Jim Spence floating the merger of the Dundee clubs

[Radium]

Not sure if he is just stirring things but this seems to be another example of misjudging fans commitment to their clubs. Always thought he talked sense [emoji15]

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[SirDavidsNapper]

Merger? No, wouldn't work. Ground share? Absolutely.

[Eyrie]

If you were starting from scratch then you'd only put one team in Dundee, but I can't believe a merger would be a good idea for the fans of either team who will take their loyalty and rivalry just as seriously as we do.

[Radium]

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[CropleyWasGod]

Merger? No, wouldn't work. Ground share? Absolutely.
Would you say the same about Edinburgh?

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[Keyser Sauzee]

I think there is a little truth in what he's saying, if either club want consistent "success" if u want to call it that, in Scotland then they really should look at merging as I don't see Dundee being big enough for both. But the fans won't want it and fair enough but they have to be happy with a possible final appearance every 10 years or so and very little success. Catch 22

[Waxy]

Even a merged Dundee club could never compete with the rich brothers so what would be the point. Theres alot more to football clubs than winning at all costs. The rivalry between the clubs is probably the best thing about football in that city so why take that away?

[Waxy]

I think there is a little truth in what he's saying, if either club want consistent "success" if u want to call it that, in Scotland then they really should look at merging as I don't see Dundee being big enough for both. But the fans won't want it and fair enough but they have to be happy with a possible final appearance every 10 years or so and very little success. Catch 22
Sure Dundee will be happy when/if they do eventually win the Scottish cup. Been a while for them.

[Glory Lurker]

It's not all about success you know, Mr Spence. And anyway, even if all the fans of both teams ran with it (I know, I know), the team would need a budget of about a squillion times the current DFC/DUFC budget to compete with ra Celtc. Spence is one of the good guys but, jeez, competition in Scottish football died decades ago, and with the cash at Darkheid these days it's deader than a dead thing.

[Keyser Sauzee]

Sure Dundee will be happy when/if they do eventually win the Scottish cup. Been a while for them.

Didnt say they wouldn't be happy with it, I said consistent success, which I doubt they would get as it stands. I'm not saying it's the right way to look at it tho as u make a good point about rivalry.

[MWHIBBIES]

I think there is a little truth in what he's saying, if either club want consistent "success" if u want to call it that, in Scotland then they really should look at merging as I don't see Dundee being big enough for both. But the fans won't want it and fair enough but they have to be happy with a possible final appearance every 10 years or so and very little success. Catch 22United have been in a lot of finals over the last 15 years.

[GreenCastle]

Said it for years - too many clubs in Scotland.

Not enough done to improve many of these clubs. Poor stadiums for many and money just going to 1st team.

I understand the community aspect but feel scottish football would improve if some clubs worked more closely together.

I think Dundee clubs should stay seperare but joint stadium could work. Though I did enjoy the atmosphere at the last Friday night game against Utd.

[Keyser Sauzee]

United have been in a lot of finals over the last 15 years.

True but both teams haven't which is the point about 2 teams from the city

[Bishop Hibee]

I didn't hear him advocating it when Dundee were in the Championship and Utd were top dogs in the city. No chance of happening.

[Ozyhibby]

Inverness merger was a success.
Scottish football needs some consolidation.


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[Bishop Hibee]

Inverness merger was a success.
Scottish football needs some consolidation.


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Hmmmmm. It may have been more successful in the long run if Inverness Caley had entered the league on their own. A number of Caley and Thistle fans either stoped watching football or went to watch Ross County. County have a support as big as ICT.

[snooky]

Maybe we should merge with Celtc :stirrer:

[Glory Lurker]

Maybe we should merge with Celtc :stirrer:

That's stupid. Given geography, it's only sensible that we merge with Edinburgh City. And hearts.

[matty_f]

If they merged and formed a new club, would they have to start at the bottom tier?

[northstandhibby]

Inverness merger was a success.
Scottish football needs some consolidation.


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I think Swiney could certainly be called a dump.

:greengrin

glory glory

[Sir David Gray]

I really hate it when this argument gets brought up. Why should any fan give up the team that they support just because someone thinks they're not going to achieve any success so it would be better if they merged with another club.

You're talking here about football clubs which are all well over 100 years old and several generations of the same family have gone to watch the club and it's a part of who they are.

Most people who support a football club, do not support that club because they think they're going to watch a successful side that regularly wins lots of trophies. They support the club because of family ties or because of the area they have been brought up in.

I hope both Dundee clubs stay as they are.

[SirDavidsNapper]

Would you say the same about Edinburgh?

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Groundsharing wouldn't work in Edinburgh. Too much history and tradition in Leith and Gorgie. It would in Dundee however as they are on the same Street. Always been surprised they haven't tried to share a stadium.

[jgl07]

Would you say the same about Edinburgh?


Why not Glasgow?

Or Manchester?

It's the daftest idea I have heard in years.

Football supporters are not supermarket customers.

[Is It On....]

Groundsharing wouldn't work in Edinburgh. Too much history and tradition in Leith and Gorgie. It would in Dundee however as they are on the same Street. Always been surprised they haven't tried to share a stadium.

Bought an album years ago called Stranger Than Tannadice that was named in honour of two grounds on the same street. Of all the ground sharing proposed over the years, this makes the most sense and they could even build it over the middle of the road.

[High-On-Hibs]

Football supporters are not supermarket customers.

Unless your support Hearts....

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:wink:

[Is It On....]

Unless your support Hearts....

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:wink:

Brilliant

[Michael]

Until the last year Dundee United had been a very competitive side for a decade or so. I don't think a merged club would do much better and most importantly no fan would want it.

[Centre Hawf]

Brilliant It's definitely not something I would like to see. I've always been somewhat impressed at how Dundee has produced two teams that have been relatively successful despite the small resource of people to pull fans from. As many have said the history of the two clubs etc shouldn't be wiped because someone fancies a better chance at a Scottish Cup win. Christ if we thought that would work we'd have backed Mercer!

In all honesty I know what he means, it's just not right and shouldn't happen. A groundshare could be possible though, but again who would want to move out of their stadium to move into someone elses? I know for a fact I wouldn't want to change from Easter Road for the Asbestosdome.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Scotland doesn't have many big clubs, which is what Dundee and Dundee Utd are in the context of Scottish football, the last thing we need is to lose one .... who would we replace the missing club with, Spartans? East Kilbride?

A shared stadium would make sense in Dundee, both Tannadice and Dens Park are dumps ..... they are so close that a joint stadium in the same street wouldn't exactly inconvenience either set of fans and would save both clubs a fortune. Its not uncommon on the continent, if its good enough for Rome and Munich its good enough for Dundee.

Mergers never work ....... Inverness should have been the poster boy for the idea, but the bitter rivalry built up between Thistle and Caley in a league nobody outside of the Highlands gives a toss about was still enough to lose the merged club a load of the folk who should have been its core fan base.
If you cant make a merged club work when its about to enter a league system its never played in before against clubs who couldn't give a Rat's ass about the two clubs who formed it you will never make a merged club playing in the league its always been in work.

Inverness isn't a big city, but its always been a football city and the dismal failure of the local population to support ICT in any significant numbers is for me one of the biggest disappointments I've had following Scottish football.
I had hoped that after a couple of decades we would be looking at a club able to match Dundee Utd crowd wise due to the locals historical enthusiasm for their clubs in Scottish cup matches against the big boys, which I had hoped would transfer to enthusiasm for a club playing regular top flight league games ..... sadly I was wrong.

[jgl07]

Hmmmmm. It may have been more successful in the long run if Inverness Caley had entered the league on their own. A number of Caley and Thistle fans either stopped watching football or went to watch Ross County. County have a support as big as ICT.
Exactly.

Loads of Thistle fans and some from Caledonian defected to Ross County after the merger.

The merger was certainly not a success. The club and the supporters were blackmailed into going along with it with the threat of not getting into the League. Ross County were allowed in without any merger and have done at least as well as Inverness.

Inverness Caledonian would be much stronger now had they been allowed to go it alone than ICT are now.

Average crowds of under 4,000 this season hardly shows Inverness as a success story. That is less than Ross County based on the tiny town of Dingwall.

[0762]

I wouldn't be surprised if Spence wasn't put up to this in some way to get the two clubs.

Worked for United for 9 months after leaving the BBC. Maybe suggest the extreme and people accept the compromise.
A merger could easily turn into a ground-share in a council backed stadium. If you've visited either stadium they are both run down and not really fit for purpose in the 21st Century.

To be fair if there was ever a two club city that should ground-share it would be Dundee.

Neither club is awash with cash to address there stadium problems.

[Swedish hibee]

They should share a ground. It's crazy to have 2 grounds in the same street. Noone I tell in Sweden believes me! Imagine the money each club could have..

[SouthMoroccoStu]

Celtic can't compete in European football against Man City or barca

They should merge with Rangers.....

Would love to see Jim Spence come away with this nugget of genius!

[Viva_Palmeiras]

I wouldn't be surprised if Spence wasn't put up to this in some way to get the two clubs.



To be fair if there was ever a two club city that should ground-share it would be Dundee.
<sniperty-snip>
Neither club is awash with cash to address there stadium problems.

My thoughts.

[GreenLake]

Edinburgh needs two clubs so that the people with sophistication and style can support Hibs and separate themselves from the uncouth.

[IWasThere2016]

Said it for years - too many clubs in Scotland.

Not enough done to improve many of these clubs. Poor stadiums for many and money just going to 1st team.

I understand the community aspect but feel scottish football would improve if some clubs worked more closely together.

I think Dundee clubs should stay seperare but joint stadium could work. Though I did enjoy the atmosphere at the last Friday night game against Utd.

Our game really needs to take a Scottish Rugby style approach and limit professional sides - on a geographical basis and compete nationally/internationally. However, it can't happen - too much tribalism, private cash/ownership etc. The only outcome is a slow and painful death or radical change via crisis. Sad.

[Smartie]

As Rangers and Celtic fall further behind Europe's elite, surely it's a no-brainer that the 2 teams from Scotland's second city merge to form a team who can compete in the European arena once more?

I mean, in that case you're talking about one team who have only got 4 years of history, no major trophy wins and a stadium that is literally falling apart.

I hate this merger chat.

Neil Lennon was bang on when it comes to the problems in Scottish football. We need to get more people playing, and wth more getting touches of the ball. The best of them can then be coached.

Mergers and numbers of teams in leagues are an irrelevance.

[Gordy M]

Our game really needs to take a Scottish Rugby style approach and limit professional sides - on a geographical basis and compete nationally/internationally. However, it can't happen - too much tribalism, private cash/ownership etc. The only outcome is a slow and painful death or radical change via crisis. Sad.
Not sure i agree, we are the 2nd highest supporting nation in europe per head of population. Football in Scotland is well supported in general....the issue is folk look a few hundred miles south and ask why we can sign players for xxxmillion on 100k a week. Money has ruined the game in my opinion....not too many teams etc.

[Ozyhibby]

Scotland doesn't have many big clubs, which is what Dundee and Dundee Utd are in the context of Scottish football, the last thing we need is to lose one .... who would we replace the missing club with, Spartans? East Kilbride?

A shared stadium would make sense in Dundee, both Tannadice and Dens Park are dumps ..... they are so close that a joint stadium in the same street wouldn't exactly inconvenience either set of fans and would save both clubs a fortune. Its not uncommon on the continent, if its good enough for Rome and Munich its good enough for Dundee.

Mergers never work ....... Inverness should have been the poster boy for the idea, but the bitter rivalry built up between Thistle and Caley in a league nobody outside of the Highlands gives a toss about was still enough to lose the merged club a load of the folk who should have been its core fan base.
If you cant make a merged club work when its about to enter a league system its never played in before against clubs who couldn't give a Rat's ass about the two clubs who formed it you will never make a merged club playing in the league its always been in work.

Inverness isn't a big city, but its always been a football city and the dismal failure of the local population to support ICT in any significant numbers is for me one of the biggest disappointments I've had following Scottish football.
I had hoped that after a couple of decades we would be looking at a club able to match Dundee Utd crowd wise due to the locals historical enthusiasm for their clubs in Scottish cup matches against the big boys, which I had hoped would transfer to enthusiasm for a club playing regular top flight league games ..... sadly I was wrong.

What crowds were Inverness Calledonian getting regularly before 1993? Less than 800?
The merger was a success. For every old die hard that refuses to go, about 4 younger fans now do.


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[jacomo]

Would you say the same about Edinburgh?

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A groundshare between Hibs and Hearts was definitely on the cards around 2003. Of course we stood up and were counted, and Hibs invested in ER instead. Hearts will never cross the city to Leith.

You simply don't have the same issue in Dundee. The two clubs almost share a site already.

[lord bunberry]

It makes sense to merge clubs all over the country, but it would never happen. We're talking about teams with loyal fans who don't want to see their clubs disappear.

[Carheenlea]

What crowds were Inverness Calledonian getting regularly before 1993? Less than 800?
The merger was a success. For every old die hard that refuses to go, about 4 younger fans now do.


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It would take a generation for a new club in Dundee to garner any real support, and by then the merged club could be down the tubes.

[Wheat Hound]

I think Jim Spences hair has been merged with a lavvy brush

[NAE NOOKIE]

What crowds were Inverness Calledonian getting regularly before 1993? Less than 800?
The merger was a success. For every old die hard that refuses to go, about 4 younger fans now do.


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Yes, but when any of the three Inverness clubs had a decent cup draw the games were usually well attended with crowds into the thousands. I think the potential was ( and is ) there to have a club drawing 6,000 fans to its games, which would put it up there with the clubs like Dundee Utd and to a lesser extent these days Dundee.

If you ask me the 3 Inverness clubs should have been wound up and a totally new club formed with new colours and a less cumbersome name ... though ICT does trip off the tongue ok. The Scottish League did the fledgling club no favours whatsoever by admitting Ross County to the league at the same time ... it gave the nae sayers somewhere to go that wasn't Clachnacuddin and cut off any hope ICT had of drawing support from the Black Isle and beyond at a stroke.

If the paltry crowds ICT draw these days is success I'd hate to see what failure looks like ..... perhaps it would help if they could upgrade or move from that isolated dump they play in.

[jacomo]

Not sure i agree, we are the 2nd highest supporting nation in europe per head of population. Football in Scotland is well supported in general....the issue is folk look a few hundred miles south and ask why we can sign players for xxxmillion on 100k a week. Money has ruined the game in my opinion....not too many teams etc.

We also have loads of clubs - 42 in the SPFL, whereas England has 92 in their league structure for a much bigger population.

But I am against compelling football teams to merge.

[GreenCastle]

Not sure i agree, we are the 2nd highest supporting nation in europe per head of population. Football in Scotland is well supported in general....the issue is folk look a few hundred miles south and ask why we can sign players for xxxmillion on 100k a week. Money has ruined the game in my opinion....not too many teams etc.

Always here this 2nd highest supporting nation in Europe stuff.

Bottom line is the main league isn't great and the Scottish National team are woeful.

Change is need in Scotland as it will get worse.

Hibs are going against the odds with crowds this season but also a competitive league and something to play for has seen interest rise (same with Dundee Utd and hearts when they were in this league).

Too many lower league teams playing in terrible stadiums with zero infrastructure - the SFA should have an elite 18 /20 roughly and regionalise the rest.

[Kaiser1962]

A groundshare between Hibs and Hearts was definitely on the cards around 2003. Of course we stood up and were counted, and Hibs invested in ER instead. Hearts will never cross the city to Leith.

You simply don't have the same issue in Dundee. The two clubs almost share a site already.

Our groundshare with Hearts was touted as both clubs were hamstrung with debt at the time and made financial sense. We all know what happened and only one club emerged with its dignity and credibility intact, hard though it was at times.

Groundshare and mergers only makes sense to to non-supporters of the clubs involved. When Ann Budge wants to "half" the number of senior clubs she is being hugely disrespectful to clubs as diverse as Arbroath, Stranraer, Queen of the South who's fans are as passionate about their club as anyone else is about theirs. Had her own club died, as it would have in almost any other environment, there would naturally and legitimately be one less.

[Tomsk]

Our game really needs to take a Scottish Rugby style approach and limit professional sides - on a geographical basis and compete nationally/internationally. However, it can't happen - too much tribalism, private cash/ownership etc. The only outcome is a slow and painful death or radical change via crisis. Sad.


You're right. History, culture and self-interest won't allow for type of reforms that are needed to make Scottish football viable outside its own goldfish bowl.

[CockneyRebel]

I really hate it when this argument gets brought up. Why should any fan give up the team that they support just because someone thinks they're not going to achieve any success so it would be better if they merged with another club.

You're talking here about footballhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.hibs.net/#93397085) clubs which are all well over 100 years old and several generations of the same family have gone to watch the club and it's a part of who they are.

Most people who support a football club, do not support that club because they think they're going to watch a successful side that regularly wins lots of trophies. They support the club because of family ties or because of the area they have been brought up in.

I hope both Dundee clubs stay as they are.

I agree - it makes perfect balance sheet sense to merge clubs (even Mercer got that bit right) but the outcry from supporters whenever this solution is floated proves that it would never work (unless perhaps two local clubs were going to the wall and a merger was the ONLY solution and even then I feel it need to be a new club rather than another ICT).

[Tomsk]

Not sure i agree, we are the 2nd highest supporting nation in europe per head of population. Football in Scotland is well supported in general....the issue is folk look a few hundred miles south and ask why we can sign players for xxxmillion on 100k a week. Money has ruined the game in my opinion....not too many teams etc.

The per head of population bit is the killer. We are a corner shop trying to compete with the Tesco and Sainsburys.

Plus over half of our total fan base is concentrated in two clubs.

[Gordy M]

Always here this 2nd highest supporting nation in Europe stuff.

Bottom line is the main league isn't great and the Scottish National team are woeful.

Change is need in Scotland as it will get worse.

Hibs are going against the odds with crowds this season but also a competitive league and something to play for has seen interest rise (same with Dundee Utd and hearts when they were in this league).

Too many lower league teams playing in terrible stadiums with zero infrastructure - the SFA should have an elite 18 /20 roughly and regionalise the rest.

So what we just ignore that our game is well supported because it doesnt suit?? National teams go through spells of doing well or not, thats what happens. Granted ours has been a while but thats nothing to do with whether albion rovers and partick merge with clyde or play in a regional league?? Some of these smaller teams are run a lot better than the big ones...see sevco and yams, but ud want to regionalise them for what reason?
The only thing that will improve our game is the money being distributed fairly...that gives other teams a chance compete.
Lastly i think its a bit rich of hibs fans wanting other teams to merge etc....given what we went through.

[Gordy M]

The per head of population bit is the killer. We are a corner shop trying to compete with the Tesco and Sainsburys.

Plus over half of our total fan base is concentrated in two clubs.
Yeh but the point that was made is that our game is in decline and that clearly isnt the case based on fans attending the game??jeez we critisized Regan when he came out with that comment but now some are saying the same??

[Colr]

Not sure if he is just stirring things but this seems to be another example of misjudging fans commitment to their clubs. Always thought he talked sense [emoji15]

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Forget that!!

What is up with his hair? Is that a wig?

[Colr]

I wouldn't be surprised if Spence wasn't put up to this in some way to get the two clubs.

Worked for United for 9 months after leaving the BBC. Maybe suggest the extreme and people accept the compromise.
A merger could easily turn into a ground-share in a council backed stadium. If you've visited either stadium they are both run down and not really fit for purpose in the 21st Century.

To be fair if there was ever a two club city that should ground-share it would be Dundee.

Neither club is awash with cash to address there stadium problems.

Dundee Council couldn't run a bath.

[jgl07]

Former Rangers' player Gordon Smith did a season in Vienna with Admira Wacker. He related the history of the club on Radio Scotland.

They were the result of a merger between ESV Admira Wien and FK Wacker Wien.

In 1971 Admira had average crowds of 6,967 while Wacker managed 3,007.

The clubs merged the following season and averaged 5.393! By 1974 they were down to 3.688.

In 1997 they merged again with VfB Mödling and averaged 3,047!

[Keith_M]

Would you say the same about Edinburgh?

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The Edinburgh clubs don't currently play in stadiums 150yds from each other, so surely not the same.

[Betty Boop]

Forget that!!

What is up with his hair? Is that a wig?

He looks like the First Minister.

[greenpaper55]

He looks like the First Minister.

Nah, he is better looking !

[Betty Boop]

Nah, he is better looking !
:greengrin

[IWasThere2016]

Forget that!!

What is up with his hair? Is that a wig?

I know Jim well.. nae wig or dye. It's aw his.


Dundee Council couldn't run a bath.

You are aware of the excellent job they're doing with the City's waterfront then?

[.Sean.]

See all these folk bleating on about the grounds being a dump, what else would you rather? A soulless bowl like every other club in England or a wee hellhole like St Mirren Park or St Johnstone's ground? Give me a ramshackle old stadium any day of the week.

Why do you care anyway, you're there a very maximum 4 times a year.

[judas]

Merger? No, wouldn't work. Ground share? Absolutely.

Maybe not as beneficial as you would think. Each site is worth no more than 350k. Whilst the maintenance of one stadium is cheaper than that of two, the ground keeping costs would be substantial, policing costs higher and the capital cost of new stadium construction would have to be serviced. I suspect that is why the seemingly sensible move to share has never Become a reality.

[Keith_M]

Maybe not as beneficial as you would think. Each site is worth no more than 350k. Whilst the maintenance of one stadium is cheaper than that of two, the ground keeping costs would be substantial, policing costs higher and the capital cost of new stadium construction would have to be serviced. I suspect that is why the seemingly sensible move to share has never Become a reality.


Surely selling the land one of the stadiums stands on would bring in enough to bring the other one up to scratch?

e.g. if Tannadice was sold, they would have the money to build a modern (and much larger) replacement for the shed at the south side of Dens Park.

Or vice versa with Dens and the South and West Stand at Tannadice,

[jacomo]

Our game really needs to take a Scottish Rugby style approach and limit professional sides - on a geographical basis and compete nationally/internationally. However, it can't happen - too much tribalism, private cash/ownership etc. The only outcome is a slow and painful death or radical change via crisis. Sad.


This is absolutely the worst thing that could happen.

Scottish rugby has done huge damage to the club game by ignoring traditions and imposing change from above.

I have long believed that the league structure is too big and cumbersome in Scotland. Two national leagues of, say, 16 teams each, supported by a regional system below that, would be my preference.

This would probably mean 32 pro clubs and semi-pro below that - but it would be for individual clubs to decide the best set up for them.

[judas]

Surely selling the land one of the stadiums stands on would bring in enough to bring the other one up to scratch?

e.g. if Tannadice was sold, they would have the money to build a modern (and much larger) replacement for the shed at the south side of Dens Park.

Or vice versa with Dens and the South and West Stand at Tannadice,

Not for350k.

Hibs west stand cost 6m and the simpler east less than 3m (only because hibs placed the order in the depths of the financial crisis when the construction industry was in panic mode).

The dundee clubs woukd probably spend half the 350k just demolishing the dens stand.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Why not Glasgow?

Or Manchester?

It's the daftest idea I have heard in years.

Football supporters are not supermarket customers.

Spot on. It won't happen and nor should it. Two professional clubs over a century old to become one: both sets of fans would walk away, leaving the new club nowhere. As Hibs fans we've heard this nonsense before, and the response is NEVER!

[snooky]

A groundshare between Hibs and Hearts was definitely on the cards around 2003. Of course we stood up and were counted, and Hibs invested in ER instead. Hearts will never cross the city to Leith.

You simply don't have the same issue in Dundee. The two clubs almost share a site already.

They would have to build a new stadium as neither would agree to move to the other one's ground (I would think)

[CMurdoch]

United are probably the 6th biggest team in Scotland.
A merger with Dundee would see them ....in the same position
and
still no chance of breaking into the top two.

Accordingly nothing to gain and lots to lose by destroying 2 Scottish teams with rich histories that are loved by their supporters.

[jacomo]

They would have to build a new stadium as neither would agree to move to the other one's ground (I would think)


You're probably right. And if the land value isn't high then it's probably unaffordable.