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HIBERNIAN-0762
29-12-2016, 04:46 PM
http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hibs/hibs-take-sunderland-left-back-tommy-robson-on-trial-1-4328112

Ronniekirk
29-12-2016, 05:43 PM
We aren't the only club interested in him and we have had a few trialists in and none to daye have impressed enough to sign
Assume we will let Eardsley go as he has hardly played for first team since we signed and has had a few injuries as well

PISTOL1875
29-12-2016, 06:21 PM
God help him if he's a better option than Stevenson. One mistake and the hate squad will be out on force

banarc7062
29-12-2016, 06:22 PM
Feel sorry for our young left back "cover" for Stevenson who clearly gets overlooked. He had a very impressive game in my opinion against Birmingham. Won't be surprised to see him being shown the door then turning out to be a great prospect for his next club if given regular games.. What would I know being just a Hib's supporter.

Andy74
29-12-2016, 06:27 PM
Feel sorry for our young left back "cover" for Stevenson who clearly gets overlooked. He had a very impressive game in my opinion against Birmingham. Won't be surprised to see him being shown the door then turning out to be a great prospect for his next club if given regular games.. What would I know being just a Hib's supporter.

There's a bit of an obsession at the minute about thinking young players are being badly treated. They are at a very big club, they have decent and experienced players ahead of them and it's an important season where we are in a neck and neck title race.

I'm sure they can do well when called upon but they need to be ready to put performances together week on week. When they are better options than what we have they will play.

HoboHarry
29-12-2016, 07:07 PM
Feel sorry for our young left back "cover" for Stevenson who clearly gets overlooked. He had a very impressive game in my opinion against Birmingham. Won't be surprised to see him being shown the door then turning out to be a great prospect for his next club if given regular games.. What would I know being just a Hib's supporter.
This subject has been done to death. Can you provide a list of the potentially great youngsters who we have let go are currently doing great things with other clubs? On a par with Jason Cummngs for example?

where'stheslope
29-12-2016, 07:12 PM
There's a bit of an obsession at the minute about thinking young players are being badly treated. They are at a very big club, they have decent and experienced players ahead of them and it's an important season where we are in a neck and neck title race.

I'm sure they can do well when called upon but they need to be ready to put performances together week on week. When they are better options than what we have they will play.

When we go up next season?

The first thing we will need is good back up, not untried young players, and if they do not get a game in the Championship do we try and blood them in the Premiership?

This is the League to be trying out at least some of our youngsters maybe 1 per game, as reading on here we could use anyone some weeks as this player or that player was crap!

Against Raith Rovers it was Shinnie's turn!

Bringing in new players is a must, and so is blooding our youngsters, as they are the life blood of any team.

ancient hibee
29-12-2016, 07:17 PM
Feel sorry for our young left back "cover" for Stevenson who clearly gets overlooked. He had a very impressive game in my opinion against Birmingham. Won't be surprised to see him being shown the door then turning out to be a great prospect for his next club if given regular games.. What would I know being just a Hib's supporter.
You shouldn't be.At the AGM Lennon was asked specifically about Crane and was quite candid ,saying that when the opportunity presented itself Crane wasn't showing in training.That's just as it should be.

indiejak1413
29-12-2016, 08:24 PM
Feel sorry for our young left back "cover" for Stevenson who clearly gets overlooked. He had a very impressive game in my opinion against Birmingham. Won't be surprised to see him being shown the door then turning out to be a great prospect for his next club if given regular games.. What would I know being just a Hib's supporter.
I've been saying for a while young Crane should get a run in the team. Obviously NL doesn't see him as a player or he would be in the 1st team ahead of LS, it's also well documented teams have tried to get him on loan and have been told "no". The player himself asked to go out on loan after being overlooked when LS was banned and told "no". He's just signed a new 1 year extension and Hibs bring a new guy on trial. So if the club sign a new left back where does that leave Crane. He'll soon be to old to play for the 20s. The championship is where these young guys should be getting a chance to play because it's obvious certain 1st team players aren't up to much judging by the comments I read on here every Saturday.

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Sioux
29-12-2016, 08:43 PM
The real problem is the U20 league. It's 17, 18 and 19 year olds that generally play there.

The step up from that level to full professional is huge. In the so called dark and dismal past we had reserve teams occupied by players who were just below 1st team level. Below that were various youth set ups. There's not enough money to run with this set up any more we are told. Younger ones wouldn't need to be sent out on loan so much if there was a middle tier. Obviously you couldn't play all of the young ones at the same time in a reserve side. That would bring us back to where we are now.

As it is, it's too much of a gamble playing young ones 'just to see if they're good enough'.

B.H.F.C
29-12-2016, 08:47 PM
I'm just happy we are looking at strengthening that particular position.

Andy74
29-12-2016, 08:50 PM
When we go up next season?

The first thing we will need is good back up, not untried young players, and if they do not get a game in the Championship do we try and blood them in the Premiership?

This is the League to be trying out at least some of our youngsters maybe 1 per game, as reading on here we could use anyone some weeks as this player or that player was crap!

Against Raith Rovers it was Shinnie's turn!

Bringing in new players is a must, and so is blooding our youngsters, as they are the life blood of any team.

Why would we have a worse squad when we go up?

Dashing Bob S
29-12-2016, 08:53 PM
If Robson is better than Stevenson, and/or Crane, get him in. If not, then don't bother. It's a simple as that. I like Stevenson and I hope Crane makes it, but we can't fanny about at the moment. We need to be up, and to guarantee that, we need to be improving the team.

If this guy can put in a tackle, hit the byline at pace, and whip in dangerous balls, then get him signed.

Billychaotic182
29-12-2016, 08:59 PM
This subject has been done to death. Can you provide a list of the potentially great youngsters who we have let go are currently doing great things with other clubs? On a par with Jason Cummngs for example?

Callum Booth - playing at a higher level and playing well. Scored in his last game.

Sean Welsh - Captain at a club in a higher league than ourselves and has a great number of assists this season and chipped in with a few goals too.

David Wotherspoon - again playing at a higher level and is a key player for his team.

Kleton Perntreou - released by hibs then got a move to the English premiership

Jordan McGregor - again released by hibs but then made the jump back to the Scottish premiership. Is highly rated at accies. Not sure if he has played though.

That's a few that I can think of at the top of my head that have found a higher level after being told they weren't good enough here.

TBH though I'd only really have Booth back from that list. But it's still some players.

AlbertK86
29-12-2016, 09:00 PM
If Robson is better than Stevenson, and/or Crane, get him in. If not, then don't bother. It's a simple as that. I like Stevenson and I hope Crane makes it, but we can't fanny about at the moment. We need to be up, and to guarantee that, we need to be improving the team. If this guy can put in a tackle, hit the byline at pace, and whip in dangerous balls, then get him signed.

Spot on

BSEJVT
29-12-2016, 09:12 PM
If we have the limited budget available this window we are said to have, IMO bringing a left back is utter madness.

We have a very good left back in Lewis and a deputy who I am told is also very good, possibly even better.

Its not as if our left back is asked to defend much.

A blind man could tell you that the problems are with our forwards / lack of penetration / width, as our much maligned midfield shorn of Fyvie & McGinn still managed to create a good few chances on Saturday.

This boy might be very good but all our resources this season must be directed to getting up, we can worry about next season then.

Having 3 left backs and others who can fill in if required would be utter madness IMO ivo the budget limitations we have

Scouse Hibee
29-12-2016, 09:15 PM
If we have the limited budget available this window we are said to have, IMO bringing a left back is utter madness.

We have a very good left back in Lewis and a deputy who I am told is also very good, possibly even better.

Its not as if our left back is asked to defend much.

A blind man could tell you that the problems are with our forwards / lack of penetration / width, as our much maligned midfield shorn of Fyvie & McGinn still managed to create a good few chances on Saturday.

This boy might be very good but all our resources this season must be directed to getting up, we can worry about next season then.

Having 3 left backs and others who can fill in if required would be utter madness IMO ivo the budget limitations we have

Our very good left back (half decent) is not a great wing back, the position he is often playing highlights his pish poor distribution. If that role can be improved I am all for it.

snooky
29-12-2016, 09:18 PM
Callum Booth - playing at a higher level and playing well. Scored in his last game.

Sean Welsh - Captain at a club in a higher league than ourselves and has a great number of assists this season and chipped in with a few goals too.

David Wotherspoon - again playing at a higher level and is a key player for his team.

Kleton Perntreou - released by hibs then got a move to the English premiership

Jordan McGregor - again released by hibs but then made the jump back to the Scottish premiership. Is highly rated at accies. Not sure if he has played though.

That's a few that I can think of at the top of my head that have found a higher level after being told they weren't good enough here.

TBH though I'd only really have Booth back from that list. But it's still some players.

Hit the bar the week before and also had a legit goal disallowed (IIRC) the week before that.

BSEJVT
29-12-2016, 09:28 PM
Our very good left back (half decent) is not a great wing back, the position he is often playing highlights his pish poor distribution. If that role can be improved I am all for it.

With a limitless budget so would I be as I would be with any other position in the team, but the budget isn't limitless and I think could be better spent elsewhere.

Lewis is IMO a very good left back certainly at SPL & Championship level, I have never seen him get a real roasting, I would agree he is a far less able wing back.

If we are changing him, why not change Gray where there is no adequate cover and who is IMO no better from a distribution point of view.

Playing 3 5 2 doesn't IMO work in the packed defences of the Championship where most teams come to ER and sit camped on the edge of their own box.

There just isn't the space to get crosses in without trying to beat your man and that isn't either Gray or Stevenson's forte.

I would prefer we spent the budget on more forward thinking players and left the full backs to primarily defend.

Jobs for which they are IMO both better suited than playing as wingbacks

Marco G
29-12-2016, 09:31 PM
Callum Booth - playing at a higher level and playing well. Scored in his last game.

Sean Welsh - Captain at a club in a higher league than ourselves and has a great number of assists this season and chipped in with a few goals too.

David Wotherspoon - again playing at a higher level and is a key player for his team.

Kleton Perntreou - released by hibs then got a move to the English premiership

Jordan McGregor - again released by hibs but then made the jump back to the Scottish premiership. Is highly rated at accies. Not sure if he has played though.

That's a few that I can think of at the top of my head that have found a higher level after being told they weren't good enough here.

TBH though I'd only really have Booth back from that list. But it's still some players.
That says it all! So really just two players who are doing not too bad at Partick? Now would you like to name all the other ones who left and have never been heard of since? Football works like that and we are no different from any other team imo, otherwise we do a Chelsea and have 40 young players out on loan.

Just now all that matters is if we can get players into our first team who improve what we have and I dont mind where they come from.

Fwiw I think our current system will help to develop good players, but whether they make it to first team standard in future remains to be seen. No one knows until it happens.

Scouse Hibee
29-12-2016, 09:34 PM
With a limitless budget so would I be as I would be with any other position in the team, but the budget isn't limitless and I think could be better spent elsewhere.

Lewis is IMO a very good left back certainly at SPL & Championship level, I have never seen him get a real roasting, I would agree he is a far less able wing back.

If we are changing him, why not change Gray where there is no adequate cover and who is IMO no better from a distribution point of view.

Playing 3 5 2 doesn't IMO work in the packed defences of the Championship where most teams come to ER and sit camped on the edge of their own box.

There just isn't the space to get crosses in without trying to beat your man and that isn't either Gray or Stevenson's forte.

I would prefer we spent the budget on more forward thinking players and left the full backs to primarily defend.

Jobs for which they are IMO both better suited than playing as wingbacks

Fair points, can't really argue with any of that.

HibsNutter
29-12-2016, 09:54 PM
Callum Booth - playing at a higher level and playing well. Scored in his last game. Finally starting to play alright for a crap PL team years after leaving.

Sean Welsh - Captain at a club in a higher league than ourselves and has a great number of assists this season and chipped in with a few goals too. Finally starting to play alright for a crap PL team years after leaving.

David Wotherspoon - again playing at a higher level and is a key player for his team. Almost always hid when the going to tough for us.

Kleton Perntreou - released by hibs then got a move to the English premiership. Who?

Jordan McGregor - again released by hibs but then made the jump back to the Scottish premiership. Is highly rated at accies. Not sure if he has played though. Hasn't had a game for a dreadful hamilton team in the league. Couple of league cup appearances.

That's a few that I can think of at the top of my head that have found a higher level after being told they weren't good enough here.

TBH though I'd only really have Booth back from that list. But it's still some players.

.

silverhibee
29-12-2016, 09:55 PM
This subject has been done to death. Can you provide a list of the potentially great youngsters who we have let go are currently doing great things with other clubs? On a par with Jason Cummngs for example?

Griffiths.

bingo70
29-12-2016, 10:00 PM
Griffiths.

Was Stefan Scougall not with us when he was young too?

Marc McNulty possibly as well? (Think that's his name)

Arch Stanton
29-12-2016, 10:03 PM
http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hibs/hibs-take-sunderland-left-back-tommy-robson-on-trial-1-4328112

Unfortunate that the pic shows him arriving too late to stop the cross coming in - lamb to the slaughter if he stays here.

Billychaotic182
29-12-2016, 10:05 PM
Was Stefan Scougall not with us when he was young too?

Marc McNulty possibly as well? (Think that's his name)

Was Jai qutongo not with us as well?

Love the Green
29-12-2016, 10:05 PM
There's a bit of an obsession at the minute about thinking young players are being badly treated. They are at a very big club, they have decent and experienced players ahead of them and it's an important season where we are in a neck and neck title race.

I'm sure they can do well when called upon but they need to be ready to put performances together week on week. When they are better options than what we have they will play.
Yes but look what happened when we let Welsh and Booth go they are now both performing well at a premier league team. Don't tell me they both were given as many chances as those 2 duds Stanton and Harris.

Ilovehibs
29-12-2016, 10:09 PM
Does anyone know how young Sean Mackie is getting on at Berwick Rangers- think his loan is up in January. Still only 18 but wonder how he is doing.

HoboHarry
29-12-2016, 10:10 PM
Callum Booth - playing at a higher level and playing well. Scored in his last game.

Sean Welsh - Captain at a club in a higher league than ourselves and has a great number of assists this season and chipped in with a few goals too.

David Wotherspoon - again playing at a higher level and is a key player for his team.

Kleton Perntreou - released by hibs then got a move to the English premiership

Jordan McGregor - again released by hibs but then made the jump back to the Scottish premiership. Is highly rated at accies. Not sure if he has played though.

That's a few that I can think of at the top of my head that have found a higher level after being told they weren't good enough here.

TBH though I'd only really have Booth back from that list. But it's still some players.
You are kind of backing up my point - the players you name are doing just fine at their respective clubs but I doubt that any are going to attract a big fee any time soon. They have not gone on to the "great things" I asked about and I can't see many Hibs fans leaping for joy if any of them were to return......

Marco G
29-12-2016, 10:12 PM
Yes but look what happened when we let Welsh and Booth go they are now both performing well at a premier league team. Don't tell me they both were given as many chances as those 2 duds Stanton and Harris.
Booth had plenty of chances, went on loan and did little. Welsh was mainly injured. Anyway what does it matter. Some managers rate a player and some dont.They are no world beaters. We didnt sell Paul Pogba for a mill and pay 80 mill to get him back did we!

HoboHarry
29-12-2016, 10:12 PM
Griffiths.
Que? Did we ever have LG on a full time contract?

Marco G
29-12-2016, 10:16 PM
Que? Did we ever have LG on a full time contract?
Que is right. Sounds like folk think if you take someone on loan he is your player? We never developed him or had him signed, though am delighted he played for us obviously!

silverhibee
29-12-2016, 10:21 PM
Que? Did we ever have LG on a full time contract?

I thought we had Griffiths as a youngster.

Marco G
29-12-2016, 10:24 PM
I thought we had Griffiths as a youngster.
Two seasons on loan from Wolves, when he was already 21.

HoboHarry
29-12-2016, 10:29 PM
I thought we had Griffiths as a youngster.
Never heard that before. He made his Livingston debut at the age of 16.....

Marco G
29-12-2016, 10:32 PM
Never heard that before. He made his Livingston debut at the age of 16.....
.... and Leith Athletic before that.

hibbysam
29-12-2016, 10:33 PM
Does anyone know how young Sean Mackie is getting on at Berwick Rangers- think his loan is up in January. Still only 18 but wonder how he is doing.

I don't think he has played since damaging his knee early on this season. Has turned out a few times for the 20s and I think he has been on the bench the last few weeks for Berwick. Injury came at exactly the wrong time for him but he has worked his backside off to get back to full fitness.

silverhibee
29-12-2016, 10:43 PM
Two seasons on loan from Wolves, when he was already 21.


Never heard that before. He made his Livingston debut at the age of 16.....

MG, I meant as a young kid.

I thought we had him in as a youth, seems I'm wrong.

I can rule out Griffiths.

Smartie
29-12-2016, 10:58 PM
MG, I meant as a young kid.

I thought we had him in as a youth, seems I'm wrong.

I can rule out Griffiths.

I was sure we had Griffiths as a kid.

I seem to remember a tale about him getting emptied in his early teens for being a total bam.

monktonharp
29-12-2016, 11:09 PM
I'd have prefered a solid experienced left back as cover, or more! someone that could challenge and pressurise our current.Lewis can also play more of a midfield role if reqd. Gunnerson, the big Norwegian? he had a few excellent performances for us, scored a great goal and did his bit in the final. wished we had pushed to get him for a year or so. good player, and dependable. I think he played both positions as full back, but was a loss this season as well as the obvious other 2 loans.

NadeAteMyLunch!
29-12-2016, 11:28 PM
I'd have prefered a solid experienced left back as cover, or more! someone that could challenge and pressurise our current.Lewis can also play more of a midfield role if reqd. Gunnerson, the big Norwegian? he had a few excellent performances for us, scored a great goal and did his bit in the final. wished we had pushed to get him for a year or so. good player, and dependable. I think he played both positions as full back, but was a loss this season as well as the obvious other 2 loans.

We offered him a three year deal but he turned it down as he didn't want to be a squad player at this stage of his career. Was reported earlier this month. Shame as he showed real glimpses of quality at times.

Tyler Durden
30-12-2016, 07:59 AM
With a limitless budget so would I be as I would be with any other position in the team, but the budget isn't limitless and I think could be better spent elsewhere.

Lewis is IMO a very good left back certainly at SPL & Championship level, I have never seen him get a real roasting, I would agree he is a far less able wing back.

If we are changing him, why not change Gray where there is no adequate cover and who is IMO no better from a distribution point of view.

Playing 3 5 2 doesn't IMO work in the packed defences of the Championship where most teams come to ER and sit camped on the edge of their own box.

There just isn't the space to get crosses in without trying to beat your man and that isn't either Gray or Stevenson's forte.

I would prefer we spent the budget on more forward thinking players and left the full backs to primarily defend.

Jobs for which they are IMO both better suited than playing as wingbacks

Even if playing as full backs in a back 4 their role is no longer to primarily defend. Not in any league but certainly not playing for the biggest team in this league.

Signing an effective left sided player would be my number one priority.

We missed plenty of chances against Raith but in a number of recent games we struggled to create and Stevensons performances were a major part of that. If it's clear that Crane not get a chance then Stevenson needs some competition at the very least. His output this season has been nowhere near as good as previous 2 years IMO.

Marco G
30-12-2016, 08:39 AM
Even if playing as full backs in a back 4 their role is no longer to primarily defend. Not in any league but certainly not playing for the biggest team in this league.

Signing an effective left sided player would be my number one priority.

We missed plenty of chances against Raith but in a number of recent games we struggled to create and Stevensons performances were a major part of that. If it's clear that Crane not get a chance then Stevenson needs some competition at the very least. His output this season has been nowhere near as good as previous 2 years IMO.
Feel that Lewis gets a bit of a raw deal sometimes here! His crosses are generally OK (I watch plenty EPL games where the overlapping fullback pings it across to no one in particular) and it aint easy to pick someone out against a packed defence. Where he has struggled recently imo is going past his man rather than turning back. If we can get someone in who gets to the bye line, (whether they are called a full back or a winger!), then lets do it.

Tyler Durden
30-12-2016, 08:47 AM
Feel that Lewis gets a bit of a raw deal sometimes here! His crosses are generally OK (I watch plenty EPL games where the overlapping fullback pings it across to no one in particular) and it aint easy to pick someone out against a packed defence. Where he has struggled recently imo is going past his man rather than turning back. If we can get someone in who gets to the bye line, (whether they are called a full back or a winger!), then lets do it.

It's one of the main differences between Gray and Lewis for me, the latters refusal to take a man on. Gray will get into a 1 vs 1 and knock it past his man quite often, getting to the bye line. Lewis invariably turns back and passes inside.

I'm not slating Lewis at all, just think we need a more capable attacking full back in this league.

Marco G
30-12-2016, 08:50 AM
It's one of the main differences between Gray and Lewis for me, the latters refusal to take a man on. Gray will get into a 1 vs 1 and knock it past his man quite often, getting to the bye line. Lewis invariably turns back and passes inside.

I'm not slating Lewis at all, just think we need a more capable attacking full back in this league.
Agree that could give us the edge we need. Much better chances come from cut backs than slow recycling.

The Leith Dutch
30-12-2016, 09:10 AM
You shouldn't be.At the AGM Lennon was asked specifically about Crane and was quite candid ,saying that when the opportunity presented itself Crane wasn't showing in training.That's just as it should be.

Exactly.

While I'm happy enough to see young players given a chance we most certainly should not be doing it "just to see".
We're in a title race and we don't have the luxury of seeing what shakes out or treating the young players in a certain way.
Young players get in the team because they bang the door down in training week in week out with performances.
From what you say Crane isn't doing that so he doesn't play.

The attitude towards young players on here reflects the wider problem that any player that doesn't currently play for us (young player, player we let go, player we could have signed, opposition player who has a good game against us etc..etc...) is viewed as a world beater because things are not going as anyone would like it for us.

Said it before but the current squad is better than any other squad in the league - and disagreeing with that someone would logically have to name another team in the division who they'd trade all our players for all that teams players.

The problem is the results are not nearly good enough.

indiejak1413
30-12-2016, 09:29 AM
Exactly.

While I'm happy enough to see young players given a chance we most certainly should not be doing it "just to see".
We're in a title race and we don't have the luxury of seeing what shakes out or treating the young players in a certain way.
Young players get in the team because they bang the door down in training week in week out with performances.
From what you say Crane isn't doing that so he doesn't play.

The attitude towards young players on here reflects the wider problem that any player that doesn't currently play for us (young player, player we let go, player we could have signed, opposition player who has a good game against us etc..etc...) is viewed as a world beater because things are not going as anyone would like it for us.

Said it before but the current squad is better than any other squad in the league - and disagreeing with that someone would logically have to name another team in the division who they'd trade all our players for all that teams players.

The problem is the results are not nearly good enough.
So what's the point of having a youth system. Olly Shaw bangs in the goals regularly could he get a chance in the 1st team....no. Martin and Crane cruise the development games week in week out and Martin gets a chance because of an injury crisis. The minute the injured lads are fit again Martin will be dropped. Now the club are giving a trial to a guy the same age as Crane untested just like Crane but won't come cheap after playing for a premiership club. Better off developing the guy getting £250 a week.

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Marco G
30-12-2016, 09:47 AM
So what's the point of having a youth system. Olly Shaw bangs in the goals regularly could he get a chance in the 1st team....no. Martin and Crane cruise the development games week in week out and Martin gets a chance because of an injury crisis. The minute the injured lads are fit again Martin will be dropped. Now the club are giving a trial to a guy the same age as Crane untested just like Crane but won't come cheap after playing for a premiership club. Better off developing the guy getting £250 a week.

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The point is if and when they are good enough they will get a game. If they are not yet ready they will be getting all the input needed to make the step up. If we give a trial to someone from outside the club the manager and coaches are only doing it cause they know we dont have a better option inside the club. Not many from a youth system make it. We should be encouraged that we do have some good prospects and if they dont make it it will be their own fault, not the club's fault imo.

WhileTheChief..
30-12-2016, 09:58 AM
So what's the point of having a youth system.
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Good question. I'd say none.

Waste of resources. We train up some young boys who fancy a game of football. A few years later we release them or loan them out and rarely hear about them again.

I've no idea how our youth system works but I'd imagine there are probably dozens of lads involved each year and once in a blue moon you'll get a player good enough for the first team that might add value to our club both in performances and a transfer fee.

My gut feeling is that whatever we spend on youth should be spent on getting first team players in. Let other teams do the youth development then sign them. Think McGinn.

The Leith Dutch
30-12-2016, 10:03 AM
So what's the point of having a youth system.

I don't necessarily know that we should have a youth system but if we do we certainly shouldn't be taking chances with the first team to validate having one. There was an article recently that was a coach in England arguing against clubs having their own youth systems as not being very cost effective so there are theories that maybe it isn't the right way to go?

Not saying we drop it but it may be something that's had it's day for teams at a certain level which, regrettably, we and Scottish football in general now are.


Olly Shaw bangs in the goals regularly could he get a chance in the 1st team....no. Martin and Crane cruise the development games week in week out and Martin gets a chance because of an injury crisis. The minute the injured lads are fit again Martin will be dropped.

Martin will obviously be dropped - correct decision imo as McGinn, McGeough and Fyvie play a similar game to him and based on what I've seen of Martin he's a tidy player with good energy but not anywhere near at the standard of those players yet.

It sounds very like Crane is not showing enough in training both from posts on here and the fact that we put Hanlon at LB when Stevenson was out.

Shaw I'd probably suggest should have had a chance as it's a lot easier to blood young strikers with 5-10 minutes at the end when a game is won (I think we do still win games ;) ) so he should have been on the bench. That said - we've had a *lot* of strikers over the years who have scored a ton of goals at youth and development level who weren't capable of making the step up.


Now the club are giving a trial to a guy the same age as Crane untested just like Crane but won't come cheap after playing for a premiership club. Better off developing the guy getting £250 a week.

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While I'm not saying the Sunderland guy will be any good I'd disagree with the last sentence - this is not a season to develop players. It's a season we want players to go in and do a job at a very good level (at least by the standards of this league).
Of course whether the players we have or the players we're looking at can do that is a whole different kettle of fish ;)

Andy74
30-12-2016, 10:22 AM
So what's the point of having a youth system. Olly Shaw bangs in the goals regularly could he get a chance in the 1st team....no. Martin and Crane cruise the development games week in week out and Martin gets a chance because of an injury crisis. The minute the injured lads are fit again Martin will be dropped. Now the club are giving a trial to a guy the same age as Crane untested just like Crane but won't come cheap after playing for a premiership club. Better off developing the guy getting £250 a week.

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It should maybe be noted that Shaw has struggled to get a game on loan to Stenhousemuir. He should have had a chance in our first team instead?

where'stheslope
30-12-2016, 10:30 AM
The point is if and when they are good enough they will get a game. If they are not yet ready they will be getting all the input needed to make the step up. If we give a trial to someone from outside the club the manager and coaches are only doing it cause they know we dont have a better option inside the club. Not many from a youth system make it. We should be encouraged that we do have some good prospects and if they dont make it it will be their own fault, not the club's fault imo.

Sorry, but the statement is flawed!

In any other season youngsters would get a game in the first team in this league, but as it is not going as well as everyone hoped it tried and tested only!

The biggest problem is, when we go up the same youngsters have had no experience in the Championship and would have to be blooded in the Premiership?

A flourishing youth system is what every team aims for, as it keeps a cheap turnover of good young starlets and saves spending on imported players that then have to fit into the team.

Homegrown youngsters are brought through the ranks so as they are already up to speed on team tactics and team formations!!!!

Andy74
30-12-2016, 11:39 AM
Sorry, but the statement is flawed!

In any other season youngsters would get a game in the first team in this league, but as it is not going as well as everyone hoped it tried and tested only!

The biggest problem is, when we go up the same youngsters have had no experience in the Championship and would have to be blooded in the Premiership?

A flourishing youth system is what every team aims for, as it keeps a cheap turnover of good young starlets and saves spending on imported players that then have to fit into the team.

Homegrown youngsters are brought through the ranks so as they are already up to speed on team tactics and team formations!!!!

No, that's flawed.

If the same youngsters couldn't get a game in this league they won't get one in the league above for us.

As the post you quoted said players will get a game when they are deemed good enough not just to tick a box for playing a young player.

St Johnstone have shown it doesn't really make much odds if you do t produce players if you instead manage to fund the first team to keep brining in players you want.

Now if you had a youth system that always produced top players and also made you a fortune when you sold them then great but Ibthink that's something that takes time to sort when it hasn't been working for some time.

The Leith Dutch
30-12-2016, 12:13 PM
Sorry, but the statement is flawed!

In any other season youngsters would get a game in the first team in this league, but as it is not going as well as everyone hoped it tried and tested only!

The biggest problem is, when we go up the same youngsters have had no experience in the Championship and would have to be blooded in the Premiership?

A flourishing youth system is what every team aims for, as it keeps a cheap turnover of good young starlets and saves spending on imported players that then have to fit into the team.

Homegrown youngsters are brought through the ranks so as they are already up to speed on team tactics and team formations!!!!

I think that's back to front - the youth system exists to service the first team (either with back up players or, when things go well, a player that makes the step up). It serves a secondary function to hopefully provide the club with income from player sales.

It's a gamble though. You can do better with skilled youth scouts and good development practice and facilities but at the end of the day it's a roll of the dice. Sometimes you get Riordan, Brown, Thompson, O'Connor and Whitaker all coming through at once. Sometimes you get nobody to make the step up and you do something similar by buying the likes of McGinn and Allan (albeit the latter was a little older but given the small number of games he was practically a youth player).

At the moment the fact stands that we can't afford to gamble - we need 3 points in the vast majority of the remaining 18 league games.

J-C
30-12-2016, 12:24 PM
No, that's flawed.

If the sane youngsters couldn't get a game in this league they won't get one in the league above for us.

As the post you quoted said players will get a game when they are deemed good enough not just to tick a box for playing a young player.

St Johnstone have shown it doesn't really make much odds if you do t produce players if you instead manage to fund the first team to keep brining in players you want.

Now if you had a youth system that always produced top players and also made you a fortune when you sold them then great but Ibthink that's something that takes time to sort when it hasn't been working for some time.


I think that's back to front - the youth system exists to service the first team (either with back up players or, when things go well, a player that makes the step up). It serves a secondary function to hopefully provide the club with income from player sales.

It's a gamble though. You can do better with skilled youth scouts and good development practice and facilities but at the end of the day it's a roll of the dice. Sometimes you get Riordan, Brown, Thompson, O'Connor and Whitaker all coming through at once. Sometimes you get nobody to make the step up and you do something similar by buying the likes of McGinn and Allan (albeit the latter was a little older but given the small number of games he was practically a youth player).

At the moment the fact stands that we can't afford to gamble - we need 3 points in the vast majority of the remaining 18 league games.


Young Martin has shown in the 2 games he's started that he has enough about him to at least give him more games than he already has, Crane likewise.

I don't think anyone is calling for all young players to play regularly but if they are capable enough then get them in, Crane must've been gutted when Stevenson was out and Lennon chose Hanlon a CB instead of him, especially as he was told he'd be backup this season.

ancient hibee
30-12-2016, 04:09 PM
Young Martin has shown in the 2 games he's started that he has enough about him to at least give him more games than he already has, Crane likewise.

I don't think anyone is calling for all young players to play regularly but if they are capable enough then get them in, Crane must've been gutted when Stevenson was out and Lennon chose Hanlon a CB instead of him, especially as he was told he'd be backup this season.
Perhaps Crane thought he'd cracked it and didn't do the work in training?Martin is promising and energetic but not as good as the guys who are missing.

Malthibby
30-12-2016, 07:56 PM
Does anyone know how young Sean Mackie is getting on at Berwick Rangers- think his loan is up in January. Still only 18 but wonder how he is doing.

Or Lewis Allan?

greenlex
30-12-2016, 08:28 PM
I am wondering why Lennon didn't play Crane in the Challenge cup when the opportunity rose. It must be difficult to train and look happy when you are overlooked in those circumstances. I think Lennons man management skills are not what they could be.

StevieCowan
30-12-2016, 08:44 PM
I am wondering why Lennon didn't play Crane in the Challenge cup when the opportunity rose. It must be difficult to train and look happy when you are overlooked in those circumstances. I think Lennons man management skills are not what they could be.

Or maybe he just thinks he isn't good enough and could cost us vital points.

Has Crane ever been close to any national team call up, how did he do at the clubs he has been on loan at and does he tear up the left wing and stand out at 20's.

Big L
30-12-2016, 08:52 PM
I'm hearing Chris Humphreys ex Preston-Motherwell on his way to ER.

greenlex
30-12-2016, 08:53 PM
Or maybe he just thinks he isn't good enough and could cost us vital points.

Has Crane ever been close to any national team call up, how did he do at the clubs he has been on loan at and does he tear up the left wing and stand out at 20's.
Do you get points in the challenge cup?

indiejak1413
30-12-2016, 09:10 PM
Or maybe he just thinks he isn't good enough and could cost us vital points.

Has Crane ever been close to any national team call up, how did he do at the clubs he has been on loan at and does he tear up the left wing and stand out at 20's.
I've seen him play for the 20s and he's a good player and I think some of the guys on here that go to the 20s games would probably agree. He plays with his head up , he's quick and efficient with his passing. He can also whip in a cross.

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StevieCowan
30-12-2016, 09:14 PM
Do you get points in the challenge cup?

Yawn.

greenlex
30-12-2016, 09:21 PM
Yawn.

Tired? I was questioning why he didn't start in the challenge cup ahead of moving Hanlon to left back. Ideal opportunity IMO. No points st stake. Cranes bound to be demotivated.

B.H.F.C
30-12-2016, 09:28 PM
Tired? I was questioning why he didn't start in the challenge cup ahead of moving Hanlon to left back. Ideal opportunity IMO. No points st stake. Cranes bound to be demotivated.

Maybe Lennon just doesn't think he's good enough or wasn't training well at the time. I'm sure someone said that he alluded to that at the AGM.

Should he have played him just to cheer the laddie up?

Marco G
30-12-2016, 09:35 PM
Tired? I was questioning why he didn't start in the challenge cup ahead of moving Hanlon to left back. Ideal opportunity IMO. No points st stake. Cranes bound to be demotivated.
He didnt start him imo because on the day he felt he was not good enough, no matter what is at stake. Should not demotivate Crane. Am sure with our management team everyone knows why they are playing or not. Its up to players, young or old, to force their way into the team.

Why do you think it is the manager's fault rather than the player's?

greenlex
30-12-2016, 09:44 PM
Maybe Lennon just doesn't think he's good enough or wasn't training well at the time. I'm sure someone said that he alluded to that at the AGM.

Should he have played him just to cheer the laddie up?
I think the training issue may have been after being overlooked. He asked to go on loan in the summer and was told he was left back cover and part of the first team squad. The first time an opportunity when Stevenson is rested in a game of the least importance he doesn't even make the bench.
I don't see him train but I've seen him plenty in the 20s and also against Birmingham pre season. He should have had the chance IMO.
Squad rotation when there is an opportunity is good man management so yes to keeping him happy.
I understand Lennon maybe not fancying him in a defensive sense when we really need to be promoted but not involving him that day is a shocker IMO.

HoboHarry
30-12-2016, 09:47 PM
I think the training issue may have been after being overlooked. He asked to go on loan in the summer and was told he was left back cover and part of the first team squad. The first time an opportunity when Stevenson is rested in a game of the least importance he doesn't even make the bench.
I don't see him train but I've seen him plenty in the 20s and also against Birmingham pre season. He should have had the chance IMO.
Squad rotation when there is an opportunity is good man management so yes to keeping him happy.
I understand Lennon maybe not fancying him in a defensive sense when we really need to be promoted but not involving him that day is a shocker IMO.
You aren't serious with that comment surely?

:faf:

B.H.F.C
30-12-2016, 09:53 PM
I think the training issue may have been after being overlooked. He asked to go on loan in the summer and was told he was left back cover and part of the first team squad. The first time an opportunity when Stevenson is rested in a game of the least importance he doesn't even make the bench.
I don't see him train but I've seen him plenty in the 20s and also against Birmingham pre season. He should have had the chance IMO.
Squad rotation when there is an opportunity is good man management so yes to keeping him happy.
I understand Lennon maybe not fancying him in a defensive sense when we really need to be promoted but not involving him that day is a shocker IMO.

As it goes I thought he should have started that day. What I disagree with is that it becomes poor man management from Lennon when he doesn't. Like you say, you don't see him train. Lennon does and said he wasn't training well. I'm all for giving young players a chance but they need to earn it. You can't just play him to keep him happy.

greenlex
30-12-2016, 09:56 PM
You aren't serious with that comment surely?

:faf:
Yes. He's a better left back than Hanlon. Stevenson was on the bench for whatever reason. We were playing St Mirren at home in the Chalkenge Cup. The laddies champing at the bit. He should have been involved even from the bench. To be told you're part of the plans then overlooked in those circumstances it's no wonder the boys hacked off. A bit if an OG from Lennon IMO. Laugh all you like buddy.

Marco G
30-12-2016, 10:04 PM
Yes. He's a better left back than Hanlon. Stevenson was on the bench for whatever reason. We were playing St Mirren at home in the Chalkenge Cup. The laddies champing at the bit. He should have been involved even from the bench. To be told you're part of the plans then overlooked in those circumstances it's no wonder the boys hacked off. A bit if an OG from Lennon IMO. Laugh all you like buddy.
Sorry, but how do you know the boy is hacked off?

The Leith Dutch
30-12-2016, 11:54 PM
Yes. He's a better left back than Hanlon. Stevenson was on the bench for whatever reason. We were playing St Mirren at home in the Chalkenge Cup. The laddies champing at the bit. He should have been involved even from the bench. To be told you're part of the plans then overlooked in those circumstances it's no wonder the boys hacked off. A bit if an OG from Lennon IMO. Laugh all you like buddy.

I find it very bizarre that in our current position we're concerned with whether a youth player who the manager clearly doesn't think is up to the task is happy or not.

As for being a better left back than Hanlon - Lennon clearly thought Hanlon would do the better job in that position regardless of Crane being an actual left back as I understand it. As Lennon is the guy who sees him play week in week out and is also the guy with his balls on the line for the results - he gets to make that call.

If Crane was showing something I don't doubt Lennon would play him and if he's not showing something I want a manager who doesn't play him.

Dashing Bob S
31-12-2016, 12:09 AM
I find it very bizarre that in our current position we're concerned with whether a youth player who the manager clearly doesn't think is up to the task is happy or not.

As for being a better left back than Hanlon - Lennon clearly thought Hanlon would do the better job in that position regardless of Crane being an actual left back as I understand it. As Lennon is the guy who sees him play week in week out and is also the guy with his balls on the line for the results - he gets to make that call.

If Crane was showing something I don't doubt Lennon would play him and if he's not showing something I want a manager who doesn't play him.

Agreed. It's nice that people want our young players to do well, but just fantasizing that they are world beaters doesn't necessarily make it so. It's Lennon's call, and he's always going to pick the best teams as he sees it. If Crane was ready, he'd be handed the jersey.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
31-12-2016, 12:37 AM
I feel sorry for stevenson (and gray).

They are being asked to be wingers and neither is , and it is hanging them out to dry a wee bit.

Both are good full backs. Neither are good wingers (if they were, they would never have been full backs).

Agree what others say about Crane - we arr not some sporting chance charity, if he isnt showing it, tough luck. Being young doesnt mean he is automatically good.

BSEJVT
31-12-2016, 06:11 AM
I find it very bizarre that in our current position we're concerned with whether a youth player who the manager clearly doesn't think is up to the task is happy or not.

As for being a better left back than Hanlon - Lennon clearly thought Hanlon would do the better job in that position regardless of Crane being an actual left back as I understand it. As Lennon is the guy who sees him play week in week out and is also the guy with his balls on the line for the results - he gets to make that call.

If Crane was showing something I don't doubt Lennon would play him and if he's not showing something I want a manager who doesn't play him.

Agree 100%

Crane appears to be the latest in a long line of development full backs lauded by many who fail to break through.

With the possible exception of Booth, the others have gone on to achieve nothing.