IndyRef Voting Intention

[JeMeSouviens]

How will you vote and has it changed from last time?

[NAE NOOKIE]

Yes last time, yes this time and yes the time after that :greengrin

We're going to rebuild Hadrian's wall and Englands gonna pay for it :saltireflag

[hibs0666]

No. ****ing lunacy.

[makaveli1875]

Yes last time, yes this time and yes the time after that :greengrin

We're going to rebuild Hadrian's wall and Englands gonna pay for it :saltireflag

beauty , id like to see that on the side of a bus

[JackLadd]

No. ****ing lunacy.



^^^This with all bells and whistles. It would tear the country apart and plunge it into meltdown and ruin to break away now. If you care about Scotland, your future and your families health and well being, it should be an automatic No.

[Green Man]

^^^This with all bells and whistles. It would tear the country apart and plunge it into meltdown and ruin to break away now. If you care about Scotland, your future and your families health and well being, it should be an automatic No.

Why should it be?

[BroxburnHibee]

Yes then Yes now Yes 2 years from now.

Not convinced vote will go ahead though.

[DaveF]

Why should it be?

Because JackLadd says so, you kilt wearing, haggis munching, benefit scrounging, free college\prescription\bus pass, non Daily Mail reading idiot who does not understand that Engand pays for everything and we should all get back in our box.

:rolleyes:

[NAE NOOKIE]

^^^This with all bells and whistles. It would tear the country apart and plunge it into meltdown and ruin to break away now. If you care about Scotland, your future and your families health and well being, it should be an automatic No.

Like the last time I am willing to respect the views of folk on the other side of the debate ...... but I ignored pish like this the last time and will do so again :aok:

[JackLadd]

Why should it be?



9% current deficit to be funded (I assume) by immediate swingeing cuts to services and taxation rises (the end of the SNP bribes)
No currency or central bank, no ability to print money or issue bonds. If we managed to get a rating we can expect crippling interest.
Likely collapse of bailed out banks. Depositors will run to BOE to safeguard assets in sterling.
No current oil tax revenues.
Legacy debt repayments from our share of 1 trillion national debt to be added.
Skilled workers will leave to avoid tax hike and money will flow out of country.
EU entry must be unanimous in the council of ministers, Spain has veto.
If iScotland gets in Eu likely end up with a tariff border with England (68% of our trade is with England).
EU zone average unemployment is <10%, more than twice current level in Scotland.
No free travel to rest of UK.
EU would expect us to net contribute at least 1bn Euro, maybe more.

Is that enough for you why it should be an automatic No or do you want some more? It's Greece without the sun.

[JackLadd]

Like the last time I am willing to respect the views of folk on the other side of the debate ...... but I ignored pish like this the last time and will do so again :aok:


The below is real, not pish!


9% current deficit to be funded (I assume) by immediate swingeing cuts to services and taxation rises (the end of the SNP bribes)
No currency or central bank, no ability to print money or issue bonds. If we managed to get a rating we can expect crippling interest.
Likely collapse of bailed out banks. Depositors will run to BOE to safeguard assets in sterling.
No current oil tax revenues.
Legacy debt repayments from our share of 1 trillion national debt to be added.
Skilled workers will leave to avoid tax hike and money will flow out of country.
EU entry must be unanimous in the council of ministers, Spain has veto.
If iScotland gets in Eu likely end up with a tariff border with England (68% of our trade is with England).
EU zone average unemployment is <10%, more than twice current level in Scotland.
No free travel to rest of UK.
EU would expect us to net contribute at least 1bn Euro, maybe more.

[NAE NOOKIE]

9% current deficit to be funded (I assume) by immediate swingeing cuts to services and taxation rises (the end of the SNP bribes)
No currency or central bank, no ability to print money or issue bonds. If we managed to get a rating we can expect crippling interest.
Likely collapse of bailed out banks. Depositors will run to BOE to safeguard assets in sterling.
No current oil tax revenues.
Legacy debt repayments from our share of 1 trillion national debt to be added.
Skilled workers will leave to avoid tax hike and money will flow out of country.
EU entry must be unanimous in the council of ministers, Spain has veto.
If iScotland gets in Eu likely end up with a tariff border with England (68% of our trade is with England).
EU zone average unemployment is <10%, more than twice current level in Scotland.
No free travel to rest of UK.
EU would expect us to net contribute at least 1bn Euro, maybe more.

Is that enough for you why it should be an automatic No or do you want some more? It's Greece without the sun.

So basically after 300 years of the blessed union all Scotland has to show for it is a huge mountain of debt, in spite of discovering oil, no share in the central bank or its assets that we are supposed to partly own, no access to the currency we are supposed to be a partner in and a total inability to raise the capital required to create the reserves required to back up any Scottish currency. Tell me again how as a sovereign country in partnership with England Scotland has benefitted from this union again?

Sounds like something you would want to get out of as soon as possible before any more damage is done.

[SuperAllyMcleod]

9% current deficit to be funded (I assume) by immediate swingeing cuts to services and taxation rises (the end of the SNP bribes)
No currency or central bank, no ability to print money or issue bonds. If we managed to get a rating we can expect crippling interest.
Likely collapse of bailed out banks. Depositors will run to BOE to safeguard assets in sterling.
No current oil tax revenues.
Legacy debt repayments from our share of 1 trillion national debt to be added.
Skilled workers will leave to avoid tax hike and money will flow out of country.
EU entry must be unanimous in the council of ministers, Spain has veto.
If iScotland gets in Eu likely end up with a tariff border with England (68% of our trade is with England).
EU zone average unemployment is <10%, more than twice current level in Scotland.
No free travel to rest of UK.
EU would expect us to net contribute at least 1bn Euro, maybe more.

Is that enough for you why it should be an automatic No or do you want some more? It's Greece without the sun.

Apart from that, what have the Romans ever done for us? [emoji3]

[JackLadd]

So basically after 300 years of the blessed union all Scotland has to show for it is a huge mountain of debt, in spite of discovering oil, no share in the central bank or its assets that we are supposed to partly own, no access to the currency we are supposed to be a partner in and a total inability to raise the capital required to create the reserves required to back up any Scottish currency. Tell me again how as a sovereign country in partnership with England Scotland has benefitted from this union again?

Sounds like something you would want to get out of as soon as possible before any more damage is done.



You're 50 years too late to benefit from the oil as Norway did. The damage done by breaking away in the current economic and political climate would take several generations of Scots suffering to overcome. The points I listed prove that. And as said, I've no emotional or political attachment to the Union, it's purely a practical one. I'd also add, an iScotland would be handing over the finance of the nation to the establishment that gave £1bn to David Murray to sp unk on Glasgow Rangers and his failed businesses. That's who would be running the show, not Sturgeon. A cabal of masonic public school crooks.

[bigwheel]

The below is real, not pish!


9% current deficit to be funded (I assume) by immediate swingeing cuts to services and taxation rises (the end of the SNP bribes)
No currency or central bank, no ability to print money or issue bonds. If we managed to get a rating we can expect crippling interest.
Likely collapse of bailed out banks. Depositors will run to BOE to safeguard assets in sterling.
No current oil tax revenues.
Legacy debt repayments from our share of 1 trillion national debt to be added.
Skilled workers will leave to avoid tax hike and money will flow out of country.
EU entry must be unanimous in the council of ministers, Spain has veto.
If iScotland gets in Eu likely end up with a tariff border with England (68% of our trade is with England).
EU zone average unemployment is <10%, more than twice current level in Scotland.
No free travel to rest of UK.
EU would expect us to net contribute at least 1bn Euro, maybe more.

There could be an equally devastating list of the UK and Scotland post Brexit...

Frankly, you have no idea of the opportunities and risks for Scotland post Brexit in the UK, nor the opportunity within an EU market post independence. You are simply ranting ...



Anyway bang on - it's like an upset kid in an empty room ...

[JackLadd]

There could be an equally devastating list of the UK and Scotland post Brexit...

Frankly, you have no idea of the opportunities and risks for Scotland post Brexit in the UK, nor the opportunity within an EU market post independence. You are simply ranting ...



Anyway bang on - it's like an upset kid in an empty room ...




A nat playing the man and not the ball again. I can see exactly what an iScotland in the EU would look like. Or do you think Greece and Finland are some kind of aberrations? Or would you prefer I use the Netherlands, that most liberal of countries about to elect a far right nutter because they love the EU so much.

[JeMeSouviens]

A nat playing the man and not the ball again. I can see exactly what an iScotland in the EU would look like. Or do you think Greece and Finland are some kind of aberrations? Or would you prefer I use the Netherlands, that most liberal of countries about to elect a far right nutter because they love the EU so much.

Wilders' PVV is polling in the low 20s, not even the largest party and all other parties have said they won't go into coalition with him.

Apart from that, you're 100% spot on. :rolleyes:

[bigwheel]

A nat playing the man and not the ball again. I can see exactly what an iScotland in the EU would look like. Or do you think Greece and Finland are some kind of aberrations? Or would you prefer I use the Netherlands, that most liberal of countries about to elect a far right nutter because they love the EU so much.

Well as I spend a good chunk of my business each month in Europe, and often in The Hague , your one dimensional simplistic cultural understanding of the Netherlands tells me your neither playing the ball or the man. Keep sitting on the bench wishing you could get a game ...

[ronaldo7]

The below is real, not pish!


9% current deficit to be funded (I assume) by immediate swingeing cuts to services and taxation rises (the end of the SNP bribes)
No currency or central bank, no ability to print money or issue bonds. If we managed to get a rating we can expect crippling interest.
Likely collapse of bailed out banks. Depositors will run to BOE to safeguard assets in sterling.
No current oil tax revenues.
Legacy debt repayments from our share of 1 trillion national debt to be added.
Skilled workers will leave to avoid tax hike and money will flow out of country.
EU entry must be unanimous in the council of ministers, Spain has veto.
If iScotland gets in Eu likely end up with a tariff border with England (68% of our trade is with England).
EU zone average unemployment is <10%, more than twice current level in Scotland.
No free travel to rest of UK.
EU would expect us to net contribute at least 1bn Euro, maybe more.

Did you work in the EU Referendum for the Leave campaign?

[Pretty Boy]

Undecided.

Hopefully the Yes campaign have a better idea about how to win hearts and minds than some posters on here on the other thread though.

[Hiber-nation]

A nat playing the man and not the ball again. I can see exactly what an iScotland in the EU would look like. Or do you think Greece and Finland are some kind of aberrations? Or would you prefer I use the Netherlands, that most liberal of countries about to elect a far right nutter because they love the EU so much.

I thought you said you were staying out of this and concentrating on Hibs?

You remind me of someone who used to post on here, can't remember the username though.

[Jack]

The below is real, not pish!


9% current deficit to be funded (I assume) by immediate swingeing cuts to services and taxation rises (the end of the SNP bribes)
No currency or central bank, no ability to print money or issue bonds. If we managed to get a rating we can expect crippling interest.
Likely collapse of bailed out banks. Depositors will run to BOE to safeguard assets in sterling.
No current oil tax revenues.
Legacy debt repayments from our share of 1 trillion national debt to be added.
Skilled workers will leave to avoid tax hike and money will flow out of country.
EU entry must be unanimous in the council of ministers, Spain has veto.
If iScotland gets in Eu likely end up with a tariff border with England (68% of our trade is with England).
EU zone average unemployment is <10%, more than twice current level in Scotland.
No free travel to rest of UK.
EU would expect us to net contribute at least 1bn Euro, maybe more.

Some of it is at best made up, or at least misinformed.

Go back and check your facts. I'll not tell you where you are mistaken but there will be many on here that will know and that won't be from any independence expertise.

[CapitalGreen]

A nat playing the man and not the ball again. I can see exactly what an iScotland in the EU would look like. Or do you think Greece and Finland are some kind of aberrations? Or would you prefer I use the Netherlands, that most liberal of countries about to elect a far right nutter because they love the EU so much.

You're a hypocrite.

[Hibernia&Alba]

There's a long way to go, but I think my vote will be switching from a No to a Yes. The situation has fundamentally changed with Brexit.

[Sir David Gray]

No the first time and almost certainly no again for the next time.

I suspect it won't really matter though as the SNP will just keep at it until they finally get their own way.

[Benny Brazil]

No last time and no again this time.

[G B Young]

I remain hopeful it won't actually happen as it steadily becomes clear to even the most rabid nationalist that Brexit isn't shaping up as the nightmare for Scotland the SNP would have us believe in order to railroad through their one-dimensional vision.

However, if we do end up facing another horribly divisive couple of years so soon after this issue was supposedly put to bed for a generation then my vote will once again be a resounding no. I voted for devolution because I can see the logistical sense of a devolved assembly, but the independence referendum wasn't needed in 2014 and it's even less required now. In fact in such divisive times it's hard to think of something our country needs less. Irresponsible and immature politics from the SNP.

[Moulin Yarns]

I thought you said you were staying out of this and concentrating on Hibs?

You remind me of someone who used to post on here, can't remember the username though.

I had the same thought

[Golden Bear]

The constituency I live in is likely to vote 70% in favour of remaining in the UK.
By the gnats thinking, I hope that will give us the right of self determination and we can indeed remain to be Brits.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The constituency I live in is likely to vote 70% in favour of remaining in the UK.
By the gnats thinking, I hope that will give us the right of self determination and we can indeed remain to be Brits.

Larkhall?

[Golden Bear]

Larkhall?

Ha ha. Keep guessing!

[Hibernia&Alba]

Ha ha. Keep guessing!

Has to be Broxburn then :greengrin

[YehButNoBut]

Yes before & Yes again.

Welcome the chance to get rid of this horrid Tory government who (due to the state of the Labour who again are saying the same things as the Tories re independence) look like they will be running this country for some time.

Do we seriously want to be run by this lot for the foreseeable, let's hope enough people go for it this time.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Has to be Broxburn then :greengrin

Hoi you

[Hibernia&Alba]

Hoi you

Come on, Broxburn is mair Orange than Donald Trump :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

Didn't have the vote last time and probably won't have it this time either. Ironically I'm amongst a group of people who has the most to lose from the UK's contemporary political upheaval.

[The Tubs]

I don't have a vote as being a non-resident I am rightly not entitled.

However, seeing as I am effectively barred from ever returning to live in Scotland due to my wife's nationality, I hope that the voters will see fit to choosing a more humane way of governing the country than Westminster will ever grant us.

[greenlex]

We are governed in his country by an unelected party that itself has an unelected leader who is hell bent dragging us out of the EU as disasterously as it can. That government don't even want our elected representatives to have a say on the finalised deal or any part if the UK fir that matter. They are rushing into some sort of British Imperialustc inward looking little empire. I'm not sure I ideally want to be part if that. I think an independence referendum this close after the last one. (I'm not sure why they are called one and two) is far from ideal. Unfortunately I see no other alternative to try and get us out of this mess we are heading into. So it was a yes in 79 a yes the last time and it will be a yes next time. Don't mind being part of the Euro to be honest the pound has lost its shine in any case and can only plummet further.
One other thing getting in my tits. Mrs May lecturing about politics not being a game. Boris ****ing Johnston as Foreign Secretary. The ******** lunatic that drove this Brexit alongside Farage the racist and she's lecturing about seriousness!!!!!! Give me ****ing strength.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Come on, Broxburn is mair Orange than Donald Trump :greengrin

I can't really disagree 😁

[Speedy]

The constituency I live in is likely to vote 70% in favour of remaining in the UK.
By the gnats thinking, I hope that will give us the right of self determination and we can indeed remain to be Brits.

Stuff like this doesn't help. It's a shame people can't debate what is best for our country without resorting to petty name calling.

[Slavers]

The constituency I live in is likely to vote 70% in favour of remaining in the UK.
By the gnats thinking, I hope that will give us the right of self determination and we can indeed remain to be Brits.

I would like to see the parts of Scotland that decide to vote to remain part of the UK should be allowed to do so.

Edinburgh and the boarders remain part of the UK and or any other areas that have high percentage of a remain uk vote.

[makaveli1875]

I would like to see the parts of Scotland that decide to vote to remain part of the UK should be allowed to do so.

Edinburgh and the boarders remain part of the UK and or any other areas that have high percentage of a remain uk vote.

thats a very good point

if edinburgh again votes overwhelmingly to remain in the uk , and the rest of scotland votes out . edinburgh will be dragged out of the uk against its will

do we then have another referendum for edinburgh to rejoin the UK , or an independant edinburgh

[CropleyWasGod]

thats a very good point

if edinburgh again votes overwhelmingly to remain in the uk , and the rest of scotland votes out . edinburgh will be dragged out of the uk against its will

do we then have another referendum for edinburgh to rejoin the UK , or an independant edinburgh
Can we extend that to individual constituencies?

Or streets?

Or households?

🙄

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Slavers]

Can we extend that to individual constituencies?

Or streets?

Or households?

🙄

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

It could be workable. Would you agree to this idea or do you want people taken out the UK against their will?

[easty]

It could be workable. Would you agree to this idea or do you want people taken out the UK against their will?

I want people taken out of the UK against their will

[Slavers]

I want people taken out of the UK against their will

Do you support the SNP? Would you agree that it's hypocritical wanting of to take Scots out the UK against their will but in the next breath the SNP complain about Scots being taken out the EU against their will?

[CropleyWasGod]

It could be workable. Would you agree to this idea or do you want people taken out the UK against their will?
Workable?

Seriously? Passports to go from house to house?

I am being taken out of the EU against my will. However, I have to accept it as that's the democratic will of the electorate who took part in the vote. The same principle would apply.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[makaveli1875]

who would vote for an independant scotland with glasgow as its capital while edinburgh and the borders remain in the UK

[PeeJay]

Yes last time, yes this time and yes the time after that :greengrin

We're going to rebuild Hadrian's wall and Englands gonna pay for it :saltireflag


To keep the Scottish and "others" in Scotland, perhaps?? :rolleyes:

[Moulin Yarns]

Workable?

Seriously? Passports to go from house to house?

I am being taken out of the EU against my will. However, I have to accept it as that's the democratic will of the electorate who took part in the vote. The same principle would apply.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

Border control at my gate will involve full body searches. That will stop the Jehova Witnesses :wink:

[easty]

who would vote for an independant scotland with glasgow as its capital while edinburgh and the borders remain in the UK

If we're dealing in make believe then can we vote for David Coulthard as Preident of this Scotland too?

[Slavers]

Workable?

Seriously? Passports to go from house to house?

I am being taken out of the EU against my will. However, I have to accept it as that's the democratic will of the electorate who took part in the vote. The same principle would apply.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

Sorry I did not mean house to house. I mean areas such as edinburgh and lothians if they had a massive remain uk vote? It could be workable that they remain part of the UK? Would you agree with that?

[easty]

Do you support the SNP? Would you agree that it's hypocritical wanting of to take Scots out the UK against their will but in the next breath the SNP complain about Scots being taken out the EU against their will?

I don't support any political party, I vote based on what they're offering me.

The SNP aren't going to take Scots out the UK against their will. They'll take us out the UK if we vote for it.

Scotland is its own country. It's not just north England. The country of Scotland did not want to leave the EU, but that was ignored.

What don't you get about that?

[makaveli1875]

If we're dealing in make believe then can we vote for David Coulthard as Preident of this Scotland too?

Sir david gray with andy murray as vice president

[CropleyWasGod]

Sorry I did not mean house to house. I mean areas such as edinburgh and lothians if they had a massive remain uk vote? It could be workable that they remain part of the UK? Would you agree with that?
Not in the slightest.

Edinburgh and the borders are not sovereign countries. Scotland is.



Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Slavers]

I don't support any political party, I vote based on what they're offering me.

The SNP aren't going to take Scots out the UK against their will. They'll take us out the UK if we vote for it.

Scotland is its own country. It's not just north England. The country of Scotland did not want to leave the EU, but that was ignored.

What don't you get about that?

I think it's you that is missing the point. Scotland did not have a membership of the EU the UK did, the UK voted to leave so we are.

But Nicola thinks that one part of the UK should have a special deal and remain within the EU. All I am saying is that Scotland in regards to Independence should be offered the same deal. If a part of Scotland overwhelmingly votes to remain part of the UK then it should not be dragged out the UK against it's will or at the least be allowed a vote on the matter in a referendum.

Why not?

[makaveli1875]

Not in the slightest.

Edinburgh and the borders are not sovereign countries. Scotland is.



Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

the only sovereign country in the british isles is the Republic of Ireland . Scotland , Wales and england are not sovereign countries or states

[JeMeSouviens]

the only sovereign country in the british isles is the Republic of Ireland . Scotland , Wales and england are not sovereign countries or states

Presumably you would include the UK as a sovereign country in the British Isles, no?

btw, although I sort of agree with you, it is probably worth pointing out that nearly all of Scottish politics (even most of the Unionist bits) disagrees:



We, gathered as the Scottish Constitutional Convention, do hereby acknowledge the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of Government best suited to their needs, and do hereby declare and pledge that in all our actions and deliberations their interests shall be paramount.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claim_of_Right_1989

[easty]

I think it's you that is missing the point. Scotland did not have a membership of the EU the UK did, the UK voted to leave so we are.

But Nicola thinks that one part of the UK should have a special deal and remain within the EU. All I am saying is that Scotland in regards to Independence should be offered the same deal. If a part of Scotland overwhelmingly votes to remain part of the UK then it should not be dragged out the UK against it's will or at the least be allowed a vote on the matter in a referendum.

Why not?

Is Scotland a country? Is Scotland currently in the EU? Did the people of the Scotland vote to remain in the EU?

They're rhetorical questions.

As for parts of Scotland having their own referendums. The answer is obviously, no.

[ekhibee]

We are governed in his country by an unelected party that itself has an unelected leader who is hell bent dragging us out of the EU as disasterously as it can. That government don't even want our elected representatives to have a say on the finalised deal or any part if the UK fir that matter. They are rushing into some sort of British Imperialustc inward looking little empire. I'm not sure I ideally want to be part if that. I think an independence referendum this close after the last one. (I'm not sure why they are called one and two) is far from ideal. Unfortunately I see no other alternative to try and get us out of this mess we are heading into. So it was a yes in 79 a yes the last time and it will be a yes next time. Don't mind being part of the Euro to be honest the pound has lost its shine in any case and can only plummet further.
One other thing getting in my tits. Mrs May lecturing about politics not being a game. Boris ****ing Johnston as Foreign Secretary. The ******** lunatic that drove this Brexit alongside Farage the racist and she's lecturing about seriousness!!!!!! Give me ****ing strength.
Well said GL, totally agree with every word.

[northstandhibby]

Is Scotland a country? Is Scotland currently in the EU? Did the people of the Scotland vote to remain in the EU?

They're rhetorical questions.

As for parts of Scotland having their own referendums. The answer is obviously, no.

It was a UK question only. Very similar to a general election that certain areas may vote against the majority but have to accept the overall result. Its irrelevant the area of Scotland voted against the overall result as it was a UK referendum but leaving the EU is a huge shift granted and could be considered as reasonable grounds for indy ref 2 by some certainly.

glory glory

[JeMeSouviens]

Interestingly very few switchers so far, and more (ok, 1 more) Y->N than N->Y. No encouragement for Y here.

[Slavers]

Is Scotland a country? Is Scotland currently in the EU? Did the people of the Scotland vote to remain in the EU?

They're rhetorical questions.

As for parts of Scotland having their own referendums. The answer is obviously, no.

Ok fair enough, it's just an idea I have and I think it's one that could gather some support come referendum time. It's maybe too radical for some Scottish nationalists that parts of Scotland could remain in the UK after an independence vote but I don't see why not. These are times where everything should be on the table.

I do think if areas of Scotland that say have 70+% remain UK then they should be allowed a vote to stay part of the UK. If not then we really will have a very bitter and divided nation far more than it is just now.

It could be a workable solution and as Nicola Sturgeon has said every option should be on the table and looked at properly.

[easty]

It was a UK question only. Very similar to a general election that certain areas may vote against the majority but have to accept the overall result. Its irrelevant the area of Scotland voted against the overall result as it was a UK referendum but leaving the EU is a huge shift granted and could be considered as reasonable grounds for indy ref 2 by some certainly.

glory glory

It doesn't matter if it was a UK question. The voting figures are available, and show that the people of Scotland did not want to leave the EU.

It is very similar to a general election, I agree, and what Scotland voted for on that front is completely ignored too.

[northstandhibby]

It doesn't matter if it was a UK question. The voting figures are available, and show that the people of Scotland did not want to leave the EU.

It is very similar to a general election, I agree, and what Scotland voted for on that front is completely ignored too.

How did it not matter it was a UK wide referendum to be accepted by the UK and all of its parts?

Scotland is part of the UK and should accept a UK wide referendum result irrespective of how certain parts of the UK voted. How do you think the EU works?

If there was an EU wide vote on trading agreements with a majority required and Scotland when joined as a full independent member as part of the EU voted against the overall majority do you think it would then have a referendum to leave the EU?

It was a UK wide referendum and of course that matters.

However, brexiting from the EU with the hard brexit that is coming I believe Scotland does have grounds to revisit its relationship with the UK. A soft Norway style brexit would have countered these grounds however that is the unfortunate circumstances.

glory glory

[hibby rae]

Interestingly very few switchers so far, and more (ok, 1 more) Y->N than N->Y. No encouragement for Y here.

I'd be interested to hear the reasoning behind those that intend to switch, particularly the Yes to No votes. I've met a few folk who voted No last time and will definitely be voting Yes, or are strongly considering to do so, but haven't met anyone where the reverse is true.

Although the result here would imply Yes still have a lot of work to do, that's no surprise really. It's worth remembering how much ground they were able to gain in the last campaign, and if we use the last result as a starting block then they only need to gain 2.6 per cent more backing in the country.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think it's you that is missing the point. Scotland did not have a membership of the EU the UK did, the UK voted to leave so we are.

But Nicola thinks that one part of the UK should have a special deal and remain within the EU. All I am saying is that Scotland in regards to Independence should be offered the same deal. If a part of Scotland overwhelmingly votes to remain part of the UK then it should not be dragged out the UK against it's will or at the least be allowed a vote on the matter in a referendum.

Why not?

Nicola thinks that Scotland should be an independent sovereign country, but she has offered a compromise that would see Scotland stay in the UK if it is allowed to stay in the EU trading union. That has been rejected by the UK government so Indy 2 it is. Edinburgh is not a sovereign country.

[pacoluna]

The below is real, not pish!


9% current deficit to be funded (I assume) by immediate swingeing cuts to services and taxation rises (the end of the SNP bribes)
No currency or central bank, no ability to print money or issue bonds. If we managed to get a rating we can expect crippling interest.
Likely collapse of bailed out banks. Depositors will run to BOE to safeguard assets in sterling.
No current oil tax revenues.
Legacy debt repayments from our share of 1 trillion national debt to be added.
Skilled workers will leave to avoid tax hike and money will flow out of country.
EU entry must be unanimous in the council of ministers, Spain has veto.
If iScotland gets in Eu likely end up with a tariff border with England (68% of our trade is with England).
EU zone average unemployment is <10%, more than twice current level in Scotland.
No free travel to rest of UK.
EU would expect us to net contribute at least 1bn Euro, maybe more.
Jackladd is a serial copy and paster I see.

[JackLadd]

Jackladd is a serial copy and paster I see.


Copy and pasted from where? Another false assertion. Try and refute one line of it.

[Slavers]

Nicola thinks that Scotland should be an independent sovereign country, but she has offered a compromise that would see Scotland stay in the UK if it is allowed to stay in the EU trading union. That has been rejected by the UK government so Indy 2 it is. Edinburgh is not a sovereign country.


If areas inScotland that vote 70+% to remain within the UK are not listened to then I’dsay its's going to be a horrible time to live in Scotland. We have come a longway in my time in living in Scotland a lot of the old prejudices being leftbehind in the past but now I think they will appear once again. I don’t justmean angry Brit Nats but the English hating element of the Scottish Nationalistswill all be shouting loudest.

[Moulin Yarns]

Copy and pasted from where? Another false assertion. Try and refute one line of it.

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?319799-IndyRef-Voting-Intention&p=4977752&viewfull=1#post4977752

two consecutive posts 8 minutes apart with the same real pish!! :wink:

[JackLadd]

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?319799-IndyRef-Voting-Intention&p=4977752&viewfull=1#post4977752

two consecutive posts 8 minutes apart with the same real pish!! :wink:



Same incontrovertible hard facts, dude. Each one a coffin nail for Sturgeon and her lucky white heather fan club.

:agree:

[ekhibee]

If areas inScotland that vote 70+% to remain within the UK are not listened to then I’dsay its's going to be a horrible time to live in Scotland. We have come a longway in my time in living in Scotland a lot of the old prejudices being leftbehind in the past but now I think they will appear once again. I don’t justmean angry Brit Nats but the English hating element of the Scottish Nationalistswill all be shouting loudest.

I would hope you're wrong HT, I'm not voting Yes because I hate or dislike English people and neither are any of my family or friends that also will be voting the same way. I have a lot of respect for England, and it's history, and I also have relatives who live there (they were born in Scotland). The problem I have is with the media such as the BBC who will focus on as many negative aspects of nationalism as they can, just as they did at the last referendum, and then edit out anything worthwhile that the SNP have to say. As an example, I watched a press conference with Alex Salmond where he was asked a question by the BBC's political correspondent during the last referendum. He gave a detailed answer, but when it was shown on the national BBC News it had been edited out of all recognition, totally distorted. Of course, English people seeing the 'abridged version' were going to draw negative conclusions from that, and the BBC were doing that kind of thing regularly. The BBC have their own agenda, and they're a long, long way from being impartial. You just need to look at the Scottish people they use to present political matters, Andrew Neil, an out and out Tory, Laura Kuenssberg, another Tory, and Kirsty Wark who conducted a notoriously sneering interview with Salmond. I will be voting Yes this time as well, but I would be surprised if the media change their approach this time round.

[JeMeSouviens]

If areas inScotland that vote 70+% to remain within the UK are not listened to then I’dsay its's going to be a horrible time to live in Scotland. We have come a longway in my time in living in Scotland a lot of the old prejudices being leftbehind in the past but now I think they will appear once again. I don’t justmean angry Brit Nats but the English hating element of the Scottish Nationalistswill all be shouting loudest.


England will be happier without us. Some of them already feel like that and while I think there is a certain amount of knee jerk belittling of Scottish independence because some of them feel a bit spurned, once they get over that they'll be fine. Scottish independence is a win-win.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Yes is a no brainer for me.

Choice of sticking with an Imperialistic right-wing Tory government leading us towards their wet dream of becoming a tax haven or choosing to forge our own path as an independent nation and retaining an outward looking European identity.

A yes or no vote will both have massive consequences - Brexit guarantees that whatever path we choose there will be bumps along the way.

During the last referendum the No campaign bleated on constantly about the threat of banks/financial institutions relocating to London if we voted Yes. Surely now the converse is true, if we vote for Independence within the EU banks/financial institutions (that are already looking at relocating from London) will want to operate from within the single market and that presents a massive opportunity for Scotland.

I also accept that 4x as much of our trade is with England than the EU, but if we chose to adopt the Euro as our currency it puts us in a reasonably strong starting position due to the weak pound.

Surely the thought of being stuck with a Tory government (that is using EU citizens living and working alongside us as bargaining chips) for the forseeable future is enough to convince people to vote yes?!

[Slavers]

England will be happier without us. Some of them already feel like that and while I think there is a certain amount of knee jerk belittling of Scottish independence because some of them feel a bit spurned, once they get over that they'll be fine. Scottish independence is a win-win.

I'm talking of the divisions of the people of Scotland if Nicola Sturgeon ignores the large parts of Scotland that vote 70+% to remain part of the UK as per the last referendum. I don't see how you can say that situation is win win. It would be unacceptable to many to be removed from the UK against their will.

[PeeJay]

Yes is a no brainer for me.

Choice of sticking with an Imperialistic right-wing Tory government leading us towards their wet dream of becoming a tax haven or choosing to forge our own path as an independent nation and retaining an outward looking European identity.

A yes or no vote will both have massive consequences - Brexit guarantees that whatever path we choose there will be bumps along the way.

During the last referendum the No campaign bleated on constantly about the threat of banks/financial institutions relocating to London if we voted Yes. Surely now the converse is true, if we vote for Independence within the EU banks/financial institutions (that are already looking at relocating from London) will want to operate from within the single market and that presents a massive opportunity for Scotland.

I also accept that 4x as much of our trade is with England than the EU, but if we chose to adopt the Euro as our currency it puts us in a reasonably strong starting position due to the weak pound.

Surely the thought of being stuck with a Tory government (that is using EU citizens living and working alongside us as bargaining chips) for the forseeable future is enough to convince people to vote yes?!

Scotland cannot choose to adopt the euro - there are specific requirements for being accepted into the euro club - Scotland meets none of them and will not do so any time soon.

[CapitalGreen]

I'm talking of the divisions of the people of Scotland if Nicola Sturgeon ignores the large parts of Scotland that vote 70+% to remain part of the UK as per the last referendum. I don't see how you can say that situation is win win. It would be unacceptable to many to be removed from the UK against their will.

It's not binary though is it. Someone voting No is voting for the whole of Scotland to remain part of the UK. They would not necessarily then vote in favour of breaking off from the rest of Scotland to rejoin the UK.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm talking of the divisions of the people of Scotland if Nicola Sturgeon ignores the large parts of Scotland that vote 70+% to remain part of the UK as per the last referendum. I don't see how you can say that situation is win win. It would be unacceptable to many to be removed from the UK against their will.

Well, it's a free country (and iScotland would be too, no matter what the hysterical end of Unionism would tell you). The borders of Scotland as a former country and participant in the treaty of Union are well known and recognised but if you can build a movement in part of Scotland to secede and rejoin the UK post-independence and you can secure the support of the military power of the UK, I'd say you'd have a genuine chance of success. It worked for Russia in the Crimea after all.

[Slavers]

It's not binary though is it. Someone voting No is voting for the whole of Scotland to remain part of the UK. They would not necessarily then vote in favour of breaking off from the rest of Scotland to rejoin the UK.

But maybe there is an option to remain both. Still be a part of iScotland but still remain part of the UK. Along the same lines of what Nicola Sturgeon was proposing for Scotlands relationship with the EU and the UK. If she thought it would work with Scotland and the EU then why not Scotland and the UK?

[Peevemor]

Didn't have the vote last time and probably won't have it this time either. Ironically I'm amongst a group of people who has the most to lose from the UK's contemporary political upheaval.

Ditto.

I may have to become French - something I'm not and have always insisted I'll never be.

[Slavers]

Well, it's a free country (and iScotland would be too, no matter what the hysterical end of Unionism would tell you). The borders of Scotland as a former country and participant in the treaty of Union are well known and recognised but if you can build a movement in part of Scotland to secede and rejoin the UK post-independence and you can secure the support of the military power of the UK, I'd say you'd have a genuine chance of success. It worked for Russia in the Crimea after all.

I think it could work and I don't see why not. I mean borders can be changed and as I keep saying a 70+ remain vote for the UK I think people would go for it when given the choice.

[Moulin Yarns]

Same incontrovertible hard facts, dude. Each one a coffin nail for Sturgeon and her lucky white heather fan club.

:agree:

Can I point out I am not a member of the club you seem to think I am. :agree:

And when I see fiction dressed up as facts I tend to ignore them. it is the norm to provide evidence, and not just cut and paste the same drivel in the mistaken belief that if you say it often enough people ill begin to trust them.

[SHODAN]

Yes but not that bothered about the result in 2014, Yes or bust this time.

[Jack]

Ok fair enough, it's just an idea I have and I think it's one that could gather some support come referendum time. It's maybe too radical for some Scottish nationalists that parts of Scotland could remain in the UK after an independence vote but I don't see why not. These are times where everything should be on the table.

I do think if areas of Scotland that say have 70+% remain UK then they should be allowed a vote to stay part of the UK. If not then we really will have a very bitter and divided nation far more than it is just now.

It could be a workable solution and as Nicola Sturgeon has said every option should be on the table and looked at properly.

The simple solution would be for those that wish it to be given dual nationality.

[Slavers]

The simple solution would be for those that wish it to be given dual nationality.

That would be simple but what about the areas, businesses and people who don't want governed by high tax Scotland? They want to keep the relatively low tax rates of the UK compared with iScotland.

[Peevemor]

That would be simple but what about the areas, businesses and people who don't want governed by high tax Scotland? They want to keep the relatively low tax rates of the UK compared with iScotland.

Because iScotland is automatically going to be high tax?

[cabbageandribs1875]

That would be simple but what about the areas, businesses and people who don't want governed by high tax Scotland? They want to keep the relatively low tax rates of the UK compared with iScotland.



how on earth can you possibly know what any tax rates would be like in an independent scotland, seriously

[makaveli1875]

how on earth can you possibly know what any tax rates would be like in an independent scotland, seriously

we dont even know what currency we will be paying our taxes in , never mind what the rates will be

[cabbageandribs1875]

we dont even know what currency we will be paying our taxes in , never mind what the rates will be


well according to the poster known as 'jacktherudeladd' it would be Groats.....or sommit :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

That would be simple but what about the areas, businesses and people who don't want governed by high tax Scotland? They want to keep the relatively low tax rates of the UK compared with iScotland.
This despite the suggestion in the last debate that corporate tax rates would be as much as 3% lower in Scotland than the UK?

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Slavers]

how on earth can you possibly know what any tax rates would be like in an independent scotland, seriously

Yeah I'm guessing but the whole debate is guessing at this stage. Simply there needs to be higher tax or how does I Scotland pay for itself?

[Slavers]

This despite the suggestion in the last debate that corporate tax rates would be as much as 3% lower in Scotland than the UK?

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

OK if not higher corporate tax it would instead be much higher income tax?

[ronaldo7]

Yeah I'm guessing but the whole debate is guessing at this stage. Simply there needs to be higher tax or how does I Scotland pay for itself?

Groats apparently. :aok:

[CropleyWasGod]

Yeah I'm guessing but the whole debate is guessing at this stage. Simply there needs to be higher tax or how does I Scotland pay for itself?
Lower tax rates attract investment. Investment attracts jobs. Jobs bring PAYE and spending. Spending brings VAT ....and more jobs.

Set that against the background of a UK that's not in the EU, and the potential is clear.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Slavers]

Lower tax rates attract investment. Investment attracts jobs. Jobs bring PAYE and spending. Spending brings VAT ....and more jobs.

Set that against the background of a UK that's not in the EU, and the potential is clear.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

Sounds like a plan for sure but is this not the low tax haven for the rich, multinationals and big business that a lot of people on here were criticising the UK government when it suggested cutting taxes to compete with the EU?

[CropleyWasGod]

Sounds like a plan for sure but is this not the low tax haven for the rich, multinationals and big business that a lot of people on here were criticising the UK government when it suggested cutting taxes to compete with the EU?
No. It's a sound economic strategy for attracting jobs and investment.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Slavers]

No. It's a sound economic strategy for attracting jobs and investment.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

Sure i agree but it is not the same strategy the UK government were being criticised for introducing post brexit?

[NAE NOOKIE]

well according to the poster known as 'jacktherudeladd' it would be Groats.....or sommit :greengrin

The unit of currency will be the 'Groat' ...... or it could be the 'Bawbee' :greengrin

[High-On-Hibs]

Why do unionists keep bringing up Scotlands "deficit"?

Scotland doesn't have a deficit, it's a UK deficit along with UK debt. Scotland has zero legal liability over this debt and could walk away from it without breaking any laws whatsoever.

I'm not saying it would be morally correct to do so. But it puts Scotland in a far more powerful bargaining position than unionists care to admit to themselves.

[CropleyWasGod]

Sure i agree but it is not the same strategy the UK government were being criticised for introducing post brexit?
It may be, but not by me 😊

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Slavers]

Why do unionists keep bringing up Scotlands "deficit"?

Scotland doesn't have a deficit, it's a UK deficit along with UK debt. Scotland has zero legal liability over this debt and could walk away from it without breaking any laws whatsoever.

I'm not saying it would be morally correct to do so. But it puts Scotland in a far more powerful bargaining position than unionists care to admit to themselves.

It's not the best way to get international confidence in iScotland Plc but it might work.

[High-On-Hibs]

It's not the best way to get international confidence in iScotland Plc but it might work.

I don't think the rest of the world would care all that much to be honest. I think they're getting just as fed up with them as we are. :wink:

[cabbageandribs1875]

The unit of currency will be the 'Groat' ...... or it could be the 'Bawbee' :greengrin




Groat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groat_(coin)) – Silver, equivalent to four pence, from 1357 (giving rise to the term groatland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groatland))



a wee skipping rhyme for a Bawbee

Ma Mam sez that Ah maun go
Wi ma Daddy's denner-o
Chappit tatties, beef an steak
Twa reid herrin an a bawbee cake


a bawbee(for the uninitiated like me) was a scottish halfpenny from 1537 = six pence scots



the bawbee could be a goer, if JacktheLadd agrees

[Slavers]

I don't think the rest of the world would care all that much to be honest. I think they're getting just as fed up with them as we are. :wink:

Your either high on something or deluded if you think the world would give Scotland good credit terms after bumping our closest neighbour out of its debts. But if that's your plan then good for you but I doubt many will follow your train of thought unless you are inclined to bump debts.

[DaveF]

Your either high on something or deluded if you think the world would give Scotland good credit terms after bumping our closest neighbour out of its debts. But if that's your plan then good for you but I doubt many will follow your train of thought unless you are inclined to bump debts.

You should change your username to away team until the referendum is over :greengrin

[Slavers]

You should change your username to away team until the referendum is over :greengrin

I knew it wouldn't take long until the witch hunt started against people who want to remain part of the UK! Next you will be saying I'm no a real Scotsman lol :)

[JeMeSouviens]

Your either high on something or deluded if you think the world would give Scotland good credit terms after bumping our closest neighbour out of its debts. But if that's your plan then good for you but I doubt many will follow your train of thought unless you are inclined to bump debts.

We wouldn't be bumping anything. rUK will demand it is seen as the successor state (and you can't really argue with that) hence it retains the debt. Scotland could make a commitment to support some of that debt as part of a larger negotiation but even in that event, the entire debt would be in the UK's name (as confirmed by UK treasury in Indyref1).

[Slavers]

We wouldn't be bumping anything. rUK will demand it is seen as the successor state (and you can't really argue with that) hence it retains the debt. Scotland could make a commitment to support some of that debt as part of a larger negotiation but even in that event, the entire debt would be in the UK's name (as confirmed by UK treasury in Indyref1).

OK but I'm sure there will be a few deals being made like OK you want free movement of people with the UK? OK pay the money you owe or something similar.

[steakbake]

OK but I'm sure there will be a few deals being made like OK you want free movement of people with the UK? OK pay the money you owe or something similar.

Discussions like that could easily be maturely managed on a cross border basis.

The problem with that is 'maturely' but that comes down to the politicians and is not reason in itself as to why the independence question shouldn't be asked.

[Kavinho]

OK but I'm sure there will be a few deals being made like OK you want free movement of people with the UK? OK pay the money you owe or something similar.

UK Treasury stated it would assume full responsibility for the full debt on the run up to the last vote.

[Slavers]

UK Treasury stated it would assume full responsibility for the full debt on the run up to the last vote.

I suspect the english voter would want its contributions to Scotland paid back rightly or wrongly. I think this is where the previously mentioned negotiations would take place to appease the english tax payer so that's it's deemed to be fair in their eyes. Who knows?

[Kavinho]

I suspect the english voter would want its contributions to Scotland paid back rightly or wrongly. I think this is where the previously mentioned negotiations would take place to appease the english tax payer so that's it's deemed to be fair in their eyes. Who knows?

Contributions to Scotland?

[Slavers]

Contributions to Scotland?

Aye through the Barnet formula.

[Jack]

With all the chat about the UK debt/liabilities there's very little chat about the assets that could, probably should, be considered as well.

There's around 10% ish value of the following;

The UK reserves including the Bank of England itself.

The Armed Forces including the equipment from boots to battleships!

The buildings and land owned by the Crown Estate (Government buildings rather than where Liz lives), including all the Embassies and Consulates around the world. What is the value of Westminster?

These are just a few examples of high value stuff. There will be loads more :-)

[Bristolhibby]

Aye through the Barnet formula.

You mean the tax revenue Scotland contributes to minus U.K. plc's cut then the pocket money that is sent back as part of the formula?

How about Scotland keeps all its tax revenues to spend as it sees fit.

J

[yonder1875]

Yes, then - Yes, now.

[Slavers]

You mean the tax revenue Scotland contributes to minus U.K. plc's cut then the pocket money that is sent back as part of the formula?

How about Scotland keeps all its tax revenues to spend as it sees fit.

J

We spend more than we take in taxes. What do you suggest we do? Borrow and keep spending or make severe cuts to public spending?

[CapitalGreen]

We spend more than we take in taxes. What do you suggest we do? Borrow and keep spending or make severe cuts to public spending?

That assumes our tax take stays flat post independence.

[Slavers]

That assumes our tax take stays flat post independence.

I think that's where the SNP needs to set out its plans and make it clear how independence can be a success. How will it be paid for? Lender of last resort etc.

[Moulin Yarns]

Groat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groat_(coin)) – Silver, equivalent to four pence, from 1357 (giving rise to the term groatland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groatland))



a wee skipping rhyme for a Bawbee

Ma Mam sez that Ah maun go
Wi ma Daddy's denner-o
Chappit tatties, beef an steak
Twa reid herrin an a bawbee cake


a bawbee(for the uninitiated like me) was a scottish halfpenny from 1537 = six pence scots



the bawbee could be a goer, if JacktheLadd agrees

JacktheLadd wouldn't agree with himself if he was alone in a locked room with a smoke bomb.

[Hibrandenburg]

JacktheLadd wouldn't agree with himself if he was alone in a locked room with a smoke bomb.

:agree: He'd probably start a flag debate.

[Smartie]

JacktheLadd wouldn't agree with himself if he was alone in a locked room with a smoke bomb.

If Scotland were to become independent he wouldn't be able to afford a smoke bomb, a lock or a room.

[Kavinho]

We spend more than we take in taxes. What do you suggest we do? Borrow and keep spending or make severe cuts to public spending?

Could you name me maybe 2 countries globally that don't run a deficit?


With a solid Asset base, Scotland "could" afford to borrow whilst it rebalances its economy to the extent that it could run a surplus a little down the line.

[JeMeSouviens]

Could you name me maybe 2 countries globally that don't run a deficit?


With a solid Asset base, Scotland "could" afford to borrow whilst it rebalances its economy to the extent that it could run a surplus a little down the line.

:agree: ... and debt is historically very cheap for now. The problem with this responsible approach is that it has to be made clear that the deficit has to be brought to a sensible level through a combination of growth and/or cuts and/or tax rises within a reasonable timeframe (5 years?). If a clear plan isn't set out people won't buy into it. It's vital that the Yes case is and is seen to be realistic this time.

[PeeJay]

Why do unionists keep bringing up Scotlands "deficit"?

Scotland doesn't have a deficit, it's a UK deficit along with UK debt. Scotland has zero legal liability over this debt and could walk away from it without breaking any laws whatsoever.

I'm not saying it would be morally correct to do so. But it puts Scotland in a far more powerful bargaining position than unionists care to admit to themselves.

Perhaps, because it is a relevant issue? Scotland does not have its own currency - so that presents a problem right away: where does it get one?

If an "independent" Scotland wants to use pound sterling as part of a formal sterling currency zone (with the BoE acting as lender of last resort) it will have to accept a share of UK debt and honour its obligations, this will involve negotiations. Let's not forget both of Scotland's major banks were bailed out by UK taxpayers. Can you be sure they (and the BoE) will continue to do so in future? Will the rejected UK be up for this?

If Scotland decides just to use pound sterling without any currency union with the UK, who will finance Scotland's debt (old and new), how will Scotland attract inward investment, particularly if - as you say - Scotland just walks away from its debt obligations - financial markets/investors are not keen on that sort of thing normally?

How would simply walking away from debt obligations with a 300 year old union go down with an application to join the EU?

As to the moral aspect you refer to: how does that tie in with an outward, friendly and fair "independent" Scottish nation that wants to be better than its bigger neighbour?

[JeMeSouviens]

Perhaps, because it is a relevant issue? Scotland does not have its own currency - so that presents a problem right away: where does it get one?

If an "independent" Scotland wants to use pound sterling as part of a formal sterling currency zone (with the BoE acting as lender of last resort) it will have to accept a share of UK debt and honour its obligations, this will involve negotiations. Let's not forget both of Scotland's major banks were bailed out by UK taxpayers. Can you be sure they (and the BoE) will continue to do so in future? Will the rejected UK be up for this?

If Scotland decides just to use pound sterling without any currency union with the UK, who will finance Scotland's debt (old and new), how will Scotland attract inward investment, particularly if - as you say - Scotland just walks away from its debt obligations - financial markets/investors are not keen on that sort of thing normally?

How would simply walking away from debt obligations with a 300 year old union go down with an application to join the EU?

As to the moral aspect you refer to: how does that tie in with an outward, friendly and fair "independent" Scottish nation that wants to be better than its bigger neighbour?






It sets one up. A currency zone with sterling was an easy political attack for No/UK last time because they could just refuse it. It probably doesn't make economic sense any more anyway as iScotland would expect to be more Eurocentric and less rUKcentric over time.

I agree with you regarding supporting a historical share of UK debt. But the Scottish negotiators should press our share of all UK assets outside Scotland (while obviously acknowledging vice versa for UK assets inside Scotland). This should see a large imbalance in our favour to be offset.

[JeMeSouviens]

There have been polls from 4 firms in the last week or so. Numbers are:

BMG - Y 48 N 52
Ipsos-MORI - Y 50 N 50
Survation - Y 47 N 53
Yougov - Y 43 N 57

Yougov don't include 16/17 year olds which I guess will account for some of the difference to the others.

Summary - it's close but with N still a bit ahead.

[Jack]

With all the chat about the UK debt/liabilities there's very little chat about the assets that could, probably should, be considered as well.

There's around 10% ish value of the following;

The UK reserves including the Bank of England itself.

The Armed Forces including the equipment from boots to battleships!

The buildings and land owned by the Crown Estate (Government buildings rather than where Liz lives), including all the Embassies and Consulates around the world. What is the value of Westminster?

These are just a few examples of high value stuff. There will be loads more :-)

Someone was thinking the same as me 😊

Independence will generate a £109,000,000,000 asset windfall for Scotland

http://www.businessforscotland.com/independence-will-generate-a-109000000000-asset-windfall-for-scotland/

[Mr Grieves]

There have been polls from 4 firms in the last week or so. Numbers are:

BMG - Y 48 N 52
Ipsos-MORI - Y 50 N 50
Survation - Y 47 N 53
Yougov - Y 43 N 57

Yougov don't include 16/17 year olds which I guess will account for some of the difference to the others.

Summary - it's close but with N still a bit ahead.

Also interesting results in the Scottish social attitudes survey When folk are asked to give their preferred choice from 3 options. 46% independence, 42% devolution and 8% no scottish parliament

[Colr]

I don't get a vote but I would have voted no last time and quite emphatically. I would vote yes now and I've never been a nationalist.

Its still not my preferred solution but neither is the status quo.

[northstandhibby]

I don't get a vote but I would have voted no last time and quite emphatically. I would vote yes now and I've never been a nationalist.

Its still not my preferred solution but neither is the status quo.

Just about sums up my situation also. I'm no nationalist either but brexit is a disastrous outcome for me and cannot comprehend being governed by a bunch of right wing tories let loose in absence of EU checks and balances. Unfortunately English protectionism has allowed this but in truth I don't blame the vast majority of the ordinary normally moderate English folk who have seen mass immigration into their towns and cities unchecked. It should never have got to the stage where normally ordinary English folk felt they had nowhere to turn other than the tories and/or Ukip. We all live on this small island and hopefully once independence does happen we can all still live in some harmony within it. I hope the SNP folk refrain from coming across as smug and arrogant and show restraint as the English will still be our nearest neighbours.

glory glory

[Jack]

From the Martin Lewis money website.

THIS WEEK'S POLL
Should Scotland be an independent country? Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has demanded a second referendum on Scottish independence. Last time, the question was: "Should Scotland be an independent country

Results

I live in England (8930 votes)

Yes to Scottish independence 3151 votes (35%)

No to Scottish independence 5477 votes (61%)

I’d abstain
302 votes (3%)

I live in Northern Ireland (405 votes)

Yes to Scottish independence
225 votes (56%)

No to Scottish independence
171 votes (42%)

I’d abstain
9 votes (2%)

I live in Scotland (8859 votes)

Yes to Scottish independence 6053 votes (68%)

No to Scottish independence 2771 votes (31%)

I’d abstain
35 votes (0%)

I live in Wales (741 votes)

Yes to Scottish independence
322 votes (43%)

No to Scottish independence
398 votes (54%)

I’d abstain
21 votes (3%)

Interesting that so many English bothered to vote.

The Scottish abstentions suggests high interest and anyone who can is likely to vote. Another huge turnout?

[JeMeSouviens]

From the Martin Lewis money website.

THIS WEEK'S POLL
Should Scotland be an independent country? Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has demanded a second referendum on Scottish independence. Last time, the question was: "Should Scotland be an independent country

Results

I live in England (8930 votes)

Yes to Scottish independence 3151 votes (35%)

No to Scottish independence 5477 votes (61%)

I’d abstain
302 votes (3%)

I live in Northern Ireland (405 votes)

Yes to Scottish independence
225 votes (56%)

No to Scottish independence
171 votes (42%)

I’d abstain
9 votes (2%)

I live in Scotland (8859 votes)

Yes to Scottish independence 6053 votes (68%)

No to Scottish independence 2771 votes (31%)

I’d abstain
35 votes (0%)

I live in Wales (741 votes)

Yes to Scottish independence
322 votes (43%)

No to Scottish independence
398 votes (54%)

I’d abstain
21 votes (3%)

Interesting that so many English bothered to vote.

The Scottish abstentions suggests high interest and anyone who can is likely to vote. Another huge turnout?


I think there will be a huge turnout but self selecting polls are just a total waste of time - who bothers to tick a box saying they'd abstain?

[Finbar]

I've always voted Labour, well sometimes lib dem to keep the Tories out. But always with the intention of electing a government that would look after the more vulnerable in our society, that's important to me.
I'm at the point now where I don't believe Labour can do it anymore. They are divided and the press are against them but more than that, they just don't have any new ideas as far as I can see.
I'll vote for independence but what worries me is if we end up with another No vote and we stay in the UK, where does that leave us in terms of democracy? What do we do, go back to voting Labour and Tory and hope for the best?

I think Scotland can survive on it's own just as well as Ireland, Denmark or Belgium. We'll create a central bank and a currency. We'll probably end up in the EEA, similar to Norway, and have to wait a few years to rejoin the EU, or we might decide to stay outside.

[Just Alf]

I've always voted Labour, well sometimes lib dem to keep the Tories out. But always with the intention of electing a government that would look after the more vulnerable in our society, that's important to me.
I'm at the point now where I don't believe Labour can do it anymore. They are divided and the press are against them but more than that, they just don't have any new ideas as far as I can see.
I'll vote for independence but what worries me is if we end up with another No vote and we stay in the UK, where does that leave us in terms of democracy? What do we do, go back to voting Labour and Tory and hope for the best?

I think Scotland can survive on it's own just as well as Ireland, Denmark or Belgium. We'll create a central bank and a currency. We'll probably end up in the EEA, similar to Norway, and have to wait a few years to rejoin the EU, or we might decide to stay outside.
This my good man is pretty much where I am.

IF we were to get independence I think I'd vote SNP 1st time around but after that my vote would be up in the air and Labour/greens would be way ahead of them for my vote.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[Betty Boop]

No last time and no any time.

[JeMeSouviens]

In more encouraging news I have located 2 N->Y switchers amongst my colleagues, so they do exist!

[Geo_1875]

No last time and no any time.

Is there no circumstance that would cause you to vote yes to independence for Scotland?

I find it hard to believe that acceptance of the status quo, no matter how bad, can be so ingrained.

[hibs0666]

In more encouraging news I have located 2 N->Y switchers amongst my colleagues, so they do exist!

It's not what they think now it's what they think in 2023 when the referendum is held.

[JeMeSouviens]

It's not what they think now it's what they think in 2023 when the referendum is held.

Och away, we've time for 3 referendums before then. :wink:

[makaveli1875]

Is there no circumstance that would cause you to vote yes to independence for Scotland?

I find it hard to believe that acceptance of the status quo, no matter how bad, can be so ingrained.

its ingrained on both sides . some yes voters are going to vote yes at all costs , some no voters wil vote no regardless of whats on offer. i voted yes last time , probably no this time but that is not set in stone .

[Moulin Yarns]

It's not what they think now it's what they think in 2023 when the referendum is held.

That is one hell of a crystal ball that you have that you are the only person that knows the date of the referendum, Marty! :wink:

I heard it was going to be not long after the Brexit negotiations are completed, so that will be 3 months either side 31/12/2018, no point waiting for all the pain of leaving the EU beforehand.

[Bristolhibby]

its ingrained on both sides . some yes voters are going to vote yes at all costs , some no voters wil vote no regardless of whats on offer. i voted yes last time , probably no this time but that is not set in stone .

What made you switch if you don't mind me asking.

I know plenty of No to Yes, but no Yes to No. just curious.

J

[CropleyWasGod]

Och away, we've time for 3 referendums before then. :wink:

Can we have a hibs.net poll on whether that should be referenda?

If we're going down that road, we're gonny have to get some facts out there.

:cb

[johnbc70]

What made you switch if you don't mind me asking.

I know plenty of No to Yes, but no Yes to No. just curious.

J

I know a Yes to No voter, does not want to be part of EU so would rather remain with the status quo than vote for getting into bed with Europe.

[steakbake]

I know a Yes to No voter, does not want to be part of EU so would rather remain with the status quo than vote for getting into bed with Europe.

I think SNP are alive to that. Discussion goes they'll seek single market and EFTA/EEA.

[Speedy]

From the Martin Lewis money website.

THIS WEEK'S POLL
Should Scotland be an independent country? Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has demanded a second referendum on Scottish independence. Last time, the question was: "Should Scotland be an independent country

Results

I live in England (8930 votes)

Yes to Scottish independence 3151 votes (35%)

No to Scottish independence 5477 votes (61%)

I’d abstain
302 votes (3%)

I live in Northern Ireland (405 votes)

Yes to Scottish independence
225 votes (56%)

No to Scottish independence
171 votes (42%)

I’d abstain
9 votes (2%)

I live in Scotland (8859 votes)

Yes to Scottish independence 6053 votes (68%)

No to Scottish independence 2771 votes (31%)

I’d abstain
35 votes (0%)

I live in Wales (741 votes)

Yes to Scottish independence
322 votes (43%)

No to Scottish independence
398 votes (54%)

I’d abstain
21 votes (3%)

Interesting that so many English bothered to vote.

The Scottish abstentions suggests high interest and anyone who can is likely to vote. Another huge turnout?

I expect a big turnout but I'd take that poll with a pinch of salt.

[Bristolhibby]

I know a Yes to No voter, does not want to be part of EU so would rather remain with the status quo than vote for getting into bed with Europe.

IMHO it's Independence first, then relationship with Europe next.

Have a vote about joining / staying in the EU after independence is gained. This will then be Scotlands decision to make. Not England and Wales.

J

[makaveli1875]

What made you switch if you don't mind me asking.

I know plenty of No to Yes, but no Yes to No. just curious.

J

my personal circumstances have changed . last time i didnt have much to lose , iv just bought my 1st house and about to start a family and would appreciate some sort of stability at this time . also my yes vote last time was largely because i felt north sea oil would have made us fairly prosperous , now its not looking so much like that will be the case

[Bristolhibby]

my personal circumstances have changed . last time i didnt have much to lose , iv just bought my 1st house and about to start a family and would appreciate some sort of stability at this time . also my yes vote last time was largely because i felt north sea oil would have made us fairly prosperous , now its not looking so much like that will be the case

Oil prices are cyclical, they will rise again once Saudi cuts production.
Not sure stability is there mate. Brexit will be a hum-dinger.

Thanks for the honest response. Good luck with the family.

GGTTH

J

[Jack]

I expect a big turnout but I'd take that poll with a pinch of salt.

Absolutely. More a pre nostalgic post that we can look back to and feel the love from our English cousins 😂

[Jack]

my personal circumstances have changed . last time i didnt have much to lose , iv just bought my 1st house and about to start a family and would appreciate some sort of stability at this time . also my yes vote last time was largely because i felt north sea oil would have made us fairly prosperous , now its not looking so much like that will be the case

There are fair few London economists and political commentators suggestiing the UK after Brexit will be "dire". Some sort of 'armageddon' for the UK scenario until 2030 at best.

Your children will be teenagers before they can expect a quality of life we had some years ago in post Brexit Britain.

"" their words.

''my word using a fitba analogy 😊

[RyeSloan]

Oil prices are cyclical, they will rise again once Saudi cuts production.
Not sure stability is there mate. Brexit will be a hum-dinger.

Thanks for the honest response. Good luck with the family.

GGTTH

J

Brave assumption re oil.

Saudis already rowing back on their cuts

US shale already ramping up production thanks to better tech even in the new normal of low oil prices

Technology advances significantly reducing medium to long term oil needs, esp for transport.

In short the prospect of $100 per barrel any time soon is a very remote one.

And anyway England is much more likely to have an oil boom compared to Scotland...in a rather unexpected turn of events there is a strong prospect that the oil fields around Gatwick known as the Kimmeridge could provide a huge boost to the UK's energy sector.

[snooky]

It would be interesting to know how many folk would like the majority of England to join us and leave the SE on their ownsome. :greengrin
Me for one.

[northstandhibby]

my personal circumstances have changed . last time i didnt have much to lose , iv just bought my 1st house and about to start a family and would appreciate some sort of stability at this time . also my yes vote last time was largely because i felt north sea oil would have made us fairly prosperous , now its not looking so much like that will be the case

Unfortunately brexit shattered the bedrock of the UK and the consequences are a valid but slightly premature attempt by the SNP who have some merit in arguing for a second indy ref. However, it appeared clumsy for Nicola to undermine what are very important negotiations with the EU as it was after all a UK wide vote. I think Nicola was bounced into the conference declaring intention as I had outlined previously she may well have been under pressure from others within her party to go down that route so soon.

A more mature approach would have been to hold off and criticise the Tories at every junction of the negotiations which may end acrimoniously then call for it taking the ordinary Scots folk with them.

Looking in neutrally it appears May is in control of the situation by declaring a pause to the calls for indy ref 2 until the negotiations are completed with the SNP appearing as wreckers instead of mature debaters.

I would have approached the situation in a more measured output and appeared as a party willing to salvage tory negligence after EU negotiations were completed whatever shape they are and claim the UK is no longer fit for purpose.

I think the timing and approach is off and looks clumsy by the SNP at this time.

glory glory

[johnbc70]

There are fair few London economists and political commentators suggestiing the UK after Brexit will be "dire". Some sort of 'armageddon' for the UK scenario until 2030 at best.

Your children will be teenagers before they can expect a quality of life we had some years ago in post Brexit Britain.

"" their words.

''my word using a fitba analogy 😊

Is that the same people that said if we voted to leave the EU we would have an immediate budget with tax rises and spending cuts, and growth would plummet. They were wrong.

I voted to remain but I think it shows nobody has a clue what will happen post Brexit.

[northstandhibby]

Is that the same people that said if we voted to leave the EU we would have an immediate budget with tax rises and spending cuts, and growth would plummet. They were wrong.

I voted to remain but I think it shows nobody has a clue what will happen post Brexit.

Not really true as it has always depended on what type of brexit occurs. The negotiations are key to what shape the outcome will take.

glory glory

[ronaldo7]

[QUOTE=johnbc70;4980842]Is that the same people that said if we voted to leave the EU we would have an immediate budget with tax rises and spending cuts, and growth would plummet. They were wrong.

[B]I voted to remain but I think it shows nobody has a clue what will happen post Brexit.[QUOTE]

David Davis certainly doesn't, and he's the guy in charge of it "Leading for Britain".

This what he said yesterday.

* Said it was “probably right” that holidaying Britons will lose EHIC cards, which provide free or subsidized healthcare across the EU, but added: “I have not looked at that one.”

* Admitted he did not know the implications of leaving with no deal on the transfer of personal data, which is crucial issue for the booming tech industry.

* Acknowledged UK producers of dairy and meat would face tariffs of up to 40 per cent under World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules – “the numbers in agriculture are high”.

* Described the argument that the UK could walk away without paying a penny to the EU, if no deal is reached, as “interesting” – “a very good start in this exercise”.

* Said he expected Northern Ireland would end up with a “very light border, not a hard border” with the Republic.

* Said he “assumed” the ‘Open Skies’ agreement – which has slashed airfares across the EU - will be lost, although he would fight for a successor.

* Confirmed financial services firms are poised to lose ‘passporting rights’ to trade in the EU, saying: “I would expect that to be the case, that’s an area of uncertainty.”

When pushed about an economic assessment, he said this..."You don't need a piece of paper with numbers on it to have an economic assessment".

We're safe in the Tories hands though eh. Have a wee look at the video from Fiasal islam, it's embarrassing. The Europeans will be bricking it.

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/842161838741696513

[TheReg!]

I think SNP are alive to that. Discussion goes they'll seek single market and EFTA/EEA.

John Nicholson said last night that the SNP wants full EU membership.
The SNP in all honestly have messed up, full EU, EFTA, etc etc, they just want Independence and they'll say anything to get it, I think some Tate starting to see through it.

[Peevemor]

John Nicholson said last night that the SNP wants full EU membership.
The SNP in all honestly have messed up, full EU, EFTA, etc etc, they just want Independence and they'll say anything to get it, I think some Tate starting to see through it.

How have they messed up?

If and when Indyref 2 is officially launched, the Scottish Government will publish their proposals for iScotland. Scotland will have no problem entering either EFTA or the EU.

Scotland is far from being the economic basket case that some unionists would have us believe - even ignoring the billions of barrels of oil reserves (which are apparently a handicap - aye right!).

I have no doubt that this time round, the Yes campaign will be a lot more clear cut and a second "project fear" simply won't work as, unlike the first time round, a non EU rUK will have very little influence on how an iScotland will set itself out.

It doesn't stop them trying though - I've already seen stuff about pensions, NATO, etc. - bring it on!

[ronaldo7]

More stuff on GERS from Richard Murphy. https://t.co/SySWG00sP4

As GERS shows, Scotland has almost no real data on its economy. Whether its tax income, savings, investment, imports, exports and much else, what I am saying (and what it seems Margaret Cuthbert is saying) is that there is simply no data available for Scotland. And that means that the decision has been taken by those who might collect this data – which for these purposes would all seem to be London based agencies – not to collect it.

[Just Alf]

It's pure tunnel vision, selfish and not very well thought through mate. The biggest thing for me however is the 400,000 yes voters who voted to leave the EU, do you think that they will want to leave one Union for another? Even if it was just half of that number, it's a huge swing needed to get independence.



In a way I get what you're saying.... But (there's always a but :greengrin ) people who in their hearts want self government for Scotland could still vote for independence and in the following governmental elections vote for the party that best reflects their views on Europe.

In a funny way I think if Scotland did get independence we'd see a resurgence of Labour and Tory fortunes in Scotland.

[PeeJay]

Oil prices are cyclical, they will rise again once Saudi cuts production.
Not sure stability is there mate. Brexit will be a hum-dinger.

Thanks for the honest response. Good luck with the family.

GGTTH

J

:confused: Not as simple as that anymore - Saudia Arabia has long since cut back on oil production (November 2016), in fact it recently announced that it may consider increasing production again. The concept of reducing output has failed to achieve the desired increase in oil prices because the cutbacks from OPEC countries are simply made up for by the US increasing its levels of oil production (through, e.g. fracking) ...

[lyonhibs]

I didn't get to vote in the last one, but would probably have - just - been a shade on the "No" side.

Seeing as the next one might not be for 6 years, who knows where I'll be, but - in spite of my misgivings over the economics of Independence - I think the chance of being free of this particularly toxic brand of Tory-dom and a member of the EU (again, that's not a certainty) is a risk worth taking vs. the certainty of being part of post Brexit UK being run (into the ground) by the Tories.

It's not a hugely appealing choice though - if Scotland was nailed on to get EU membership that would assuage my fears immensely but that's not the case.

[Moulin Yarns]

http://www.hibs.net/images/hibsnet/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by TheReg! http://www.hibs.net/images/hibsnet/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?p=4980937#post4980937)

It's pure tunnel vision, selfish and not very well thought through mate. The biggest thing for me however is the 400,000 yes voters who voted to leave the EU, do you think that they will want to leave one Union for another? Even if it was just half of that number, it's a huge swing needed to get independence.



We keep hearing about the yes voters that voted leave, but there were also (more?) No voters who voted to remain. What about them? Do they not get considered in any of the arguments?

The infographic from Lord Ashcroft is interesting as it shows, proportionately, how party supporters influenced the outcome.

[NZ Green]

My uneducated theory is that if we go Independent and stay in the EU, alot of international business that's based in England, particularly banking, may benefit from relocating to Scotland to make trading within the EU easier and cheaper. This is purely based on assumption but surely being out of the EU is going to make trading within Europe a bit of a pain in the ass. Scotland might be Englands gateway to get around it.