Indy 2 - Over before it bgan

[Hibbyradge]

Scottish Secretary David Mundell has said a second independence referendum was possible, but it should not happen because a second ballot would be "seriously unpleasant".

That's that then.

[JeMeSouviens]

In normal circumstances where the governing party could muster at least a few MPs, Mundell wouldn't even be allowed to be the guy that carries the bag of the guy that carries the bag of the Secretary of State for Scotland. :rolleyes:

[northstandhibby]

Scottish Secretary David Mundell has said a second independence referendum was possible, but it should not happen because a second ballot would be "seriously unpleasant".

That's that then.

I watched that interview this morning. Mundell appeared blustering and uncomfortable at the valid questioning.

What I found more disturbing was the follow on item concerning businesses based in Scotland and across the Uk are certain to be considering moving out and into the EU to be part of the single market as a consequence of brexit.

If only the businesses had loudly vocally warned of these easily foreseen consequences to the less politically aware brexiteer

Jobs being potentially shifted out of Scotland and across the UK that will seriously damage the economy because of the Little Englanders, nice one, not.

glory glory

[snooky]

Game over. King David has spoken. We can all go back in our cages. :shotdowni :dead:

[Benny Brazil]

Scottish Secretary David Mundell has said a second independence referendum was possible, but it should not happen because a second ballot would be "seriously unpleasant".

That's that then.

Hopefully it is - we don't need any more division.

[johnbc70]

Seems like the people agree, support for an indy ref 2 was less than 50% in recent poll. Yes it was 49% but still......

Sturgeon has a big call to make, now could be her chance but if she calls it wrong and has another defeat then it puts an end to the debate for a generation, but we have heard that before!

[snooky]

Hopefully it is - we don't need any more division.

Totally agree. Tell the dividers on both sides :coffee:

[Eddie Burntool]

Hopefully it is - we don't need any more division.

This, exactly.

[snooky]

Seems like the people agree, support for an indy ref 2 was less than 50% in recent poll. Yes it was 49% but still......

Sturgeon has a big call to make, now could be her chance but if she calls it wrong and has another defeat then it puts an end to the debate for a generation, but we have heard that before!

IMO this is not the time for Indyref2. It's also for the wrong reason. It may come in the future but not now.

[lord bunberry]

Seems like the people agree, support for an indy ref 2 was less than 50% in recent poll. Yes it was 49% but still......

Sturgeon has a big call to make, now could be her chance but if she calls it wrong and has another defeat then it puts an end to the debate for a generation, but we have heard that before!
If you consider the swing from no to yes in the last campaign 49% is a solid starting point. The swing won't be anything like the last time(if at all) but it doesn't have to be.

[makaveli1875]

I watched that interview this morning. Mundell appeared blustering and uncomfortable at the valid questioning.

What I found more disturbing was the follow on item concerning businesses based in Scotland and across the Uk are certain to be considering moving out and into the EU to be part of the single market as a consequence of brexit.

If only the businesses had loudly vocally warned of these easily foreseen consequences to the less politically aware brexiteer

Jobs being potentially shifted out of Scotland and across the UK that will seriously damage the economy because of the Little Englanders, nice one, not.

glory glory

near enough every post you make on the subject of brexit you call people who voted leave little englanders

the majority of welsh voted to leave and 38% of scots voted to leave - how are you going to fit these people into your little england narrative

[ronaldo7]

From No to Yes.

https://t.co/aWmCqsP9JI

[grunt]

Hopefully it is - we don't need any more division.Exactly. So if everyone will kindly agree with me, we can move forward.

This was intended to be a light-hearted comment, but in writing it I've realised that this is precisely the approach being taken by the Tory Government.

[Slavers]

near enough every post you make on the subject of brexit you call people who voted leave little englanders

the majority of welsh voted to leave and 38% of scots voted to leave - how are you going to fit these people into your little england narrative

It's certainly an example of Xenophobia.

[northstandhibby]

near enough every post you make on the subject of brexit you call people who voted leave little englanders

the majority of welsh voted to leave and 38% of scots voted to leave - how are you going to fit these people into your little england narrative

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/little_englander

There was no little england narrative.

I'm sure the vast majority of folk understand the type I'm referring to when I mention little englanders - xenophobes, racists, homophobes, rule brittania, BNP, etc etc. You're not making any real political point and I suspect you are being semantic for the sake of it, therefore I won't be replying to any of your posts unless I deem them to have a real point.

glory glory

[Slavers]

If you consider the swing from no to yes in the last campaign 49% is a solid starting point. The swing won't be anything like the last time(if at all) but it doesn't have to be.

I think its more likely it will swing towards no rather than swing more towards yes.

The economic argument is stronger for No this time IMO. Economics will win the argument for the NO campaign if if does come to Indyref2.

[JackLadd]

I think its more likely it will swing towards no rather than swing more towards yes.

The economic argument is stronger for No this time IMO. Economics will win the argument for the NO campaign if if does come to Indyref2.



Was there ever an economic case for iScotland? It seemed to be precariously predicated on a high oil price, keeping the pound and no border/tariff trading relationship with England while somehow being given EU membership despite Spain having a veto that they would 100% have used. This was before Brexit and the deficit in Scotland rising to £15bn a year due to the oil price collapsing. I know the nats say there is a UK deficit anyway but London has the Bank of England. We'd be outside the EU and UK, would have no triple A rating to issue bonds and would have to borrow to bridge the deficit and pay our share of the legacy debt on some Scots pound before we spent a penny on the pensions (public sector as well as state) and NHS. Maybe Sturgeon will sell some EU dream and the Euro this time round. Again, Spain has a veto and who wants the Euro? The EU is heading for oblivion if they have refs in France, Holland and Italy anyway.

[beensaidbefore]

IMO this is not the time for Indyref2. It's also for the wrong reason. It may come in the future but not now.

Agree 👍

[northstandhibby]

I think our Nicola will have no choice but to call for indy ref 2 if a hard brexit or no deal at all is the outcome of the tories 'negotiations' with the EU. A hard brexit or the no deal at all is the perfect opportunity to pitch to the Scottish folk that we are being led down the path of xenophobia and massive cuts to public services with the poorest hit the hardest.

If she does not take the golden opportunity of which she has consistently argued for in light of a hard brexit or no deal at all I would suggest the more hard-line SNP members will have no qualms of getting rid of Nicola and replacing her with someone who will call for indy ref 2.

As for the economy argument I would suggest the UK would be in no position to state security and stability considering the great uncertainty a hard brexit or no deal at all would encounter.

One of the few circumstances that could prevent Nicola having to make good on her position of indy ref 2 would be if the brexit deal falls short of a hard brexit or no deal at all with a bespoke deal negotiated with the EU. Other than that Nicola has virtually no choice but to seek indy ref 2 or face the threat of being removed from being leader of the SNP.

glory glory

[lord bunberry]

I think its more likely it will swing towards no rather than swing more towards yes.

The economic argument is stronger for No this time IMO. Economics will win the argument for the NO campaign if if does come to Indyref2.
Economic arguments didn't win it for No the last time! Lies and broken promises did. Will the people of this country be prepared to listen to the No campaign this time? Who would lead the No campaign?
I fail to see how the economic argument for No is stronger this time. We're just about to enter into the biggest period of economic uncertainty in living memory.

[Bristolhibby]

Was thinking the same. How the economic case is stronger for no is beyond me. We are about to be plunged into the abyss of leaving the EU and the single market. A few ropey trade deals with China and India ain't going to fill the gap. Timing is key, the ability to stay in the EU as an independent country is something that has to be viewed. Then there would be nothing to veto, as for all intents and purposes, we are the remainer from the UKs place.

J

[Moulin Yarns]

Interesting debate at Pitlochry theatre next Friday


Hello,

We are looking forward to seeing you at the Winter Words Festival next week.

As a ticket holder for the event ‘What’s Next for Scotland?’ you are invited to put forward your own question.

We would need this to be submitted in advance and would ask you to send it by email to our General Manager, Annie Hibberd on [email protected] (javascript:handleMailto('mailto:annie.hibberd@pit lochryfestivaltheatre.com');return false;) by close of business on Friday 10th February.

Don’t forget to tell us your name and where you are sitting, so that the roving microphone can find you in the auditorium. If you would prefer not to raise the question to the panel personally, just let us know and we can submit it directly.

Please note, we cannot guarantee there will be time to include all of the questions on the night.

Since going to print, unfortunately Lesley Riddoch has had to withdraw from the event due to health reasons. Her place will be ably taken by Nicola McEwenwho is a Professor of Politics at the University of Edinburgh, and Associate Director of the ESRC Centre on Constitutional Change (http://www.futureukandscotland.ac.uk/projects/research-centre). Nicola specialises in research on devolution, territorial politics and multi-level governance. She is a frequent contributor to radio, television and print news outlets, offering commentary on elections, government and policy, and the Scottish constitutional debate.

[HibernianJK]

Herald article shows Scottish Independence 'yes' vote up to 49%

[JeMeSouviens]

Seems like the people agree, support for an indy ref 2 was less than 50% in recent poll. Yes it was 49% but still......

Sturgeon has a big call to make, now could be her chance but if she calls it wrong and has another defeat then it puts an end to the debate for a generation, but we have heard that before!

She will be aware that she has a limited shelf life as FM and the SP may not have a pro-Indy majority post 2021 so her chance to be the FM that leads us to independence may not exist all that long. I guess she might have waited until 2020 and gone for Indyref2 in the aftermath of the inevitable gnashing of teeth that will follow the realisation that the UK will have Tory governments for at least a decade or more to come. But Brexit has happened whether we're ready for it or not ...

I think there are 2 compelling reasons to go now:

- it will be easier to stay in the EEA/EU, possibly with a bridging transitional status, than get back in later
- Scotland would be uniquely well positioned to take a chunk of post-Brexit relocations from rUK and possible inward investment looking for a bridgehead to European markets.

Now that I have lived to see Hibs win the cup, an indy Scotland is an inevitability. :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

Maybe one for the Brexit thread.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/eu-officials-are-discussing-how-to-fast-track-an-independent?utm_term=.upmyVyMkw#.tyYO3O7nW

[RyeSloan]

Maybe one for the Brexit thread.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/eu-officials-are-discussing-how-to-fast-track-an-independent?utm_term=.upmyVyMkw#.tyYO3O7nW

Yet we have this chat at the same time..

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/10/independent-scotland-would-have-to-apply-for-eu-membership?client=safari

[JackLadd]

I think there are 2 compelling reasons to go now:

- it will be easier to stay in the EEA/EU, possibly with a bridging transitional status, than get back in later
- Scotland would be uniquely well positioned to take a chunk of post-Brexit relocations from rUK and possible inward investment looking for a bridgehead to European markets.

Now that I have lived to see Hibs win the cup, an indy Scotland is an inevitability. :wink:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/22/spain-rejects-nicola-sturgeon-brexit-plan-scotland-seemingly/

What a wee shame Spain and probably Belgium will veto any such arrangement. Sad but true.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8MO7fkZc5o

[steakbake]

Yet we have this chat at the same time..

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/10/independent-scotland-would-have-to-apply-for-eu-membership?client=safari

Newspapers aren't just about headlines - you have to read the story, too.

She said:

“There are a number of official candidate countries – Montenegro, Serbia, Bosnia Herzegovina, [but] they are still quite some way away from meeting the criteria for membership. And obviously were Scotland to become independent, they would join that list.

Now, it might be easier for an independent Scotland to meet those criteria. The fact that all your legislation has to be in alignment with existing European rules would presumably not be too difficult for Scotland, compared with, say, Montenegro. And that might enable them to move faster than others.”

“All member countries are committed to eventual membership of the euro with the exception of the opt-outs that exist for the UK and Denmark. But there is no stipulated timeline for joining the euro.“

[Glory Lurker]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/22/spain-rejects-nicola-sturgeon-brexit-plan-scotland-seemingly/

What a wee shame Spain and probably Belgium will veto any such arrangement. Sad but true.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8MO7fkZc5o

The word "true" suggests that this can be objectively verified. I won't click on a telegraph link, so could you provide something else?

[snooky]

She will be aware that she has a limited shelf life as FM and the SP may not have a pro-Indy majority post 2021 so her chance to be the FM that leads us to independence may not exist all that long. I guess she might have waited until 2020 and gone for Indyref2 in the aftermath of the inevitable gnashing of teeth that will follow the realisation that the UK will have Tory governments for at least a decade or more to come. But Brexit has happened whether we're ready for it or not ...

I think there are 2 compelling reasons to go now:

- it will be easier to stay in the EEA/EU, possibly with a bridging transitional status, than get back in later
- Scotland would be uniquely well positioned to take a chunk of post-Brexit relocations from rUK and possible inward investment looking for a bridgehead to European markets.

Now that I have lived to see Hibs win the cup, an indy Scotland is an inevitability. :wink:

One point that concerns me. Everybody seems to assume that all who voted "Yes" at Indy want to stay in the EU.
How can we be sure that is the case? :dunno:

[marinello59]

One point that concerns me. Everybody seems to assume that all who voted "Yes" at Indy want to stay in the EU.
How can we be sure that is the case? :dunno:

It isn't the case. There are plenty of Yes voters who also voted to leave the EU. The fishing community in the North East for example.

[beensaidbefore]

One point that concerns me. Everybody seems to assume that all who voted "Yes" at Indy want to stay in the EU.
How can we be sure that is the case? :dunno:

I voted yes and brexit, I would vote no this time. I want to wait until the dust settles and I'm also less convinced by sturgeon than I was salmond.

[RyeSloan]

Newspapers aren't just about headlines - you have to read the story, too.

She said:

“There are a number of official candidate countries – Montenegro, Serbia, Bosnia Herzegovina, [but] they are still quite some way away from meeting the criteria for membership. And obviously were Scotland to become independent, they would join that list.

Now, it might be easier for an independent Scotland to meet those criteria. The fact that all your legislation has to be in alignment with existing European rules would presumably not be too difficult for Scotland, compared with, say, Montenegro. And that might enable them to move faster than others.”

“All member countries are committed to eventual membership of the euro with the exception of the opt-outs that exist for the UK and Denmark. But there is no stipulated timeline for joining the euro.“

Believe it or not I was capable of reading the story [emoji12]

I posted it as it was directly relevant to the other link.

And anyway "might be easier" "might enable them to move faster" hardly suggests anything solid and there is no qualification of what "faster" might mean...this is the EU we are talking about, not exactly a paradigm of speed and efficiency!

In other words there is still zero clarity on how or when Scotland would or could join the EU as an independent state barring the suggestion that it would be anything but automatic.

[JackLadd]

It isn't the case. There are plenty of Yes voters who also voted to leave the EU. The fishing community in the North East for example.


I would say they were voting just as much to leave the EU as Salmond's confection. These fisherman knew leaving the union also meant leaving the EU that has devastated their industry. Spain would veto iScotland EU membership to stop the Basques following suit. Salmond was told this time again and no EU licking and Brussels visits by Sturgeon since 2014 is going to shift that one inch. You can say the same about keeping the pound and especially post Brexit. Imagine living near the border and being unable to spend your Scot's groat in Berwick, Newcastle, Carlisle... Who wants that?

That said I don't rule out an indyref2 succeeding, in a world where a crook like Donald Trump is elected potus anything is possible. Tell enough lies and BS and repeat it often enough and gullible people are taken in.

[JeMeSouviens]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/22/spain-rejects-nicola-sturgeon-brexit-plan-scotland-seemingly/

What a wee shame Spain and probably Belgium will veto any such arrangement. Sad but true.


Did you read the article you linked to?

If only there was a crap music vid to link to called "ignorant trolling" :rolleyes:

[JeMeSouviens]

One point that concerns me. Everybody seems to assume that all who voted "Yes" at Indy want to stay in the EU.
How can we be sure that is the case? :dunno:

Polling indicates about 30% of SNP voters voted leave.

Personally I would favour iScotland starting in the EEA with another referendum on full EU membership down the line.

[northstandhibby]

I would say they were voting just as much to leave the EU as Salmond's confection. These fisherman knew leaving the union also meant leaving the EU that has devastated their industry. Spain would veto iScotland EU membership to stop the Basques following suit. Salmond was told this time again and no EU licking and Brussels visits by Sturgeon since 2014 is going to shift that one inch. You can say the same about keeping the pound and especially post Brexit. Imagine living near the border and being unable to spend your Scot's groat in Berwick, Newcastle, Carlisle... Who wants that?

That said I don't rule out an indyref2 succeeding, in a world where a crook like Donald Trump is elected potus anything is possible. Tell enough lies and BS and repeat it often enough and gullible people are taken in.

That is exactly what Ukip and the Little Englander tories did to obtain a leave outcome. Scotland when independent which is looking increasing likely would join the queue to apply for full membership in due course and in the meantime be part of the EFTA/EEA. Scotland could even be fast-tracked in as it meets many of the elements already required to join. I can't see any need for a referendum once independent as Scotland clearly voted to remain. Personally I would join the EU as full members as soon as we could with our European neighbours, Euro and all please.

glory glory

[lucky]

Polling indicates about 30% of SNP voters voted leave.

Personally I would favour iScotland starting in the EEA with another referendum on full EU membership down the line.

If Scotland votes to go independent then we would need a referendum on joining the EU and obviously we'd need to see what the terms were.

Personally I want another independence referendum asap so that the matter can be put to bed and whoever is in power can get on with improving our country

[ronaldo7]

It isn't the case. There are plenty of Yes voters who also voted to leave the EU. The fishing community in the North East for example.

:agree: And the Fishing community are about to be rogered once again.

18046

[ronaldo7]

Herald article shows Scottish Independence 'yes' vote up to 49%

That poll excluded 16 and 17 yr olds. Game on.:greengrin

[lord bunberry]

One point that concerns me. Everybody seems to assume that all who voted "Yes" at Indy want to stay in the EU.
How can we be sure that is the case? :dunno:
We can't be sure. We also can't be sure that everyone who voted no in the Indy referendum wanted to leave the EU. The only thing we can be certain of is that we were told the only way to ensure EU membership was to vote no. That is an undeniable fact and a good enough reason to hold a second referendum. David Cameron said as much in the EU referendum campaign.

[northstandhibby]

One more very good reason for independence would be Edinburgh would become the focal point for an independent Scotland. Soon it would become apparent the Glasgow bigot fest is a blight on our nation and we would call for it to be reigned in. Bigotry no more would become the cry and Glasgow's bigot fest and its shame on Scotland would be no more.

glory glory

[RyeSloan]

One more very good reason for independence would be Edinburgh would become the focal point for an independent Scotland. Soon it would become apparent the Glasgow bigot fest is a blight on our nation and we would call for it to be reigned in. Bigotry no more would become the cry and Glasgow's bigot fest and its shame on Scotland would be no more.

glory glory

I'll have some of what you are on..[emoji23][emoji23]

[northstandhibby]

I'll have some of what you are on..[emoji23][emoji23]

I'm always highly dubious of folk who comically comment in absence of explanation.

glory glory

[RyeSloan]

I'm always highly dubious of folk who comically comment in absence of explanation.

glory glory

Comically comment...I like that [emoji106]

As creative hypothetical events go that was quite a good one [emoji6]

[northstandhibby]

Comically comment...I like that [emoji106]

As creative hypothetical events go that was quite a good one [emoji6]

Hypothetically speaking of course.

glory glory

[xyz23jc]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/22/spain-rejects-nicola-sturgeon-brexit-plan-scotland-seemingly/

What a wee shame Spain and probably Belgium will veto any such arrangement. Sad but true.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8MO7fkZc5o

You seem genuinely distraught!:rolleyes:

[ronaldo7]

Was there ever an economic case for iScotland? It seemed to be precariously predicated on a high oil price, keeping the pound and no border/tariff trading relationship with England while somehow being given EU membership despite Spain having a veto that they would 100% have used. This was before Brexit and the deficit in Scotland rising to £15bn a year due to the oil price collapsing. I know the nats say there is a UK deficit anyway but London has the Bank of England. We'd be outside the EU and UK, would have no triple A rating to issue bonds and would have to borrow to bridge the deficit and pay our share of the legacy debt on some Scots pound before we spent a penny on the pensions (public sector as well as state) and NHS. Maybe Sturgeon will sell some EU dream and the Euro this time round. Again, Spain has a veto and who wants the Euro? The EU is heading for oblivion if they have refs in France, Holland and Italy anyway.

I keep seeing that Spain has a veto, and whilst this is true for all EU nations, it will be the same Spain who welcomed secessionist Baltic states, and Slovakia into the EU without a peep. :aok:

[--------]

Scottish Secretary David Mundell has said a second independence referendum was possible, but it should not happen because a second ballot would be "seriously unpleasant".

That's that then.


Unpleasant for whom exactly?

Not half as unpleasant as the Brexit vote turned out for a while lot of people.

IIRC Fascists and their fellow-travellers only agree to referenda or plebiscites when they've already nobbled the vote and are 100% sure of the result ....

[Glory Lurker]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/22/spain-rejects-nicola-sturgeon-brexit-plan-scotland-seemingly/

What a wee shame Spain and probably Belgium will veto any such arrangement. Sad but true.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8MO7fkZc5o

Please post the objective evidence of this that I asked for - it genuinely could alter my vote if IndyRef 2 happens.

[snooky]

Becks wrecks Scotex :wink:

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/anger-at-claim-becks-backed-no-camp-to-help-win-knighthood/

[easty]

Becks wrecks Scotex :wink:

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/anger-at-claim-becks-backed-no-camp-to-help-win-knighthood/

I didn't even realise he backed No. I voted Yes, but if I'd known Beckham wanted me to vote no...who knows.

What did Steven Gerrard and Olly Murs want me to do? I feel like I never properly looked into the important things back when I voted.

[makaveli1875]

That poll excluded 16 and 17 yr olds. Game on.:greengrin

the polls had britain a stick on certainty to remain in the EU

they also had hillary romping to victory over the pond

if last year taught us nothing else surely we learned that polls are not the most reliable these days

[WeeRussell]

Polling indicates about 30% of SNP voters voted leave.

Personally I would favour iScotland starting in the EEA with another referendum on full EU membership down the line.


Really? I never would have expected it to be that high. I guess, as previously mentioned on this thread, there are certain industries and communities that would be generally for both but the figure still surprises me.

Maybe it's more the ignorance of me being YES and REMAIN and assuming so many YESers would be the same.

[speedy_gonzales]

Really? I never would have expected it to be that high. I guess, as previously mentioned on this thread, there are certain industries and communities that would be generally for both but the figure still surprises me.

Maybe it's more the ignorance of me being YES and REMAIN and assuming so many YESers would be the same.
I can't explain the high figure across Scotland, but I do know family members that are Pro-Indpendence & Pro-Europe that voted leave so as to give the SNP a mandate for indyref2,,,, means to an end I suppose!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I watched that interview this morning. Mundell appeared blustering and uncomfortable at the valid

Ha ha, so just being himself then...!

[Just Alf]

I keep seeing that Spain has a veto, and whilst this is true for all EU nations, it will be the same Spain who welcomed secessionist Baltic states, and Slovakia into the EU without a peep. :aok:
I keep seeing that as well, that's despite the Spanish PM (president ?) stating in an interview a day or 2 before the vote that the Spanish "issue" with newly independent countries entering the EU was purely if the relevant country had split unconstitutionally which DIDN'T apply to Scotland and DID apply to Catalonia.



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

the polls had britain a stick on certainty to remain in the EU

they also had hillary romping to victory over the pond

if last year taught us nothing else surely we learned that polls are not the most reliable these days

I agree with the bit in bold. I just wanted to point out that 16 and 17 yr old were not included in that poll, and as they were some of the most vociferous in the YES campaign, who turned out in big numbers, it may sway the poll.

EU Scots might take a different view this time round too.

Yes have so many positive things going for them this time. :aok:

[WeeRussell]

I can't explain the high figure across Scotland, but I do know family members that are Pro-Indpendence & Pro-Europe that voted leave so as to give the SNP a mandate for indyref2,,,, means to an end I suppose!

Funnily enough one of the first things I said to my auld man on the matter was "All roads lead to Rome" though caveated that I would prefer the independence drive to be for positive reasons rather than the divisive ****** up of Brexit. I would never have considered voting leave for these reasons but interesting to hear others did that you know of.

[Geo_1875]

I can't explain the high figure across Scotland, but I do know family members that are Pro-Indpendence & Pro-Europe that voted leave so as to give the SNP a mandate for indyref2,,,, means to an end I suppose!

That seems a bit naïve considering as things stand we're not independent and about to leave EU. If enough people had followed suit we'd have had a leave majority and no mandate for IndyRef2.

Personally I tend to follow the moral argument for Independence rather than the economics. If it costs me more tax to be free of Conservative government so be it.

[beensaidbefore]

Really? I never would have expected it to be that high. I guess, as previously mentioned on this thread, there are certain industries and communities that would be generally for both but the figure still surprises me.

Maybe it's more the ignorance of me being YES and REMAIN and assuming so many YESers would be the same.

I think the fear was out of the frying pan into the fire. It could be argued that the UK government would be more interested in the goings on than the European Parliament. We are only 5 million, a very small percentage of Europe, how loud would our voice be? Could we not leave both? I have even less interest in Mr France or Mr Germany deciding my future than Mr London deciding it.

[ronaldo7]

I think the fear was out of the frying pan into the fire. It could be argued that the UK government would be more interested in the goings on than the European Parliament. We are only 5 million, a very small percentage of Europe, how loud would our voice be? Could we not leave both? I have even less interest in Mr France or Mr Germany deciding my future than Mr London deciding it.

Our voice would be similar in decibels as Ireland, Bulgaria, Denmark, and Finland. It would be louder than, Slovakia, Lithuania, Croatia, Slovenia, Latvia, Estonia, Cyprus, Luxemburg, and Malta.

Imagine all these countries of similar size or smaller having to listen to Scotland eh.:wink: