Holt should have started

[Captain Trips]

As it says, I have not been his biggest fan but he managed to get on the scorsheet last week a perfect chance for him to get a run see if kicks on then he is on bench.

Can we say his age was why dropped on Saturday? Well tonight was a week on it was always going to be a tough battle with a team fighting.

I just cannot understand why Holt was not starting that match. To not come on at HT beggars belief or it did for me.

[High-On-Hibs]

It makes no difference when you don't have a midfield.

[Captain Trips]

It makes no difference when you don't have a midfield.

Ball was getting punted Holt could drop deep so for me it was perfect for a non creative midfield to have Holt playing.

[Michael]

Agreed, his presence causes defences trouble. I would guess it was a "tactical" decision since we had two defensive midfielders starting. Maybe the idea was to protect the defence a bit since we had a new player in there.

[Radium]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170302/fee5b17ee6d1da89a207715c23650268.jpg

Being reported he had a hamstring problem which is why he didn't start


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[Captain Trips]

Agreed, his presence causes defences trouble. I would guess it was a "tactical" decision since we had two defensive midfielders starting. Maybe the idea was to protect the defence a bit since we had a new player in there.

Perhaps but protecting players no not for me, we should trust what we have and concentrate on the fact we have better players than St Mirren.

Various players let us down tonight but our setup played a factor in that.

[Ozyhibby]

Agreed, his presence causes defences trouble. I would guess it was a "tactical" decision since we had two defensive midfielders starting. Maybe the idea was to protect the defence a bit since we had a new player in there.

He bumps into defenders a lot but doesn't really cause them the trouble that really matters, like scoring against them.


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[Captain Trips]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170302/fee5b17ee6d1da89a207715c23650268.jpg

Being reported he had a hamstring problem which is why he didn't start


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Fair enough but could still pull hamstring if playing at all then.

[AZhibee]

I can say that now, but I felt fine with Cummings and Boyle at the time. Hindsight.

[Smartie]

Holt is our most important player.

We go to pieces when he doesn't play.

Any suggestion of an injury to him is very bad news indeed, as no combination of our other strikers has ever looked anything like good enough.

[Gus]

If he was fit enough to come on at HT he was fit enough to start. If NL admits Holt had a niggle, why bring him on as a sub? If he breaks down we have to sub a sub, start him and see how it goes surely...

[aussie_hibee]

He bumps into defenders a lot but doesn't really cause them the trouble that really matters, like scoring against them.


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He never gives them a minutes peace. They very rarely get a free header against him which means it's not coming straight back on top of us and keeping us deep. He doesn't even need to win the header, as it will drop in to the midfield and we can win it / retain it in there. The ball sticks up top when he's there and it brings others in to the game. It also means the high press from the opposition is a little more risky as the their midfielders may get caught in front of the ball if it drops from Holt and we pick up the scraps whereas without him, they can comfortably press high on to us, knowing that almost every time, their CHs will easily win the ball and put it back on top of us, or retain it and start building before we are high enough up the pitch to press them.
It's amazing how much more work centre midfielders have to do when the ball doesn't stick with the striker. They're basically doing shuttle runs up and down the pitch chasing box to box instead of controlling the tempo themselves and working in a smaller area.

[Ozyhibby]

He never gives them a minutes peace. They very rarely get a free header against him which means it's not coming straight back on top of us and keeping us deep. He doesn't even need to win the header, as it will drop in to the midfield and we can win it / retain it in there. The ball sticks up top when he's there and it brings others in to the game. It also means the high press from the opposition is a little more risky as the their midfielders may get caught in front of the ball if it drops from Holt and we pick up the scraps whereas without him, they can comfortably press high on to us, knowing that almost every time, their CHs will easily win the ball and put it back on top of us, or retain it and start building before we are high enough up the pitch to press them.
It's amazing how much more work centre midfielders have to do when the ball doesn't stick with the striker. They're basically doing shuttle runs up and down the pitch chasing box to box instead of controlling the tempo themselves and working in a smaller area.

And at the end of the match we have still dropped points again because we have failed to score. We need goals to win this league and he neither create nor scores goals. He is failing badly. He's making James Collins look prolific.
Opposition defenders will love playing him. Yes you might get roughed up a bit but if your walking off with a clean sheet then it's a job well done.


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[Smartie]

And at the end of the match we have still dropped points again because we have failed to score. We need goals to win this league and he neither create nor scores goals. He is failing badly. He's making James Collins look prolific.
Opposition defenders will love playing him. Yes you might get roughed up a bit but if your walking off with a clean sheet then it's a job well done.


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Holt isn't the main reason why defenders walk away with clean sheets.

Ask the Hearts defence if they liked playing against Holt.

We toil every time he doesn't start.

I have no idea what the answer is at this stage, especially if Holt is carrying an injury but the failure to add significantly to our small squad in January looks like it might well come back to haunt us.

[aussie_hibee]

And at the end of the match we have still dropped points again because we have failed to score. We need goals to win this league and he neither create nor scores goals. He is failing badly. He's making James Collins look prolific.
Opposition defenders will love playing him. Yes you might get roughed up a bit but if your walking off with a clean sheet then it's a job well done.


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What a naive and uneducated outlook on the game.

How many teams have walked off with a clean sheet when he has started?

Just because he doesn't score doesn't equal a clean sheet for the opposition. He brings others in to the game and gets us higher up the pitch. Which in turn puts our defence in less danger and our attack in more promising positions with the chance to create goal scoring opportunities for THE TEAM.

Some strikers just score goals and being nothing else to the team.
Some strikers don't score as many but bring so much more to the team.
Some do neither and drop down the levels quickly and some do both and end up at the highest level.

[GreenCastle]

The part about Holt and a possibly hamstring issue?

Surely he doesn't feature at all then risk him for last 30 and could have made it worse?

Odd when we have Graham / Keatings on bench.

Would really like to see Shaw feature also - but on kid at Stenhousemuir.

[loanheadhibby]

He never gives them a minutes peace. They very rarely get a free header against him which means it's not coming straight back on top of us and keeping us deep. He doesn't even need to win the header, as it will drop in to the midfield and we can win it / retain it in there. The ball sticks up top when he's there and it brings others in to the game. It also means the high press from the opposition is a little more risky as the their midfielders may get caught in front of the ball if it drops from Holt and we pick up the scraps whereas without him, they can comfortably press high on to us, knowing that almost every time, their CHs will easily win the ball and put it back on top of us, or retain it and start building before we are high enough up the pitch to press them.
It's amazing how much more work centre midfielders have to do when the ball doesn't stick with the striker. They're basically doing shuttle runs up and down the pitch chasing box to box instead of controlling the tempo themselves and working in a smaller area.

The 2 Dunfermline Centre Backs had a peaceful time on Saturday night against him. They never lost a header. You could pick anyone from the crowd to run about and be a nuisance. Surely we are looking for a bit more? An how bad must Graham and Keatings be if they cannot get in our starting line up.

Since February 201 against the Hearts, we've barely kicked a ball.

[aussie_hibee]

And at the end of the match we have still dropped points again because we have failed to score.


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But he didn't start? So really it's Cummings and keatings that have failed. No????

[Ozyhibby]

What a naive and uneducated outlook on the game.

How many teams have walked off with a clean sheet when he has started?

Just because he doesn't score doesn't equal a clean sheet for the opposition. He brings others in to the game and gets us higher up the pitch. Which in turn puts our defence in less danger and our attack in more promising positions with the chance to create goal scoring opportunities for THE TEAM.

Some strikers just score goals and being nothing else to the team.
Some strikers don't score as many but bring so much more to the team.
Some do neither and drop down the levels quickly and some do both and end up at the highest level.

Our goal scoring rate when Holt is on the pitch is the same as when he is not. He makes no difference to how many goals we score. For our main striker that is pretty bad.
The reason I single out Holt rather than Cummings (also Cummings scores) is that Holt was our big summer signing brought in to improve last years terrible goal scoring rate. He has failed to do it.
I might be uneducated in the finer points of the game like yourself but when we were looking for a striker last summer I never seen anyone on here say that what we need is someone who can get us 3 league goals by March and can't play back to back fixtures because of his age.



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[aussie_hibee]

The 2 Dunfermline Centre Backs had a peaceful time on Saturday night against him. They never lost a header. You could pick anyone from the crowd to run about and be a nuisance. Surely we are looking for a bit more? An how bad must Graham and Keatings be if they cannot get in our starting line up.

Since February 201 against the Hearts, we've barely kicked a ball.

So he was, in your opinion, poor against Dunfermline.
Gray has been stinking for 2 on the spin so he's no good by your reasoning.

Yeah you can just grab someone from the crowd to run around, bully defenders, know about body shape to hold off defenders, how to hold the ball up until others can join in the play and link the midfield and attack. (And have the ability, fitness and strength to do it)

That's why clubs don't buy professionals and just drag people from the crowd to save money right????

[Ozyhibby]

So he was, in your opinion, poor against Dunfermline.
Gray has been stinking for 2 on the spin so he's no good by your reasoning.

Yeah you can just grab someone from the crowd to run around, bully defenders, know about body shape to hold off defenders, how to hold the ball up until others can join in the play and link the midfield and attack.

That's why clubs don't buy professionals and just drag people from the crowd to save money right????

There is no doubt he is good at all those things but that's not what we need. We need goals.


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[greenpaper55]

Our goal scoring rate when Holt is on the pitch is the same as when he is not. He makes no difference to how many goals we score. For our main striker that is pretty bad.
The reason I single out Holt rather than Cummings (also Cummings scores) is that Holt was our big summer signing brought in to improve last years terrible goal scoring rate. He has failed to do it.
I might be uneducated in the finer points of the game like yourself but when we were looking for a striker last summer I never seen anyone on here say that what we need is someone who can get us 3 league goals by March and can't play back to back fixtures because of his age.



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Fair enough point but what is the use of lobbing high balls forward to Boyle and Cummings ? there is more to forward play than just scoring goals as a big forward can get the ball to stick and bring others into the game and get your team up the park, if it's good enough for Man United then it's good enough for me ! Watching last night the tactics were like a five year old had set them up, not good enough and if the team play like that for the rest of the season we will struggle to win any game never mind the league.

[blackpoolhibs]

Our goal scoring rate when Holt is on the pitch is the same as when he is not. He makes no difference to how many goals we score. For our main striker that is pretty bad.
The reason I single out Holt rather than Cummings (also Cummings scores) is that Holt was our big summer signing brought in to improve last years terrible goal scoring rate. He has failed to do it.
I might be uneducated in the finer points of the game like yourself but when we were looking for a striker last summer I never seen anyone on here say that what we need is someone who can get us 3 league goals by March and can't play back to back fixtures because of his age.



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Pissing against the wind my friend. :agree:

[aussie_hibee]

So why no focus on Jason, who is there predominantly for goals, who failed to score? Or keatings?

Or could it be a case that we could've had Messi and ronaldo up top and wouldn't have scored because our midfield lost the battle just as they did against Dunfermline and Raith.

Unless we're expecting Holt to do all that as well as score?

[blackpoolhibs]

So why no focus on Jason, who is there predominantly for goals, who filed to score? Or keatings?

Or could it be a case that we could've had Messi and ronaldo up top and wouldn't have scored because our midfield lost the battle just as they did against Dunfermline and Raith.

Unless we're expecting Holt to do all that as well as score?

Has Jason not been scoring goals, or even setting them up recently? I'm pretty sure if Cummings had scored the grand total of 3 goals this season, and remember we are into March now, he'd be getting it tight too.

[Ozyhibby]

So why no focus on Jason, who is there predominantly for goals, who failed to score? Or keatings?

Or could it be a case that we could've had Messi and ronaldo up top and wouldn't have scored because our midfield lost the battle just as they did against Dunfermline and Raith.

Unless we're expecting Holt to do all that as well as score?

Jason has 15 goals to his name. If Holt had the same we would not be having this conversation.


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[Stevie Reid]

Craig Brewster scored the grand total of 5 goals in 28 appearances for Hibs, but he was an excellent player for us. We went on a run of 17 games without a win in the one season he was here, and he missed 14 of those through injury. Whoever played alongside him that season felt the benefit - Luna and O'Connor in particular.

I really like Holt, and what he brings to the team - and believe we play better with him in it.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Craig Brewster scored the grand total of 5 goals in 28 appearances for Hibs, but he was an excellent player for us. We went on a run of 17 games without a win in the one season he was here, and he missed 14 of those through injury. Whoever played alongside him that season felt the benefit - Luna and O'Connor in particular.

I really like Holt, and what he brings to the team - and believe we play better with him in it.

This:top marks

[aussie_hibee]

Yes but that was in reference to us losing because we didn't score.

The opening post was about Holt starting and I gave my opinion on that. OzyHibby countered by saying at the end of the match we still lost because we didn't score. Surely more the fair of the trailers that started than Holt's?

Remember, they are there for different reasons. Jason is a goal scorer, Holt is a target man.

And instead of comparing individuals goals, why not have a look at the partnership. I'd be fairly confident that the partnership of Holt and Cummings provides more goals per game than Cummings with anybody else. Or any other partnership for that matter.

It boils down to this (in my humble opinion).
We are. It good enough to play with 2 or even 3 small strikers.
It requires movement and passing at a level that we can't do.

That leaves the option of a target man and goal scorer.

Holt is our best target man so by that reasoning he should start as much as possible.

FWIW, I would much rather see us with 2 or 3 mobile strikers getting in behind back lines and on to through balls as we cut teams open but we don't / can't do that with what we have or at the pace we play at.

[Captain Trips]

I am not saying Holt has been a success I have said before like all our other strikers he has been average at best. Last night he for me was the best of a bad bunch to start.

[aussie_hibee]

Jason has 15 goals to his name. If Holt had the same we would not be having this conversation.


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How often, if ever, do you see a strike force where both score as many as each other????

If keatings or Graham or shinnie had scored more then Holt wouldn't be considered but they haven't.

So who would you play with Cummings?

[Captain Trips]

Bottom line for me Holt actually scored the other night he should have started again to see if he is the player a lot on here tell me is.

Not seeing it in any of our forwards, big fail from everyone bar JC.

[GreenCastle]

Let's see the stats for goals for the rest of the team..

[aussie_hibee]

I am not saying Holt has been a success I have said before like all our other strikers he has been average at best. Last night he for me was the best of a bad bunch to start.

Football is all about opinions. It would be extremely boring if it everybody thought the same.
Some feel Holt brings a lot to the team, some feel he doesn't score enough or maybe feel he doesn't bring anything or score enough.

But the question at the end is who should be starting with Cummings?

Like Holt or not, it say most would agree that he's the best option to play alongside Jason whether that's because people rate him or think he's the best of a bad bunch, I think it's been the best partnership

[Smartie]

There is no doubt he is good at all those things but that's not what we need. We need goals.


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There's an awful lot more to scoring goals than the person who provides the final touch on the ball before it goes in the net.

[Smartie]

Football is all about opinions. It would be extremely boring if it everybody thought the same.
Some feel Holt brings a lot to the team, some feel he doesn't score enough or maybe feel he doesn't bring anything or score enough.

But the question at the end is who should be starting with Cummings?

Like Holt or not, it say most would agree that he's the best option to play alongside Jason whether that's because people rate him or think he's the best of a bad bunch, I think it's been the best partnership

I think the question should be who should be starting with Holt.

Boyle scored goals when played up front with Holt, Keatings looked fine when he came in to partner Holt.

I do think that Cummings and Holt is by far our most effective strike force irrespective of who we play and if they are fit they should start every game together.

Fitness and form may be a factor here though. Holt had a poorer game on Saturday but we still got 2 goals and ultimately it was the defence who cost us.

Every time Holt doesn't start we're all over the shop and look like we couldn't score if we played all week long.

We have serious problems in the final third and our over-reliance on a 35 year old striker who doesn't get many goals is part of it.

[ancient hibee]

We have probably the best goal scorer in the league.He always seems to play better when Holt plays as does the team generally.Solution seems obvious to me.

[Ozyhibby]

Cummings goals per min are similar whether Holt plays or not. Someone else posted the stats on another thread.
Apologies aussie_hibee, we are arguing two different things and its me who is off topic. I was talking in general while the thread is about last night. My point is more to do with Holt being a bad signing. Reality is that even I would play him just now as we have very little other options. I just feel we should have signed better at the time and when we realised that we still were not scoring we should have brought someone in in the Jan window.



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