(NHC) Prof Phil Scraton rejects OBE.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

The Hillsborough campaigner continues to go up in my estimations.

[southsider]

And mine. Time for a Republic.

[G B Young]

I never understand people who reject well-merited national recognition of their efforts. Men and women from all walks of life have been honoured to receive such accolades down the years for their outstanding public service. This guy deserves his award and he should see it as acknowledgement from the establishment that he was right to play a key role in the campaign rather than take some sort of 'anti-establishment' stance. To reject it is a disservice to the many who have admired his work and is the sort of futile gesture you'd expect from that old duffer Jeremy Corbyn. Such medals have long ago lost their association with empire, privilege etc and an OBE is simply a deserved recognition for those who go above and beyond, the vast majority of whom are chuffed to receive such an award from the queen.

On the subject of OBE holders, here's hoping Andy Murray finally adds a long overdue knighthood to his when the new year honours are announced :agree:

[Hamish]

My admiration for someone always increases when I hear they have rejected the offer.

[Canon Hannan]

Outdated elitist British Nationalism. David Bowie and many other great human beings have rejected this award.

[Sir David Gray]

I never understand people who reject well-merited national recognition of their efforts. Men and women from all walks of life have been honoured to receive such accolades down the years for their outstanding public service. This guy deserves his award and he should see it as acknowledgement from the establishment that he was right to play a key role in the campaign rather than take some sort of 'anti-establishment' stance. To reject it is a disservice to the many who have admired his work and is the sort of futile gesture you'd expect from that old duffer Jeremy Corbyn. Such medals have long ago lost their association with empire, privilege etc and an OBE is simply a deserved recognition for those who go above and beyond, the vast majority of whom are chuffed to receive such an award from the queen.

On the subject of OBE holders, here's hoping Andy Murray finally adds a long overdue knighthood to his when the new year honours are announced :agree:

Pretty much agree with this.

[Smartie]

I never understand people who reject well-merited national recognition of their efforts. Men and women from all walks of life have been honoured to receive such accolades down the years for their outstanding public service. This guy deserves his award and he should see it as acknowledgement from the establishment that he was right to play a key role in the campaign rather than take some sort of 'anti-establishment' stance. To reject it is a disservice to the many who have admired his work and is the sort of futile gesture you'd expect from that old duffer Jeremy Corbyn. Such medals have long ago lost their association with empire, privilege etc and an OBE is simply a deserved recognition for those who go above and beyond, the vast majority of whom are chuffed to receive such an award from the queen.

On the subject of OBE holders, here's hoping Andy Murray finally adds a long overdue knighthood to his when the new year honours are announced :agree:

The biggest part of Scraton's life's work was in exposing what really happened in a massive establishment cover-up.

Why should he accept recognition of that from the same establishment?

I respect the man for this decision but to be honest, I wouldn't have expected anything less.

[northstandhibby]

I never understand people who reject well-merited national recognition of their efforts. Men and women from all walks of life have been honoured to receive such accolades down the years for their outstanding public service. This guy deserves his award and he should see it as acknowledgement from the establishment that he was right to play a key role in the campaign rather than take some sort of 'anti-establishment' stance. To reject it is a disservice to the many who have admired his work and is the sort of futile gesture you'd expect from that old duffer Jeremy Corbyn. Such medals have long ago lost their association with empire etc and an OBE is simply a deserved recognition for those who go above and beyond, the vast majority of whom are chuffed to receive such an award from the queen.

On the subject of OBE holders, here's hoping Andy Murray finally adds a long overdue knighthood to his when the new year honours are announced :agree:

:rolleyes:

The same establishment that actively covered up the truth for many years!!! No thank you and the Prof deserves a medal from the people of Liverpool and beyond for helping expose the establishment cover up.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Up to the individual to decide whether to accept or refuse. FWIW there was something corrupt and rank rotten with the way that the Hillsborough tragedy was both investigated and then reported and IMO the impacted families would get more solace from seeing the authorities responsible for the cover up being brought to account.

[JimBHibees]

I never understand people who reject well-merited national recognition of their efforts. Men and women from all walks of life have been honoured to receive such accolades down the years for their outstanding public service. This guy deserves his award and he should see it as acknowledgement from the establishment that he was right to play a key role in the campaign rather than take some sort of 'anti-establishment' stance. To reject it is a disservice to the many who have admired his work and is the sort of futile gesture you'd expect from that old duffer Jeremy Corbyn. Such medals have long ago lost their association with empire, privilege etc and an OBE is simply a deserved recognition for those who go above and beyond, the vast majority of whom are chuffed to receive such an award from the queen.

On the subject of OBE holders, here's hoping Andy Murray finally adds a long overdue knighthood to his when the new year honours are announced :agree:

Bollox why would he take a patronising accolade from the very people who fought so long to obstruct his work and the truth.

[Pretty Boy]

I never understand people who reject well-merited national recognition of their efforts. Men and women from all walks of life have been honoured to receive such accolades down the years for their outstanding public service. This guy deserves his award and he should see it as acknowledgement from the establishment that he was right to play a key role in the campaign rather than take some sort of 'anti-establishment' stance. To reject it is a disservice to the many who have admired his work and is the sort of futile gesture you'd expect from that old duffer Jeremy Corbyn. Such medals have long ago lost their association with empire, privilege etc and an OBE is simply a deserved recognition for those who go above and beyond, the vast majority of whom are chuffed to receive such an award from the queen.

On the subject of OBE holders, here's hoping Andy Murray finally adds a long overdue knighthood to his when the new year honours are announced :agree:

So he should take an award from the same establishment that tried to smear those in his community as 'murderers'. He accepted the freedom of Liverpool recently, a far more fitting tribute to the man and those he has fought alongside.

If those giving out these awards had their way most of us would never have heard of Professor Scraton and his work or would dismiss him as a conspiracy theorist. I hope he told them to stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

[Rougier45]

I never understand people who reject well-merited national recognition of their efforts. Men and women from all walks of life have been honoured to receive such accolades down the years for their outstanding public service. This guy deserves his award and he should see it as acknowledgement from the establishment that he was right to play a key role in the campaign rather than take some sort of 'anti-establishment' stance. To reject it is a disservice to the many who have admired his work and is the sort of futile gesture you'd expect from that old duffer Jeremy Corbyn. Such medals have long ago lost their association with empire, privilege etc and an OBE is simply a deserved recognition for those who go above and beyond, the vast majority of whom are chuffed to receive such an award from the queen.

On the subject of OBE holders, here's hoping Andy Murray finally adds a long overdue knighthood to his when the new year honours are announced :agree:

People can see it as they wish -if they see it as a pat on the back for services above and beyond accept it -meet the queen et al polish your medal .

If people see it as patronising nonsense designed to keep us in our place -with the unelected given out awards in an undemocratic process from the Empire -then that s fine also.

Murray will accept his knighthood when it comes and good luck to him -lets hope they let him finish his career first .

The Prof has made his decision and good luck to him also .

[NAE NOOKIE]

:rolleyes:

The same establishment that actively covered up the truth for many years!!! No thank you and the Prof deserves a medal from the people of Liverpool and beyond for helping expose the establishment cover up.

Exactly ...... The 'establishment' shat on the Hillsborough families and the people of Liverpool for decades until the work of this man and the relatives, during which time they had obstacles put in their way at every turn by that same establishment, exposed the truth. If you ask me its practically a bloody insult to him and the families to offer him one of their baubles as a reward for beating them ...... and an OBE at that, not even a bloody knighthood which would have been the least he deserved if you believe in that sort of thing, which I don't.

[flash]

I never understand people who reject well-merited national recognition of their efforts. Men and women from all walks of life have been honoured to receive such accolades down the years for their outstanding public service. This guy deserves his award and he should see it as acknowledgement from the establishment that he was right to play a key role in the campaign rather than take some sort of 'anti-establishment' stance. To reject it is a disservice to the many who have admired his work and is the sort of futile gesture you'd expect from that old duffer Jeremy Corbyn. Such medals have long ago lost their association with empire, privilege etc and an OBE is simply a deserved recognition for those who go above and beyond, the vast majority of whom are chuffed to receive such an award from the queen.

On the subject of OBE holders, here's hoping Andy Murray finally adds a long overdue knighthood to his when the new year honours are announced :agree:

And he should give The Sun a two page interview while he's at it.

[WoreTheGreen]

And he should give The Sun a two page interview while he's at it.

Accept it and throw it in the Mersey like Ali did with his olyimpic gold

[Itsnoteasy]

I never understand people who reject well-merited national recognition of their efforts. Men and women from all walks of life have been honoured to receive such accolades down the years for their outstanding public service. This guy deserves his award and he should see it as acknowledgement from the establishment that he was right to play a key role in the campaign rather than take some sort of 'anti-establishment' stance. To reject it is a disservice to the many who have admired his work and is the sort of futile gesture you'd expect from that old duffer Jeremy Corbyn. Such medals have long ago lost their association with empire, privilege etc and an OBE is simply a deserved recognition for those who go above and beyond, the vast majority of whom are chuffed to receive such an award from the queen.

On the subject of OBE holders, here's hoping Andy Murray finally adds a long overdue knighthood to his when the new year honours are announced :agree:

Posh Spice

[Scouse Hibee]

I never understand people who reject well-merited national recognition of their efforts. Men and women from all walks of life have been honoured to receive such accolades down the years for their outstanding public service. This guy deserves his award and he should see it as acknowledgement from the establishment that he was right to play a key role in the campaign rather than take some sort of 'anti-establishment' stance. To reject it is a disservice to the many who have admired his work and is the sort of futile gesture you'd expect from that old duffer Jeremy Corbyn. Such medals have long ago lost their association with empire, privilege etc and an OBE is simply a deserved recognition for those who go above and beyond, the vast majority of whom are chuffed to receive such an award from the queen.

On the subject of OBE holders, here's hoping Andy Murray finally adds a long overdue knighthood to his when the new year honours are announced :agree:

I understand him completely and applaud him......Again.

[superfurryhibby]

Ridiculous that the offer was ever made on the first place. Insulting and insensitive barely begins to describe this preposterous piece of misguided establishment ****witery.

[MB62]

I never understand people who reject well-merited national recognition of their efforts. Men and women from all walks of life have been honoured to receive such accolades down the years for their outstanding public service. This guy deserves his award and he should see it as acknowledgement from the establishment that he was right to play a key role in the campaign rather than take some sort of 'anti-establishment' stance. To reject it is a disservice to the many who have admired his work and is the sort of futile gesture you'd expect from that old duffer Jeremy Corbyn. Such medals have long ago lost their association with empire, privilege etc and an OBE is simply a deserved recognition for those who go above and beyond, the vast majority of whom are chuffed to receive such an award from the queen.

On the subject of OBE holders, here's hoping Andy Murray finally adds a long overdue knighthood to his when the new year honours are announced :agree:


Pretty much agree with this.

Pretty much Disagree with this

[ancient hibee]

Interesting that two of the campaigning relatives have already accepted gongs.As always personal choice.The prof.is of course anti British imperialism in general.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

The biggest part of Scraton's life's work was in exposing what really happened in a massive establishment cover-up.

Why should he accept recognition of that from the same establishment?

I respect the man for this decision but to be honest, I wouldn't have expected anything less.

Very much this.

[superfurryhibby]

Interesting that two of the campaigning relatives have already accepted gongs.As always personal choice.The prof.is of course anti British imperialism in general.

Really, any link to that story?

[Cat Stanton]

I never understand people who reject well-merited national recognition of their efforts. Men and women from all walks of life have been honoured to receive such accolades down the years for their outstanding public service. This guy deserves his award and he should see it as acknowledgement from the establishment that he was right to play a key role in the campaign rather than take some sort of 'anti-establishment' stance. To reject it is a disservice to the many who have admired his work and is the sort of futile gesture you'd expect from that old duffer Jeremy Corbyn. Such medals have long ago lost their association with empire, privilege etc and an OBE is simply a deserved recognition for those who go above and beyond, the vast majority of whom are chuffed to receive such an award from the queen.

On the subject of OBE holders, here's hoping Andy Murray finally adds a long overdue knighthood to his when the new year honours are announced :agree:

He explains very, very clearly the various reasons why he refused it. And you couldn't argue with any of them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-38457928

[Keith_M]

I never understand people who reject well-merited national recognition of their efforts. Men and women from all walks of life have been honoured to receive such accolades down the years for their outstanding public service. This guy deserves his award and he should see it as acknowledgement from the establishment that he was right to play a key role in the campaign rather than take some sort of 'anti-establishment' stance. To reject it is a disservice to the many who have admired his work and is the sort of futile gesture you'd expect from that old duffer Jeremy Corbyn. Such medals have long ago lost their association with empire, privilege etc and an OBE is simply a deserved recognition for those who go above and beyond, the vast majority of whom are chuffed to receive such an award from the queen.

On the subject of OBE holders, here's hoping Andy Murray finally adds a long overdue knighthood to his when the new year honours are announced :agree:


Two comments:

Considering some of the people that receive these 'honours' (e.g. Jimmy Saville, Sir David Murray, etc), they're surely meaningless.

The 'E' in OBE, MBE refers to a long gone Empire that this country should be ashamed of, not remembering wistfully.

[stoneyburn hibs]

The Hillsborough campaigner continues to go up in my estimations.

Agree, Take yer Establishment honour and stick it up yer CBE.

[ancient hibee]

Really, any link to that story?
No.

Margaret Aspinall and Trevor Hicks got CBEs in 2014.

[jdships]

People can see it as they wish -if they see it as a pat on the back for services above and beyond accept it -meet the queen et al polish your medal .

If people see it as patronising nonsense designed to keep us in our place -with the unelected given out awards in an undemocratic process from the Empire -then that s fine also.

Murray will accept his knighthood when it comes and good luck to him -lets hope they let him finish his career first .

The Prof has made his decision and good luck to him also .

Good post 10/10 !!

[ronaldo7]

Really, any link to that story?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-30631339

For services to the bereaved families.

[southsider]

Agree, Take yer Establishment honour and stick it up yer CBE.

If I ever got one for, say, services to Vodka, that would be my reply to Lizzy

[G B Young]

Really, any link to that story?

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/hillsborough-campaigners-receive-cbes-new-8363931

Margaret Aspinall and Trevor Hicks were awarded CBEs a couple of years back and spoke of how humbled they felt to do so. If you take a look at the cross section of society which has been similarly honoured over many years it's utter tosh in this day and age to describe these awards as 'elitist'. Very few actually care that they were originally tied to a long-gone empire.

For example, I had the pleasure of being in the company of this guy a couple of years back and a more deserving recipient of such an honour would be hard to find:

http://www.eastlondonadvertiser.co.uk/news/man_behind_citizens_uk_starts_2016_with_cbe_in_new _years_honours_1_4366100

[Sir David Gray]

Pretty much Disagree with this

Opinions eh?

[JimBHibees]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-38457928


Can't really argue with the reasons given. Very brave and hugely principled man. :not worth

[northstandhibby]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-38457928


Can't really argue with the reasons given. Very brave and hugely principled man. :not worth

:top marks:top marks:top marks

It's a rare thing these days to see principled people stand up for what's right. Well done the Prof :not worth

[ronaldo7]

I never understand people who reject well-merited national recognition of their efforts. Men and women from all walks of life have been honoured to receive such accolades down the years for their outstanding public service. This guy deserves his award and he should see it as acknowledgement from the establishment that he was right to play a key role in the campaign rather than take some sort of 'anti-establishment' stance. To reject it is a disservice to the many who have admired his work and is the sort of futile gesture you'd expect from that old duffer Jeremy Corbyn. Such medals have long ago lost their association with empire, privilege etc and an OBE is simply a deserved recognition for those who go above and beyond, the vast majority of whom are chuffed to receive such an award from the queen.

On the subject of OBE holders, here's hoping Andy Murray finally adds a long overdue knighthood to his when the new year honours are announced :agree:


What complete and utter tosh.

A shiny medal doesn't make everything ok.

[snooky]

People can see it as they wish -if they see it as a pat on the back for services above and beyond accept it -meet the queen et al polish your medal .

If people see it as patronising nonsense designed to keep us in our place -with the unelected given out awards in an undemocratic process from the Empire -then that s fine also.

Murray will accept his knighthood when it comes and good luck to him -lets hope they let him finish his career first .

The Prof has made his decision and good luck to him also .

That's where I am with the knighthoods, etc.
There are many people who deserve recognition for their efforts and fair dos to them however, there are many who don't. Fred Goodwin, Philip Green, and all their like just for starters.

Personally, I'd rather receive a pat on the back from a pal or a stranger on the street than a gong from some pseudo dignitary.

[where'stheslope]

He explains very, very clearly the various reasons why he refused it. And you couldn't argue with any of them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-38457928

Its worth noting that these gongs are put forward by others for Investiture.

Not by the Government or the Social Services, it may have been the people of Liverpool themselves who put him up for it.

So although it is up to the individual to accept or decline, it could be the people who he supported who he's slapping in the face.

He could have made it clear that he would only accept it on behalf of the people of Liverpool.

[Dashing Bob S]

I never understand people who reject well-merited national recognition of their efforts. Men and women from all walks of life have been honoured to receive such accolades down the years for their outstanding public service. This guy deserves his award and he should see it as acknowledgement from the establishment that he was right to play a key role in the campaign rather than take some sort of 'anti-establishment' stance. To reject it is a disservice to the many who have admired his work and is the sort of futile gesture you'd expect from that old duffer Jeremy Corbyn. Such medals have long ago lost their association with empire, privilege etc and an OBE is simply a deserved recognition for those who go above and beyond, the vast majority of whom are chuffed to receive such an award from the queen.

On the subject of OBE holders, here's hoping Andy Murray finally adds a long overdue knighthood to his when the new year honours are announced :agree:

It's a discredited list of tax dodgers, rich embezzlers, paedophilles and perverts, with a few token and grudged sporting and community spirited people thrown in to give it a thin veneer of legitimacy. Very wise of Phil not to have his achievements sullied by association with those perverted parasites. Hang em high and mount their heads on the spikes for the bloody crows.

[G B Young]

What complete and utter tosh.

A shiny medal doesn't make everything ok.

It's not about 'making everything OK' it's about recognising the work he put in to help those affected as best he could. He would have to have been nominated for the OBE, most likely by a person or persons directly linked to the Hillsborough tragedy (the queen and the government don't make the nominations), so my point is that they are likely to feel saddened that he's turned it down.

[Canon Hannan]

It's a discredited list of tax dodgers, rich embezzlers, paedophilles and perverts, with a few token and grudged sporting and community spirited people thrown in to give it a thin veneer of legitimacy. Very wise of Phil not to have his achievements sullied by association with those perverted parasites. Hang em high and mount their heads on the spikes for the bloody crows.

Spot on DB.

[JimBHibees]

It's not about 'making everything OK' it's about recognising the work he put in to help those affected as best he could. He would have to have been nominated for the OBE, most likely by a person or persons directly linked to the Hillsborough tragedy (the queen and the government don't make the nominations), so my point is that they are likely to feel saddened that he's turned it down.

But will surely respect his heartfelt reasons for rejecting it.

[mca]

My admiration for someone always increases when I hear they have rejected the offer.


The biggest part of Scraton's life's work was in exposing what really happened in a massive establishment cover-up.

Why should he accept recognition of that from the same establishment?

I respect the man for this decision but to be honest, I wouldn't have expected anything less.


It's a discredited list of tax dodgers, rich embezzlers, paedophilles and perverts, with a few token and grudged sporting and community spirited people thrown in to give it a thin veneer of legitimacy. Very wise of Phil not to have his achievements sullied by association with those perverted parasites. Hang em high and mount their heads on the spikes for the bloody crows.


My Thoughts Exactly.. Saved me some typing guys.. thanks.. :aok:

[Scouse Hibee]

It's not about 'making everything OK' it's about recognising the work he put in to help those affected as best he could. He would have to have been nominated for the OBE, most likely by a person or persons directly linked to the Hillsborough tragedy (the queen and the government don't make the nominations), so my point is that they are likely to feel saddened that he's turned it down.

You said in your original post that it was an acknowledgement from the establishment.

[snooky]

It's a discredited list of tax dodgers, rich embezzlers, paedophilles and perverts, with a few token and grudged sporting and community spirited people thrown in to give it a thin veneer of legitimacy. Very wise of Phil not to have his achievements sullied by association with those perverted parasites. Hang em high and mount their heads on the spikes for the bloody crows.
DBS nails it.

[superfurryhibby]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-30631339

For services to the bereaved families.

Just read this. The recipient makes it clear he accepted the award out of respect for the deceased and the bereaved. Fair enough, they made a decision and went with it. I suppose sometimes these things aren't always as black and white as they may seem to those of us on the outside.

[Northernhibee]

It's a discredited list of tax dodgers, rich embezzlers, paedophilles and perverts, with a few token and grudged sporting and community spirited people thrown in to give it a thin veneer of legitimacy. Very wise of Phil not to have his achievements sullied by association with those perverted parasites. Hang em high and mount their heads on the spikes for the bloody crows.

Actually I know someone awarded the MBE after giving over three decades to the Navy. They've done a damn sight more for the country than most of the people who moan and whinge about the whole thing. This country seems to turn its nose up at celebrating those who do good for the country and it's truly sad.

[Bostonhibby]

Good on him, he will have the eternal respect and admiration of many for remaining outside the establishment he exposed and who have now tried to draw him a bit closer in.

Sent from my HTC One mini 2 using Tapatalk

[Scouse Hibee]

It's not about 'making everything OK' it's about recognising the work he put in to help those affected as best he could. He would have to have been nominated for the OBE, most likely by a person or persons directly linked to the Hillsborough tragedy (the queen and the government don't make the nominations), so my point is that they are likely to feel saddened that he's turned it down.
Public nominations only account for about a quarter of the awards so not necessarily so.

[Hibernia&Alba]

It's good to see some folk still have principles and won't be co-opted into the honours nonsense. I've lost some respect for some folk in the past who accepted them.

[southsider]

It's good to see some folk still have principles and won't be co-opted into the honours nonsense. I've lost some respect for some folk in the past who accepted them.

Proclaimers wrote a good song about this very subject.

[The Pointer]

I never understand people who reject well-merited national recognition of their efforts. Men and women from all walks of life have been honoured to receive such accolades down the years for their outstanding public service. This guy deserves his award and he should see it as acknowledgement from the establishment that he was right to play a key role in the campaign rather than take some sort of 'anti-establishment' stance. To reject it is a disservice to the many who have admired his work and is the sort of futile gesture you'd expect from that old duffer Jeremy Corbyn. Such medals have long ago lost their association with empire, privilege etc and an OBE is simply a deserved recognition for those who go above and beyond, the vast majority of whom are chuffed to receive such an award from the queen.

On the subject of OBE holders, here's hoping Andy Murray finally adds a long overdue knighthood to his when the new year honours are announced :agree:

I agree entirely. Refusing is rather sad given that the 'establishment' is not what it was and it's due public (and national) recognition from a group of people who have considered his work.

I just think it comes over as being a rather juvenile 'right-on' protest.

[nomad]

My grandfather and 3 of his brothers were killed in the battle of the Somme. The establishment sent 3 killed in action 1 missing. No apology to my grandmother.

No OBE nothing pathetic post. Why should anyone accept anything from these self serving persons.

Perhaps the chief of police in charge of the miners strike should be next to receive a smashing honour.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I agree entirely. Refusing is rather sad given that the 'establishment' is not what it was and it's due public (and national) recognition from a group of people who have considered his work.

I just think it comes over as being a rather juvenile 'right-on' protest.

Not at all. It depends upon one's reason for refusing the award. For example, if somebody who claims to be against the system of monarchy, then accepted an award, it would be hypocritical.

[monktonharp]

I never understand people who reject well-merited national recognition of their efforts. Men and women from all walks of life have been honoured to receive such accolades down the years for their outstanding public service. This guy deserves his award and he should see it as acknowledgement from the establishment that he was right to play a key role in the campaign rather than take some sort of 'anti-establishment' stance. To reject it is a disservice to the many who have admired his work and is the sort of futile gesture you'd expect from that old duffer Jeremy Corbyn. Such medals have long ago lost their association with empire, privilege etc and an OBE is simply a deserved recognition for those who go above and beyond, the vast majority of whom are chuffed to receive such an award from the queen.

On the subject of OBE holders, here's hoping Andy Murray finally adds a long overdue knighthood to his when the new year honours are announced :agree:you dinnae half talk some sheite. very much establishment with most of your posts, and very much anti-working class normal type people in my eyes. this English Queen you mention, and the current government are determined to remain in the positions they are with this fabulous establishment that you embellish but it does not wear with me, or the likes of me so I will say my piece. you will in some way try to take the moral round and accuse people of being totally wrong by deriding the Monarchy, and current medal system along with any opponents to the current government and Tory party. I, on the otherhand, would take great pleasure, nay, ecstatic orgasims if the House of Lords would slip unexpectantly into the Thames the moarn with all who sail in her in it.! As for Knighthoods, despite being a Scottish Nationalist, I am disgusted at any like Connery that would accept it.. for me, it is a system that is tainted by people that can afford the entry fee of that exclusive club and many have paid the fee and got their membership.

[Edinburgher]

The British establishment are the embodiment of evil - receiving a pat on the back from them would leave a bloody palm print.

[Dashing Bob S]

Actually I know someone awarded the MBE after giving over three decades to the Navy. They've done a damn sight more for the country than most of the people who moan and whinge about the whole thing. This country seems to turn its nose up at celebrating those who do good for the country and it's truly sad.

Nonsense. What has someone who has spent three decades in the military done, other than strong arm and bully other countries in irrelevant wars, in the interests of only the rich, and at the expense of the taxpayer? I speak as somebody who's first career was in the armed forces. Bloody waste of time.

[monktonharp]

Two comments:

Considering some of the people that receive these 'honours' (e.g. Jimmy Saville, Sir David Murray, etc), they're surely meaningless.

The 'E' in OBE, MBE refers to a long gone Empire that this country should be ashamed of, not remembering wistfully.the "E" is in the pudding. well said.:agree:

[Hibernia&Alba]

Who else has turned down the offer? David Bowie is mentioned in this thread.

The artist L.S. Lowry turned down several different offers.

[Dashing Bob S]

This one is probably best situated in the dug out.

[monktonharp]

Its worth noting that these gongs are put forward by others for Investiture.

Not by the Government or the Social Services, it may have been the people of Liverpool themselves who put him up for it.

So although it is up to the individual to accept or decline, it could be the people who he supported who he's slapping in the face.

He could have made it clear that he would only accept it on behalf of the people of Liverpool.It looks more like he is not accepting, on behalf of the people of Liverpool. many of those people will be happy with that imho.

[ronaldo7]

It's not about 'making everything OK' it's about recognising the work he put in to help those affected as best he could. He would have to have been nominated for the OBE, most likely by a person or persons directly linked to the Hillsborough tragedy (the queen and the government don't make the nominations), so my point is that they are likely to feel saddened that he's turned it down.

You mentioned that it would be a "futile gesture to reject it", and something you expect from the OLD DUFFER CORBYN. Nice.

Scraton is worth 100 of those establishment figures he'd have to mix with at the ceremony.

[Peevemor]

I never understand people who reject well-merited national recognition of their efforts. Men and women from all walks of life have been honoured to receive such accolades down the years for their outstanding public service. This guy deserves his award and he should see it as acknowledgement from the establishment that he was right to play a key role in the campaign rather than take some sort of 'anti-establishment' stance. To reject it is a disservice to the many who have admired his work and is the sort of futile gesture you'd expect from that old duffer Jeremy Corbyn. Such medals have long ago lost their association with empire, privilege etc and an OBE is simply a deserved recognition for those who go above and beyond, the vast majority of whom are chuffed to receive such an award from the queen.

On the subject of OBE holders, here's hoping Andy Murray finally adds a long overdue knighthood to his when the new year honours are announced :agree:
My (late) mother turned down an honour for community work because she felt that she wasn't any more worthy than others that worked alongside her. She was in no way trying to make a statement and almost nobody outwith our family knew about it until after her death.

I think we should respect people's right to accept or decline for whatever reason.

[monktonharp]

It's not about 'making everything OK' it's about recognising the work he put in to help those affected as best he could. He would have to have been nominated for the OBE, most likely by a person or persons directly linked to the Hillsborough tragedy (the queen and the government don't make the nominations), so my point is that they are likely to feel saddened that he's turned it down.aye, auld liz'll be sittin' there gutted so she will and the government will probably say ah well he didnae vote Brexit, it's nowt to do with us.

[BSEJVT]

Like many topic on Hibs Net these days this topic has polarised opinion.

On the one hand there are those that reject the idea as they don't believe in the institution or the ideals that support it or in the legitimacy of some of the candidates past or present.

That's absolutely fine as it is their right to do so and is a view I have some sympathy with on occasion.

Where I struggle a bit with that type of approach, as I do with many debates on Hibs Net these days, is the I am right and you are wrong indignity of it all by the combatants on either side,

There are many thousands of people over the years who have received honours, some relatively minor which has given them and their families great joy and they have viewed as their recognition (whether deserved or not) for a job well done over many years or for services to charity etc etc.

Where on earth is the harm in that?

Are there people that got recognition that shouldn't have? yes absolutely

Are there people who should have got recognition that didn't? yes absolutely

I am afraid that either side of the UK political divide has form for looking after its own, so there is no moral high ground to be had here.

To the victor go the spoils.

Unfortunately nothing in life is perfect, to link it back to our Imperial past is IMO utterly pointless, like most of us individually there are things in our past that given the chance we may have done differently but cannot.

It is what we do going forward that defines us and there is only so often you can apologies for the past.

I do find it pretty hypocritical though that some people in Britain are prepared to live off the fruits, whether direct or indirect, of that Imperial past but cannot wait to decry it without every doing anything other than moaning about it to atone for it.

[hhibs]

Two comments:

Considering some of the people that receive these 'honours' (e.g. Jimmy Saville, Sir David Murray, etc), they're surely meaningless.

The 'E' in OBE, MBE refers to a long gone Empire that this country should be ashamed of, not remembering wistfully.

Agreed.

[hhibs]

My Thoughts Exactly.. Saved me some typing guys.. thanks.. :aok:


Me too.seconded !

[monktonharp]

Actually I know someone awarded the MBE after giving over three decades to the Navy. They've done a damn sight more for the country than most of the people who moan and whinge about the whole thing. This country seems to turn its nose up at celebrating those who do good for the country and it's truly sad.Really? what did this person do for "the country"? join the Navy? are you in the Navy? funny that I get the feeling you might be. nevertheless, I have met people throughout my life, that have deserved a "bloody medal" many times, for what they have had to put up with with family problems, bad luck in life and yet they get on with it. what exactly did this Naval person deserve,more than the auld guy up the road from me,who's laddie stole his telly?

[monktonharp]

I agree entirely. Refusing is rather sad given that the 'establishment' is not what it was and it's due public (and national) recognition from a group of people who have considered his work.

I just think it comes over as being a rather juvenile 'right-on' protest.I totally disagree entirely. the establishment, can go do one, as far as I am concerned. I will protest until the day I die, regarding the "establishment" when I see wrongs, continuing to be wrongs.. long live the juveniles.!!!!!!!!!!!!! hope our modern day youth has the baws!!!!!!

[pacorosssco]

The Hillsborough campaigner continues to go up in my estimations.

Indeed, the system and network of royal recognition is the very corruption which buried the truth in order to protect the decorated officers arrogance and ignorance which sent honest football fans to their death.

[monktonharp]

[QUOTE=

Perhaps the chief of police in charge of the miners strike should be next to receive a smashing honour.[/QUOTE]think he should. certainly did a fine job against me and my mates at Orgrieve that fine sunny day .they had nice bobbie type hats, then the real deal burst out from the trees, on horseback. A bit like" on rode the 300," but that's another story.

[monktonharp]

Like many topic on Hibs Net these days this topic has polarised opinion.

On the one hand there are those that reject the idea as they don't believe in the institution or the ideals that support it or in the legitimacy of some of the candidates past or present.

That's absolutely fine as it is their right to do so and is a view I have some sympathy with on occasion.

Where I struggle a bit with that type of approach, as I do with many debates on Hibs Net these days, is the I am right and you are wrong indignity of it all by the combatants on either side,

There are many thousands of people over the years who have received honours, some relatively minor which has given them and their families great joy and they have viewed as their recognition (whether deserved or not) for a job well done over many years or for services to charity etc etc.

Where on earth is the harm in that?

Are there people that got recognition that shouldn't have? yes absolutely

Are there people who should have got recognition that didn't? yes absolutely

I am afraid that either side of the UK political divide has form for looking after its own, so there is no moral high ground to be had here.

To the victor go the spoils.

Unfortunately nothing in life is perfect, to link it back to our Imperial past is IMO utterly pointless, like most of us individually there are things in our past that given the chance we may have done differently but cannot.

It is what we do going forward that defines us and there is only so often you can apologies for the past.

I do find it pretty hypocritical though that some people in Britain are prepared to live off the fruits, whether direct or indirect, of that Imperial past but cannot wait to decry it without every doing anything other than moaning about it to atone for it.
I find some of your response rather confusing, although it may be me. Nothing is perfect, in life of course but don't try and apologise for the actions of Imperialism as there are no apologies, certainly in my mind.the Institution is based on Imperialism, the end letters of the "gong" say it abundantly. you have some syphathy on occasion, how brave of you!!! I have an opinion, and will state it. does not mean that I am right or wrong but when it comes to a subject as sensative as this , I will say my piece. don't try and be so wishy washy, because it aint gonna happen on this one! as for the "Imperial past" don't for a minute think that "Great Britain" would like to rewind and forget/apologise to more than half the globe for what was done.. very good of us to give back to the Natives, their countries of Ghana, Jamaica,Nigeria,New Zealand, Australia, Canada,Belize (might still be ours) Malta, Cyprus, Pakistan, Borneo, Singapore, Hong Kong, Siam, etcetcetc.
I for one will never atone for those acts and I also feel disgusted that we have a monument at the "Fit o' the Walk in memory of the Empress of India..... could be made of bronze, and I'd happily take it along to Salamander Street to Daltons.no charge.

[pacorosssco]

I find some of your response rather confusing, although it may be me. Nothing is perfect, in life of course but don't try and apologise for the actions of Imperialism as there are no apologies, certainly in my mind.the Institution is based on Imperialism, the end letters of the "gong" say it abundantly. you have some syphathy on occasion, how brave of you!!! I have an opinion, and will state it. does not mean that I am right or wrong but when it comes to a subject as sensative as this , I will say my piece. don't try and be so wishy washy, because it aint gonna happen on this one! as for the "Imperial past" don't for a minute think that "Great Britain" would like to rewind and forget/apologise to more than half the globe for what was done.. very good of us to give back to the Natives, their countries of Ghana, Jamaica,Nigeria,New Zealand, Australia, Canada,Belize (might still be ours) Malta, Cyprus, Pakistan, Borneo, Singapore, Hong Kong, Siam, etcetcetc.
I for one will never atone for those acts and I also feel disgusted that we have a monument at the "Fit o' the Walk in memory of the Empress of India..... could be made of bronze, and I'd happily take it along to Salamander Street to Daltons.no charge.

melt remake as famous five monument :) even America as faffed as it is dont get our honour system. A side point also those who do work on empire behalf are also hung out to dry if it suits. Good police officers suffered also and were bullied made to lie that sad day

[Rougier45]

Nonsense. What has someone who has spent three decades in the military done, other than strong arm and bully other countries in irrelevant wars, in the interests of only the rich, and at the expense of the taxpayer? I speak as somebody who's first career was in the armed forces. Bloody waste of time.

Well said -, and it was also well said in recent film about Brit in NI who gets lost and is hunted by both sides - I think it goes

Thick c--t kills some poor cu-- for rich c---

[BSEJVT]

I find some of your response rather confusing, although it may be me. Nothing is perfect, in life of course but don't try and apologise for the actions of Imperialism as there are no apologies, certainly in my mind.the Institution is based on Imperialism, the end letters of the "gong" say it abundantly. you have some syphathy on occasion, how brave of you!!! I have an opinion, and will state it. does not mean that I am right or wrong but when it comes to a subject as sensative as this , I will say my piece. don't try and be so wishy washy, because it aint gonna happen on this one! as for the "Imperial past" don't for a minute think that "Great Britain" would like to rewind and forget/apologise to more than half the globe for what was done.. very good of us to give back to the Natives, their countries of Ghana, Jamaica,Nigeria,New Zealand, Australia, Canada,Belize (might still be ours) Malta, Cyprus, Pakistan, Borneo, Singapore, Hong Kong, Siam, etcetcetc.
I for one will never atone for those acts and I also feel disgusted that we have a monument at the "Fit o' the Walk in memory of the Empress of India..... could be made of bronze, and I'd happily take it along to Salamander Street to Daltons.no charge.

Quick happy to debate the point with you but I find the above post undecipherable in parts

I have pretty strong views on various points but have never found your aggressive style of debate actually engenders much debate as it's completely over the top and more of a rant than a debating stance

I have thought of debating some of the points you have raised in the past but been dissuaded from doing so as there seems no point. We shall see

I also think that this is becoming the preferred style of many on Hibs Net

You seem to be having a bit of difficulty separating the actions of the state from the actions of the people and for harking back to the actions of a state that has moved on in terms of its imperial past?

There runs throughout your posts on this and related topics the idea that the workers are oppressed

While this undoubtedly was the case pre emancipation it's difficult to argue that it is the case post emancipation as the people get the government the majority of them vote for

That's the problem with a democracy, you need to live by the wishes of the majority

If all people are prepared to do is moan about their opposition running the country then it's going to be a long unhappy life

It's tragic that people of all persuasions feel disenfranchised from politics and have stopped engaging and maybe we are getting the governance we deserve?

Maybe Brexit / Trump (Ffs) is the start of that re-engagement? Albeit gone horribly wrong

[heretoday]

The British establishment are the embodiment of evil - receiving a pat on the back from them would leave a bloody palm print.

It would be ironic though for the establishment to have to reward an individual whom they would gladly have seen the back of.

[Pretty Boy]

It would be ironic though for the establishment to have to reward an individual whom they would gladly have seen the back of.

Maybe a posthumous knighthood for Dr David Kelly should be next?

[BSEJVT]

It would be ironic though for the establishment to have to reward an individual whom they would gladly have seen the back of.

All power to campaigning law abiding individuals establishments would gladly see the back off, it is people like that who hold them accountable for their miss deeds and actions.

[Northernhibee]

Really? what did this person do for "the country"? join the Navy? are you in the Navy? funny that I get the feeling you might be. nevertheless, I have met people throughout my life, that have deserved a "bloody medal" many times, for what they have had to put up with with family problems, bad luck in life and yet they get on with it. what exactly did this Naval person deserve,more than the auld guy up the road from me,who's laddie stole his telly?

We all have bad luck and family problems. Why does that deserve extra?

My oh my are there some bitter people on here. The face of modern Scottish nationalism is alive and well on this thread.

[CropleyWasGod]

We all have bad luck and family problems. Why does that deserve extra?

My oh my are there some bitter people on here. The face of modern Scottish nationalism is alive and well on this thread.

Not sure what "Scottish nationalism" has to do with this. The notion of the Honours system is one that divides British society; and that debate is usually polarised by one's right/left leanings, rather than one's nationality.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Abolish the monarchy and there'll be no honours system to squabble about :agree:

[G B Young]

Like many topic on Hibs Net these days this topic has polarised opinion.

On the one hand there are those that reject the idea as they don't believe in the institution or the ideals that support it or in the legitimacy of some of the candidates past or present.

That's absolutely fine as it is their right to do so and is a view I have some sympathy with on occasion.

Where I struggle a bit with that type of approach, as I do with many debates on Hibs Net these days, is the I am right and you are wrong indignity of it all by the combatants on either side,

There are many thousands of people over the years who have received honours, some relatively minor which has given them and their families great joy and they have viewed as their recognition (whether deserved or not) for a job well done over many years or for services to charity etc etc.

Where on earth is the harm in that?

Are there people that got recognition that shouldn't have? yes absolutely

Are there people who should have got recognition that didn't? yes absolutely

I am afraid that either side of the UK political divide has form for looking after its own, so there is no moral high ground to be had here.

To the victor go the spoils.

Unfortunately nothing in life is perfect, to link it back to our Imperial past is IMO utterly pointless, like most of us individually there are things in our past that given the chance we may have done differently but cannot.

It is what we do going forward that defines us and there is only so often you can apologies for the past.

I do find it pretty hypocritical though that some people in Britain are prepared to live off the fruits, whether direct or indirect, of that Imperial past but cannot wait to decry it without every doing anything other than moaning about it to atone for it.

That's well put. Official 'apologies' for deeds that often took place long before those doing the apologising were born, or demands to tear down monuments to those whom the passing of time has seen public opinion shift serve little purpose in my view. These deeds and monuments are part of the history that shapes us as a nation and are important barometers of the progress each succeeding generation attempts to make. Learning from the past is what counts, not constantly 'apologising' for things we cannot change.

As you point out, it seems mean-spirited in the extreme to criticise somebody who takes pride in the medal awarded to their mum, dad, son or daughter which sits proudly in the family home. To regard such simple pride as synonymous with imperialism is surely misguided in the 21st century.

[CropleyWasGod]

That's well put. Official 'apologies' for deeds that often took place long before those doing the apologising were born, or demands to tear down monuments to those whom the passing of time has seen public opinion shift serve little purpose in my view. These deeds and monuments are part of the history that shapes us as a nation and are important barometers of the progress each succeeding generation attempts to make. Learning from the past is what counts, not constantly 'apologising' for things we cannot change.

As you point out, it seems mean-spirited in the extreme to criticise somebody who takes pride in the medal awarded to their mum, dad, son or daughter which sits proudly in the family home. To regard such simple pride as synonymous with imperialism is surely misguided in the 21st century.

As long as the awards have the letter "E", is it any wonder that they are associated with imperialism?

[One Day Soon]

you dinnae half talk some sheite. very much establishment with most of your posts, and very much anti-working class normal type people in my eyes. this English Queen you mention, and the current government are determined to remain in the positions they are with this fabulous establishment that you embellish but it does not wear with me, or the likes of me so I will say my piece. you will in some way try to take the moral round and accuse people of being totally wrong by deriding the Monarchy, and current medal system along with any opponents to the current government and Tory party. I, on the otherhand, would take great pleasure, nay, ecstatic orgasims if the House of Lords would slip unexpectantly into the Thames the moarn with all who sail in her in it.! As for Knighthoods, despite being a Scottish Nationalist, I am disgusted at any like Connery that would accept it.. for me, it is a system that is tainted by people that can afford the entry fee of that exclusive club and many have paid the fee and got their membership.

Is it only working class people who are normal?

[One Day Soon]

My (late) mother turned down an honour for community work because she felt that she wasn't any more worthy than others that worked alongside her. She was in no way trying to make a statement and almost nobody outwith our family knew about it until after her death.

I think we should respect people's right to accept or decline for whatever reason.


Contrary to earlier postings, it's Peevemor who has nailed it.

[One Day Soon]

Like many topic on Hibs Net these days this topic has polarised opinion.

On the one hand there are those that reject the idea as they don't believe in the institution or the ideals that support it or in the legitimacy of some of the candidates past or present.

That's absolutely fine as it is their right to do so and is a view I have some sympathy with on occasion.

Where I struggle a bit with that type of approach, as I do with many debates on Hibs Net these days, is the I am right and you are wrong indignity of it all by the combatants on either side,

There are many thousands of people over the years who have received honours, some relatively minor which has given them and their families great joy and they have viewed as their recognition (whether deserved or not) for a job well done over many years or for services to charity etc etc.

Where on earth is the harm in that?

Are there people that got recognition that shouldn't have? yes absolutely

Are there people who should have got recognition that didn't? yes absolutely

I am afraid that either side of the UK political divide has form for looking after its own, so there is no moral high ground to be had here.

To the victor go the spoils.

Unfortunately nothing in life is perfect, to link it back to our Imperial past is IMO utterly pointless, like most of us individually there are things in our past that given the chance we may have done differently but cannot.

It is what we do going forward that defines us and there is only so often you can apologies for the past.

I do find it pretty hypocritical though that some people in Britain are prepared to live off the fruits, whether direct or indirect, of that Imperial past but cannot wait to decry it without every doing anything other than moaning about it to atone for it.


Virtue signalling is very popular these days. You'll find the First Minister loves doing it on Twitter on any issue she can - and plenty of others have now followed in her footsteps.

[BSEJVT]

As long as the awards have the letter "E", is it any wonder that they are associated with imperialism?

They are associated with imperialism only by those that wish to do so.

The empire is long gone, the use of it in these awards is an anachronism, but is it really necessary to reset / rename continuously everything that we have moved on from, we would never be done.

The assertion that your support or antipathy towards an " honours" system is based on your political leanings is absolute nonsense.

"Honours" systems exist /existed in countries of every political hue from North Korea to Nazi Germany

Other than the fact that they are inevitably flawed to some extent, I cannot see for the life of me the problem with citizens being rewarded for efforts which are above and beyond the call of duty.

For many it is the only tangible reward they will ever receive and if it makes them feel good what on earth is the harm?

[BSEJVT]

Contrary to earlier postings, it's Peevemor who has nailed it.

Absolutely 100%

Its there's to accept or decline and whatever they decide to do is their right.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Well, this thread hasnae really gone how I envisaged, I couldnae really give a donald duck about Imperialism/Royalty, I just thought it would be a tad hypocritical of the Prof to accept the award after what he has been up against for almost 30 years.

[Future17]

I do find it pretty hypocritical though that some people in Britain are prepared to live off the fruits, whether direct or indirect, of that Imperial past but cannot wait to decry it without every doing anything other than moaning about it to atone for it.

I think I agree with a lot of what you've said, but I don't understand this part. What exactly do you mean by "the fruits" of Britain's imperial past in this context? What would you suggest people do to "atone" for it?


The empire is long gone, the use of it in these awards is an anachronism, but is it really necessary to reset / rename continuously everything that we have moved on from, we would never be done.

What other examples are there of things we would have to reset or rename?

[southsider]

Who else has turned down the offer? David Bowie is mentioned in this thread.

The artist L.S. Lowry turned down several different offers.
John Lennon did but McC accepted

[ekhibee]

I find hypocrites like Neil Kinnock far more annoying than somebody who's accepted a commendation of some kind. The House of Lords should have been abolished decades ago and people like him who were frequently criticizing it when they were MP's and then took a seat there represent all that's wrong in politics nowadays. Maybe I sound a bit too extreme but IMO nobody in the Labour Party, the party that's meant to represent the ordinary working man, should have anything to do with an institution like that. That's just my opinion though. I would never, on the other hand, criticize the award of honours to somebody who fought and distinguished themselves in war. Maybe that's why I'm disappointed with the likes of Paddy Ashdown, a genuine war hero with many years service in the Marines and the SBS. He's Baron something or other now. It's an emotive subject though, and there are vaild arguments on both sides.

[Hibby70]

What a bunch of hypocrites you are.

Can't remember such a outcry when David Gray got knighted.

[ancient hibee]

John Lennon did but McC accepted

Think you'll find that the Beatles all accepted a gong originally.Naturally the papers were full at the time of diatribes from colonels objecting to these long haired louts.

[marinello59]

John Lennon did but McC accepted

John Lennon happily accepted his award. He returned it a few years later though.

[AndyM_1875]

Its entirely up to the individual.
Professor Scraton has his reasons which he has articulated well and I support them 100%..

If Andy Murray is offered a knighthood and chooses to accept it then similarly good luck to him.

[Moulin Yarns]

Lynn Faulds Wood has turned down an MBE for service on consumer safety. Saying the honour system needs to be dragged into the 21st century. The word Empire is what she objects to.

[G B Young]

What other examples are there of things we would have to reset or rename?

Schools and colleges, in particular in the United States, often find themselves at the heart of student 'outrage' due to the fact their founder was centuries ago associated with, say, the slave trade or segregationist policies, and there are regular demands that statues or memorials to such people be torn down. But what purpose would that really serve? Back then, such views were widely held (there are plenty of examples of long-established Scottish families and businesses who themselves benefited from the slave trade) so to condemn them from a 21st Century perspective is somewhat skewed. To put things in a more recent context, should we tear down Stoke Mandeville Hospital because it was built by Jimmy Savile's charitable donations? Or should anyone who grew up buying Gary Glitter records have that formative time in their life erased?

The point is that history can be used to provide a balanced perspective on such people and provided we draw the right lessons from such history we can (hopefully!) move forward constructively. By all means change the name of MBEs, OBEs, CBEs etc if there is a clear demand for it, but as far as I'm aware there isn't and most of those who receive such accolades these days see the reference to empire as little more than a bygone curiosity.

[Canon Hannan]

Schools and colleges, in particular in the United States, often find themselves at the heart of student 'outrage' due to the fact their founder was centuries ago associated with, say, the slave trade or segregationist policies, and there are regular demands that statues or memorials to such people be torn down. But what purpose would that really serve? Back then, such views were widely held (there are plenty of examples of long-established Scottish families and businesses who themselves benefited from the slave trade) so to condemn them from a 21st Century perspective is somewhat skewed. To put things in a more recent context, should we tear down Stoke Mandeville Hospital because it was built by Jimmy Savile's charitable donations? Or should anyone who grew up buying Gary Glitter records have that formative time in their life erased?

The point is that history can be used to provide a balanced perspective on such people and provided we draw the right lessons from such history we can (hopefully!) move forward constructively. By all means change the name of MBEs, OBEs, CBEs etc if there is a clear demand for it, but as far as I'm aware there isn't and most of those who receive such accolades these days see the reference to empire as little more than a bygone curiosity.

GB have a look at your passport and notice our beautiful Unicorn is chained by the English Lion! Just bygone curiosity there????

[G B Young]

GB have a look at your passport and notice our beautiful Unicorn is chained by the English Lion! Just bygone curiosity there????

I'll be honest, I've never noticed that and in fact I had long forgotten that a unicorn had any association with Scotland. How many people DO still know that? I actually thought the 'Lion Rampant' was our national animal. Now that you've pointed it out though, I do recall an old poem at school about the lion and the unicorn fighting for the crown.

Intriguingly, upon further research, I see that the previous (pre-Union) Scottish coat of arms features TWO unicorns, both chained despite there being no English lion on the scene. How does that square with being yoked to England? Is it not the case that they simply used the image of the chained unicorn on the new coat of arms? When you look at the image on a passport the unicorn does not actually appear to be chained to the lion.

So in answer to your question, yes, in my view this is simply another bygone curiosity, albeit one that has piqued MY curiosity!

[w pilton hibby]

I'll be honest, I've never noticed that and in fact I had long forgotten that a unicorn had any association with Scotland. How many people DO still know that? I actually thought the 'Lion Rampant' was our national animal. Now that you've pointed it out though, I do recall an old poem at school about the lion and the unicorn fighting for the crown.

Intriguingly, upon further research, I see that the previous (pre-Union) Scottish coat of arms features TWO unicorns, both chained despite there being no English lion on the scene. How does that square with being yoked to England? Is it not the case that they simply used the image of the chained unicorn on the new coat of arms? When you look at the image on a passport the unicorn does not actually appear to be chained to the lion.

So in answer to your question, yes, in my view this is simply another bygone curiosity, albeit one that has piqued MY curiosity!

The heraldic unicorn of Scotland is always pictured as being chained, because according to folklore a free unicorn was a dangerous beast.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Maybe a posthumous knighthood for Dr David Kelly should be next?

Brilliant:aok: .......... being right sometimes gets you an award, sometimes it can get you killed ..... allegedly.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Lynn Faulds Wood has turned down an MBE for service on consumer safety. Saying the honour system needs to be dragged into the 21st century. The word Empire is what she objects to.


:agree:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38470922

Former BBC Watchdog presenter Lynn Faulds Wood has rejected an MBE, saying the honours system needs to be dragged "into the 21st Century".

"I would love to have an honour if it didn't have the word 'empire' on the end of it. We don't have an empire, in my opinion," she added.

[NAE NOOKIE]

During my time in the Civil Service every year a thing was punted round the workforce asking for nominations for awards. The instructions were pretty explicit .... stuff like knighthoods and OBE's were reserved for the very highest grades and if any plebs were to be nominated for an MBE or the likes serving in the Civil Service for a zillion years wasn't enough, it had to be backed up with charity work or good works in the community.

My point being that even the honours system is based on the same medieval class system as the one that makes some chinless git head of state for being born to the right family ...... Knighthoods to sports stars and music stars being the exception, but even then that's probably just a sop to keep the proles happy.

Its just as mystifying who gets awards and who doesn't ..... why did Matt Busby get a knighthood and Jock Stein not? Why did Seb Coe go on to a lordship and Steve Ovett only manage a measly OBE? Why did the brilliant Christopher Lee get a knighthood but the equally brilliant Peter Cushing not? Why did Bob Geldof get a knighthood when the guy who co wrote 'do they know its Christmas' and co organized band aid and live aid and has had a far more successful music career ( the pinnacle being a stint in Thin Lizzy :greengrin ) only get an OBE? ... IE Midge Ure.

Time for an overhaul of the whole stupid system with awards based on merit and certainly not on a downward scale depending on your place in the social structure.

Once the glorious day comes that we are a republic awards will be stuff like:

Peoples award for sport .... 1st, 2nd, 3rd class
Peoples award for business .... 1st, 2nd, 3rd class
Peoples award for public service ... 1st, 2nd, 3rd class
Peoples award for charity or community service .... 1st, 2nd, 3rd class
etc etc.

With the level of the award based on the size of the contribution, not based on contribution x how far up the social ladder you are.

[Malthibby]

During my time in the Civil Service every year a thing was punted round the workforce asking for nominations for awards. The instructions were pretty explicit .... stuff like knighthoods and OBE's were reserved for the very highest grades and if any plebs were to be nominated for an MBE or the likes serving in the Civil Service for a zillion years wasn't enough, it had to be backed up with charity work or good works in the community.

My point being that even the honours system is based on the same medieval class system as the one that makes some chinless git head of state for being born to the right family ...... Knighthoods to sports stars and music stars being the exception, but even then that's probably just a sop to keep the proles happy.

Its just as mystifying who gets awards and who doesn't ..... why did Matt Busby get a knighthood and Jock Stein not? Why did Seb Coe go on to a lordship and Steve Ovett only manage a measly OBE? Why did the brilliant Christopher Lee get a knighthood but the equally brilliant Peter Cushing not? Why did Bob Geldof get a knighthood when the guy who co wrote 'do they know its Christmas' and co organized band aid and live aid and has had a far more successful music career ( the pinnacle being a stint in Thin Lizzy :greengrin ) only get an OBE? ... IE Midge Ure.

Time for an overhaul of the whole stupid system with awards based on merit and certainly not on a downward scale depending on your place in the social structure.

Once the glorious day comes that we are a republic awards will be stuff like:

Peoples award for sport .... 1st, 2nd, 3rd class
Peoples award for business .... 1st, 2nd, 3rd class
Peoples award for public service ... 1st, 2nd, 3rd class
Peoples award for charity or community service .... 1st, 2nd, 3rd class
etc etc.

With the level of the award based on the size of the contribution, not based on contribution x how far up the social ladder you are.


:agree: Great when someone saves you the trouble of writing; it's a corrupt, cozy little system which throws the odd bone to the proletariat & helps promote
the idea that Betty & Co are still relevant to us. Txtxl bxllxcks.

[ronaldo7]

Lynn Faulds Wood has turned down an MBE for service on consumer safety. Saying the honour system needs to be dragged into the 21st century. The word Empire is what she objects to.

She also said this. "And I've changed laws and I've helped saved a lot of people's lives, so maybe I'm deserving of an honour, but I just wouldn't accept it while we still have party donors donating huge amounts of money and getting an honour."

She got it spot on imo.

[Carheenlea]

Andy Murray to be knighted in the New Years Honours it has just been announced.

[Tom Hart RIP]

Andy Murray to be knighted in the New Years Honours it has just been announced.

MBE for Michael O'Neil

[cleanyman]

Should have waited until Murray retired.

[Scouse Hibee]

Arise Sir Ken Dodd

[O'Rourke3]

Arise Sir Ken Dodd
For tax evasion?

Sent via the bushes @ EM

[Scouse Hibee]

For tax evasion?

Sent via the bushes @ EM

Did he?...................No Doddy ;-)

[O'Rourke3]

Did he?...................No Doddy ;-)
Deh do doh dont dey doh...

Sent via the bushes @ EM

[ihibs7]

I think the tide is changing on honours, and more and more people will reject them. Might see the end of the current system within 10 years.

There's question marks over the medical assistance of some recent awardees & some of the awardees seem to fall well short of deserving.

How very corrupt, and how very British


She also said this. "And I've changed laws and I've helped saved a lot of people's lives, so maybe I'm deserving of an honour, but I just wouldn't accept it while we still have party donors donating huge amounts of money and getting an honour."

She got it spot on imo.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BSEJVT]

The one thing that staggers me about this thread is the amount of posters on it who appear to hate Britain and everything we are and stand for.

You do all realise that the option to move to another country is open to you?

Good luck finding one that meets your standards!

Alternatively instead of moaning about it on an internet forum, why not get engaged in politics and try and do something about what you see as our shortcomings?

But I suppose that might take a bit of effort and its just far easier and so much more populist to just moan your tits off about the present situation.

[JimBHibees]

The one thing that staggers me about this thread is the amount of posters on it who appear to hate Britain and everything we are and stand for.

You do all realise that the option to move to another country is open to you?

Good luck finding one that meets your standards!

Alternatively instead of moaning about it on an internet forum, why not get engaged in politics and try and do something about what you see as our shortcomings?

But I suppose that might take a bit of effort and its just far easier and so much more populist to just moan your tits off about the present situation.

A bit of a leap to equate criticising the honours system to hating Britain and all we stand for. The system is hugely random and also politically motivated and the use of the term British empire when clearly there isn't one is unnecessary. Having a country also call itself great in this day and age really needs to have a look at itself IMO.

[Pretty Boy]

A bit of a leap to equate criticising the honours system to hating Britain and all we stand for. The system is hugely random and also politically motivated and the use of the term British empire when clearly there isn't one is unnecessary. Having a country also call itself great in this day and age really needs to have a look at itself IMO.

Tbh I always find terms like 'what Britain stands for' or 'British values' a bit vague and confusing anyway.

When you ask people to expand on this they usually just list a load of things that, in theory at least, apply to loads of countries in the developed world (and I'm sure a fair few in the developing as well).

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

The one thing that staggers me about this thread is the amount of posters on it who appear to hate Britain and everything we are and stand for.

You do all realise that the option to move to another country is open to you?

Good luck finding one that meets your standards!

Alternatively instead of moaning about it on an internet forum, why not get engaged in politics and try and do something about what you see as our shortcomings?

But I suppose that might take a bit of effort and its just far easier and so much more populist to just moan your tits off about the present situation.

Wow, this place seems to really be hacking you off recently, maybe its time to take a wee break for a while or just chill out a bit.

[Canon Hannan]

The one thing that staggers me about this thread is the amount of posters on it who appear to hate Britain and everything we are and stand for.

You do all realise that the option to move to another country is open to you?

Good luck finding one that meets your standards!

Alternatively instead of moaning about it on an internet forum, why not get engaged in politics and try and do something about what you see as our shortcomings?

But I suppose that might take a bit of effort and its just far easier and so much more populist to just moan your tits off about the present situation.

Shocking statement. Are you UKIP?
Britain is separating us from our European friends and I will happily stand tall as a ScottishEuropean in future. Good luck with little Britain and their inward thinking racism.

[BSEJVT]

A bit of a leap to equate criticising the honours system to hating Britain and all we stand for. The system is hugely random and also politically motivated and the use of the term British empire when clearly there isn't one is unnecessary. Having a country also call itself great in this day and age really needs to have a look at itself IMO.

Disagree entirely

All folk do is moan, yet never get off their ***** to do anything about it.

Never have a good word to say about all the things we do and have done but can hark back to every slight we have visited upon the world and btw that's as true of their criticism of Scotland either as a stand alone county or as part of Great Britain.

Every honours system is random and you could argue that most actions are politically motivated depending upon your perspective.

I would agree that Empire is an anachronism but its a pretty unimportant one.

As for renaming ourselves Wtf, Should we maybe consider renaming Scotland as its no longer a land just of Scots?

[JimBHibees]

Tbh I always find terms like 'what Britain stands for' or 'British values' a bit vague and confusing anyway.

When you ask people to expand on this they usually just list a load of things that, in theory at least, apply to loads of countries in the developed world (and I'm sure a fair few in the developing as well).

Couldn't agree more hugely patronising to think your set of values which may or may not be able to be quantified are better than other countries similar or same values.

[BSEJVT]

Shocking statement. Are you UKIP?
Britain is separating us from our European friends and I will happily stand tall as a ScottishEuropean in future. Good luck with little Britain and their inward thinking racism.

Congratulations you have totally proved my point

Britain is not separating us

The people of Britain have democratically decided to separate us (an action I am not personally in favour of but that's democracy for you)

[JimBHibees]

Disagree entirely

All folk do is moan, yet never get off their ***** to do anything about it.

Never have a good word to say about all the things we do and have done but can hark back to every slight we have visited upon the world and btw that's as true of their criticism of Scotland either as a stand alone county or as part of Great Britain.

Every honours system is random and you could argue that most actions are politically motivated depending upon your perspective.

I would agree that Empire is an anachronism but its a pretty unimportant one.

As for renaming ourselves Wtf, Should we maybe consider renaming Scotland as its no longer a land just of Scots?

Great Britain why not Amazing America hugely self indulgent.

[Jim44]

From my comfy position on the fence, can I suggest that this thread is the wrong place for this political debate. :smug:

[BSEJVT]

Couldn't agree more hugely patronising to think your set of values which may or may not be able to be quantified are better than other countries similar or same values.

And yet again you miss the point

We share many similar values with lots of countries

Some of our values are more peculiar to us, such as the monarchy and the Commonwealth

Lets not forget that Britain stood alone to stand up for some of these countries after their defeat, for no other reason than it was the right thing to do.

I don't see any allowance for that but plenty carping about the empire

What I don't see exhibited in these countries is their self loathing

Britain isn't perfect but it also isn't deserving of the self loathing I see exhibited on this thread

As I keep saying if people don't like it, then the beauty of a democracy is you can change it, if you can be bothered.

Its the incessant whinging that does my head in.

[Canon Hannan]

Congratulations you have totally proved my point

Britain is not separating us

The people of Britain have democratically decided to separate us (an action I am not personally in favour of but that's democracy for you)

The last time I looked Britain has dragged Scotland out of Europe against our wishes. We will be reunited with our friends soon while Britain not including Scotland rules her waves and disappears back into the dark ages under Imerialistic British Nationalism. My French and Italian friends are delighted Scotland wants to work with them. Scotlands time has come to clear ourselves of the Evil British Nationalism and racism that blights the people you seem to admire.

[cleanyman]

The last time I looked Britain has dragged Scotland out of Europe against our wishes. We will be reunited with our friends soon while Britain not including Scotland rules her waves and disappears back into the dark ages under Imerialistic British Nationalism. My French and Italian friends are delighted Scotland wants to work with them. Scotlands time has come to clear ourselves of the Evil British Nationalism and racism that blights the people you seem to admire.

Give it a rest

[BSEJVT]

Great Britain why not Amazing America hugely self indulgent.

Found this on my friend google

As was said before the term "great" was meant as "larger" as opposed to "lesser" Britain (which is referred to as "Brittany" in English at the present time).
-----------
It is actually a very old term, used perhaps hundreds of years before the Norman conquest. Many of the Britons crossed the channel to get away from the Anglo Saxon invasion and formed "lesser Britain". King James preferred to be called the King of Great Britain, rather than the King of England, Wales, and Scotland. Parliament at the time objected to the term, but ther king overruled him.
-----------
By the time the parliaments were united, the term was accepted as the name of the nation. When Ireland was fully absorbed, "Great Britain" was replaced with the United Kingdom.
-----------
Should Northern Ireland choose to adopt the Euro and unite with the Republic of Ireland in the future, the country may re-adopt the name, but is more likely to simply call themselves Britain.

May be bollocks but maybe not

I just don't see the reason to continuously revisit terminology that is inoffensive because the world has moved on

[Canon Hannan]

[QUOTE=cleanyman;4891893]Give it a rest.
Full of energy and ready for battle and the campaign thanks. Rest is for the weak. Maybe my view is not yours? Looking forward to you saying the same to UKIP supporter BSEJamVTarts on the thread? 😂👍

[BSEJVT]

The last time I looked Britain has dragged Scotland out of Europe against our wishes. We will be reunited with our friends soon while Britain not including Scotland rules her waves and disappears back into the dark ages under Imerialistic British Nationalism. My French and Italian friends are delighted Scotland wants to work with them. Scotlands time has come to clear ourselves of the Evil British Nationalism and racism that blights the people you seem to admire.

Which part of democracy don't you understand?

Scotland had the chance to vote to become independent, it voted against doing so?

Consequently the people of Scotland are bound to accept the result of the "Brexit" referendum at least until a further referendum on our Independence changes that.

Does democracy only count when it produces the results you want?

You know nothing about me, you have no idea what I am or what I believe to don't tell me what I admire as you are so far of the mark you cant even see it.

I am just totally fed up with people like you complaining incessantly?

What are you doing to bring about the changes you desire?

If you are campaigning on them good on you.

[BSEJVT]

[QUOTE=cleanyman;4891893]Give it a rest.
Full of energy and ready for battle and the campaign thanks. Rest is for the weak. Maybe my view is not yours? Looking forward to you saying the same to UKIP supporter on the thread? 😂👍

UKIP supporter?

Give it a rest

If your best debating tactic is to resort to playground name calling crack on.

[Canon Hannan]

Which part of democracy don't you understand?

Scotland had the chance to vote to become independent, it voted against doing so?

Consequently the people of Scotland are bound to accept the result of the "Brexit" referendum at least until a further referendum on our Independence changes that.

Does democracy only count when it produces the results you want?

You know nothing about me, you have no idea what I am or what I believe to don't tell me what I admire as you are so far of the mark you cant even see it.

I am just totally fed up with people like you complaining incessantly?

What are you doing to bring about the changes you desire?

If you are campaigning on them good on you.

Yes I campaign thanks. But when you tell people to leave the Country it does not cover you in glory.
But this is a Hibs thread and I would rather talk about that thanks 👍

[BSEJVT]

Yes I campaign thanks.
But this is a Hibs thread and I would rather talk about that thanks 👍

Is that why you entered into the debate then?

If your campaigning abilities are the same as you have exhibited on this thread then I don't see you having a successful career in it

You know absolutely **** all about Hibs or football either judging by your posting on Hibs related threads

[Hibernia&Alba]

It's getting a bit heated lads. Agree tae differ, eh?

[Canon Hannan]

Is that why you entered into the debate then?

If your campaigning abilities are the same as you have exhibited on this thread then I don't see you having a successful career in it

You know absolutely **** all about Hibs or football either judging by your posting on Hibs related threads

Nippy sweety 😂😂😂🙏🙏🙏
Peace my friend- relax 😎🇳🇬

[BSEJVT]

Nippy sweety 😂😂😂🙏🙏🙏
Peace my friend- relax 😎🇳🇬

And to you

[lyonhibs]

Quick happy to debate the point with you but I find the above post undecipherable in parts

I have pretty strong views on various points but have never found your aggressive style of debate actually engenders much debate as it's completely over the top and more of a rant than a debating stance

I have thought of debating some of the points you have raised in the past but been dissuaded from doing so as there seems no point. We shall see

I also think that this is becoming the preferred style of many on Hibs Net

You seem to be having a bit of difficulty separating the actions of the state from the actions of the people and for harking back to the actions of a state that has moved on in terms of its imperial past?

There runs throughout your posts on this and related topics the idea that the workers are oppressed

While this undoubtedly was the case pre emancipation it's difficult to argue that it is the case post emancipation as the people get the government the majority of them vote for

That's the problem with a democracy, you need to live by the wishes of the majority

If all people are prepared to do is moan about their opposition running the country then it's going to be a long unhappy life

It's tragic that people of all persuasions feel disenfranchised from politics and have stopped engaging and maybe we are getting the governance we deserve?

Maybe Brexit / Trump (Ffs) is the start of that re-engagement? Albeit gone horribly wrong

It was a post midnight special again ☺ Did the miners strike get a mention??

There is no British Empire any more to speak of, so I for one fail to see how, for example, someone accepting a peer nominated award for services to charity, community, sport, the Government etc is simultaneously endorsing whatever horrors were committed in a far flung land by a now more or less kapoot Empire decades or hundreds of years ago.

People are wilfully getting hung up on the word "Empire" in the titles. If the nomination process and investiture ceremony remained the same, but they were called "Upstanding Citizens Awards" (or something) would people still object to them so vehemently??

This is not to say some firmly reproachable characters haven't been awarded them in the past or that there isn't an element of cronyism built in but the concept behind them is absolutely fine IMO. Also entirely understand and respect Prof Scraton's reasons for rejecting his.

[G B Young]

The last time I looked Britain has dragged Scotland out of Europe against our wishes. We will be reunited with our friends soon while Britain not including Scotland rules her waves and disappears back into the dark ages under Imerialistic British Nationalism. My French and Italian friends are delighted Scotland wants to work with them. Scotlands time has come to clear ourselves of the Evil British Nationalism and racism that blights the people you seem to admire.

Unfortunately for those who continue to bang out the mantra that Scotland has been 'dragged out of Europe', the democratic process says otherwise. There was no force applied, just an old fashioned UK-wide ballot which saw the majority of those entitled to vote decide that they wanted out of the EU. Same process as in 2014 when the majority of Scottish citizens entitled to vote decided they were happy to remain part of the UK. If you believe the polls, that would remain the preference of the majority of Scottish voters if another independence referendum were held today, so it seems erroneous to claim we're being yoked to the UK against our will.

There appears these days to be a growing refusal to accept the democratic process, be that when it comes to Brexit, Scottish independence or the US presidential elections. Those who find themselves in the minority increasingly appear to regard the result as 'wrong' on the sole basis that they don't agree with it. Had the 2014 referendum gone the other way, would those who voted to remain part of the UK have continued to bleat on for more than two years about how wrong the result was and demand another referendum until they got the result they wanted?

If we fail to respect democracy then it becomes increasingly hard to move forward as a society. Witness how our policing, our education system and our health system continues to erode while the Scottish government continues to place a second independence referendum at the heart of their agenda. It's also worth noting that nearly 40% of Scottish citizens voted in favour of Brexit, a not insignificant minority, yet their view is brushed aside - unlike that of the 45% who voted for independence in 2014 whose tiresome whining since then is given a regular airing by a government which is supposed to represent all Scots.

[NAE NOOKIE]

And yet again you miss the point

We share many similar values with lots of countries

Some of our values are more peculiar to us, such as the monarchy and the Commonwealth

Lets not forget that Britain stood alone to stand up for some of these countries after their defeat, for no other reason than it was the right thing to do.

I don't see any allowance for that but plenty carping about the empire

What I don't see exhibited in these countries is their self loathing

Britain isn't perfect but it also isn't deserving of the self loathing I see exhibited on this thread

As I keep saying if people don't like it, then the beauty of a democracy is you can change it, if you can be bothered.

Its the incessant whinging that does my head in.

One mans 'values' are another mans 'anathema' though. People may see standing at the side of a road waving a wee flag at some chinless wonder as a wonderful expression of 'British values' .... I see it as the continuation of an outdated medieval mind set that continues a ridiculous notion that some people are higher up the social ladder than others and more worthy of respect because of who they were born.

Check out any royalist page on Facebook .... the second you hint you are a republican you are invited to go and live in North Korea ( at least there the head of state pretends to get elected ) and your loyalty to Britain is questioned. This is entirely the problem with our system, where loyalty to your country and loyalty to the royal family are seen by too many people as being indivisible from each other .... that's a 'British value' I can live without. When sworn in as MPs or MSPs the candidate doesn't swear loyalty to their constituents or the country, they swear loyalty to the queen ... refusal to do so means they cant take their seat, in what 21st century democracy is that acceptable?

What bugs me about the 'British empire' isn't the fact that there was one, it was a product of its time, its the fact that modern Britain when it goes on about immigration forgets the fact that the wealth of this country was built on the back of that empire and the theft and pillage of the natural resources of the countries which constituted it. When the Ugandan Asians fled Idi Amin's regime they came to the UK because most of them were entitled to British passports, not because the British government was prepared to open the countries doors through any selfless humanitarian policy .... those people had passports as a direct result of the British empire and the contribution their ancestors made to it, something the racists who railed against their arrival conveniently forgot .... sew the wind, reap the whirlwind as they say.

As for Britain standing up for those countries because it was 'the right thing to do' ...... That is highly open to debate, by the time the Nazis had invaded Poland even the most anti war pacifist could see that a war with Germany was inevitable, if it was the right thing to do it was because if Hitler was allowed to dominate Europe unchecked Britain would inevitably be next and not only that, but it would lead to the end of the empire our wealth was based on ....... so yes, we did the right thing, but not exactly for altruistic reasons.

The internet was invented to allow folk to have a moan mate ....... suggesting they have no right to do so unless they are prepared to get actively involved in politics is ridiculous.

[McD]

The last time I looked Britain has dragged Scotland out of Europe against our wishes. We will be reunited with our friends soon while Britain not including Scotland rules her waves and disappears back into the dark ages under Imerialistic British Nationalism. My French and Italian friends are delighted Scotland wants to work with them. Scotlands time has come to clear ourselves of the Evil British Nationalism and racism that blights the people you seem to admire.


Woah, rather extreme

[McD]

Found this on my friend google

As was said before the term "great" was meant as "larger" as opposed to "lesser" Britain (which is referred to as "Brittany" in English at the present time).
-----------
It is actually a very old term, used perhaps hundreds of years before the Norman conquest. Many of the Britons crossed the channel to get away from the Anglo Saxon invasion and formed "lesser Britain". King James preferred to be called the King of Great Britain, rather than the King of England, Wales, and Scotland. Parliament at the time objected to the term, but ther king overruled him.
-----------
By the time the parliaments were united, the term was accepted as the name of the nation. When Ireland was fully absorbed, "Great Britain" was replaced with the United Kingdom.
-----------
Should Northern Ireland choose to adopt the Euro and unite with the Republic of Ireland in the future, the country may re-adopt the name, but is more likely to simply call themselves Britain.

May be bollocks but maybe not

I just don't see the reason to continuously revisit terminology that is inoffensive because the world has moved on


i always understood that the 'great' part of Great Britain was of similar use as for Greater London, or Greater Manchester.

If it was anything like as is otherwise suggested, surely it would have been Magnificent Britain, or something such like.

my understanding is the use of the word 'great' in terms of its current use (ie, that's great, etc), is relatively recent in modern language.

[ronaldo7]

Unfortunately for those who continue to bang out the mantra that Scotland has been 'dragged out of Europe', the democratic process says otherwise. There was no force applied, just an old fashioned UK-wide ballot which saw the majority of those entitled to vote decide that they wanted out of the EU. Same process as in 2014 when the majority of Scottish citizens entitled to vote decided they were happy to remain part of the UK. If you believe the polls, that would remain the preference of the majority of Scottish voters if another independence referendum were held today, so it seems erroneous to claim we're being yoked to the UK against our will.

There appears these days to be a growing refusal to accept the democratic process, be that when it comes to Brexit, Scottish independence or the US presidential elections. Those who find themselves in the minority increasingly appear to regard the result as 'wrong' on the sole basis that they don't agree with it. Had the 2014 referendum gone the other way, would those who voted to remain part of the UK have continued to bleat on for more than two years about how wrong the result was and demand another referendum until they got the result they wanted?

If we fail to respect democracy then it becomes increasingly hard to move forward as a society. Witness how our policing, our education system and our health system continues to erode while the Scottish government continues to place a second independence referendum at the heart of their agenda. It's also worth noting that nearly 40% of Scottish citizens voted in favour of Brexit, a not insignificant minority, yet their view is brushed aside - unlike that of the 45% who voted for independence in 2014 whose tiresome whining since then is given a regular airing by a government which is supposed to represent all Scots.

That'll be your kind of democracy, the kind which says a party that gets 56 seats out of 59 in a GE in Scotland, and 63 seats in a election as recent as May needs to get back in it's box and not talk about, or strive to achieve the fundamental thing that sets them apart (apart from the Greens).

Democracy is great, but only when it suits eh.

Meanwhile, they get on with the day job. Crime at an all time Low for 42 years, SNHS is the best performing in the UK, Education the top priority in the Scottish Gov.

Did I mention we're the only Gov who have a plan for Brexit.

But, look, a broken down train.:greengrin

[G B Young]

Yes and the same democracy that saw UKIP win more votes than the SNP in the last general election yet win only one seat. You can twist it any way you like but my point is that while it's never going to be perfect it's the system we operate with for better or worse. Sulking over results you don't happen to like will get you nowhere.

Anyway, each to their own when it comes to politics. A happy new year when it comes to all Hibs fans ☺

[One Day Soon]

That'll be your kind of democracy, the kind which says a party that gets 56 seats out of 59 in a GE in Scotland, and 63 seats in a election as recent as May needs to get back in it's box and not talk about, or strive to achieve the fundamental thing that sets them apart (apart from the Greens).

Democracy is great, but only when it suits eh.

Meanwhile, they get on with the day job. Crime at an all time Low for 42 years, SNHS is the best performing in the UK, Education the top priority in the Scottish Gov.

Did I mention we're the only Gov who have a plan for Brexit.

But, look, a broken down train.:greengrin


Ten years the SNP have been in power and they've *ucked it up royally. But that's ok because NOW its a priority.

Let's just ignore the damage done to all the kids who've been into and come out of their Primary and Secondary schools during that time because they'll get a second chance right enough.

Never mind the fact that Education isn't ths SNP's top priority - independence is.

[ronaldo7]

Ten years the SNP have been in power and they've *ucked it up royally. But that's ok because NOW its a priority.

Let's just ignore the damage done to all the kids who've been into and come out of their Primary and Secondary schools during that time because they'll get a second chance right enough.

Never mind the fact that Education isn't ths SNP's top priority - independence is.

The doomsday scenario it is then. Labour crisis/shambles, or pick any adjective you like and roll it out in the MSM.

More kids are going to positive destinations than ever before, but don't let that get in the way of your hatred of the SNP.

£750 million extra going towards closing the attainment gap.

Health spending reached an incredible £13Billion...A record.

90% of patients rated their SNHS care or treatment to be good or excellent. The highest rating since the survey started in 2010.

Crime at 42 year low.

Number of registered businesses now at a record 173,995 in 2016

Queensferry crossing now 94% completed and due to open on schedule in May 2017.

Renewables sources now supplying 59.4% of Scotland's gross electricity consumption in 2015 exceeding the 50% target.

83% of properties now able to get superfast broadband as opposed to 73% in 2015

504,980 vulnerable households in Scotland – including around 190,000 pensioners and over 80,000 single parents – have been protected from UK
Government cuts to Council Tax benefit.

NHS staffing reached a new record high – with 11,500 more whole time equivalent staff under the SNP.

The gender pay gap in Scotland decreased from 7.7 per cent in 2015 to 6.2 per cent in 2016. Across the UK as a whole the gender pay gap decreased 0.2 percentage points to 9.4 per cent

Scotland’s A&E performance has been the best in the UK for 20 months.

From April 2013 to June 2016 217,000 low income households in crisis have been helped to buy essentials such as nappies, food and cookers through our Scottish Welfare Fund.

In September 2016 the Times Higher Education world university rankings showed that five of Scotland’s universities were ranked in the global top 200. On a per head basis, that’s more than any other country except Luxembourg.

500,000 acres of land are now in community ownership.

This year 152,701 Higher passes, only the second time the number of passes has exceeded 150,000.

The Scottish Government announced that over the next five years 1,000 new paramedics will be trained.

I might have missed some, in fact, I'm sure I have, but we'll keep getting on with the day job instead of returning any pocket money we do get from WM.

WE'RE BUILDING SCOTLAND.

Hope you have a guid nicht, and see you on the other side.:aok:

:party:

[One Day Soon]

The doomsday scenario it is then. Labour crisis/shambles, or pick any adjective you like and roll it out in the MSM.

More kids are going to positive destinations than ever before, but don't let that get in the way of your hatred of the SNP.

£750 million extra going towards closing the attainment gap.

Health spending reached an incredible £13Billion...A record.

90% of patients rated their SNHS care or treatment to be good or excellent. The highest rating since the survey started in 2010.

Crime at 42 year low.

Number of registered businesses now at a record 173,995 in 2016

Queensferry crossing now 94% completed and due to open on schedule in May 2017.

Renewables sources now supplying 59.4% of Scotland's gross electricity consumption in 2015 exceeding the 50% target.

83% of properties now able to get superfast broadband as opposed to 73% in 2015

504,980 vulnerable households in Scotland – including around 190,000 pensioners and over 80,000 single parents – have been protected from UK
Government cuts to Council Tax benefit.

NHS staffing reached a new record high – with 11,500 more whole time equivalent staff under the SNP.

The gender pay gap in Scotland decreased from 7.7 per cent in 2015 to 6.2 per cent in 2016. Across the UK as a whole the gender pay gap decreased 0.2 percentage points to 9.4 per cent

Scotland’s A&E performance has been the best in the UK for 20 months.

From April 2013 to June 2016 217,000 low income households in crisis have been helped to buy essentials such as nappies, food and cookers through our Scottish Welfare Fund.

In September 2016 the Times Higher Education world university rankings showed that five of Scotland’s universities were ranked in the global top 200. On a per head basis, that’s more than any other country except Luxembourg.

500,000 acres of land are now in community ownership.

This year 152,701 Higher passes, only the second time the number of passes has exceeded 150,000.

The Scottish Government announced that over the next five years 1,000 new paramedics will be trained.

I might have missed some, in fact, I'm sure I have, but we'll keep getting on with the day job instead of returning any pocket money we do get from WM.

WE'RE BUILDING SCOTLAND.

Hope you have a guid nicht, and see you on the other side.:aok:

:party:


Deploy all the smoke you like, you've been in charge of Scotland for ten years and made our education system a shambles during that time. For all of those ten years Sturgeon was either First Minister or Deputy First Minister - no-one else is to blame.

Happy New Year when it comes and bloody good riddance to 2016 :agree:

[stoneyburn hibs]

That'll be your kind of democracy, the kind which says a party that gets 56 seats out of 59 in a GE in Scotland, and 63 seats in a election as recent as May needs to get back in it's box and not talk about, or strive to achieve the fundamental thing that sets them apart (apart from the Greens).

Democracy is great, but only when it suits eh.

Meanwhile, they get on with the day job. Crime at an all time Low for 42 years, SNHS is the best performing in the UK, Education the top priority in the Scottish Gov.

Did I mention we're the only Gov who have a plan for Brexit.

But, look, a broken down train.:greengrin

Like

[Hibrandenburg]

Actually I know someone awarded the MBE after giving over three decades to the Navy. They've done a damn sight more for the country than most of the people who moan and whinge about the whole thing. This country seems to turn its nose up at celebrating those who do good for the country and it's truly sad.

I've never understood why some consider those to have served in the military to be more worthy and deserving than say nurses, firemen or teachers for example. Why should they be honoured, rewarded or given preferential treatment based on their career choice?

If veterans return home injured or if they die due to injuries caused by their work, then of course their employers should be held to account and made to compensate them or their families for their loss. Other than that I see no reason for special treatment.

[Hibrandenburg]

The one thing that staggers me about this thread is the amount of posters on it who appear to hate Britain and everything we are and stand for.

You do all realise that the option to move to another country is open to you?

Good luck finding one that meets your standards!

Alternatively instead of moaning about it on an internet forum, why not get engaged in politics and try and do something about what you see as our shortcomings?

But I suppose that might take a bit of effort and its just far easier and so much more populist to just moan your tits off about the present situation.

Ah, the if you don't like it **** off post has arrived.

[Allant1981]

I've never understood why some consider those to have served in the military to be more worthy and deserving than say nurses, firemen or teachers for example. Why should they be honoured, rewarded or given preferential treatment based on their career choice?

If veterans return home injured or if they die due to injuries caused by their work, then of course their employers should be held to account and made to compensate them or their families for their loss. Other than that I see no reason for special treatment.

but then in the same argument nurses, firefighters etc have all chosen this career as well

[Hibrandenburg]

but then in the same argument nurses, firefighters etc have all chosen this career as well

I've yet to see nurses or firefighters having organisations set up to fund their futures and give them discounts on public and private services. Neither have I seen parades held in their honour. It doesn't stop at nurses and firemen though.

[Prof. Shaggy]

Deploy all the smoke you like, you've been in charge of Scotland for ten years and made our education system a shambles during that time. For all of those ten years Sturgeon was either First Minister or Deputy First Minister - no-one else is to blame.

Happy New Year when it comes and bloody good riddance to 2016 :agree:

Wash your mouth out.....!

[Allant1981]

I've yet to see nurses or firefighters having organisations set up to fund their futures and give them discounts on public and private services. Neither have I seen parades held in their honour. It doesn't stop at nurses and firemen though.

im sure there is something for firefighters, may be wrong though, granted no parades but i personally dont have an issue with that, what kind of discounts would you like them to get?

[Hibrandenburg]

im sure there is something for firefighters, may be wrong though, granted no parades but i personally dont have an issue with that, what kind of discounts would you like them to get?

You just have to Google "forces charities" and you'll get a couple of days worth of reading on the subject. I just don't get why our armed forces get special treatment or indeed why some of them even expect it. I can relate to those who land on hard times because of work related injuries/problems and they should be entitled to help and compensation from their employers.

[Allant1981]

You just have to Google "forces charities" and you'll get a couple of days worth of reading on the subject. I just don't get why our armed forces get special treatment or indeed why some of them even expect it. I can relate to those who land on hard times because of work related injuries/problems and they should be entitled to help and compensation from their employers.

you havent really answered the question, what kind of discounts woukd you like nursing staff to get, and i know what charities there are for ex service staff, there are charities for firefighters as well

[Hibrandenburg]

you havent really answered the question, what kind of discounts woukd you like nursing staff to get, and i know what charities there are for ex service staff, there are charities for firefighters as well

I didn't say I want nurses or firemen for that to get discounts and special privileges, all I said was that there's an expectancy that members of the forces should and I don't agree with that. Simply put my point is that the forces no more deserve special treatment than other occupations.

[Allant1981]

I didn't say I want nurses or firemen for that to get discounts and special privileges, all I said was that there's an expectancy that members of the forces should and I don't agree with that. Simply put my point is that the forces no more deserve special treatment than other occupations.

yes you did, as per your post earlier i suggest you look in to what is available for these groups of staff, i have been in the services and currently nhs so know exactly what is available and nhs staff are very well looked after if anything happens, and as per your post regarding discounts for these staff groups, again i suggest you look in to it as we get hundreds of discounts on things

[Hibrandenburg]

yes you did, as per your post earlier i suggest you look in to what is available for these groups of staff, i have been in the services and currently nhs so know exactly what is available and nhs staff are very well looked after if anything happens, and as per your post regarding discounts for these staff groups, again i suggest you look in to it as we get hundreds of discounts on things

No point discussing this any further if you're gonna insist I said something I clearly didn't. Kinda makes it hard to take what you say seriously if you're having imaginary conversations with me.

[Allant1981]

No point discussing this any further if you're gonna insist I said something I clearly didn't. Kinda makes it hard to take what you say seriously if you're having imaginary conversations with me.

you said you have yet to see them get discounts, i suggest you go back and check your posts before you try to be a smart arse

[Hibrandenburg]

you said you have yet to see them get discounts, i suggest you go back and check your posts before you try to be a smart arse

How the hell is that the same as me wanting them to get discounts? For what it's worth, in my opinion, those that go to work day in and day out looking after and tending to the sick, lame, injured and elderly all deserve a medal.

[--------]

And mine. Time for a Republic.

Long past time, IMO.

Have I ever mentioned that there's a perfectly serviceable decapitation device in the Scottish Museum in Chambers Street?
:chop:

Seriously, Professor Scranton is a man who shows every sign of being worthy of the very highest respect.

I would vote for him for President.