SINN FEIN'S MARTIN McGUINNESS

[ronaldo7]

McGuinness to resign as Deputy First Minister this evening
Sinn Fein's Martin McGuinness is to resign this evening as Northern Ireland's Deputy First Minister.
He'll stand down at 5 o'clock this evening, unless the first minister Arlene Foster agrees to stand aside for a temporary inquiry into the "cash for ash" scandal - a demand that shows no sign of being honoured.
Last week Sinn Fein presented Foster with a set of proposals for how an independent inquiry into the botched Renewable Heat Initiative could get underway.
On Friday she responded by saying she could accept those proposals as the basis for further engagement - but refused to concede on the biggest demand, that she step aside while it got underway.
Sinn Féin insists her interim departure is the only way it can ensure a fair and thorough inquiry - but Foster says standing aside would be a concession of wrongdoing and prejudge the inquiry's findings.
McGuinness has now announced he will resign as of 5 o'clock this evening if Foster does not agree to stand down for an inquiry before then.
But with the DUP continuing to dig its heels, the signs are that Northern Ireland is heading for a snap election, possibly before the UK begins the process of invoking Article 50 and leaving the European Union.

[Mr White]

It's a dangerous game both sides are playing imo. It's got the potential to set things back a fair bit and with the looming problems that the effects of brexit are likely to stir up I'm not too confident of progress any time soon over here unfortunately.

[Hibrandenburg]

Rumour has it that he was going to stand down anyway due to pancreatic cancer. If true then it's a rather cynical ploy on Sinn Fèin's part.

[ronaldo7]

It's a dangerous game both sides are playing imo. It's got the potential to set things back a fair bit and with the looming problems that the effects of brexit are likely to stir up I'm not too confident of progress any time soon over here unfortunately.

:agree: I read a piece by Eamonn Mallie today. Things could get rather difficult, to say the least.

https://t.co/sxb88v5h1G

he finishes the piece with these words,

Sinn Fein is adamant it will not be party to structures as currently operated by the DUP.*
Sinn Fein might be presumptuous in thinking that the DUP would want to go back into government with it. This could be a double edged sword.
A political footnote: In August 1969 Gerry Fitt begged Home Secretary Jim Callaghan to send British troops into Northern Ireland to protect his beleaguered constituents.*
Jim Callaghan’s answer was prophetic: “I can get the army in but it’s going to be a devil of a job to get it out” he declared. ‘Operation Banner’ saw troops leave in July 2007.
Bringing down the current administration and government is the easy part. Putting it back up is going to be more problematical.
Arlene and Gerry Adams I remind you – Ash Wednesday is not that far away – March 1 – and ‘ The Ides of March’ come two weeks later. “Be ware!”

[ronaldo7]

Rumour has it that he was going to stand down anyway due to pancreatic cancer. If true then it's a rather cynical ploy on Sinn Fèin's part.

Not according to him today, although he would say that wouldn't he:greengrin

[Hibernia&Alba]

I haven't been following the story. What's the cash for ash scandal?

[ronaldo7]

I haven't been following the story. What's the cash for ash scandal?

http://www.thejournal.ie/what-is-cash-for-ash-scandal-3177793-Jan2017/

[Mr White]

I haven't been following the story. What's the cash for ash scandal?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-38307628

It's pretty bad. Arlene Foster was the minister in charge of it's inception and apparently repeatedly ignored advice that the scheme was full of holes and likely to be abused. Many grants given were much larger than the cost of fuel so you've got farmers heating empty barns across the provence and making a profit. It's already cost NI £450m more than it should have and that's going to increase over the years unless they sort it out.

[ronaldo7]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-38307628

It's pretty bad. Arlene Foster was the minister in charge of it's inception and apparently repeatedly ignored advice that the scheme was full of holes and likely to be abused. Many grants given were much larger than the cost of fuel so you've got farmers heating empty barns across the provence and making a profit. It's already cost NI £450m more than it should have and that's going to increase over the years unless they sort it out.

For every £1 spent on fuel, they received £1.60 in subsidies from the Government. Nobody went cold over there.

[Mr White]

For every £1 spent on fuel, they received £1.60 in subsidies from the Government. Nobody went cold over there.

There's been a few fraud charges brought already with more to follow apparently. It was for industrial and commercial buildings only but still, somebody ****ed the dog badly on this, despite plenty warnings that it was a car crash waiting to happen.

[Hibernia&Alba]

http://www.thejournal.ie/what-is-cash-for-ash-scandal-3177793-Jan2017/


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-38307628

It's pretty bad. Arlene Foster was the minister in charge of it's inception and apparently repeatedly ignored advice that the scheme was full of holes and likely to be abused. Many grants given were much larger than the cost of fuel so you've got farmers heating empty barns across the provence and making a profit. It's already cost NI £450m more than it should have and that's going to increase over the years unless they sort it out.


Right, thanks; I'll have a read about it.

[stantonhibby]

Not according to him today, although he would say that wouldn't he:greengrin

He didn't look in particularly good health on the news.

[ronaldo7]

He didn't look in particularly good health on the news.

:agree: Rather gaunt looking.

[wpj]

:agree: Rather gaunt looking.

There's been rumours about his health for a while but nothing official, missed a few key meetings over the last month or two.
Just hope this doesn't result in any negative actions, it has all come a long way for the better.

[DaveF]

:agree: Rather gaunt looking.

I thought he looked like death warmed up. Was also slightly shaky when speaking, so health wise, something isn't right.

[ronaldo7]

Public funds flowing to one side of the community rather than to all.

Anyone from Norn Irn have any more info on this? I've seen a list on #cashforsash on twitter that seems to indicate the DUP looking after their own.

https://t.co/wmJXVTlKiq

This is the list of community halls which received the funds.

17956

[Mr White]

Public funds flowing to one side of the community rather than to all.

Anyone from Norn Irn have any more info on this? I've seen a list on #cashforsash on twitter that seems to indicate the DUP looking after their own.

https://t.co/wmJXVTlKiq

This is the list of community halls which received the funds.

17956

I've got no time for extremists on either side of the argument over here but if the result of this particular abuse of power is that the DUP take a tanking at the next election then at least some good will have come out of it.

I was out for a few pints last night with a mate that grew up in an area of Bangor that has a strong UDA presence and his political views are fairly conservative and strongly unionist. He absolutely hates the DUP though and said he thinks this is going to be very damaging for them. I hope he's right.

[Mr White]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-38641857

[CropleyWasGod]

I've got no time for extremists on either side of the argument over here but if the result of this particular abuse of power is that the DUP take a tanking at the next election then at least some good will have come out of it.

I was out for a few pints last night with a mate that grew up in an area of Bangor that has a strong UDA presence and his political views are fairly conservative and strongly unionist. He absolutely hates the DUP though and said he thinks this is going to be very damaging for them. I hope he's right.
What's your take on how things will shape up in the election in the light of Brexit? Is reunification likely to be an issue, or is it too soon for that?

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[Mr White]

What's your take on how things will shape up in the election in the light of Brexit? Is reunification likely to be an issue, or is it too soon for that?

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I'm really not sure at all re the upcoming election tbh.

I'm worried about the overall consequences of brexit for NI though. Reunification will never be a viable option in my lifetime as far as I can see so anything that stirs up any renewed calls for it is just going to create more division and probably escalate tensions and hostility.

Teresa Villiers should have been replaced as NI secretary once she backed brexit though imo. That should never have been allowed to happen given the situation here. NI needs brexit like a bonfire needs petrol imo.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm really not sure at all re the upcoming election tbh.

I'm worried about the overall consequences of brexit for NI though. Reunification will never be a viable option in my lifetime as far as I can see so anything that stirs up any renewed calls for it is just going to create more division and probably escalate tensions and hostility.

Teresa Villiers should have been replaced as NI secretary once she backed brexit though imo. That should never have been allowed to happen given the situation here. NI needs brexit like a bonfire needs petrol imo.
Cheers for that.

So is there no alternative to Brexit in NI, in the way that we might have Indy2?

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[Mr White]

No I don't think there is. To me the vast majority of people here are fairly moderate but the lunatic fringe on both sides have a frightening amount of influence. Give those groups on either side enough reason to feel victimised and it won't take long to escalate back to the bad old days of the troubles. I hope I'm wrong there but that's my fear.

The relative equalibrium we have at the moment is about as good as it gets for now I suspect. Maintaining the power sharing agreement, hopefully with a different unionist element, is the best chance for peace I think.

[ronaldo7]

I've got no time for extremists on either side of the argument over here but if the result of this particular abuse of power is that the DUP take a tanking at the next election then at least some good will have come out of it.

I was out for a few pints last night with a mate that grew up in an area of Bangor that has a strong UDA presence and his political views are fairly conservative and strongly unionist. He absolutely hates the DUP though and said he thinks this is going to be very damaging for them. I hope he's right.

Thanks for that.:aok:

[ronaldo7]

Martin McGuinness not seeking re-election, citing being unable to go through a full campaign due to his illness.

https://t.co/6BN4mZKhRx

[Betty Boop]

What will happen to the Good Friday Agreement due to Brexit ? Surely under threat?

[wpj]

What will happen to the Good Friday Agreement due to Brexit ? Surely under threat?

Really hope not but that amongst other things may cause some folks to react. Be really sad if all the hard work fell through.

[Mr White]

What will happen to the Good Friday Agreement due to Brexit ? Surely under threat?

It's a can of worms for sure. There's been a few statements from various politicians saying it needn't be a big problem but any upheaval over here brings an element of risk. Also the various factions trying to take advantage and/or call foul as things evolve will definitely have an unsettling effect IMO.

The combination of uncertainty, change and assorted hot-headed bampots has the potential to cause a lot of problems. Just got to hope for the best I suppose.

[ronaldo7]

It's a can of worms for sure. There's been a few statements from various politicians saying it needn't be a big problem but any upheaval over here brings an element of risk. Also the various factions trying to take advantage and/or call foul as things evolve will definitely have an unsettling effect IMO.

The combination of uncertainty, change and assorted hot-headed bampots has the potential to cause a lot of problems. Just got to hope for the best I suppose.

There is Hope. Well done Mr Paisley.:aok:

https://t.co/SPfZgrYVSk

[Colr]

There is Hope. Well done Mr Paisley.:aok:

https://t.co/SPfZgrYVSk

Indeed! He's showing good leadership. What remains yet is who and what kind of person will step into McGuinness's shoes. Do they have anyone of the same magnitude or with similar credentials and influence with the hotter headed elements of the republican movement?

[Colr]

What will happen to the Good Friday Agreement due to Brexit ? Surely under threat?

That would be in nobody's interest. It will not be allowed to fall.

[Pretty Boy]

Indeed! He's showing good leadership. What remains yet is who and what kind of person will step into McGuinness's shoes. Do they have anyone of the same magnitude or with similar credentials and influence with the hotter headed elements of the republican movement?

Caral Ni Chuilin would seem the likely candidate with regards to engaging the dissident elements as a former Provisional IRA volunteer herself and an MLA for 10 years.

Whether she is 'reformed' enough and whether she was a bit too 'hands on' previously could be issues.

[Kavinho]

That would be in nobody's interest. It will not be allowed to fall.

It absolutely could fall.

If the uk govt determination to curb eu immigration holds, then logically it means border checkpoints. Border checkpoints that won't be accetpted or tolerated imo

[lord bunberry]

It absolutely could fall.

If the uk govt determination to curb eu immigration holds, then logically it means border checkpoints. Border checkpoints that won't be accetpted or tolerated imo
Of course it does. Without proper border checkpoints on the Irish border there can't be a limit on immigration. People would be entering illegally, but they would be here none the less.

[Kavinho]

Of course it does. Without proper border checkpoints on the Irish border there can't be a limit on immigration. People would be entering illegally, but they would be here none the less.

That clear binary choice should have been driven far harder in the run up to the referendum..

Imo the UK can't enforce its current border without creating a situation that could lead to a return to the troubles in Northern Ireland.

And it can't claim Eu immigration is controlled if it leaves its only overland boundary open as it currently is

[lord bunberry]

That clear binary choice should have been driven far harder in the run up to the referendum..

Imo the UK can't enforce its current border without creating a situation that could lead to a return to the troubles in Northern Ireland.

And it can't claim Eu immigration is controlled if it leaves its only overland boundary open as it currently is
Of course they can't. It's simple, anyone from the EU zone can enter Ireland, if there's no border controls between Ireland and the UK(Northern Ireland in this case) there's nothing to stop EU citizens entering Britain.

[Kojock]

Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams both murdering *******s who should have rotted in jail. Hope he suffers as much as his victims.

[northstandhibby]

God bless you Mr Mcguinness for the long agonising struggle you and your fellow folks had upon fighting against a brutal regime.

instead of lying down you fought against it. I'm sorry to hear you are in poor health now but you and other good folk took action against such people who would keep you down.

Glory Glory

[pacorosssco]

God bless you Mr Mcguinness for the long agonising struggle you and your fellow folks had upon fighting against a brutal regime.

instead of lying down you fought against it. I'm sorry to hear you are in poor health now but you and other good folk took action against such people who would keep you down.

Glory Glory

A post which already draws debate. British gov did highest amount of killing. Ira bombs were wrong but so was Bloody sunday. Blair responsible death millions of people .Hope doesnt see return to worse times

[Mr White]

This thread isn't really about the merits of republican paramilitary activity in the 70s or the civil rights breaches that many of them felt justified their actions.

It would be a shame if a thread about the current political upheaval in NI can't run on here without deteriorating into abusive or provocative statements about which side was more wrong during the troubles.

[Pretty Boy]

This thread isn't really about the merits of republican paramilitary activity in the 70s or the civil rights breaches that many of them felt justified their actions.

It would be a shame if a thread about the current political upheaval in NI can't run on here without deteriorating into abusive or provocative statements about which side was more wrong during the troubles.

Well said B.

There's plenty scope for a debate about the actions of the British Governement and the actions of Loyalist and Republican paramilitaries but this really isn't the thread for it.

[CropleyWasGod]

This thread isn't really about the merits of republican paramilitary activity in the 70s or the civil rights breaches that many of them felt justified their actions.

It would be a shame if a thread about the current political upheaval in NI can't run on here without deteriorating into abusive or provocative statements about which side was more wrong during the troubles.
Indeed. Paisley and McGuiness have moved on, and so should we.

If only the tribute acts in Scotland could do the same. [emoji48]

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[northstandhibby]

A post which already draws debate. British gov did highest amount of killing. Ira bombs were wrong but so was Bloody sunday. Blair responsible death millions of people .Hope doesnt see return to worse times

I totally agree.

It was encouraging to hear Mr McGuinness being lauded by opposition members such as Paisley and I'm sure everyone would wish the peace process to continue with calm measured and moderate debate. Everyone who approaches the NI issues with peace in their minds despite which side they may represent also would generate similar respect and goodwill.

If I had known I could have paid my respects to Mr McGuinness on this thread I would done so instead of starting a thread on main forum.

Apologies admins.

Glory Glory

[Betty Boop]

It's a can of worms for sure. There's been a few statements from various politicians saying it needn't be a big problem but any upheaval over here brings an element of risk. Also the various factions trying to take advantage and/or call foul as things evolve will definitely have an unsettling effect IMO.

The combination of uncertainty, change and assorted hot-headed bampots has the potential to cause a lot of problems. Just got to hope for the best I suppose.

Gerry Adams said that Brexit will destroy the Good Friday Agreement.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-northern-irealand-gerry-adams-sinn-fein-good-friday-agreement-peace-eu-a7539011.html

[Kavinho]

Gerry Adams said that Brexit will destroy the Good Friday Agreement.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-northern-irealand-gerry-adams-sinn-fein-good-friday-agreement-peace-eu-a7539011.html


I'm really struggling to see how it can't.


Northern Irish born, irish-siding citizens have citizenship of the Republic of Ireland.

How do you not alienate these people If you are forcing them through a checkpoint crossing from Newry to Dundalk for eg?

And if Theresa May doesn't set up a border, then she simply can't honour the brexit "take back control" mantra

[Mr White]

Gerry Adams said that Brexit will destroy the Good Friday Agreement.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-northern-irealand-gerry-adams-sinn-fein-good-friday-agreement-peace-eu-a7539011.html

I'm taking anything said by leading politicians over here with an even bigger pinch of salt than usual in the run up to the election in 6 weeks.

[Mr White]

I'm really struggling to see how it can't.


Northern Irish born, irish-siding citizens have citizenship of the Republic of Ireland.

How do you not alienate these people If you are forcing them through a checkpoint crossing from Newry to Dundalk for eg?

And if Theresa May doesn't set up a border, then she simply can't honour the brexit "take back control" mantra
She could set it up at Cairnryan and liverpool docks and classify flights from NI as requiring the same custom controls as those from the EU at British airports.

It would leave NI in a strange limbo with regards to illegal immigrants entering from ROI but that would be entirely preferable to any border control between NI and ROI imo.

[Betty Boop]

I'm really struggling to see how it can't.


Northern Irish born, irish-siding citizens have citizenship of the Republic of Ireland.

How do you not alienate these people If you are forcing them through a checkpoint crossing from Newry to Dundalk for eg?

And if Theresa May doesn't set up a border, then she simply can't honour the brexit "take back control" mantra

:agree: The Free Movement of People is dependant on no customs checks, so therefore customs checks would have a massive impact. If the UK leaves the customs union and the Freemarket a hard border will be unavoidable.

[Mr White]

:agree: The Free Movement of People is dependant on no customs checks, so therefore customs checks would have a massive impact. If the UK leaves the customs union and the Freemarket a hard border will be unavoidable.
There's a lot of negotiation and potential allowance to come before the word unavoidable can be applied to anything brexit related let alone the Irish side of things.

[Kavinho]

She could set it up at Cairnryan and liverpool docks and classify flights from NI as requiring the same custom controls as those from the EU at British airports.

It would leave NI in a strange limbo with regards to illegal immigrants entering from ROI but that would be entirely preferable to any border control between NI and ROI imo.


Youre probably right, but that would alienate unionist NI citizens just as much as it is effectively annexing NI from the mainland & could well lead on to a campaign to unite Ireland



Basically
She's got a very solid straight metal pole that she somehow has to get the 2 ends to meet..

[Mr White]

Youre probably right, but that would alienate unionist NI citizens just as much as it is effectively annexing NI from the mainland & could well lead on to a campaign to unite Ireland



Basically
She's got a very solid straight metal pole that she somehow has to get the 2 ends to meet..

She won't be able to please everyone I agree. However I'd like to think that there will be more support amongst the unionist community here for having to flash your uk passport at a designated UK citizens side of customs at Cairnryan port for example than the alternative (I mean the level headed majority rather than the ones that started chucking petrol bombs when the union flag stopped flapping on a daily basis at Belfast City Hall)

It's all conjecture at this point anyway but a land border in Ireland would be a far bigger upheaval to more individuals and businesses although I accept that either option has the potential to fan the flames of division and aggression on whichever side perceives itself to be hard done by. As I said earlier in the thread Brexit is bad news for NI.

[Kavinho]

She won't be able to please everyone I agree. However I'd like to think that there will be more support amongst the unionist community here for having to flash your uk passport at a designated UK citizens side of customs at Cairnryan port for example than the alternative (I mean the level headed majority rather than the ones that started chucking petrol bombs when the union flag stopped flapping on a daily basis at Belfast City Hall)

It's all conjecture at this point anyway but a land border in Ireland would be a far bigger upheaval to more individuals and businesses although I accept that either option has the potential to fan the flames of division and aggression on whichever side perceives itself to be hard done by. As I said earlier in the thread Brexit is bad news for NI.

My greatest concern is that she's not interested in trying to appease everybody.

[northstandhibby]

My greatest concern is that she's not interested in trying to appease everybody.

There must be some overarching ideology of how in principle they will approach these issues in respect of just a few of the potential problems highlighted.

I strongly suspect they the authorities knew beforehand how the brexit vote would turnout. I am highly sceptical of the pollsters getting it so wrong among other things.

I would think the think tanks/committees that work behind the scenes plotting out pathways have been busy sketching out ideas of how they want such issues to play out in correlation with their core beliefs and ideology.

I'm very surprised Labour have not come out as a true opposition and opposed brexit in every aspect of it. They appear to be in tune with leaving the EU and all of its benefits. I appreciate they may be of the mind of appearing to believe in democracy however it leaves a huge void for the moderate remainers. I would have thought they should have opposed brexit in all of its entity, spell out all of the benefits of being part of an open EU and been a true opposition.

The little englanders are now firmly in charge and I'm afraid they will turn the clock backwards with a puritanical approach.

Glory Glory

[Kavinho]

There must be some overarching ideology of how in principle they will approach these issues in respect of just a few of the potential problems highlighted.

I strongly suspect they the authorities knew beforehand how the brexit vote would turnout. I am highly sceptical of the pollsters getting it so wrong among other things.

I would think the think tanks/committees that work behind the scenes plotting out pathways have been busy sketching out ideas of how they want such issues to play out in correlation with their core beliefs and ideology.

I'm very surprised Labour have not come out as a true opposition and opposed brexit in every aspect of it. They appear to be in tune with leaving the EU and all of its benefits. I appreciate they may be of the mind of appearing to believe in democracy however it leaves a huge void for the moderate remainers. I would have thought they should have opposed brexit in all of its entity, spell out all of the benefits of being part of an open EU and been a true opposition.

The little englanders are now firmly in charge and I'm afraid they will turn the clock backwards with a puritanical approach.

Glory Glory

Yes but in a choice of 1 or 0 you can't pick 0.5.

With either 1 or 0, either they'll upset one side or the other, and both are flammable enough in NI to start a fire in a deep freezer.


Northern Ireland can't be in and out of Europe, and Theresa Msy has made it clear she's not entertaining SNP proposals for Scotland either.

I genuinely believe the 'leave the EU' vote has drastically sped up the decline and ultimate death of the Union, and Northern Ireland will be where that collapse begins.

[Pretty Boy]

Yes but in a choice of 1 or 0 you can't pick 0.5.

With either 1 or 0, either they'll upset one side or the other, and both are flammable enough in NI to start a fire in a deep freezer.


Northern Ireland can't be in and out of Europe, and Theresa Msy has made it clear she's not entertaining SNP proposals for Scotland either.

I genuinely believe the 'leave the EU' vote has drastically sped up the decline and ultimate death of the Union, and Northern Ireland will be where it that collapse begins.

I think the EU vote has laid bare the fractures that already existed with the union.

Since the collapse of the Tory vote in Scotland in the 80s a sizeable minority of Scots have questioned our role within the union and whether we are treated as an equal partner. Whilst in NI for the mainstream since the late 90s and early 00s maintaining peace and building a future have been priorities, the EU vote has put that fragile peace into the spotlight.

The real problem is that the issues that impact Scotland, Northern Ireland, England and Wales are disparate and pleasing such a diverse range of opinion is impossible.

[northstandhibby]

I think the EU vote has laid bare the fractures that already existed with the union.

Since the collapse of the Tory vote in Scotland in the 80s a sizeable minority of Scots have questioned our role within the union and whether we are treated as an equal partner. Whilst in NI for the mainstream since the late 90s and early 00s maintaining peace and building a future have been priorities, the EU vote has put that fragile peace into the spotlight.

The real problem is that the issues that impact Scotland, Northern Ireland, England and Wales are disparate and pleasing such a diverse range of opinion is impossible.

Correct. Albeit devolution which was put to the public as being the answer to the grumblings of a remote Westminster turned out for Scotland to be the exact opposite as a separatist one party state has emerged. The independence vote similar to the recent EU vote divided Scotland and now the UK has faced its own fractious vote that divided the entire country. However the Scottish indie vote was supposedly a 'once in a lifetime' situation but following on from the EU vote with its consequences of a hard brexit the situation has created an opportunity for the SNP to seek another indie vote.

Now the EU vote has fractured the underlying bedrock of the wider UK I predict unless a 'way' can be found to regain the initiative for a 'soft' brexit, Nicola Sturgeon will make good on her likelihood of another indie vote and I think this time the SNP would win it with the alternative of staying put with a bunch of extreme right wing tories too repulsive for the Scottish folk who voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU.

Scotland would then apply to join the EU as a separate sovereign nation adopting the Euro and becoming full EU members.

What would happen with Wales and NI in that situation? Could a UK without Scotland survive?

I doubt it very much indeed. I think only possibly England could survive as a tax haven country outside of the EU possibly carrying Wales with a united Ireland the answer to the NI situation.

A great deal of uncertainty has emerged with May's hard brexit with many huge issues to be argued over. The consequences could dramatically change the UK.

Glory Glory

[Hibrandenburg]

Not good!

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-38712776

[Pretty Boy]

Michelle O'Neill appointed new Sinn Fein leader in Northern Ireland.

[ronaldo7]

Michelle O'Neill appointed new Sinn Fein leader in Northern Ireland.

A rising star within the party, She will have a testing time over the next few weeks. I hope she can steer her party into a new power sharing executive.

[The Pointer]

Given the history of the place I hope much time is spent trying to find a solution, but given the history of the place I think there will be neither the will nor the willingness to do so. It has always been the way to find reasons for not getting together and while the GFA wasn't great, it was the best they were ever going to get. Sadly the DUP messed up, the Shinners took the huff and this is the result.

As for McGuinness, he caused much pain so many will be hoping he goes slowly.

[Mr White]

Given the history of the place I hope much time is spent trying to find a solution, but given the history of the place I think there will be neither the will nor the willingness to do so. It has always been the way to find reasons for not getting together and while the GFA wasn't great, it was the best they were ever going to get. Sadly the DUP messed up, the Shinners took the huff and this is the result.

As for McGuinness, he caused much pain so many will be hoping he goes slowly.

There's a lot more to it than that though. Until the results of the snap election it's impossible to say how things are likely to pan out.

As for Martin McGuiness... you're right imo but the converse is that his and Ian Paisley's friendship and working together gave this place a peace and stability it hadn't seen for generations. If we're going to move forward we all have to forgive the past. MM and IP managed to do that sincerely and effectively imo. I hope for my children's sake that the next lot to govern manage to do the same as there is a bumpy road ahead.

[Mr White]

I've actually met the guy who's going to chair the inquiry into the RHI scandal, my father in law knows him well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-38737190

[Hibernia&Alba]

Michelle O'Neill appointed new Sinn Fein leader in Northern Ireland.

Come on, who else thinks MILF when she's on the telly? :greengrin

One of the sexiest politicians :agree:

[ronaldo7]

It looks like Sinn Fein have done remarkably well in the NI elections. Even with the Parliament going from 108 seats down to 90, they have reached to within 1 seat of the DUP.

The parliamentary protocol of using the "Petition of Concern", has now been removed from the DUP, leaving the field for the progressives to take forward new legislation on the Irish Language, and Gay rights.


This from a link by Peter Geoghegan. https://t.co/pXyxR3zjbj


The DUP’s share of the vote only fell by a little over one percentage point, but that was enough to ensure a series of high-profile losses, including former minister Nelson McCausland and party chairman Lord Morrow. Possibly even more significantly, with just 28 seats, the DUP is two short of the total needed to lodge a ‘petition of concern’ — a measure that allows parties to block legislation that, at least nominally, could negatively affect one community. The DUP has used the petition of concern 86 times in just five years, often to stymie gay marriage and other minority rights.

The challenge is now whether both of the main parties can work together or will we be up for another election in a few weeks time.

[Mr White]

It looks like Sinn Fein have done remarkably well in the NI elections. Even with the Parliament going from 108 seats down to 90, they have reached to within 1 seat of the DUP.

The parliamentary protocol of using the "Petition of Concern", has now been removed from the DUP, leaving the field for the progressives to take forward new legislation on the Irish Language, and Gay rights.


This from a link by Peter Geoghegan. https://t.co/pXyxR3zjbj


The DUP’s share of the vote only fell by a little over one percentage point, but that was enough to ensure a series of high-profile losses, including former minister Nelson McCausland and party chairman Lord Morrow. Possibly even more significantly, with just 28 seats, the DUP is two short of the total needed to lodge a ‘petition of concern’ — a measure that allows parties to block legislation that, at least nominally, could negatively affect one community. The DUP has used the petition of concern 86 times in just five years, often to stymie gay marriage and other minority rights.

The challenge is now whether both of the main parties can work together or will we be up for another election in a few weeks time.
My prediction is another election followed by direct rule. They're both as bad as each other and the current leadership of both parties simply won't work together.

[ronaldo7]

My prediction is another election followed by direct rule. They're both as bad as each other and the current leadership of both parties simply won't work together.

I'd agree. I think Sinn Fein will continue with the request for Arlene Foster to step aside whilst the Ash for cash inquest gets going. This will be the one issue that will stall the talks.

Direct rule will bring out the more unsavoury elements of the North.

[Mr White]

Direct rule will bring out the more unsavoury elements of the North.

:agree: 100%

[JackLadd]

Come on, who else thinks MILF when she's on the telly? :greengrin

One of the sexiest politicians :agree:


easier on the eye than our terrible trio.

[Mr White]

Martin McGuinness has died.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-39185899

[heretoday]

There will be a volley of differing verdicts on his career. Perhaps it's appropriate to say that in Ulster you couldn't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

[Mr White]

There will be a volley of differing verdicts on his career. Perhaps it's appropriate to say that in Ulster you couldn't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

He did a lot of good things in later life. The partnership he forged with Ian Paisley Snr was a massive step forward symbolicly and laid the foundations for a decade of near stability. It feels ominously like slipping back a bit now to me and those involved in the current stand-off would do well to follow the example set by McGuinness and Paisley in setting aside their differences and working together for the greater good imo.

[Flanny boy]

He did a lot of good things in later life. The partnership he forged with Ian Paisley Snr was a massive step forward symbolicly and laid the foundations for a decade of near stability. It feels ominously like slipping back a bit now to me and those involved in the current stand-off would do well to follow the example set by McGuinness and Paisley in setting aside their differences and working together for the greater good imo.This 100%

[TheReg!]

Rest in Hell Mr McGuinness. I, along with the families who suffered at your hands will have a wee dram tonight.

[Pretty Boy]

It's debateable whether NI would enjoy the peace, fragile or otherwise, it does now without the contribution of Martin McGuinness.

Whatever peoples views on his earlier life, his role in later developments was crucial.

[The Pointer]

Martin McGuinness has died.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-39185899

Being the BBC there will be much nauseating comment on his 'good points', such as Peter Hains' ironic 'family man' on the radio this morning. At least they had the decency to interview the chap McConville about the disappeared of his sister first.

Oh dear, what a shame.

[Geo_1875]

Being the BBC there will be much nauseating comment on his 'good points', such as Peter Hains' ironic 'family man' on the radio this morning. At least they had the decency to interview the chap McConville about the disappeared of his sister first.

Oh dear, what a shame.

And yet Nelson Mandela was a good guy.

[The Pointer]

Rest in Hell Mr McGuinness. I, along with the families who suffered at your hands will have a wee dram tonight.

Have a 'like'.

I also had him in the office Dead Pool so will be joining you in having a dram.

[steakbake]

He did a lot of good things in later life. The partnership he forged with Ian Paisley Snr was a massive step forward symbolicly and laid the foundations for a decade of near stability. It feels ominously like slipping back a bit now to me and those involved in the current stand-off would do well to follow the example set by McGuinness and Paisley in setting aside their differences and working together for the greater good imo.

Totally agree.

[pontius pilate]

Rest in Hell Mr McGuinness. I, along with the families who suffered at your hands will have a wee dram tonight.

I can only concur my good man. I won't be raising a glass for him or any others like him.

[ronaldo7]

He did a lot of good things in later life. The partnership he forged with Ian Paisley Snr was a massive step forward symbolicly and laid the foundations for a decade of near stability. It feels ominously like slipping back a bit now to me and those involved in the current stand-off would do well to follow the example set by McGuinness and Paisley in setting aside their differences and working together for the greater good imo.

Spot on.

[Pretty Boy]

You probably have to look at McGuinness as 2 different men to really assess his life. One is the young man who was attracted to the IRA in response to the mistreatment of 'his people' in his local community as a youngster. Whilst it's not difficult to condemn the actions of the IRA I don't believe their cause was any less valid than that of the British government. There's no doubt that during that period he was responsible, indirectly or otherwise, for deaths, kidnappings and acts of violence. He has admitted as much on record.

Equally it has to be recognised that people can change. He was courted by the governement as early as the 80s as a potential 'ally' in peace negotiations. He was crucial in securing the Good Friday agreement, he played his part in the decomissioning of IRA weapon stockpiles, he entered into government with a previously sworn enemy and in later years he unequivocally denounced dissident republicans. His relationship with Ian Paisley (note his families comments today) and his handshake(s) with the Queen were deeply symbolic and hugely important.

Life isn't all black and white and I view Martin McGuinness as neither a bloodthirsty terrorist or a whiter than white peacemaker. There are grey areas in bringing about change and people themselves can change. Had the likes of Paisley, McGuinness and Adams not been willing to change and, for lack of a better word, forgive then NI would be in a far darker place than it is now. The troubles preceded each of them, it's in no small part thanks to their efforts that they haven't succeeded them.

[Mr White]

You probably have to look at McGuinness as 2 different men to really assess his life. One is the young man who was attracted to the IRA in response to the mistreatment of 'his people' in his local community as a youngster. Whilst it's not difficult to condemn the actions of the IRA I don't believe their cause was any less valid than that of the British government. There's no doubt that during that period he was responsible, indirectly or otherwise, for deaths, kidnappings and acts of violence. He has admitted as much on record.

Equally it has to be recognised that people can change. He was courted by the governement as early as the 80s as a potential 'ally' in peace negotiations. He was crucial in securing the Good Friday agreement, he played his part in the decomissioning of IRA weapon stockpiles, he entered into government with a previously sworn enemy and in later years he unequivocally denounced dissident republicans. His relationship with Ian Paisley (note his families comments today) and his handshake(s) with the Queen were deeply symbolic and hugely important.

Life isn't all black and white and I view Martin McGuinness as neither a bloodthirsty terrorist or a whiter than white peacemaker. There are grey areas in bringing about change and people themselves can change. Had the likes of Paisley, McGuinness and Adams not been willing to change and, for lack of a better word, forgive then NI would be in a far darker place than it is now. The troubles preceded each of them, it's in no small part thanks to their efforts that they haven't succeeded them.
Great post PB.

[hibs#1]

You probably have to look at McGuinness as 2 different men to really assess his life. One is the young man who was attracted to the IRA in response to the mistreatment of 'his people' in his local community as a youngster. Whilst it's not difficult to condemn the actions of the IRA I don't believe their cause was any less valid than that of the British government. There's no doubt that during that period he was responsible, indirectly or otherwise, for deaths, kidnappings and acts of violence. He has admitted as much on record.

Equally it has to be recognised that people can change. He was courted by the governement as early as the 80s as a potential 'ally' in peace negotiations. He was crucial in securing the Good Friday agreement, he played his part in the decomissioning of IRA weapon stockpiles, he entered into government with a previously sworn enemy and in later years he unequivocally denounced dissident republicans. His relationship with Ian Paisley (note his families comments today) and his handshake(s) with the Queen were deeply symbolic and hugely important.

Life isn't all black and white and I view Martin McGuinness as neither a bloodthirsty terrorist or a whiter than white peacemaker. There are grey areas in bringing about change and people themselves can change. Had the likes of Paisley, McGuinness and Adams not been willing to change and, for lack of a better word, forgive then NI would be in a far darker place than it is now. The troubles preceded each of them, it's in no small part thanks to their efforts that they haven't succeeded them.

Expertly put.as you say it would be unfair as totally evil or saintly.

[JimBHibees]

You probably have to look at McGuinness as 2 different men to really assess his life. One is the young man who was attracted to the IRA in response to the mistreatment of 'his people' in his local community as a youngster. Whilst it's not difficult to condemn the actions of the IRA I don't believe their cause was any less valid than that of the British government. There's no doubt that during that period he was responsible, indirectly or otherwise, for deaths, kidnappings and acts of violence. He has admitted as much on record.

Equally it has to be recognised that people can change. He was courted by the governement as early as the 80s as a potential 'ally' in peace negotiations. He was crucial in securing the Good Friday agreement, he played his part in the decomissioning of IRA weapon stockpiles, he entered into government with a previously sworn enemy and in later years he unequivocally denounced dissident republicans. His relationship with Ian Paisley (note his families comments today) and his handshake(s) with the Queen were deeply symbolic and hugely important.

Life isn't all black and white and I view Martin McGuinness as neither a bloodthirsty terrorist or a whiter than white peacemaker. There are grey areas in bringing about change and people themselves can change. Had the likes of Paisley, McGuinness and Adams not been willing to change and, for lack of a better word, forgive then NI would be in a far darker place than it is now. The troubles preceded each of them, it's in no small part thanks to their efforts that they haven't succeeded them.

Very good post.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

you really need to consider the circumstances in which he was raised to consider his actions in the Troubles. He grew up in a city where he was less than equal, he could not effect the political establishment peaceful as it was not one man one vote, he couldn't get a job as a catholic very easily (story about him asking for a job in a unionist area for Derry and being refused when the manager found out his name was McGuinness), very few catholics owned their homes etc etc. It's easy to see where the Provisional IRA would gain so much support from and where a 21 year old laddie would be inspired to join up from.

Despite this, i do not condone the actions of the Provisional IRA as many many lives were lost in the North and throughout the UK and republic of ireland. however i think a lot of people forget the UVF and loyalist paramilitaries were exactly the same during the troubles, arguably worse as they defended the sectarian status quo.

Despite his actions he played a major part in the peace process which may not have ever materialised had he not been in the IRA, so he should be respected for his post troubles actions and his partnership with Ian Paisley post troubles was symbolic of progress in Ulster. For that he deserves credit and respect. RIP Mr McGuinness

[Hibernia&Alba]

You probably have to look at McGuinness as 2 different men to really assess his life. One is the young man who was attracted to the IRA in response to the mistreatment of 'his people' in his local community as a youngster. Whilst it's not difficult to condemn the actions of the IRA I don't believe their cause was any less valid than that of the British government. There's no doubt that during that period he was responsible, indirectly or otherwise, for deaths, kidnappings and acts of violence. He has admitted as much on record.

Equally it has to be recognised that people can change. He was courted by the governement as early as the 80s as a potential 'ally' in peace negotiations. He was crucial in securing the Good Friday agreement, he played his part in the decomissioning of IRA weapon stockpiles, he entered into government with a previously sworn enemy and in later years he unequivocally denounced dissident republicans. His relationship with Ian Paisley (note his families comments today) and his handshake(s) with the Queen were deeply symbolic and hugely important.

Life isn't all black and white and I view Martin McGuinness as neither a bloodthirsty terrorist or a whiter than white peacemaker. There are grey areas in bringing about change and people themselves can change. Had the likes of Paisley, McGuinness and Adams not been willing to change and, for lack of a better word, forgive then NI would be in a far darker place than it is now. The troubles preceded each of them, it's in no small part thanks to their efforts that they haven't succeeded them.

I very much agree with you, PB, and think you've captured the nuance. Much depends upon one's standpoint on a very complex issue. I think the key word is probably change: from the teenager who joined PIRA in Derry, to deputy first minister and chats with the queen is some journey. The optimist in me would like to think it's an example of the human capacity for reflection and change. Those who grow up in the extraordinary circumstances of a civil war must ask themselves what their lives would have been like had they been born into a normal society, and, similarly, those of us who haven't experienced such extremes should ponder how we would have reacted to those circumstances. I don't think I would have ever joined a paramilitary organisation, but how can I be certain? We don't know where fate can take us.

Nobody can criticise those who lost loved ones during the Troubles and who aren't able to forgive people like McGuinness. As a leading figure in PIRA, innocent people died because of activity he either directly participated in, sanctioned or tried to justify, and that can't be whitewashed. But I think PB is right to say the peace process couldn't have happened without figures like McGuinness - people who put their lives at risk - for the sake of a peaceful settlement. It took courage within Republicanism and Loyalism to make historic compromises for peace, yet as a consequence, there are people alive in Northern Ireland today who would otherwise be dead; and of course, because of the Troubles there are many dead who should still be alive.

Hopefully, the lasting legacy of Martin McGuinness will be his major contribution to securing long term peace. It was some life he lived; a complex story which is yet to be fully revealed. Now he's dead we might get a biography which gives a more complete picture.

[Mr White]

I very much agree with you, PB, and think you've captured the nuance. Much depends upon one's standpoint on a very complex issue. I think the key word is probably change: from the teenager who joined PIRA in Derry, to deputy first minister and chats with the queen is some journey. The optimist in me would like to think it's an example of the human capacity for reflection and change. Those who grow up in the extraordinary circumstances of a civil war must ask themselves what their lives would have been like had they been born into a normal society, and, similarly, those of us who haven't experienced such extremes should ponder how we would have reacted to those circumstances. I don't think I would have ever joined a paramilitary organisation, but how can I be certain? We don't know where fate can take us.

Nobody can criticise those who lost loved ones during the Troubles and who aren't able to forgive people like McGuinness. As a leading figure in PIRA, innocent people died because of activity he either directly participated in, sanctioned or tried to justify, and that can't be whitewashed. But I think PB is right to say the peace process couldn't have happened without figures like McGuinness - people who put their lives at risk - for the sake of a peaceful settlement. It took courage within Republicanism and Loyalism to make historic compromises for peace, yet as a consequence, there are people alive in Northern Ireland today who would otherwise be dead; and of course, because of the Troubles there are many dead who should still be alive.

Hopefully, the lasting legacy of Martin McGuinness will be his major contribution to securing long term peace. It was some life he lived; a complex story which is yet to be fully revealed. Now he's dead we might get a biography which gives a more complete picture.

That is also a very good post H&A, I agree with every word.

[BullsCloseHibs]

Just heard Tebbit on news, obviously having a cheap go at the deceased, but couldn't help himself ridiculing Blair in the process.

Sore Tory LOSER.

[Hibrandenburg]

I very much agree with you, PB, and think you've captured the nuance. Much depends upon one's standpoint on a very complex issue. I think the key word is probably change: from the teenager who joined PIRA in Derry, to deputy first minister and chats with the queen is some journey. The optimist in me would like to think it's an example of the human capacity for reflection and change. Those who grow up in the extraordinary circumstances of a civil war must ask themselves what their lives would have been like had they been born into a normal society, and, similarly, those of us who haven't experienced such extremes should ponder how we would have reacted to those circumstances. I don't think I would have ever joined a paramilitary organisation, but how can I be certain? We don't know where fate can take us.

Nobody can criticise those who lost loved ones during the Troubles and who aren't able to forgive people like McGuinness. As a leading figure in PIRA, innocent people died because of activity he either directly participated in, sanctioned or tried to justify, and that can't be whitewashed. But I think PB is right to say the peace process couldn't have happened without figures like McGuinness - people who put their lives at risk - for the sake of a peaceful settlement. It took courage within Republicanism and Loyalism to make historic compromises for peace, yet as a consequence, there are people alive in Northern Ireland today who would otherwise be dead; and of course, because of the Troubles there are many dead who should still be alive.

Hopefully, the lasting legacy of Martin McGuinness will be his major contribution to securing long term peace. It was some life he lived; a complex story which is yet to be fully revealed. Now he's dead we might get a biography which gives a more complete picture.

I'm not so sure that McGuinness went through the transformation because of a change of philosophy like is being widely depicted. The IRA were militarily on the verge of defeat and were also under massive political pressure to end their campaign.

There's a good chance and an argument to be made that both Adams and McGuinness embraced the peace process for reasons of self preservation.

[Sir David Gray]

I'll remember him as someone who failed to ever apologise for his own personal involvement in an organisation that was responsible for some of the worst atrocities that have ever been committed on British soil against innocent civilians. He also failed to ever shed any light on what he knew from his past.

Yes he did manage to make a positive contribution during his latter years but his prominent involvement within the IRA over many years cannot and should not be ignored and he's personally not someone who I will ever respect or remember fondly.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'll remember him as someone who failed to ever apologise for his own personal involvement in an organisation that was responsible for some of the worst atrocities that have ever been committed on British soil against innocent civilians. He also failed to ever shed any light on what he knew from his past.

Yes he did manage to make a positive contribution during his latter years but his prominent involvement within the IRA over many years cannot and should not be ignored and he's personally not someone who I will ever respect or remember fondly.
How would an apology have been taken? I'm sure that those people who hated him would have dismissed it as empty rhetoric.

As an aside, as I don't know....did Nelson Mandela apologise for the actions of the ANC?

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Hibernia&Alba]

I'm not so sure that McGuinness went through the transformation because of a change of philosophy like is being widely depicted. The IRA were militarily on the verge of defeat and were also under massive political pressure to end their campaign.

There's a good chance and an argument to be made that both Adams and McGuinness embraced the peace process for reasons of self preservation.

From what I've read, the situation in the early nineties was more one of stalemate, with no prospect of a final military solution on any side, hence the change of tactic. It certainly wasn't an epiphany towards pacifism within Republicanism, but a recognition of the reality of the situation: armed struggle could go on indefinitely without any progress towards a united Ireland.

[Mr White]

From what I've read, the situation in the early nineties was more one of stalemate, with no prospect of a final military solution on any side, hence the change of tactic. It certainly wasn't an epiphany towards pacifism within Republicanism, but a recognition of the reality of the situation: armed struggle could go on indefinitely without any progress towards a united Ireland.

They also managed to negotiate some fairly far reaching aspects within the peace agreement for a movement on the verge of military defeat.

[ColinNish]

How would an apology have been taken? I'm sure that those people who hated him would have dismissed it as empty rhetoric.

As an aside, as I don't know....did Nelson Mandela apologise for the actions of the ANC?

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Another terrorist, depending on which way you want to look at it.

[steakbake]

Another terrorist, depending on which way you want to look at it.

If I saw Mandela as a terrorist, that would give me something in common with the apartheid government of the time.

[ronaldo7]

I'm not so sure that McGuinness went through the transformation because of a change of philosophy like is being widely depicted. The IRA were militarily on the verge of defeat and were also under massive political pressure to end their campaign.

There's a good chance and an argument to be made that both Adams and McGuinness embraced the peace process for reasons of self preservation.

They certainly had enough arms to keep it going. They'd been infiltrated by the spooks, and it sort of spooked them.

De-commissioning of arms took some years.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/sep/26/northernireland.northernireland1

[Vini1875]

RIP. Fought for his people in war and peace

[theonlywayisup]

Just heard Tebbit on news, obviously having a cheap go at the deceased, but couldn't help himself ridiculing Blair in the process.

Sore Tory LOSER.

If your wife was paralysed by an IRA bomb and you were left scarred would you be any different?

I would probably be less diplomatic.

[theonlywayisup]

RIP. Fought for his people in war and peace

Not sure the many victims would say RIP.

What we all need to remember is the environment he grew up in. Extremely difficult for many reasons. It's difficult for me brought up in the east of Scotland to understand the hatred they would have for the UK. I'm sure he and his generation would rather kill a protestant than shake their hand.

Which makes what he did in later years more remarkable.

RIP - no but he is a major reason why Northern Ireland is in peace at the moment.

[ColinNish]

If I saw Mandela as a terrorist, that would give me something in common with the apartheid government of the time.

Good for you. 👏👏

[Pretty Boy]

If your wife was paralysed by an IRA bomb and you were left scarred would you be any different?

I would probably be less diplomatic.

I find it quite interesting hearing the differing views of victims of IRA attacks. Some, like Tebbit, have been clear in their views. Others have shown a remarkable ability to forgive.

A few have been quite clear that Tebbit, his ingrained prejudices and all, don't represent them.

[Sergey]

I find it quite interesting hearing the differing views of victims of IRA attacks. Some, like Tebbit, have been clear in their views. Others have shown a remarkable ability to forgive.

A few have been quite clear that Tebbit, his ingrained prejudices and all, don't represent them.

:agree:

Tebbit was a w***er of the highest order and the day I feel sympathy for that ilk is the day I finally lose the plot completely.

BTW - the above statement is nothing to do with my ideals or feelings towards McGuinness and/or the PIRA - just my passing judgement of Tebbit.

[IWasThere2016]

I was at the Euros with a very good friend of his and ex-IRA 'high rank officer' Paddy Murtagh. Extraordinary stories told.

I think PB sums it up nicely, these men changed and changed for the better obviously - but their crimes shouldn't be forgotten nor necessarily forgiven either.

[Blackfordhibby]

Rest in Hell Mr McGuinness. I, along with the families who suffered at your hands will have a wee dram tonight.

This

[steakbake]

Good for you. 👏👏

They weren't exactly listening to reason and for sitting down for polite talks with the people they were brutally oppressing, but I suppose you would be too young to remember. Or at least that's the impression you give.

[ekhibee]

Just heard Tebbit on news, obviously having a cheap go at the deceased, but couldn't help himself ridiculing Blair in the process.

Sore Tory LOSER.
Well his wife was permanently disabled during the Brighton bombing, so from that point of view I can totally see where he's coming from, but at the same time I can't really think of any politicians I disliked more than Tebbit and Thatcher.

[greenlex]

Reading all these posts my overriding feeling is how absolutely stupid and ultimately futile armed struggle over diplomacy is. God forbid Scotlands Sons and Daughters ever thought that the bullet over the ballot box was the answer to their political and social beliefs.

[Dashing Bob S]

Reading all these posts my overriding feeling is how absolutely stupid and ultimately futile armed struggle over diplomacy is. God forbid Scotlands Sons and Daughters ever thought that the bullet over the ballot box was the answer to their political and social beliefs.

Not really. The sad thing is that history often shows that it often takes both to effect social change.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Reading all these posts my overriding feeling is how absolutely stupid and ultimately futile armed struggle over diplomacy is. God forbid Scotlands Sons and Daughters ever thought that the bullet over the ballot box was the answer to their political and social beliefs.
Meh, have to agree to an extent, however in some instances the ballot box wasn't an option due to voting regulations

[CropleyWasGod]

Reading all these posts my overriding feeling is how absolutely stupid and ultimately futile armed struggle over diplomacy is. God forbid Scotlands Sons and Daughters ever thought that the bullet over the ballot box was the answer to their political and social beliefs.
Not sure that history would agree on its futility. Whilst diplomacy is often the end result, it can take violence and intimidation of the perceived oppressor to get to that stage.

That's what happened in NI, in South Africa, in Israel and in many other situations throughout history.

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[Colr]

From what I've read, the situation in the early nineties was more one of stalemate, with no prospect of a final military solution on any side, hence the change of tactic. It certainly wasn't an epiphany towards pacifism within Republicanism, but a recognition of the reality of the situation: armed struggle could go on indefinitely without any progress towards a united Ireland.

But isn't it interesting that, as a result of an English ballot preference for Brexit, Ireland is now closer to unification than its been since it was partitioned?

If NI hadn't had the experience of economic growth following the peace deal, I doubt the debate would have been framred in terms of well being but in terms of factionalism.

[greenlex]

Perhaps the word I was looking for was waste.

[CropleyWasGod]

Perhaps the word I was looking for was waste.

Yeah, it's fair comment.

But, the same is said about any war. Do the ends justify the "waste"?

That's a 100-pager in itself.

[Sir David Gray]

How would an apology have been taken? I'm sure that those people who hated him would have dismissed it as empty rhetoric.

As an aside, as I don't know....did Nelson Mandela apologise for the actions of the ANC?

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

People who are fundamentally opposed to something or someone will always find a reason to criticise. If McGuinness had ever apologised for his involvement with the IRA then that particular criticism could not have been levelled at him.

However not only did McGuinness never apologise for his involvement with the IRA, little over a year ago he actually said he was proud of his past involvement within the IRA.

I think that tells you a lot about the man. He and Gerry Adams have innocent blood on their hands and the least they could have done was apologise for their part they personally played in the IRA's campaign of terrorist attacks. The fact that we've got people on here having digs at Lord Tebbit for being critical of McGuinness after what happened to him and his wife in the Brighton Bombing is quite incredible.

[Betty Boop]

Huge crowds out on the streets for the funeral. Bill Clinton attending.

[Allant1981]

guy was a killer, pure and simple. No sympathy at all

[Hibernia&Alba]

guy was a killer, pure and simple. No sympathy at all

It's totally understandable that those who lost loved ones because of PIRA violence should feel that way; inexcusable acts of murder were carried on all sides, but there's a complex and tragic back story too. His role in bringing the killing to an end was also very important. People are alive today because of the peace process.

[ronaldo7]

Just watched Channel 4 news on the funeral today, where thousands from the bogside came to say goodbye to Martin McGuinness.

Nice to see Arlene Foster, and Bill Clinton there as well.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Life isn't all black and white and I view Martin McGuinness as neither a bloodthirsty terrorist or a whiter than white peacemaker. There are grey areas in bringing about change and people themselves can change. Had the likes of Paisley, McGuinness and Adams not been willing to change and, for lack of a better word, forgive then NI would be in a far darker place than it is now. The troubles preceded each of them, it's in no small part thanks to their efforts that they haven't succeeded them.

i think you arr spot on PB.

I like the fact he is confounding the usual trite, media reaction to someones death. He is a study in what it is to be human, and obviously had the capacity for great cruelty /callousness / ruthlesness but also to get past that as he grew up.

I dont condemn him, i can totally see how any young man brought up in that era, on that wrong side of an apartheid state with no recourse to democracy would be atttacted to fighting back. I couldnt guarentee that i wouldnt do the same in thr wrong circumstances?

That he eventually came around to peacful methods, amd brought the majority of his organisation with him was an enormous step.

If NI goes on to have a peaceful future, he will go down as one of the architects of that, in the same way as numerous terrorists turned statesman across the world.

Equally though, i totallu understand why some cant see past the past, and i respsct norman tebbit for being honest in his statements. Why should he forgive?

Like you say, shades of grey.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Reading all these posts my overriding feeling is how absolutely stupid and ultimately futile armed struggle over diplomacy is. God forbid Scotlands Sons and Daughters ever thought that the bullet over the ballot box was the answer to their political and social beliefs.

I disagree with this.

Thid particular example, and many others across history and the world suggest it is very effective.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

People who are fundamentally opposed to something or someone will always find a reason to criticise. If McGuinness had ever apologised for his involvement with the IRA then that particular criticism could not have been levelled at him.

However not only did McGuinness never apologise for his involvement with the IRA, little over a year ago he actually said he was proud of his past involvement within the IRA.

I think that tells you a lot about the man. He and Gerry Adams have innocent blood on their hands and the least they could have done was apologise for their part they personally played in the IRA's campaign of terrorist attacks. The fact that we've got people on here having digs at Lord Tebbit for being critical of McGuinness after what happened to him and his wife in the Brighton Bombing is quite incredible.

I agree that having a dig at Tebbit is wrong, in the circumstances. It is perhaps indicative of the incteasingly inflammatory environment in Scotland being whipped up by our first minister, that dehumanises 'tories'. But i digress!

Of course they habe blood on their hands, all soldiers do and they absolutely considered themselves to be that.

You and others may disagree, but it is a moot point.

I wouldnt expect hom to apologise for his past actions, because i wouldnt for a minute expect that he meant it. He had fhe courageof his convictions, and fought against oppression.

[Betty Boop]

Just watched Channel 4 news on the funeral today, where thousands from the bogside came to say goodbye to Martin McGuinness.

Nice to see Arlene Foster, and Bill Clinton there as well.

Fat Eck was there also.

[ronaldo7]

Fat Eck was there also.

Nice.

[Aldo]

I'll remember him as someone who failed to ever apologise for his own personal involvement in an organisation that was responsible for some of the worst atrocities that have ever been committed on British soil against innocent civilians. He also failed to ever shed any light on what he knew from his past.

Yes he did manage to make a positive contribution during his latter years but his prominent involvement within the IRA over many years cannot and should not be ignored and he's personally not someone who I will ever respect or remember fondly.

This for me! Not just British but Irish too!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Geo_1875]

I agree that having a dig at Tebbit is wrong, in the circumstances. It is perhaps indicative of the incteasingly inflammatory environment in Scotland being whipped up by our first minister, that dehumanises 'tories'. But i digress!

Of course they habe blood on their hands, all soldiers do and they absolutely considered themselves to be that.

You and others may disagree, but it is a moot point.

I wouldnt expect hom to apologise for his past actions, because i wouldnt for a minute expect that he meant it. He had fhe courageof his convictions, and fought against oppression.

Being treated poorly in your own country validates murder but not campaigning for independence through the ballot box?

[Hibernia&Alba]

What an unfortunate comment that is.

No matter what your political preferences are, Alex Salmond is a true patriot, and a very effective politician who always spoke up for, and did his best for his Country.

GGTTH

Aye but he is a big yin :greengrin

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Being treated poorly in your own country validates murder but not campaigning for independence through the ballot box?

I dont follow?

Being oppressed in your own country, and systematicallu denied recourse through the ballot box, then facing violence when you protest about it. Im not sure what other courae are left open in that situation?

I dont understand your point about campaigning for indy, we libe in a democracy and are not oppressed.

[Eaststand]

Fat Eck was there also.

What an unfortunate post that is.

No matter what your political leanings are, Alex Salmond was an excellent politician who always spoke up for, and throughout his life he has done his best for his Country.

In my book that makes him a true patriot.

Can you say the same ?

GGTTH

[Geo_1875]

I dont follow?

No surprise there.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

No surprise there.

Eh?

If you habe something to say, say it - thats how this place works.

Snidey comments and insinuations dont add anything.

[marinello59]

What an unfortunate post that is.

No matter what your political leanings are, Alex Salmond was an excellent politician who always spoke up for, and throughout his life he has done his best for his Country.

In my book that makes him a true patriot.

Can you say the same ?

GGTTH

I want to see an Independent Scotland but I'm no patriot let alone a true one.

[Betty Boop]

What an unfortunate post that is.

No matter what your political leanings are, Alex Salmond was an excellent politician who always spoke up for, and throughout his life he has done his best for his Country.

In my book that makes him a true patriot.

Can you say the same ?

GGTTH


Sorry you took offence.

[Eaststand]

Sorry you took offence.

No worries, i usually like your posts but i get a bit hacked off at some of the stuff aimed at Alex Salmond

GGTTH

[ronaldo7]

Looks like further elections in Norn Irn.

Sinn Fein are saying the power sharing settlement has run it's course.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Looks like further elections in Norn Irn.

Sinn Fein are saying the power sharing settlement has run it's course.

Thats quite a position to take isnt it? Sounds quite worrying

[JeMeSouviens]

Thats quite a position to take isnt it? Sounds quite worrying

The SDLP have already put a stake in this ground:

http://www.sdlp.ie/news/2017/eastwood-no-return-to-the-days-of-direct-rule/

[Mr White]

The SDLP have already put a stake in this ground:

http://www.sdlp.ie/news/2017/eastwood-no-return-to-the-days-of-direct-rule/

I'd be surprised if there's any appetite within the Irish government to get involved in that suggestion. And there's no chance anyone in Westminster would be in favour. Then there's the majority of the electorate in NI who would be against it. Absolute non-starter imo but at least the SDLP are suggesting a practical solution rather than digging their heels in and crying foul all the time.

[ronaldo7]

Thats quite a position to take isnt it? Sounds quite worrying

Yes. Very worrying.