireland, or Denmark, or Slovakia.

No difference really.

J

[northstandhibby]

Not necessarily. I voted No last time and Remain last year. I'll vote Yes this time if and only if there is either an agreement that an independent Scotland will remain in the EU or we have cast-iron assurances on the timescale of our EU application (and that it will be treated as a priority).

Speaking with a well educated woman this morning informing me your outlined position is the same as hers. Voted No and Remain however leaving the EU is a game-changer for her and will now vote Yes dependent on guarantees of joining the EU as soon as is possible. The SNP must make clear the intention is to join the EU as a full or thereabouts membership, after all it is a hard brexit they are using as grounds to hold indy ref 2.

glory glory

[Beefster]

Speaking with a well educated woman this morning informing me your outlined position is the same as hers. Voted No and Remain however leaving the EU is a game-changer for her and will now vote Yes dependent on guarantees of joining the EU as soon as is possible. The SNP must make clear the intention is to join the EU as a full or thereabouts membership, after all it is a hard brexit they are using as grounds to hold indy ref 2.

glory glory

I think a lot of people will be like that. To be honest, if the SNP can come to an concrete arrangement with the EU on continuation of membership or a fast-tracked application before the referendum, I think that will be that.

[Smartie]

You can't guarantee anybody will get the same pension or level of social care under Sturgeon's iScotland. The tax base will shrink as people will leave to avoid the tax hike, property values collapsing and loss of sterling, and the deficit is already at 9% with no means of issuing debt instruments via a central bank. That means swingeing cuts from somewhere on day one of the tartan - Brussels rule us please - utopia.

What guarantees can you give re pensions post-hard-Brexit?

The tax base is shrinking as our workforce gets smaller and our population older and we already have a brain drain as we lose many of our most talented youngsters to the rest of the UK and further afield.

We have had decent amounts of EU immigration to paper over these cracks these past few years, preventing our poor situation from being worse. Hard Brexit will remove that so we will either need to be propped up further by England (which the English are becoming less and less prepared to do, understandably) or the swingeing cuts you mention will be inevitable anyway. Public services in Scotland are in a mess, not because of gross mismanagement by the SNP but because you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear and they're doing the best they can.

I share your concerns re debt instruments, central bank etc and these are questions I will want answered properly before I can say I am 100% on board.

I'm just about there though.

[JackLadd]

Could do. Or I could work in Ireland, or Denmark, or Slovakia.

No difference really.

J


I didn't say work here; I said sell up and invest your assets in Sturgeon's unnamed currency. Unless you're prepared to do that, and suffer with the rest of us if she convinces enough sheep to follow her off the cliff, you have no stake in this at all.

[northstandhibby]

I think a lot of people will be like that. To be honest, if the SNP can come to an concrete arrangement with the EU on continuation of membership or a fast-tracked application before the referendum, I think that will be that.

Totally agree with you bud. A concrete offer as you outline or possibly even a public announcement an application from an independent Scotland to the EU would be warmly welcomed could just about put the vote to bed in favor of Yes, no doubt.

glory glory

[Smartie]

If he's a lost cause, then focus your energy on those who can be swayed. Don't tie yourself up in knots. That's my take away. I'm going to be much more focused and less preachy.

Regarding the RN, he will continue to serve. As there are already a host of commonwealth service personnel in the Royal Navy, including Irish.

There will be a wealth of opportunities for a proactive agile person in the Scottish Defence Force, not to mention promotions by the bucket load.

The simple pension answer for me is to look at the hundreds of thousand of U.K. pensioners that live in Europe and draw their pensions in Euros.

They still get their pensions, why wouldn't an iScotland with the Scottish Pound not get their pensions?

J

Yeah, that's what I did before.

My family was totally split last time.

I focussed my attention on my other brother, with a degree of success in that I am 90% sure he voted yes. He was in a fairly influential position within the Scottish media at that time, but my efforts weren't quite enough to get his organisation's editorial position to be behind independence, instead choosing to be neutral.

Unfortunately he works down in London now so doesn't carry the same influence. Instead, I think I'm going to carry out an all-out terror campaign on my Mum and gran, telling them I can't afford to have children unless we gain our Independence. That should do the trick.

[Smartie]

I didn't say work here; I said sell up and invest your assets in Sturgeon's unnamed currency. Unless you're prepared to do that, and suffer with the rest of us if she convinces enough sheep to follow her off the cliff, you have no stake in this at all.

I don't agree with this at all.

Obviously the stake won't be as much as someone who lives here, but there is a vested interest in those on either side of the border to see each other succeed, whichever path we choose.

I happen to think it is in the best interests of both parties to go our separate ways.

[lyonhibs]

My big one is acceptance into the EU as a new nation.

As I understand it, all 27 member states have to say aye to that.

Terrified of their own independence squabbles, Spain will never agree to that along with potentially others looking to quash any domestic separatist movements.

[makaveli1875]

I think a lot of people will be like that. To be honest, if the SNP can come to an concrete arrangement with the EU on continuation of membership or a fast-tracked application before the referendum, I think that will be that.


Why woud the EU fast track scotlands application above other nations that have been waiting for years/decades to join ? what makes scotland so special in the eyes of the EU

[Hibbyradge]

Not necessarily. I voted No last time and Remain last year. I'll vote Yes this time if and only if there is either an agreement that an independent Scotland will remain in the EU or we have cast-iron assurances on the timescale of our EU application (and that it will be treated as a priority).

I didn't know you were an EU citizen, Beefster, but yes, membership will be a huge factor.

However, I would have thought that Sturgeon's assurance that folk from the EU who currently live in Scotland will be allowed to stay, will be persuasive to many of them who are very worried about their futures, whether or not EU membership is nailed on or not.

[Hibbyradge]

Why woud the EU fast track scotlands application above other nations that have been waiting for years/decades to join ? what makes scotland so special in the eyes of the EU


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XYIMvEvmwSs&feature=youtu.be

[CapitalGreen]

Why woud the EU fast track scotlands application above other nations that have been waiting for years/decades to join ? what makes scotland so special in the eyes of the EU

Because Scottish citizens are already currently EU citizens.

[Hibbyradge]

If the UK government doesn't give assurances to EU workers who currently live here, I don't expect the EU to do so for British ex-pats.

In the event of a Yes vote, think how will that affect folk from Wales, Northern Ireland and England who live in Scotland.

Most of them will be No voters already, I imagine.

In addition to the above complication, how will a Yes vote affect me, living in York, with a Polish father, a Scottish mother and an English wife. I'm royally goosed! :hilarious

[Geo_1875]

Why woud the EU fast track scotlands application above other nations that have been waiting for years/decades to join ? what makes scotland so special in the eyes of the EU

The fact that we currently hold membership and have indicated a wish to remain so.

[Slavers]

The fact that we currently hold membership and have indicated a wish to remain so.

Scotland does not hold membership of the EU. The UK does Scotland would need to reapply for membership.

[JackLadd]

What guarantees can you give re pensions post-hard-Brexit?

The tax base is shrinking as our workforce gets smaller and our population older and we already have a brain drain as we lose many of our most talented youngsters to the rest of the UK and further afield.

We have had decent amounts of EU immigration to paper over these cracks these past few years, preventing our poor situation from being worse. Hard Brexit will remove that so we will either need to be propped up further by England (which the English are becoming less and less prepared to do, understandably) or the swingeing cuts you mention will be inevitable anyway. Public services in Scotland are in a mess, not because of gross mismanagement by the SNP but because you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear and they're doing the best they can.

I share your concerns re debt instruments, central bank etc and these are questions I will want answered properly before I can say I am 100% on board.

I'm just about there though.


The Scottish economy grew 1.2% last year, not great but not a shrinkage as you claim.

The hysteria about 'hard brexit' from nats is laughable. Kindly present hard data to back up your claim that any kind of Brexit will affect us so negatively, so far it has done nothing of the sort. A small tariff on goods going to France and Germany, this overrated single market that cost £12bn a year, wow. Some restrictions on Financial Services, equal wow. We are not in the Euro thank god. And as for papering over the cracks with mass immigration, okay I can see some benefits to mass immigration but how did we cope up to 2004? Why are there still so many unemployed Scots? We have a housing crisis and an NHS in crisis because we can't cope with the numbers coming in. This is reflected in the schools also, a situation you think will be cured by Sturgeon yanking us away from London and towards Brussels and 5 useless MEP's. SNP are incompetent and ideologically driven rodents trying swim back onto a sinking ship. Look at what's happening in Europe, the EU represents nothing but failure.

[PeeJay]

Because Scottish citizens are already currently EU citizens.

Think you'll find it is BRITISH citizens that are currently EU citizens actually, which is why when the UK leaves the EU the British and by inference the Scottish will no longer be EU citizens ...

[JackLadd]

I don't agree with this at all.

Obviously the stake won't be as much as someone who lives here, but there is a vested interest in those on either side of the border to see each other succeed, whichever path we choose.

I happen to think it is in the best interests of both parties to go our separate ways.


he's in Bristol, not Carlisle, Berwick or Newcastle. He won't be facing going to a monetary exchange for Sturgeon groats if he fancies a weekend drive into Scotland. And that's another thing, iSturgeon will absolutely kill thousands of border businesses who depend on English visitors as the numbers will vanish, there could very well be a Trump style fence put up by them to protect themselves. Highly likely in fact.


The bit in bold, you have yet to make any case why it's in our best interests and why it will be better in any way. The points I listed yesterday remain unchallenged: iScotland is not a financially viable proposition at present, but Independence at any cost seems to be the mantra.

[Hibbyradge]

The Scottish economy grew 1.2% last year, not great but not a shrinkage as you claim.

The hysteria about 'hard brexit' from nats is laughable. Kindly present hard data to back up your claim that any kind of Brexit will affect us so negatively, so far it has done nothing of the sort.

Brexit hasn't happened yet, but already the pound is trading at $1.21 and €1.14.

Prices have already started to rise.

[JeMeSouviens]

he's in Bristol, not Carlisle, Berwick or Newcastle. He won't be facing going to a monetary exchange for Sturgeon groats if he fancies a weekend drive into Scotland. And that's another thing, iSturgeon will absolutely kill thousands of border businesses who depend on English visitors as the numbers will vanish, there could very well be a Trump style fence put up by them to protect themselves. Highly likely in fact.


The bit in bold, you have yet to make any case why it's in our best interests and why it will be better in any way. The points I listed yesterday remain unchallenged: iScotland is not a financially viable proposition at present, but Independence at any cost seems to be the mantra.

Utter drivel. Your hysterical, aggressive nonsense and attempt to poison any reasonable debate before it gets started clearly point to it being the Union at any cost for you. You must have been wetting your Union Jack y-fronts when that 50-50 poll came out last week. :wink:

[CapitalGreen]

Think you'll find it is BRITISH citizens that are currently EU citizens actually, which is why when the UK leaves the EU the British and by inference the Scottish will no longer be EU citizens ...

I thought Scottish citizens were currently UK citizens. Confusing!

[CapitalGreen]

Utter drivel. Your hysterical, aggressive nonsense and attempt to poison any reasonable debate before it gets started clearly point to it being the Union at any cost for you. You must have been wetting your Union Jack y-fronts when that 50-50 poll came out last week. :wink:

I found the following link useful for improving quality of debate. (http://www.hibs.net/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=34276)

[Moulin Yarns]

Why woud the EU fast track scotlands application above other nations that have been waiting for years/decades to join ? what makes scotland so special in the eyes of the EU

Because, unlike the other European nation states, we have been adopting and encompassing European Legislation since the UK became a member of the EU. There is a lot less work for iScotland to prepare for EU membership compared to the others in the queue

[Moulin Yarns]

In addition to the above complication, how will a Yes vote affect me, living in York, with a Polish father, a Scottish mother and an English wife. I'm royally goosed! :hilarious

Have you seen this FOI request, Dave?

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/in_york_it_is_perfectly_legal_to

[Hibbyradge]

I can't work out how to post the video so here's the whole tweet. What a wonderful but very sad analogy.

https://twitter.com/leomiklasz/status/841621272484302850?s=09

[Moulin Yarns]

he's in Bristol, not Carlisle, Berwick or Newcastle. He won't be facing going to a monetary exchange for Sturgeon groats if he fancies a weekend drive into Scotland. And that's another thing, iSturgeon will absolutely kill thousands of border businesses who depend on English visitors as the numbers will vanish, there could very well be a Trump style fence put up by them to protect themselves. Highly likely in fact.


The bit in bold, you have yet to make any case why it's in our best interests and why it will be better in any way. The points I listed yesterday remain unchallenged: iScotland is not a financially viable proposition at present, but Independence at any cost seems to be the mantra.

What are you going to do about Berwick Rangers playing in Scotland? Tell them to EFF OFF????

Are the people of Cornhill going to be refused treatment at their GP, in Coldstream?

Unreal! Borders are nought but a line on a map, and will remain so UNLESS rUK decdes otherwise, it certainly won't be at Scotland's behest.

[Hibbyradge]

Have you seen this FOI request, Dave?

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/in_york_it_is_perfectly_legal_to

Spookily, I literally just found that myself and posted it on my facebook in reply to someone else's comments on the " kill a Scotsman" subject.

It's great! 👍

[Moulin Yarns]

I found the following link useful for improving quality of debate. (http://www.hibs.net/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=34276)


:greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Spookily, I literally just found that myself and posted it on my facebook in reply to someone else's comments on the " kill a Scotsman" subject.

It's great! 👍

You're fine on Sundays though :wink:

[Hibbyradge]

You're fine on Sundays though :wink:

Depending on what you read, it's either excluding Sundays or only on Sundays. Also, I thought the Scotsman could be killed if he was carrying a bow and arrow.

Anyway, I'm not taking the chance. I live 6 miles from the city walls, I dumped my bow and arrow and, when we do go into the city, I let Mrs R do all the talking. :greengrin

[PeeJay]

I thought Scottish citizens were currently UK citizens. Confusing!

Yes, but I replied to your post where you stated Scottish citizens were EU citizens, BUT the UK is the actual member nation of the EU and thereby the defining factor, not Scotland - if the UK is in the EU, you as a Scotsman are also in, if the UK is out, you're out - simple really: not confusing at all ... but don't worry, if your into confusion it really is about to get a lot more confusing, I'm pretty sure ... :greengrin

[JackLadd]

Utter drivel. Your hysterical, aggressive nonsense and attempt to poison any reasonable debate before it gets started clearly point to it being the Union at any cost for you. You must have been wetting your Union Jack y-fronts when that 50-50 poll came out last week. :wink:


Dude, you need to say why it's drivel and stop playing the man. I am not aggressive at all; I am looking at the cold hard facts, not the romantic dreaming.

Just one small thing today that illustrates Sturgeon's madness: SLI shares down to £3.60 today from £4.10 last week - 10p below what they were trading at before the AAM merger was announced. Mergers raise stock prices but not when you have the disaster of a wee debt laden tartan republic trying to do business with it's 10 times larger landlocked neighbour that will have tariffs imposed by the unelected and unaccountable Monsieur Claude Juncker from Brussels. That spells uncertainty and shrinking confidence, oh but hard Brexit in the Union is worse.... Not according to the markets.

[Beefster]

I didn't know you were an EU citizen, Beefster, but yes, membership will be a huge factor.

However, I would have thought that Sturgeon's assurance that folk from the EU who currently live in Scotland will be allowed to stay, will be persuasive to many of them who are very worried about their futures, whether or not EU membership is nailed on or not.

I misunderstood you. I now realise that you mean non-UK citizens living in Scotland.

In my defence, we are all EU citizens at this point in time!

[Beefster]

Why woud the EU fast track scotlands application above other nations that have been waiting for years/decades to join ? what makes scotland so special in the eyes of the EU

I didn't say they would. I said if they did, it would wrap up the result of the referendum IMHO.

[JackLadd]

What are you going to do about Berwick Rangers playing in Scotland? Tell them to EFF OFF????

Are the people of Cornhill going to be refused treatment at their GP, in Coldstream?

Unreal! Borders are nought but a line on a map, and will remain so UNLESS rUK decdes otherwise, it certainly won't be at Scotland's behest.


I'm not going to do anything, dude. I want Berwick Rangers to be able to play in the Scottish leagues unhindered by fences, political or currency divisions and the people of Cornhill to get GP access in Coldstream, but you rightly point out that this is likely to end post Sturgeon's iref2 madness succeeding. And you will need health insurance if visiting England because you won't have free access to the NHS in what remains of the UK without it. That is another can of worms: the NHS, how it will be fully funded and run, a new separate iScotland health bureaucracy, retaining doctors and nurses who don't want to be paid in Sturgeon groats until she can get us on the useless and failed Euro. Madness.

[CapitalGreen]

stop playing the man.

You are a hypocrite. You called posters on this site SJWs and snowflakes yesterday.

[Hibbyradge]

I misunderstood you. I now realise that you mean non-UK citizens living in Scotland.

In my defence, we are all EU citizens at this point in time!

Gotcha. :aok:

[Bristolhibby]

I didn't say work here; I said sell up and invest your assets in Sturgeon's unnamed currency. Unless you're prepared to do that, and suffer with the rest of us if she convinces enough sheep to follow her off the cliff, you have no stake in this at all.

Yes you did.

"You'll be selling up and coming back to Scotland then?" Is what you said.

I'd imagine my assets (Pension & savings) currently trade transnational across the world in a multiple of currencies on a daily basis anyway.

Including the "Sturgeon Groat" in the future.

Scotland does own 10% of the Central Bank of England.

J

[Jack]

I'm not going to do anything, dude. I want Berwick Rangers to be able to play in the Scottish leagues unhindered by fences, political or currency divisions and the people of Cornhill to get GP access in Coldstream, but you rightly point out that this is likely to end post Sturgeon's iref2 madness succeeding. And you will need health insurance if visiting England because you won't have free access to the NHS in what remains of the UK without it. That is another can of worms: the NHS, how it will be fully funded and run, a new separate iScotland health bureaucracy, retaining doctors and nurses who don't want to be paid in Sturgeon groats until she can get us on the useless and failed Euro. Madness.

To be fair the Scottish NHS is already being run far better than their counterparts in England. It won't be long now before the NHS in England is privatised and everyone will need insurance to use it. Of course an independent Scotland will still have it's NHS operating on it's founding principles and have access to the EHIC card when visiting Europe.

As a whole the UK NHS already has agreements separate from the EHIC in place with non UK countries for treatment in each others countries. No reason for that to change.

[southfieldhibby]

My big one is acceptance into the EU as a new nation.

As I understand it, all 27 member states have to say aye to that.

Terrified of their own independence squabbles, Spain will never agree to that along with potentially others looking to quash any domestic separatist movements.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/these-spanish-politicians-say-spain-wont-stop-scotland-joini?utm_term=.mwQ7drzQW5#.edP5ZNeWXD

[stoneyburn hibs]

Sorry if it's been mentioned beforehand.
We (yes) really should be trying our utmost to engage both the European citizens living in Scotland and the younger generation that would now qualify to vote, kinda obvious I know. I'd like to think that Brexit would sway the majority of incomers eligible to vote to the yes side.

[Hibrandenburg]

Sorry if it's been mentioned beforehand.
We (yes) really should be trying our utmost to engage both the European citizens living in Scotland and the younger generation that would now qualify to vote, kinda obvious I know. I'd like to think that Brexit would sway the majority of incomers eligible to vote to the yes side.

I don't think we need to engage with our EU citizens living in Scotland, they're fully aware of the different attitude towards them from Sturgeon and May since the Brexit vote. Many of my EU friends living in England are the biggest Sturgeon fans I know.

[Bristolhibby]

Sorry if it's been mentioned beforehand.
We (yes) really should be trying our utmost to engage both the European citizens living in Scotland and the younger generation that would now qualify to vote, kinda obvious I know. I'd like to think that Brexit would sway the majority of incomers eligible to vote to the yes side.

Including current 14 year olds, who will be 16 by 2019. An even higher turnout from these voters will be crucial.

J

[speedy_gonzales]

Too many threads to post on so I picked this one;

Is there any guarantee an iScotland would actaually join the EU.
A lot of the conversation, here and elsewhere, seems to think seeking membership is a foregone conclusion.
It has been discussed already that Brexit was a material change to the political landscape so IndeyRef2 is inevitable, but I feel at this early stage all that is being discussed is how much better/prosperous an iScotland within the EU would be, but I know YES campaigners that voted for Brexit and want to set up a North Atlantic trading bloc (for example).

A few posters here are posting like it is inevitable we will join the EU proper, and I'm aware we can be fast-tracked as a lot of the framework is in place(due to the last 40+ years membership), but I can't help feeling people are ignoring the current position and are blindly saying "when we're in the EU" as if it's a done deal.

FWIW, I believe EU membership is the way to go for an iScotland.

[Hibrandenburg]

Too many threads to post on so I picked this one;

Is there any guarantee an iScotland would actaually join the EU.
A lot of the conversation, here and elsewhere, seems to think seeking membership is a foregone conclusion.
It has been discussed already that Brexit was a material change to the political landscape so IndeyRef2 is inevitable, but I feel at this early stage all that is being discussed is how much better/prosperous an iScotland within the EU would be, but I know YES campaigners that voted for Brexit and want to set up a North Atlantic trading bloc (for example).

A few posters here are posting like it is inevitable we will join the EU proper, and I'm aware we can be fast-tracked as a lot of the framework is in place(due to the last 40+ years membership), but I can't help feeling people are ignoring the current position and are blindly saying "when we're in the EU" as if it's a done deal.

FWIW, I believe EU membership is the way to go for an iScotland.

I truly believe that membership will be automatic or at least will be winked through. I don't believe the EU would risk losing Scotland by allowing a vacuum to materialise after a yes vote.

[Bristolhibby]

Too many threads to post on so I picked this one;

Is there any guarantee an iScotland would actaually join the EU.
A lot of the conversation, here and elsewhere, seems to think seeking membership is a foregone conclusion.
It has been discussed already that Brexit was a material change to the political landscape so IndeyRef2 is inevitable, but I feel at this early stage all that is being discussed is how much better/prosperous an iScotland within the EU would be, but I know YES campaigners that voted for Brexit and want to set up a North Atlantic trading bloc (for example).

A few posters here are posting like it is inevitable we will join the EU proper, and I'm aware we can be fast-tracked as a lot of the framework is in place(due to the last 40+ years membership), but I can't help feeling people are ignoring the current position and are blindly saying "when we're in the EU" as if it's a done deal.

FWIW, I believe EU membership is the way to go for an iScotland.

For me the status quo is we are leaving the EU. No iffs or buts, Brexit is happening.
Independence gives Scotland the opportunity to decide for itself whether it wants to be in the EU or not. Not be led down the garden path by Westminster and the English & Welsh.

Remember the EU is an expansive organisation, why would Scotland be denied?

J

[PeeJay]

Too many threads to post on so I picked this one;

Is there any guarantee an iScotland would actaually join the EU.
A lot of the conversation, here and elsewhere, seems to think seeking membership is a foregone conclusion.
It has been discussed already that Brexit was a material change to the political landscape so IndeyRef2 is inevitable, but I feel at this early stage all that is being discussed is how much better/prosperous an iScotland within the EU would be, but I know YES campaigners that voted for Brexit and want to set up a North Atlantic trading bloc (for example).

A few posters here are posting like it is inevitable we will join the EU proper, and I'm aware we can be fast-tracked as a lot of the framework is in place(due to the last 40+ years membership), but I can't help feeling people are ignoring the current position and are blindly saying "when we're in the EU" as if it's a done deal.

FWIW, I believe EU membership is the way to go for an iScotland.

When the UK leaves the EU, Scotland is out. Getting back is certainly possible, if desired, but it will be a matter of negotiations with the EU and ultimately being accepted by all 27 member states: how could it be any other way? Scotland does not yet exist as an independent nation, if it comes about, the Scottish negotating leverage will be significantly weaker than the UK's. Scotland will have to demonstrate that it wants to be a committed member of the EU and all that entails: what "we" really don't need is a mini version of the UK opting out of everything and demanding rebates.

[speedy_gonzales]

For me the status quo is we are leaving the EU. No iffs or buts, Brexit is happening.
Independence gives Scotland the opportunity to decide for itself whether it wants to be in the EU or not. Not be led down the garden path by Westminster and the English & Welsh.

Remember the EU is an expansive organisation, why would Scotland be denied?

J
I'm not suggesting we would be denied, I think although there will be tough negotiations ahead, the EU in general would welcome us.
What I'm asking is will we entertain the idea of joining. From my viewpoint most people living here see the EU as a good thing, however not everybody sees it that way.
Tongue firmly in cheek, but I wonder if an iScotland would have to hold a referendum to decide if we'd join the EU.
Or maybe we could conflate the two questions and have a 3rd option for IndeyRef2, a straight NO, a YES YES or a YES NO :thumbsup:

[JeMeSouviens]

When the UK leaves the EU, Scotland is out. Getting back is certainly possible, if desired, but it will be a matter of negotiations with the EU and ultimately being accepted by all 27 member states: how could it be any other way? Scotland does not yet exist as an independent nation, if it comes about, the Scottish negotating leverage will be significantly weaker than the UK's. Scotland will have to demonstrate that it wants to be a committed member of the EU and all that entails: what "we" really don't need is a mini version of the UK opting out of everything and demanding rebates.

I agree with that, as does the chairman of the European parliament foreign affairs committee:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/841698670772903937


it will be easy negotiations

[Bristolhibby]

I'm not suggesting we would be denied, I think although there will be tough negotiations ahead, the EU in general would welcome us.
What I'm asking is will we entertain the idea of joining. From my viewpoint most people living here see the EU as a good thing, however not everybody sees it that way.
Tongue firmly in cheek, but I wonder if an iScotland would have to hold a referendum to decide if we'd join the EU.
Or maybe we could conflate the two questions and have a 3rd option for IndeyRef2, a straight NO, a YES YES or a YES NO :thumbsup:

No tongue in cheek, but I think an iScotland should hold another referendum into joining the EU (that's if it doesn't manage to stay in).

Remember there is no precedent for a member leaving the EU, so there's certainly no precedent for a constituent part of said member staying in the EU as another part of the member leaves.

So don't let anyone tell you that there is hard and fast rules that Scotland would "have" to do. They are making up this **** as they go along.

I keep making the point, it will be I Scotlands decision to do what it decides it wants to do.

J

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm not suggesting we would be denied, I think although there will be tough negotiations ahead, the EU in general would welcome us.
What I'm asking is will we entertain the idea of joining. From my viewpoint most people living here see the EU as a good thing, however not everybody sees it that way.
Tongue firmly in cheek, but I wonder if an iScotland would have to hold a referendum to decide if we'd join the EU.
Or maybe we could conflate the two questions and have a 3rd option for IndeyRef2, a straight NO, a YES YES or a YES NO :thumbsup:

I think they might do what Austria, Sweden etc did in the early 90s. State intention to apply, negotiate and then hold a ratification referendum:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_related_to_the_European_Union#EU_enlar gement_of_1995

I would be wholly in favour of EU membership and I think a referendum on it would be a slam dunk. It'd be good to have it explicitly endorsed by the people though.

[steakbake]

No tongue in cheek, but I think an iScotland should hold another referendum into joining the EU (that's if it doesn't manage to stay in).

Remember there is no precedent for a member leaving the EU, so there's certainly no precedent for a constituent part of said member staying in the EU as another part of the member leaves.

So don't let anyone tell you that there is hard and fast rules that Scotland would "have" to do. They are making up this **** as they go along.

I keep making the point, it will be I Scotlands decision to do what it decides it wants to do.

J

We're all just riffing really... everything is up in the air. There are no solid answers either way you look.

A new referendum on independence has/will be brought about by the Brexit referendum.

I think the right thing to do in those circumstances, because Brexit is the premise for a new referendum, would be to honour the result in Scotland and seek to re-enter/remain in the EU or at very least, the single market/EEA.

It would have to be a matter of policy for the governing party in a Scottish parliament to bring us out of the EU in the future, should that prove to be the majority will of the electorate.

Ultimately though, in or out, we would at least have the genuine choice.

[Mr Grieves]

Why woud the EU fast track scotlands application above other nations that have been waiting for years/decades to join ? what makes scotland so special in the eyes of the EU

And again...
https://youtu.be/eQzm0FXXerM

German MEP on why Scotland is at an advantage in applying for EU membership

[Just Alf]

Re the so called iScotland fast track, that's not quite the correct description.

All those countries over the years joining the EU travelled the path at different paces, key is meeting the criteria across many areas, a fair judiciary, an embracing of democracy etc etc... in Scotlands case we already meet most (if not all?) Requirements.


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[makaveli1875]

And again...
https://youtu.be/eQzm0FXXerM

German MEP on why Scotland is at an advantage in applying for EU membership

for every european politician saying that there is another saying were at the back of the queue. We might well be at an advantage but that does not mean we are guarenteed to just waltz on in there .
There could be years of negotiations , there might not but lets be realistic it wont happen overnight.

If we learned anything from the last 2 referendums its trust no one on either side because they all spin ***** to suit there own agenda , pull facts and figures from the sky and make promises they cant keep

[johnbc70]

Spanish foreign minister has said he supports the Union and if Scotland did become independent then it would have to queue to start negotiations and meet all the various EU membership criteria.

All very strange as I am sure I saw some links that some Spanish dude said it would be all OK and it was fine. I thought that it was a done deal cause this Spanish dude said so.....?!

[steakbake]

Spanish foreign minister has said he supports the Union and if Scotland did become independent then it would have to queue to start negotiations and meet all the various EU membership criteria.

All very strange as I am sure I saw some links that some Spanish dude said it would be all OK and it was fine. I thought that it was a done deal cause this Spanish dude said so.....?!

Throw a stone in the air and it will hit a Spanish guy talking about the EU, Scotland and the Union. He will either confirm your view or oppose it.

Select as appropriate.

[Fergus52]

for every european politician saying that there is another saying were at the back of the queue. We might well be at an advantage but that does not mean we are guarenteed to just waltz on in there .
There could be years of negotiations , there might not but lets be realistic it wont happen overnight.

If we learned anything from the last 2 referendums its trust no one on either side because they all spin ***** to suit there own agenda , pull facts and figures from the sky and make promises they cant keep

Can you give examples of European politicians saying we'll be at the back of the que, or that our application isn't likely to be plain sailing?

Even Spain's ruling party have said that they won't veto our entry this time.

Also the MEP that has been interviewed this evening is highly influential. He's one of merkels right hand men and has served as chairman of the foreign affairs committee in the European Parliament for over 5 years.

[makaveli1875]

Can you give examples of European politicians saying we'll be at the back of the que, or that our application isn't likely to be plain sailing?

Even Spain's ruling party have said that they won't veto our entry this time.

Also the MEP that has been interviewed this evening is highly influential. He's one of merkels right hand men and has served as chairman of the foreign affairs committee in the European Parliament for over 5 years.

Spain's Foreign Minister Alfonso Dastis Sergio Perez/Reuters Scotland would "have to queue" to rejoin Europe in the event it achieved independence, Spain’s foreign minister has warned.
Alfonso Dastis said Spain wants "things to stay as they are" in response to Scottish first minister Nicola Sturgeon’s announcement that she plans to hold a second independence referendum.
He said: "Spain supports the integrity of the United Kingdom and does not encourage secessions or divisions in any of the member states. We prefer things to stay as they are."

[snooky]

Spain's Foreign Minister Alfonso Dastis Sergio Perez/Reuters Scotland would "have to queue" to rejoin Europe in the event it achieved independence, Spain’s foreign minister has warned.
Alfonso Dastis said Spain wants "things to stay as they are" in response to Scottish first minister Nicola Sturgeon’s announcement that she plans to hold a second independence referendum.
He said: "Spain supports the integrity of the United Kingdom and does not encourage secessions or divisions in any of the member states. We prefer things to stay as they are."

Spain is crapping themselves over Catalonia.
Who would expect anything else from Senor Dastis De Wayitiz.

[johnbc70]

Can you give examples of European politicians saying we'll be at the back of the que, or that our application isn't likely to be plain sailing?

Even Spain's ruling party have said that they won't veto our entry this time.

Also the MEP that has been interviewed this evening is highly influential. He's one of merkels right hand men and has served as chairman of the foreign affairs committee in the European Parliament for over 5 years.

Spanish Foreign Minister

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/14/spain-independent-scotland-would-be-at-the-back-of-eu-queue

[Slavers]

Spanish Foreign Minister

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/14/spain-independent-scotland-would-be-at-the-back-of-eu-queue

Somebody tell Nicola as she is telling everyone that we can be members of the EU within two years!!

[snooky]

Somebody tell Nicola as she is telling everyone that we can be members of the EU within two years!!

As an assimilation, years ago you had to go on a waiting list to join a golf club. Not now.
The EU is heading for a rocky ride. They won't want members leaving.
I can't see them playing hard ball to keep Scotland out of the fold. Surely we won't need a seconder to vouch for us.

[Just Alf]

Spain "beef " with Scottish independence is if we do it unconstitutionally... our democratic process requires the UK gov to give us permission to hold a referendum if we don't get that and go ahead anyway Spain will (legitimately in their eyes) reject any Scottish EU application as it would be viewed as undemocratic. The flip side is if we DO get the go ahead then they won't stand in our way. They want to keep their EU membership at the moment and turning against Democracy starts THEM on a road to exit.

The above is absolutely key to the Catalonia question! There is NO PROCESS currently for Catalonia to get a legal referendum in the current Spanish contituition.

It's all fine lines but for those involved very key.


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[Jack]

The EU may look very different in 2 or so years time.

There seems to be a few countries opposition parties spoiling to leave. To save the Euro dream some fundamental changes may come about.

By that time there may be all levels of membership for example.

Whatever happens it would be good to have the choice rather than being outside the tent, as rUK will be, with nowhere to piss.

[snooky]

Spanish Foreign Minister

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/14/spain-independent-scotland-would-be-at-the-back-of-eu-queue

https://mobile.twitter.com/GrayInGlasgow/status/841712781288177666/video/1 :coffee:

[Slavers]

As an assimilation, years ago you had to go on a waiting list to join a golf club. Not now.
The EU is heading for a rocky ride. They won't want members leaving.
I can't see them playing hard ball to keep Scotland out of the fold. Surely we won't need a seconder to vouch for us.

There are criteria that needs to be met to gain entry and at the moment Scotland meets none of the criteria.

But ultimately what you have said mean it will be another jump into the unknown with nothing concrete on getting EU membership. I dont see Scotland voting for another jump into the unknown, i could be wrong but i just dont see it.

There would need to be some certainty of gaining EU membership and even at that im not convinced that Scotland will chose the EU over the UK. All to play for in regards to winning votes.

[Moulin Yarns]

There are criteria that needs to be met to gain entry and at the moment Scotland meets none of the criteria.

But ultimately what you have said mean it will be another jump into the unknown with nothing concrete on getting EU membership. I dont see Scotland voting for another jump into the unknown, i could be wrong but i just dont see it.

There would need to be some certainty of gaining EU membership and even at that im not convinced that Scotland will chose the EU over the UK. All to play for in regards to winning votes.

Thw myth of Scotland not meeting the criteria again. Scotland already has all European laws and regulations that the Uk has at the moment. Indeed some Scottish laws are stronger than the rUK. The ones I rely on for my work certainly are.

[Slavers]

Thw myth of Scotland not meeting the criteria again. Scotland already has all European laws and regulations that the Uk has at the moment. Indeed some Scottish laws are stronger than the rUK. The ones I rely on for my work certainly are.

There is criteria such as the state of your economy. Scotland with a -9% budget deficit as a new nation applying would not meet the standards required. Then it would take all 27 members to agree to letting in Scotland as a new member but with a budget deficit worse than Greece.

I would think that would cause concern with some of the 27 nations who need to vote us in IMO.

[Jack]

There are criteria that needs to be met to gain entry and at the moment Scotland meets none of the criteria.

But ultimately what you have said mean it will be another jump into the unknown with nothing concrete on getting EU membership. I dont see Scotland voting for another jump into the unknown, i could be wrong but i just dont see it.

There would need to be some certainty of gaining EU membership and even at that im not convinced that Scotland will chose the EU over the UK. All to play for in regards to winning votes.

Even just the possibility/probably of EU membership seems preferable to the uncertainty of a post Brexit UK.

Indeed if you take away the politicians bull**** and read the less dramatic media even they describe the UKs future is "dire".

Can you tell us what criteria Scotland doesn't meet?

[Bristolhibby]

There are criteria that needs to be met to gain entry and at the moment Scotland meets none of the criteria.

But ultimately what you have said mean it will be another jump into the unknown with nothing concrete on getting EU membership. I dont see Scotland voting for another jump into the unknown, i could be wrong but i just dont see it.

There would need to be some certainty of gaining EU membership and even at that im not convinced that Scotland will chose the EU over the UK. All to play for in regards to winning votes.

From the European Comissions website

European Commission - Enlargement - Accession criteria

The accession criteria, or Copenhagen criteria (after the European Council in Copenhagen in 1993 which defined them), are the essential conditions all candidate countries must satisfy to become a member state. These are:

political criteria: stability of institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities;

economic criteria: a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competition and market forces;

administrative and institutional capacity to effectively implement the acquis and ability to take on the obligations of membership.

Scotland meets all requirements as funnily enough, Scotland is part of the EU.

J

[Just Alf]

There are criteria that needs to be met to gain entry and at the moment Scotland meets none of the criteria.
.

What specifically makes you think this? If Scotland genuinely didn't meet the EU membership criteria currently we'd be on one hand excluded from getting any EU funding, and as a current member, the UK would be getting its bottom spanked, neither of which seemed/seems to be happening.

It's this type of discussion where it gets interesting and worthwhile having a dialogue rather than some folks (not you) just sneering about groats and stuff.


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[The Harp Awakes]

Brexit will be a huge incentive for people to vote for Independence this time, but there are still some very difficult hurdles for the Yes camp to overcome.

I do hope that sensible, and credible, answers are given to important issues such as currency, the deficit and open borders.

The Yes camp only have to persuade 200000 people to change from No to Yes so if they're better prepared on those areas this time, I think there's a great chance of success.

The good thing is that there won't be as much persuading to do. Many foreign nationals living and working in Scotland will switch to yes for fear of being deported under Brexit; many thousands more young people will form the electorate compared with 2014 and they will predominantly vote Yes, and also many older folk who were more wedded to the Union in 2014 will not be with us in 2018/19.

The demographics and Brexit mean there will be a swing to Yes. Will it be enough though?

[Mr Grieves]

for every european politician saying that there is another saying were at the back of the queue. We might well be at an advantage but that does not mean we are guarenteed to just waltz on in there .
There could be years of negotiations , there might not but lets be realistic it wont happen overnight.

If we learned anything from the last 2 referendums its trust no one on either side because they all spin ***** to suit there own agenda , pull facts and figures from the sky and make promises they cant keep

Lets be clear here -there is not a queue to join the EU.

Example 1- Turkey applied for EU membership in 1987, but is still not a member.

Croatia applied 16 years after Turkey, in 2003, and is now a member of the EU.

Austria applied two years after Turkey, in 1989 and is now a member of the EU.

Sweden applied 4 years after Turkey, in 1991 and is now a member of the EU.

Example 2 - Finland applied for EU membership in 1992 and joined in 1995.

Sweden applied for EU membership 1 year before Finland, in 1991, but didn't gain membership until 1 year after Finland.

The length of time accession takes is based on meeting the criteria set out by the EU, not when you apply and who's applied before you.

[Slavers]

From the European Comissions website

European Commission - Enlargement - Accession criteria

The accession criteria, or Copenhagen criteria (after the European Council in Copenhagen in 1993 which defined them), are the essential conditions all candidate countries must satisfy to become a member state. These are:

political criteria: stability of institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities;

economic criteria: a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competition and market forces;

administrative and institutional capacity to effectively implement the acquis and ability to take on the obligations of membership.

Scotland meets all requirements as funnily enough, Scotland is part of the EU.

J

The UK is part of the EU but i did read somewhere that we didn't meet the criteria as all new members must run a surplus in their economy. I might have been reading something that's not true right enough, ill need to look into it further.

[ronaldo7]

The UK is part of the EU but i did read somewhere that we didn't meet the criteria as all new members must run a surplus in their economy. I might have been reading something that's not true right enough, ill need to look into it further.

Lucky for the UK that they're running the economy so smoothly then.:wink:

http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/

[Lancs Harp]

From the European Comissions website

European Commission - Enlargement - Accession criteria

The accession criteria, or Copenhagen criteria (after the European Council in Copenhagen in 1993 which defined them), are the essential conditions all candidate countries must satisfy to become a member state. These are:

political criteria: stability of institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities;

economic criteria: a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competition and market forces;

administrative and institutional capacity to effectively implement the acquis and ability to take on the obligations of membership.

Scotland meets all requirements as funnily enough, Scotland is part of the EU.

J

But Scotland is no more part of the EU than Lancashire is. The Brexit vote was for the UK to leave the EU, not for Scotland to leave the EU. Where do you draw the line? I voted to remain as did my street, my town voted to leave, my County voted remain, my country voted to leave.

[Slavers]

What specifically makes you think this? If Scotland genuinely didn't meet the EU membership criteria currently we'd be on one hand excluded from getting any EU funding, and as a current member, the UK would be getting its bottom spanked, neither of which seemed/seems to be happening.

It's this type of discussion where it gets interesting and worthwhile having a dialogue rather than some folks (not you) just sneering about groats and stuff.


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Im going to be vague here and say i read it or listened to it somewhere. Its just stuck in my mind that new members needed a surplus in their economy. Im sure it was a solution to nations like Greece applying to join and to try and stop that.

Ill try find a link if there is one.

[ronaldo7]

But Scotland is no more part of the EU than Lancashire is. The Brexit vote was for the UK to leave the EU, not for Scotland to leave the EU. Where do you draw the line? I voted to remain as did my street, my town voted to leave, my County voted remain, my country voted to leave.

Scottish institutions are fully compliant with EU law. This makes it easier to either stay or re-apply, rather than, say, Turkey, who've been joining since Adam was a boy.

Your country voted to leave, my country voted to remain.:wink:

[Just Alf]

Im going to be vague here and say i read it or listened to it somewhere. Its just stuck in my mind that new members needed a surplus in their economy. Im sure it was a solution to nations like Greece applying to join and to try and stop that.

Ill try find a link if there is one.

No worries, it's not always easy to find the links you want, I've tried often enough! Lol.

One thing I'm considering about all this... We are in uncharted waters and it's been mentioned already re article 50 that this is all new....
I wonder what would happen if the timings worked out that Scotland voted for independence while still legally part of the EU community. In the last referendum the no side were quite clear that the rUK would retain the membership and Scotland would need to reapply, could that possibly be turned round the other way?

So much to think about!



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[ronaldo7]

The good thing is that there won't be as much persuading to do. Many foreign nationals living and working in Scotland will switch to yes for fear of being deported under Brexit; many thousands more young people will form the electorate compared with 2014 and they will predominantly vote Yes, and also many older folk who were more wedded to the Union in 2014 will not be with us in 2018/19.

The demographics and Brexit mean thete will be a swing to Yes. Will it be enough though?

The Tory Government in England will want to push the Scotref into the long grass, and hold it after Brexit has been completed, and we're out of the EU. They will then say any EU nationals in Scotland will not be allowed to vote, as they're foreigners.

[Just Alf]

The Tory Government in England will want to push the Scotref into the long grass, and hold it after Brexit has been completed, and we're out of the EU. They will then say any EU nationals in Scotland will not be allowed to vote, as they're foreigners.

If that were really to happen then it would be the clearest signal that Scotland and England really do need to go their separate ways!

Despite everything the No side has attempted In the past to throw at the SNP being "nationalistic" in a bad way, the Yes side has always wanted to include EVERYONE that has made Scotland their home in the vote.

It really, really is ALL about self determination and nothing to do with hating people (although there's always idiots to muddy the waters)



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[The Harp Awakes]

The Tory Government in England will want to push the Scotref into the long grass, and hold it after Brexit has been completed, and we're out of the EU. They will then say any EU nationals in Scotland will not be allowed to vote, as they're foreigners.

If you assume that the Tory Government wants to hold onto Scotland then I agree that delaying a referendum may be in their interests.

Remember though that this is a very right wing Tory Government, many of whom would gladly see Scotland waltz off into the sunset. To date, Theresa May has put a brick wall up against any discussions with the Scottish Government over Brexit. That's either because she thinks Scotland is irrelevant and expendable or that she's up for a fight on independence. Time will tell I suppose.

[JackLadd]

If that were really to happen then it would be the clearest signal that Scotland and England really do need to go their separate ways!

Despite everything the No side has attempted In the past to throw at the SNP being "nationalistic" in a bad way, the Yes side has always wanted to include EVERYONE that has made Scotland their home in the vote.

It really, really is ALL about self determination and nothing to do with hating people (although there's always idiots to muddy the waters)



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



The SNP are happy to throw a vote at anybody who they think is daft enough to vote with their hearts and not their heads, like 16 year old school kids with no job to lose. As far as migrants voting, the naturalised ones I knew all went for No. None wanted to swap their hard earned British passport for some tartan excuse, and the false promise of EU later is not going to change that one inch: "Wur gonnay swap England fur the EU before we even know what's happenin or if we can even get in", that is an insane bum deal on multiple levels that any fool should see right through.

[Mon Dieu4]

The SNP are happy to throw a vote at anybody who they think is daft enough to vote with their hearts and not their heads, like 16 year old school kids with no job to lose. As far as migrants voting, the naturalised ones I knew all went for No. None wanted to swap their hard earned British passport for some tartan excuse, and the false promise of EU later is not going to change that one inch: "Wur gonnay swap England fur the EU before we even know what's happenin or if we can even get in", that is an insane bum deal on multiple levels that any fool should see right through.

I really hope that you help the better together side in the referendum, your belittling of people who don't share your view would help the yes campaign big time

Condescending doesn't even start to cover it

[snooky]

If that were really to happen then it would be the clearest signal that Scotland and England really do need to go their separate ways!

Despite everything the No side has attempted In the past to throw at the SNP being "nationalistic" in a bad way, the Yes side has always wanted to include EVERYONE that has made Scotland their home in the vote.

It really, really is ALL about self determination and nothing to do with hating people (although there's always idiots to muddy the waters)



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Agreed - this was a major difference in the Indy1 campaign strategies.
The Yes vote generally maintained a positive and welcoming persona contrary to the No campaign which was saturated with fear & negativity.

[JackLadd]

I really hope that you help the better together side in the referendum, your belittling of people who don't share your view would help the yes campaign big time

Condescending doesn't even start to cover it


If you read back at most of the responses I've received to the hard truths I posted (which I won't paste again to save nat coronary attacks) it's me who's been belittled, insulted and patronised by various nats. The hear no evil see no evil and SNP lie swallowing position boiled down is: don't bother me with the facts my mind is made up. If you can't attack the data, attack the man. And make all claims by proclamation, don't back it up by any research or verified data. In summation I may as well howl at the moon than present and argue facts and figures with SNP followers, but it's worth a try for the undecided.

[greenlex]

If you read back at most of the responses I've received to the hard truths I posted (which I won't paste again to save nat coronary attacks) it's me who's been belittled, insulted and patronised by various nats. The hear no evil see no evil and SNP lie swallowing position boiled down is: don't bother me with the facts my mind is made up. If you can't attack the data, attack the man. And make all claims by proclamation, don't back it up by any research or verified data. In summation I may as well howl at the moon than present and argue facts and figures with SNP followers, but it's worth a try for the undecided.

You really are a strange individual. You are calling out people from the yes side for doing exactly what you are doing for the unionist side except you are lowering it to the playground level. Everything that is wrong with the worst on both sides.

[SeanWilson]

You'll be selling up and coming back to Scotland then? Putting all your assets in Sturgeon's unnamed currency?

Bloody hell you remind me so much of why I switched off I all this last time round. The one track mindedness on both sides of the argument is what turns people off. How about allowing your mind to be open to other people's view point, life could be a little more fun.

[Bristolhibby]

The Tory Government in England will want to push the Scotref into the long grass, and hold it after Brexit has been completed, and we're out of the EU. They will then say any EU nationals in Scotland will not be allowed to vote, as they're foreigners.

Bingo! Dangerous game Maggie May. Scotlands Parliament should decide when a referendum is to be held.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-nicola-sturgeon-scottish-independence-second-referendum-a7628491.html

[Bristolhibby]

But Scotland is no more part of the EU than Lancashire is. The Brexit vote was for the UK to leave the EU, not for Scotland to leave the EU. Where do you draw the line? I voted to remain as did my street, my town voted to leave, my County voted remain, my country voted to leave.

The point I was making is Scotland (and Lancashire and Bristol) is fully compliant with the EU, because at this moment in time despite BREXIT we are all in the EU. Of course we are all compliant.

J

[ronaldo7]

If you assume that the Tory Government wants to hold onto Scotland then I agree that delaying a referendum may be in their interests.

Remember though that this is a very right wing Tory Government, many of whom would gladly see Scotland waltz off into the sunset. To date, Theresa May has put a brick wall up against any discussions with the Scottish Government over Brexit. That's either because she thinks Scotland is irrelevant and expendable or that she's up for a fight on independence. Time will tell I suppose.

I hope the "WHOLE" Scottish Parliament pushes back on any moves to interfere with a new Referendum, especially involving EU nationals who've settled and are working here. Residency rules will hopefully apply.

Time for the Parliament to speak for Scotland.

[Peevemor]

I hope the "WHOLE" Scottish Parliament pushes back on any moves to interfere with a new Referendum, especially involving EU nationals who've settled and are working here. Residency rules will hopefully apply.

Time for the Parliament to speak for Scotland.

I'd imagine they'll be looking to apply the same criteria as in 2014.

[CapitalGreen]

it's me who's been belittled, insulted and patronised by various nats

You are a hypocrite

[CropleyWasGod]

If you read back at most of the responses I've received to the hard truths I posted (which I won't paste again to save nat coronary attacks) it's me who's been belittled, insulted and patronised by various nats. The hear no evil see no evil and SNP lie swallowing position boiled down is: don't bother me with the facts my mind is made up. If you can't attack the data, attack the man. And make all claims by proclamation, don't back it up by any research or verified data. In summation I may as well howl at the moon than present and argue facts and figures with SNP followers, but it's worth a try for the undecided.

To be fair, it was you who started very early on with the "snowflake" comments, whilst also having a go at the admins of the site. That's hardly going to set a standard for intelligent debate, is it? Also, given that you were called out for your casual homophobia on another thread, and didn't respond, your reputation has probably preceded you.

[JeMeSouviens]

The UK is part of the EU but i did read somewhere that we didn't meet the criteria as all new members must run a surplus in their economy. I might have been reading something that's not true right enough, ill need to look into it further.

You are conflating the requirements for membership of the EU (Copenhagen criteria) with those for membership of the Eurozone (Maastricht criteria). Scotland meets the former but not the latter.

[bigwheel]

If you read back at most of the responses I've received to the hard truths I posted (which I won't paste again to save nat coronary attacks) it's me who's been belittled, insulted and patronised by various nats. The hear no evil see no evil and SNP lie swallowing position boiled down is: don't bother me with the facts my mind is made up. If you can't attack the data, attack the man. And make all claims by proclamation, don't back it up by any research or verified data. In summation I may as well howl at the moon than present and argue facts and figures with SNP followers, but it's worth a try for the undecided.


OK, I'll start. Your first fact is 68% of Scotland's trade is with "England". That is wrong. Official figures show for 2016, 63% of Scotland's trade was with the rest of the UK, so taking into account trade with Wales and NI, it is fair to conclude that the trade with England will be less than 60%.

When I saw this "fact" in your rant, the rest lacked credibility for me to take with seriously.

[Moulin Yarns]

You are conflating the requirements for membership of the EU (Copenhagen criteria) with those for membership of the Eurozone (Maastricht criteria). Scotland meets the former but not the latter.

Found this an interesting clip from the totally unbiased BBC :wink:

https://youtu.be/Zdz4Ats-TNc

[JeMeSouviens]

OK, I'll start. Your first fact is 68% of Scotland's trade is with "England". That is wrong. Official figures show for 2016, 63% of Scotland's trade was with the rest of the UK, so taking into account trade with Wales and NI, it is fair to conclude that the trade with England will be less than 60%.

When I saw this "fact" in your rant, the rest lacked credibility for me to take with seriously.

Part 2 - the cut'n'pasteathon included the falsehood that Scotland's "deficit" takes no account of "legacy debt" when in fact the GERS figures include a population share of UK debt repayments.

[northstandhibby]

Part 2 - the cut'n'pasteathon included the falsehood that Scotland's "deficit" takes no account of "legacy debt" when in fact the GERS figures include a population share of UK debt repayments.

Wouldn't we have to open up our own trade routes out of ports in Scotland and grow these ports and transport links to enable them to cope as all kinds of trade barriers and trade routes will have to be negotiated with in particular England? I'm no economist but I would suggest Scotland would have to improve all of our transport and trade links quite dramatically?

glory glory

[CapitalGreen]

Wouldn't we have to open up our own trade routes out of ports in Scotland and grow these ports and transport links to enable them to cope as all kinds of trade barriers and trade routes will have to be negotiated with in particular England? I'm no economist but I would suggest Scotland would have to improve all of our transport and trade links quite dramatically?

glory glory

Sounds like there would be some good job creation involved in that process. Particularly in areas that have seen industrial decline in recent times.

[Hibbyradge]

http://newsthump.com/2017/03/14/divisive-referendum-will-cause-huge-economic-uncertainty-says-woman-enacting-divisive-referendum-causing-huge-economic-uncertainty/

[Moulin Yarns]

Wouldn't we have to open up our own trade routes out of ports in Scotland and grow these ports and transport links to enable them to cope as all kinds of trade barriers and trade routes will have to be negotiated with in particular England? I'm no economist but I would suggest Scotland would have to improve all of our transport and trade links quite dramatically?

glory glory

What about the underused Rosyth Dockyard?

[northstandhibby]

Sounds like there would be some good job creation involved in that process. Particularly in areas that have seen industrial decline in recent times.

It would most certainly create jobs in these very important areas if Scotland wished to expand the economy. it would have to be overseen by politicians of substance.

glory glory

[Moulin Yarns]

I see the oil is still running out according to Sir Ian Wood :wink:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39253416?post_id=10205674986347989_102074552206527 34%3FSThisFB

[CropleyWasGod]

It would most certainly create jobs in these very important areas if Scotland wished to expand the economy. it would have to be overseen by politicians of substance.

glory glory

Forgive me if my blood runs cold at that bit.... politicans and commercial projects do not make very good bedfellows. Holyrood, the Millennium Dome, the trams..... :greengrin

That bit apart, the logic is sound.

[northstandhibby]

What about the underused Rosyth Dockyard?

The Ports are there, what would be required is massive spending on infrastructure of transport links and the shipping necessary to cope. I'm no economist however even I can see plenty or scope to grow the economy.

glory glory

[northstandhibby]

Forgive me if my blood runs cold at that bit.... politicans and commercial projects do not make very good bedfellows. Holyrood, the Millennium Dome, the trams..... :greengrin

That bit apart, the logic is sound.

:greengrin

Very true indeed. Put Hinds in charge and the ships would be issued with parking wardens and a 20 mph zone.

glory glory

[Moulin Yarns]

The Ports are there, what would be required is massive spending on infrastructure of transport links and the shipping necessary to cope. I'm no economist however even I can see plenty or scope to grow the economy.

glory glory

See that big thing that has been growing out of the Forth between the Forth Road Bridge and Rosyth Docks, that is going to be used as a transport link from south of the river to 2km from the docks :wink:

You are seeing obstacles that aren't there, IMHO

[northstandhibby]

See that big thing that has been growing out of the Forth between the Forth Road Bridge and Rosyth Docks, that is going to be used as a transport link from south of the river to 2km from the docks :wink:

You are seeing obstacles that aren't there, IMHO

You obviously didn't understand the context of my posts properly as I wasn't pointing to obstacles, I was pointing to opportunities to expand and grow the economy. The roads in Scotland require massive upgrading and one bridge being built while welcome is merely a starting point.

glory glory

[Moulin Yarns]

You obviously didn't understand the context of my posts properly as I wasn't pointing to obstacles, I was pointing to opportunities to expand and grow the economy. The roads in Scotland require massive upgrading and one bridge being built while welcome is merely a starting point.

glory glory

Road upgrading? Starting point??!!! It is already happening. Here are just three

http://www.transport.gov.scot/project/a9-dualling-perth-inverness

http://www.transport.gov.scot/project/a96-dualling-inverness-aberdeen

http://www.transport.gov.scot/project/m8-m73-m74-motorway-improvements

[northstandhibby]

Road upgrading? Starting point??!!! It is already happening. Here are just three

http://www.transport.gov.scot/project/a9-dualling-perth-inverness

http://www.transport.gov.scot/project/a96-dualling-inverness-aberdeen

http://www.transport.gov.scot/project/m8-m73-m74-motorway-improvements

I've driven all over Scotland and England, up and down the A1 the M6, M25 etcetera etcetera, from Cornwall, Kent, Dorset, Devon etc to Edinburgh and from Edinburgh to all over the highlands. The English arterial roads are far superior to ours and there's no doubt we need massive investment in our infrastructure to cope with being independent to grow the economy sufficiently. It's good to see improvements are underway on the roads you point to but much more will be required and will create jobs in the process.

glory glory

[Moulin Yarns]

I've driven all over Scotland and England, up and down the A1 the M6, M25 etcetera etcetera, from Cornwall, Kent, Dorset, Devon etc to Edinburgh and from Edinburgh to all over the highlands. The English arterial roads are far superior to ours and there's no doubt we need massive investment in our infrastructure to cope with being independent to grow the economy sufficiently. It's good to see improvements are underway on the roads you point to but much more will be required and will create jobs in the process.

glory glory

Why are you arguing?

These are just a few of the roads on the transport Scotland website to illustrate the point that road infrastructure is being improved already, not sometime in the future.

You appear to think things need to start being invested in, when in fact it is already happening. I only provided a few examples to illustrate this fact

[northstandhibby]

Why are you arguing?

These are just a few of the roads on the transport Scotland website to illustrate the point that road infrastructure is being improved already, not sometime in the future.

You appear to think things need to start being invested in, when in fact it is already happening. I only provided a few examples to illustrate this fact

I seem to remember it was you who took it upon yourself to debate my theorising of Scotland having to negotiate trade routes and invest in infrastructure to grow and expand the economy in the event of independence. You appear to be taking my honestly made points on much needed investment and negotiations personally for some reason.

glory glory

[Moulin Yarns]

Wouldn't we have to open up our own trade routes out of ports in Scotland and grow these ports and transport links to enable them to cope as all kinds of trade barriers and trade routes will have to be negotiated with in particular England? I'm no economist but I would suggest Scotland would have to improve all of our transport and trade links quite dramatically?

glory glory


I seem to remember it was you who took it upon yourself to debate my theorising of Scotland having to negotiate trade routes and invest in infrastructure to grow and expand the economy in the event of independence. You appear to be taking my honestly made points on much needed investment and negotiations personally for some reason.

glory glory

All I am pointing out to you is that this improvement and spending on the transport infrastructure you feel is required is already budgeted for and the work is well underway to cater for direct links to Europe and distribution throughout Scotland. It is part of what the Scottish Government does.

[Hibrandenburg]

I've driven all over Scotland and England, up and down the A1 the M6, M25 etcetera etcetera, from Cornwall, Kent, Dorset, Devon etc to Edinburgh and from Edinburgh to all over the highlands. The English arterial roads are far superior to ours and there's no doubt we need massive investment in our infrastructure to cope with being independent to grow the economy sufficiently. It's good to see improvements are underway on the roads you point to but much more will be required and will create jobs in the process.

glory glory

It's just a shame none of this massive investment took place over the last 300 years. At least since road infrastructure has been a devolved responsibility some progress has been made but 300 years of catchup might take some effort.

[northstandhibby]

All I am pointing out to you is that this improvement and spending on the transport infrastructure you feel is required is already budgeted for and the work is well underway to cater for direct links to Europe and distribution throughout Scotland. It is part of what the Scottish Government does.

Your'e merely illustrating my points that a massive amount of work is required to upgrade all of Scotland's infrastructure including transport links. Edinburgh the capital city requires major upgrades to routes in and out to the West and South. The M8 is a disgrace, the Biggar road linking the M6 is a disgrace and the A1 requires upgrading also among many other Scottish routes. Independence will hopefully allow us to address the many transport problems.

glory glory

[Moulin Yarns]

Your'e merely illustrating my points that a massive amount of work is required to upgrade all of Scotland's infrastructure including transport links. Edinburgh the capital city requires major upgrades to routes in and out to the West and South. The M8 is a disgrace, the Biggar road linking the M6 is a disgrace and the A1 requires upgrading also among many other Scottish routes. Independence will hopefully allow us to address the many transport problems.

glory glory

Just as well we would start with a healthy windfall then :wink:

http://www.businessforscotland.com/independence-will-generate-a-109000000000-asset-windfall-for-scotland/

A1 only needs upgrade as far as Eyemouth, we don't want to encourage cross border reivers!!

[northstandhibby]

It's just a shame none of this massive investment took place over the last 300 years. At least since road infrastructure has been a devolved responsibility some progress has been made but 300 years of catchup might take some effort.

Absolutely. Having driven all over the UK its easy for me to see the overspend on English arterial routes compared to ours. The links West and South from Edinburgh are not fit for purpose.

glory glory

[ronaldo7]

I noticed yesterday that Kevin Hague who provides some data on Scottish Independence, and GERS for the BBC and Sky to name but two, was tied up in a twitter spat with Professor Richard Murphy who works at City University London.

The spat surrounded the subject of GERS, which has oft been mentioned on this board. Safe to say the Professor made dogs food of Kevin:wink: and has provided a small summary for interested Scots.

https://t.co/1XnlsCeahm

[allmodcons]

Dude, you need to say why it's drivel and stop playing the man. I am not aggressive at all; I am looking at the cold hard facts, not the romantic dreaming.

Just one small thing today that illustrates Sturgeon's madness: SLI shares down to £3.60 today from £4.10 last week - 10p below what they were trading at before the AAM merger was announced. Mergers raise stock prices but not when you have the disaster of a wee debt laden tartan republic trying to do business with it's 10 times larger landlocked neighbour that will have tariffs imposed by the unelected and unaccountable Monsieur Claude Juncker from Brussels. That spells uncertainty and shrinking confidence, oh but hard Brexit in the Union is worse.... Not according to the markets.


I love the way you look at everything in the short term. First oil prices and now share prices. Funny how SLI was trading at £3.45 less than 2 months ago! By the way, it's common for a share price to peak when a merger is announced and then fall back once the detail of deal becomes clear. They peaked at £4.00 for 1 day but, hey, you wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of another embarrassing post.

https://www.google.co.uk/#q=standard+life+shares

[ronaldo7]

We'll have to speak this guy round. Might take some time though.

For people with a nervous disposition, please don't open the link.

https://youtu.be/xmU6jFn0BAM

[Moulin Yarns]

We'll have to speak this guy round. Might take some time though.

For people with a nervous disposition, please don't open the link.

https://youtu.be/xmU6jFn0BAM

That is wonderful. :greengrin

I think it should be played as the closing speech this weekend at the SNP conference.

[hibs0666]

There will be plenty EU citizens who voted No last time in order to preserve our EU status. They'll vote Yes this time for sure.

Scotland's EU status will not be preserved by this sham. Even the lead sham merchants are very careful to avoid making this claim.

That's opportunist politicians for you, not that your typical hard-core nat cares a jot, as the end justifies the means at any cost.

[allmodcons]

Scotland's EU status will not be preserved by this sham. Even the lead sham merchants are very careful to avoid making this claim.

That's opportunist politicians for you, not that your typical hard-core nat cares a jot, as the end justifies the means at any cost.

Would you agree Scotland has no chance protecting its EU status as part of the UK?

[hibs0666]

Would you agree Scotland has no chance protecting its EU status as part of the UK?

What do you mean by EU status? Is that the same or different to EU membership?

If you meran membership then I would asset that it is gone irrespective of the Scotland's constitutional settlement

[Moulin Yarns]

What do you mean by EU status? Is that the same or different to EU membership?

If you meran membership then I would asset that it is gone irrespective of the Scotland's constitutional settlement

You need to do better than just quote the PM. Try back it up with some form of debate.

Like this

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?319792-Indy-Ref-2&p=4979418&viewfull=1#post4979418

[hibs0666]

You need to do better than just quote the PM. Try back it up with some form of debate.

Like this

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?319792-Indy-Ref-2&p=4979418&viewfull=1#post4979418

You need to do better than quote a few articles that support your point of view. Since when was that debate??

[Moulin Yarns]

You need to do better than quote a few articles that support your point of view. Since when was that debate??

That was the level of debate expected of the tunnel visionaries of Brexit. The difference between the Brexit tunnel an the Independence tunnel is that the one I'm looking down has a light which is burning bright with future optimism while the one in your tunnel is the Brexit express hurtling off the cliff.

The articles support my view of course, and are written by academics who study the possible outcomes, and in this case they are positive for an Independent Scotland. Quoting the PM does your argument no favours.

[allmodcons]

What do you mean by EU status? Is that the same or different to EU membership?

If you meran membership then I would asset that it is gone irrespective of the Scotland's constitutional settlement

You don't know that for sure. Nobody does at this time.

What you can say without doubt, however, is that Scotland's membership as part of UK will cease to exist.

At this stage, nobody knows for sure what an Independent Scotland's EU status will be.

If you care to take off the blinkers for a minute, what you can't deny is that there's more chance of an Independent Scotland becoming an EU member state than the UK remaining one.

[hibs0666]

That was the level of debate expected of the tunnel visionaries of Brexit. The difference between the Brexit tunnel an the Independence tunnel is that the one I'm looking down has a light which is burning bright with future optimism while the one in your tunnel is the Brexit express hurtling off the cliff.

The articles support my view of course, and are written by academics who study the possible outcomes, and in this case they are positive for an Independent Scotland. Quoting the PM does your argument no favours.

I am in regular contact with academics i.e. I speak with them. The ones I have spoken with on this matter see this SNP move for what it is - naked opportunism.

But tell me more about this shining light nation at the end if your tunnel of hope? Tell me about it's relationship with its biggest trading partner that it so despises that it wants to rip up the existing relationship?

Tell me about this Scottish nirvana in which a massive government deficit can be addressed without budget cuts or income tax increases?

And I'm assuming that we are so wedded to the Europe vision post independence, that the Euro will be our currency of choice?

[Moulin Yarns]

I am in regular contact with academics i.e. I speak with them. The ones I have spoken with on this matter see this SNP move for what it is - naked opportunism.

But tell me more about this shining light nation at the end if your tunnel of hope? Tell me about it's relationship with its biggest trading partner that it so despises that it wants to rip up the existing relationship?

Tell me about this Scottish nirvana in which a massive government deficit can be addressed without budget cuts or income tax increases?

And I'm assuming that we are so wedded to the Europe vision post independence, that the Euro will be our currency of choice?

No. I saw your first post after the announcement on Monday and really have no need to enter into the type of conversation you are capable of. Bye

[hibs0666]

no. I saw your first post after the announcement on monday and really have no need to enter into the type of conversation you are capable of. Bye

lol

[McD]

Agreed - this was a major difference in the Indy1 campaign strategies.
The Yes vote generally maintained a positive and welcoming persona contrary to the No campaign which was saturated with fear & negativity.


I respectfully disagree - from what I saw, heard and witnessed and experienced, both sides were negative, belittling and patronising. I will also add that what I've just said was not everyone on both sides, not by a long chalk, however I don't believe it's fair to say either side was particularly better than the other, in my experience anyway.

[Hibbyradge]

I respectfully disagree - from what I saw, heard and witnessed and experienced, both sides were negative, belittling and patronising. I will also add that what I've just said was not everyone on both sides, not by a long chalk, however I don't believe it's fair to say either side was particularly better than the other, in my experience anyway.

I agree with this. I voted Yes, but some of the worst vitriol came from that camp.

[allmodcons]

I am in regular contact with academics i.e. I speak with them. The ones I have spoken with on this matter see this SNP move for what it is - naked opportunism.

But tell me more about this shining light nation at the end if your tunnel of hope? Tell me about it's relationship with its biggest trading partner that it so despises that it wants to rip up the existing relationship?

Tell me about this Scottish nirvana in which a massive government deficit can be addressed without budget cuts or income tax increases?

And I'm assuming that we are so wedded to the Europe vision post independence, that the Euro will be our currency of choice?

Which one of your academic friends is telling you that an Independent Scotland would not be looking to trade with rUK or vice versa. They sell more goods and services to us than we to them and they'll be desperate for trade deals post Brexit.

Scotland has no debt. How can Scotland have a debt when the country can't borrow. The debt your talking about is UK debt and, tell me, who's been in charge of macro economic policy during the period said debt was accumulated? How much is it now, £1.7 trillion or thereabouts? Tell me more about this UK nirvana you live in.

[JackLadd]

Scotland will inherit its share of the national debt. £150bn or thereabouts. Meanwhile the current Scotland budget deficit of 9% is three times higher than the European convergence criteria. This is certain to worsen after any aye2 vote succeeding as people and jobs will leave for south of the border and shrink tax revenues further. New Prime Minister Sturgeon will need to find immediate cuts of over £10bn (although it will be in some unknown currency) to meet the Maastricht 3% deficit limit. So once she's decimated public services, we can get our wee diddly no influence or power 6 MEP's back into Brussels and start paying them 1.5bn euro a year for the privilege. Meanwhile the 1m Scottish jobs that depend on our 68% trade with England are subject to tariffs. So we leave a free of charge union with our ancient landlocked neighbour and start paying Juncker 1.5bn a year while starving ourselves to death to meet their criteria. Not that we can borrow anyway with no central bank or rating.

Lamb free coverage folks. Don't believe the lying SNP.

[allmodcons]

Scotland will inherit its share of the national debt. £150bn or thereabouts. Meanwhile the current Scotland budget deficit of 9% is three times higher than the European convergence criteria. This is certain to worsen after any aye2 vote succeeding as people and jobs will leave for south of the border and shrink tax revenues further. New Prime Minister Sturgeon will need to find immediate cuts of over £10bn (although it will be in some unknown currency) to meet the Maastricht 3% deficit limit. So once she's decimated public services, we can get our wee diddly no influence or power 6 MEP's back into Brussels and start paying them 1.5bn euro a year for the privilege. Meanwhile the 1m Scottish jobs that depend on our 68% trade with England are subject to tariffs. So we leave a free of charge union with our ancient landlocked neighbour and start paying Juncker 1.5bn a year while starving ourselves to death to meet their criteria. Not that we can borrow anyway with no central bank or rating.

Lamb free coverage folks. Don't believe the lying SNP.


Can you substantiate any of the claims you make in this post?

How do you know how much of the UK debt an iScotland will inherit?

How do you know that jobs will migrate south from an iScotland to a post Brexit isolated rUK.

Where are you getting the 9% deficit figure? Discredited GERS? A single year of GERS? Can you tell me who created the debt and has been running a deficit for years on end?

Where do you get the figure of 1 million jobs being dependent on trade with rUK? As I've asked you before (without response) you do know that England sell more goods and services to us than we to them? In your made up world of new trading tarriffs we'd be net beneficiaries in terms of trade with rUK.

Usual list of assertions from you, no hard facts and absolutely nothing to substantiate the wild claims you make.

You are the worst kind of British Nationalist. Arrogant and completely blinkered by the dream of a new British Empire.

[Hibbyradge]

Scotland will inherit its share of the national debt. £150bn or thereabouts. Meanwhile the current Scotland budget deficit of 9% is three times higher than the European convergence criteria. This is certain to worsen after any aye2 vote succeeding as people and jobs will leave for south of the border and shrink tax revenues further. New Prime Minister Sturgeon will need to find immediate cuts of over £10bn (although it will be in some unknown currency) to meet the Maastricht 3% deficit limit. So once she's decimated public services, we can get our wee diddly no influence or power 6 MEP's back into Brussels and start paying them 1.5bn euro a year for the privilege. Meanwhile the 1m Scottish jobs that depend on our 68% trade with England are subject to tariffs. So we leave a free of charge union with our ancient landlocked neighbour and start paying Juncker 1.5bn a year while starving ourselves to death to meet their criteria. Not that we can borrow anyway with no central bank or rating.

Lamb free coverage folks. Don't believe the lying SNP.

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/03/15/more-on-why-gers-might-properly-be-called-crap-data/

[Moulin Yarns]

Scotland will inherit its share of the national debt. £150bn or thereabouts. Meanwhile the current Scotland budget deficit of 9% is three times higher than the European convergence criteria. This is certain to worsen after any aye2 vote succeeding as people and jobs will leave for south of the border and shrink tax revenues further. New Prime Minister Sturgeon will need to find immediate cuts of over £10bn (although it will be in some unknown currency) to meet the Maastricht 3% deficit limit. So once she's decimated public services, we can get our wee diddly no influence or power 6 MEP's back into Brussels and start paying them 1.5bn euro a year for the privilege. Meanwhile the 1m Scottish jobs that depend on our 68% trade with England are subject to tariffs. So we leave a free of charge union with our ancient landlocked neighbour and start paying Juncker 1.5bn a year while starving ourselves to death to meet their criteria. Not that we can borrow anyway with no central bank or rating.

Lamb free coverage folks. Don't believe the lying SNP.

Repeat the same stuff doesn't make your argument any clearer. Find some information to back up your claims except some have already been disproved but you still repeated it. Strange.

[hibs0666]

Which one of your academic friends is telling you that an Independent Scotland would not be looking to trade with rUK or vice versa. They sell more goods and services to us than we to them and they'll be desperate for trade deals post Brexit.

Scotland has no debt. How can Scotland have a debt when the country can't borrow. The debt your talking about is UK debt and, tell me, who's been in charge of macro economic policy during the period said debt was accumulated? How much is it now, £1.7 trillion or thereabouts? Tell me more about this UK nirvana you live in.

What on earth are you on about?

Who said I had discussed UK trade with academics?

Why are you mixing debt and deficit?

[JackLadd]

Repeat the same stuff doesn't make your argument any clearer. Find some information to back up your claims except some have already been disproved but you still repeated it. Strange.



Kindly list your claims and let me destroy them line by line. Let's go at it.

[JackLadd]

Can you substantiate any of the claims you make in this post?

How do you know how much of the UK debt an iScotland will inherit?

How do you know that jobs will migrate south from an iScotland to a post Brexit isolated rUK.

Where are you getting the 9% deficit figure? Discredited GERS? A single year of GERS? Can you tell me who created the debt and has been running a deficit for years on end?

Where do you get the figure of 1 million jobs being dependent on trade with rUK? As I've asked you before (without response) you do know that England sell more goods and services to us than we to them? In your made up world of new trading tarriffs we'd be net beneficiaries in terms of trade with rUK.

Usual list of assertions from you, no hard facts and absolutely nothing to substantiate the wild claims you make.

You are the worst kind of British Nationalist. Arrogant and completely blinkered by the dream of a new British Empire.


Unlike you I don't post claims, I post facts. An economist in the Scotsman today fully backed up the £11bn deficit. Go read it. The arrogance and logic lite blinkers are all yours.

[Mon Dieu4]

Unlike you I don't post claims, I post facts. An economist in the Scotsman today fully backed up the £11bn deficit. Go read it. The arrogance and logic lite blinkers are all yours.

What a economist states isn't a "fact", if it was then every economist would agree on everything, Stiglitz the Nobel prize winning economist certainly didnt agree at the last referendum

[Hibbyradge]

Unlike you I don't post claims, I post facts. An economist in the Scotsman today fully backed up the £11bn deficit. Go read it. The arrogance and logic lite blinkers are all yours.

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/03/15/more-on-why-gers-might-properly-be-called-crap-data/

Fact? Or will you ignore it again? :dunno:

[Moulin Yarns]

What on earth are you on about?

Who said I had discussed UK trade with academics?

Why are you mixing debt and deficit?

You alluded to it in this post


I am in regular contact with academics i.e. I speak with them. The ones I have spoken with on this matter see this SNP move for what it is - naked opportunism.

But tell me more about this shining light nation at the end if your tunnel of hope? Tell me about it's relationship with its biggest trading partner that it so despises that it wants to rip up the existing relationship?

Tell me about this Scottish nirvana in which a massive government deficit can be addressed without budget cuts or income tax increases?

And I'm assuming that we are so wedded to the Europe vision post independence, that the Euro will be our currency of choice?

[Moulin Yarns]

Kindly list your claims and let me destroy them line by line. Let's go at it.


I Haven't made any wild and unsubstantiated claims like you have. I have however done some research and found an Oxford University professor of Economics who has put a lot more credence on my opinions than some of your 'facts'

[allmodcons]

Unlike you I don't post claims, I post facts. An economist in the Scotsman today fully backed up the £11bn deficit. Go read it. The arrogance and logic lite blinkers are all yours.

Would you like to answer any of the questions I asked or are you simply going to refer me to the Scotsman and a piece by a renowned anti Independence Economist?

You would have been just as well referring me to John McTernan.

You might want to check out John McLaren's history and background before referencing him as a source for your 'independent facts'.

[allmodcons]

I am in regular contact with academics i.e. I speak with them. The ones I have spoken with on this matter see this SNP move for what it is - naked opportunism.

But tell me more about this shining light nation at the end if your tunnel of hope? Tell me about it's relationship with its biggest trading partner that it so despises that it wants to rip up the existing relationship?

Tell me about this Scottish nirvana in which a massive government deficit can be addressed without budget cuts or income tax increases?

And I'm assuming that we are so wedded to the Europe vision post independence, that the Euro will be our currency of choice?


Which one of your academic friends is telling you that an Independent Scotland would not be looking to trade with rUK or vice versa. They sell more goods and services to us than we to them and they'll be desperate for trade deals post Brexit.

Scotland has no debt. How can Scotland have a debt when the country can't borrow. The debt your talking about is UK debt and, tell me, who's been in charge of macro economic policy during the period said debt was accumulated? How much is it now, £1.7 trillion or thereabouts? Tell me more about this UK nirvana you live in.


What on earth are you on about?

Who said I had discussed UK trade with academics?

Why are you mixing debt and deficit?

Let's go through it step by step for you. You reference Scotland running a deficit and I reply by referencing debt.

I fully understand the difference between deficit and debt. Are you suggesting the two are mutually exclusive?

Also, can you respond to the issue I raise with regard to trade or are you just going to ignore it?

[Moulin Yarns]

Unlike you I don't post claims, I post facts. An economist in the Scotsman today fully backed up the £11bn deficit. Go read it. The arrogance and logic lite blinkers are all yours.

Will you makeup your mind??? is it £9bn or £11bn deficit I know the disUK is going down the tubes but to suggest the deficit has grown so much in 3 days is flabbergasting!!

Now, go away and do some research to back up your facts and find independent, non partisan sources or there is no chance of you being taken seriously.

[hibs0666]

Let's go through it step by step for you. You reference Scotland running a deficit and I reply by referencing debt.

I fully understand the difference between deficit and debt. Are you suggesting the two are mutually exclusive?

Also, can you respond to the issue I raise with regard to trade or are you just going to ignore it?

I stiil have no idea why you talk about a Scottish deficit and Scottish debt. Scotland does run a deficit as per GERS, but has no debt as such since that sits with the UK. So I have no idea where you are trying to go with that discussion as it is apples and pears.

As regards trade I have not discussed it with academics and so I cannot answer your question.

Now, are you going to have a go at answering the questions I posed and that you have kindly quoted?

[hibs0666]

You alluded to it in this post

I thought you'd wandered off in the huff. Are you back to debate points now?

[Moulin Yarns]

I thought you'd wandered off in the huff. Are you back to debate points now?

I won't be debating anything with someone that was the first person to be put on my ignore list 2 years ago. It would be a waste of the skin on my fingertips.

[hibs0666]

I won't be debating anything with someone that was the first person to be put on my ignore list 2 years ago. It would be a waste of the skin on my fingertips.

LOL sorry to hear about your delicate fingertips. Hope it's not too debilitating.

[allmodcons]

I stiil have no idea why you talk about a Scottish deficit and Scottish debt. Scotland does run a deficit as per GERS, but has no debt as such since that sits with the UK. So I have no idea where you are trying to go with that discussion as it is apples and pears.

As regards trade I have not discussed it with academics and so I cannot answer your question.

Now, are you going to have a go at answering the questions I posed and that you have kindly quoted?

No worries. Read my post in response to Jackladd at 9.41pm yesterday and once you've spoken with your academic friends you can let me know what they think.

Nobody but you is suggesting an iScotland will be some kind of nirvana, but it sure as hell won't be the backwater you and Jackladd suggest.

[Moulin Yarns]

We keep seeing the GERS being held as evidence that Scotland would no be a viable independent country, however....


GERS is mentioned by politicians in the debate on Scottish Independence. Pro-unionist figures such as those in the British Government widely quote GERS as indication of negative health of the Scottish economy.


Merryn Someset Webb in the Financial Times sought input to GERS credibility from James Ferguson of The MacroStrategy Partnership. Ferguson referred to the notes to the GERS numbers which say that, save for a few local revenues, “separate identification of most other revenues for Scotland is not possible. GERS therefore uses a number of different methodologies to apportion tax revenues to Scotland. In doing so, there are often theoretical and practical challenges in determining an appropriate share to allocate to Scotland. In certain cases, a variety of alternative methodologies could be applied each leading to different estimates.” It is, said Ferguson, a “pretty blatant case of starting with the answer and working out the more granular line-by-line ‘estimates’ backwards.” Webb added, "No economic figures are entirely accurate but this is different: the basic revenue numbers are more or less guesswork, to which is added an so far entirely un-negotiated share of UK oil revenues. So there you go. I’m giving you one less thing to think about: you can now happily ignore all the financial arguments for a separate Scotland on the basis that no one knows what they actually are."


Deloitte said of GERS, "GERS data is produced for Scotland as part of the UK – it does not model scenarios for an independent Scotland in which the Scottish Government would be enabled to make its own fiscal choices". Professor Richard Murphy criticised the figures saying the figures were unreliable and liable to manipulation by the London based UK Government. The University of Strathclyde published a "A critique of GERS: government expenditure and revenue in Scotland." This critcised primarily the adequacy of the methodology used and the accuracy of data sources as well as the purpose of a GERS exercise.

[JeMeSouviens]

Ok, one bit at a time:


Scotland will inherit its share of the national debt. £150bn or thereabouts.

Some truth there. Scotland won't "inherit" anything. All debt remains with the successor state. Scotland may choose to agree to support some of that debt as part of a negotiation. However, also on the table will be assets, eg. Scotland would like a share of the BoE's foreign currency reserve and (what Gordon Brown left) of the gold. Scotland probably doesn't want 8% of trident subs or aircraft carriers. so just knock those off the bill please. There is a ton of international law and precedent to follow in these situations. It will be followed.

TruthorBollocks indicator: it's a poorly explained half-truth.


Meanwhile the current Scotland budget deficit of 9% is three times higher than the European convergence criteria.

This is Maastricht criteria for joining the Eurozone. Nobody is proposing that. You need to go away and learn the difference between Maastricht criteria (joining the Eurozone) and Copenhagen criteria (joining the EU). Here are some handy links:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_criteria
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_convergence_criteria

TruthorBollocks indicator: it's true but completely irrelevant to the situation and therefore max bollocks I'm afraid.


This is certain to worsen after any aye2 vote succeeding as people and jobs will leave for south of the border and shrink tax revenues further.

Nothing is certain. Post Brexit UK could be a roaring success (and good luck to them).

TruthorBollocks indicator: 100% bollocks on this one.


New Prime Minister Sturgeon will need to find immediate cuts of over £10bn (although it will be in some unknown currency) to meet the Maastricht 3% deficit limit.

As already detailed: Maastricht criteria not relevant. 100% bollocks.


So once she's decimated public services, we can get our wee diddly no influence or power 6 MEP's back into Brussels and start paying them 1.5bn euro a year for the privilege.

Independent Scotland's representation in the EU parliament would more than double, comparable populations have 13:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/news-room/20130610IPR11414/elections-2014-share-out-of-meps'-seats-among-28-eu-countries

We would also have our own representation in the commission and council of ministers. We already contribute to the EU budget as part of the UK so your (made up) figure of 1.5Bn is not new money. For comparison, similar countries, Denmark & Finland pay around 800M euros net.

TruthorBollocks indicator: Not total bollocks but a very limited and misleading picture. I'd say 65% bollocks.


Meanwhile the 1m Scottish jobs that depend on our 68% trade with England are subject to tariffs.

It's difficult to argue with such a poorly constructed point.

TruthorBollocks indicator: unknown


So we leave a free of charge union with our ancient landlocked neighbour and start paying Juncker 1.5bn a year while starving ourselves to death to meet their criteria.

Merely a reiteration of the above expressed even more poorly. Crank up the bollocks with irrelevant waffle about "landlocked", personalisation of "Juncker" and hyperbole regarding "starving".

TruthorBollocks indicator: I'm going for 85% bollocks this time.


Not that we can borrow anyway with no central bank or rating.

Do many devolved regions have either? We will set up both within a year. It's been done before in much more challenging circumstances. Here's some more reading for you:

https://helda.helsinki.fi/bof/bitstream/handle/123456789/12997/0893SLPS.PDF?sequence=1

TruthorBollocks indicator: while it's true to say Scotland currently does not have its own currency or central bank, it's such a facile and misleading point that I'm afraid we've got 100% more bollocks on our hands. Sigh.


Lamb free coverage folks. Don't believe the lying SNP.

"Lamb free"? Ok then ... :confused:

I look forward to your reasoned, well thought out reply. :aok:

[lyonhibs]

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/these-spanish-politicians-say-spain-wont-stop-scotland-joini?utm_term=.mwQ7drzQW5#.edP5ZNeWXD

In the very same article it's admitted that a) they folk quoted aren't the decision makers and b) a real representative of the Spanish government said "Spain would examine the issue in the light of the EU treaties, bearing in mind the interest of the Union as a whole, the common values ​​that bind us all together … and the legitimate defence of the interests of Spain and its citizens.”

So it's kind of swings and roundabouts and it's quite a massive inponderable IMO. Being a member of the EU is personally more important to me than remaining part of Brexit Britain, but I think being an independent Scotland that's frozen out of the EU would be a hugely dangerous state of affairs.

[southfieldhibby]

The UK is part of the EU but i did read somewhere that we didn't meet the criteria as all new members must run a surplus in their economy. I might have been reading something that's not true right enough, ill need to look into it further.


In the very same article it's admitted that a) they folk quoted aren't the decision makers and b) a real representative of the Spanish government said "Spain would examine the issue in the light of the EU treaties, bearing in mind the interest of the Union as a whole, the common values ​​that bind us all together … and the legitimate defence of the interests of Spain and its citizens.”

So it's kind of swings and roundabouts and it's quite a massive inponderable IMO. Being a member of the EU is personally more important to me than remaining part of Brexit Britain, but I think being an independent Scotland that's frozen out of the EU would be a hugely dangerous state of affairs.

We're being gradually moved towards EEA membership, which wouldn't be the worst half way house. ECHR, Single market but agriculture and fisheries excluded and able to do a continuing deal with England on trade. Set up a currency, take 9% debt/assets and crack on.

[magpie1892]

You are the worst kind of British Nationalist. Arrogant and completely blinkered by the dream of a new British Empire.

Blimey. And people wonder why 'no' won last time...

[Moulin Yarns]

Does anyone know what will happen to the status of the Channel Islands and Isle of Man as a result of Brexit? If they maintain their current status is there any reason why Scotland cannot enjoy the same relationship with the EU, along with Mayotte?

Did the Channel Islands and Isle of Man have a vote on Brexit? Don't think so, so what happens to them?


It's OK, I do have the answers but it does through up some interesting questions.

[CropleyWasGod]

Does anyone know what will happen to the status of the Channel Islands and Isle of Man as a result of Brexit? If they maintain their current status is there any reason why Scotland cannot enjoy the same relationship with the EU, along with Mayotte?

Did the Channel Islands and Isle of Man have a vote on Brexit? Don't think so, so what happens to them?


It's OK, I do have the answers but it does through up some interesting questions.

Not being part of the UK, they are not currently in the EU, so I presume that their relationship with it would not alter.

(For clarification, Jersey and Guernsey are separate States from each other, and therefore shouldn't be lumped together as "the Channel Islands".)

[Moulin Yarns]

Not being part of the UK, they are not currently in the EU, so I presume that their relationship with it would not alter.

(For clarification, Jersey and Guernsey are separate States from each other, and therefore shouldn't be lumped together as "the Channel Islands".)


As crown dependencies the islands take part in the EU freedom of movement of goods but not labour, services or capital. They are outside the VAT area, but inside the customs union. There is also free movement of people as in the rest of Europe. A bit like Mayotte

[CropleyWasGod]

As crown dependencies the islands take part in the EU freedom of movement of goods but not labour, services or capital. They are outside the VAT area, but inside the customs union. There is also free movement of people as in the rest of Europe. A bit like Mayotte

...which begs a question.

If Indy happens, and we retain the Quoon as head of state, do they remain as dependencies of both countries?

[stantonhibby]

...which begs a question.

If Indy happens, and we retain the Quoon as head of state, do they remain as dependencies of both countries?

Is that a sort of meat free head of state ?

[Hibbyradge]

Is that a sort of meat free head of state ?

:not worth

[pacoluna]

If one partner in a Union refuses to allow another partner to have a say on its own future, it's not a Union. It's a colonist and a colony.

[hibs0666]

If one partner in a Union refuses to allow another partner to have a say on its own future, it's not a Union. It's a colonist and a colony.

It had a say on its own future already, and No prevailed.

[pacoluna]

It had a say on its own future already, and No prevailed.

Aye because the political landscape hasn't changed has it?

[ronaldo7]

Aye because the political landscape hasn't changed has it?

Imagine if we kept the same Hibs team we had back in 2014:wink:

[hibs0666]

Aye because the political landscape hasn't changed has it?

Aye, because the economic landscape hasn't changed has it? Remember when we were going to be rich rich rich with a booming oil industry?

[Colr]

...which begs a question.

If Indy happens, and we retain the Quoon as head of state, do they remain as dependencies of both countries?

An independent Scotland should not be comprise of subjects of the Queen.

They need to buy back Balmoral and Holyrood if they want to keep using them.

[Jack]

An independent Scotland should not be comprise of subjects of the Queen.

They need to buy back Balmoral and Holyrood if they want to keep using them.

Could we not let them though Airbnb and Liz can pay the going rate?

[marinello59]

An independent Scotland should not be comprise of subjects of the Queen.

They need to buy back Balmoral and Holyrood if they want to keep using them.

Balmoral was bought privately by the Royal family, it's never been owned by the state.

[snooky]

Balmoral was bought privately by the Royal family, it's never been owned by the state.

Are they paying their "two hooses tax"?

[JimBHibees]

One of the biggest hurdles will be the incredibly hostile press. Almost all the papers was it 31 out of 32 were campaigning for a no vote some more hysterical than others. Cutting through that allied to the less than balanced tv coverage will be a major factor IMO.

[Mr Grieves]

https://mobile.twitter.com/murrayf00te/status/84301724773615206

This, in the Daily Record today, is a fair assessment of the questions that need to be answered by the SNP. If you want undecideds to vote for Independence, every answer to these points have to stand up to scrutiny. There's no point, in those of us already voting yes, whinging about there being no plan for brexit.

[Hibrandenburg]

European petition to ask the EU parliament to guarantee Scotland's direct entry.

https://you.wemove.eu/campaigns/schottland-bleibt?utm_source=civimail-5792&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20170315#